Intel announces XeSS 3 with XeSS-MFG "Multi Frame Generation
Posted by Vb_33@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 60 comments
"The company also outlined upcoming shader precompilation support through Microsoft’s Advanced Shader Delivery system. This will allow Intel’s drivers to download precompiled shaders from the cloud, reducing first-launch stutter and improving loading times."
RHINO_Mk_II@reddit
Support for Alchemist and Xe1 as well, surprising to see but welcome.
Unlucky-Context@reddit
How does AMD do on supporting FSR features on various generations? Does anyone have a link to a support table, it would be super nice to have.
External_History3184@reddit
Because of bad architecture they didn't think of the future, just present, now fsr 4 is available even on rdna 2 with optiscaler mod but officially it isn't
Fit-Lengthiness2921@reddit
Xess доступен даже на rtx 3070
cosine83@reddit
With pretty steep performance drops in some cases but noticeable ones in pretty much every case.
bubblesort33@reddit
Has anyone actually agreed yet how this will work? I thought all this was up to this point was some proposal, but is anyone actually building the software, and hosting the service?
Shidell@reddit
Idk, but I wish the solution was simply to standardize precompilation in games ahead of loading.
Launchers could even do it outside of games when the machine is otherwise free, e.g. detect a new display driver? Recompile shaders for titles while the machine is otherwise idle or something.
NeroClaudius199907@reddit
Bring back load screens, cleverly hide load screen, increase shader compilation time. Not every game needs to be a seamless world
Strazdas1@reddit
20min+ compilation time only occurs when people use ancient CPUs thinking they dont need to upgrade CPU ever.
Vb_33@reddit (OP)
It depends on how many shaders are flagged for thr pre gameplay compilation step. Most games don't include all shaders because otherwise it would take several hours to compile them (according to Epic) and you'd have to do this every new patch and driver update.
The real solution is advanced shader delivery were you simply just download all the shaders before the game is launched just like on console.
Strazdas1@reddit
Id rather they include all of them and wait before the nonstutering play. Especially considering this claim is coming from a company with an engine famous for shader stuttering.
Downloading shaders works for fixed configurations (consoles). It wont work for the million variations in PCs.
Vb_33@reddit (OP)
That's the problem advanced shader delivery is fixing. The way it'll work is shaders will be compiled for a specific hardware configuration on the cloud and then those shaders will be downloaded by the user. Intel is adopting this approach and based on their slides Intel themselves will do the compiling for their hardware and then deliver the shaders via 2 avenues.
The first is via a game store like steam, when you downloaded a game steam will also include Intels shaders if you have an Intel GPU. The second is via Intels own driver, before a game is launched the driver will download the games shaders, on top of this Intel will periodically download new shaders based on a specific time frame. As you can see advanced shader delivery will make sure you have the shaders ready before the game is even launched just like on console.
My only concern is coverage, how many games will be covered by ASD? Intel claims they're starting with the 100 most popular Steam games (same thing they said about improving alchemist drivers back in the day), obviously there's a lot more games than that. Time will tell how this tech will proliferate because of coverage isn't perfect well need a solution that's better than what we have now for local shader compilation.
Strazdas1@reddit
Its not fixing it because it cannot fix it. The amount of configurations out there in PC spaces means the cloud hosting costs will bancrupt anyone trying to do this. Or they will just half-ass it and give you shaders compiled to similar but not same hardware, then blame you for game bugs/crashes.
Coverage is exactly an issue, but not in games, in hardware configurations. On PC it means youll be storying a million+ configurations on your cloud.
bubblesort33@reddit
The Last of Us was 30 minutes on launch, on a 1 generation old Ryzen 5600x in 2023.
Strazdas1@reddit
I havent tried at launch. It took me about 10 minutes on a 7800x3D. If the patches helped that means there probably was an bug with the compilation rather than it actually taking that long.
teutorix_aleria@reddit
The shader compilation step on Atomic Heart took like 15 mins on my 7800x3D
Strazdas1@reddit
I havent tried that particular game, but i never had it take even 10 minutes on my 7800x3D, while i saw plenty of people with ancient CPUs complain about 20+ mins for games that took me 3 minutes.
skinpop@reddit
It's not always possible to know which permutations you need beforehand.
