Good faith question for libertarians
Posted by VaguePredictions@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 65 comments
I’m genuinely trying to understand how libertarian philosophy reconciles its deep commitment to property rights and individual liberty with the historical reality that, in the U.S., much of that property was acquired through violence and displacement of Indigenous peoples.
If liberty and property are the moral foundations of a just society, how do we ethically ground those concepts when the original acquisition was coercive and unjust?
Does libertarian thought address this contradiction — for instance, by advocating for restitution, voluntary reparations, or some redefinition of “legitimate ownership”?
I’m asking in good faith because I find liberty as a concept compelling, but it seems incomplete (or even hypocritical) if it rests on foundations that were never justly obtained.
Chris_The_Guinea_Pig@reddit
I don't see any contraddiction, restitutions could only be argued for if the people who stole the land were still alive, otherwise you'd only be stealing again, it's the same reason I'm not in favour of reparations.
Also stealing land and enslaving people was the norm untill great britain and then the us stopped. And still goes on in many places. Hell france takes 50% of the gold mined in niger(i think it's niger, although it might be some other country).
So forcing people to pay for the crimes of their ancestors when they were some of the few to stop and the victims would have done the oppressing if they'd had the chance doesn't seem all that fair.
DonutHoleTechnician@reddit
I look forward to you setting the example. Let us know when you have ceded your property rights to the descendants of whomever in history had clean hands.
VultureBlack@reddit
Libertarianism belive in individualism . E.g an individual is accountable for their own deeds. So if a individual steals land then it is that individual who is guilty not his children or great great great great grandson. The problem with this sort of retroactive justice is it is based on collective culpability. The idea that based on arbitrary traits you can be found guilty. Such a system would naturally disadvantage minorities. Could you imagine a black guy commiting a crime and indeed of finding that guilty black guy people just lynch a random black guy? Could you imagine a native Indian scalps a whire woman and then a white mob murder a whole town of Indians. Well thats how justice under your premise worked and it didnt work out well for natives or blacks. In our current system native Americans have as much right to land as any other man. If a native wanted to they could buy up land and make a native american town.
Another problem with collective culpability is it is a perfect vector for passing down anxiety blood fueds. Europe has plenty of examples of this. One is the Serbians and the Albanians. During the Ottoman expansion into Europe thousands of Serbians abandoned their lands to escape the horrors of life under Ottoman rule. This meant miles of prime land was left vacate and the Ottoman officials encouraged muslim converts to occupy the land. Now the Servians very forgot about this and waited for centuries until they had the strength to over power their Albanian neighbours. During the Balkan wars the Serbians unleashed centuries of blood oaths and massacred thousands of Albanians and committed numerous rapes on women and children. To note none of these people they killed had ever invaded Serbian land or did their parents, parents. They were all just born in thr wrong place at the wrong time. So your collective guilt ideology just leads to minorities getting massacred by the majority or minorities mass murdering innocent people who were born centuries after the crime was committed.
ShortieFat@reddit
This guy nails it. Libertarianism is a personal ethic enacted by individuals today. It's not a utopian legal or economic system. Live out its truth by not perpetuating coercive practices of the people who came before us.
If a Libertarian exists in social context that is coercive and limits freedom and chooses to do things to change the consciousness and practices of his/her fellow citizens in ways that enhance freedom, they can certainly do so. If OP has a collective sense of historical responsibility and future destiny, the only direction we can go is forward, growing a brighter future large enough to dilute the dark past is the way to go.
I am not entitled to the remedies to injustices that my ancestor suffered. We can't fix the past, but we can fix the present and the future, or at least try to make improvements going forward.
Some-Mountain7067@reddit
The US government absolutely violated native property rights. Just goes to show how essential property rights are.
OriginalSkyCloth@reddit
How many “tribes” committed genocides on other tribes previously? Maybe Indians should have better immigration policy
Some-Mountain7067@reddit
I’m sure there are plenty of examples of native tribes conquering/committing genocide against other tribes. This does not excuse the USA’s actions against native tribes.
