What would have happened without Nato bombing Serbia?
Posted by Gentle_Frogg3579@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 262 comments
What and why in your opinion had happened if Nato did not bomb Belgrade 1999? Would the war had continued longer? Would more or alternatively less lives have lost without them?
Severe_Reception1@reddit
Another genocide.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
No evidence of that, whats very well documented is how the violence escalated post NATO bombs.
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
You are living in a fantasy land. There is copious amounts of evidence, testimony and so forth.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
not really, we can look into the Hague documents and everything released back then. There was so much missinformation its hilarious back then.
You fail to understand the implifications of genocide, you cant seriously believe that serbs had the goal to exterminate every single albanian in kosovo. The causualties would look very different.
Ofc its ur choice to spread nonsense around because ur emotional but this wont alter facts, regardless if you like them or not.
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
That was quick for a bot.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Ofc its ur choice to spread nonsense around because ur emotional but this wont alter facts, regardless if you like them or not.
drjnn@reddit
That’s exactly where you are dealing in bad faith, when you say “you can’t srsly believe that Serbs had the goal to exterminate every single Albanian” and taking into account your arrogant tone, it downplays everything that happened. You had more than ten thousand civilians butchered, countless rapes, entire villages looted then burned and more than a million people displaced.
We could also talk about Vaso Čubrilovic̀ and his offsprings and the effort they put to advocate for the expulsion and more of Albanians from Kosova. So call it ethnic cleansing or whatever but the facts are still there.
Yeah and gfu with your tone and your superiority complex.
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
ICTY (International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia) Based in The Hague, it indicted and convicted multiple Serbian and Yugoslav officials — including Slobodan Milošević, Milan Milutinović, Nikola Šainović, and others — for war crimes and crimes against humanity in Kosovo. ICTY judgments and trial records provide the most authoritative documentation of systematic killings, expulsions, and ethnic cleansing. UNMIK (United Nations Mission in Kosovo) Took over administration after the war (June 1999). UNMIK’s early human rights reports and forensic work confirmed mass graves, mass displacement, and systematic village destruction. OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) – Kosovo Verification Mission (KVM) Before and after NATO’s intervention, OSCE monitors documented widespread attacks on civilians, forced expulsions, and human rights abuses. Their 1999 report, Kosovo/Kosova: As Seen, As Told, is one of the most detailed contemporaneous records. UNHCR (United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees) Recorded the mass exodus of over 800,000 Albanian refugees, confirming large-scale ethnic cleansing and targeting of civilians.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Ofc its ur choice to spread nonsense around because ur emotional but this wont alter facts, regardless if you like them or not.
as said no evidence of genocide nor the intent to exterminate all albanians.
Doggerous@reddit
I can send photos of my village burned down if you want. Very rural and had no conflicts at all, but all the houses were burned so we would flee away out of fear.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Didn’t know burning down houses can be labeled as genocide.
Doggerous@reddit
You have too much water in your head my friend, there is well documented crimes with pictures, videos, interviews of families and also confirmed by the hague and third parties. Of course Serbian media is not going to admit it, it would be stupid of them, but doesnt mean it didnt happen. And coming here in the Balkans sub labeled as Austrian which I can 1000% know that you are not even Austrian, and disagreeing with something our eyes have seen and our fathers have told many things about, some of them can't get enough sleep because of it anymore is just disrespectful. So I suggest, next time before you say something as stupid, go to a university and talk to a professor, use google, read some books maybe, watch some interviews, but dont ever come talking nonsense you have been trained to do, or god help you are just this stupid who never got attention and now seeks to dispute every claim to everything cause thats how you learned to get attention.
Pjeter_Bogdani@reddit
You are repeating yourself lol, are you a bot?
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
More facts
Human Rights Watch (HRW) Conducted extensive field investigations in 1999–2000. Their reports (Under Orders: War Crimes in Kosovo, 2001) confirmed systematic war crimes by Yugoslav and Serbian forces, including summary executions, sexual violence, and mass deportations.
Amnesty International Documented crimes against humanity and violations of the laws of war, based on on-site interviews, forensic data, and survivor testimonies.
International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) Registered tens of thousands of missing persons and documented widespread violations of humanitarian law, including attacks on civilians and denial of aid access. Forensic Investigations by NATO and Allied States After 1999, international teams from the U.S., U.K., Spain, and other NATO members conducted forensic exhumations of mass graves across Kosovo, corroborating witness testimony and ICTY evidence.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
as said no evidence of genocide nor the intent to exterminate all albanians.
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
ICTY: “Final Report to the Prosecutor by the Committee Established to Review the NATO Bombing Campaign” (2000) – outlines the factual basis for NATO’s intervention.
OSCE: “Kosovo/Kosova: As Seen, As Told” (December 1999) – eyewitness documentation of the ethnic cleansing campaign.
HRW: “Under Orders: War Crimes in Kosovo” (2001) – comprehensive field-based analysis.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Hague has become a joke already.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
You mean other than Srebrenica one?
Infinite-Cycle2626@reddit
Lol
Jazzlike_Painter_118@reddit
People against NATO would create another talking point devoid of context and use it anyway.
Ath3riss@reddit
The better question would be, what wouldn't happen if Serbia didn't attack all of its neighboring countries.
Jcufi@reddit
Learn geography before making comments such as this.
Ath3riss@reddit
What do you mean?
Jcufi@reddit
"All of its neighbouring countries"
We didnt.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Bosnia and Serbia would probably make it to EU by now. Former Yugoslav countries were not in such a bad economic situation before the war. I remember in my childhood when traveling for holidays through Macedonia and everything seemed better and in order.
dogiii_original@reddit
They would have killed and raped like they did in Bosnia. Nato was rigjt to bomb them....a little too late but yeah...they bombed them for a few days and they keep on whining... imagine if they were besieged like we were...lol
One_Impression_363@reddit
The problem with this mentality is it completely ignores all the atrocities done by others in the Balkans, who basically went punishment free. The stuff that happened to Bosnians by Bosnian Serbs is terrible. Where was anyone when the Austro-Hungarians raped, pillaged and killed people in the Balkans for centuries? where was anyone to bomb the Croatians when they went full blown Ustase in both WW2 and Yugoslavian civil war for example? Is ethnically cleansing Krajina considered “ok” but Kosovo not? Why? this is where the hypocrisy lies, and the Serbs are used as the ultimate blame for everything that happened in the Balkans while others remain “guilt free”.
dogiii_original@reddit
My guy goes back 500+ years to justify his friends killing and raping 2 years ago lol
One_Impression_363@reddit
Do you know how to do math? It’s 2025. Not 2525.
dogiii_original@reddit
Nah let's go back to the year 882 before Christ 😂 What a subhuman intellect looks like...So let me ask u how do d u and ur familysurvive ww2? U must be very old but im glad ur all ok
One_Impression_363@reddit
You’re talking about the 90s and I’m talking about the 90s. Perfect example of double standards on your end.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Only that the atrocities kinda got out of hand after the bombing, are we gonna ignore that ?
Aioli_Tough@reddit
The only reason Serbs care is because it was Serb victims.
