What was pre-Ottoman Balkan food like
Posted by Fun-Scallion3522@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 72 comments
It seems the vast, vast majority of dishes in most of our countries, Bosnia and Serbia at least, have a heavy Turkish influence, if not outright copies of Turkish dishes. My question is, what did food look like in the Balkans, especially the Western Balkans before turkish rule? Are there any notable dishes today that have a pre ottoman origin?
Sea-Temporary-6995@reddit
One thing I am sure about: banitsa (burek, tiropita) already existed in the 11-th century because it was mentioned in a book by a Bulgarian Bogomil monk. I am saying this because many people (even in Bulgaria) claim that banitsa is Turkish. Well, it can't be Turkish since it existed before the Turks came to the Balkans. Now, I don't know exactly what it is in origin (it might be Bulgarian, Greek, Albanian, etc.), but it's not Turkish.
Few_Mountain_2339@reddit
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/historians-cookbook/history-borek “It was not long before börek began spreading its wings. From the early seventh century onwards, the various Turkic peoples began migrating westwards across Central Asia, taking their favourite pastry with them. Within a matter of decades, the Gökturks – having already established control over most of Siberia – had reached the Aral Sea; the Khazars had settled in the Caucasus; and the Bulgars had carried börek into what is today Ukraine. Still organised along nomadic lines, few of the states they founded lasted long. But by the early 11th century, the Seljuks had introduced it not only to Persia, but also to areas of Eastern Anatolia formerly occupied by the Byzantine Empire.”
Dear-Potential-3477@reddit
Europeans before the age of exploration ate very bland food. Almost non of the food we eat today is actually from europe
Kassella5652@reddit
A lot of pork, root vegetables, grains and fruit :)
EternalyTired@reddit
Hard to say without historical sources.
But keep in mind that Eastern Rome was in constant communication with Persia and Levant much before Arabs came in.
If Ottomans took architecture from Byzantium and adjusted it, who is to say they didn't do the same to food.
EveningChemical8927@reddit
Correct response here. Will add that foods like schnitzel, grilled meatballs, pies and stuffed vegetables are documented in written in recipes since Roman empire times.
The major additions in the Balkanic food were when the vegetables from the Americas were introduced: potatoes, tomatoes, aubergines, corn. And those are definitely not Turkish since they became popular at the end of the 1800s beginning of the 1900s, when the ottoman empire was already weak and mostly out of the Balkans.
Kind-Setting8036@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange
-Against-All-Gods-@reddit
Yup. For example, baklava is pretty much an Ottoman remix of the ancient Greek plakous.
Cultural_Chip_3274@reddit
Yeap and in reality things like kebab etc are a continuum from balkans to middle east to Persia. Food travels much more easily than people.
LawOfImpropabillity@reddit
There are nomerous recipes left from byzantine and ancient Greek times I'm guessing everything with pork in it is mostly original recipe
Shaolinpower2@reddit
Probably very bland. Many mainstream vegetables came from the New World.
Kitsooos@reddit
Tomatoes, potatoes etc came from the New World, but Byzantine, Armenian, Bulgarian etc food was anything but bland. There are some very intricate recipes, like kokorets(i), that have not changed at all since byzantine times. There was also a wide variety of spices imported mostly from Persia.
Shaolinpower2@reddit
Bland compared to present day. I'm sure the area was as delightful as it gets back in those times too (especially compared to other areas in Europe). But still, I'm quite sure that the difference is enormous.
Different_Reach_4215@reddit
Almost the same... 90% of Turkish cuisine is actually balkan-anatolian rebranded as ottoman...
Babagoosh217@reddit
They also have a lot of Persian, Armenian and Mesopotamian influences
Different_Reach_4215@reddit
I said ... And Anatolian... Pretty sure thats includes persian and Armenian etc
Babagoosh217@reddit
Persian is not Anatolian and Armenian only partially
Kitsooos@reddit
Before the Turks, virtually the entirety of Eastern Anatolia (modern Eastern Turkey) was Armenian.
Kitsooos@reddit
The Ottomans took much more food-wise from the Byzantines and the Armenians than most modern Turks are willing to admit. So as far as Anatolia and Southern Balkans are concerned, probably not that different honestly.
Northern Balkans, I don't know.
HeyVeddy@reddit
Have you been to turkey?
I went to turkey this year and was shocked at the food. Was good, but completely different than Bosnia and Serbia. I definitely prefer ex-yugoslav dishes, our lamb, our vegetables, our fruits, bread, bakeries, stews, etc.
Turkish food isn't bad at all but to me it's inherently Turkish and a different cuisine. Maybe Yugoslav cuisine is ottoman + slavic but Turkish strikes me as "Turkish" and different
CallWrong6343@reddit
I've been to trukey and their food wasn't all that special (besides baklava, the one I had there was the best one I ever had). There were many dishes I've never seen before and they all felt like they lacked something
devoker35@reddit
Probably you didn't go to good restaurants. Thanks to Turkish economy, many restaurants went the easy way to reduce the quality for cost savings or good ones became harder to find and quite expensive.