OriginalSkyCloth@reddit
“Examples” lol. It’s literally all of world history. There are current “examples” still occurring today, but the only bad country is the USA of course because your history professor told you that.
Some-Mountain7067@reddit
When did I say the USA is the only bad country? Being a libertarian, I tend to have a sour opinion of all governments, from small tribal ones to large republics. The point I made before is that the American government’s actions against native tribes in the 19th century are just another example of government violating property rights. It doesn’t mean that I condone similar actions a tribe commits against another tribe, I would simply see that as another example.
Notworld@reddit
What can you really do other than recognize it and move on?
Beginning-Active5738@reddit
Saying “just move on” ignores that this isn’t ancient history. Native land and rights were still being taken well into the 1900s, and the last residential schools (meant to erase Native culture) didn’t close until the 1990s. The effects, loss of sovereignty, poverty, and generational trauma, are still very real today.
Acknowledging that doesn’t mean punishing anyone alive now. It means being honest and supporting voluntary, principled repair, things like honoring existing treaties, returning stolen or unused federal land to tribes, supporting tribal sovereignty, investing in Native-led businesses and education, and ending government barriers that limit Native self-determination.
That kind of restitution actually aligns with libertarian values, restoring property and autonomy to the rightful owners, not expanding government control. Moving on only makes sense after we’ve faced what happened and worked toward a fair foundation for everyone’s liberty.
Suspicious_Honey6966@reddit
Who exactly gets the restitution and for exactly what land, not every square mile of north America was claimed by someone and what of land taken in wars or battles between tribes? Do we go back through thousands of years of exchanges to see who had it first?
Beginning-Active5738@reddit
You’re right, we can’t go back thousands of years or sort out disputes between tribes. Restitution today is about fixing the effects of government actions, honoring treaties, and giving tribes control over their land and communities. It’s not about rewriting all of history.
Suspicious_Honey6966@reddit
So what is the plan? Do we ignore the injustice the tribes perpetrated and punish the specific descendants of the settlers? Do we punish anyone in north America who lives here now even if the moved here last week? Do we offer them the choice to take part in society and reap the benefits they say they have missed out on? Honestly it seems a bit disingenuous to ignore what they did in the past while saying colonists should pay for the past.
Beginning-Active5738@reddit
Just to clarify, I’m not advocating for anyone’s land or property to be taken away today. The focus is on addressing long-term disadvantages and systemic issues, not punishing people or taking what they currently own.
Suspicious_Honey6966@reddit
I've always wondered what is really holding them back. They have their own government, their own police force, they are able to cross back and forth from camada to America as they have special rights, special laws to avoid at least some taxes, they have access to free higher education at several colleges and universities. They have a lot of things going for them, to blame a past injustice seems like a weak argument. They could also move off reservation and benefit from what the colonists built, integrate with society. Why purposefully live a rough life and complain about it unless the goal is to simply be able to blame someone else.
Beginning-Active5738@reddit
You bring up good points about the benefits tribes have today, but most of them are pretty limited or come with trade offs that aren’t obvious from the outside.
Sovereignty: Tribes have some self-government, but most reservation land is held in federal trust. That means they need federal approval for leases, businesses, or infrastructure. It’s not full control over their own land.
Police: Tribal police exist, but they usually can’t prosecute non-Native offenders, even for crimes on the reservation. That leaves big gaps in justice and safety.
Taxes: The tax exemptions only apply to income earned on reservation land. If someone works or shops off-reservation, they pay the same taxes as everyone else.
Education: Some scholarships exist for Native students, but they’re not universal or fully funded. Many Native schools are underfunded, which makes college harder to reach in the first place.
Cross-border rights: Those are treaty rights for tribes whose land existed before the US/Canada border. It’s about preserving ancestral movement, not a special privilege.
