Acceptance of narcissism/defending of empathy lackers as social collapse
Posted by nons-1995@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 153 comments
As people who lack empathy are supported and encouraged more, you will notice deaths of despair increase, such as suicides and overdoses, because the social fabric of society has been eroded by that time. As power concentrates at the worst points of society, as narcissists will be hoarding the power and money, people will be faced with the choice of either submitting to those undeserving of power who definitely will abuse it, or to become outcasts who have to starve and scrape by for a living. It's getting too extreme to not notice anymore. Those who are only out for themselves are ruining the planet, they ruin their country, their state, and the lives of people around them. The more people cherish and support narcissistic traits, the further they dig their own country's grave.
Rossdxvx@reddit
There is a belief in our own innate goodness. There is nothing innate about humans at all. It is a fucking struggle to be good and it can and will get you killed in the process. There is no “reward” in goodness, just self sacrifice. It is so much easier to be a selfish POS, especially when everyone else is that way along with society itself.
In the end, I think society is dog eat dog, or fighting over the scraps of whatever the plutocrats toss us.
earthkincollective@reddit
This is precisely the mentality that has led to a world ruled by narcissists and psychopaths.
It's only a struggle to be good, and no reward in it, IN OUR FUCKED UP PSYCHOPATHIC SOCIETY. If we actually were a culture that gave a shit about the good, then we wouldn't think that way and this wouldn't be true.
Rossdxvx@reddit
It is hard to say if these traits can and will ever be eradicated from the human experience. Caligula was a psychopath. So were Nero, Stalin, and Hitler. I mean, ideally we wish the world was a great place and that we could all hold hands and sing Kumbaya together, but that just does not seem to be the case. And with ecological breakdown on the horizon, knowing humanity's past record, I think it is only going to get uglier and far worse.
earthkincollective@reddit
You do realize it's racist to completely negate the existence of all indigenous cultures, both currently and those that existed throughout 99.999% of human existence, right?
Just asking because I don't want to assume you're being malicious, hopefully you're just unaware of what you're doing.
Rossdxvx@reddit
First of all, I never said anything about "negating the existence of all indigenous cultures." Are you trying to tell me that these cultures exist(ed) without any violence and/or conflict within them whatsoever? I am only saying that we live in a world where people will always bash each other's skulls in for whatever random reasons. The sooner that we accept the reality that the world is never going to be a perfect place, then the sooner we can do our best to soften the edges of it to the best of our abilities.
I don't mean to say that one culture or group of people is superior to another or whatever it is that you have decided to read into my posts.
earthkincollective@reddit
No, because that wasn't what the conversation was about. So basically a straw man. I was saying that any study of indigenous cultures shows that they didn't think the way you were claiming all humans always have. Thus denying that is denying their existence.
Rossdxvx@reddit
Seriously? You were the one who pivoted this conversation off of its original course by calling me a racist. I am trying to get your point: that indigenous cultures do not have people with psychopathic or narcissistic traits?
Probably because they would be ostracized from the group or bludgeoned to death for being too selfish. These cultures depend upon mutual cooperation for survival, and the entire group was what was important.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the point you are getting at is that these traits are specific to Judeo-Christian/Western civilization. Since I mentioned Caligula, Hitler, and Stalin, I was only talking specifically about Western civilization and ignoring the rest?
I was only using them as an example to say that psychopathic humans have existed throughout human history. I never meant to paint the whole of humanity with a broad brush, as you implied.
And yes, maybe they are specific to civilizations that have developed in terms of certain levels of complexity beyond the hunter-gatherer level. Whose to say that psychopathic/narcissistic individuals did not exist in these different civilizations that have sprung up throughout history? Certainly, hierarchies and power struggles have, so none of this is new to the human experience, which is my point. Just that these individuals strive under certain conditions while they are kept more in check by others.
As humans have developed, so have our problems.
Or is it just an American thing? Is that your point?
Immersive4life@reddit
This comment made me sad. There is reward in goodness, the real struggle is trying to survive alone, living in hate and despair. Even just one friend can make a difference in your life.
Rossdxvx@reddit
To rephrase what I said to give it more clarity: Choosing to be good, kind, and caring is the more difficult path to take in life. I meant that good does not always triumph over evil. It is true that there is personal fulfillment in being good. However, our society is not set up to encourage or reward this behavior. In fact, throughout history anyone who fought for true social justice and equality for all were murdered and assassinated. To be good is to put yourself at personal risk.
To be truly good you have to sacrifice yourself for others, which is something that is not easy for a lot of people to do (especially in a society that values hyper-individualism over everything else).
PyrocumulusLightning@reddit
If you're good and kind, there's a chance that other good and kind people will want to be around you. That's a HUGE reward, if it happens.
2quickdraw@reddit
In my lifelong personal experience I have found there's a greater chance that you will have a target on your forehead, and will be taken advantage of your entire life. An innate kind nature, even with healthy boundaries, leaves you vulnerable to toxic users. There's no happy ending and there's no justice for the damage that will be done.
PyrocumulusLightning@reddit
It still beats the alternative. I tried to go to the dark side and it SUCKS
We are what we are, and I ain't that.
2quickdraw@reddit
Me either. I'm closer to the end of my life, so closer to leaving this hell realm, but that part of me that still wishes I could save the world, one animal, person, whale, elephant, and tree at a time still agonizes.
bristlybits@reddit
you don't enjoy doing good? honestly you don't gain satisfaction or fulfillment from doing good things?
i don't get it.
Purplealegria@reddit
There are some really twisted people out there.
HelfyAtEvryFriesUSA@reddit
We have a two-tiered system that lacks empathy (lacks empathy in that it refuses to enforce rights it’s paid to enforce) on “either side” for people who don’t fit “either side’s” exploitative, skewed, power-seeking narrative, you get out of the system what you put in to it.