Sol33t303@reddit
Doesn't steam already do this?
Exist50@reddit
For Steam Deck.
Sol33t303@reddit
No, for other hardware as well.
Though maybe it's a Linux thing since all my systems are Linux based.
bubblesort33@reddit
I said this before, and someone said it was only for Vulcan. Not sure if true.
teutorix_aleria@reddit
I think its probably something to do with proton. On windows all my games compile shaders as normal either precompile or during game.
Wander715@reddit
It's funny how Intel is beating AMD to the punch with some of these cutting edge features despite how small their GPU division is atm. They had hardware based ML upscaling before AMD and now MFG.
Vivorio@reddit
AMD has frame generation working from years now and XeSS launched on August this year.
MFG will come to RDNA most likely first than this.
Vb_33@reddit (OP)
Not AI based. AMD is prioritizing AI Frame generation with FSR Redstone. They know they hit a dead end with FSR3 upscaling and FSR Frame Gen.
Vivorio@reddit
That does not matter much. Last time I checked it was similar quality with Nvidia FG.
Not exactly. There is a lot of content of one of the devs of FSR and he mentioned how it could be improved but it was not on AMD priority list.
Most likely because Sony was asking for an AI solution and was eager to pay for that.
Jellyfish_McSaveloy@reddit
The quality of the generated frame is better with DLSS than FSR but it largely doesn't matter if you're using FG correctly anyway, you can't really see it. It's however hilarious how the quality of the generated frames no longer matter when FSRFG came out when it was all people could talk about when DLSSFG launched.
Vivorio@reddit
I disagree.
https://hardwaretimes.com/amd-fsr-3-vs-nvidia-dlss-3-which-is-better/
Where did I say it do not matter???
Jellyfish_McSaveloy@reddit
That game had a broken DLSS implementation for ages, it's a poor comparison.
Zestyclose_Plum_8096@reddit
how do you have a broken DLSS implementation ? DLSS is a standalone nvidia controlled DLL. you don't implement jack.
Jellyfish_McSaveloy@reddit
Developers can have good implementations and bad implementations of all upscaling tech, this shouldn't be any surprising news. FSR2 and FSR3 for example had an awful implementation in Cyberpunk and you were better off using opticaler. DLSS was broken in Immortals of Aveum and in games like Hitman for the longest time.
The most egregious is really FSR3, where we've seen implementations that were actually very close to DLSS but it only exists in a few titles. This suggests that devs really aren't spending enough time to make it work well. Look at how good it is in No Man's Sky for example.
Zestyclose_Plum_8096@reddit
so FSR 2 was not a stand alone DLL that the game pass "standardised" data do that the game dev could drop in replaced. CP2077 ( which i own along with 7900XTX ) bad implementation of FSR was that it implemented old version of FSR3 when newer were available at the time. So you loaded up optiscalar and used the latest ( well you used XeSS lol ). Optiscalar is an any to any implementation so if you really want to see you can go back to an old version of CP2077 with FSR3.0 and use the different input ( FSR/DLSS/XeSS ) set whatever version of FSR3 you want and see the input makes no difference.
Morningst4r@reddit
Bad implementations can happen regardless of the dlls. Stalker 2 for example looks absolutely terrible using the FSR inputs but if you use Optiscaler to convert DLSS to FSR 4 it looks 100x better.
Zestyclose_Plum_8096@reddit
i finally got around to testing this , i had to buy / install the game. So i went looking for bad stuff, transparencies, particles , mesh/grates , reflections etc.
so FSR3 is terrible in that game regardless of input.
native TAA is far better then FSR3.
FSR4 INT8 I cannot see any difference between source inputs in the area's i tested. Do you have specific examples locations. Im running ultra wide 1440p on a 37inch display, it is pretty easy to notice bad edge AA, blur etc i dont have the PPI to hide it.
Morningst4r@reddit
They might have patched it or maybe Optiscaler is doing a better job in between but it wasn't a subtle difference when I tested it a couple of months ago. Just walking around looking at trees was enough to know something wasn't right
Jellyfish_McSaveloy@reddit
So what's your point? All upscaling implementations are the same and developers can't do good or bad ones and it's all down to Nvidia or AMD if it's bad in game?