They committed atrocities with intent throughout the Balkans, then have the balls to cry foul.
mermaidworker@reddit
Sorry, but it's still horrible that civilians died in bombing, while the war criminals who were most responsible were hiding and nothing happened to them in the NATO intervention.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
74 days of bombing by hundreds of planes and thousands of missions and there around 1k-2k Serbian casualties including Albanian convoys by accident.
In my country, in 74 days as much are casualties of car accidents.
I think bombing by Nato was a national trauma for Serbs because they were humiliated in the face of all world, not because of casualties. I mean, 40 countries joined forces to bomb your country. Even in Afganistan and Iraq coalition ralied less countries.
Also. As a matter of fact, it is even more shamefull that a country like Yugoslavia which played both sides and was regarded as helm of diplomacy during cold war, ended up the most antagonized country in the end.
Jcufi@reddit
Why is it our fault you guys suck at driving?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
To claim insurance.
mermaidworker@reddit
I mean, you might have a point as well. But what I am saying is that the individuals who lost loved ones during that time have the right to be sad and in these situations it's hard to think things rationally.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
You bet. I was 9 when war happened, and we were not at fear here. Yet i know the sound of sonic booms, apaches and chinoks flying close, but fortunately they were on our side and we did not hear the sound of bombs. I bet it was terrifying to hear those.
Footage of nato planes mistakenly blasting couple of our bunkers in Kukes and seeing tones of concrete flying up in air, made us realize that iwe had been on wrong side during cold war 😂
Aioli_Tough@reddit
You can mourn the dead without white-washing ethnic cleansing.
Those peoples deaths are a direct consequence of the Serbian societies choice to support Milosevic and his fascist ideology that destroyed Yugoslavia.
If they want someone to blame for those deaths, its themselves, because their gov. actions led directly to the intervention.
For every civilian Serb killed, there are 5 Albanian Civilians killed, but they would have you believe they are the only ones who had to suffer.
mermaidworker@reddit
Yes, of course you're right. However, each family's tragedy is still a tragedy for them. And it's hard to be rational in the moment and tell yourself how things truly were.
Aioli_Tough@reddit
When tyranny is law, rebellion becomes duty.
RedditAnonDude@reddit
After starting the war by attacking Slovenia, then Croatia and B i H, and all of the ensuing death and destruction, and then attacking Kosovo, with never a single attack on Serbian territory, you will forgive me if I have no sympathy for the few weeks of terror endured by the citizens of Beograd. If anyone should be upset, it should be the Chinese, for having their embassy bombed “accidentally “. I shed no tears for people who sat idly by while their countrymen bombed Vukovar, Dubrovnik, and Sarajevo.
mermaidworker@reddit
Of course that's also valid, all I am saying is that to me it's still I just that their government criminals were safe and hidingwhile innocent civilians were dying-that's horrible to think about. For me, at least. But it's just my perspective.
Lgkp@reddit
”OMAJGAD WE AR DE VIKTIMS!!!” ”NAJTO BAMB USS 1999!!!”
https://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Areas/Serbia/30-years-after-Serbia-in-denial-about-genocide-238929
In the middle of Belgrade btw
Ok_Tomatillo_3811@reddit
This!!!!
Shadnu@reddit
Yes, people like to ignore that part
dogiii_original@reddit
U reap what u sow
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
No one is hiding crimes agains Serbs,, those are well recorded by internatiinals, just that such crimes were not a policy of Uck or Kosovo government. Even if individuals were willing to do such, it was bad to our image and frankly, we lacked the capabilities. There were 50k nato troops, i doubt they would allow cleansing to happen.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Yes, the Serbian athrocities against Albanians. It was now or never. The time was limited.
Rider_167@reddit
Glory to Albania!
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Slava Ukraine
Jcufi@reddit
Yeah, you're so smart.
The difference was we got bombed by NATO. You got bombed by us.
We were stronger than you, and NATO was 10000x times stronger than us.
FakeStefanovsky@reddit
Everyone listen, the mudžahedin is speaking
dogiii_original@reddit
better Midzahedin than a serb lol but still u know im right and can't win the argument 👍
FakeStefanovsky@reddit
I didn't realize we were having an argument
dogiii_original@reddit
Yeah Im not surprised haha
redikan@reddit
They still killed and raped even with NATO intervention but I get ur point
Chocolategogi@reddit
What baffle me here it's the words used in some of the comments. The serbian this the bosnian that etc By writing like this, we are putting the civilian who asked nothing in this war in the same place as the Serbian Bosnian politics army or group involved and responsible.
vajgaduznone@reddit
People are absolute retards and especially in the Balkans, what else is new.
I am a Serb in my 30s so too young to have participated the war, no one from my family has been to war, we also don't support Vučić, yet the majority of Croats, Bosniaks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Estonians, Latvians and Americans on Reddit keep telling me I'm genocidal. It's just the way it is.
dwsrfvjrwy@reddit
Croats and Americans are self projecting when they say shit like that icl
vajgaduznone@reddit
Tbh every one of those nations had either their own SS division or some other movement supporting nazism or fascism, whose sole purpose was exterminating people of different ethnicites, so yeah... Many people don't know their own history or are just coping/projecting, as you said
Ok_Cancel_7891@reddit
common between us
ChugHuns@reddit
That is unfortunate and certainly not fair. That said, I think it's the fact that the war, and the genocide, was not all that long ago. Also, it never really seemed, from the outside looking in, that Serbians were all that repentant about what went down. Those two things are going to turn people off. How fair that is is very debatable.
Vast_Scale_3199@reddit
where did estonians and latvians come from lol
ChugHuns@reddit
And not the Lithuanians lol
vajgaduznone@reddit
No idea but the Baltic people seem to hate us (online at least). I believe it's due to the connection with Russia, our "positive" and their negative. Not like any normal person in Serbia gives a flying fuck about Russia, or Baltics even
Comarade_Trostky@reddit
What did you expect from this sub?
mermaidworker@reddit
Yes, I am not a serb, but I noticed some people act like all Serbs are evil.
Jcufi@reddit
Serb hating strong in this one I see.
CakiGM@reddit
World would have been a better and a bit less complicated place
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
No, the war would still be going. When the KLA was formed it had only 150 members but in 1998 it had 20000. So as the years go by the number of the KLA would have been a lot higher like 50000 members and the guerilla war would still be going.
CakiGM@reddit
Sure dude
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
It is true dude because the more civilians you kill the more civilians you radicalize. It's a fact. The albanian civilians whose family members got killed would want revenge on serbian forces. KLA in the beginning only had 150 men but in 1998 it had 20000. That's a fact
CakiGM@reddit
Ah yes, because that's totally how it went for you guys before NATO intervention 🙏🏻
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
The number of UÇK fighters was low. The serbian army killed mostly civilians who were women and kids. 1500 UÇK fighters died but 808 serbian soldiers got killed by UÇK, 26 serbian tanks got destroyed by by UÇK, 20 russian volunteers got killed by UÇK
CakiGM@reddit
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
These are facts tho. KLA only had 1,500 deaths but they were armed civilians not real trained soldiers. KLA killed 808 yugoslav soldiers who were trained professionally and whom some of them were veterans of bosnian and croatian war. The casualties between the KLA and serbia were almost the same, just the KLA being a little bit higher but it's ok and normal because the KLA was made from civilians not soldiers. These yugoslav casualties are all before NATO intervention.