HelfyAtEvryFriesUSA@reddit
I.e. when you try to tone police—on your self-righteous moral high ground—people’s wording of issues that are far more serious than HOW the issues are worded. Makes you not really care what blood runs in the streets when shit hits the fan. Arseholes collecting cheques to do nothing in their job descriptions covering their own arses because “my god how offensive”.
SignalComfortable963@reddit
Misogynist
rmannyconda78@reddit
It’s the reason why I prefer to be by myself. I’m autistic and a lot of those kinds of people sense it in me and target me. Deal with isolation or be horrifically abused(have PTSD from that), yeah no fun. Luckily I do have a small group of people I trust, it’s really hard to find decent people it seems. It’s also the reason I do not date, people have told me I have good “game” and I was with someone for 3 years, I just don’t trust or like people enough to want too.
Susanoos_Wife@reddit
Sadly, being autistic myself, I've realized that shitty people basically view us as prey animals so whenever I'm around a group of unfamiliar people (and some familiar people too,) I always have to have my guard up.
rmannyconda78@reddit
Yeah no kidding, it’s very fucked up. I try to keep interactions with others to a minimum. And the town which I used to live right in the middle of was full of them. I’m out in the country now, I got lucky, many others are not, which is a very sad thing.
Susanoos_Wife@reddit
It might just be me but it feels like social norms have become much more complicated and restrictive in the past few years so while I used to be able to get by with masking my autism fairly well, now it's no longer enough and people almost immediately get the ick from me no matter what I do .
Garuda34@reddit
I'm not on the spectrum, (at least not diagnosed), but the older I get (which is quite old, 60 next week) the less I want to be around other people. I'm quite content with the company of the animals I care for. They have no opinions on religion, or politics, or sports, or celeb gossip, and that is fine with me.
We're just biding our time until the inevitable implosion.
rmannyconda78@reddit
I am mostly right there with ya and I’m 26. I prefer the company of my two cats. People are insane these days.
Straight_Apple_1551@reddit
34, and as much of a bratty little shit as my dog can be, I haven’t felt much need to expand my human social circle these days.
rmannyconda78@reddit
Pets are the best
cool_waterz@reddit
It's those diabolical things that makes me feel alienated from humankind. We can absolutely be wonderful; compassionate, cooperative with foresight and an identity of guardianship, yet the majority seem to choose the pettiest, cruellest, most pathological paths.
It's not just "leaders" who are narcissistic sociopaths, it's the masses who choose, enable, celebrate and appease them.
I really struggle with this, if I'm honest.
rmannyconda78@reddit
It seems as if everybody wants to have power over somebody/something, from high up leaders, to the crackhead outside a gas station, and will do anything for it, up to murder even. Pretty much what you said in the first part of your response. It’s like a lot of people sold their soul to the devil these days
Garuda34@reddit
People are insane these days.
You get the prize for the understatement of the month.
rmannyconda78@reddit
Yeah tell me about it, I’ve seen some truly fucked up stuff this year even.
lNSP0@reddit
Legitimately same as me...
rmannyconda78@reddit
It’s sad that this is a common experience among many autistic folk. People just lack decency
TalkingCat910@reddit
I’ve been noticing the degrading of values and morals in North America for a while
JagBak73@reddit
It's like half of this country acts like pieces of shit and don't feel bad about it at all; a nation of fucking assholes that have no conscience, shame, or goodwill toward other human beings, who exist solely to make others as miserable and angry as they are. They treat kindness, gentleness, vulnerability, sharing, and compassion as weaknesses, and spit on anything that doesn't betray a sort of goose-stepping psuedo-strength.
"Protect your spirit, because you are in the place where spirits get eaten.".
-John Trudell
TalkingCat910@reddit
To me it’s like the vibes in the 90’s were like “I’m just being edgy and cool by being a POS ironically” and gradually it became unironic and people were just shitty as the norm. And it happened before the 90’s too but I’m just not old enough to remember. My mom for sure has been noticing it her whole life and she’s a boomer.
Professional-Cut-490@reddit
I was born in 70 . I really started to notice when trashy reality TV started in the 90s. It caused a a real degradation of culture. Social media and podcast bro culture made it worse.
The_Dead_Kennys@reddit
I’ve heard this phenomenon called “irony poisoning” and, well, the name is self-explanatory
aurorasnorealis317@reddit
Holy moly, I've been looking for a word or term for this, and here it is. Irony poisoning. Wow. Perfect.
96-62@reddit
That was always being manipulated by people who wanted it to be real. "It's ironic" is cope. Maybe the majority were coping, but it's cope.
bristlybits@reddit
be careful who you pretend to be
TalkingCat910@reddit
Yeah they got stuck in ahole mode and shifted norms.
coconutpiecrust@reddit
There is a saying in Russian that roughly translates as “the bigger your soul, the more likely someone will notice it and spit into it.”
thedonkeyvote@reddit
— Fyodor Dostoevsky
earthkincollective@reddit
That's the saying of a psychopathic society, frankly.
Runningoutofideas_81@reddit
Very corrosive.
JagBak73@reddit
What's the saying in Russian?
rmannyconda78@reddit
And my own soul was damaged heavily by that, I stick to myself because I’m trying to protect what’s left of it. I sometimes wonder what possessed people to become like this, though I suspect I know the answer
PyrocumulusLightning@reddit
Same here. Many regrets.
Spuckler_Cletus@reddit
This is the very root of the problem: believing that somehow only one side is guilty.
Mercurial891@reddit
False equivalencies, in this case, are more of a danger.
AtrociousMeandering@reddit
Really?
I care about other people, and if they did, there wouldn't be an issue. It doesn't just hurt because they're being utter fucking assholes TO me, it hurts because everything I try to do to help them is a scam and a manipulation tactic and not just a person helping.
Both sides are guilty? The side with empathy, who believes in kindness, is just as guilty as the people who don't have empathy and view kindness as weakness?
Guilt of fucking WHAT?!
Spuckler_Cletus@reddit
There are no innocent sides in our political discourse. The ones you believe to be empathetic (you actually mean “sympathetic”) and kind work evil and destruction at every turn. They simply veil their works in the language of kindness and goodness, etc. It’s amazing that people on both sides are so deluded. Our political class, with few exceptions, if absolutely rotten to the core.