And about moving off reservations,people absolutely can, and many do. But “just moving” often means giving up their community, culture, and nationhood to access opportunities that shouldn’t require leaving home in the first place. The goal isn’t to force assimilation, it’s to make sure Native nations have the same freedom and resources to thrive where they are.
So most of these “benefits” are small ways to honor old agreements or fix past harm, not handouts. And even with them, Native communities still deal with high poverty and limited economic freedom because the government still controls a lot of what they can do with their own land.
From a libertarian view, the answer isn’t more government involvement, it’s letting tribes manage their own land and resources without so many federal restrictions.
Suspicious_Honey6966@reddit
If you don't some research there are several universities and colleges that offer fully funded education, primary schools on reservations are lacking funds because they dont pay state or local taxes so why would they get tax funding for those schools? If they want government schools then move off res and pay full taxes. Yes there is federal government involvement but they live within two other nations, I suppose we could have it where both IS and Canada fully sever all control over resvarion lands but thst should also mean no more government assistance in any way, if they do not contribute to taxes they should not receive any benefits. Build their own infrastructure and become fully self reliant. I do agree tribal police should be able to prosecute on their own loand but if we sever ties then it should be treated like a citizen of one country in another country. And moving off res doesn't mean giving up culture and community, many cultures have simply built small versions of their communities within other cities. I agree we dont need more government, their communities should be treated the same as any other community and then be given access to the same resources. There are non native communities in America easily as poor, possibly poorer, as any reservation especially in Appalachia.
Beginning-Active5738@reddit
I actually agree with a lot of what you said, the idea of full self reliance and genuine sovereignty is what many Native people want too. The tricky part is that the current system doesn’t allow tribes to become fully independent, even if they want to.
For example, tribal land is held in federal trust, which means the U.S. government literally owns the title and has to approve almost any development, lease, or sale. That makes it almost impossible to build true self reliance or economic freedom. Tribes can’t even use their land as collateral for loans without federal permission.
So the issue isn’t that tribes want handouts instead of independence, it’s that they’re stuck in a halfway model where the federal government controls their assets but still underfunds the services it’s legally obligated to provide under treaties.
If we’re talking about fairness, a consistent libertarian approach would be: + End the federal trust system and let tribes hold full legal title to their own land. + Honor existing treaty obligations (because they’re contracts, not charity). + Phase out federal micromanagement so tribes can govern, trade, and build infrastructure however they choose, whether that’s closer ties with the U.S., full independence, or something in between.
Comparing tribes to poor non Native communities misses a key point: those communities aren’t bound by federal trusteeship or treaty relationships. Tribes are. The path forward isn’t about dependency or assimilation, it’s about restoring the ability to make their own choices without federal interference.
Beginning-Active5738@reddit
I get what you’re saying, holding people today responsible for what their ancestors did seems unfair. But there’s a difference between punishing people and fixing ongoing problems.
Many Native American communities still face big disadvantages because of things that happened in the past, like land being taken, broken treaties, and forced relocation. Efforts like reparations aren’t about punishing anyone, they’re about helping fix these problems that exist today.
Yes, history is complicated, and other groups also did harmful things. That doesn’t erase the lasting effects of colonization or the responsibility of governments and institutions that benefited from it.
So really, it’s about addressing the consequences of past wrongs, not punishing people for their ancestors’ actions.
natermer@reddit
But there is no "we" here.
That is where you are argument falls apart; There is no "we". There is no "us".
The vast majority of Americans didn't have family here involved in "the range wars". They had no choice or say or involvement in "trail of tears".
Nobody was actually responsible for any of the diseases that ravaged Americas. They had no clue how those diseases even worked. They had no concept of germ theory. The best they had at the time that diseases spread through bad smells.
The majority of Americans alive right now are either going to be from immigrants or are descended from slaves. The ancestors who where here had no involvement in the treatment of American Indians, good or bad.