CakiGM@reddit
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
This is one of your soldiers by the way
CakiGM@reddit
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
A serbian soldiee who got captured by the KLA and was beheaded
CakiGM@reddit
Congratulations you did warcrimes, here is your reward:
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
Your soldiers killed 8000 kids, but when your soldiers faced armed men, they eneded up without heads.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Keeping ur Muslim traditions alive I see
CakiGM@reddit
Ah yes, let's imagine the world in which that is true, you are telling me that those two are the exact twi who did killings, for all we know those two are random civilians which KLA beheaded which is something that happened often such is in case of father Hariton, may he rest in peace.
TheEagle74m@reddit
KLA was getting bigger everyday, hundreds joining daily. Probably more thousands dead, and in the end I believe Serbs will not be willing to volunteer to fight in Kosovo anymore, unlike us Albanians that we had nowhere to go, we would’ve fought to the end.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
lmaoo, some comments are trully pure comedy. Thank you for the laugh this early.
the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) did not win any significant military engagements against the Yugoslav Army (VJ) or Serbian police forces without U.S. or NATO support. Look up what happened in Drenica and Junik.
Hamas like terrorist tactics, and hiding behind family members.
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
You don't need to win battles to win a war. Did vietnam win any battles against USA? No they didn't yet they won the war. Did the taliban win any battles against USA? No they did not but they still won the war.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
With their own strength tho, Kosovo was emptied until US intervention was over.
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
Yes because the serbian army was only targeting civilians which were mostly kids and women. The actual death number of UÇK insurgents is low compared to civilians. The UÇK killed 808 serbian soldiers, destroyed 26 tanks and killed 20 russian volunteers
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
of couse sugar, the same argument hamas uses for the IDF, blame ur "heroic" fighters hiding behind ur family members.
adam jashari is some fundemantalist fool, yet you turn him into some national hero
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
Adem Jashari launched a guerilla war against serbian soldiers and police. It took 1000+ serbian forces to kill him. You complain about albanian rebellion but it was serbia who left albanians no choice but to fight. Your country is evil, it was built on genocide and expulsions. Every war you have fought you mostly fought civilians. Look you needed 1000+ men just to take down one guy
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Serbs fought every invader unlike you who welcomed them home.
You must be kidding but sure if you want to believe that, he was hiding like a fool behind his family members.
Just imagine it’s war and you put ur daughter and family on the front lines, Hamas like tactics
And maybe you will mentally grow up and understand that there is no evil/good but interests. The world is no Disney movie
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
Albania has beaten Serbia in dibran wars 1912-1921, we defeated you in the koplik war 1920. We had beaten you twice in wars. When the ottomans were in balkans, the sulltans all had serbian wives, you gave your wives to the ottomans to have good relations with them. Ottomans married the most serbian women. Mara brankovic is the most famous example. Search on google "dibran wars 1912-1921" and also search "koplik war" and see what happened to serbs when they entered Albania.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
😂😂 of course brother that’s why you were fighting ur own kind to keep ottomans there, don’t be silly.
Everbody knows who pushed them out of the Balkans and it wasn’t Albanians.
U use ur kids as shields lmaoo
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
Lmao serbia literally helped the ottomans conquer constantinopole, the so called warriors of christ. You helped the turks in the battle of nicopolis. Most interrnational marriage in balkans was serbian women and turkish men. We never cared about pushing them out of balkans, we only cared about them pushing them out of country. Also did you search on google "dibran wars 1912-1921"? Don't forget to search "koplik war" too. Search them i dare you to.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
who cares about that, you fought ur own kind literally on behalft of the ottomans to keep them in the balkans. This did cost you alot in the balkan wars.
ur brainless statements tell alot about ur non existent intellect.
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
KLA killes 808 yugoslav soldiers, destroyed 26 tanks, killed 20 russian volunteers. They controlled 40 to 50 percent of Kosovo's territory in 1998, it was called KLA Summer offensive.
TheEagle74m@reddit
Kosare was just the beginning.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
The KLA never achieved a clear military victory on the battlefield independently.
DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit
Llapushnik, Gllogjan, Loxhë, Oplazë, Gjeravicë - just some direct battles the UCK won. But, they were a guerrilla army, since they were significantly outgunned by Milosevic's terrorists.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Such fact is very true.
DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit
KLA didn't engage in significant military engagements, they were a guerrilla army lol.
KLA were in the mountains not in civilian houses. Why do you engage on topics you clearly have no idea about?
Lgkp@reddit
I love when a Serb fakes being Austrian. You have been really active on this thread, commenting on every comment to spread disinformation
While this is somewhat true (regarding what you said), the biggest battle during the Kosovo war was indeed won by the KLA together with Albania. The battle of Koshare.
Comparing the KLA to Hamas is just Serbian mental gymnastics, but I get why some people call Serbia the Israel of Europe
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Lmao I was born and raised here , and were do I spread misinformation ?
Although the Yugoslav Army was unable to reclaim the border outpost at Košare, the KLA never broke out of this small bridgehead and was ultimately unsuccessful at securing a corridor from Albania through this route …
People claiming genocide in Kosovo isn’t spreading misinformation ? Even with all the information we have today ?
Lgkp@reddit
”Lmao I was born and raised here”
You will never be Austrian. Never. No matter how much coping you do, your blood is Serb. Austrians will never see you as Austrian. The passport you have changes nothing. It’s the same for me, just because I carry a Swedish passport doesn’t mean that I suddenly turned Swedish, neither for my family. But keep on using being ”Austrian” as a fake identity, weirdo
It’s interesting they ”couldn’t break out” because it is from Padeshi to Koshare —> rest of Kosovo where they smuggled majority of weapons, so I don’t know what you’re on. But then you deny genocide in Bosnia, and deny ethnic cleansing in Kosovo
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
this tells so much about urself, but i have no insecurities in that regard, unlike you obviously or why bring it up ? I was raised into the austrian culture aswell (playing piano, dancing walzer etc), i dont care what anybody sees me like, nor is it important. Let alone that Vienna was multi ethnical for over 2 centures now. Open a phonebook of vienna if ur ever there and you will understand how silly ur comment is, it would be weird to claim i am not Austrian aswell since i literally was born and raised here. I can be Austrian and Serbian, this doesnt bite each other.
But then you deny genocide in Bosnia, and deny ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. Show me the quote were i denied this, since you made it up.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Nato helped Albanians in Kosovo at the cost of Albanians in other regions. The Albanian question is no small matter for the Balkans, and i am not saying this in the "patriotic" sense, the war in Kosovo would happen sooner or later. Milosevic found the perfect moment to do so. Yugoslavia was armed at the teeth... Just because official Tirana is not concerned about expanding borders like Serbia was in the 90s, does not mean our country would stay idle when 2 million people pour in, though. Even a kitten blinds when put in a corner.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
let’s be honest, Albania is no military threat.
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
A country doesn't need a big military to defend itself. Take a look at Afghanistan and Vietnam on how they defeated the US and Russia. The same would have happened here.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Lmaoo Not really, Albania would have to go inside Kosovo to retake Kosovo in case there was no US intervention.