Purplealegria@reddit
Sick rethuglican russian bot or troll.
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AtrociousMeandering@reddit
If you think we're talking about politicians, you're the problem here.
bristlybits@reddit
did you... did you just assume that your cult/political affiliation was mentioned? was that because whatever "side" you are on, discourages kindness and empathy?
maybe take a minute for a deep think on that.
resistandassist@reddit
Sadly, yes, it's all through Canada too. So much hate for Americans they have stereotyped as all one MAGA group. I guess it's their way of coping with walking away from the demise of an entire country without feeling any need to help. "Not our problem". Cruelty and apathy across the entire continent. The US isn't one homogeneous whole, there are lots of decent people here who were horrified and heart sick by what Trump has done and said, but they still group us all together as MAGA. They never once think about how they would want to be treated if our roles were reversed. Just go look at Alberta and other major Canadian cities, the far right is taking hold there too. Someday, it will be their turn and you know what, we will still be there to help them in whatever way we can. Don't let cruelty and malice win, fight for freedom and democracy wherever and however you can. Don't let your hate rule you, see beyond it to a better world and then try to build it one person at a time.
Purplealegria@reddit
Yep…lHe did that on purpose so that people in Canada would hate, despise and turn away from us when we need help the most.
Sad.
Sine_Fine_Belli@reddit
Yeah, same here honestly. It’s been getting worse and worse
VottDeFokk@reddit
It’s not just America…
imminentjogger5@reddit
social media is a huge reason why morals have been destroyed
Urshilikai@reddit
I think it's just capitalism. Like every other unquantifiable "externality" empathy is something to be exploited not fostered.
simpleisideal@reddit
You're both right. It was a culmination of things over decades.
This is a fantastic read from 1978 and is still relevant today:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38212112-the-culture-of-narcissism
Then profit-fueled social media acted as a catalyst for already degraded societies and broken political systems:
https://www.noemamag.com/the-last-days-of-social-media/
earthkincollective@reddit
Oh yes, capitalism for sure. Social media is just it's latest degeneracy.
Betty_Boi9@reddit
when times are tough and material condiditons get worse
people rally around people that narcissist and cold to feel safe....of course that safety is false but it the feeling they are after not
all-day-pj@reddit
I think to some degree, people accept narcissism because most people need a dangerous level of narcissism to survive the extreme state the rat race has gotten to.
This system says be a narcissist or get crushed. Most people aren't rebels. They're going to forgive you for doing what you have to and are expected to do.
The alternative is to demand we burn the system down. Most people aren't going to ask that of themselves and others. That's one reason why the slide into totalitarianism usually faces little resistance.
IOW: Forgiving someone for trying to survive is easier for most people than demanding someone sacrifice themselves to make a point.
nons-1995@reddit (OP)
No, narcissism isn't necessary. It's harm to those around you. I found out multiple narcissists I know literally have less life trauma than me, contrary to the "it comes from trauma! They had to do it to survive 🥺" narrative. They were just weak minded and wanted to do the easiest thing to get gains as opposed to getting gains the right way. So sick of the enablers. These are weak minded people that will throw you under the bus for a bag of chips. They make peoples' lives so horrible the people around them think about suicide. That's some ridiculous bullshit tbh
Purplealegria@reddit
Agreed….all one has to do is look around them to see that ONE of these toxic malignant narcissists are sacrificing their WHOLE DAMN COUNTRY and almost ALL of the people in it.…
For what?
PyrocumulusLightning@reddit
To "win"
That's all he cares about. I'm sure he'd tell you so if you asked him the right way.
Purplealegria@reddit
Disgusting…what a evil failed human he is. 🤢
all-day-pj@reddit
Many people over-correct. Some by a lot. And we don't live in a system that allows everyone to be selfless and non-competitive.
They might be weak-minded. So what? They are who they are. We can't just get rid of the weak-minded. We just have to try to help them and those harmed by them.
Yes they harm everyone around them. Most people are like that, some more so some less.
It's the system. We are cogs in the machine and the problem is the machine. Namely capitalism. Moloch.
earthkincollective@reddit
The system forces us to play the game, but that doesn't require selling our soul. It doesn't require adopting a narcissistic mindset, or agreeing with the fascist in our heads. That's called capitulation.
It's entirely possible to live with honor and uphold the values of the good (equality), no matter WHAT the system throws at us. Claiming otherwise is nothing but a cop out, the worst kind of excuse.
nons-1995@reddit (OP)
Lol are you one of those narcissists who ruined your relationships, so you're trying to get people back into your life to abuse again? You're all ridiculous. Typing the same way and everything.
And WTF??? The system does allow us to be selfless and non-competitive. You just have to accept the fact that having an addiction to comfort and self gratification is not compatible with doing the right thing most of the time. It's about choosing meaning, understanding life can be painful but the juice is worth the squeeze, over an empty life of comfort.
all-day-pj@reddit
how bougie lol
you're preaching to the choir.
i'm not saying your wrong. i'm telling you why it is this way and how it can be changed.
nons-1995@reddit (OP)
Boujie? Preaching to the choir? Lmao really? And you didn't answer my question about if you were one of those narcs trying to make people think what you do is okay, because people left you because of what you do. I think I see what's going on here. Blocketh 💅💅
earthkincollective@reddit
I agree with everything except your last paragraph. Acting like a selfish narcissistic asshole is literally the root of human evil, and it's never ok.
Susanoos_Wife@reddit
In our society, it seems like the worst people have the easiest time gaining power. Life for me has slowly gotten worse and worse over the last few years and if things keep on going the way they are now, I don't imagine I'll live very long.
Kinkajou4@reddit
It does feel like the very worst people are winning right now. It makes you wonder at the effort we put in to trying to be good people when power and money seems to go to hateful narcissists. I guess only caring about yourself and being a raging asshole does get you ahead in our society, sadly.
