Harry's garage Lotus Emira i4 vs v7

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llamacohort@reddit

The V7 is obviously the natural evolution of the VW VR5. lol

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ImpressionEqual3998@reddit

An V7 would sound like an mix of an V4 and a V6.

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gdnws@reddit

If VW had kept up with their 90's and early 2000's engine madness, they probably would have done it for no other reason than because they could.

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It still blows my mind that there was a V shaped 5 cylinder engine that had a firing order of a circle and it was somehow balanced enough to put in a production car. It just sounds like absolute nonsense.

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Deathcon-H@reddit

Magic of the VR5 isnt completely lost in the states. The VR6 is almost directly proportionately better. 1/6th heavier and makes roughly 1/6th more power. Power to weight is neat identical. Sounds very unique too

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llamacohort@reddit

I think the VR6 sounds fine, but I think it is way different than the VR5. I agree that if I was racing the 2, I would want the VR6. But if I was ranking them based on their sound, the VR5 would be way ahead of the VR6.

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Deathcon-H@reddit

Have you heard them both irl?

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llamacohort@reddit

Clearly not. But I’ve heard plenty of VR6 IRL and I have never been impressed. So unless a VR5 sounds like trash in person and just sounds better over speakers, then I’m pretty confident they sound different.

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Deathcon-H@reddit

Clearly not? Youve been talking about them both quite a bit for little experience. Simply put: if you dont like the sound of vr6 you wont like the sound of the vr5. They sound a little different but both have the clear "vr" soundtrack. Theyre both unmistakably VolksWagen

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llamacohort@reddit

>Clearly not? Youve been talking about them both quite a bit for little experience. Some of that talking was about how they were never shipped to the US. And there is very little overlap on legal import and the beginning of their production at the moment. >if you dont like the sound of vr6 you wont like the sound of the vr5. They sound a little different but both have the clear "vr" soundtrack It seems very weird to have a pretty large difference in video and nothing different in person. Between some compilation videos and individuals, I've probably heard close to 100 of them. And even going back after your comment and listening to VR6 that are stock and with custom exhaust, I don't think they sound the same. And everything I've listened to have been in cars. Surprisingly, nothing much from the SUVs in that type of content.

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Deathcon-H@reddit

Man you really need to go drive a vr car thats been opened up. It will change your mind. Videos and sound clips are so ass. You gotta realize youre talking about what is recognized as one of the best sounding 6 cylinders ever made and that opinion isnt drawn from nowhere. Sounds clips are so ass 😭 drive a vr car

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llamacohort@reddit

>Man you really need to go drive a vr car thats been opened up. It will change your mind. Videos and sound clips are so ass. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I've seen and been in VR6 cars. Are you telling me that I need to drive a VR5 car to realize that it's shit? Are you telling me that listing to a VR6 in person doesn't count if I'm not driving? >You gotta realize youre talking about what is recognized as one of the best sounding 6 cylinders ever made and that opinion isnt drawn from nowhere. Having been on this forum for a very long time and into cars for about 2 decades, I've never seen much enthusiasm for the VR6 outside of from my dad. One of the best sounding 6 cylinders ever is something I've literally never heard before. I've seen people put it above a V6, but behind every inline and flat 6 for general rankings, but that is about it. Anyways, I'm sorry that my opinion seems to make you feel compelled to argue on the internet. But one thing in for sure, if clips suck for showing sound quality, black and white text is a lot worse.

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desf15@reddit

It was even more absurd. It produced 150HP, and there were cars in VW group which in parallel offered 1.8T with also 150HP. Just pick if you prefer to have turbo or quirky cylinder setup.

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DeltaRocket@reddit

There was some recent news that VW made a W10 engine from two VR5s back in 2000ish. Apparently, it was very smooth and didn't have to have split crankpins They stuck it into an E39 BMW M5 test mule, and the VW CEO at the time liked it so much that he daily drove it. So the first ten-cylinder M5 was actually the E39 lol.

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gdnws@reddit

Ok, I knew that the vr5 was an oddball, but that is really out there. The vr6 is wild too; it has a fairly typical inline 6 firing order(153624) however it is laid out with all odds on one bank and evens on the other. Which means it fires everything on one bank then the other.

