In Spain, what once seemed impossible is now widespread: the young are turning to the far right
Posted by BabylonianWeeb@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 535 comments
SunderedValley@reddit
This is the key part of the article. They're done with the ruling duopoly and don't think reform is possible.
KarlBarx2@reddit
So they support the far right, which will only make those problems worse. Genius.
clickrush@reddit
It’s actually genius of the far right to make people believe that they have the solutions.
Generally speaking, right wing politicians often have an unearned advantage when it comes to messaging around economics. They almost always make things worse, but sometimes do it in a way that benefits some portion short term (see: Thatcher).
They far right however, often don’t even pretend that they have economic solutions. They go straight to grievance, scapegoating and focus on identity politics. I think it’s astonishing that it works at all.
I have someone in my inner circle who fell for some of those narratives. But slowly they start seeing through the bullshit, because we keep engaging and discussing, lay out facts etc. All based on respect and mutual understanding.
Nobody is immune from it and we as regular people are at a massive disadvantage against the mass propaganda mill, the intentional division and hatemongering.
DavidAdamsAuthor@reddit
It works because when people engage with the far left they get called Nazi bigot racist white males who should die in a ditch, and when they interact with the far right, the far right say, "I love you, I will serve your interests."
Who would you rather support? The people screaming at you that you are inherently worthless and should die, or the people who claim to be willing to fight and die for you?
ShootmansNC@reddit
lmao
DavidAdamsAuthor@reddit
Of course I am. Believe it or not, most people in the middle don't like being called Nazi scum for having the most milquetoast opinions imaginable about day to day life.
ShootmansNC@reddit
https://i.imgur.com/RRNthJs.jpg
DavidAdamsAuthor@reddit
Being a centrist doesn't mean you don't hold beliefs, it means that you understand that the most extreme position is not the most correct one in almost every situation.
PM-me-youre-PMs@reddit
Thing is, you have the right/far right coalescing around a figure that (among many other things, but to take the most "mask off" one) says immigrants "poison the blood of the nation", paraphrasing actual nazi propaganda. If I see anyone reacting to this with anything else than outright defiance and hostility, I will of course be deeply suspicious of their motivations.
DavidAdamsAuthor@reddit
We live in a time of political extremes. On the other end, we have far-left activists saying "straight white men are terrorists" and "kill all men". Said overtly and openly. The kinds of things that would make Nazis blush if said about the Jews, but here they are.
A lot of people ask, "why is society turning to the right?" and it's not that mysterious or complicated. The left decided that straight white men were "male, pale and stale" and that "one simply cannot be racist against whites, definitionally", and straight white men decided that wasn't cool, and the right wing went, "We'll support you and shit on everyone else".
It's not that hard to imagine that when faced with a situation where a group of people had to choose between option A) who was openly calling for their disempowerment and genocide and option B) who was openly saying they would support them and love them, that they went with option B.
PM-me-youre-PMs@reddit
"far-left activists saying "straight white men are terrorists" and "kill all men"" got any source for that ? And yassrizz69420 on twitter is not an actual source, I mean someone with any sort of traction on left wing politics ? Not asking you for an elected president.
Or you're just making shit up ?
Also please explain how you can be discriminated against on the basis of your "race" in a country where you belong to the majority group ? White landlord will refuse to rent a flat to you because you're white ? White employers will refuse you a job because you're white ? How does it make sense ?
DavidAdamsAuthor@reddit
Sure:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2018/11/01/cnn-don-lemon-comment-white-men/1843131002/
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/20/us/angry-white-men-trials-blake-cec
And:
https://www.centreformalepsychology.com/male-psychology-magazine-listings/why-its-not-ok-to-say-kill-all-men (source has examples)
https://open.spotify.com/show/718l0IH1DFTIB9EaHtgRKu (it's common enough to be a spotify podcast)
Or I went to university and saw this kind of thing first hand.
It's possible to discriminate against someone who is the majority group, otherwise it would be impossible to discriminate against black people in South Africa, because they are the largest group. You would never say that, come on.
Yes, white liberals will say, "I hate white men", it happens.
Yes, affirmative action is a real thing, it was ruled constitutionally illegal, but it happened in my lifetime and many activists want to bring it back.
Turns out it's possible to dislike discrimination against white people and black people.
PM-me-youre-PMs@reddit
Ok so none of your links make your point. We have one "white men are the biggest terror threat", which is not "all men are terrorists", and actually, if men commit the majority of the violence and the majority of men are white then statistically...
To support your "kill all men" claim you found one highly regarded "activist" from the 60s, 87 anonymous twitter profiles and one comedy podcast ? Are you joking ? Are you fucking joking ? You fucking piece of shit wasting my time.
Your "answer" on racism is very highly regarded too. I said "majority" instead of specifying of "group with the more social and economic power" you got me, well done, applaud yourself. That' sad, that's very sad, "where the gap in his comment where I can pretend I don;t understand what we're talking about so I can answer something that is not totally incorrect in one possible hypothetical fringe scenario", well done.
Affirmative action is not racism. White landlord refusing a flat to a white person because they hate white people....well... I mean, I'm not gonna say that's impossible. I guess it can happen. How often did it happen to you, of all the time you were looking for a house ?
Anyway, you're really making shit up, and the bottom of the matter is you're saying it's ok for the president to use nazi propaganda because some random account of twitter may have had "kill all men" in their bio (according to a random website).
So I think it's very understandable that peoples may suspect you of sympathy for the nazi ideology.
DavidAdamsAuthor@reddit
But they don't, 9/11 alone dwarfs all other statistics. Even excluding that, per-capita, it's still Muslims.
Could you imagine a "kill all blacks" comedy podcast? And when I say "comedy" that's just what it's labelled as in Spotify, they spend their whole time talking crime statistics and why they are afraid of blacks.
If you want more examples go find them yourself, the fact is this stuff happens, it's not punished, and if your argument is I have to provide all examples of every time this has happened I don't know what to tell you.
"I said majority and you didn't interpret that to mean something other than majority in a way that was most favourable to my argument, wowwwww."
But okay, let's go with "group with more social and economic power", per-capita this is Jewish-Americans or Indian-Americans. By that logic it should be okay to discriminate against those people but not against straight white men, right?
Guessing you're going to say, "Nooo when I said most social and economic power clearly I meant the majority group", right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v._Harvard
Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard, 600 U.S. 181 (2023), is a landmark decision[1][2][3][4] of the United States Supreme Court ruling that race-based affirmative action programs in most[b] college admissions violate the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Affirmative action was found in 2023 to be illegal, racist discrimination. I don't know what to tell you.