AbbeyRoadMomma@reddit
What are they winning? Money? All bullshit. As Jewel sang, “In the end, only kindness matters.”
I wouldn’t want to be one of these “raging assholes” for all the money on earth.
Far-Air8177@reddit
Well you need money to live.
I'm intensely worried about becoming homeless in the future and dying a terrible death of despair.
So ya in my position I'd do just about anything to have a tiny piece of their pie.
AbbeyRoadMomma@reddit
Fair enough, but what gets me about these assholes is how it’s never enough. 1 billion? Not enough, it needs to be more, more, more.
Kinkajou4@reddit
Power and influence to shape the world according to their shitty values is the winning I’m worried about
AspiringIdealist@reddit
Their winning the ability to shape the reality we all live in. Pretty big win to me.
killerqueen1010@reddit
The person you replied to was just pointing out the fact that they will still perish like every other living thing and so none of the perceived "winning" really amounts to anything once it's lights out.
AspiringIdealist@reddit
But that really doesn’t matter does it? That we all die someday?
If they have the voice to create what kind of world you and I get to live in, what kind of choices we get to make, how could you brush all that off as “bullshit?”
It’s a grave threat to everyone and it means that no, you can’t just ignore them and console yourself with “it’s stupid to grift” and still avoid their malign influence.
Purplealegria@reddit
Wow……its only a win if you have no morals, no heart and no soul.
AspiringIdealist@reddit
Of course and then by shaping are reality we have to suffer the ruined world that their reality created.
Runningoutofideas_81@reddit
And take down almost every other species too, especially the aesthetic ones.
Purplealegria@reddit
One of my favorite songs of hers, it used to make me cry from the simple beauty and truth of the lyrics…
True, but now sadly the ugly truth is….even after she sang those timeless lyrics, Jewel is A MAGA or a MAHA!!!
So what did all of that “in the end, only kindness matters…..and other bullshit assorted goodness, sweetness and light“ mean anyway?
The bish was full of shit.
And even worse, what the hell do people like me….who really believed in that type of stuff she sang about in her songs, and still do…… question it all, and make us look fake, disingenuous and bad.
Its like I feel lost now…..like what about the people who truly believed in those traits, the fruits of the spirit…like kindness, goodness, love and respect for ALL not some, generosity, caring, and the brotherhood of man that they taught about us as children and spoke so much of….what if we really believe “that in the end, only kindness matters?”……what the hell do we do NOW??…..when the evil has won, and “the nothing” has finally overtaken everything?
Im so sad and angry about all of this.
I will never get over it.
AbbeyRoadMomma@reddit
I didn’t know! Omg.
cool_waterz@reddit
I'm there as well. I want to remain human, in the best sense of the word, to the end.
bobjohnson1133@reddit
i feel this a lot...
the wonders of the world are WASTED on rich people. they travel everywhere and treat the planet like a playground.
if someone poor like me got to see some of the many wonders of the world, i would feel absolute AWE and WONDER. i would be in a rhapsody of reaction.
i've had recurring dreams my whole life about trying to get to london and paris, but always being on the outskirts, at night, with no money for cab, in some distant suburb. i can see the lights of the city bouncing off the clouds way in the distance. that's as close as i get...
and these fuckers fly there for weekend fun or rent out venice. they have no wonder. they have no awe. they've seen it all. most were born into taking everything beautiful around them for granted.
this world is stupid. it's upside down. it's top-heavy. the cretins see the wonders and squander beauty, while people full of soul scrape change together for a shitty meal from a kwik-trip next to a strip mall of cardboard ugliness incarnate.
Sine_Fine_Belli@reddit
Yeah, when I was on vacation, I was grateful, feeling awe and wonder and still grateful for able to visit those places
Sknowles12@reddit
Wonderful comment
Far-Air8177@reddit
I don't mean to detract from your point but you can currently get flights to London for $130 on a budget airline ( norse) . Who knows how long such cheap flights will continue to exist. You can also get hostel beds there for $20 or so a night.
And Paris is a terrible place with some of the worlds rudest people ,very high crime and theft, grime ,and it literally smells like piss. Not missing much at least there.
CompostYourFoodWaste@reddit
I hope you get there someday. And that there's still something left to see.
bill_lite@reddit
I've had that same stranded on the outskirts dream too!
Cheers comrade raises Kwik Trip cup
KlikketyKat@reddit
I think part of the reason is that a career in politics is particularly attractive to the wrong sort of people and few, if any, countries have set up their political system so as to effectively weed them out. Things that come to mind are profligate waste of taxpayer money on extravagant activities, susceptibility to bribery and corruption, nepotism, laziness, and hiding a lack of accountability and/or progress behind a "no comment" remark.
earthkincollective@reddit
Yep. Those who desperately want power are precisely the ones who are the most motivated to work to seize it. The rest of us simply don't have the desire to dominate everyone else.
BearBL@reddit
its so weird because my thoughts went to this exact topic today when i was left alone with my thoughts for awhile. its like you comment read my mind.
SimpleAsEndOf@reddit
Every day, I read or watch a lot of right wing media to see what their latest Fascist Tactics/Philosophy or Psychology they are using today..... and to be honest they deploy a very wide variety of cruelty/malice that you see below....
These are all Fascist quotes from Adolf Hitler
I have written most of them because hardly even a single person on Reddit seems to know any of these, and that's a real shame....