So if you have "the federal government do restitution" that money is going to be forcibly stolen, one way or the other, from people who had no bearing at all with anything that happened.
Beginning-Active5738@reddit
I get what you’re saying, I’m not arguing that individual Americans today are guilty for what happened in the past, or that people’s money should be “stolen” to pay for it. What I’m talking about is holding the federal government accountable for its own legal obligations and ongoing interference.
Many tribes still have treaties that are legally binding contracts with the U.S. government. Honoring those treaties, returning mismanaged lands that are already held in trust, and allowing tribes to have sovereign control over their resources aren’t acts of collective guilt, they’re about fulfilling existing promises and respecting property rights.
In a libertarian framework, the problem isn’t “what our ancestors did,” it’s that the government continues to violate property and sovereignty rights today. Fixing that doesn’t require taking anything from innocent people, it requires the government to stop overstepping and to uphold its own contracts
BR1M570N3@reddit
That's great and all but where are you going to get the money to pay for this "restitution"? Cuz it sure as hell is not coming out of my pocket. I had nothing to do with The murder, rape, or theft of that land or resources, nor was I party to any treaty that I later reneged on. I'm not paying for it.
OriginalSkyCloth@reddit
Lmao! Jews
Same-Cabinet4193@reddit
This
It happened hundreds of years ago and nowadays the American Indians don't have much claim to the land anymore. Doing efforts to "right the wrongs" will just punish those who took no part in it.
Vegetable_Coyote_418@reddit
Well, we are here now so… shitty actions in the past aren’t gonna make me up and move my family back to Europe. Plus, one of my great grandfathers was 💯 Cherokee so I’m just owning what my ancestors previously owned. Maybe I shouldn’t have had to pay??? 🤔😂
chaoking3119@reddit
You can't right every wrong that's ever been done in history. Especially, because a lot of those wrongs are overlapping and/or conflicting. The best option is to just start from a clean slate going forward. It's not possible to fix the past, but it is possible to fix the future.
AlphaIota@reddit
Coercive and unjust means of ownership was pretty much the norm in the world until historically recently. In the Americas, many tribes slaughtered many other tribes for land. So why do we recognize this fact only when Europeans get involved with the Americas?
VaguePredictions@reddit (OP)
Sure, and violence is often the norm, but I feel like failing to recognize Indigenous humanity is not liberty. Its power calling its self law because it can.
AlphaIota@reddit
The fact is that it is impossible to know who the very first inhabitants of any land were. And whoever they were, they have been dead for millennia. Their tribes (this term being used mainly for native Americans but could apply to any subgroup) have probably been conquered and reconquered again and again. You would also have to determine what lands were stolen intra-tribe. Do those victims not deserve the same justice? If one grievance is made, then a million others could be made. Ever single living human had horrific ancestors. We know that because those ancestors had to be horrific to survive. Your morality is a luxury provided to you by the suffering of many, many people.
No-Win1091@reddit
We also need to live in reality. No one alive was responsible for settlers conquering north america and no one alive is dealing with the Trail of Tears or death from wars on this land.
We were born into this environment and navigate as such. As the world progressed forward, the landscape changed and all we are responsible for is the current era and its impact on future generations. Principles and philosophy were expanded and improved upon as a result of historical events. Methods of acquiring land are also vastly different in today’s world than they were before (for the most part). That was the old system, and they lost in the laws of that now outdated society… right, wrong or otherwise no one is owed anything in present day outside of the current agreements.
White_C4@reddit
Laws are based on social contract and trust. It's impossible that the law is upheld 100% of the time.
As for Native Americans, the US government never saw them as actual citizens of the US. There's a reason why the 14th amendment excluded Native Americans from citizenship.
Native Americans never had a legitimate system of government which is why the US government was able to continually screw over them during the 1800s and 1900s. This was never unique to the US though, as other colonial nations never saw tribes as legal and legitimate cultures to obey laws under.