Not that specifically, but other forms of anti-white and anti-men discrimination have happened to me, including (get this) making a formal complaint to my university because a local on-campus feminist writer told me to my face, "Kill all men". I asked her if she was joking, she said no. I complained. The unverisity discrimination represesntative told me straight to my face that "no complaint supporting or or behalf of straight white men (or part thereof) would ever be actioned." This was despite me having clear printouts of the student code of conduct that showed it to be obviously against the rules.
Pretty shitty, but I guess I was just making stuff up there too, right?
PM-me-youre-PMs@reddit
Ah you went so far deep your little akshuallys that you lost sight of the point. Thanks. Now explain to me how supporting Harris against Trump would be an endorsment of that podcast or the 60s crazy bitch or the anonymous accounts on twitter ? Or explain to me how supporting Trump against Harris is actually not endorsing his dehumanizing speech on migrants ? Do you understand the difference ? How are you getting out of that one now, eh ?
Regarding your university, they lied to you. They do actually action complaints for other white men but not for you because they hate you personally you insufferable PCM-posting cunt. They hoped that would make you leave.
mkdabra@reddit
Yeah sure buddy, that sure is something that happens to normal people and not the product of you holding some weird reactionary views and folks telling you to fuck off.
The far right spends the whole day scapegoating minorities, attacking women, sucking off foreign powers to the detriment of "their people" all while lying about immigrants... I guess you didn't register that as some form of hostile attitude towards people, maybe 'cause when you think "people" you don't picture women or minorities.
DavidAdamsAuthor@reddit
Yeah, being called a Nazi for having moderate opinions is definitely not a common centrist experience, that's definitely why a lot of people complain about it.
Upset-Basil4459@reddit
The left will bring in more immigrants which won't help much either
Prosthemadera@reddit
Yes, yes, of course, it's always about hating the Other. Any talk about economics is just a pretense because far rights idiots would crush the economy just to keep brown people out. Just like for Brexit.
But immigrants aren't the ones who are harming the country. It's billionaires but far right people don't have a problem with them. No, they love billionaires, why do you think billionaires often donatento the far right? This is just one more reason why voting for far right parties is stupid. But hate is a strong emotion and supercedes critical thinking about what's actually best.
Immigrants are always the scapegoat and people fall for it over and over and over again. They did 200 years ago and they still do. Do humans ever learn? Some certainly don't.
Upset-Basil4459@reddit
Calling the right hateful is divisive
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Well the left criticizes, speaks down to, and insults them... The snobby obnoxious elitism of the left is their single biggest flaw. People just can't stand them. Meanwhile, the right will gladly take in anyone and everyone and aren't going to grandstand and moralize against you for every little disagreement.
Like just 10 years ago, being a lefty who's anti vax was fine and no one really cared. Today if you admit to it, you get attacked as a literal killer with blood on your hands.
Socraman@reddit
Indeed the left needs to actually get out of the universities and start talking with the actual working class and hear their grievances. They are real, even if their perceived solutions are wrong, and talking to them with superiority will just push them away.
As an example. You don't go to some miners who protests for the closing of a coal mine and say to them: "we will need to close this it's bad for the environment and you're bigots and want to destroy the planet. if you wanna keep it open". They will hate you. You need to go with "we need new and better jobs for you, working in a mine sucks and it's bad for our future, so let's find out a way of making new jobs for you and your community, and helping you retire with dignity".
reddit_is_geh@reddit
The purity tests are just too much... Even solutions like yours aren't realistic. No 45 year old is going to vote for people who tell them that they need a midlife career change... Or "Learn to code" that was the meme 6 years ago.
Or they just have to get over that most working class people aren't all in on gender theory and find it weird teaching 7 year olds about how they are actually a different gender. The left will die on that hill, call them killers, and insist that they don't "bigots" in their coalition... Or telling young men who just wanna get laid that their masculinity is toxic, and working out is a conservative coded thing. And thus continue to lose as the only remaining people in the coalition are woke super progressive teenagers.
Seriously the woke shit was the worst thing to ever happen to the left. My tin foil hat wants to say it was intentional. During OWS when it was class focused it left out all the upper class trust fund activists who basically dominate the political activist scene. So they made the intentional pivot away from a class focus to gender identities and shit.
Socraman@reddit
I think you're not giving the 45 year-old miner enough benefit of the doubt. Do you think miners genuinely enjoy the job itself? It's a hard, physical, and dangerous job. They do it because it pays reasonably well, allows them to be proud of it and be part of their community. That's it. That most of what the working class wants.
"Learn to code" is bullshit. But economic planning is not bullshit. The problem with all deindustrialization processes is no the closing of the factories itself. It's that the workers had no jobs to replace the factory with, the community broke down, and it was replaced by shitty jobs, crime and drugs.
If instead you actually plan the economy (I know, a heresy in neoliberalism), you can start to think. "We need to phase down coal, and coal mining. What can we put there to replace the role coal mining had in the community?" and implement plans to reach it, including yes, training. They'll prefer that than losing their jobs. That is already miles better than leaving it all to the fucking free market like we've been doing for over 40 years. Because the free market cannot think about long term, it only thinks on short-term profits, so if it's easier to make a tech startup in the capital city, it'll do that, instead of risking a new kind of industry to replace the outdated mining or factories that closed down. That's where the State should act.
I agree with you about the "conspiracy theory". The shift away from class has been conscious and deliberate. And that's not to disparage the work of academia in identifying intersectionality, that's fair. After all it's academia, they're there to research stuff. But politicians and journalists? You bet they've done it on purpose. And that's cause they're in the pockets of billionaires who'd be fucked if people were as class-conscious as they were 100 years ago.
batmans_stuntcock@reddit
But the right (when they're smart) have often framed making things worse for lots of the population as being anti-establishment, so it kind of makes sense. It obviously doesn't survive them being actually in power for very long though, unless they can offer their young voters something they will desert them. Trump has already lost most of his gen-z voters last time I looked.
vlntly_peaceful@reddit
That seems to be the underlying issue worldwide. Blatantly corrupt - sorry lobbying - politicians filling their pockets while not giving to fucks about the population they're supposed to represent, especially the younger generations.
oh_what_a_surprise@reddit
What their real problem is, and most don't want to face it because you can't vote it away and it provides so much, is capitalism.
