Hamas to skip Gaza peace deal signing, calls Trump’s proposals absurd: Report
Posted by GodZ_n_KingZ@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 336 comments
Funkliford@reddit
For people constantly screaming about genocide a lot of people here sure seem intent on it continuing. "But it the deal isn't fair :'(" and if ifs and buts were candies and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas. Fair's got nothing to do with it. Peace deals towards terrorists which state wars rarely are. If you sincerely believe the war is tantamount to genocide and you sincerely care about the Palestinian people than the answer should be obvious: Peace.
Of course, for that to be obvious you'd have to sincerely believe in either of those things.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
Don't blame them for thinking this way.
Trump Gaza plan is very Anti-Palestinian. They let Iraq's war Tony Blair control Gaza, Palestinian wouldn't have democratic government cause Hamas will be banned from leading the next Palestinian government and they want to make Palestinians defenless by disarming Hamas.
Funkliford@reddit
But remember, we're totally not Hamas supporters. /s
Well, you should.
Well, they can die then. Unfortunately they'll take a lot of Palestinians with them. Christ, you people would rather see Gaza destroyed than peace with Israel. How you people expect the world to care for the plight of Palestinians when their own "allies" see them as pawns to be sacrificed is beyond me.
They. Lost. The. War. The war they started by launching the single deadliest massacre of Jewish civilians since the Holocaust. Losers, especially war criminals, don't get to dictate peace terms.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
I wonder if the average Gazan agrees with you that the war should continue until Israel offers a better deal
BendicantMias@reddit
Well maybe we should journalists in there then, to conduct a proper survey. Instead of assuming we know what the average Gazan thinks - that often just happens to align with what we'd like to think they think.
Plus a host of other benefits to letting more journalists freely into Gaza...
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Current reports from within Gaza seem to show that Gazans generally want the war to end.
I can’t think of any genocides in history where the victims of genocide want their genocide to continue. Nor can I think of any genocide survivors who complain that their genocide ended too quickly. I think the same sentiment applies to Gazans.
Regarding control of Gaza, Israel has already begun carving Gaza into chunks and handing control of them to local warlords. Hamas would still survive of course, but they would just be one particularly strong warlord and Gaza would be trapped in permanent war as different factions vie for land and resources. We can see a sneak peek of that today
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-870096
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
Of course they want the war to end. Everyone wants all wars to end. The question is how they would want to see their future be determined
AVeryBadMon@reddit
You answer that question after the war is over, not during it.
ijzerwater@reddit
if the peace deal prescribes the political decision makers after the war, better to answer it during the war
AVeryBadMon@reddit
But in this case, anything is better than what Gaza has now. The political squabbling is irrelevant to the Gazans who are being killed. The best thing for Gaza right now is to stop the violence by any means, and Hamas blowing up this deal shows that they're more interested in their power than the welfare of Gazans.
sivvon@reddit
The responsibility is on Israel to stop the killing, peace deal or no peace deal. The responsibility is on Israel to end the genocide. And it’s on the international community to actually put pressure on Israel to follow international law and respect human rights.
Say it with me, the responsibility is on Israel.
Throwing a so-called peace deal at Hamas with totally impossible conditions then turning around and saying “see! they don’t want peace, they don’t care about their people” is a tired trick Israel’s been using for years.
Palestine’s not going to stop resisting under terms that only benefit Israel and push them further away from what they’re fighting for.
Why does this even need to be said? It’s pretty clear most people don’t really want to see things from both sides. Their bias shows every time.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
Yeah no, that's not how it works. Israel will always point to the fact that the Palestinians started this war on Oct 7th and that Hamas keeps rejecting deals like this to say their actions are justified... and they would be right. This is a golden opportunity where Trump is being considerate to the Palestinians, the world is consensus that this is a good plan to move forward with, and both Israel and Hamas have accepted it. If they walk out on this deal, they're the ones who are prolonging the war they started for no other reason than to cling to power for just a little bit longer at the cost of innocent lives. Israel has responsibility, but pretending its the only one at fault is delusional.
What impossible conditions? Name me a single one. This is the most reasonable and favorable peace deal that Gaza is going to get.
What are you smoking? There's no resistance. Israel de facto controls Gaza already and they're doing whatever they want with zero pushback. They're so overwhelmingly more powerful that's it's just stupid to pretend that the Palestinians even have a glimmer of hope in defeating Israel.
The issue with people like you is that you're being self righteous on behalf of the people who are actually affected by all the violence while being a comfortable distance away. It's easy to sit in your home talking about how glorious it is for Hamas to keep the war going to the last Gazan, but for the Gazans who are actually going through this, they just want the violence to stop.
sivvon@reddit
I couldn't get past you claiming the world is in consensus and Trump is being considerate to Palestinians. I'm sure it only gets progressively worse.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
It true relative to previous deals
sivvon@reddit
The consensus world wide is to stop the genocide and famine. Outside of that, there is no global consensus on the peace deal and what happens next.
You mistake me and everyone for not wanting a ceasefire. Of course, a peace deal is much more complicated and this is where there is no consensus whatsoever.
Trump, complicit in the genocide of Palestians is being generous? Do you know how foul that line is? Even now I have a bad taste in my mouth repeating it. Self righteous? My guy, whatever you are is grotesque.
YourFuture2000@reddit
You don't know the future to know if it will be better under Gaza not able to defend themselves. It would be just easier for Israel to do what they are doing right now and before. Which means taking the political rights of Palestinian away from them and their land. Just as they have been doing before the war, only that Hammas was not letting it happening freely by Israel.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
These are not at all even comparable situations.
They don't have any of those things now. What alternate reality do you live in? If they sign this deal, they still won't have these things, but at least the killing would stop and there's a pathway to achieving them in the future.
They can't defend themselves now. You have to be brain dead to think Hamas is some "resistance", they can't even scratch Israel. The only thing they were capable of in the 20 years they've been in power is some terrorist attacks on civilians. At least Trump's deal gives gives Gazans a real protection force in the form of an Arab coalition. They currently have nothing.
Do you honestly think Hamas rejecting this deal would prevent this? Hamas is powerless, they're just stubbornly clinging on to power at the cost of the lives of Gazans. Every proposal after this in the future, is going to have even less favorable terms for Gaza, and more Gazans will die in order for that to happen.
YourFuture2000@reddit
Yes, colonization and killing or kicking minorities from their land are all comparable everywhere.
Just because they don't have freedom and dignity now, it doesn't mean they don't want have it, or should not fight for it.
If a bigger man wat to fight you you will try to defend yourself even if you can not. This is why every weaker military country and society have always tried to fight beck even though they they know the chances.
In reality, for not giving up they are gaining more support and recognition all over the world. So even with they losing it will all be recognized by all how it was stolen from them, and not given away.
I think Hamas accepting or rejecting this deal changes nothing, as has been happening since the state of Israel was created. Israel never stopped to take take neighbors land and kick people from their own land.
Just like native Americans who sided with colonialists was killed and stolen by colonialists all the same.
The colonialist conflit only exist because the colonialist country want to steal land, and they never give up no matter the deal, except when they know they can not win without really serious consequence. So Israel is not going to stop no matter the deal.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
Idk what you're on about, but if you can't see a big difference between Nazi Germany invading Europe and this war, then you're too disingenuous for this conversation.
That's not for you to decide. You sound like Lord Farquaad right now, "some of you may die but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"
If you poke a bully with a stick and he starts beating the shit out of you, do you apologize to make him stop or do you keep "self defending" by getting beat to death?
Sure Gaza will be razed, it's people killed, and it'll be annexed by Israel, but hey at least Norway recognized Palestine, and that means Palestine got the moral victory... Actually delusional.
No, it does do a lot actually. First of all, it puts an end to this war, and that by itself makes it worth it. Second of all, it removes Hamas from power and puts the PLO in charge of both territories, and so Palestine will be politically united for the first time in 20 years. It also guarantees the security of Gaza via an external Arab coalition, and so there's a new buffer between Gaza and Israel now.
Where do you come up with these false equivalencies? Gaza surrendering under some favorable terms is not them siding with Israel. It sounds like you want to keep the fighting to until Gaza is completely gone because you think Gaza shouldn't make any sort of concession made during negotiations whatsoever.
And so your grand plan is to keep this war going forever? This war won't end without a peace treaty with Israel. They're the vastly superior power and they're victors in this war, they're going to define the terms of the surrender and they're going to get most of what they want. However, we have a rare opportunity where the US is pressured Israel to make some concessions and accept a deal that has some favorable terms towards Gaza, and Israel agreed. Not only that, but this deal was also endorsed by the PLO, the Arab world, and the international community. Everybody thinks it's good enough to move forward with, and Hamas initially agreed to it and started discussing how to carry out phase 1, and so everybody is optimistic. If Hamas suddenly rejects the deal and walks out, this will guarantee that any future proposal is going to be way less favorable towards Gaza than this one.
ijzerwater@reddit
let that be the Gazan's to judge
AVeryBadMon@reddit
Hard to do during an active war, even harder to do with Hamas in power. Ideally the war ends, Gaza is stabilized, and elections are held.
ijzerwater@reddit
and before that Trump has signed their rights away, and nobody speaks on their side
AVeryBadMon@reddit
And yet, this is as generous as Trump is going to get towards them. It'll all be downhill from here.
I_Hate_E_Daters_7007@reddit
I'm Gazan and I'm telling you that I would do anything to stop the bloodshed against my people
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
That would be ideal but Hamas hasn’t allowed elections for 19 years. How do we gauge the will of the Gazans? We obviously can’t take the word of the dictatorship who is currently in charge by force.
ijzerwater@reddit
its pretty hard to do elections under occupation, especially if the occupier likes to kill officials or forbids certain parties
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
No it’s not. Israel isn’t preventing people voting. The UK held elections while they were being carpet bombed by Germany. The issue isn’t logistics. Hamas has repeatedly denied Gazans the right to vote. A notable recent example is 2017.
ijzerwater@reddit
I cannot recall UK being occupied by Germany during WW II.
