The Console That Wasn't: How the Commodore 64 Outsold Game Consoles
Posted by swe129@reddit | vintagecomputing | View on Reddit | 37 comments
Posted by swe129@reddit | vintagecomputing | View on Reddit | 37 comments
Desmaad@reddit
It helped that it was a more general-purpose device.
thetacticalpanda@reddit
Since the Nintendo in Japan was named Famicom (Family Computer) I once looked to see if there was any productivity software released for it, but I wasn't able to find any.
lw5555@reddit
The name Famicom was a play on the well-known term Pasocon (Personal Computer.)
There was some banking software, but that was about it.
thetacticalpanda@reddit
Cool! Trying to look up info, if you know the name of the software off hand let me know!
feel-the-avocado@reddit
It was just some random bank in japan that made a game cartridge for their customers that could dial up to the bank and perform various tasks which we would use internet banking for these days.
It was propriety and linked to the bank itself.
The name would have been something like "bankname home banking" in Japanese.
TheCatholicScientist@reddit
Family BASIC exists! I recently picked up a set: cart, keyboard, and two books.
emperorsolo@reddit
The Family Computer is a bit of a misnomer. In Japan, it was customary to call any piece of home electronics a “computer.” In fact, Sharp had trademarked the Famicom name for their line of microwave ovens.
SirTwitchALot@reddit
It was a better gaming system as well. Much more capable than something like the NES
Desmaad@reddit
Nah, the NES had better graphics and could handle more sprites at a time.
zSmileyDudez@reddit
There are things both do better than the other. By the end of the NES’s lifecycle, devs were pushing out much higher quality games than the N64 could’ve handled. A lot of this was out of necessity creating demand for hardware solutions like the various MMCs that Nintendo made available to use and bigger ROM sizes. The C64 for the most part stopped evolving hardware wise shortly after the NES started going here in the U.S.
Desmaad@reddit
C64 not N64.
zSmileyDudez@reddit
Autocorrect failed me - fixed now 😂
geon@reddit
It has more ram. That’s it. In every other aspect, the nes is objectively better as a gaming system.
swe129@reddit (OP)
agreed. Tramiel was a genius.
cheezballs@reddit
Everyone go pick up a new Commodore at commodore.net! They're back!
Marcio_D@reddit
Very inaccurate thesis... Shame on the author for lying. The C64 sold 12.5 million units. The Sega Master system sold close to 13 million units. The Atari 2600 sold 30 million units. The Nintendo Entertainment System sold 62 million units. Bottom line: The C64 outsold contemporary home computers, but not contemporary game consoles.
benjO0@reddit
yep but it should be pointed out that the 12.5 million includes combined total of C64 and C128 sales. The actual estimated C64 total is 10.5 million.
https://commodore.international/2021/07/05/how-many-c64-and-c128-were-actually-sold/
In addition to the NES and megadrive sales you listed above, the Atari 2600 sold 26 million units and the sega mastersystem sold around 10-13 million units which may not include the later licensed versions made in Brazil. Also if we compare C64 sales to computer platforms rather than individual systems, the C64/128 was actually outsold by PCs and Macs. By 1993 there were 12.7 million Macs sold while PC sales had hit 107 million and then 448 million sales between 1994-1999.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120629070215im_/http://jeremyreimer.com/totalshare0.gif
The C64 is a classic computer and did well against the American consoles of the 80s but to claim it "outsold" consoles is very misleading.
Marcio_D@reddit
You read my brief paragraph too fast. I didn't list Mega Drive sales. I listed Master System sales, and I did list Atari 2600 sales.
benjO0@reddit
yeah sorry. I was tabbing between an older thread and got the response mixed up. I've fixed now.
regeya@reddit
It helps that in 1983 dollars, you could have bought ten C64s for the price of a Mac.
TxM_2404@reddit
The Mac wasn't around until 1984. Regardless, by 1986 the Mac and the IBM AT were the most expensive and least capable 16-Bit machines, but somehow those are the big tech companies that still exist.
benjO0@reddit
in regards to PC capabilities; almost all business software, regardless of the platform, was text based so even a cheap monochrome XT clone would have worked perfectly fine. GUIs were good for beginners, but it would be some years before they were fast and practical enough to be a good a business solution. PCs were initially subpar when it came to gaming but they offered the best upgradability, raw CPU power (a 286 is roughly 50% faster than a 68000 at the same clock speed), peripherals, storage, keyboards, monitors, software compatibility, networking, serviceability, and access to locally sourced parts (meaning computers didn't need to be sent overseas for repairs). Thanks to rapidly dropping component prices they could cheaply upgraded and by 1990-1991 due to VGA's adoption, PCs started to become the premiere platform for next-gen games.
The problem with commodore's machines is that they were basically designed as consoles with keyboards. Even the Amiga was originally intended to be a console before it was redesigned as a true computer. The issue is that the consoles can get away with releasing entirely new systems every 3-5 years due to having lower initial costs (typically under $100 in the 80s) where as commodore's computers were just too expensive to do that. As result C64 owners stuck with the system long after the amiga was released because upgrading to new commodore computer was so expensive. Apple computers suffered from a similar design problem but because their niche in the 80s and 90s was education and desktop publishing rather than gaming, there was less need for them to be pushing hardware boundaries. That's why 80s era Macs were still being used in schools and libraries even in the early 2000s.