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llamacohort@reddit

Yeah, truly a oddity in the engine world. I bring up the VR5 from time to time. Mostly to tell Americans about it. We never got it here in the states and I honestly think that if anyone loves the uneven sound of a cross-plane crank V8, they likely also love the sound of a VR5 with a decent exhaust, they just never heard it yet. The firing order plus the fact that 3 cylinder have to run exhaust through the block for a longer distance makes for a lot of character.

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gdnws@reddit

Having had both a 5 cylinder and an 8 cylinder car, I like both well enough. If we had gotten those vr5s here, they probably would have been on my radar; when I was last car shopping I had considered trying to get my hands on a w8 passat. I don't like how our engine choice is largely now what power level do you want from your inline 4.

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wtfthisisntreddit@reddit

Don't doubt this at all, they put a prototype VR10 in an E39 BMW M5

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gdnws@reddit

At some point it just becomes showing off. And I welcome it.

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rm2601@reddit

Though I often think about what an Inline 7 would be like, just because. Or better yet, a VR7. VW showed that the VR5 was possible, so there may be potential for a VR7. Though, the reality is that it would not be worth investing in a new engine.

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josh_moworld@reddit

Definitely a reason to upgrade if it has one more cylinder lol

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Godvater@reddit

These cars were getting compared to gts 4.0 when announced now they are in gt4/ sypder territory. I am sorrry but I am happily paying the extra 10-15% for a 4.0 flat 6 Porsche.

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argote@reddit

> I would definitely buy a LC500 instead That's a completely different car though. Almost 5000 lbs.

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Godvater@reddit

Definitely a different driving experience I just love the thing so much that if I have 100k$ lying around for a 2 door coupe/cabrio I am getting the LC500 every time, can’t help it. And this is coming from someone who lives near Nürburgring/Spa.

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Promit@reddit

Okay no, you cannot remotely hope to buy a friggin GT4 in this price range. A 718 GT4 is $130k+ used and new it’s- oh look, orders are closed. $95k is a lot of money but it is not GT4 money.

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steamrallywrongun@reddit

Exactly right - Sure I can use the online configurator to spec out a GT4 but if I called my Porsche dealership it would "whoa, whoa, whoa, what cars have you bought from us recently? What's your relationship with Porsche Canada like?" I called Lotus and the dude was like "Sweet, it's a $2500 refundable deposit and you'll get your car next year sometime."

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Geofferz@reddit (OP)

Used 2020 gts with 7-10k on the clock is about the same price as the 48 used 2023 emiras on uk autotrader right now-70k-75k gbp or so. But porsches hold their value well. 718 does come in a drop top mind...

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mintz41@reddit

So you're comparing a 3 year old car with a brand new one?

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Geofferz@reddit (OP)

Yes, a new porsche is obviously therefore way more expensive.

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Godvater@reddit

There are very slightly used (<10k kms, <1 year old) GT4/Spyders around 120k€. And Emiras are around 100k€ (V6). Brand new GTS 4.0s are in that price range as well. Yes, you can spec a Porsche to the moon but the 120k€ spyders are not specced horribly.

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GTImad@reddit

With the I4 being almost as much as the V6, who would honestly choose the I4?

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PossiblePlatypus@reddit

Right now while the V6 is still offered, no idea unless you really want something more tuner-friendly, which I think the I4 wins on. Eventually though, the I4 will be the only option and the V6 will be dropped.

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earoar@reddit

At which point they’ll see sales collapse imo.

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Crownlol@reddit

Just like everyone said no one would ever be buying any 718s and it would ruin the brand. Turns out /r/cars doesn't speak for much of the real world

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earoar@reddit

You’re aware that the 718 is selling much worse than the cayman/boxster did right? I feel like you proved my point.

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nucleartime@reddit

Eh, they were selling fine before the pandemic. Then Porsche basically stopped making the 4 cylinder versions for a year (2021 production numbers are basically a couple dozen for the US) because of supply constraints and ever since then it's mostly been an allocation game for the GTS 4.0 and up because why make less money on a car.

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kuddlesworth9419@reddit

Probably, they have had really great sales for the launch cars where it was outpacing production by a lot. My guess is that it's because people know the V6 is going yo go out of production but that is the car the potential customer wants not the 4 banger. They have ramped up production but if sales drop off like a cliff when they discontinue the V6 that won't be good. And why would you get the I4 when you can get a Cayman for less? I just don't see the point in it whent he V6 exists and the Cayman exists.