I can recall Ukraine partly being occupied and hence not voting
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
Gaza wasn’t occupied by Israel from 2006 until 2023. Israel unilaterally withdrew all forces and Israeli citizens (by force) in 2006. What was stopping Gaza from holding election in 2017?
ijzerwater@reddit
it was as seen by international experts as occupied since Israel has too much influence
Quirky-Cat2860@reddit
Withdrew, but sanctioned them immediately after the election.
cyberadmin1@reddit
Careful, you’re forcing them to criticize an anti-western group. This typically creates a bevy of whataboutisms and personal attacks
BendicantMias@reddit
With a survey. On Trumps' plan. I suspect Hamas will be okay with that, but Israel won't be. Especially if it means journalists get to explore what they've done.
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
We have surveys. Hamas support is down to 36%.
BendicantMias@reddit
Cute cherry picking.
First off, I asked for a survey on Trumps plan for the region. This isn't that.
Secondly, the limitations of that survey - as reported by the surveyors themselves - have already been mentioned by others here.
And thirdly even that survey has data that contradicts the narrative you're trying to peddle. The overwhelming majority oppose disarmament, and they still favor the two-state solution. There is nothing in that survey that suggests they'll be happy with a foreign colonial administration or Israeli freedom of action without resistance.
platp@reddit
Actually it is West Bank administration that didn't allow any elections. The elections being made together with West Bank, Gaza also didn't have any elections because why hold elections in only a part of the state?
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
Why can’t Gaza hold its own elections? They have different governments. What you write doesn’t make any sense.
platp@reddit
It does. 2006 elections was done in all occupied Palestine. And they were supposed to be held again in all occupied Palestine. You can't expect some part of it (Gaza) to hold elections again while the rest of it is under the control of those refusing to hold elections.
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
You didn’t answer my question so I’ll ask it again. Why can’t Gaza hold elections on its own? They have separate governments.
Quirky-Cat2860@reddit
They have separate governments because the PLO refused to accept the results of the election. This caused fighting between Fatah (the biggest party in the PLO) and Hamas, and resulted in the division we see now - Hamas gained control of Gaza and Fatah of the West Bank.
platp@reddit
Because Palestine is one.
jaynic1@reddit
Not sure legally by morally that’s not an excuse to govern a people for nearly two decades with them having no choice in that. They should have held elections either way.
platp@reddit
Presumably they wanted to. But why should they do that when they can't make hold the elections in all Palestine? Why only risk losing control of Gaza, Palestine and not have the opportunity to gain control in West Bank, Palestine?
Also Palestine has been under occupation for about 110 years now. Holding fair elections is less important than resisting the occupation. Or would you say it is unfair other occupied nations not to hold elections too like Ukraine?
jaynic1@reddit
They should do it because Gaza is who they govern and represent, and so Gaza should have a say in that. Gaza potentially choosing someone else other than them isn’t a valid reason to hold power, it’s bizarre you think so. In such a situation that would be Gaza rejecting Hamas.
There’s been different variations on the intensity of occupation. I do t think it should be held no but I doubt in the 19 years they’ve been in power they haven’t had the ability. I suppose Gaza doesn’t find democracy an important issue since they’ve allowed Hamas to act that way and seemingly still approved. And I don’t think the situation with Ukraine is comparable, the length of time and the intensity of the conflict is different for one. Zelenskyy hasn’t postponed elections for 19 years, and holding elections with proper infrastructure where your safety is guaranteed isn’t possible. I remember Russia bombing a recruitment center earlier. They would just do that. It’s the same as asking g why Hamas didn’t hold elections post Oct 7.
platp@reddit
No. They represent all occupied Palestine. They were elected in all occupied Palestine. They were left to only govern Gaza but that doesn't mean they have to act like Gaza is seperate from the rest of Palestine.
But Israel always bombed anywhere they wanted without a care for there being active hostility going on or not. You seem to not know this when you think anything Israel opposed wouldn't be bombed. I say this because you said Ukrainian polls would be bombed by Russia but said some part of Palestine could have done what it wanted without Israeli interference.
If you say two years of not holding elections is not unfair, then 19 years of not holding elections is not unfair either. I don't see how two years with no end in sight is a small time period. But again, if the elections are going to be held, they have to be held in all occupied Palestine. Saying the winners of the previous election who were denied governing should potentially give away their control without being able to be reelected in the whole place is ridiculous. I wholeheartedly support an election in all of Palestine.
jaynic1@reddit
I didn’t consider that it would legitimize the divide. I saw it as delegitimize the plo for refusing if anything, but you’re right
sivvon@reddit
I can't believe the guy posted so many words but conveniently left this part out. Gazans want the war to end! And the sky is blue.
But under what conditions? That's the pertinent question.
Mark_My_Morphemes@reddit
So you are confirming this is a war and not a genocide? I'm glad thats cleared up at least!
sivvon@reddit
So tiresome. You read all the well placed points and arguments and just decided to pop in with this low effort post that achieves nothing but confirm you aren't interested in a conversation. Jog along mate.
Mark_My_Morphemes@reddit
Going to copy from my other reply. It's actually a pretty important distinction (and has been for the "pro-palestinian" crowd for the last two years). Like another commenter said, it's pretty unusual to get the opportunity to stop your own "genocide." Usually people would jump at the chance. If it's a war, then hemming and hawing about the terms makes loads more sense. If you dont see the importance of that distinction, can you defend others who called this a war before a week ago? Would you not use the word "genocide deniers?" becaue you know thats been thrown around all over the place. It's important to acknowledge these discrepancies with the overall reporting and perception as they come up.
sivvon@reddit
Yes, you've hit on something that we can agree on. The Palestians are being asked to negotiate the end to their genocide with the genocidaires. The Palestinians are being asked to negotiate the end of the famine with the very people who created that famine. Israel.
Israel is committing genocide and the international community should have stopped Israel. The idea that Gaza is asked to do this is repulsive and repugnant.
We allow Israel to do this. The framework for the UN was set up post WW2 to deal with this exact situation. We are failing the palestinians and the UN and the global community is failing in its duties and its humanity.
Mark_My_Morphemes@reddit
But if Israel is willing to end this, but HAMAS is not, doesn't that mean that we should be speaking out against and protesting HAMAS, not Israel? Can we all admit that HAMAS are the reason this whole thing is happening. Not some manufactured desire to kill all the innocent civilians?
sivvon@reddit
Manufactured? Genocide denial is your position. You're a pretty gross human being.
Who said Israel is willing? They agreed to hit pause on the genocide but reserved the right to continue operations and Occupy most of gaza. Hamas accepted the hostage and aid part of the deal and the willingness to continue talking.
Complicated_Business@reddit
I'm sure the Japanese people, if they had a choice, wouldn't've agree to an unconditional surrender. But, when you're at war and the enemy is at your doorstep, and there are no other options, then it's incumbent upon the leadership to end the suffering, by whatever means necessary. Stop the bloodshed, stop the bloodfued, start rebuilding.
The-Lord-Satan@reddit
This is a bit of a false equivalence. The Japanese were forced to surrender as they would not stop fighting, not because the Allies wanted to keep fighting and were planning on wiping them out and taking all their land.
DracoLunaris@reddit
The Japanese government argued on how to surrender for months, and only did so after a combination of the USSR declaring war (they'd wanted to have them act as a neutral party in the peace talks), the USA confirming that they would not execute the Emperor (which was the main concession the non-unconditional surrender party wanted wanted) and the nukes all happening the span of a week.
The-Lord-Satan@reddit
That is as may be, but the Japanese didn't have to live under quarantined conditions as second class citizens whilst being turfed out of their own houses by settlers who repeatedly lynched, robbed, and demonised them for 70 years before there was any meaningful international recognition of their situation.
DracoLunaris@reddit
Not arguing that point, just being pedantic about japan
The-Lord-Satan@reddit
I respect it x
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
Why would a Japanese person want an unconditional surrender for their own country?
sandpaperedanus777@reddit
The difference is the japanese were the perpetrators - for all their faults, the allies were far less bloodthirsty than the axis.
With the Palestinians, they are the victims - waving a white flag without garnishing enough failsaves would allow the Israelis to continually chomp away at their sovereignty and rights.
sivvon@reddit
I see your point but I don't think this is the same situation. The bomb isn't being dropped, it's not a world war. An entire framework was setup post WW2 to deal with this.
It's Israel, with pure military dominance who is committing genocide. The international community has the ability to stop this. Say what you will, but Palestine, outside of terrorism is no existential threat to the state of Israel in its current form. The power dynamics are completely asymmetrical.
Mark_My_Morphemes@reddit
So you are confirming this is a war and not a genocide? Im glad thats cleared up st least!
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
Oh you got me! Semantics are the best and most convincing way to win an argument! 🤪
Mark_My_Morphemes@reddit
Uhhh its actually a pretty important distinction (and has been for the "pro-palestinian" crowd for the ladt two years). Like a commenter above said, it's pretty unusual to get the opportunity to stop your own "genocide." Usually people would jump at the chance. If it's a war, then hemming and hawing about the terms makes loads more sense. If you dont see the importance of that distinction, can you defend others who called this a war before a week ago? Would you not use the word "genocide deniers?" becaue you know thats been thrown around all over the place.
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
Aight 👍
BendicantMias@reddit
I said a proper survey, not 'reports'. And also not conducted by Israel - we need fully independent foreign journalists and surveyers inside Gaza.
I'll add that the question should NOT be a disingenuous 'do you want the genocide to stop?'. Of course anyone will say yes to that, the issue is how much they're willing sacrifice for it. So the question should be if they're happy with Trumps' setup. Better yet, break it down point by point and see if each of them have the support of the people there, or which ones don't.
Holding a gun to someone's head and asking them if they'd like to keep living is a pretty empty question. Holding a gun to their head and demanding the whereabouts of their children or else you'll kill them will yield a VERY different answer. Most people will say yes to the first, but plenty will choose death over giving you what you want in the second.
So I repeat - let the world's journalists in, and ask them about the offer on the table. Not IF they want the genocide over, but HOW they want it over.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
The problem here is that Gazans are not in a position to dictate terms. And I’m not saying “ohhh Israel is morally right and these terrorists don’t get to have a say” I mean they are literally physically incapable of changing the situation without Israel or America’s consent.