No way this would turn out good for Albanians
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
The guerilla war would have lasted for over 10 years. The serbian army most of the time only killed civilians which were women and kids. The death number of albanian insurgents was very low compared to civilian deaths.
Diligent_Tomato_147@reddit
During the Communism EVERYBODY had done military training. My parents know how to use guns. We had 2,000,000 ready for war in less than 1 hour. Add the huge amount of Bunkers, Russian&Chinese guns... it would have been hell.
John__Warhammer@reddit
Congratz, now assault that Yugoslav trench without armor support.
Ok_Tomatillo_3811@reddit
The population however is well armed today, contrary to the unarmed civilians they fought in 99.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
That is the whole point.
Infinite-Cycle2626@reddit
So you are saying Milosevic started the war?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Yes.
Infinite-Cycle2626@reddit
Ok. Is it maybe because terrorist groups were ambushing and killing his police officers?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
That is what Serbs did against Ottomans and that Austrian Prince as well.
Shadnu@reddit
Yet I don't believe anyone would argue that Serbs didn't start the wars against Ottomans for independence.
Infinite-Cycle2626@reddit
That was a hundred years ago, wasn’t it?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Yes it was. Same principle though.
bosnanic@reddit
Kosovo devolves into a brutal war and ethnic cleansing campaign like in Bosnia.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
NATO intervened in Bosnia, as well.
RageBash@reddit
And America stopped Bosnians when they stared taking back territory and started conquering new one outside original. If they hadn't there wouldn't be Republika Srpska now or it would be a lot smaller, based on many older people who fought in the war.
AstropathicRelay@reddit
Even if they could maintain rapid advance ( which is still questionable) the reason why they stopped is because they risked involving Serbia ( SRJ / YU ) directly into the Bosnian civil war . Which definitely wouldn't have benefited Bosniak side in the slightest unless the combined SRJ/VRS army was defeated which would have been quite a tall task . The only question being how fast SRJ army would be able to reinforce VRS lines if such decision was made and how much internal opposition such a decision would face inside Serbia and Montenegro .
dogiii_original@reddit
Serbia was involved from the start and everyone knows it. The problem is Milosevic was smart in hiding the evidence. As someone living there during the time and my uncle and father fighting they can tell u. MIGs flying bombing regularly Bosnian army positions. Captureed soldiers from Belgrade, Nis, Novi sad etc.
JNA was involved from the start...
Ancient_Course5112@reddit
It’s true that the US bailed out Bosnian Serbs in the end, but it’s also true that the US’ involvement (specifically brokering peace between Croats and Bosnian Muslims) was very key to the war effort. Without HVO and HV places like Bihac would have gotten Srebrenica’d too
dogiii_original@reddit
Bosnians were fighting on 3 fronts with no weapons. Babini (bosnian separatists from Velika kladusa) ,croats ( at the end we fought together against the evil in balkans) , Serbs . If we had to fight 1 armynlike JNA ....bring it on...lol
Not because we are a WARRIOR NATION like serbs like to call themselves 😂 but because of the terrain in Bosnia and Herzegowina. It's mountains everywhere...try your luck.... that's the reason the serbs positioned themselves on mountains and hills surrounding Sarajevo...
Ancient_Course5112@reddit
All I was trying to say that Bosnian Muslims received significant help from the West in many regards, and that even though the US ended Bosnian Muslim offensive, the reason that the offensive was happening was in large part due to assistance from the West. Bosnian Muslim rapid gains were very much driven by the Croatian army & Oluja.
dogiii_original@reddit
The West wanted the Serbs to ethnically cleanse us because they don't want muslims in EU and it's been confirmed multiple times even Holbrook said it to Dacic and implied it to Alija. The only thing the West did for Bosnia was to implement an embargo so we could not defend ourselves. If not for Iran we wouldn't have shit....Oluja only succeeded because of the Bosnian army cause the croats got stuck at Livno...
TextAccomplished1596@reddit
yh its everything because of "brave" Bosniaks, Croatia also had embargo on weapons. Without Croatia accepting all immigrants from Bosnia, letting foreign fighters from muslim countries in BiH and Croats in BiH organizing defence against Serbs (HOS and stuff), there would be much more casualties, much more Srebrenicas. After all this, you keep electing that scum Komsic and keep backstabbing Croats wherever you can and thats why you will be dog water country forever
dogiii_original@reddit
Nobody said croats didn't do shit....Komsic will be elected because the alternative is a fucking piece of shit from hdz that is collaborating with Dodik...so what's ur point?
TextAccomplished1596@reddit
Komsic will be elected as a Croatian representative and all he does is shitting on Croats, and Schmidt and all high representatives before him didn't do anything about that, we are at point where Dodik and Serbs are better partner for Croats than you.
dogiii_original@reddit
so give us someone NORMAL ffs not Covic for 30 fucking years
TextAccomplished1596@reddit
"Give us", he is representative of Croats in BiH, he should represent Croats interests, that election is none of your business and you should have no say in who Croats elect, that is straight up breach of Dayton agreement but since it is fucking up Croats, its ok
Ancient_Course5112@reddit
Bosniaks sure can’t stop pretending like the entire country is theirs…
Ancient_Course5112@reddit
Mate Boban knew this too, unfortunately expansionist politics from both Tudjman and Milosevic ruined the relationship in Bosnia
AstropathicRelay@reddit
Supplying one side in a civil war with ammunition's and volunteers is not remotely the same as sending a full fledged military brigade(or brigades) to participate in a war. Unsure why this is so difficult to differentiate and its objectively true . I guess Milosevic must have been a magician to be able to hide a full fledged brigade in plain sight , its not an easy task.
Unless you can name me a brigade which participated and not some ragtag military volunteer group? Maybe it was the 46th Motorized ? Let me know , either way.
BalkanTrekkie2@reddit
Lol no. Bosnia was a proxy war for Serbia of course we were involved in terms of sending supplies and paramilitary forces which were very limited.
But Serbia never mobilized it's army or full power.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
First of all without the US Operation there would be no advancement on the Bosniak side and just to make sure it was only empty words that stopped you or can you give me an example were the US bombed Bosniak positions to prove ur claim ?
PapaStorm@reddit
Well they didn't, because the ARBiH never targeted civilian population centers with indiscriminate bombing campaigns.
If the Serb Army didn't want their shiny guns to be bombed, maybe they should have waged war against the armed forces and not the civilian population.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
That was not my question since you was implying that the US threaten to bomb you. I am asking about an example on that argument
please stop to embarrass yourself, you can look how much territory was secured until Deliberate Force were US strikes began.
PapaStorm@reddit
I literally quoted your question, what are you on about? I did not imply anything. I don't know of any official statements but HVO and ARBiH came within 14 km of Banja Luka. Then entering Banja Luka would have provided a humanitarian crisis so it makes sense that NATO would be against it.
How am I embarrassing myself? By stating facts? Care to explain why NATO bombed RS positions then?
Yes operation Deliberate Force had an impact in the course of the war. But to state that is the only reason why RS lost so much ground is false.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Its not, claiming otherwise is a historical, but as mentioned it may help to cope and soften the blow from the horrific results in the conflict.
Targets: VRS command, communication, and air-defense sites around Sarajevo and across Bosnia. Over 3,500 sorties flown; precision bombing severely degraded Serb artillery and supply networks.