CallWrong6343@reddit
I was staying at a nice hotel, it was cheap (for us at least, idk if average turk could afford to stay there) but I don't think that they were cutting costs
devoker35@reddit
Hotel restaurants are almost always bad in Turkey unless you stay in a really luxury one.
CallWrong6343@reddit
good to know, if I ever go back I'll try to find something better
morgoths_servant@reddit
You are way too logical for the avg reader of this post bruh
Fun-Scallion3522@reddit (OP)
different in what ways? and I have not been!
HeyVeddy@reddit
The flavor profile, the spice mix, the portions (💀) what's easily accessible and available vs what must be ordered (which implies relevance to culture), obviously the salamis and different cold cut meats etc can't even be compared. it looked very middle eastern with Balkan style meats or vegetables
Live-Role7096@reddit
Have you ever tried Turkish sarma, mantije, burek ? They are totally different than Western Balkan or Bosnian dishes with those same names. I had the biggest cultural shocks when i lived 7 years as a Bosniak in Turkey, in plenty of segments. Their mantı and Bosnian/Sandžak mantije are totally different dishes, only the name is simillar. In some places even the name aint the same hence some regions call it "ribice", so using a slavic based local name.
Fun-Scallion3522@reddit (OP)
middle eastern spices in the context of meat throw me off a bit, it tastes its trying to be dessert.
makedonskipatriot@reddit
The same it is now. We do not eat horse meat and horse meat like the turks did in Asia. It means the turks adopted our cuisines and not the other way around.
ApprehensiveCall1690@reddit
Even tomates didn't exist before 1500s ..most of food you eat are very likely found in last centuries. You can argue who found it but you dont need to yalknas if Turks just sit and did nothing since 1071
makedonskipatriot@reddit
Who cares about tomatoes? OK, you add tomatoes to a stew the flavor is improved but we still ate it before tomatoes. What was turkish cuisine like before they came to Anatolia? Same as Kazakhstan or Mongolian as far as I know.
Quiet-Equipment7334@reddit
Turkic people(I'm not talking about Bulgars or Hungarians) migrated to balkans hundreds of years before the Ottomans. I think the basic things like yogurt, kefir, börek, sarma and kebabs was already there before the Ottomans.
2024-2025@reddit
I think it’s impossible to imagine. But there is clearly difference in the taste between many Balkan and Turkish dishes.
Cevapi is probably the best example I can think of, a taste unique to the Balkans you can’t find in Turkey. There are similar looking dishes in Turkey but the taste is way different.
blumonste@reddit
Take Sucuk or sudjzuk(?) for example. Turkish sucuk (beef sausage) is different than Bosnian or Albanian sucuk. Armenian sucuk is identical to Turkish sucuk, I can say it is better than modern Turkish sucuk but identical to traditional Turkish sucuk.
In the US where I live, I have access to Armenian sucuk, but is more expensive compared to Turkish sucuk (both made in the US). I would still buy Armenian sucuk. They remind me of the traditional homemade sucuks of yesteryear.
I tried Albanian and Bosnian sucuks. They were smoked, hard and tasted different.
VintageBoost1@reddit
Same here. Armenian sucuk and pastırma is so damn good
BalkanViking007@reddit
Burek too not the lame börek
blumonste@reddit
LOL Good, have some fervent nationalism, what is Balkans without it? Meanwhile I will enjoy my börek.
-Passenger-@reddit
Bro, I've eaten Börek, Sarma and filovane Paprike (filled paprika) at my Turkish friends, made by their mothers/aunts. So homemade. I've also eaten it in Turkish Restaurants. Stuff that I know its in our cuisine and yours.
And dont get me wrong, I love Turkish food, for me one of the best, (not Döner) but the stuff I mentioned is on a totally different level when its Balkan style.
You might or might not invented it, we might or might not have gotten it when you guys were around, I dont care honestly....but when we make it, it's MADE....
I'll die on that hill and nothing will change my mind...
BalkanViking007@reddit
You know that i know what we all know 😉🙈🙉🙊
HeyVeddy@reddit
This was a huge culture shock for me. And in general how fatty Turkish food is, from their dips drowning in oil, or their burek that's usually empty of meat but dripping in oil.
blumonste@reddit
Homemade or bought from a place? Beef is probably the most expensive in Turkey compared to anywhere in Eurasia. Skimping on meat is common practice at restaurants/commercial kitchens.
HeyVeddy@reddit
Only bought from places, never homemade.
I did have a baguette which was packed with meat (and we don't do that in ex yu) which was amazing but again, it's not really burek or Balkan, to me it's Turkish
Fun-Scallion3522@reddit (OP)
Absolutely. Similar form and techniques but completely different flavor profile. Im just a diaspora kid so its not like im an expert, but Balkan stuff tends to be heavier and seasoned more simply. A lot of serbs I know are averse to seasonings other than salt, pepper, garlic and ofc vegeta lol.
blumonste@reddit
Turkey has different regions with different cuisines. Southeast of the country has Mesopotamian influences that translate into use of extra spices. Northeast has Georgian, Pontus influences. Just to name a few. What you eat at a random restaurant in Turkey is not really representative.