I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that Israel’s plan for Gaza is much worse than Trump and Blair’s.
You are acting like Gaza’s choice is between an independent Palestinian state free from occupation and Trumpian occupation. The choice is between Netanyahu’s plan and Trump’s plan.
BendicantMias@reddit
Cool. In that case stop pretending the will of the Gazan people mean anything to you. They're not in a position to dictate terms, right? So why're you going on about how they feel then? It doesn't matter, except insofar as it might prove convenient for you to justify their capitulation.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
It’s strange that you say that because I’m advocating for the plan that gives the Gazan people the greatest ability to exert their will on their future.
When we compare the Blair plan to the Netanyahu plan, it’s clear that Gazans have the highest chance of rebuilding their society and government with some level of protection against Israel.
But please, explain how rejecting the Trump plan and allowing the Netanyahu plan helps Gazans exert their will.
Maardten@reddit
You will find that surrendering all their weapons and abolishing their government without getting a new democratic government in return does in fact not help Gazans exact their any way in the future. It only helps Israel.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
You will find that allowing Israel to raze Gaza to the ground helps Gazans even less and helps Israel even more.
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
Imagine arguing that Nazi Germany should have been allowed to keep it's government and weapons...
Knave7575@reddit
Have the weapons of Hamas helped save gaza in any way over the last two years?
thephantompeen@reddit
The only exercise in democracy that has been attempted in Gaza resulted in Hamas permanently coming to power. I would say the Gazans have permanently lost the right or expectation of being able to exert their will.
Monterenbas@reddit
But keeping their weapons and continuing the war, will help the Gazans?
BackseatCowwatcher@reddit
Funny, them getting a New democratic government is literally part of the plan, Hamas rejected it on the basis that they refused to allow any government not run by them operate in Gaza, and the plan explicitly bans Hamas from being part of said government.
YourFuture2000@reddit
Gaza people never had the right to have a will under the open prison they have been living under Israel authority.
thephantompeen@reddit
Why would it? Hamas does not govern democratically. If the de facto governing body of Gaza does not care about democracy, why should anyone else?
KaiBahamut@reddit
Because the West, in theory, would prefer a Liberal Democracy in Gaza?
sivvon@reddit
Understand they are willing to die for their freedom. The onus is on Israel to stop the genocide. Not the people having genocide committed against them. The onus is on the USA and the international community to uphold international law and human rights.
The onus is on trump to not put a shit peace offering in front of the two sides that clearly is untenable and was written with and favours Israel.
There is so much blame to go around here and it doesn't land at Hamas feet first.
If this was Americans we would first of all understand it, secondly we would make 500 movies glorifying the resistance..
YourFuture2000@reddit
Trump and Blair are the Israel plan in Gaza. Israel literally live from American tax payers.
SgathTriallair@reddit
The issue is that the war ending doesn't end the genocide. What Israel was doing to Gaza before the war was genocidal as well, it just was slower and quieter. People choose to become terrorists because they know that they will be killed either way and would prefer to die in a way that hurts their attacker.
Bloaf@reddit
https://pcpsr.org/en/node/997
A majority of Palestinians opposed disarming Hamas even if it would end the war (64% opposed in Gaza) as of May this year.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Well... Yeah?
It's not really much of a war, it's an extremely one-sided slaughter so they obviously want that to end.
Giving Israel everything they want (apart from the total annihilation of the Palestinians) doesn't really aid that.
Cavalleria-rusticana@reddit
Not too many lining up to be 'accidently bombed' by IDF.
I_Hate_E_Daters_7007@reddit
Any layman will tell you that you don’t need a survey to know how a population living through genocide feels about ending it
718Brooklyn@reddit
Exactly this.
You can’t focus on saving your nation, creating government, building your infrastructure, when everyone is starving and there are foreign soldiers occupying the entirety of your home.
Accept the ceasefire. Get rid of Hamas. Let your citizens eat and end the slaughter.
BendicantMias@reddit
I asked for a survey on Gaza's future, 'Palestinian'.
Holding a gun to someone's head and asking them if they'd like to keep living is a pretty empty question. Holding a gun to their head and demanding the whereabouts of their children or else you'll kill them will yield a VERY different answer. Most people will say yes to the first, but plenty will choose death over giving you what you want in the second.
So I repeat - let the world's journalists in, and ask them about the offer on the table. Not IF they want the genocide over, but HOW they want it over.
I_Hate_E_Daters_7007@reddit
Are you slow or something? I told you that the stop of the killing is the most important thing, no matter how it ends, the most crucial thing is that it must end
should_be_sailing@reddit
The PSR already does surveys from within Gaza. Last one was in May, hopefully there's another soon.
CompetitiveSleeping@reddit
How do you even make a remotely reliable survey under those conditions?
should_be_sailing@reddit
True, there are limitations.
"To ensure the safety of our data collectors in the Gaza Strip, interviews were conducted with residents in areas that did not witness armed clashes and whose residents have not been displaced or returned after being displaced, especially after the recent ceasefire during the first three months of this year."
You just have to take the results with that in mind.
12bEngie@reddit
Interviews were conducted with people insulated from the war? Ok bro
should_be_sailing@reddit
You want them to go into active combat zones?
waiver@reddit
lol what area would that, some people have been displaced up to a dozen times already.
should_be_sailing@reddit
Not sure. It says past polls were done in Khan Younis and Rafah. Might be why it's been so long since the last one (they are usually published every ~ 3 months)
wandse@reddit
Well Khan Yunis and Rafah have been razed to the ground in Israels war of extermination. So I guess they'll have to find other places that still exist to conduct their surveys
UnfortunateHabits@reddit
So they're useless
Montana_Gamer@reddit
Imagine having data accurately express its limitations, something that should ALWAYS be done by any decent analysis, to only then have people say its useless.
platp@reddit
Expressing the limitations does make the data more transparent. It doesn't not make it useless.
The data can be useful or useless but expressly stating its limitations has little to do with it.
Zellgun@reddit
Yeah, the Ukrainians can also stop the war in their own lands if they just surrendered and accepted the annexation, ended their NATO/EU ambitions and allow the proliferation of the Russian language again
RandomGenName1234@reddit
No, Western powers have put a stop to that a few times now.
NetworkLlama@reddit
Western powers have zero ability to stop Ukraine from surrendering. They can certainly push for not surrendering, but Ukraine could end the war on Russia's terms if they wanted. But they don't. A majority want a negotiated end to the fighting, but not a complete surrender, which is what Russia is basically demanding.
In February 2022, no one outside Ukraine thought they would last more than a couple of weeks, maybe a month. No one thought that the Russian bear was as old and decrepit as it turned out to be. And no one expected Ukraine to not only stop the advance but to push much of it back, taking back most of the lands in the north and pushing Russia out of the bulk of Kherson.
The Russian proposal in Istanbul would have left Ukraine utterly defenseless against a future Russian invasion. They demanded that Ukraine relinquish control of the entire Donbas region (including land that Ukraine currently holds); that Ukraine declare permanently international neutrality; that Ukraine never enter into any international military alliance or allow the presence of foreign forces on its soil; and limiting its military to 85,000 active and 15,000 reserve troops, 342 tanks, 1029 armored vehicles, 519 artillery pieces, 96 rocket launchers with a max range of 40 km, 96 anti-tank guns, 147 mortars, 333 anti-tank missile launchers, 190 surface-to-air missile launchers with a max range of 75 km, 119 anti-aircraft guns, 608 MANPADs, 50 combat aircraft, 52 support aircraft, 10 combat helicopters, 25 support helicopters, 2 warships up to 3200 tons, and 20 small boats.
To put that in perspective, they would have a smaller military than Spain to cover an area 20% bigger with zero backup and the presence of hostile borders. Ukraine suggested more viable numbers of 2-4 times the Russian demands in the negotiations, but Russia outright refused to accept them. Russia would have left Ukraine with almost no ability to rearm while giving itself a chance, and then could have manufactured a complaint and used it to justify a new incursion that Ukraine would be even less likely to be able to fight off than the 2022 invasion.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Nah cmon, get real.
If that was true then Ukraine and Russia would've signed a deal in the first few days of the war.
You think the Western propaganda is true? Russia are drawing this out, down to the last Ukrainian just like what Western liberals want.
This is a NATO proxy war after all.
They're losing but okay.
What reason would they have to invade in the future? Don't just give me a handwavy bullshit answer please.
Which is exactly what the people there want and have wanted for a very long time.
Is democracy not good enough for you?
Extremely fair, more than fair even.
Again extremely fair.
Is that really such a bad thing? They obviously have not used that military for good as they were very busy doing some rather heinous things in the east of the country, straight up bordering on genocide, or being genocide depending on who you ask.
Why would they need a bigger army if they're not constantly poking the bear and being used as a NATO pawn?
Well, they do hold all the cards so why would they relent on their already quite fair terms? Also where did you see these terms, I didn't think they were made public.
NetworkLlama@reddit
If Ukraine was willing to surrender in those first days, Zelensky would have accepted US offers to move him to a safer location. Instead, he replied on February 22, 2022, "The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride." The people of Ukraine did everything they could to make the Russian invasion difficult, whether it was actively fighting or just tearing down road signs and giving bad directions.
The rest of your comment is about discarding the will and rights of the Ukrainian people to live independently and to ally with those they choose rather than submit to the will of the more powerful neighbor. It seems hypocritical of you to do that while arguing elsewhere that Israel is wrong for conducting the war in Gaza.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
They were, there was talks pretty much immediately because Russia clobbered them so hard.
Congrats, you fell for the actor acting.
Cmon man...
This isn't the days of road maps anymore, you moved past those in the US, right?....
EugeneStonersDIMagic@reddit
Everything is fair in this scenario for someone who thinks Russia was in the right to invade their brother nation in a war of conquest.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Direct quote me saying that.
EugeneStonersDIMagic@reddit
Just say it out loud: you want to kill Ukrainians until they submit to Russian demands.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Just admit I didn't say anything like what you pretended I did.
Or do what you're going to actually do, keep deflecting because I called you out on your rather disgusting lie immediately.
EugeneStonersDIMagic@reddit
Please directly quote me.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Pretty sus thing to say.