Capitalism is late-stage and it is crumbling. Right on top of the people.
moderngamer327@reddit
People have been saying we are in late stage capitalism for a at least a century now
vlntly_peaceful@reddit
Yeah, that was around the first time capitalism jumped into bed with fascism. Which is just the way these things go, because people with power/money don't want to give that up and will happily side with the dictator. Or you skip the political theatre and just rule by yourself, see Russia.
This time Peter Thiel and his ragtag crew of insecure billionaires want to go a step further and are aiming for techno feudalism. Isn't that fun?
Glum_Sentence972@reddit
You say that as if Marxists did not jump into bed with fascism too. Marxists ran interference by claiming that fighting fascism was imperialism when the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact was formed.
moderngamer327@reddit
Capitalists may like fascism but capitalism itself is inherently opposed to it
vlntly_peaceful@reddit
Who could have thought letting companies accumulate more power than governments is bad?
Like, people can shittalk China all they want and there are more than enough reasons. But their economic model is simply superior. They lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty and became the manufacturing and economic powerhouse.
poptix@reddit
Have you seen what's happening to their car industry, or all of those empty buildings? It's not great.
vlntly_peaceful@reddit
The car industry that's not allowed to sell their EVs in Europe because it would take out all European EVs?
poptix@reddit
https://www.reuters.com/investigations/china-is-sending-its-world-beating-auto-industry-into-tailspin-2025-09-17/
Crazyjackson13@reddit
glances over at the sweatshops
moderngamer327@reddit
China’s economic model is so far from superior. Like it’s not even CLOSE. They have been stuck in the developing status for around a century. Most of their contemporaries have far outpaced them in almost every metric. Sure they got a ton of people out of poverty but when you have the second largest population on earth that’s going to be the case. If you look at their per capita metrics they are far behind
SoberGin@reddit
Dread it, run from it, material analysis arrives all the same.
The material conditions of the people determine policy. If you entirely focus on pushing away the left, the public will eventually see the left as non-viable since they can never really win (or always immediately cave to the right) and the moderate right as unwilling to act. It's only natural they'd go far right to compensate.
ShootmansNC@reddit
Fascism is not a threat to capital so it's in the interest of those that own the capital to oppose leftists advances at any cost and encourage the growth of fascism.
SoberGin@reddit
Yep.
Ideological Liberals oppose fascism, but their ideology is inherently against the necessary measures needed to resist it. It's the "Angrily worded letter" school of ideological defense. Challenging the man who doesn't believe in words or truth to a debate, a fight that relies on both sides to believe in words and truth.
Doctor-Malcom@reddit
The underlying issue is that the Westphalian nation-state that we know as the United States or France are no longer the dominant institutions. That is now the mega-corporations such as Amazon or Apple, and the effect of this shift is a transnational issue of extreme inequality, both by net worth and by income.
If you are under 40, what are the chances that you can buy a house, start your own business or secure decent employment, and have a better quality of life than those born between 1945 and 1980?
Beyond that, what are the chances that the governmental system is responsive to ordinary people like you? This is why undemocratic countries where things work and public projects are managed effectively, such as Singapore or the UAE, are more attractive to younger people who are fed up of the dysfunction and rot.
moderngamer327@reddit
Outside of buying a house living standard are way better now than in the 40-80s
Prosthemadera@reddit
Really? Spanish people vote far right because they find Saudi Arabia's system appealing?
Also, I don't think Saudi Arabia works effectively. They waste billions on stupid megaprojects because it's all a corrupt scheme.
Prosthemadera@reddit
The stupid part about this is that they think the far right is better. No, they are worse and these voters are fucking up their country and themselves for stupid reasons and without thinking and then later they will cry about how they didn't vote for this. Yes, you did, you moron.
I was hoping people would use the current state of the US as a negative example but some don't learn, do they? They need to experience the pain themselves before they learn.
Elegant-Data3162@reddit
Same thing is going on in the United States where I’m from
DracoLunaris@reddit
pedantic note: the politicians are lobbied, not lobbying
jpatt@reddit
Yeah, all I’ve seen from Spain lately is the housing crisis with foreigners buying all of the real estate for vacation or rental properties. Its an easy target to lay the blame for their current economic problems.
It’s becoming a problem everywhere, not necessarily foreigners, but the rich buying up all of the properties and inflating rent and housing costs.
RydderRichards@reddit
But.... Why vote for the even richer Fucks then?! Hasn't Trump shown that that doesn't work?
SunderedValley@reddit
Because they don't think anyone is able or willing to improve things. They're simply out for revenge. Same as with a lot of people who voted Trump.
It's not about believing in positive change it's about enacting vengeance because they've been so thoroughly disillusioned that it's the only difference they think voting is gonna make anymore.
superspacetrucker@reddit
Sounds like right wingers as as awful as they've been called all this time. Weird how you want them to be coddled some more?
SunderedValley@reddit
Ah. I don't think we're talking about the same thing anymore. Be
Crazyjackson13@reddit
So.. they think the far right are gonna do something?
SunderedValley@reddit
Take the jobs of the people who're currently in charge. It is not about change. It is about revenge.
NNKarma@reddit
I don't get how people go from that point towards being right wing.
SunderedValley@reddit
It's a form of deliberate political & societal arson. It's not about seeing the world differently it's that they consider hard right the best way to drive the entire system off a cliff.
It's not turning things around. They don't believe such a thing to be possible. It's about making sure the people responsible are out of jobs.
Elegant-Data3162@reddit
Sadly this isn’t the case. History repeats itself constantly you know. Most things in this world act like se-saws.
-o0__0o-@reddit
Is the left wing propaganda here with us right now?
Elegant-Data3162@reddit
No, it was for a few years. That’s why we’re seeing most of gen z turning far right, just like right wing propaganda basically causing millennials to turn to the left.
ThatHeckinFox@reddit
*Know
They know reform is impossible.
Of course, turning to the Nazis is the exact opposite they should be doing. Fascism is just capitalism in crisis. They all say that class inequality based problems are their main concerns. And they vote for racist lunatics who are openly against helping those in need.
Marvelous.
moderngamer327@reddit
Capitalism is opposed to state intervention and therefore fascism
ThatHeckinFox@reddit
Capitalism is opposed to state intervention against its interests.
State intervention negatively targeting unions, welfare programs, and ones that generate tension that diverts attention from their wrong doings, is right up the alley of corporations.
moderngamer327@reddit
You are conflating capitalism with capitalists
ThatHeckinFox@reddit
There are no honest capitalists.