Coordinated with ground offensives by the Bosnian Army (ARBiH) and Croatian forces, who exploited the weakened Serb defenses.
imagine to claim having the strongest army in the world on ur side didnt matter, but sure. I know they came in 14 Km of Banja Luka and were afraid to advance further because US would lift their support Umbrella and you would be again on ur own fighting probably the serbian army.
I dont get the fairytales about US stopping you when we have not a single official document on this from their defense/interior departments. (such documents anyway get declassified after a certain time)
PapaStorm@reddit
Yeah I have no idea what you are on about in your first paragraph.
Most of the targets were around Sarajevo as that is where the most civilian bombings took place. NATO warned VRS multiple times to stop bombing civilians, and they did not comply. The targets were munitions depot and heavy weapons used to kill civilians in Sarajevo. Communication hubs were also targeted to minimize NATO casualties.
They did no extensive strikes in the area where Operation Sana was conducted, so to claim that the advance only happened because of the strikes is laughable.
Operation Storm in Croatia was successful in striking down the Serb Army without the help of NATO, the momentum carried over to Bosnia.
Even before this, VRS had multiple setbacks through Bosnia, as they bow faced a trained army and not farmers with guns and civilians like they were used to.
Now ho peddle your Serb propaganda somewhere else.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
The momentum came with the US Operation, what’s ur point in denying that ? It’s documented and available for everybody.
We are talking about the strongest force in the world and they were unmatched in the 90s, to claim this didn’t allow your advance is ahistorical or why would you stop the same moment they withdraw the same support, makes no sense if you were fine on ur own. Why you didn’t push it ? There is no official document that shows that Bosniaks would get bombed in case of an further advancement.
You can tell this fairytales obviously to urself, if they help you sleep at night and cope with the fact that you lost heavily in Bosnia and share the federation with Croats.
And to hide your own post history on reddit is next level embarrassment
PapaStorm@reddit
Hurr durr, mah post history. Whaaa whaaa... What does that have to do with this post? Can you not debate without looking at my post History to try to find some gotcha? Lol
Prove that the momentum came with the NATO strikes. What is your excuse that the strikes were mostly around Sarajevo, and why that would effect the fighting capability of RS in western Bosnia?
The NATO strikes stopped 14 September. Operation Sana started 13. Sept to 13. Oktober? Are you even aware of what you are writing?
Jesus how blindly can someone spew such lies when the documentation is right in front of them.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Not really it’s just embarrassing and contradicts the platforms logic. Why would you hide it ? Lmao
I literally already proved it to you, operation deliberate force switched the moment towards Bosniak forces. This is well documented and not controversial at all.
Imagine claiming having the backing of the strongest force in the world didn’t play a crucial role.
Ur claim holds no grounds since you stopped the same second the support would be lifted in further advancement. Why did you stop ? There is no official document that would support the idea of Bosniaks getting bombed in that case.
PapaStorm@reddit
Quite the contrary. Its so donkeys like you don't go snooping in comment history to find something completely unrelated to the current discussion. Why did you look at my comment history? You can see my comments in this thread?
No you absolutely did not. Saying that is shifted momentum, is not the same as proving it. So prove it?
Prove how strikes in Sarajevo affected the fighting capability of VRS in western Bosnia? We're the VRS soldiers so scared of what happened in Sarajevo that they ran?
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Lmaoo, imagine to be so ashamed of your own statements to hide them
Robert C. Owen argues that the HV, HVO and ARBiH would not have advanced as rapidly as they did had NATO not intervened and denied the VRS its long-range communications
Should I explain to you why communication for example is crucial in war ? Or air superiority?
So you ignore the fact that you stopped the same second the support would be lifted and you had to advance without air superiority and support of NATO on ur own. Your argument holds no ground.
PapaStorm@reddit
Yeah I guessed it. You are upset you could not find anything to use in my comment history. What a pathetic reaction.
The keyword here is rapidly and Owen is the only source claiming this. There were already advances in both Croatia and Bosnia before the bombings. Nobody is claiming the bombings did not have an effect, but not the main driver behind the advance. If they were, the VRS were truly in a pitiful state at the time.
Air superiority was non existing even before the bombings.
Again, the HVO and ARBiH did in fact NOT stop the same second the air campaign stopped. See my earlier comment if you have a hard timer understanding.
Now excuse me, but I have better things to do than talk to some Serb nationalist online.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Lmao, keep on hiding your comments on a public platform where you post anonymously. It’s funny that you don’t get why this is pathetic.
So the strong Bosniak forces made the advancement possible not the backing of the strongest force in the world. Sure in Bosnian Muslim fairytale books.
They were obviously the main driver since they made sure the communication is non existent anymore and heavily weaponry was targeted.
Who cares if it was the same second, they stopped immediately once lifting the support was on the table and you had to fight on ur own further, ur forces were obviously scared to advance on their own.
If you had something better to do I doubt you would announce it…
MrImAlwaysrighT1981@reddit
Serbs nationalist tears are juicier.
Advancements mentioned in comment you reply happened during or right after Oluja, no US operations were needed. Serbs were ready to run, lik ussual when they don't fight women, old people and children.
Considering how Serbs had all weaponry of JNA on their disposal, every help BiH Army had is fair enough.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
bosniak mythology is fun, but i guess it helps to cope with the horrendous result of the conflict.
so if no help was needed why not advance further ?
Operation Deliberate Force (30 August–20 September 1995) was a turning point in the Bosnian War. It didn’t end the war by itself, but it decisively shifted the balance of power toward the Bosnian government and Croat forces, setting the stage for the Dayton Peace Accords later that year.
Ancient_Course5112@reddit
I do think Serbia probably directly intervenes if Bosnian Serbs are under real threat of being ethnically cleansed (which likely would have been attempted).
CTPABA_KPABA@reddit
kosovo war was almost over by that point
DarkFarmerZ@reddit
The guerilla war would have lasted longer and it will end up like Afghanistan - Serbia withdrawing troops. And many more civilian casualties to kosovo albanian civilians
some_randomdude1@reddit
According to the Albanian prime minister at the time, if NATO hadn’t intervened, Albania would have been forced into the conflict. Serbian forces had already shelled Albanian territory, and special units had crossed the border several times to stop arms smuggling, clashing with Albanian border units.
With over half a million refugees whose passports had been confiscated, the situation in Albania was not unsustainable long term. While militarily weaker than Yugoslavia, Albania had large stockpiles of weapons and a population strongly supporting the Kosovo cause, so any war would have been fierce.
Thankfully, NATO’s intervention prevented that escalation.
MrImAlwaysrighT1981@reddit
I doubt that would've happened, and even if it did, not sure Albania would've had much success. By the time NATO started their operation against Serbia, Serbs eliminated Albanian threat in Kosovo, and they only had to fight defensively to win that hypotethical war, while Albania would need to attack, on very mountanious terrain.
PavelKringa55@reddit
There would never be NATO ground invasion. But had one happened they'd roll Serbia quickly.
some_randomdude1@reddit
Albania was hosting around half a million refugees, with the risk of another 300K if NM decided to expel them. The country simply didn’t have the resources to sustain that many people long-term. They had to go back home, one way or another.