EugeneStonersDIMagic@reddit
Bro are you fucking high?
RandomGenName1234@reddit
You said directly quote you, I did.
Are you not a fan of strawmen perhaps? Or is it only when it's used against you that you're not a big fan?
EugeneStonersDIMagic@reddit
I'm not a fan of fucking hypocrites and I am talking to one. You seemingly don't have it in you to see that about yourself.
EugeneStonersDIMagic@reddit
Receipts, please.
And, let's see more Instanbul in April of 2022.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Oh I see, you already know but reality isn't good enough for you?
EugeneStonersDIMagic@reddit
What else you got?
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Just say it loud and proud, you want to fight Russia down to the last Ukrainian.
EugeneStonersDIMagic@reddit
Ah, so you don't have anything else?
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Go on, say it.
EugeneStonersDIMagic@reddit
You got jackshit and you know it.
Stop pretending Ukrainian don't have a say in their own sovereignty.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
The Ukrainians feel that their armed forces are effective at preventing Russian troops from taking their territory and killing them, yes the Russians do still take territory and still kill Ukrainians but they can’t just walk into Kyiv and start bulldozing buildings and shooting random civilians.
In Gaza, Hamas is incapable of protecting Gazans. Israel can send troops into any part of Gaza at any time and do whatever they want.
What purpose do Hamas weapons serve? Do they protect Gazans from Israel? Do they repel airstrikes? Do they stop Israel from taking territory?
Adunaiii@reddit
There was no annexation in the March 2022 Istanbul peace talks. Putin was prepared to betray not just the Donbass republics but even Crimea.
The Ukrainian men get brutally abducted and tortured by their government in broad daylight. They have zero say even on their immediate bodily autonomy and health, let alone on the armed forces or politics. What you're saying is literal delusion at this point.
Democracy is a meme anyway. Hamas translates as "terror" from Hebrew.
BackseatCowwatcher@reddit
Well a couple days back Israel pulled out of one part of Gaza and Hamas came outta the wood work to round up Palestinian civilians there, accuse them of being Israeli spies or taking aid from Israel- and execute them on the spot.
I think that says what purpose Hamas weapons serve well enough.
DrunksWGuns4Life@reddit
Wow man. I've been watching this dumb shit all my life. It is just never going to get better.
geoff04@reddit
Considering they've been at each others throats since the 1950s, yes.
They are generations deep in their animosity towards each other. Any time I see "tHe wAR iZ oVEr" I laugh, and tell myself they're just on vacation.
I_Hate_E_Daters_7007@reddit
I'm from Gaza and I'm telling you that the general sentiment here is that this genocide must end at any cost ,if you pay enough attention to the sequence of events then you will realize that as time passes, each new agreement becomes worse than the last... For example, back in March this year there was a far better deal than the current one...at that time there were no GHF sites to negotiate over, no Morag corridor to dispute , a much smaller portion of Gaza was occupied, thousands more people were alive and tens of thousands of buildings were still intact
Ok-Warning-7494@reddit
Are you actually from Gaza? How did you leave out the Israel violated the January ceasefire unilaterally.
Any discussion about what Palestinians or Arab mediators should do that doesn’t consider that Israel has proven itself to be fundamentally dishonest is shortsighted.
Especially regarding surrendering weapons.
AlashMarch@reddit
I love how people want to care about the genocide victims so long as their voice doesn't count. When they do speak up, just deny deny and deny
Ok-Warning-7494@reddit
Dumb. What am I denying? I asked a question and explained why I asked it.
It’s pretty straightforward. Hamas agreed to the last ceasefire; Israel violated it.
How does that support the claim that Hamas agreeing to all of the conditions in this ceasefire will lead to a better outcome for Gaza?
Or what should I not ask questions? Should I turn off my brain when a commenter claims to be from Gaza.
AlashMarch@reddit
It's very obvious based on their comment history that they are Palestinian.
Ok-Warning-7494@reddit
Ok. I’ll take your word for it. I don’t read people’s comment histories, generally. What are you up in arms about?
I asked a question and I explained why I asked it.
You’re reaching.
cmonnomorework@reddit
Yep hamas will kill every last gazan there but so many hamas bootlickers support them
shadeandshine@reddit
You make the assumption even if signed Israel will stop and won’t brake the deal.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
I’m sure they’d agree that Israel should agree to a better deal at least.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
I’m sure they want a plan that ends the occupation entirely, links West Bank and Gaza, and removes all the settlements. And of course we can’t forget right of return.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
That sounds reasonable to me
AVeryBadMon@reddit
Yeah, that's not going to happen. History has shown that every time Palestinian reject a peace deal, the next one will always have worse terms for them.
YourFuture2000@reddit
I have been there and I know the avarege citizens in Gaza don't want war but they don't want lose their land either.
Just settler colonialist Israely don't want war either, but they want kick Palestinian out of Gaza for the Israely settle in.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
That’s why Israel went through all the trouble of removing everyone, including corpses in 2005 right? Just to steal back land the had already annexed? Nice fan fiction
YourFuture2000@reddit
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has publicly and repeatedly stated opposition to the establishment of a Palestinian state and has made clear statements regarding Israeli claims to land in the West Bank and other territories Palestinians hope will become part of a future state. During a visit to the Ma'ale Adumim settlement in September 2025, Netanyahu said:
...and further,
These statements were made in the context of advancing settlement expansion plans in the occupied West Bank, which directly undermine prospects for a contiguous Palestinian state and clarify the Israeli government's intention to maintain or expand control over land that is internationally recognized as occupied Palestinian territory.
Sources:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/there-will-be-no-palestinian-state-pm-signs-plan-cementing-e1-settlement-expansion/?utm_source=perplexity
https://www.euronews.com/2025/09/11/there-will-be-no-palestinian-state-israels-pm-says-as-he-signs-west-bank-settlement-plan?utm_source=perplexity
https://abcnews.go.com/International/netanyahu-vowsthere-palestinian-stateahead-meeting/story?id=125489981&utm_source=perplexity
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
That’s not Gaza is it?
YourFuture2000@reddit
No. Palestinia.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Ok, so not Gaza
YourFuture2000@reddit
The deal in Gaza has to do with palestinia.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Palestina as in the Roman times?
PureImbalance@reddit
So they do want war don't they
YourFuture2000@reddit
No, they want paslestines to surrender. Especially because war has made them to lose most of the international support they used to have before.
Boris2509@reddit
"do you want a quick or slow genocide" ass question
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
One major aspect of the Trump plan you might be missing is that Israel doesn’t govern Gaza in it.
No one has credibly argued that Tony Blair committed genocide in Iraq. He’s done a lot of bad things there, but he hasn’t committed genocide. Also, the Arab nations would be funding Gaza’s reconstruction and whatever you say about them, they definitely don’t want genocide in Gaza
So really, the choice is between fast genocide and something that isn’t great but it’s not genocide
Tom-Rath@reddit
This is the dumbest argument I've encountered thus far in the discourse surrounding peace negotiations.
Under the Trump plan, Israel wouldn't directly govern Gaza. Instead, it will be ruled by an unelected and unindicted British war criminal who helped to kill more than 600,000 Arabs in Iraq and who has exhibited explicit pro-Israel bias as a West Bank negotiator.
Don't pretend for one second you give a shit about Gazans. People like you are sick.
chinomaster182@reddit
I don't see how it's dumb. You can say it's cruel, despicable, and an opinion that should be punishable, but it's plain as day that the Palestinians have very few options on the table. Right now it's either take the shitty deal or suffer more bombing until somehow the political conditions have changed enough to get a better deal. It could easily move the other way by waiting as well, imagine for example a future where Republicans get reelected to office until 2032.
If you were a Hamas leader, would you have the guts to ask your people to wait under years of bombing and pray that things get better? How many more people are going to die?
Amphy64@reddit
The bad things would be war crimes, so basically, everything short of genocide.
Palestinians don't like him, so that should be it. Pick a Palestinian grandma as a representative for each region (are there even any women involved with this Neocolonial council).
Cynixxx@reddit
First of all it's not a war, it's a genocide and Isael will continue anyway because their plan is Greater Israel
MrTatyo@reddit
"war", you mean the genocide?
Totoques22@reddit
No I will blame them
You delusional apologist will excuse Hamas backing out of a peace deal and putting even more Palestinian lives at risk for the dumbest reasons, Israel will win, it’s just a matter of time at this point
Firecracker048@reddit
Its already starting lol Dont worry, them backing out will also be blamed on Israel as well.
Zipz@reddit
Crazy the guy you replied to is the only admin still active on this sub
Dude pretends to care about Palestinians even while ignoring their wishes
The only people against this are Hamas and their fans.
The mask is fully off with the guy
flossdaily@reddit
Honestly, seems like the only way to care about Palestinians is by ignoring their wishes:
Palestinians want to be ruled by Hamas. Except for a very tiny dusting up pulls to the contrary, every pole for the past 20 years has said that Hamas is the most popular political party. They can't even have elections in the west bank, because Fatah would lose out to Hamas.
They're also a martyrdom culture. They want their children to die fighting Israel.
I don't think there's a way to genuinely help these people that does not first involve imposing a government that goes against their will ... and then deradicalize them until what they want is something other than death for their kids.
viaJormungandr@reddit
Uh, when was the last election Hamas allowed? I don’t think you can claim denying Hamas a seat at the table is denying Palestinians a democratic government when Hamas is why they currently don’t have a democratically elected government.
Or is Hamas the kind of government that Palestinians actually want?
Firecracker048@reddit
Seeing "if hamas can't run for government its undemocratic" after we have almost 20 years of their rule and seeing the results hurts my brain. I can't imagine some people actually think before typing it out.
The fact it is the most upvoted comment here is just wild.
Blue_boy_@reddit
i feel like this user is almost always somewhere at the top of the comments on posts concerning gaza on this sub. and from what i remember they're usually quite questionable takes if you ask me...
lacyboy247@reddit
He is a mod of this sub and I believe he has many alts too.