One is either a capitalist because they profit from it, or because they are stupid.
moderngamer327@reddit
So most people in western countries are not honest? A capitalist is anyone who owns capital which includes anyone invested in any stocks
Just because labor creates the initial value does not mean all the value is created from the initial labor. Profit is significantly more complex than that
ThatHeckinFox@reddit
That's a capital owner. A capitalist is someone who subscribes to the ideology of money driven social darwinism.
MongolPerson@reddit
When the political-business class becomes entrenched you get a uniparty system, where they play all the sides and society stagnates to their benefit.
SenoraRaton@reddit
Be careful, you'll get branded a heretic if you say that both sides are the same.
Prosthemadera@reddit
What "both sides"? Spain has more than two parties, this isn't the US with its two party system but even there political groups are more complex than that.
SeaworthinessOk4169@reddit
The two biggest parties (PP and PSOE) have been playing ping-pong since Franco died (not counting the first elections), PP is just plain old right and PSOE claims being leftist but is center/left-center, PSOE is just slightly better than pp but both are corrupt corporativist scum
ThatHeckinFox@reddit
Products of the same system is more correct.
The democrats want to placate people in to tolerating corporate power with smiles and empty promises, and throwing a bone every now and then.
Republicunts want to do it through open represeion and agressivity from the braindead masses they control.
At the end of the day, they both are just agents of corporate rule. But the democrats at least put on a condom before they fuck you.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
You're not allowed to criticize both parties on Reddit. Someone will but in bitching about how both sides aren't the same blah blah
fl4tsc4n@reddit
Feel like I've seen this before...
Turge_Deflunga@reddit
Well, there's a global fascist effort to manipulate all media, so not surprising. We are well and truly fucked. TikTok is being transformed into a Trump propaganda network, so it's only going to get worse.
Stupidity breeds popularity
YourFuture2000@reddit
There is also the fact that in a lot of countries centrist governments and parties are claiming of being left of are accused of being left by conservatives and it seems far too much people don't question it. So as alternative from the "left", which is actually from the lack of actually left option, people move to the right.
Turge_Deflunga@reddit
Yeah this drives me insane where I live, when Conservatives act like our government is left-wing, but by any analytical standpoint is centrist at the furthest left.
Glum_Sentence972@reddit
Your argument only makes sense if you remove progressives and liberals from the Left. Which nobody outside Socialists and Marxists would do to begin with.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
I don't understand why Europeans leftists keep refusing on implanting strict immigration system like Denmark.
chorizard9@reddit
Immigrants (like me) are the scapegoats everywhere. Sometimes I wish we'd disappear for a week so the natives of their countries would realize we're not the cause of all their problems.
heartlessloft@reddit
If all immigrants went on strike they would quickly realize that not many of them are willing to do the dirty jobs they claim immigrants are "stealing" from them.
They hypocrisy and need for a scapegoat is sky-high within the anti-immigrant speech. They are not taking jobs away, they are willing to be underpaid to survive and the ultra-wealthy are taking advantage.
Silver_Switch_3109@reddit
When the ICE started mass deportations in the US, these jobs were filled very quickly by US citizens.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Source?
Glum_Sentence972@reddit
Idk if what he claimed was true, but it is always hilarious watching people act like Americans, people that work harder than most, are suddenly unable to do manual labor because they are lazy.
One day they are exploited servants to the rich, another day they are pompous 1st class people that can't even farm. It is almost like the Left picks and chooses whenever it is convenient for their politics.
Rivarr@reddit
-
-
Have you tried playing devil's advocate with that. What do you think happens when a bunch of people accept being underpaid for bad jobs?
If I undercut every grocery store in town and then went on strike, the town falling apart wouldn't be proof of how underappreciated and brilliant I am.
Diaperedsnowy@reddit
I'm willing to try it
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Ew
Chac-McAjaw@reddit
Because the ‘dangers’ of immigration are massively overblown, the benefits are enormous, and enacting anti-immigrant legislation would be discriminatory, stupid, & immoral.
JonC534@reddit
They aren’t overblown. Swedes would be able to tell you that. They’re only overblown to those that don’t have to deal with the immediate consequences and only care about economic growth
Chac-McAjaw@reddit
Yes.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
The left will win the next Swedish election
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
Only because the Swedish Social democrats have adopted the Danish immigration model.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Nope, they will have to work with the more left wing parties.
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
Or then can make a center coalition like the danish social democrats have done, you know.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
They’re not gonna do that, lol.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
The left is polling well in Sweden
thrag_of_thragomiser@reddit
The dangers are very real. Sweden went from a peaceful country to constant gang wars.
zanotam@reddit
lol. lmao even.
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
There is nothing funny about Sweden being no. 1 in gun murders per capita in europe
Saxit@reddit
As a reference, this is 45 firearm homicides out of 92 total, in 2024. Population 10.5 mil people, so about 0.87 homicides per 100k (any method).
What's the figures for Denmark?
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
0,12
Sweden has double as many firearm homicides as Denmark and Norway together. Despite having roughly the same population size.
Graph showing the growing amount of firearm homicides in Sweden
Saxit@reddit
What's the total rate, any method?
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
I have no idea what that means, but i divided 7 with 6 million times 100.000.
Saxit@reddit
How many homicides did you have in total, any method? Cause I'm pretty sure it was not only 7.
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
Its in the graph i linked you...
Saxit@reddit
I asked for 2024... :P
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
Go look it up yourself
fallinloveagainand@reddit
You’re not Swedish, stop acting like you live there lol.
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
????
Tsofuable@reddit
Far right trolls mostly.
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
The immigrants are far right trolls, or what?
It's extemely easy to look up the fact that Sweden is leading in gun murders per capital in europe. 40 years ago it was one of the most harmonious countries in europe. Really makes you think
kimana1651@reddit
Oh we are now moving to the language that being anti-immigration is immoral? I believe in a year or so we will be talking about the human right of immigration. No wonder you can't sell anyone on this. If you are treating it like a joke no one is going to take you seriously.
busman25@reddit
I mean, it should be. We're all animals at the end of the day, and countries and borders are man-made. Why should a person not be allowed to roam the earth? Why shouldn't someone have the right to not be trapped in a place they were born in, completely out of their control?
kimana1651@reddit
The universe is finite and so are our resources. Civilization needs order and structure to function.
The person who is working their job needs to have a home to go back to, the person going on their anarchist walkabout can't break into their home and use it when they are busy at their job.