OriginalSkyCloth@reddit
Please lay out a space of earth that has not been fought over. At which point in time are you trying to dictate historical reference?
laughsitup2021@reddit
There are 2 components to this answer. First, the violence against native tribes were largely after the country was established. While there were some in the colonial era, they typically associated with them in a friendly fashion as they executed trade for resources and farming. Second, the libertarian principle does not say to never commit evils. However, freedom does come with responsibilities and it is encumbent upon those who harm others (even uninteionally) to restore them as best as possible. The government did do that.
Arcaeca2@reddit
My position is "you aren't the same person as your ancestor".
Even if my ancestor stole someone's land, I'm not my ancestor. I don't deserve to have my property taken away for a thing that I didn't do.
Even if my ancestor had their land stolen, I'm not my ancestor. I don't deserve to have someone else's property taken away and given to me as recompense for a thing that didn't happen to me.
So long as the people actually involved are alive, what was taken form them should be restored to them. But if they have passed on I think we need to let go. It is not just infeasible, but actively unjust, to punish the innocent of the present for crimes they didn't commit.
TaxationisThrift@reddit
I don't know if I agree with that. If I steal your car, write into my will that my kid gets it and then die but you can later prove it's your car you should be able to get it back. I was not the legitimate owner and had no right to pass it's ownership on to my child.
Obviously things get more complex and not as easy to solve when you are dealing with hundreds of years of generations and not just a single transfer and the solution may not be as simple as just "give it back" but the idea that nothing is owed to the person who was stolen from or their descendants is in my opinion not congruent with libertarian ethics.
TaxationisThrift@reddit
Handing over any land ON EARTH to it's rightful owner at this post is almost impossible. The proverbial Gordian knot of who owns what is so complex and further muddied by the fact that the current "owners" have mixed their labor with the land in many cases.
Ideally it would never have been stolen, obviously. But now that it has been and enough time has passed to make the prospect of simply giving it back easier said than done we come to the very difficult question of what to do.
I don't really have an answer and have never seen a uniform answer among libertarians. I wouldn't even be wholly opposed to some sort of payoff to the descendants of the original owners though how such a thing would be accomplished and when it would be feasible to do so is it's own kettle of fish.
txtumbleweed45@reddit
It’s gets really messy but I think most normal people today are kind of exempt from their ancestors discretions.
However, if you can provide real evidence that a particular family fucked over another for financial gain, you have a real court case and might deserve reparations of some kind.
For example, if my family stole your family’s land 200 years ago and built an empire off of the profit, you should be paid out. It gets a lot more complicated when you talk about reparations in terms of every white American paying out every black American.
Artistic-Leg-847@reddit
People cannot delegate rights they do not have, which makes it impossible for anyone to acquire the right to rule (authority). People cannot alter morality, which makes the laws of government devoid of any inherent authority. A right is something we can all enjoy and use at the same time without contradiction. When government gets involved that “right” becomes a contradiction i.e. violating the rights of one to benefit another. Where government exists natural rights are negated. I agree that people would give rights for security but that’s only because they don’t realize they can have security without the need for a government.
Locke_the_Trickster@reddit
First of all, the New World is a very large place and the estimated population of Native Americans before colonization is 50 million - 1/6 the population of the USA alone. Have you ever driven through the USA? A lot of unused land, even now. One conclusion to draw is that there was a lot of available land at the time of colonization that was never homesteaded, also land that was abandoned. Consequently, a lot of colonization was finding unused land and building on it by the colonists. That was the vast majority of the story of colonization, it is just not the history on which people fixate. Native Americans do not have a property right to the entirety of the New World merely by being born on the continent. Thus, I reject the premise that “much of the land was acquired through violence and displacement.” Some of it certainly was, but much of the land was morally homesteaded by the colonists.