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GerassicPark@reddit

Certain countries have really high tax on cars with larger engines. I’m sure the I4 is made for these markets.

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Corsair4@reddit

Going off of Harry's numbers in the video, if you're spending >80,000 pounds on a 2 door sports car, are you really that concerned about ~1000 pounds extra per year on tax?

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BinaryStrigoi@reddit

In China for example the I4 is $119K and the V6 is $155K

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Corsair4@reddit

And how many Lotus's are sold in China? The most recent numbers I can find are from [2021](https://www.best-selling-cars.com/brands/2021-full-year-global-lotus-worldwide-sales-and-top-markets/) (so, pre Emira but it's the best I can do), indicating that out of ~1700 cars, Japan was the number 2 market with just 305 sold. China is way down there at the number 10 position, which would be well under 100 units. The markets where Lotus sells well (US, UK) either have no appreciable engine/displacement tax or one that is very affordable for the target demographic of people spending 80 grand on a 2 door sports car. The markets where there IS an appreciable difference between the model prices, Lotus is selling literally dozens of cars, which makes me wonder how they manage to recoup the development costs of integrating 2 powertrains (even if they save a ton of money by outsourcing all the development of those powertrains). Lotus's big China expansion is planned to be off the back of EVs. Ignoring the... optimistic projections on that front, I don't see ICEs being a huge factor in that market for Lotus at all.

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RacerKaiser@reddit

Other brands do this as well. The DBX has a china only straight six.

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Corsair4@reddit

There is a HUGE difference between the straight six hybrid DBX (435 hp) and the full fat turbo V8 (~550-700) hp. In contrast, The 2.0T Emira makes 360 hp compared to the V-6s 400. If you're that concerned about the financial penalty of the large engine... why not just make all Emiras the small engine? 40 hp is not a huge gap, and the M139 can make way more than 400hp. They're offering 2 powertrains at basically the same performance, when they could have just offered the one - and probably saved on development costs. Even taking into account that they're just buying powertrains from Mercedes and Toyota, they still had to engineer the rest of the vehicle to be compatible with 2 different power trains for as far as I can figure - no actual benefit.

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PrivateVasili@reddit

In one of Harry's videos where he was at the factory while his own car was on the line there were supposedly a whole bunch of Chinese cars on the line. I don't remember the details off the top of my head, but there was some badging difference somewhere on the car which he asked the Lotus guys about and was told they were for the Chinese market. That says there's at least some market there, and it would make sense if that was a target market for growth given Geely owns them now.

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GerassicPark@reddit

It’s not about the yearly tax, certain countries will charge 10’s of thousands more for the V6 when buying new.

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Corsair4@reddit

So they make 2 different versions, with nearly identical price and performance, so the small volume markets where there is significant financial incentive (Lotus's biggest markets are US, Japan and UK) are served. Why not just... not make the supercharged V6 in that case? It's not like there's an enormous performance differential there.

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Chriswheela@reddit

Posers who want to drive an auto, honestly a lot of people who drive exotic cars actually can’t drive manuals, so it delivers similar performance and looks for a little less. Basically idiots :) although I’m sure there can be some valid reasons someone can only drive an auto so fair enough

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StackDividends@reddit

Jesus you guys take this shit way too seriously.

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JALbert@reddit

I mean, did you watch the video? They seemed to think the I4 would be a better daily, and agreed that it handled better from having a lower center of gravity. Harry also felt he'd be quicker in the I4 on a track and they the performance was more accessible with the I4. There were plenty of points for the other side as well, but they did a pretty good job of answering *why* one might get the I4.

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ScipioAfricanvs@reddit

I legitimately don't know. With the Camaro, you could argue for the price, the 4 banger is just about as capable as the V8 on track due to weight and balance (Randy Pobst bought one after all) and it's obviously much cheaper. Here, I have no idea how you could justify the I4.

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NetworkStatic@reddit

wanting the DCT would be one reason for it. Also, the engine being designed with forced induction in mind, would be easier to modify for more output than an NA powerplant that doesn't have forced induction plumbing already. I'm not sure the mercedes mill has a ton left up top from a reliability perspective though.