Yes, the Albanian army was in rough shape after the 1997 chaos. But it still had fighter jets, tanks, artillery. And shitloads of ammo. Granted, mostly outdated Soviet and Chinese equipment, but still functional to a degree. I’m no military expert, but I doubt it would’ve been the “walk in the park” for Serbia some people claim. And while KLA wasn’t a conventional army, it wasn’t gone either. They operated across the region, familiar with the terrain and capable of sabotage, ambushes, and guerrilla tactics. That kind of resistance would’ve made any prolonged Serbian operation costly and difficult to sustain.
John__Warhammer@reddit
If you exclude the Yugoslav war economy, a mobilized state apparatus with a decade long active combat experience and an intact JNA inventory, then yes Yugoslavia might have faced surprises.
some_randomdude1@reddit
I never said Albania would emerge victorious. And hopefully, we'll never find out who will win in any future wars.
All I said is that without NATO intervention, Albania would be left with no choice but to fight, and hard.
Lgkp@reddit
Albania was the reason as to why the KLA won the battle of Koshare
It would’ve happened that they’d fully go into Kosovo. Also I’d like the sources of this elimination you’re speaking about
John__Warhammer@reddit
Won 😭
MrImAlwaysrighT1981@reddit
As stated in the first post, I was speaking about war between Albania and Serbia without NATO involvement. During battle or Koshare Albanians had NATO support.
Could you show me map of active fronts in Kosovo prior NATO bombing?
Fine-Ear-8103@reddit
When the war ended KLA was in possession of about 40% of kosovo, serbia fought war for almost 10 years at that point they didnt have much left, they lost koshare and simultaneously the lesser known battle of pashtrik, when KLA took pashtrik they took the city of gjakova which meant now the KLA won an actual city out of serbian hands…now do the math with all that plus albanian tanks and artillery, milosevic signed the agreement there and then to save face for his military that was on a steep downslope plus his troops no longer knew what they’re fighting for it was a lost cause for serbia.
MrImAlwaysrighT1981@reddit
You ignore, intentionally or not, the main premise of such war, and that is, NO NATO INVOLVEMENT. Which was crucial for defeating, and rightly so, Milošević, after more than a decade of serbian nationalist ravaging across ex-Yu.
All the facts you mentioned, happened directly or indirectly due NATO bombings.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
I dont know about Nato, but such attacks demostrates that Uck was not well trained. Two artillery pieces were enough to break the border but they were operated by Albanian Army. Nato bombings were all over the place, and it is true that Uck communicated with Nato, probably they helped more psychologically than militarily in this particular case. Logically, a Serbian unit would limit movements.
Lgkp@reddit
There are no such accurate maps afaik
The Kosovo war wasn’t really fought on fronts anyway, it was a mostly guerilla war with the exception of the battle of Koshare
KLA cells existed within all of Kosovo, which is why Serbian police and military were so paranoid and would randomly stop young men and search them, sometimes threaten to send them to jail (which ment torture). Attacks could happen anywhere at anytime
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Mountains over Gjakova would be a headache for Serbia and they would never be able to control such terrain.. Even in 1945-46 when they purged Kosovo uprising, Tito had help from Hoxhaist Albania. Even earlier in history, in 1924, Serbia had help from Zogist Albania to chase down patriots. But we don't talk much about these events because such fact make Tirana look bad in the eyes of Albanians beyond the border. Even Adem Jashari had been arrested in early 90s in Tirana and held in prison for six months due to Yugoslav request...I ma listing such fact to make an argument that the partisan warfare in the mountains would countinue as long as Albania backed it.
java_unscript@reddit
Cmmon mate. Albania back then was a disaster. The country would have barely mustered an army, with everyone either still recovering from the pyramid schem/97 collapse or emigrating.
PavelKringa55@reddit
You know how many bunkers Albanians had?
Creepy_Parfait4404@reddit
The thing is, Albania hade alot of arms and Yugoslavia was going to collapse any second from within.
Gefunkz@reddit
But people dont like to think about their own country's militarily realistically. If Albania really wanted to, they could have crushed Yugoslavia. Also if Yugoslavia got really angry, it would have crushed NATO.
DMAssociation@reddit
Can you give me sources of Ygoslav military entering Albanian territory?
PavelKringa55@reddit
Probably great ethnic cleansing of Kosovo, with displacement of Kosovo Albanian population into Albania and North Macedonia.
After that a civil conflict in North Macedonia might turn much more towards Albanians, as there would be many more of them.
shogunlazo@reddit
Probably the people of those countries would ended up for the most part in NM and Albania, because neither of them were going to win.
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
North Macedonia wouldn’t not even exist today if the war continued. It would have been partitioned.
shogunlazo@reddit
No we wouldn't we literally had a peaceful independence, without a bullet fired in 1991.
What are you talking about. We even kept all our Yugoslav agreements with what was then left as Yugoslavia.
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
It would have been spill over from the conflict. If you belief that Serbia would not have entered Macedonia then that is your opinion.
I do believe that their intent was and still is to destabilize the region and control it economically.
shogunlazo@reddit
We literally left prior the conflict and Serbia had zero issue with that. We were never on bad terms on any issue.
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
Who is we?
shogunlazo@reddit
NM the country and Serbia. At our independence we gave them everything they asked for and gave them every insurance.
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
What would you give to an artificial state that collapsed? What did “they” ask for?
shogunlazo@reddit
So you don't risk war ? Also it worked. So yeah that's why you do it. Not a single bullet was fired and all trade agreements and border mobility was maintained.
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
What was maintained was Serbian: 1. Economic control 2. Political points of control / power over the country.
How did that work out?
shogunlazo@reddit
Economic control? We had free trade. Political control? We had complete independence. We were literally one of the first ones that recognized Kosovo.
Inner_Idea_1546@reddit
And now you have fun with muslim extremists wrecking havoc and you are swallowed slowly.
shogunlazo@reddit
Muslim extremists? I'm sorry but did you go to the "special school" when you where growing up. We still have the same 18-22% Muslim population we've always had. No one came here you idiot. Our only conflics came from Kosovo when it spilled over here.
Inner_Idea_1546@reddit
Kumanovo May 9. 2015. Had dead Macedonian police special forces who engages terorist group of around 50 to 60 heavily armed man. Lol live in a bubble.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
I am curious how such clash is portrayed in Serbian media.
Inner_Idea_1546@reddit
How was it portrayed in Albania? Mostly peaceful muslim group harassed by police?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
I asked you first.
Inner_Idea_1546@reddit
Terorist cell. What? Where they "just defending their home? In some illegal settlement? :D
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
What? Where?
Inner_Idea_1546@reddit
Who? How?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Whose? When? 🤣
Inner_Idea_1546@reddit
Exactly! :D To be or not to be?!
shogunlazo@reddit
Guess which ethnicity a good % of the police and team that got killed and injured were? Out of the 8 initially killed 1 was also Albanian. You also had Albanians in the special unit that was sent in to kill them... You fucking monkey.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Your logic is right. Conflict in 2001 would not have happened if Kosovo war never did.
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
You are clueless
theDivic@reddit
You are pathologically obsessed with Serbia and Serbs, I would get that checked out if I was you.
There are a lot of things to blame Serbia for, but Macedonia is not one of them.