Regarding the land that was acquired by conquest, we don’t have a time machine. We cannot undo past evils. There is seems to be an implied premise that the Native American tribes were entirely peaceful and never acquired land by conquest and displacement. That premise is wrong. Humans have a history of violent conquest and morally illegitimate acquisitions of land, and this applies to many Native American tribal holdings. We cannot possibly redress that entire history, nor should we. The people alive now didn’t commit the atrocities. We recognize the evils that happened and strive toward a peaceful society, which you need Objectivist (or libertarian) principles to properly do.
How many of the conflict between Native Americans and colonists occurred because a nomadic tribe returned to a land they left decades ago and found colonists there, and initiated force against the colonists? Have you factored that into the historical analysis?
Lastly, why would the history of coercive human interactions have any effect on the grounding of libertarian ethics? You are implying the establishment of the libertarian moral framework is somehow tainted by historical human actions that violate that ethic - most of occurred before libertarian ethics were fully conceived. Why is that? Some land was unethically acquired, why does that concrete affect the philosophy? If anything libertarianism is a response to that history. Libertarian ethics is a break away from the jungle ethic of the past that lead to conquest and initiations of violence. You have to make the argument that the libertarian ethics are built on unjust foundations, you haven’t. The ethics are not hypocritical or contradictory at all.
VaguePredictions@reddit (OP)
How do libertarian ethics justify violent conquest? If we believe all people are created equal and the non-aggression principle matters, then titles born of aggression aren’t morally clean. I know the past is the past, but intellectual honesty means we face those failings and talk seriously about rectification where claims are identifiable.
Locke_the_Trickster@reddit
Libertarian ethics doesn’t justify any initiations of violence, including conquest.
First, how would you discover which titles were “born of aggression” and which were not? The prevalence of unpropertied land at the time of colonization and would have been justly homesteaded by colonists is hyper-relevant here. What evidence would be used to substantiate the land claim? Would the claimant also need to provide evidence that his ancestors never aggressed to acquire the land?
Second, how would you “rectify” the claim if proved? Harm people that did not commit the conquest - which is pretty much everyone alive now? The act of redressing historical land disputes would itself violate the non-aggression principle because you would have to forcibly take away land from innocent people.
Third, a tribal land claim is not a real property right. There is no generic collectivistic property right. Individuals own property or partial interests in property. How would an individual Native American assert a valid property right claim here, did Native Americans have a concept of individual land ownership to assert?
Fourth, the idea that the invention of a relatively new moral framework means that, to be consistent, we need to redress all historical harms is utopian nonsense, and would require initiations of force against innocent people - people who did not commit the historical atrocities. When one person initiates force against another - thereby infringing on the harmed party’s human rights, the correct person to punish is the one who committed the infringement - not his great great grandchild. Your proposal to “rectify” past conquest today is the position that violates and contradicts libertarian ethics and the non-aggression principle.
You also never provided responsive counter arguments to the questions posed in my comment.
VaguePredictions@reddit (OP)
My brother in Christ, I’m trying to find a moral framework I can live by. I believe in liberty. I also can’t square that belief with the atrocities that happened here. I know history everywhere is messy. I was asking for perspective on how libertarian ethics deal with titles born of aggression without hand-waving it away. If the answer is rectification only where claims are specific and provable, through courts and public lands first, say that. I’m listening.
Locke_the_Trickster@reddit
I think your concern with past injustices is respectable. However, I think the correct moral position here is to largely accept current titles to land as they are, and strive to build a rights-respecting society from here. Perhaps the only exception being federally-held land and strong evidence of American conquest of a first possessor tribe - which may be impossible to prove. Anything else to “rectify” the historical injustices is only calling for more violence and injustice and violation of human rights. The correct position is to leave people alone, do nothing. Your moral stature isn’t dictated by the actions of others, let alone actions from 200 years ago. Past injustices isn’t something for which you must repent.