I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature
Brutality creates Respect
The Strong Man is Mightiest
Life doesn't forgive weakness
Strength lies not in defence but in attack
Accuse the Enemy of that which you are guilty
The very first essential for success is a perpetually constant and regular employment of violence
Strength lies not in defence but in attack
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way round, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise
The victor will never be asked if he told the truth
It is not truth that matters, but victory
Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction
We have to put a stop to the idea that it is a part of everybody's civil rights to say whatever he pleases
Conscience is a Jewish invention
Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice
I am liberating man from the degrading chimera known as `conscience'
Democracy, the deceitful theory that the Jew would insinuate - namely, that theory that all men are created equal
Pacifism is simply undisguised cowardice
The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it
Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live
God helps only those who are prepared and determined to help themselves
Pacifism is simply undisguised cowardice
ADOLF HITLER
search Hitler azquotes.com
resistandassist@reddit
Many of these are derived from Nietzschean philosophy which has even made it to Nietzschean Zionism:
Nietzschean refers to the philosophical ideas and theories of Friedrich Nietzsche, which advocate for overcoming nihilism and traditional moral values through a reevaluation of values based on the concept of the "will to power" and the idea of the "Übermensch" or superman. Nietzscheanism emphasizes individual strength, creativity, and the affirmation of life.
Nietzschean Zionism was a movement arising from the influence that the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche had on Zionism and several of its influential thinkers. Zionism was the movement for the attainment of freedom for the Jewish people through the establishment of a Jewish state. Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy was popular among Jewish intellectuals, and therefore incorporated into Zionism relatively effortlessly. Friedrich Nietzsche's influence was expressed itself by a desire to move away from the Jewish past into an empowering future for the Hebraic New Man, the adoption of his ideas necessitating the Jews to surpass the antiquarian Jewish identity that had a rabbinical consciousness at its center.
SimpleAsEndOf@reddit
Thanks for taking the time to explain.
To me, he was a fucking madman who didn't believe in equality and his philosophy indirectly caused a lot of suffering across Europe.
He doesn't inspire anything good in me, but he gives great succour to those who believe in their own superiority and exceptionalism. I would have considered him...
As Albert Einstein later wrote...
I noted that Nietzsche fell ill/paralysed for his last 10 years. I wonder whether he ever developed empathy/mercy etc? or did he feel very ubermensch/egotistical until hos last breath.
In terms of the Dark Triad, Nietzsche probably scores quite highly across Narcissism, Machiavellianism and Psychopathy. Admittedly, I didn't notice too much Sadism (Dark Tetrad) about him.
Honestly I don't know anything about Zionism back then, I thought it was a more recent Political movement.
resistandassist@reddit
I just thought it was an interesting tidbit of history, but you're absolutely right - Hitler was an absolute monster right up there with Stalin, Trump, and Netanyahu. How humanity survives the next ten years is beyond me.
You only have control over yourself so be the change you want to see I guess. Hold true to yourself and your ideals and concentrate on what you *can* do, not on what you can't. We can all do more to help each other so if nothing else, ignore the insane politics and find like-minded people you can network with.
SimpleAsEndOf@reddit
Yes work locally all you can to build resilience and maybe learn some new skills like ham radio.
Having said that be aware of the latest terrible news in America. It may well affect me soon too.
This order NSPM 7 drafted by Stephen Miller and signed by Trump, gives the government the ability to go after, target, and arrest virtually anyone now.
https://v.redd.it/upzzkqqta4tf1
NSPM-7 an executive order that creates a legal framework to investigate and prosecute people for "domestic terrorism" using definitions so broad they could apply to almost any political opposition or protest activity.
If you criticize capitalism, support LGBTQ+ rights, advocate for immigration reform, or call out authoritarian behavior, you could be labeled a domestic terrorist
They can investigate you for talking about ideas they don't like, before any violence occurs. Organizing a protest? That could be "radicalization."
Any non-profit, charity, or organization they dislike can lose tax-exempt status. They can freeze bank accounts. They can investigate anyone who donates to causes they oppose.
If you work for, donate to, or are associated with any organization they target, you can be investigated. This is classic guilt-by-association.
Universities teaching critical theory, climate science, or anything they disagree with could be targeted.
Protesting that blocks traffic? Civil disorder. Occupying a building? Trespass and domestic terrorism. Sharing information about public officials? Potential doxing.
resistandassist@reddit
I am surprised they didn't include breathing, they included everything else right down to the kitchen sink. This is so depressing, one is literally just a slave and property of the state now. We would have more rights in China or Russia. We don't even have freedom of speech or basic human rights anymore. While totally not legal for a long list of reasons, it may as well be when none of our political representatives have or will lift a finger to do anything about it. They sold us out - all of them.
SimpleAsEndOf@reddit
There are times when I despair and sometimes I wonder if
https://v.redd.it/o61ztkw0jcpf1
The evidence suggests not.
This is one of many examples, eg - you don't need to read the entire list of 800 convicted Republican Pedophiles' names to realise there's no equivalence.
earthkincollective@reddit
Those quotes read like a handbook for being a narcissistic psychopath.
SimpleAsEndOf@reddit
Both Hitler and Trump are Malignant Narcissists.
see Unfit the Movie - the Psychology of Donald Trump.
Purplealegria@reddit
Yes, 🍊had moustaches book Main Kampf as a little light reading next to his bedside…and his father and grandfather were german nazis…”they have to be carefully taught” as the song said is so right.
Physical-Staff1411@reddit
Seek help
Spuckler_Cletus@reddit
This is as old as recorded history. It’s part of the life cycle of all empires. As decadence and excess increase, people become lovers of themselves.
Purplealegria@reddit
This.
To me, Its the out of control self aggrandizement of SM, and the incessant making and packaging of yourself and your life into “a brand or a product” that is constantly for sale or consumption 24/7…..that has killed our modern way of life.
In my parents and grandparents day, We used to have community with each other, in church, in school, with family, friends, and neighbors….we cared about each other, give a damn on a micro level..in your own little neighborhood.
Now?…..Its the church of the self, and every man is his own preacher…and savior.
Is it any wonder its all gone to absolute SHIT??
CompostYourFoodWaste@reddit
Now we have Identies. And they'll tell you all about how special theirs is.
Purplealegria@reddit
I don't care about that…let them have their identities…that is fine and on them…
To me its not that they have “identities” that bothers me, I just don't want to hear about ANYONE with ANY identity frankly, not to that extent…not like they are a brand or a commodity…Im too GenX for that crap.