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
I think it’s the other way around. Serbs are obsessed with Albanians. Some call it penis envy.
EriDoes@reddit
Your avatar tricks me into thinking you were laughing during the discussion😂🤣
nindza22@reddit
Albanians literally started the war in Macedonia, and you still blame Serbs for something that would never ever happen. Yes, Macedonia would be split, but by Albanians, not Serbs.
Inner_Idea_1546@reddit
Woah what a conspiracy theory. Delusional
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
Says the Serbian bot
Flimsy_Snow5374@reddit
Google Ohrid Agreement 2001 and let me know if you think that would happen without western involvement and with many more Albanian refugees from Kosovë.
shogunlazo@reddit
Again all these things, don't happen with out the war in Kosovo. No war no league of prizren, no league of prizren no uck. No war no refugee crisis ... I could go on.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
League of Prizren was in 1878.
shogunlazo@reddit
I know, but when did recruitment skyrocket ? When did all those old ideas come back? That's my point.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
I don't think old ideas came from League of Prizren. Those ideas came from after 1912. Yes it is true that events of 1878 had impact, but let me explain a bit:
We celebrate here in Albania indipendence but beyond the border it is comemorated as a tragedy of some sort where half of our nation and lands were awarded to neighbouring countries. Such narrative is still noirished to this day. Fishta called Europe as "old whore" in his poetry. Pupils for a hundred years were taught in school his poems which told about League of Prizren mainly. Even though during communism he was censored, in our schools in the 1990-2000s the chapter of Highland Lute was big deal because of the dialect. That poem was all about our strugle against Slavs, Turks and the great European powers.
However, i have started to believe that Europe was not unfair to us then. Many other nations in 1913 were still under the yoke of a stronger country. I am not naive. I am aware Albania was established as a balance between Great Powers because neither of them could decide whom would annex us, so they let us be. But our founding fathers were not happy, and they worked and propagated for an Albanian country which included all Albanians while denouncing every major power. Eventually, every patriot who signed indipendence was propably assasinated, executed, or dead in exile due to political strifes and rivalries between Noli, Zogu and Hoxha later on.
This is a quick glimpse of our "Nationalism" that i am trying to explain, or at least how i understand it, which is not that different from any nationalism in Eastern Europe.
But all of these had not much to do with UCK, which i think were more inspired by our partisan movies than history or literature 🤣 because the whole atmosphere was such. And after the war they founded a leftist party even 😂
shogunlazo@reddit
I mean they were unfair to you and to us and to most people in the region 🤣 western nationalism doesn't quick work outside western Europe ... And is especially stupid here where cultural and ethnic lines have been in blurred and in the gray zone for the last 15 or so centuries
Kumvuk@reddit
Without nato you would have been kicked out of kosovo and macedonia.
PasicT@reddit
A second genocide but this time in Kosovo.
Specialist_Elk140@reddit
I guess the war was over ownership of Kosovo so whoever won that war gets Kosovo? And the population for the losing side gets displaced? In the end it was the Serbs who got displaced because NATO fought against them. Hell they even went as far as not wanting Serbs to even exist, they wrote on their bombs "Still wanna be a Serb?". But after months of fighting NATO too, it just wasn't possible to go any longer. Small country against the whole Western world, we aint Russia or China to be able to challenge the Anglosphere lol. They're so powerful that I even in it as a result which is embarrassing.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Sounds like a Hoxhaist speech already. No offence, but this tragic and funny at the same time...What happened to getting rid "muslim terrorists" propaganda. I am asking because i saw it in many comments in this thread.
The problem with Serbian propaganda was that they tried to sell it to the west as a fight against jihadist. They copy pasted the narrative of Russia in Chechenya. It actually worked in Bosnia, and western offices fell for this in the beginning, but the same offices had gathered more information regarding Albania. Lobbies in the US had been working since the 1980s and armies from all over Europe were already deployed in Albania since 1997 and probably had a detailed profile of armed bands or groups operating here. Knowing Albanians, they probably found hilarity in Serbian reports of events.
Adorable-Ad-1180@reddit
In Bosnia there actually was a jihadist and islamic movement though. It was not BS. I mean even the founder of the independence movement literally issued an Islamic Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Declaration.
Lots of fighters came from the extremist side of islamic world to fight and support the bosniaks, who at that time simply refered to by ethnicity as "Muslims."
Albanians were a totally different story entirely. painting them with an islamic extremist brush didnt work the same
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
If he were in Albania in 1970, probably would be tied inside a sack altogether with hungry cats until he mentioned ten other names who helped him draft such manifesto. If he actually did it alone, he would have to make up ten names.
Infinite-Cycle2626@reddit
So much bullshit on this thread, this is crazy.
UCK was a ‘terrorist group’ as classified by the US government. Then they became ‘freedom fighters’ once Albanian lobby did its job and Americans realized they could have a puppet country in the Balkans + the biggest base in Europe + get rid off evil Milosevic now that the war in Bosnia and Croatia was over, as he served no purpose anymore. They didn’t need him. You are only in power in the Balkans if your interests align with big powers.
The war in Kosovo started after 100s of police officers were abducted or ambushed and killed. 1998-1999. Youtube is your friend. So spare me the narrative ‘they were fighting for freedom’. No, they took the weapons and they wanted to solve the problem militarily. So as someone said, you reap what you sow.
To cut to the chase, there was never an option of NATO NOT bombing Serbia. Having staged faked negotiations in Rambeau, where they practically gave Serbs an ultimatum to give Kosovo Albanians independence through a referendum, bombing was nothing but preplanned and organized in advance. If by some miracle it hadn’t happened, a lot of Albanians would have left Kosovo (truth be told, many came to Yugoslavia illegally and stayed there as they had tacit Tito’s approval, that’s how their numbers became huge), a lot more Serbs would have stayed (Kosovo has practically been ethnically cleansed off Serbs), I am Kosovo Albanians sure they would have some sort of self-governance like they should have had in the first place, but never full independence. Giving Kosovo independence cratered international law and you might be pro-independence or against it, but that is the truth. If the right of self determination applies to Kosovo Albanians, then let’s just give to everyone else, right?
Peace to everyone. ✌️
java_unscript@reddit
Man said peace to everyone after repeating the most cliche, tired, wrinkled, debunked arguments brozzer.
Go to sleep Lil brozzer
Infinite-Cycle2626@reddit
❤️
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
I would have similar pov if I were a Serb. But, the ambushes started after Milosevic revoked Autonomy status of Kosovo in 1990, and closed down schools.
Claiming that Serbs were cleansed under Tito's and Milosevic nose, is quite a story. It is like a chicken stealing from you a slice of a bread that you are already holding 🤣
nindza22@reddit
There wouldn't be a war in the first place. If Albanians didn't have a support they would never start such uprising.
Albanian drug cartels would work like usual, Serbian officials would be corrupt and bigoted as usual. Just like it is now in the towns and counties in Serbia with the Albanian majority.
java_unscript@reddit
The death toll in Kosovo would have become ridiculous and im not even exaggerating. They had their mind set on removing Albanians from that land.
This is why Kosovo Albanians need to replace the mosques with American 'honour-centers' where they can give praise and thanks each and every day.
Americans saved their lives while all of the eastern Moslem world just watched it unfold briefly on TV, before switching the channel over to football.