BackseatCowwatcher@reddit
By polls from PCPSR, Hamas is in fact the government they want- likely to win a landslide victory in Westbank were they to have an election there-
and only losing support to the PIJ, AAMB, PFLP and other Hamas aligned groups with similar goals in Gaza because it’s perceived as losing the war there.
meister2983@reddit
Not in recent polls. In Gaza at least if someone other than Abbas represents Fatah, it would be a close election. With massive boycotting.
https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/997
kimana1651@reddit
Thai sub celebrates far right groups being banned in Europe all the time. But far right groups in the Middle East? Well that's just democracy, can't ban those!
layland_lyle@reddit
Exactly what part of bad for the Palestinians?
TheoriginalTonio@reddit
Probably the part where Israel doesn't get dissolved to give Palestinians an independent state in all of the land.
718Brooklyn@reddit
Dissolving Israel 😒
They have the second biggest tech hub outside of Silicon Valley. They have a world class Air Force and a ton of nukes.
It is a country of 10,000,000, including 2m or so Palestinians.
Their country has as much a chance of being ‘dissolved’ as yours.
TheoriginalTonio@reddit
And yet a surprising number of people are somehow convinced that this is actually on the menu if they keep up the "resistance" for long enough. 🤦♂️
layland_lyle@reddit
Why should Israel be dissolved and there is a part that gives Palestinian statehood.
If you think all of l Israelis/Jews should be cleansed from the land that they have inhabited for thousands of years, then you are nothing more than an extremist far right genocide supporter.
TheoriginalTonio@reddit
Hold on bro, I'm on your side!
What I meant was, that this is probably the part that is pissing these guys off.
layland_lyle@reddit
Sorry, didn't see you weren't the OP
vuddehh@reddit
I tought this sub was all for one sided deals? Well atleast when its Russia giving the shitty deals, everyone says Ukraine should sing it, since its better than getting attacked by imperialistic shithole country. Whats the difference here?
Frosty-Perception-48@reddit
Tell that to the people of eastern Ukraine who were killed by neo-Nazis simply because the US already considered all of Ukraine to be its property.
EugeneStonersDIMagic@reddit
What about the hundreds of time more Donbas men press ganged in the Spring of 2022? Stugna food, all of them. Where is your concern about those Russian speakers?
jjonj@reddit
Are you seriously saying that two almost evenly matched fighters not being able to come to an agreement is the same as someone holding a gun to an Quadruple amputee with a toothpick?
vuddehh@reddit
No, what im saying is that the same people who've been saying that Ukraine should take take any deal that Russia gives them, even if it means thath Ukraine has to demilitarize and leave it self defenseless against a new attack from Russia, are now saying that Palestinians shouldnt take any deal that doesnt suit them. Just trying to point out the blatant hypocrisy that some people in this sub have.
jjonj@reddit
Can you provide a single person with both those beliefs?
This is an incredibly niche /r/UkraineRussiaReport take
vuddehh@reddit
Bendicatmias for starters. And there is alot more, u/1darkstarrynight is another great example, then there was mundane_emu but he got banned but is most likely spreading his tankie shit with another account. But most of the tankies goes under this gategory, hide their comments so kinda hard to give many other examples.
No it isnt? Just go under any u/1darkstarrynight post about Russia and check what he's saying there. And if you get to the thread at a right time, you can see that people actually upvote him here.
jjonj@reddit
And is this u/1darkstarrynight in the room with us right now?
Zipz@reddit
And just like that
You ignore the guy pointing it out
EugeneStonersDIMagic@reddit
You are so close to understanding...
Amphy64@reddit
From the UK, this is actually something to do with us, Russia wouldn't especially be if America wasn't obsessed. Ukraine can do what it likes, but this is our Neocolonial mess.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
You've been reddt too much, the brain rot is starting to get to you.
And yet, it's the best proposal Gaza will ever see.
And? Tony Blair is not the next government, he's just going to be on a board that will transfer authority to the PLO and a coalition of Arab countries.
They're ruled by a tyrannical terrorist organization that doesn't hold elections. They already don't have democracy.
That's a good thing.
Hamas is already armed, how's that working out? Are they defending Gaza right now from Israel? Actually delusional.
Of course it benefits Israel, they're the victors of the war. They won, and therefore they're going to define the terms of surrender for Gaza. This was always going to be case. However, Trump was so desperate for a Nobel peace prize that he actually tried being mildly considerate to Gaza and it's people. That's the best deal Gaza is going to get, every proposal from now is going to include more Israeli demands and less consideration for Palestinians.
Zer_@reddit
Putting a War Criminal in charge of Gaza is not "the best proposal" fuck off man.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
That's already the case now. Gaza is already being ruled by war criminals. At least under this deal the fighting would stop and countless Gazans would be spared a horrific death.
Dark1000@reddit
Do you actually care about their lives or not? This deal is in place, fighting stopped. Anything that reverses that is a worst case scenario.
Zipz@reddit
War criminals are in charge of Gaza now
You must of missed that
redditing_away@reddit
It is if the alternative is the continuation of the previous approach. Gaza is in no position to dictate terms and those are the two offers at hand.
Take it and hope for the best from your Arab allies and the PA who are supposed to do the heavy lifting or leave it and continue to build your castle in the sky whilst Israel razes everything around you.
How anyone pretending to care about the Palestinians be against this deal is truly beyond me. Realpolitik is the keyword here, not some unrealistic fantasy of what would be fair/just/whatever.
Zer_@reddit
Well see, the plan was designed to be unpalatable to Palestinians from the get go, that much is clear. The fact that you don't see that is not my problem.
redditing_away@reddit
How exactly is it unpalatable then if their Arab allies and the PA are on board? Again, the Palestinians have no leverage and no choice. It's either that, as flawed as that may be from your perspective, or the continuation of the last two years.
Zer_@reddit
Arab allies? Which ones? They all like to pay lip service to the Palestinian's cause while making back deals with Isreal.
redditing_away@reddit
Well it's either them or no one, so I'd guess better not to alienate them don't you think? You have to work with what you have, not what you want.
The plan does offer a roadmap towards a Palestinian state, which is what they want all along. But for that to function there needs to be both the infrastructure and the institutions to carry it, both of which won't just spring up over night. Which the plan also addresses, hence the period of oversight and assistance, mostly from other Arab nations I might add.
That's just not true. But sure, if Hamas stages another October 7th despite the implementation of the plan, all bets are probably off.
No, that is the alternative if they don't accept that plan. There is no option C and there won't be a better offer if they reject it. Take it and work towards a better future or everything goes back to what it was in the last two years. Those are the two options.
Again, you have to work with what you have, not what you want to have/think you deserve/etc.
Zer_@reddit
So putting another war criminal in charge of Gaza is really it for you. I'm glad you're happy. I suspect this is a recipe for disaster but you do you man.
redditing_away@reddit
Since you seemingly have no arguments at all, yes - putting Blair in the oversight (!) committee alongside several Arab nations overseeing the Palestinian Authority governing the Palestinians in Gaza is infinitely better than the continuation of the status quo.
You're complaining that the Palestinians are offered a solid pizza instead of five star fine dining, when the alternative is a moldy slice of bread and a rotten apple. You do you, but don't complain if your tummy hurts after your rather poor choice of meal.
HamunaHamunaHamuna@reddit
That's one way to put "essentially becoming slaves".
redditing_away@reddit
Thankfully cooler heads than yours have prevailed so far because your utter and bat shit drivel painting an entire country could also be applied to the Palestinians.
Good luck further alienating the few allies the Palestinians have in order to bite the very hand that feeds them because you just can't get enough.
Take your victories where you can and build upon them.
HamunaHamunaHamuna@reddit
Except there's literally nothing in this for the Palestinians. They will lose everything. And some of the worst people you can find will essentially privately own them. Build on it? Sure Mr. half-glass full.
AlashMarch@reddit
Given the alternative is an active genocide, I would say this plan is the best of a no-win senario. Hamas is unable to protect its populace anymore, it has lost the right to govern.
Zipz@reddit
Just like always showing you don’t care about Palestinians
You don’t want the war to end
You don’t want Palestinians to stop dying
You want israel to lose
Your priorities are fucked up
Knave7575@reddit
So you think that the best thing for Palestinians is to restart the war?
sf3p0x1@reddit
Flumpf's plan for Gaza feels a lot like the Treaty of Versailles that was forced upon Germany at the end of WWI, and we all know how that worked out.
At least, we should.
HockeyHocki@reddit
"The deal that stops the 'genocide' only benefits Israel"
At what point do you look in the mirror and realise you're every bit as evil as Hamas. Happy to let the slaughter continue just preserve your terror cult
agentchuck@reddit
This is reminiscent of the Ukraine Russia negotiations. Trump sees Israel as more powerful so has collected a set of conditions to end the bloodshed that Israel and other players agree to. But he hasn't bothered to get conditions that Hamas would agree to, because he considers them as losers already. I don't think he fundamentally understands a group actually willing to fight to the last man standing.
Firecracker048@reddit
So banning Hamas, who took control, then eliminated elections to turn Gaza into an Islamo-fascist territory is undemocratic? What?
Complicated_Business@reddit
It's called an unconditional surrender. It's very common in wars in which one side loses decidedly. It's a responsible thing to do protect the citizenry from further abuses of the conflict. Hamas must disarm.
Monterenbas@reddit
So what’s the alternative for Hamas? Keep fighting?
Sometimes, a bad peace is better than a good war.
MC_chrome@reddit
Please point me to the last election Hamas had….wait, it was before the iPhone was released?
How can you make the claim that Hamas being banned from government makes the whole thing undemocratic when Hamas has never acted in a democratic manner to begin with?
ianmerry@reddit
“It’s not a fair democratic government if a party is banned by outside forces”
Vs
“It’s not a fair democratic government because the governing body isn’t democratic”
They’re not the same statement. Both can be true
OutblastEUW@reddit
bro, the only reason Palestinians are getting bombarded is because of hamas, they provide no defence, they only make it worse
No-Contribution-6150@reddit
Hamas shouldn't exist. Not sure why anyone cares about what Hamas feels is reasonable.
Ala117@reddit
Same with the idf, settlers and likud.