Every single anarchist society that has been tried has either been externally crushed or internally fell apart. Why should this philosophy succeed today?
busman25@reddit
When did I say I wanted anarchy? I said a global government. No need to fight over land, resources, and immigration. Everything would be shared. People would be free to travel the earth, move around. Human suffering would decline and civil human rights would grow. And there would be a government that regulates everything. Not some conplete hippie utopia. Again, I know this would never happen, or if it did, work, but the reasons are the same as I mentioned before. Human greed, ignorance, apathy, and hubris.
kimana1651@reddit
Right so the governments at the current level are non functional and corrupt, moving it to the global level would work so much better.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Yes.
lurker_archon@reddit
lmfao
fallinloveagainand@reddit
yes.
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
So you want to live under a government dominated by indians and chinese? The people who brought us hindu nationalism and chinese communism. No thanks my guy.
SpirosNG@reddit
Where are you from again?
kimana1651@reddit
SpirosNG@reddit
You were saying about immigration?
kimana1651@reddit
Oh are you saying that we were pro immigration 200 years ago we have to be pro immigration today? What about women's rights and universal suffrage? Should we keep those as they were 200 years ago as well? What a cherry picking shit take.
SpirosNG@reddit
You are in a country built on the free movement of people from all over the place. Now your ancestors may have been settlers or immigrants but they would both spit on your ideas of free movement.
kimana1651@reddit
The country is explicitly designed for free movement within the country. It's always had borders.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
And?
Dense_Tax5787@reddit
Add this to the endless list of “absurd takes that are the reason liberalism is dead or dying everywhere”
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Except it is not.
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
In my country, Denmark, 62% of the increase in home prices is because of immigration. There are similar studies all over the world. You might not consider high rent and unobtainably expensive homes to be a problem, but many people do.
Tsofuable@reddit
Indeed, and if you look at Japan (which has very strict immigration controls) the country is on a highway to implode due to its reverse population pyramid. And much of western Europe (including Denmark) trends the same way since educated couples have fewer children if given the choice. Sometimes you need a long-term strategy, and enjoying lower housing prices is just pissing yourself in bed - short term warmth...
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
How about we find a middle ground between the highest immigration in recorded history and population collapse? Why do you think those are the only two options?
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Japan doesn’t have strict immigration controls lol
agitatedprisoner@reddit
Only if you let more people in without building a corresponding number of new housing units. The problem is lots of places don't want to build enough housing because existing homeowners have an odious financial incentive to NIMBY proposed new housing because it creates housing shortage and inflates the value of their owned real estate.
JonC534@reddit
Right so you just have to slowly turn your country into a concrete jungle to accommodate them. Wow so genius.
agitatedprisoner@reddit
Concrete jungles are the fault of building to car dependence more than population growth. It's not as if people today typically have no choice but to live in the city. Lots of people prefer to live in the city. Even though city living tends to be more expensive and carry higher rents. If we really cared about preserving green spaces or the wider ecology we'd be leery to build more single family homes because if we'd house the population in single family homes that'd take up more space not less.
JonC534@reddit
Yes they do have to live somewhere but mass immigration isn’t an inevitability
That’s why Japan just sent a loud rejection of it and has a new PM now
agitatedprisoner@reddit
If I could live anywhere I'd consider Denmark. Denmark could do worse than letting in people like me. Moving anywhere and especially moving to another country is a big life change. People who'd take it upon themselves to go through with that are interesting people.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
The new Japanese pm isn’t against immigration
JonC534@reddit
She is
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Show me one article about her saying she wants to make it harder to immigrate. The legal process is very easy, and nobody is campaigning on changing that except for Sanseito, which is falling in the polls.
JonC534@reddit
The protest was quite clearly about immigration and that is why the former PM stepped down.
Cope and seethe.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
The new pm isn’t against immigration.
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
That’s true: if we built commensurate housing to accommodate the immigrants, this would be far less of an issue. Unfortunately, as we have seen all over the world, NIMBYs are an immutable factor. Ever-present. Like gravity. We can either pretend that’s not true, or accept reality and consider solutions for here in the real world.
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
I guess that's why Denmark has one of the best performing economies in Europe lol
CrowdGoesWildWoooo@reddit
This very much depends on the country, jfc everyone who discuss this always think it’s all the same everywhere.
The US has pretty strong economic that can easily absorb migrants, it’s overblown and a non-issue there, and the US has always been strict with its borders and visa. The whole immigration is much more in control.
Europe on the other hand over land almost don’t have any borders and they borders countries that are constantly in conflict. They do check like in trains or airport but if you walk practically nothing. These are the methods that many migrants from middle east uses.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
American states have open borders
exialis@reddit
47% of UK Somalis are economically inactive, 80% are in social housing and they have massive families. That is a dead weight dragging UK down, not a massive benefit.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Not in every country
BrodaReloaded@reddit
it depends where the immigration comes from, the asylum immigration has brought a lot of costs of all sorts with very few benefits
Pretty_Biscotti@reddit
I’m from Malta, the current government built an economy on importing cheap foreign labor that have no rights and than are ripped off at every corner and making sure they can’t leave their places of employment without fines or the threat of deportation.
This resulted in the “rich” people in expanding their businesses massively in service and building industries making an obscene amount of money while skirting tax and labor laws. The native population that is middle class is crippled and the lower income bracket is basically destroyed.
At this stage the government can’t afford to slow down as the housing bubble with pop and crater the economy leading to mass unemployment and a lot of people losing their apartments which can quickly turn violent.
The import of foreign cheap labor also shuts down any prospect of a wage increase and destroyed the bargaining power for most of the workers. Currently I have no idea where 20 year olds without college or university education go to work apart from government jobs.
Why do we allow this? We have a 2 party system and the American mentality of “party loyalty”. There is no opposition and the emerging third party is still to weak to be a contender because people would rather not vote than give them their vote.
At this point it’s only a matter of when the bubble pops. The rich will just leave the island and go be a cancer elsewhere while those who can’t afford to leave will stay here to pick up the pieces and in 20 years we will be back here having this argument.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Denmarks socdems will lose
nagarz@reddit
Spain had a fair amount of immigration since the early 2000s, and we've had pretty much even spread of rightwing, and center left control of the government, and neither of them did anything about it.
Biggest issues right now are housing and prices, and since the PSOE is the party that has been at the head of the government, young people just lean the opposite direction. Propaganda on social media kinda feeds that, but it's mostly a "things are bad, we hate current government for it", if the PP had the control of the government and things were as bad, young people would lean left, it's not that deep.
manimal28@reddit
Have you considered that's because its not actually a problem that needs something done about, and those now saying it is, are lying?
nagarz@reddit
Did you not read the start of my 2nd paragraph? lmao
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Did u read the article
SpaceyCoffee@reddit
Part of the fear is that far right parties often espouse anti-democracy views, and make it plain that they intend to dismantle the means of peacefully removing them from power if they are given it.