Why cant people Just go away and live their damn life…I mean not for clicks and likes, not for fame, attention, or engagement, I mean just be…and don't push yourself, the shit you are selling, or your “brand” on me or all of us 24/7…why is that so hard?
We did it as GenXers for years, and the people before us did it for generations, millennia even….
Wow when you really sit and reflect on where we have come from as a society to now in this sad state, and how fast the computer/internet age has devolved us as a species?? Its really WILD….its enough to really depress you…we are really in the shitter.
EnlightenedSinTryst@reddit
It’s the lifecycle of systems selecting for more efficient reinforcement of chemical reward loops
feo_sucio@reddit
I think a lot of people operate with complete ignorance of their situation and/or a naive hope that things will eventually turn out okay, coupled with an underestimation of their actual predicament. Very few are collapse-aware or just see their lives as a random series of events that they simply fall into as opposed to looking at the long term future and forming informed decisions and conclusions about how to proceed.
I think anyone who’s celebrated a pregnancy announcement in the post-covid era is a rock stupid motherfucker.
Urshilikai@reddit
I think this is one of those situations, like how when polled 80+% of americans want free healthcare or guaranteed jobs programs or whatever, but then half of those people will remain lifelong conservative voters. It's the propaganda. For some people they are willing to play along just to get their bag. Some people are willing to play along maybe to change the system from inside.
But most of all I think it's a lack of imagination. The Capitalist Realism argument is what I always come back to. If someone even starts asking questions about the system: how does it work, how is it reinforced, who benefits, how do you tear something down as amorphous as Capital; I suspect a lot of people just give up and believe this is, in some sense, the best there is. Nothing can be better. Smarter people than them designed it, certainly they won't be able to change it. And that lack of imagination is exactly what kills us.
Lately I've been prodding people in UBI threads about "what if instead of giving up on work and become a consumer slave on UBI we just make work suck less and be more human and equitable?". The most common response I get is the inability to even question that work could look different than it is today. Politics could look different. The culture could look different. But Capital is so good at forcing you to pseudoimagine alternatives with the commoditized affects of previous countercultures that there's no room left to imagine something different.
Unplug. Simplify. Imagine. The only thing even more slippery than Capital, that even it can't grasp is
Sine_Fine_Belli@reddit
The only possible economic alternatives that would replace capitalism would be economic democracy, democratic economics, library based economics, gift exchange economics and other economic alternatives that could replace capitalism
CaptainBirdEnjoyer@reddit
The last time I was over an old friends house was to play DND like two years ago. One of their dogs peed on the floor. He grabbed both dogs, put their head by the pee and swatted them. I saw him a year later and him and his wife were having relationship issues because he forgot to pay the electric bill for an entire year. Him and I used to talk about dying in the water wars in the future and fully know how bleak things are getting.
They announced they were expecting in June. It was very hard to muster up the excitement, but I can mask when it's needed.
CompostYourFoodWaste@reddit
You don't have to pretend excitement.
vinegar@reddit
Did she put his head next to the outlet and swat him?
Purplealegria@reddit
Agreed.
Positivity bias/Normalcy bias…
and ostrich syndrome will be the death of us all.
xena_lawless@reddit
Every human society has understood the need to deal with corrupt bullies and psychopaths, but the corrupt and outdated colonial systems we've inherited prevent us from doing that effectively, by design.
Naturally, the corrupt bullies and psychopaths have come to dominate, so we don't actually have a choice but to overthrow them and the systems that allow them to dominate and brutally exploit everyone else.
The only available choices are tyranny or revolution, so the only real option is revolution.
BitchfulThinking@reddit
Exactly! Even non human animals. Chimpanzees will eat another chimp for being greedy. Female bears regularly fight violent males to protect their offspring, and elephants are 4B.
Prey animals at least try to escape when they're being threatened, and sometimes their buddies even team up and help. The unaware gazelle that just stays at the watering hole thinking everything will turn out fine, is eaten.
Humans... have forgotten how nature works, and that we're also part of it.
deadface008@reddit
People often cling to narcissism not because they don't have values, but because they can't do anything about the world's constant violation of them. Speaking from a first-person perspective rlly. Kids are the most important thing in the world to me, and if I could give every kid a perfect childhood, I would have done it a million times over. I just don't have the power to do much more than crank out my 9-5 and smoke. The economic structure in this country has become so opressive that I fear the "human battery" phase has already begun. We no longer live, we just exist, and fuel the war machine. You can't do jack shit outside of your house these days without going into debt, and this flaw is by design. If you think I'm full of shit, visit some other country and be reminded of what it means to be human. I was just in Cancún recently. Don't ask how I paid for it. People elsewhere do not live to work, but work to live. They have hobbies, relationships, and lives. We are narcisisstic here because there is nothing else we can do. For this reason, innovation is dying and industries are going stagnant. It amazes me that I'm one of the smartest people I know these days. I was the class clown. I got a fucking 17 on the ACT. Things should not be like this. People are running out of reasons to care.
mephalasweb@reddit
Tbh this has been the case in America since it's inception. I think it's just more obvious now because the targets for that particular violence, BIPOC (especially if they are queer/trans), have been the primary targets for this brand of violence for the longest. Now that America's fascism is leaking into lives of people previously shielded from the worst of it, it seems so unexpected and new. But when you've seen people justify the murder of people like you and the perception of you as unnecessarily angry and entitled for wanting basic human rights/treatment since childhood?
These violent attitudes just aren't all that new. If anything, it's pretty routine to me. Other folks just can't avoid what they've enabled for so long - and many of them just aren't questioning what it says about themselves that they could ignore this at all.
96-62@reddit
Yes, that's been going on on the republican side for a while now. They just don't belive anybody believes in helping the homeless.
LongTimeChinaTime@reddit
I defend the dignity of broken humans. I refuse to assert that someone is inhuman just because they’re incapable of sticking to the script or because they’re assholes.