The rest of my statements and questions put to you are all highly relevant. You seem to be bringing presumptions that lack justification and a historical perspective that improperly frames the issue. Also, the questions I posed undermines the notion that “rectifying” the atrocities is the moral/NAP-abiding position considering what “rectification” would require. If you disagree with my “do nothing” position, then propose your own vision on rectifying historical injustice and work through what it means.
Libertarian ethics mostly only outlines the minimum basis for peaceful human relations (do not aggress). It isn’t really a full statement of a “morality to live by.” I subscribe to Ayn Rand’s Objectivism, which is a full statement of morality.
Suspicious_Honey6966@reddit
Question, how do we determine which plots of land were already owned by someone? Also what if the indigenous person who owned plots of land had taken thst land from others through war or theft? There is no way ever section of land in north America belonged to a tribe or person and much of that changed back and forth in various wars or battles amongst themselves.
natermer@reddit
Land has that history anywhere in the globe. It doesn't matter if it is North America or Europe or Africa or China.
As long as humans existed they would use violence to take things from others.
If people can prove damages then they can get compensation.
This becomes difficult when everybody involved has been dead for over a hundred years, though.
sbrisbestpart41@reddit
Well through homesteading, read up on Locke regarding that but also because the idea of violence on natives is blown out of proportion by most “scholars”. The natives were nomadic in some cases or outright violent in others whereas settlers didn’t just kill on sight. They tried to build.
Beginning-Active5738@reddit
It’s actually not accurate to say that violence against Native Americans is “blown out of proportion.” Historical evidence, both from U.S. government records and firsthand accounts, shows that Native peoples endured widespread atrocities, forced removals, and systemic efforts to erase their cultures. Entire tribes were displaced from their ancestral lands, often through broken treaties or military force.
Many Native communities were not nomadic, but had well established agricultural societies, trade systems, and complex governance long before colonization. Even those who were semi nomadic had deep spiritual and territorial ties to the land. The idea that settlers “tried to build” while Natives were merely violent or wandering oversimplifies and distorts history, it erases the reality that the U.S. was built on top of Indigenous land through colonization, warfare, and genocide.
There’s extensive documentation of massacres, forced relocations like the Trail of Tears, the destruction of food sources like buffalo to starve Native populations, and the cultural genocide of boarding schools designed to “kill the Indian, save the man.” These weren’t isolated incidents, they were systemic.
Recognizing these facts isn’t about vilifying settlers individually, it’s about acknowledging the reality of colonization and the ongoing intergenerational trauma it caused. Truth is the first step toward genuine understanding and reconciliation.
sbrisbestpart41@reddit
Im talking colonially. Not post republic.
Beginning-Active5738@reddit
Even during the colonial period, there was a lot of violence and displacement. Colonists didn’t just “build”, they expanded through wars and forced removals. Things like the Pequot Massacre (1637) and King Philip’s War (1670s) wiped out huge numbers of Native people.
Locke’s ideas about “improving” land were actually used to justify taking it, saying that because Natives didn’t farm like Europeans, they didn’t have real property rights. That belief made it easy to rationalize conquest and genocide.
So even before the U.S. existed, colonization was built on taking land and destroying Native communities, not peaceful coexistence.
sbrisbestpart41@reddit
Again i’m not disagreeing but its a false framing. You can’t just say its just murdering natives. Because that isn’t what it is at it’s core. There were wars fought. There were civilizations built and torn apart. It wasn’t outright murder. Its a larger part of the upbringing of America.
Murder is wrong, but you are talking about it like it was just because of and the resources were the afterthought.
And homesteading isn’t about improving its about he time and effort you put into something. Its talking about the literal land and the time you’ve put into it over the hypothetical “I would do better”. If it was justification I’d disagree upon that basis. My explanation of Locke’s point was that we can do nothing about it now because it has been homesteaded.
Beginning-Active5738@reddit
I get that history is complex, but many “wars” involved massacres, forced removals, and the destruction of entire communities, that was conquest, not just conflict.