Sure the pendulum swings back and forth in democracies, for better or for worse. But the far right will simply grab and hold that pendulum if given the chance.
marcuis@reddit
While it is possible for that to happen if the far right ever reaches power (which they may but not as the main force) it's the actual government that's clearly trying to seize it by any means possible.
TheCursedMonk@reddit
Because they are not actually left. Importing people destroys workers' bargaining power, suppresses wages, and puts aditional strain on the goods and services they wish to buy/use. Politicians in charge have a financial interest to keep their friend's worker's wage low.
Higher population of workers lets them manipulate figures for the ecconomy of a country, and young males can work and pay into golden pensions for a long time before they are due a payout (the politician today will be long gone by then). No politician wants to be left holding the bag as the person that finally says we can't afford pensions.
From a more cynical point of view, letting in criminals and people with harmful beliefs then lets the government bring in security measures 'to help'. Which won't help, they just wanted to bring them in anyway.
Finally if you ride the wave correctly, you can get elected by saying you will sort it, then let more in and claim future elections by saying you are needed to fix the increasing number.
Oh and bonus note, the people in charge don't care if the public don't like immigrants, because they themselves don't have to live next to them, so it isn't an issue that impacts their own lives.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Most people in Spain don’t care about immigration
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Because it’s stupid and would only make the country worse off and hand victory to the far right in the long run.
Technical-Activity95@reddit
its not stupid. people including me are fed with all the problems caused by large amounts of humanitarian immigration, refugees etc. rise in social benefit costs, unemployment, crime, terrorism, housing costs and corruption.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Because those aren’t caused by migration. They either aren’t actual issues, caused by other things, or caused by how our migration system is set up and not migration itself.
Just look at the EU: that’s literally open borders but people have way less of an issue with that because the very nature of open borders means labor can flow freely and have more bargaining power against capital. Whereas limiting the flow of labor, eg through limited/undocumented immigration, gives capital the upper hand.
Technical-Activity95@reddit
that's incorrect on like all levels. it is indeed the very right that wants immigration. left used to oppose it on the account of protecting workers alas left is no longer tge party of working class. source: I live in europe
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Source? I have heard a lot of BS about this. “Every refugee gets a free car, house and living expenses!” In my country it’s utter rubbish driven by hatred of non-whites.
Fearless-Feature-830@reddit
I just wanna know where they’re getting these numbers from
Technical-Activity95@reddit
https://www.is.fi/taloussanomat/art-2000011483092.html
these statistics are gathered by government and are official. from the article: 53% of arabic origin receive social benefits.
u/spontaneousflame
Fearless-Feature-830@reddit
How is public education in your country?
Technical-Activity95@reddit
was ranked #1 in the world when I was in school, high school and university. how about you?
Fearless-Feature-830@reddit
Damn there’s malding racists in findland, too. That’s crazy.
Technical-Activity95@reddit
yea bro really racist for parents to try to get their children in school where they can study properly
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
That’s a different claim. Did you move the goalposts? You said 50% of social benefits go to immigrants/refugees, but now it’s 53% of Arabic descended Fins receive social benefits. Those claims bear no resemblance to each other…
Technical-Activity95@reddit
well they do and both are simultaneously true. peruse the facts I have laid before you and learn.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Nope claimed one thing and are now claiming another. Do you have proof for the first thing? Because the second thing is irrelevant, really. 53% of Arab descended fins receive social benefit may account for only a few hundred euros a month. 50% of Finland’s social security budget is €7 billion. Very different numbers.
Technical-Activity95@reddit
there is several statistics there if you want to refute you can try but its right there you idiot
LineOfInquiry@reddit
A). The only reason a Ukrainian plumber would be willing to work for half the pay is if they have the threat of state violence hanging over their head. If they don’t, then they can unionize and have protection to demand higher wages alongside the Finnish plumber.
B). Even if the Ukrainian plumber can do a better job for less pay so what? That’s good for society, the Finnish plumber doesn’t need to do plumbing anymore and can go do something else like making art idk. Plus consumers get better pipes and the Ukrainian worker gets a better paying job.
C). How can they be mooching off welfare and taking your jobs? It’s only one or the other. Besides, shouldn’t you be looking at objective data on this and not just assuming what outcome it has?
SloCalLocal@reddit
Wow. You live in Cloudcuckooland.
No, the Finnish plumber goes on welfare because he can't afford to feed his family because the Ukrainian put him out of business. That's what Western Europeans are afraid of. And they're right to be worried.
The entire point of importing labor is to depress wages. That's why the true right wing supports relatively relaxed immigration (vet them for crime, but otherwise let migrants in the country in large numbers). Immigration is great for business owners and lousy for low-skilled labor (because there's no inherent barrier to entry).
And many Europeans are also afraid of the migrant that's not going to take their job, just exist on the dole and commit crime. Whether or not that's a signficant issue in society is up for debate, but the public's worry about it is not. The great failure of the Left is failing to acknowledge it and try to do something about it before public opinion swung the way it has.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Then that’s the fault of the economic system you live under, not immigration. Efficiency gains should uplift the entire population, not a small elite. Are you going to blame factory workers for destroying feudalism and making serfs have to go work for a wage instead now too?
“True right wing” bro there’s 0 right wing parties that support open immigration are you crazy??? That’s a left wing internationalist position
The left’s greatest failure is that they don’t control the media and therefore can’t easily interrupt right wing narratives or lies with facts and their own counter narratives.
SloCalLocal@reddit
You have no idea what you're talking about. Elon Musk and the libertarian right have pushed for effectively unrestricted immigration for years. The more immigrants the better.
Back in the 90s, twenty years before you were born, people like Dianne Feinstein campaigned for stronger border fences and increased enforcement. She understood the impact to her constituency. Hell, Cesar Chavez spoke out against illegal immigration because they are the ultimate scabs, undercutting every union-represented laborer.
The left's greatest failure is having uninformed cheerleaders.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Elon Musk likes the current immigration system, and the libertarian right is a meme with no real power.
Yep, Feinstein is a liberal not a leftist, and not every leftist is pro-immigration either. I’m just saying that the people who hold that position are left wing.
Do you want to fix the current system? Then making immigration easier, unionization easier, building housing easier, and eliminating large wealth inequality and switching towards worker co-ops will do it.