WillGibsFan@reddit
Excluding a literal terrorist group that has overthrown a democratically elected government in the past is not „anti democracy“
Ashenveiled@reddit
Will youu always find a reason to defend terrorist organistaion?
fun fact: after few months you guys will again say that it was israel who tanked negotiations.
Sea-Associate-6512@reddit
The amount of delusion is insane, Hamas is the type of entity that would tie a homosexual by their head to one end of a horse and their legs to another horse, and for fun split his living body apart just for who they are.
There is nothing democratic about them, they are terrorists funded by Iran, with zero regard for other people, they are idiots who are deluded into thinking death will bring them joy
minecraftbroth@reddit
In before an imbecile says "FAFO".
bathtubsplashes@reddit
Sociopaths
tohava@reddit
So what's more important? Stopping what is referred to as genocide? Or keeping the party in power? Truly a 1984-esque dilemma
IntrepidAd2478@reddit
Sounds like Hamas is already backing out of the peace deal. The likely result of this is that the war will continue at a lower level of intensity as Hamas is hunted down whenever it sticks its head up.
HourEast5496@reddit
This was a peace deal? Who are you lying to?
And znazis were not "hunting" kHuMaAs but killing every single Palestinian they could. That's the whole point of this holocaust.
UnfortunateHabits@reddit
To seriously think that, knowing they distributed leaflets before bombings, issues countless evacuation orders, is to lie trough your teeth.
70% property damage but only 3-4% population loss on a area this small, with these much munitions is a black-on-white indication of SYSTEMIC OVOIDANCE of loss of life.
Yes, unamountable amount of tragedies happened, countless war crimes even. But the numbers tells a truth you hate, because well... you love to hate jews.
Gubbinso@reddit
>To seriously think that, knowing they distributed leaflets before bombings, issues countless evacuation orders, is to lie trough your teeth.
Really think about it for a second, without bias. If EVERYONE is aware that the area is about to be bombed, why would Hamas stay there and get bombed? For that simple rationale, Israel continuing to bomb that area is just attacking civilian buildings, especially so if they bomb a hospital.
UnfortunateHabits@reddit
Jihadi martydom you dunce. Thats why.
Fucking western woke naive mofo
Gubbinso@reddit
If you genuinely believe they do this and did not get wiped out within the first few months of the war, you are hilariously idiotic. Logically, they'd leave the area. You're dumb enough believe the Israeli propaganda about jihadi martyrdom without question, you're exactly the demographic that Israel tries to reach through investing billions in disinformation and deceptive practices.
UnfortunateHabits@reddit
I don't know what you qouted here?
But thats not the Israeli propoganda even. The Israeli says Hamas keeps the population at harms way while they hide at bunkers.
ianmerry@reddit
Conflating criticism of Israel with hating all Jews is the vilest form of anti-semitism. Fuck outta here.
UnfortunateHabits@reddit
I didn't though, I just said you hate jews.
its funny YOU brought it up. Thank you for showing whats on your mind.
You could simply say you don't hate jews, but instead you let it slip... ooopsy
HourEast5496@reddit
Nazis "distributed" leaflets, gave warnings before bombing ghettos as well... did that mean holocaust never happened?
You think we have not seen videos of dropping bombs on tents, cars, civilians walking about being sniped, and your brownshirts laughing about it on videos and saying they're looking for more babies to kill?
And then bombing people who were evacuating, yeah, we have seen the videos and pics of torn up humans 🙄
Nazis said the same thing. Do you people read the same books or something?
World: Stop the apartheid, holocaust of Palestinians.
Znazis: You love to hate jews.
Ala117@reddit
And bombed them anyway.
The "oVoiDanCe oF loSs oF liFe" in question.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
This was the best deal for Gaza. Trump wanted the Nobel peace prize so bad that they he actually tried being mildly fair to the Gazans. But if they reject this then they're not going to get anything better. This was the closest moment the war has come to a close in a long time because both Israel and Hamas agreed to it. So if Hamas suddenly walks out on it, Arab countries might start bypassing them entirely and start negotiating a peace deal with Israel directly on the behalf of the PLO as the de jure government of all of Palestine.
Maardten@reddit
In what way was any part of this deal fair to Gazans?
AVeryBadMon@reddit
Well let's see:
Gazans won't be expelled out of their land
Having Israel withdraw it's military from Gaza
Israel will release 250 convicted prisoners + 1700 "detained" people after Oct 7th
Israel will allow water, electricity, sewage and other services that it provided before to resume
Will allow independent humanitarian agencies to bring aid uninterrupted
Israel will not occupy or annex Gaza
An Arab coalition will stabilize Gaza instead of Israel
Explicitly says that there's a path to statehood
Gaza will get favorable trade deals and investments from Arab countries
Gaza will be handed to the PLO at the end of the deal
Hamas members will be granted amnesty
That's about as favorable as it's going to get for Gaza. We're so many deal rejections in that things like ethnically cleansing the strip are being negotiated now. If Hamas rejects this deal, expect a few of these points to disappear in the next proposal and every subsequent proposal afterwards.
Ala117@reddit
And the west bank?
AVeryBadMon@reddit
One step at a time. Let the war in Gaza end and then focus can be shifted elsewhere.
Ala117@reddit
like how it did when they "withdrew" in 2005?
AVeryBadMon@reddit
People like you have are fundamentally anti-peace. There will never be a reality where Hamas and the Palestinians get everything they want, and Israel gets nothing or stops existing. This is all or nothing mentality is precisely why Palestine is in the position its in. Israel is the vastly superior power and they're the victors in this war, and so they will dictate the peace terms. In other words, Israel will gets its way sooner or later.
However, this is a rare opportunity where Trump is giving some considerations to the Palestinians. Things will never be this favorable again, every future proposal after this one will have less and less favorable terms for Palestine. Instead of compromising on the favorable deal, the all or mentality that Hamas has will lead them to compromise later but on less favorable terms. Not only that, but many more Gazans will die in the meantime... only to get a worse deal. It's illogical.
Ala117@reddit
The "peace" you want.
Only israel is allowed to get everything it wants huh?
AVeryBadMon@reddit
No, this is what you're endorsing. You want to keep this going at any cost.
These are not negotiations between equals, and they never will be. Israel are the vastly superior power and the victors of the war, the peace terms will always be dictated by them and they will end up getting what they want. That's just how wars work. Hamas has no leverage whatsoever outside of a couple dozen hostages and few corpses, they're not in a position to make demands. They can certainly try, but it won't go anywhere. Any favorable terms towards Gaza is going to come from either Israel itself or some international mediator.
In this case, we have a rare opportunity where the US has pressured Israel to accept a deal that has some favorable considerations towards Gaza. Trump really wants a Nobel peace prize and he's willing to force Israel to make concessions to make the peace deal happened, and you know Israel has agreed? You have the US, Israel, the PLO, the Arab world, and the international community at large all agreeing that this is a decent enough deal to move forward with. Hamas initially agreed to, and steps were taken to carry out phase 1 of the deal, but now they're suddenly rejecting the deal and walking away for no reason whatsoever besides wanting to cling on to power a little bit longer.
This rejection is going to send waves across the international community that Hamas has zero legitimacy and cannot negotiate in good faith. What will happen is that they're going to be dragged out of power regardless of what happens, whether its by Israel or an Arab coalition. However, the Arab world might bypass Hamas entirely and negotiate a peace deal with Israel directly on the behalf of the PLO as the de jure government of all of Palestine. Whatever the future deal may be or how it comes to be, one thing is for certain, it will be nowhere near as favorable towards Gaza as this deal. In other words Gaza will end up compromising even more and have more innocent Gazans will end up dying for a worse deal because Hamas doesn't want to end the war they started.
Ala117@reddit
Projecting much? you're the one calling this "peace" and endorsing it and want it to keep going at any fucking cost. i on the other hand along with human beings and Palestinians fucking oppose this unlike you.
so it gets to terrorize, genocide and ethnically cleanse as much as it likes, keep sucking that boot.
But not the west bank.
You're just a vile peace of shit who is either afraid of blaming deaths on israel for some reason or like the taste of its boots enough to start concern trolling with your bad faith drivel while ignoring your heroes terrorizing the khamas free west bank because again you're either too afraid for some to call them out or enjoy what they're doing there like how idol yinon heroically murdered Awdah and got off scott free while his victim's family are the ones receiving the punishment.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
Looks like I was right after all, you're just anti peace. You don't care about Gaza, it's people, or Palestine at large. You care more about some deluded sense of self righteousness that comes at the cost of Gazans than the actual welfare of the people there. It literally doesn't matter what the reality is or what is proposed, you will ALWAYS reject peace deals and cheer for more violence. It's clear to me that you're just a troll, and I have zero interest in continuing a conversation with someone this is disingenuous.
Ala117@reddit
Yeah i'm anti your version of "peace", like any human being should.
Yeah, you don't.
I'm not israel, tell that to them.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
I actually recognize your username now, you're always under every post on this sub about Israel/Palestine starting endless disingenuous arguments with people. I never once seen you ever admit that you're wrong when you're proven to be wrong, discuss in a civil manner when people are treating civilly, act in good faith when you're called out, or acknowledge any common ground or good points being made. You just forever double down and become more disingenuous as the argument you start drags on. So you're definitely a troll, and like I said earlier, we're done here. I have no interest in talking to you further. Don't reply to me again.
Ala117@reddit
So that means you purposely never said anything here nice showing fuck all of care Palestinians there pal.
That's funny i never seen such of you either.
Then why are you still rwplying to me huh?
And what if i did?
HourEast5496@reddit
Except all the people they forced to leave had to sign the papers that they won't be back and if they do... well we all know what Znazis do to them.
Nope! They're occupying 53% of it to make their satanic cult program come true.
Israel has kidnapped 11,000+ Palestinians in the last two years, including head of all 20+ hospitals and have raped some of them to death already, almost none of them has any charges against them, many has been starved to death, beaten, assaulted and medically tortured without proper medication to ease their pain.
All the things Znazis said they never stopped or blocked. Great.
Something they always said they never stopped but good to know how "decent" they're being now after carrying on the holocaust for 2 years.
Sure thing jane. Like they haven't done that already and always kept their promises and treaties.
Didn't knew pedo donny, zio kushnar, butcher of Iraq were Arabs.