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Geofferz@reddit (OP)

5% cheaper. Ain't no one choosing that on cost.

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AdventurousDress576@reddit

Best of the 3 gearboxes (Merc's 8DCT), lighter. About that.

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GTImad@reddit

Agreed with the gearbox but it's only 30 kgs lighter lol

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Promit@reddit

Harry is about as friendly a reviewer as Lotus was going to get and the I4 review really needed to be glowing for the price they are asking. It wasn’t. An exercise in adequacy bodes poorly for them imo.

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donutsnail@reddit

The price difference being as small as it is surprised me, but I figure the differences may be larger elsewhere, especially when taxes for things like C02 or displacement come into play. Lotus don’t come out with new cars very often and offering this turbo 4 feels a bit like future-proofing the Emira. The SCV6 is lovely but that engine is getting on in years. Emissions regulations may be a hurdle for it in various markets in the coming years

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surf_greatriver_v4@reddit

it's priced to upsell you to the V6, but if someone _really_ wanted the I4, they'll get scammed for it.

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Promit@reddit

Top Gear mentioned in their video that the V6 isn’t sold in China and it’s rumored that the I4 model makes ~400 hp there.

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NoctD@reddit

Pretty much this - new owners wanted a car for the Chinese market. I doubt Lotus is building enough V6’s to satisfy ROW demand either.

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Geofferz@reddit (OP)

I reckon most people would've got the manual anyway. Though that's impossible to show now. Price. Difference is negligible, don't suppose lotus cares which people will buy. Wonder what the development costs were for the i4 though? Same car, doner motor and trans

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desf15@reddit

I think that I4 might have longer market live than V6, hence development costs might make sense. I wouldn't be surprised if Lotus announce in 2 years that V6 is not compliant with EU7 or sth and replace it ith 420HP version of AMG I4.

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reward72@reddit

I wish they spent that development money on a targa or convertible version. I want my weekend canyon carver to be open top. I miss my Miata too much.

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Geofferz@reddit (OP)

Me too 100%

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Imtherealwaffle@reddit

the had to change the rear subframe to accommodate the i4 which factors in to the development costs too

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Geofferz@reddit (OP)

Interesting. Yeah, that wouldn't be a rounding error I don't suspect.

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Sensitive-Dress-8141@reddit

V6? More like Vwhy settle when you can have V7! 😄🚀

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Robjchapm@reddit

The Emira as a whole has been a pain to try and buy in the US. Been trying for about a year. I was on the fence with either the 4 or 6, 4’s engine is more centered and the car handles better, the 6 for the sound and every so slightly quicker.

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Geofferz@reddit (OP)

4 is quicker I believe. There are 48 used on uk auto trader most with <3k miles on the clock. 45 under retail.

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asdfoneplusone@reddit

I went to the emira factory, lotus said to me the i4 exists for markets with emissions regs that would make the v6 too expensive. They also told me the i4 is not quicker even with the dct

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Geofferz@reddit (OP)

Interesting! Thanks.

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nbaumg@reddit

Iv never understood the reason someone might pick the i4 and based on the rumor mill it sounds like dealers are having a harder time filling the allocations

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hi_im_bored13@reddit

Above everything else this car is just drop dead gorgeous

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xeonoex@reddit

It's beautiful. The design team needs a raise because they sold probably 99% of these. It really is an Evora 1.5. Just upgraded exterior and interior. I was close to buying one. It's close to perfect.

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Geofferz@reddit (OP)

Can confirm. I tracked one at Thruxton and now I want one. Though a great used 911 turbo is available for the dollar...

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SithSidious@reddit

One thing that stood out to me is how the I4 doesn’t really sound different when progressing towards the redline. Doesn’t sound great at baseline, but then it just stays the same throughout the entire range. Not really what I would look for in a sports car

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the_issue_tissue@reddit

I bet they still sell a bunch of these even though the competition is this price range buries this car just because of the “exotic” factor. These will lose value pretty quickly though as they won’t be sought after by enthusiasts but I guarantee the manual will hold it’s value for years. In 2-3 years I bet you’ll be able to scoop one up used in the high 50’s- low 60’s.

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