Technical-Activity95@reddit
oh you're one of those no border kind of types, probably still in school with no work experience. what you don't realize is that the finnish workers with their unions earned their pay and hours and holidays with blood and tears. You know why the ukrainian plumber gets taken advantage of? because he is in a bad position. fucking hilarious to suggest finnish plumber should just accept unemployment and do art. fucking lol
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Uh dude we’re talking about how to improve society right now. Of course it’s gonna take blood sweat and tears and probably decades, but we need to have the correct idea of which direction to go in and how to fix things. I’m under no illusions this would happen overnight. But ending immigration would make society worse in the long and short run.
Technical-Activity95@reddit
thanks bro, these people must be in high school
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Companies sponsor skilled workers into western countries in order to depress wages and reduce the benefits of the EU’s open borders. The immigrants are treated as indentured servants and paid a fraction of market value. That’s got to change - it’s bad for the immigrants and bad for everyone other than the sponsoring countries.
The impacts are worse outside the EU, especially in the US.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
That’s a problem with the immigration system as I said above, not immigration. Open borders would literally fix that issue but you don’t see the right calling for that.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
The core of the problem is locking workers and companies. If you have a genuine skill gap that you can’t fill locally you can sponsor someone, but you shouldn’t be able to lock them to only work for your company in miserable conditions. That’s incentivising companies to game the system.
Companies should be able to sponsor someone for a set time, but that someone should be free to get another job at another company without losing their right to work in the country.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Exactly, a looser immigration system would actually fix these issues.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
It can still be very strict. In fact stricter would be better - you have to prove the people you are sponsoring have the skills and the skills are in short supply. But no more sponsoring unskilled labour and treating them like slaves.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
A stricter immigration system would only mean there’s more restrictions on immigrants in the country and more ways for employers to hold that over their head and force lower wages. Just look at undocumented immigration in the US: making laws even stricter doesn’t fix the problem, giving them documentation and government protection so they can pursue job opportunities and/or leave a job without the threat of violence would alleviate the issue.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
I guess I mean that the rules on employers/sponsors should be stricter. That probably won’t work, but it’d be nice to actually hold companies to account for once.
Fristi_bonen_yummy@reddit
And all of this is, ofcourse, exclusively caused by people with a different skin colour and has nothing to do with the parasites on top leeching off more and more money for themselves. It has nothing to do with more and more people living alone, requiring more homes. It has nothing to do with legislation often forbidding these migrants from working, causing them to be unemployed. Then there's the garbage we call 'social media' and its infinite amount issues.
I could go on and on. There's a myriad of reasons these issues exist, and it's not as simple as "I don't like these people with a different skin colour or ethnicity, so they are the root of all evil and the reason our society sucks now".
Obviously, migration *contributes* to many of these factors, but it definitely doesn't *cause* all of them.
Diaperedsnowy@reddit
Well if it obviously contributes to the problems they are having. And people are saying it is a large problem for them, it would be great if we could discuss it without people like you calling them racist as your automatic first response
hippydipster@reddit
The problem isn't the poor people who are desperately just trying to find a way to survive in the world. They have exactly the same rights as you do to find ways to survive.
The problems are generally caused by the top-down management over things that aren't adaptable enough to manage reality, or that intentionally manage it poorly. Controls that prevent housing being built. Lack of enforcement of employment rules (which lets undocumented immigrants work "under the table" or without adequate protections, and so they cost less to the employers and drive wages down as a result).
The wealth inequality thus preserved, supported, and increased, serves to drive things like crime and corruption, and then, to avoid scrutiny, it's just so easy to point people like you at the immigrants as the cause of the trouble, and humans being humans, this feeds into our inherent xenophobia and confirms our bias.
hyphen27@reddit
What European left-wing government?
diasextra@reddit
Well, Spain is thriving because immigration so...
AwTomorrow@reddit
Why did it seem impossible? The country spent far longer under fascist control than Nazi Germany and had no real national reckoning with that afterwards, so plenty of families still revere Franco.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
Because a few years ago studies showed that Spanish youth were very-left-wing.
ShapeShiftingCats@reddit
Might have been about Millennials then.
It's not shocking that Spanish Gen Z acts more in line with the global Gen Z population.
ToastedandTripping@reddit
Exactly, time will tell if gen Alpha is more left leaning; each reflecting their parents as we become more and more isolated with only the nuclear family for reference.
Mef989@reddit
I do wonder how much parent knowledge of right wing algorithms and how social media pushes alt-right views will affect this. Gen Z seems like they got caught in the perfect window where these algorithms were able to push extremist views before it became mainstream knowledge of what was happening, combined with covid isolating people and giving them more time online to become exposed.
As a millennial parent to a Gen Alpha kid, I am going to be extremely careful of what my son is able to view online and plan to restrict his access to social media. But that is future me's problem given that for the moment he's a toddler who watch's Muppet Babies when he gets screen time. I do have a super cool rainbow book on diversity we read though.
Glum_Sentence972@reddit
You are not teaching that kid to think critically, you are indoctrinating him to your way of thinking. In which case, when he finds issue of it, it will be all too easy for him to believe anything that goes against it.
BlinkDodge@reddit
I think the most important part of how left leaning parents raise their children is to do two things.
1: It is of utmost importance that you teach your kid how to think critically early. Don't just tell them things, tell them why. When they feel a certain way - angry, sad, scared - ask them why they feel that way. Even if it should seem obvious, make them interact with the machinations of their own reality - everything might not happen for a reason, but what does happen has a process. When they do something wrong, especially if they wrong someone - ask them how they think the other person might feel and if thats what they wanted.
2: Teach them by embodying your own lessons. If you want them to be empathetic, they need to see you being empathetic. They need to join you in being empathetic. If you want them to be hard working, show them how you work hard, allow them to join you in taking on challenges.
Im not a parent, Im not even particular sure I every will be one - but I wish people gave children the benefit of the doubt when it comes to them being able to understand the complexity of the world around them even at a young age. If you teach depth, you raise deep thinkers.
leto78@reddit
Unfortunately, a lot of people on the left are as dogmatic about their beliefs as the Christian right, and believe that indoctrination is the right way to impart values.
Without critical thinking, it is very easy for someone to switch beliefs, which is why you see a lot of people on the left suddenly abandoning their beliefs and going full right.
limevince@reddit
Its strange to me that given the obvious threat these algorithms pose, why legislators haven't done more to address the problem.