Locke’s homesteading idea was about labor, but colonists used it to justify taking Native land. No one is talking about taking anyone’s house or lawn back today.
Restitution today can mean honoring treaties, returning unused federal land, letting tribes manage their own resources, and supporting Native-led businesses and schools.
sbrisbestpart41@reddit
Since the debate is out of the way regarding the context I agree with everything except subsidising or specifically supporting certain businesses. Its all up to the market.
But yeah there are definitely ways to make up for the wrongs but I was more focused on what it means to be American and how our history doesn’t hinge upon the original native-american relations in earlier periods.
Beginning-Active5738@reddit
I really appreciated this chat. I get your point about the market, supporting Native led businesses can be a personal choice rather than a requirement. I enjoyed talking through this with you.
sbrisbestpart41@reddit
Me too. I’m happy we found common ground.
VaguePredictions@reddit (OP)
Good call. If I showed up at someones house and “annexed” it because I thought they weren’t using it properly, they'd be pissed and it’d be illegal. So where, exactly, does annexation become “legal”? When the claimant is stronger?
Beginning-Active5738@reddit
Exactly, that’s the tricky part. “Legal” often came down to who had power, not what was morally right. That’s why colonists could justify taking Native land under the law of the time, even though it was clearly conquest and not voluntary transfer. It shows how legality and justice don’t always match up.
Mead_and_You@reddit
What are we supposed to do, give it back? To who? Before my family was where we were, the place was uninhabited. That's why they settled there, so they didn't have to fight with Indians for it.
There's nearby tribes that all claim it's rightfully theirs. But who do I give it to? None of them had it before.
For the land that was taken from Indians, who do they give it back to, the tribe they took it from, or the tribe that tribe took it from, or the tribe THEY took it from? Who decides who gets what?
The logistics of this are impossible to implement already and that's assume we are willing and able to fragrantly and forcefully violate the property rights of people who live their currently.
My family has been here for 400 years. At what point do we have a right to call a place our home for fuck sake?
Anen-o-me@reddit
We actually support the return of all indigenous land. Even giving Hawaii back to the Hawaiians.
We are not USA apologists.
VaguePredictions@reddit (OP)
Love this. If we actually support liberty, we have to reject “might makes right.” Otherwise libertarianism collapses into backing whoever has the most guns instead of whoever has the most just claim.
Anen-o-me@reddit
We have always rejected might makes right.
VaguePredictions@reddit (OP)
Cool! I'll look into Rothbard. Never heard of them, but thanks for the heads up :) And honestly, I don't think I've ever seen ethics and liberty in the same sentence.
castingcoucher123@reddit
So let's go all the way back through this. Let's reset everything. Do we exile the indigenous tribes that wiped out other drivers? What do should we do.
It wasn't until recently that countries have attempted to stop, or stop others from colonizing whole swaths of other people's lands. We are maybe 70 years into this. Britain couldn't let go of the Falkland islands. There is still territory disputes amongst countries. Thousands of years of this behavior was not going to stop solely due to ww2.
Birdcage17@reddit
My idea is “accept the status quo and no more infringement from now on”.
First, before the rule of private property and individual rights established, no matter how do you acquire your property, it is unjust. War, feudal rules, oppressions are all over the place. If a peasant becomes a noble, he would do exactly the same thing as his current lord.
For another example, in pre-colonial America, the empire here slaughter each other, sacrifice their own citizens to god and established strict hierarchy of power. Even if what the settler did was terribly wrong, the colonial period is still two groups of salvages fight with each other. We should accept the result of either group’s victory and move forward. The underdog lost but that’s it.
Similarly, all the groups use slaves throughout the history. If Africans have enough power, they WILL enslave white people or asians.
Oppression, slavery is still wrong and we should abolish these horrible things asap. However, it is hard to make a case to argue for governmental level retributions.
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