Now that doesn’t mean I won’t defend myself against them instinctually,
But once a society has lost its heart and ability to forgive, then everything else behind that falls apart. I’m surely one to know this.
resistandassist@reddit
Please do not stereotype all Americans as being the same or being all bad. That's like saying all Muslims are bad or all Jews are bad, it's the direct path to hell on earth. Judge each person individually, not based on their geographic location. Do not be cruel to an entire group just because it's easier for you. You cannot build a solid foundation for a bright future using the building blocks of hate.
burner207707@reddit
This post is acutely accurate.
BlueAndYellowTowels@reddit
There are aspects of this I agree with but the framing I don’t.
As a rule, I don’t like pathologize entire populations.
I think you’re correct, where I diverge is I don’t think it’s narcissism. I think it’s just individualism and the inevitable conditioning that comes from capitalism.
Broadly capitalism enforces a hierarchy. It is maybe, if we’re being very generous and choose to ignore the reality, a self organizing hierarchy but a hierarchy nonetheless.
The fundamental problem with hierarchies is they are structures that eventually harden into rigid things. In turn these rigid systems outline and define what is an “outsider”, what is at the “top” and finally those that “serve top”.
In capitalism, money does this. Capital does this. Which has done very little to alleviate old world bigotries.
You know what’s an interesting question? Why does slavery work in capitalism? Why does it fit so nicely into the system?
In a truly revolutionary economic system, slavery should be impossible. Both literal and wage slavery. Because the internal logic of capitalism isn’t different, really, from feudalism.
You trade God and Monarch for Stock Valuation and CEO.
But fundamentally underneath you have deeply isolating undemocratic systems. Systems that tell everyone they’re special within norms. That tells people what they can believe but within certain options. Tells people where to go but within the preselected paths.
You know why the trans boogeyman scares so many people? Because it’s evidence that… everything we have been conditioned to believe is rigid and static and “self evident” is in fact malleable and soft. That, in a single moment, if you chose to… you could just reject the idea of gender or even, just actualize yourself as another gender.
It might sound like a bizarre tangent, but at its root… trans rights are a fight against hierarchy.
To use a metaphor. Trans rights are flowers on the floor of forest filled with life where every living thing has its place and purpose and version of happiness. Capitalism and the maintenance of heterosexual norms is a machine where every cog is unique in a machine. But they must be designed in service of the shape of the neighboring cogs they must all turn such that they all align with purpose of the machine.
That is where we are. We are in a world not full of narcissistic people. We are in a system that is a self organizing hierarchy whose purpose is to align all of us toward the enrichment of the few and this hierarchy tells us who the outsiders and our enemies so that our fear of them has us preserving those who benefit rather than those who are are exploited.
Hierarchies are very oppressive things and the fact that we have an entire political philosophy around preserving them is a threat to wellbeing of every human being on this planet.
earthkincollective@reddit
I completely agree with you about hierarchies, but that's fundamentally tied to narcissism. I wrote a whole essay just about that connection, if you're interested.
https://open.substack.com/pub/earthkin/p/narcissism-is-driving-humanity-to?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=2jbi5z
BlueAndYellowTowels@reddit
Most disagreements come from how we define things.
So narcissism has definitions.
One is: excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one's physical appearance.
And the other also is: selfishness, involving a sense of entitlement, a lack of empathy, and a need for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
(The way I found these for the sake of time was through a simple “define narcissism” in Google).
I understand narcissism as either of these things.
The reason I don’t think narcissism is the problem is because too much of what makes someone successful in our system (capitalism) aligns with narcissism. Which means, it’s hard to tell if people are narcissists or if the internal logic of our system conditions people to align with narcissistic thinking or behaviour.
A simple example is any office job or environment. It has all the constraints and incentives put in place to encourage people to act like narcissists. But that doesn’t mean they are narcissists.
In an office, in corporate culture, perception is everything. Also, everyone is competing against everyone. While corporate offices use the ceremonies of collectivists, talking about teams and openness and collaboration, underpinning all of that is competition and the reality is that if you fail you will be fired. There’s that underlying economic “violence” waiting at all moments.
And so what we see as a result is people aligning themselves with that system. In truth corporate systems are inherently fascistic systems. Corporations and Fascist states have a lot of in common. Cult of personality, top down, focus on ceremony and tradition, male oriented and deeply antagonistic to violations of expected norms, expansionist, exploitative and mechanistic and process oriented.
…and so, as a matter of survival or maybe a form of sickness, people eventually internalize the logic of the system which effectively dehumanizes them and others.
It takes a very destructive level of conditioning to see immigrants as something to be feared. To see outsiders and other cultures are dangerous. It takes a destructive level of conditioning to walk past the homeless every day. It takes a destructive level of conditioning to ignore the fact that many homeless are in fact, people who are very sick and the system’s doesn’t include their humanity.
The logic of our system and the subsystems we live in: capitalism and corporations, is one where people are commodifying every aspect of their humanity to survive and that commodification forces us to be hyper focused on ourselves because WE are product. We are the thing being sold and the logic of the system tells us only the desirable products get sold.
Is it narcissistic to be that way? Yeah. But are people narcissistic? No.
I’m a new dad. I have daughter 11 months old. I came across these meme about parenting online that I think sums up what it means to be in the system.
The text of the meme was “You’re a morning person with a baby the same way you’re a runner with a bear chasing you.”.
People are narcissistic because the system requires it and if they don’t align, then the internal logic of the system will punish people with violence: poverty.
Poverty is a byproduct of this system. It’s not a bug, it’s a feature and its design is explicit. If you fail, you will starve and struggle. You will invite violence upon yourself for not conforming.
This is, ultimately, why I can’t say all this is a result of just narcissism. Because another byproduct of the system is loneliness, depression and alienation. Millions of people trust nothing. Millions of people carry deep sadness. Because they have to live as cruel people in a cruel system because kindness isn’t profitable.
It’s not a coincidence that in some circles in Western culture that empathy is considered a bad thing. That’s the internal logic of capitalism and fascism. You cannot feel for others. You should put yourself in their shoes and see the world from their perspective. Don’t even attempt it. Because ultimately, that’s what builds solidarity.