Nope! They did not say that, and one thing they keep saying that there will not be any state for Palestine and are actively working on stealing West Bank as well. but perhaps you're getting paid to lie?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
You mean the bicches of Israel who have not allowed elections... since when?
Ahan! As if we can't tell lie from truth.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
People like you are fundamentally anti-peace. It doesn't what proposal is brought up, you will ALWAYS hate and want to see it destroyed.
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
Fundies afraid of satanists will never not be funny. "Satanic cults" don't crusade or jihad.
HourEast5496@reddit
What??? You having stroke or something?
HideousTroll@reddit
Please, given it's so bad, enlighten us with an alternative Israel and the US would accept. Palestinians are utterly fucked, they've been under genocide for two years, and it isn't gonna get better any time soon. The truth is, as long as Israel continues with American backing, things are only going to get worse.
Now, if have an alternative which will magically improve their situation, we are all ears.
HourEast5496@reddit
Yeah, because the ZNazis keep turning down every deal, keep breaking treaties, and even now they're killing Palestinians.
Trump is not as pathetic as you think he is. Everyone knew if he wasn't in the final list by the deadline, he would not have a chance to win, plus giving recognition to that woman is going to be stepping stone to attack Venezuela, given she's BFF with donny JR and MAGA cultists, fan of Trump and has asked Netanyahu for military intervention in her own country so give it a rest.
Those "countries" were helping israel to begin with. In this day and age, information is easily available. Read up Washington post new report if you're interested to know the information we had known for a long time.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
We're literally under a post talking about Hamas rejecting a peace deal...
Spare me the conspiracy theories. Trump didn't make it a secret that he really wants a Nobel peace prize, and it's very likely he's aiming to get one before his term is over. This deal was his attempt stamping his legacy, and he tried to be a little bit favorable towards Gaza and he even pressured Israel to accept the concessions. If Hamas don't take this opportunity and end the war, they'll never get a deal as favorable as this one again, and it will be on them.
They're aligning more and more with Israel because they're more reasonable than Hamas. Israel is the victor, they're the vastly superior power, and they want to include Arab countries at the negotiating table, why would Arab countries turn this down? They have zero intelligence or loyalty to Hamas. Israel will get it's way as the victor, but the Arab world is trying to get as many favorable terms for Gaza as they can. If Hamas refuses peace, the Arab countries might just bypass Hamas entirely and negotiate with Israel directly on the behalf of the PLO as the de jure government of all of Palestine. Either way, Hamas is getting dragged out of power one way or another.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
Hamas will never, ever agree to any sort of peace deal. They will keep this war going to the very last Gazan. They fear internal dissent after the war more than fear Israel now.
BaPef@reddit
Hamas fails to realize or maybe they do and just don't care that there are two roads ahead that Israel doesn't give a shit about. Down one road Palestinian Gaza exists and Hamas does not, down the other road neither exists. Israel and far too many in the world don't actually care which road they go down as long as it is one of those two.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
This is a very good way to put it. The Arab countries, the PLO, and the wider globe at large have largely endorsed a post Hamas Gaza as the path they want to see, but Hamas single handedly wants to cling on to power for as long as it can even if it means the complete destruction of Gaza. This stubbornness is the reason why the world is moving past them when talking about Gaza's future.
kjchowdhry@reddit
Replace hamas with Mileikowsky and you have the truth
AVeryBadMon@reddit
Two sides of the same coin
AuroraPo@reddit
Stop two-siding this shit and being disingenuous. Only one side doesn't want peace, and that is Israel.
Complicated_Business@reddit
Is that why Israel is agreeing to peace terms and Hamas isn't?
pseudopad@reddit
If you send me 2 bitcoins right now, I'll send you 4 back tomorrow? Come on, why aren't you taking the deal? There's no way you can lose! Why don't you trust me?!
Wow, I can't believe you turned down such an amazing deal. You must have no interest in making money.
MaestroRozen@reddit
Congratulations, you just found out how ending a war has worked for millenia. When signing a peace trraty, terms are going to be favorable to the victor and unfavorable to the defeated. And the next peace proposal isn't going to offer more favorable terms to Gaza. Hamas is hopelessly outmatched. They have no hope of achieving a decisive victory thay would give them leverage to make more demands. The only "weapon" they have that is any effective in fighting Israel is international pressure stemming from dead Palestinians. A deal like this should've been a no-brainer for anyone that even pretends to care about Palestinians - but the problem here is that Hamas doesn't want what is best for Palestinian people. They want what is best for Hamas.
AuroraPo@reddit
False zionist rhetoric. Regardless of what Hamas are or what anyone thinks of them, this deal is fucking atrocious for the Palestinians. Tony Blair of all people to run the show? Are you kidding me? Do you not know the history this motherfucker has with the people of that region? The IOF continue to occupy the area? Hamas must disarm and trust that Israel will keep its word?
Israel cannot be trusted, and this is why more was needed from the US in this deal to help ensure that it would hold, but guess what, this deal was designed to fall apart in order for the plans to continue. No sane occupied people would lay down their arms to continue being occupied.
MaestroRozen@reddit
And what good is having weapons doing to the Palestinians now? It sure as hell isn't helping them to prevent Gaza being flattened. IDF is a modern army. Hamas has no armor, no air-force, no air defense - nothing that might help them actually put up a fight against the IDF. No, what weapons Hamas has are primarily used for another purpose : killing civilians. On both sides. Even if they were allowed to keep all their weapons, they might as well be barehanded versus the IDF - the only thing a disarmament of Hamas would do is stop them from killing more civilians.
IDF is not to continue occupying the area either. They're to withdraw in phases, with international peacekeeping forces taking charge. Including aid and rebuilding effort.
No sane people who are supposedly getting genocided would get an offer to stop the genocide and say "nah, the terms aren't good enough". That's not the people of Gaza speaking. That's Hamas speaking, because they'd see every last Palestinian die before giving up power.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
We're literally under a post talking about Hamas rejecting peace...
ItsHX@reddit
the post you’re commenting on is literally about how Hamas doesn’t want this peace deal though
Firecracker048@reddit
Well thats just it. Theres never been an agreed to peace deal fully. Its always been 1st phase of a prisoner and hostage exchange and never goes beyond that because Hamas refuses anything that can diminish their power and influence over the region.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
My prediction is that Hamas will just straight up lose all its legitimacy, and Arab countries are going to negotiate with Israel directly on the behalf of PLO as the true government of all of Palestine. Hamas can kick and scream and all they want, but they'll eventually be dragged out of power either by Israel or by an Arab coalition.
Slow-Sock-335@reddit
Maybe there is no such genocide like you all like to tell yourself.
EvilNoobHacker@reddit
Are you being intentionally stupid or do you legitimately believe this?
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
The UN and so many international organization called it a genocide.
creeper321448@reddit
Even if you use Gaza's own health ministry, not even 1% of their population has died in 2 years. That isn't a genocide.
It's also pretty well known that the UN is horribly unreliable and incompetent. They don't classify the Holodomore or Indian wars as a genocide, yet they do for Gaza. These organizations aren't to be taken seriously.
imunfair@reddit
60,000 / 2,000,000 = 3%, might want to brush up on those math skills.
creeper321448@reddit
That is still not a genocide.
AuroraPo@reddit
That number is a severe undercount. The real number is probably in the hundreds of thousands, but we'll never know, because your dear Israel won't allow anyone, not reporters or aid organizations, into the hellscape that is Gaza.
It's amazing seeing real life demons like you go out of their way to justify the killing of thousands of civilians and underplay the acts of terrorism being committed by the zionists. Truly disgusting.
snarfy666@reddit
Wait you literally believe that hamas is under counting the number of dead even when they add their own casualties and the people they kill to the number?
That is next level insane.
AuroraPo@reddit
Where did I say that they're undercounting? The number itself is an undercount because not even Hamas can go through all the rubble to find the dead.
snarfy666@reddit
This is insane.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
If this was 1945 you'd be denying the holocaust.
imunfair@reddit
I honestly don't care about your various Israeli apologetics, I was merely correcting your objectively wrong statement. No one is ever going to convince you that your mental gymnastics are wrong so there's no point in arguing over the moral stuff, only the hard facts.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Now factor in the 50k births per year in the middle of a 'genocide'
imunfair@reddit
Okay, so if I murder a member of your family but someone in your neighborhood has a kid the murder never happened, solid logic.
HockeyHocki@reddit
strawman, and a bad one at that
imunfair@reddit
You should learn what terms mean if you're going to try to troll with them. Analogies are not strawmen, and we both know it explains perfectly how horrible your math joke was.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Its not an analogy, thats precisely the point. Holy shit
AngryNerdBoi@reddit
Unexpected based Irish?
2stepsfromglory@reddit
Srebrenica is considered a genocide, and "only" 8.3k Bosniaks were killed. Genocides are not based on total number of deaths, but on the intent to destroy in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, which is what has happened in Gaza.
ship_toaster@reddit
You should read more about Srebrenica than just looking up the number of victims. Consider the toll as a percentage of the population, the way victims were killed, how the people being killed were chosen, what happened to survivors.
Here is testimony from a survivor:
2stepsfromglory@reddit
Again, read the definition of genocide by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide of 1948.
So is Gaza. So was Bangladesh during the war of independence, in which "only" 4.3% of the total population was killed, because Pakistan didn't want to exterminate all Bengalis, but rather directed systematic and planned extermination as a weapon of subjugation to break their pursuit of independence. Still, is considered a genocide.
ship_toaster@reddit
The manner in which Bosniaks were targeted and killed showed the intent to destroy their ethnic group. Serbians were cruel and dehumanizing, they sought out and rounded up Bosnian men in order to murder them, they committed mass rapes. Likewise, the Pakistani army and militia showed their intent by their actions. They were cruel and dehumanizing, they sought out or rounded up Bengali and Hindu men in order to murder them, they committed mass rapes. Likewise the Hamas militants two years ago- they dehumanized and enjoyed deliberate cruelty, they sought out random Israelis to murder them and depopulate those towns, they systematically committed rapes.