Serapis5@reddit
Probably closer to eastern europe, dairy and grain porridges, fermented vegetables, meat stews
Fun-Scallion3522@reddit (OP)
I wonder if it would have been close to dishes from rural western croatia?
Tardosaur@reddit
What the fuck is western croatia?
Moon_Burg@reddit
walrus17@reddit
If anything, it would be closer to rural eastern Croatia
Opp0site-Researcher@reddit
Vax, butter, greens....
RossMxx@reddit
Mostly the same, maybe with less spices.
Creepy_Parfait4404@reddit
I think turkey today have also taken very much from the balkans
Stealthfighter21@reddit
When you say Turkish dishes, do you think Turks invented them?
Fun-Scallion3522@reddit (OP)
not necessarily, just introduced around the time of Turkish rule. I know a lot of those dishes have Greek origins.
geo0rgi@reddit
What makes you think it's introduced by the Turks and not the other way around?
Not saying that's the case, but when it comes to food, especially from such a long time ago, there is not exactly an easy way to know for sure which foor came from where exactly
Like yoghurt- some say it's Bulgarians that brought it from their nomadic past, other say it was Greeks that cultivated it, others say it's Turks that brought it and so on. You can stay and argue all day and no one will be exactly right or wrong
HeyVeddy@reddit
Yogurt is Bulgaria though, now whether that's from the bulgar tribe or slavs who knows but the bacteria is literally named Bulgaris something something
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
Lactobacillus Bulgaricus but that is only because it was discovered by a Bulgarian scientist. It exists all throughout the Balkans, the Levante and Central Asia
Fun-Scallion3522@reddit (OP)
it is all kind of foggy. Origins of food tends to be. But especially in our part of the world.
Lykosskias@reddit
I can’t say for sure, but most likely it wasn’t drastically different. Of course it was probably very different than now because tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, etc. hadn’t been introduced from the Americas. Still, the Ottomans were definitely influenced by the Byzantines when they conquered Constantinople, so it’s very likely that much of what is today considered Turkish food was also eaten by people living in the Eastern Balkans/Western Anatolia before the Ottoman conquest.
Kevin_Finnerty011@reddit
The influence of the Ottoman Empire on food in the Balkans is quite overestimated.
Since Roman times, and probably even earlier, there has been a culture exchange in the Eastern Mediterranean, and even in a wider area. A lot of food came from the Levant, Persia, and North Africa, and vice versa. Also, keep in mind that the Age of Discovery happened at pretty much the exact same time as the Ottoman conquests. New discoveries gave us food we never had before and drastically changed the cuisine of the entire Europe.
nontikor@reddit
Also consider that Turkish food today is very different from the food that existed at that point of Ottoman history. We have recipes from a 16th century (if I'm not mistaken?) circumscion ceremony at the Topkapı Palace that look and taste nothing like contemporary Turkish foods. Much of what we associate with Turkish home cooking today, such as eggplants, tomato sauces, hot peppers in kebabs etc. are all results of the Columbian exchange. They became popular only in the 18th and 19th centuries. So Balkan and Anatolian foods probably evolved together rather than one region definitively shaping the other.
vbd71@reddit
Eggplants didn't come from America, though.
nontikor@reddit
Yes, you're right, my mistake
Unusual_Detective420@reddit
The same its now.
Zekieb@reddit
We do actually have a relatively good understanding of Byzantine cuisine. It would not be unreasonable to argue that atleast of the dishes and common food items were also available in the Balkans.
However the availability was probably dependent on the geographic location (ie. coast vs highland vs lowland), climate and or class, for example some exotic meats like donkey and peacock would only really be eaten regularly by the high nobility.
Generally, some common dishes would be various types of soup like lent soup. Stew, for which meat of all kind and fish was used. Even condiments like mustard and garum/γάρος (the infamous roman fish sauce) were used quite a bit. There would also be sausages like Loukanika, and grilled meat a kin to modern day souvlaki. Dried meats like, apokti/modern. apaki (made with pork loin), were quite popular. There was also a kind of hearty souflè like dish called Afrutum, which used minced chicken meat for its filling.
For dessert the general populace would have fruits, the nobility would enjoy them as well but they'd also have access to honey. A common treat among the nobles was a mixture made of honey and citron.
And of course bread would also be a staple food item, in the byzantine context there was also a version of bread with a high shelf life called Tragos/τραγός connected to the modern day Tarhanas.
You could probably find variations of these foods and dishes all over the Mediterranean and the balkans.
I'd recommend you the book "Tastes of Byzantium" by historian Andrew Dalby. He delves deeper into the topic, analysing the vraious sources going through the entire middle ages and explains its culinary history.
HumanMan00@reddit
I dont know in general i can give a very specific example of royal dining.
German sources tell us that Fridrich Barbarosa was served Dolphin imported from Thessaloniky when hosted by Stefan Nemanja 🤷♂️
ImamTrump@reddit
Dinosaur kebab.
Fun-Scallion3522@reddit (OP)
if i could give an award to this comment i would
-Passenger-@reddit
lol they are not copies of Turkish dishes, they are the perfection of them
Fun-Scallion3522@reddit (OP)
absolutely. If we had one victory over the Turks it was taking their shit... and making it better.