So in the end it was easier for most families to buy a console for the kids and a cheap PC for general use rather than invest in a single commodore computer with limited upgradability. That's why PCs and consoles dominated sales.
benjO0@reddit
IBMs machines were not as expensive as people think. They were not that much different in price from similar Commodore desktop systems while XT and AT clones were by far the cheapest disk-based desktop form-factor computers in the 80s. Even Commodore themselves sold PC clones at lower prices than their Amigas. While it was possible to make make all-in-one form factor wedge computers, the integrated keyboards, limited upgradability and storage options made these unsuitable for business use. For example this advertisement from a 1989 issue of Byte magazine gives a good comparison of prices at the time.
link: PC, Apple, and Commodore advertisement from 1989
In 1989 a Amiga 2000 was $1429 or $1999 with a 20mb HDD compared to $1579 for an 8086 PS/II model 30 with a 20mb HDD or $1829 for the 286 model. So a little more expensive but a smaller difference that most people realise. On the same page we can also see than AST 286 clones for $799 or $1049 with a hard drive. Just a year later it was possible to purchase a 286-16 with VGA for $489 or $1079 with a 40mb HDD and VGA monitor. Keep in mind that while an amiga 500 with a monitor and a 20mb hard drive at the time would have cost close to $1400.
link: 286 and 386 clones from 1990
Even if we go back to 1986; PC clones were still the cheapest desktop form factor machines with clone turbo XTs starting under $400 and clone 286s from $995. By comparison at that time the standard retail price for a C64 was $199 plus $50 for the datacorder or $200-220 for a 1541 disk drive and a C128 with a 1571 was around $550. So even back PC clones would have the cheapest viable business option.
link: XT and 286 clone from 1986
tristangough@reddit
They sold to more businesses than consumers.
DangerousBill@reddit
My son worked at Kitt Peak Observatory for a few years. He tells me their solar telescope is still run by a Commodore 64. It keeps on working and there's no reason to change it.
Trenchbroom@reddit
One more reason: piracy. I know that having 100 games at my fingertips (as opposed to a dozen or so NES cartridges, if that) was very appealing back then, even if 60% of the games weren't worth the cost of the blank disk you were storing them on, let alone the retail price.
Psy1@reddit
I would say that C64 sold well because it got huge momentum from its price war with TI and nobody really exploited C64 failing of poor disk performance and no OEM disk operating system like ProDos, AtariDos, OS-9, MSX-Dos. Even disk functionality was better in the basic of CoCo, MSX and Sharp X1 where with the files (or dir) command being used for listing what is on disks. The other 8-bit machines really did not drive home how bad the C64 was at file management out of the box though the C64 primary market might not have cared in that the C64 was cheap and there was 3rd party solutions to both problems like the Epyx Fast Load and JiffyDOS rom replacements for the C64 and 5141 drive.
nobody2008@reddit
So true. When you have a good machine overall at a great price all those shortcomings can be excusable. For every weakness C64 had other machines had one or two. No built-in DOS? Many people around the world used cassettes. If the machine cost more because of a built-in well-written DOS I wouldn't have owned a C64. Later I got a disk drive. Would I want to use a better DOS but an inferior game on an MSX, or use inferior DOS to access a better library? The latter would be my choice.
Psy1@reddit
MSX mostly had a problem gaining traction in Europe especially for the MSX2 and never launched in North America. Yet in Japan the MSX filled the same role as the C64 for that market due to its cost next to its competitors like the FM-7 and X1.
nobody2008@reddit
My friend had an MSX with a tape (this was in the Eurozone) and it was just meh. I have never heard or seen MSX2 untiI I started showing interest in retro computers. I bought a Japanese MSX2 last year (I live in the US), and put a virtual disk cart that works with an SD card. I was surprised to see how MSX-DOS was basically an early version of MS DOS which blows CBM-DOS out of the water.
Psy1@reddit
With the Dos in the 1541 even AppleDos does a better job and that is just Apple Basic with disk and file commands bolted on. It is by 3rd party Dos Wedges were common for the C64.
sstoffel@reddit
It did quite well in the Netherlands as Philips embraced it. Spain wasn't too bad either.
redditshreadit@reddit
It helped that many stores stopped selling game consoles, and the two biggest, Atari Inc and Mattel Electronics stopped making them.
Accollon@reddit
My heart will always belong to the Atari 800 but from what I have read the C64 came out latter, did not have to deal with the RF Interference regulations the Atari 800 had to deal with, was inexpensive, and easier to program then the Atari 800.
It’s a compilation of factors that pretty much dictate any winner in a tech war.
Best tech does not always when. Inexpensive and easy to program seems to win each time.
Important-Bed-48@reddit
The c64 started out as a copy of the 800 but it had advantages since it came out later. The big selling point that started it's dominance was it was designed to be inexpensive. By the time Atari made cheaper to manuf xls and later xes the c64 had already won the war.
JimJohnJimmm@reddit
And its graphics and sound were better or at least on par with systems that were much more expensive
Bang for buck was incredible for that period
lazygerm@reddit
I mean, really. If you were of a certain age and I was.
The C64 offered affordable computing, more games than you could shake a stick at and you could actually for school.