Conversely, when Israel arrests a Palestinian man, he is not taken to a body-filled pit behind a building and shot. You undoubtedly have a news story about abuse in Israeli prisons bookmarked, but you don't have a story about Israeli soldiers lining Palestinian men up in front of a pit. Instead, Israel has thousands of Palestinian convicted terrorists and other prisoners to trade back. You have stories about bullets hitting children, which is horrible, but there are no stories of soldiers dismembering children with knives or raping women in the streets. Roof-knocking, evacuation zones, aid distribution- you have problems with all of these, I know, but in Srebrenica and East Pakistan, these things didn't exist. The only thing that you can point to to show intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group is some inflammatory statements by Smotrich and other far-right politicians.
creeper321448@reddit
We're effectively arguing in a sub filled with Hamas sympathizers. It's a lost cause, sadly.
You can also point to the fact that pre-Oct 7, Palestinians freely worked in Israel all the time. Construction especially was filled with them and some companies had upwards of half their workforce being Palestinian, but the national average for it was around 1/3. They were paid the same as anyone else and there wasn't much in the way of issues.
All the while, those same workers who were given jobs made the maps that helped Hamas coordinate Oct 7.
AFloppyZipper@reddit
You literally cannot find an example of a country fighting a terrorist insurgency in such a dense population, and having so few civilian deaths.
Calling it a genocide would mean that the word becomes useless, because now any conflict with power imbalance is a genocide.
AFloppyZipper@reddit
Doesn't make it a genocide, does it?
It's simply a terrorist insurgency. There's literally no more appropriate term for it.
If it was truly a genocide, it wouldn't have to be debated. Because it would mean Israel would flatten Gaza in a week instead of targeted strikes and advance notice of strikes.
LatterTarget7@reddit
What about the none terrorists? Israel has killed lots of none terrorists. Bombing their houses, levelling their neighbourhood, killing their families
AFloppyZipper@reddit
That's how insurgencies go.
Can you name a single war against an insurgency that has performed better, against such a well-founded and numerous sect of terrorists, and who are hiding behind such a dense population of civilians?
Even the US couldn't avoid civilian deaths while fighting terrorist insurgencies in the Middle East, with 100x the resources and with extremely strict RoE.
AuroraPo@reddit
Targeted strikes targeting civilians. On purpose. Yes, not a genocide, not at all.
Equivalent_Age_5599@reddit
The ICC member called it a genocide.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
Hamas doesn't care either way, they'll cling to power no matter what, even if it means sacrificing every Gazan
Morgolol@reddit
Exactly what Netanyahu intends. He didn't prop up, fund and I cite Hamas for shits and giggles after all.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
They're cut from the same cloth. The far right zionists and the Palestinian jihadists are two sides of the same coin.
AdhesivenessFun2060@reddit
The deal was meant to be rejected. Its just peacefully hand over their country to Israel and the US and hope that they dont decide to kill them all anyway.
Complicated_Business@reddit
Nonsense. If you think there's a genocide going on, anything to stop it should be celebrated. Israel is agreeing to terms that would rebuild Gaza and give control to the Palestinians. This is far from an unconditional surrender which would be the norm in any other similar conflict. Asking Hamas to disarm and relinquish power is fair and typical on such circumstances.
AdhesivenessFun2060@reddit
This is a simple view on a complicated situation. You may stop it today but what about tomorrow? Think of it this way. Someone wants to kill you and take your stuff. They agree to not kill you if you stop defending yourself. They still take your stuff and now they get to tell you what to do. And if you do anything they dont like, theyre going to go back to trying to kill you. And now you cant protect yourself. Sound like a good deal to you?
xland44@reddit
By someone you mean Hamas, right? Right?
You're right - we may have stopped war today by getting genocidal terrorists to agree to release hostages they've held for more than two years, and killing their leaders and demolishing much of their infrastucture. But what about tomorrow?
As long as Hamas remains armed or in control of the Strip, they will continue destabilizing the middle east and starting wars, endangering the lives of tens of thousands. Enough is enough.
decimeci@reddit
Yes I think they can win just by outbreeding Jews. The most important thing would be to keep relative peace to stop population drain, get some stable supply of food and just keep high birth rate. As time goes you would just become very sizable majority and it would be harder and harder to wipe you out of existance.
RockstepGuy@reddit
Yes.. clearly looking at the situation Hamas weapons have been of tremendous help, i mean they stopped Isra-... they helped defe-... well at least they kil-..
Jokes aside, seems that Hamas having weapons didn't change a single thing, other than give Israel a casus belli.
Waffles86@reddit
Great, so if the weapons don’t matter let the Palestenians have weapons. Doesn’t make a difference when they’re getting blown apart by indiscriminate air strikes anyway.
Palestenians have a right to self defense. Asking them to unarmed entirely against the army that is genociding them is crazy.
RockstepGuy@reddit
They do matter but in a negative way, since Israel can use Hamas violent resistance to defeat as an excuse to kill Gazans by the thousands.
Hamas is never gonna beat Israel in the field, that's just how it is, they can barely protect themselves, not even the Gazans, at that point wich side are you on, the people or hamas?
Waffles86@reddit
Israel is the one genociding the Palestinians. They have a right to self defense.
This is like Israel demanding Iran stop production of icbms. It’ll never happen lmao
meister2983@reddit
They do matter. They increase the death counts on both sides.. Generally that's considered a bad thing.
No, random militant groups that oppose the legitimate government (the PA) do not have collective rights to self defense.
Waffles86@reddit
That’s because the PA has no power to anyone or anything. They can’t even arrest settlers lmao.
It’s a little dehumanizing to demand an entire people be utterly defenseless against another people that are genociding them.
meister2983@reddit
They can detain Israelis in Area A. But correct, not in areas B or C.
pseudopad@reddit
if only Palestinians had a good reason to trust the US would keep their word.
But no one in the entire world has a good reason to trust the US, especially right now, so why would they?
total47@reddit
What you're basically saying is-- the only deal available isn't perfect so the Palestinians should reject it and continue dying. Nice.
Oppopity@reddit
When the only options are die or die fighting. People will choose to fight.
pseudopad@reddit
What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what the deal is when you don't trust the other party of the deal to actually keep it.
Complicated_Business@reddit
If no deal can be trusted, then the only solution is eradication of those who refuse to capitulate, no?
pseudopad@reddit
What if there was a third, trustworthy party there to ensure things happened as agreed upon? Nah, what a complete fantasy that would be.
qjxj@reddit
More than ever now since the Nobel has passed.
pseudopad@reddit
It would have been way too late even if it happened months ago. At best, this event could have come into play for next year's award.
CLOUDMlNDER@reddit
Israel has a solid track record of killing negotiators on their way to negotiations. I would be wary if I were Hamas.
Still boggle-eyed over Tony Blair's willingness to step in as temporary administrator of the region. Very clarifying for critics of Western powers though. The OG imperial age never ended, the journalists just got better at hiding at it. But this one is a fart that stays forever in the trouser cloth: Brits see the rest of the world as a place to make war and then administer in a natty suit.
Private_HughMan@reddit
I'm not. I'm baffled by others thinking it's a good idea.
bullhead2007@reddit
What could go wrong? The British famously have handled administering Palestinian affairs well historically /s
Zer_@reddit
Right? Like let's get a war criminal to manage Gaza, that's just a FANTASTIC idea.
Dude this "peace Plan" is just designed to fail from the start. What a joke.
sBucks24@reddit
The plan calls for bodies to be returned. How the fuck do they expect the bodies under rubble that Israel caused to be returned?? This plan is literally designed to fail "because Hamas is not keeping up their end". It'd be a joke if it wasn't so blatantly evil!
sblahful@reddit
Literally no one in the UK likes TB. No one thinks this is a good idea except his ego.
Amphy64@reddit
Oh, by this point I can understand why the conspiracy-minded think the powers that be pull this nonsense to make fun of us, 'we know you know'. I mean, they're not in such an elite bubble they didn't notice we, and Palestinians seemingly, hate him.
CLOUDMlNDER@reddit
It's possible that Trump is oblivious and that this sort of outcome is part of the Blair --> Starmer --> Mandelson (Blair) pipeline, and was a hoped for outcome of securing the ambassadorship for Mandelson in the first place. Not sure that anybody involved in ruling atm pays attention to popularity - - all western leaders are in the toilet in that area.
Of course the ruling class is always testing the water to see what it can get away with and this may be part of that too. He has not been idle these past fifteen, twenty years and has a huge network. He may look like a great sub-contactor for rolling out a civvie version of the Iraq postwar bootfilling scheme.
FeetAreShoes@reddit
Did you just show concern for a terrorist organization? Hamas will do what benefits thier end goal. Recently that goal has been to gain public attention and compassion. It seems to be working.
Equities4gambling@reddit
2 month old account - posting news articles from far right Indian media who have ethnically cleansed their own Muslim population in Gujrat - and made the architect of that operation their Prime minister.
The world sees you.
lostinspacs@reddit
Seems like Hamas still agrees to the first phase and are acknowledging that they won’t have a place in Gaza’s government. It’s a pretty big capitulation.
I wouldn’t want to go to that signing either. It’s nothing to celebrate and it would be hard to trust Israel.
PartySr@reddit
Yeah, at this point I'm not going to believe anything.
Every moron can come out and say to the press that they cannot sign x and y agreement. Trump is already saying that he ended the genocide and is upset that he didn't won a Nobel Prize, Netanyahu have been changing the terms for pace for the last 2 years, and now Hamas are saying that they don't want x and y.
Everyone wants to have a good position at these negotiations.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
I don't think that's the case, the parties waging the war simply don't want to end it, they can't. Hamas and the far right Israeli government are both going to be deposed and it's members prosecuted the moment the war is over. The reality is that they fear their own people more than they fear each other. At this point it's just absurd. Dozens of countries have tried just about everything to get them to come to an agreement, and every time they intentionally sabotage the opportunity. So they'll keep going as long as they could regardless of how many people die.
rece_fice_@reddit
This is the sad truth. Both Hamas leadership and Netanyahu would fall shortly after peace is achieved, so the leaders on both sides are fundamentally disinterested in peace. My heart bleeds for the lives of the innocent.
therealchappy24@reddit
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