The most that the Turkish/Moslem world did was drop the price of Kebab from 5 euro to 3.99 euro... it was the Arnaut refugee special.
That is the MOST yall u/kosovo got from the people who you arselick today.
TheShroomLord@reddit
Serbia was willing to negotiate until NATO practically came with a 1914 style ultimatum. It was refused, the bombing started and then atrocities against Albanians got even worse. We can't say for sure what would happen without NATO bombing, but Serbia would probably have to cooperate and try to find a peaceful solution because of the sanctions, mounting international pressure and internal turmoil because of the Milošević regime.
vllaznia35@reddit
Milošević wasn't actually handing out flowers to Albanians until the 24th of March 1999 though. The opportunities for dialogue were repeatedly missed
TheShroomLord@reddit
I'm not saying there were no attrocities prior to the Rambouillet negotiations, that's why they happened to begin with. What I'm saying is Serbian authorities were under a lot of pressure to stop doing what they were doing. Rambouillet negotiations start, Serbia agrees to a lot of things, but then Wesley Clarke comes up with practically an occupation plan, which gets rejected. I'm not shifting the blame to the victims, I'm just saying that NATO bombing didn't stop the attrocities, it escalated them, while there were signs of peaceful solutions still.
DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit
You had Rugova from 1990-1998 to negotiate - a person who persisted the conflict could only be solved through peaceful talks. But Milosevic considered him to be a weak person.
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
Yugoslavia has no right to exist, Serbs just hastened its demise with barabric programs.
Vivid_Barracuda_@reddit
Justice
Frstmky_76@reddit
Wat
Sea_Top9815@reddit
The thing that bosnians and Albanians never get to understand or even admit is that they gave em territories to live without fighting in the balkan war.. They get free countries to live without spilling blood.. That's ok! Of course those are their territories that lived always there especially the Albanians. But... In Yugoslavia they have to deal with those that fought for them to be free! And who was those? The Serbs, Montenegrin,greeks and Bulgarians! And that's all! Isn't logic? The serbs had to deal with everyone after death of tito! Was the war unfair? Well yes but also NO! If you add what i told you till now!
I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I love everybody out there! I only use history and logic... Of course i would like everybody to live in their homeland! But .. and that "but" is the culprit here....
Anyways... The war ended. Nato participated etc.. years passed by.. so try to find ways to live together guys with no hatred.. greetings and make love not wars...
Frstmky_76@reddit
Lmao what
Dardan_Gashi@reddit
Are you saying Albania was not part of Balkan war? But also, what goal was achieved in balkan war?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
He is saying that we did not fight against Ottomans as much as they did.
Dardan_Gashi@reddit
It is funny, balkan war was mostly used to fight each other who gets to claim more lands now that ottomans are gone.
Just to be decided later by central Europe who gets what. Balkan wars resulted to be quite unnecessary, but still, albanians were involved in balkan wars just as much as other neighbours were, but we were not as strong as they were.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
I could not agree more. At first we have to be sincere with ourselves. I believe we deserved a country in 1912, and i don't agree with our narrative that Europe was not just then. In contrary, i believe Europe has been very kind with us, and they draw our territories that we had in 1444, more or less. but if we wanted more territories we should have fought more. The truth is that very few fractions fought against the Ottomans.
cevapi-rakija-repeat@reddit
Serbs would have to be more creative with perpetual victimhood.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
You’re talking like the Kosovo conflict ended the moment the bombing stopped. Massacres and killings continued up until 2012.
To answer your question: without the bombing, the war probably would’ve dragged on longer and caused more casualties. But Milošević wouldn’t have stayed in power much longer anyway — the sanctions were already crushing Serbia.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
What exactly happened until 2012?
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Kosovo?wprov=sfla1
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
I had an impression you were aluding 2004 unrest, but i was not sure whether it happened in 2012.
As for the rest, only in Albania, in one year have been more massacres than Kosovo in ten years. Of course, crimes here are not ethnically motivated, and i am of aware that, but ethnic crimes in Kosovo have no blessing from institutions and never will.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
No, I meant in general, from both sides. 2012 is just the latest date in wiki.
Dardan_Gashi@reddit
To begin with, of course I do not support any of the killing that ever happened, but it is not right to put conflicts after 99' in the same sentence as the massacres before that year. Killings after the war were mostly solo run, euphoric, and except the revolts of 2004 where albanians destroyed serbian objects an monastires, the rest were a really non organized crime situation.
Fun_Selection8699@reddit
Banjska 2023
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
That too. I didn't said it was 'only Albanians who did crimes'. I was just implying that bombing did not stop the conflict. Mainly because KFOR and UNMIK are useless.
Fun_Selection8699@reddit
I'm just saying killings and massacres didn't end in 2012
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Correct. I was refering to the wiki article, my bad. Conflict is ongoing.
Arbo96al@reddit
Nato would have intervened either way let's not forget that not even 100 years ago a whole world war started in that weird peninsula
mermaidworker@reddit
I don't think it would've continued longer, as Serbs didn't have enough money to continue with the war for too long. Also, people didn't like being under Milosevic and didn't like how things were going. NATO intervened too late, after genocide was already committed in Bosnia.
madtrucker99@reddit
Diaspora serbs coping hard
Invisible_Cnt@reddit
Who cares? They F'ed around and found out, rightfully so.
Barbak86@reddit
Well, there would be several things that could happen since one thing is for sure, Kosovo would be under strict control of the Serb Army. One scenario is:
The guerilla warfare of the KLA would continue. -If a lot of time would have passed without any results, some splinter groups of the KLA would abandon guerilla warfare, and would probably start pursuing more violent means, meaning real terrorist activities in Serb cities.
Sooner or later Milosevic would lose his grip on power due to war exhaustion, overall economic hardship of the 90', and bombs in major Serbian towns
A new Serb government would pursue peace talks. Albanians would probably accept a Sudan- South Sudan Style Deal, where the prospect of a Referendum would be part of the deal.
This outcome would have had a lot more lives claimed.
This is one of the million possible scenarios
vllaznia35@reddit
The 3rd one would have been possible if people like Dindić took power during the 90s
Barbak86@reddit
Without NATO intervention, it would be possible even in the mid 2000', when the Milosevic regime would have collapsed in this scenario.
vukituki23@reddit
Dusmani
AstropathicRelay@reddit
Low level insurgency campaign would be continued for quite a while at least until YU(SRJ) government was pressured into some kind of a deal (eventually) , but for the most part without outside help (from a major power) and border lockdown being tight insurgency couldn't sustain itself on a larger scale where it would be too problematic for YU army to deal with. There would likely be some displacements internally in Kosovo around insurgency affected areas but there would be no mass exodus , insurgency attacks on military and civilians and military reprisals would also occur on smaller scale.
OSCE Kosovo Verification Mission (KVM) would have remained active . Directly reporting and making recommendations to the OSCE Permanent Council, UN Security Council and other organizations on areas covered by UN Security Council Resolution 1199.
Nato War escalated everything in comparison to the period between 1995 - 1998 when KLA started its activities . But since that was the goal in itself I am pretty sure the price of escalating the conflict was worth (the increase in casualties and displaced people) since the ultimate goal was achieved at least partially.