Cyberpunks implementation was so bad that you can inject the same version of FSR in via optiscaler and it was better than the native implementation by the devs. Likewise in Avatar, the native DLSS implementation causes missing textures in games, even if you do a DLL swap.
Vivorio@reddit
This game was the first one (I think) that came with FSR FG. If you have any other comparison to share, feel free.
ElectronicStretch277@reddit
Yeahz but they've got a lot of advantages. A lot of AMDs issues stem from RDNA in and of itself. They removed the ML aspects from their GPUs when RDNA launched since they saw no use for them. This resulted in big consequences down the line as AI capabilities became more and more important. Intel saw AMD shittijg the bed and knew to never deprioritize AI at any point. So you can say both Arc and Radeon have actually started fairly recently when it comes to ML.
Yes, Arc is small but they had time and lessons AMD didn't.
Zestyclose_Plum_8096@reddit
not really , RDNA3 has WMMA , the problem was they weren't aggressive enough with supported precisions. only supporting FP/BF16 on the FP side appears to have been a wrong choice.
if you believe the rumours RDNA3.0 missed its clock targets by alot. that plus not FP 8/6/4 support is what cost them in the consumer "ML race". If you go look at RDNA 3 performance on something like deepseek it is very good for the mem bandwidth and op throughput it has.
BleaaelBa@reddit
What did it do for them anyway.
Vb_33@reddit (OP)
Helped me when I was on my 1080ti, using XeSS DP4a instead of FSR2/3 was heaven on earth. I'm sure people on RDNA1-3 also were thankful for XeSS SR.
Zestyclose_Plum_8096@reddit
yes XeSS was goat on a 7900xtx , but now FSR4 int is possible and is a fair bit better overall IMO. i always used Optiscalar even if game had native support as i love being able to tweak the internal render rez to dial in to exact FPS cap.
And on FSR4 with Optiscalar you can set which mode to use regardless of render rez, so like how hardware unboxed said they found the balanced model to be better the quality in some regards , well you can now run the balanced model all the time :)
Firefox72@reddit
I'd argue MFG isn't really that much of a priority feature.
The things AMD is working on with Redstone are far more important.
Vb_33@reddit (OP)
MFG is good but so is Ray reconstruction which is coming with redstone. MFG is great when you have high framerates and a high fps monitor. Even eSports game streamers use frame gen now in eSports.
BlueSiriusStar@reddit
I mean they are a much better competitor compared to AMD just look at Panther Lake and Xe3P. AMD exists only till 2027 where we will have Nova Lake and much better processors and GPUs from Intel. At least I am more confident in them competing with Nvidia.
Content_Driver@reddit
This post is going to age worse than milk.
BleaaelBa@reddit
Rofl. weren't they supposed to be dead around 2015? you doomers are funny bunch.
BlueSiriusStar@reddit
You are even more funny. Didn't even mention 2015, and you start to defend a subpar company that can't even compete against Nvidia. What a joke.
Guillxtine_@reddit
Intel just did a right thing in copying industry leader. AMD was digging in a wrong direction and realized it too late, but with RDNA 4 they leapfrogged intel’s upscaling and RT cores, without any dedicated RT cores itself. MFG is yet to come, who knows which company will be first?
But I’m so happy intel is actually trying to earn ground in GPU market, can only pray one day duo/monopoly will end
Evilbred@reddit
Intel was able to start with a mostly clean slate design.
Nvidia has the money to brute force innovations.
virtualmnemonic@reddit
Intel released its first dGPU in 1998
Though they weren't serious about GPUs until Sandy Bridge came along with its HD 3000.
Noble00_@reddit
Thanks to r/IntelArc for spoiling this. Sarcasm aside, this is cool to see. Though, parts of me somewhat feel slightly disappointed that there isn't an update to the upscaler as DLSS4/FSR4 have leap frogged Intel. As for supporting MS Advanced Shader Delivery, this is great to see. AMD have already started to test it, to be specific, enable it for future support. That said, I feel much more confident in Intel's cadence in driver updates than AMD lol, but with the Asus Xbox handheld, it seems at least for Z2 products they'll be getting these precompiled shaders consistently... hopefully?
Vb_33@reddit (OP)
Shader delivery is very important for MS of they want to offer a shader stutterless experience (like consoles do) on PC given that all future Xboxes (including the official next gen Xbox) will be PCs from now on.