That’s why, for me anyways, it’s not narcissism. I think it’s too narrow or too simple an explanation. I think people are as they are because their spirits are misaligned with the intent of the surrounding systems which are designed to be cruel which leads people to endure a spiritual decay and then death. Because cruelty diminishes us all.
earthkincollective@reddit
While this definition makes sense from the root etymology of the word, the common usage of the word goes far beyond this, along the lines of the second definition you gave, which is based on how the term is used in psychology.
If you want to stick to this first definition that's fine, but you'll be literally talking about something else entirely than the rest of us, so it doesn't exactly facilitate communication.
Of course narcissism as defined as mere admiration of oneself isn't a problem. But the psychological definition makes it clear that it IS a problem, both interpersonally and in a society-wide level.
Yes, the capitalist system is set up to encourage narcissistic behavior. That doesn't make narcissism not a problem, it's a massive problem IN AND OF ITSELF.
Again, this is a MASSIVE PROBLEM. Narcissism being normalized doesn't make it ok, it makes our entire society fucking toxic. And as I clearly laid out in the essay I shared earlier, it is leading humanity towards extinction. The problem is THAT big.
Again, you're using the first definition you offer but not the second. By that definition I'd agree with you. By the definition the rest of us are using, there are many people who absolutely ARE narcissistic - to at least some degree.
No. Simply, no. The system does force people into compliance to stay alive, but for most that simply means being a wage slave. For some that means advertising oneself on social media, but that in itself doesn't make a person narcissistic. Neither does pumping yourself up for the boss during a performance review.
Becoming narcissistic isn't even a conscious choice, for anyone. It results from deep ego wounding and the adoption of a toxic belief system, usually in childhood.
What our system IS doing is actively selecting for narcissism in the halls of power, because those toxic traits are inherently compatible with the logic of the system. This affects the rest of us through a trickle down fashion, in how the decisions of bosses and politicians affect all of us, but this doesn't force the average worker to "become a narcissist" (as if they even could just choose to do that).
Agreed, that just proves the last point I made.
Why? You just jump from one statement of fact to this conclusion. Why? Narcissism is a thing as defined by psychology, and as we've both established the system loves to hand power to those people.
So the logical conclusion here is that the narcissism has expanded far beyond just affecting individuals as a personality disorder and has become a massive, society-wide problem thanks to capitalism. The exact opposite conclusion of your "narcissism isn't a problem". 🤦
Conscious_Yard_8429@reddit
I enjoyed reading your ideas and the way you developed your arguments, but I wonder when you say Is it narcissistic to be that way? Yeah. But are people narcissistic? No the whole point is that the boardrooms are full of narcissists (in the second definition you provide) who actually create the dominant culture in the first place. If just a few percent of the population are true narcissists and rise almost automatically to the top, for whatever reason, the rest of the population are simply emulating a behaviour seen to be "successful" to the detriment of society as a whole. But they become what they may decry in others.
BlueAndYellowTowels@reddit
I think it’s true but not complete. I don’t completely buy that boardrooms and the places where powerful people reside are exclusively filled with narcissists.
I think they’re filled with all kinds of people. Some are “True Believers” of the Capitalist system. Some are corrupted agents of change. Some are sycophants and sociopaths. Some are psychopaths. Some are just regular folks, who are surviving that recognize that it’s better to be on top than on the bottom.
I don’t think a singular pathology has claim to power. I think a lot of different motivations can put people in the places that allow their comfort to be maintained by cruelty.
This is even true on a global scale. Whereas Western comforts are subsidized by foreign cruelty.
For some people, it’s not purely a question of selfishness. Some people authentically believe it’s the natural order and that those at the bottom belong there.
I just don’t see it as a purely narcissistically driven system. There’s a lot going on and some parts of it are more than just selfishness and greed.
commesicetaithier@reddit
Individualism doesn't force you to be an utter shithead. And neither does narcissism. The real problem is sadism, which corrupts all systems just out of pure malice, nothing compares. There's really some moustache twirling evil out there. There are things done that are completely redundant for maintenance of the system. They happen simply because some sick men enjoy making others suffer.
BlueAndYellowTowels@reddit
“Individualism does force you to be an utter shithead.”
From my perspective, I think shitheadedneas is the full actualization of individualism.
There’s no forcing in that process. It’s just the internal logic of completely focusing everything you do on self-reliance and independence.
incite_@reddit
Well said. At least in America where I’ve lived my whole life, things are becoming more and more “every man for themselves good luck”
earthkincollective@reddit
I've been noticing too just how much the power in our modern world is held in the grip of the MOST toxic people, narcissists and psychopaths all of them.
14Pleiadians@reddit
Just because I have empathy doesn't mean I'm a pacifist.
bristlybits@reddit
these people have never watched ole yeller and understood the ending.
NiceSupermarket7724@reddit
This phenomenon is predicted and described at length in an American context in Octavia Butler’s Parable of the Sower.
Gyirin@reddit
Soemthing went seriously wrong at some point in history.
zedroj@reddit
ya, humans survived the asteroid
Winter_Screen2458@reddit
This trend is not new. I have been explaining it to anyone who is interested for many years now. shit floats
Allianya@reddit
Everyone is trapped in their own delusions of grandeur that they'd rather let destroy the world than take an L.
How did the people who created video games get into this mess in the first place I do not wish to know.
Dear_Document_5461@reddit
What does "the people that created video games" supposed to mean and relate to the post?
Allianya@reddit
If you know you know. If you don't it's fine. It's fucking stupid anyway. I have to be vague because I've stepped on enough toes and know the risks.
I just wanted my Internet to be my Internet
CaptainBirdEnjoyer@reddit
Yes that was definitely a turning point in making the internet complete shit. Had to drag a buddy down from going further down those depths during that time. Thankfully, he came around.
__shallal__@reddit
Look to Afghanistan's turmoil for the last few decades.
rematar@reddit
The grave of the country will be marked with a discarded gravy boat.