For Intel this is important because with Panther Lake they're making a big play for the handheld device market. With XeSS3, FG and MFG they have greatly superior software to FSR3 and with a new GPU architecture (Xe³) they'll have a GPU that is an improvement over current ones unlike AMD who is still stuck on RDNA3.5 on mobile till at least 2027 but likely 2028.
Ok-Reputation1716@reddit
Any estimate on when PL will be available? Or any news about the PL Handheld (presumably by MSI)?
Vb_33@reddit (OP)
Early 2026 for mass availability. But likely a very late 2025 launch like meteor lake.
NeroClaudius199907@reddit
Why didn't Intel get support of u/reddit_equals_censor to develop extrapolation. He already has the know how.
reddit_equals_censor@reddit
part 2:
____
now to the question why intel didn't go down glorious reprojection real frame generation or at least extrapolation.
intel graphics is done.
the arc team, that has done great work thus far it seems is basically mostly over and they are moving to nvidia graphics for their apus.
to properly push reprojection real frame generation you want it in the engines, but intel barely is even putting the latest upscaling from them in a ton of games.
so yeah intel wasn't gonna get reprojection real frame generation into unreal engine. i mean i would have loved to see them try. i mean they are still giants and it would have been amazing, but yeah intel is not investing in graphics at all anymore. it is a few more years and then it is intel apu with nvidia graphics tile almost all the way.
my guess why intel is throwing around bullshit multi fake interpolation frame generation is because marketing nonsense as the company struggles heavily.
"look we are doing the same thing, that amd and nvidia are doing" and also "look it is an ai feature, look look investors!".
the devs before that working on extrapolation at least understood, that interpolation sucks so bad, that it is unacceptable to even entertain the idea, but i guess that got overruled and it was copy amd/nvidia all the way for fake graphs for non features.
of course those are just reasonable guesses.
and again you are 100% correct, that intel should have worked on reprojection real frame generation instead (i assume you meant that with extrapolation), but well now our hope is with amd and nvidia.
nvidia, which claimed to soon release single frame + disregard source frame reprojection frame generation for the finals called reflex 2. and by soon i mean it got anounced 9 months ago and that was it. it is still not out at all..... :D
and just to quote the first comment under the nvidia marketing video:
but it never arrived it seems. so idk maybe give it another year as nvidia is busy making endless billions and not giving a shit about gamers?
reddit_equals_censor@reddit
weird way you wrote that.
i think you were mistaken there and said extrapolation, but meant reprojection real frame generation instead.
extrapolation is different and intel apparently actually worked on extrapolation for a bit, which you read a bit on here:
videocardz article talking about intel working on extrapolation:
https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-details-extrass-framework-featuring-frame-extrapolation-technology
and here is the famous great article by blurbusters explaining different technologies including extrapolation, interpolation and the glorious reprojection frame generation:
https://blurbusters.com/frame-generation-essentials-interpolation-extrapolation-and-reprojection/
to quote it:
this would mean in practice, that you wouldn't have the terrible unacceptable massive latency hit you get from interpolation fake frame generation.
and if this extrapolation would be good enough, it could have been a fine technology to have. it would inherently CRUSH interpolation fake frame generation, because it wouldn't hurt your performance as again the latency would stay the same. now as it would be guessing a future frame, that could be not great for certain things, but not worse than interpolation fake frame gen, as that already nukes certain animations for example specific walking animations get destroyed by it and what not.
but again extrapolation is NOT reprojection real frame generation. it can't get you the glorious 1000 fps at 1000 hz locked as it can't produce real frames. it only would fix moving picture motion clarity, but it could be an overall much better experience THEORETICALLY.
but we shouldn't waste resources in it and just throw the resources at reprojection real frame generation. defintion of that again:
the new important information is crucial. you look left, the frame gets warped to have it move left = warped frame responsiveness. and more advanced versions can include more movements and we can make things better from there, but even a shit version would be great.
and also crucial for now at least. reprojection is dirt cheap. as in it is extremely quick to run. so you easily reproject those 1000 fps from 100 fps without any performance problem if designed around it as the article talks about. you can know EXACTLY how long it will take to reproject a frame, so you can exactly lock at 1000 fps/hz no problem.
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