It's a bit ironic to me that the TikTok algorithm might actually serve democracy better while its controlled by China. The regime has made it clear that post-sale TikTok is going the way of X/twitter and truth social.
paroya@reddit
legislators haven't done anything about subscriptions either yet for the past 10 years now that its been a real problem and mostly every company has shifted into selling everything as a service even when it makes no sense for the sole reason that subscriptions bypass core consumer laws.
SenoraRaton@reddit
Your going to TRY. The reality is that the integration of technology into modern society makes this almost impossible as time goes on. You can't shelter your child from the world, instead you should educate them on how to be a decent human being.
Evroz621@reddit
Wise parenting ideas.
It’s kind of wild, as a ‘96 baby, to look back and see how much social media and the internet have changed over our lifetime. The way algorithms shape what we see can easily turn into echo chambers that mess with critical thinking and even chip away at our democracies. It’s unsettling to think how much power a few billionaires and foreign actors have over the digital spaces we all spend time in. The internet is great, it's social media plus smartphones that are the issue.
For TV, If & when I have kids, Its going to be looney tunes, Mighty Machines and whatever is released on Scholastic's new streaming app, the stuff I grew up with. And then classic original kids movies, not these live active remakes that are uninspiring and enshittified.
phedinhinleninpark@reddit
Miissss Rachel!
Mef989@reddit
She's great too!
Rocktopod@reddit
Thanks for reminding me about Muppet Babies! I'm gonna get some for my toddler to watch.
AndrewFrozzen@reddit
I doubt.
Gen Alpha already grew up in a period where this is on the rise more and more
I grew up with internet since I was 7. But my time period was just dumb memes. The worst was still considered a joke back and that's how dumb me took it as
Current me just realizes how cringe it was.
Gen Alpha doesn't grow with it being a joke. Rather, a reality.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Polls show otherwise
ManlyBearKing@reddit
Polls about 12 year olds?
EvenDoes@reddit
Without strict regulations of algorithmic social media that sadly wont happen, the billionaire class created the most powerful propaganda tool and gen z is showing if you grow up with it, there's little chance of breaking free
ToastedandTripping@reddit
We are already seeing pushback against social media with teens choosing to go low tech. And while yes it is a very powerful propaganda tool, the GenX parents have also helped sow these seeds...it's too easy to just blame social media
eldomtom2@reddit
Generations are bullshit, political views don't depend on which side of an imaginary line you were born on.
QuackingMonkey@reddit
Political views are influenced by things that happen around you, and some of those things happen to everyone at the same time, and sometimes people within a certain age range are more affected by that thing happening which frequently results in people born in similar years showing a certain pattern in their averages compared to people who were in a different age range when those things happened. To make this easier to communicate about, we use 'generations', often even naming them based on something that largely affected their patterns, knowing fully well that individuals within those generations don't necessarily match the pattern.
eldomtom2@reddit
This would be a convincing argument if generations were in any sense based on historical events and patterns.
QuackingMonkey@reddit
Yeah, we can't say that yet when the generation is being born. But shit happens often enough that we don't have a generation who gets away from everything, although that would probably be a whole thing by itself then. And when that happens, we already have a 'generation [letter]' to help us communicate what we mean, and common names often follow naturally. That sometimes includes common names for people who fall kinda in between, culturally speaking, like xennials. It's just a tool in our language.
eldomtom2@reddit
Part of my point is that the same events do not affect everyone in the world equally, nor do they fit into neat twenty-year boxes.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Global gen z is still left wing
Bobert789@reddit
Could easily be about Gen Z, same thing happened in the UK I believe
fallinloveagainand@reddit
They are left wing there
adoodle83@reddit
gen z being the TikTok generation? Yeah, no surprise the algorithm is driving more younger, uneducated, impressionable kids are somehow being brainwashed into being more right-wing
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Did you read the article
LXXXVI@reddit
I mean, it's literally made for that purpose. The Chinese internal counterpart of TikTok pushes stuff that improve "harmony" and are more about education and positive stuff in general.
thegodfather0504@reddit
I dont think chinese can be blamed for right wing shit on tiktok. Brainrot yes. But its the right wing itself that likes to brainwash young minds.
LXXXVI@reddit
They can't be blamed for the brainrot content itself. But they certainly can be blamed for the algorithm that specifically pushes brainrot in the west and good stuff within China, considering it's their app.
sakezaf123@reddit
They can't be blamed for right wing content existing, but they absolutely can for pushing it so hard. OP is right, Tiktok does tweak the algorithm to push certain types of content, they even admit to doing it in China. Why wouldn't they be doing it elsewhere? He'll, they are explicitly selling to a guy who famously does that.
Cool_Pride@reddit
Yeah, I'm sure with how you're talking about them in that way really helps change their views. I don't care about either side but I find it hilarious how many people like you on reddit refer to right wing people in the same narrow viewpoint.
adoodle83@reddit
Far better people have tried to change their viewpoints and even just point out basic facts to no avail.
Great projection though
ph0on@reddit
They hated him because he told the truth.
possibilistic@reddit
When they grow up hearing that "males are the problem" and enter a world where fewer women want to date average men, more women get into college than them, and they've done nothing wrong - they tend to get angry at the system.
They become deeply distrusting of institutions. Liberal media told them they were the problem. Why would they ever embrace liberal ideology? Or "tolerance" preached by an ideology that blamed them?
Progressives have some really good ideas. But they are also filled with some hateful voices that poisoned the well for future generations. DEI, male hate, and white hate have turned an entire generation off of messages of equality - because they felt singled out and oppressed themselves.
CavulusDeCavulei@reddit
Bro go touch grass, that's full propaganda you are saying. You are better than that. Women get literally tortured in normal medical procedures and the world still think it's fine
npassaro@reddit
What a total load of BS right here. The majority is included, most white males don’t see themselves under attack because they are not insecure little boys and know what’s what. These kids are raised by social media as their parents work until exhaustion and have little time for them. This social media has been weaponised by the far right blaming everything and everyone but the real culprits billionaires and financial elites…
possibilistic@reddit
There are just as many liberal podcasts as there are conservative ones, if not more. I really enjoy Ezra Klein, and there's also folks like John Oliver that appeal to younger viewers with humor. Big Media has always skewed more liberal.
Young impressionable men identify with the conservative podcasters because the conservative podcasters aren't demonizing them like the progressive ones. They're wooing them with language that tells them the rest of the world hates them. And it's a pretty easy story to tell. All they have to do is listen to social media to see people hating on them.
It's the message.
MistahFinch@reddit
The bar for straight men is literally on the floor my dude.
Shower, exercise, read, and talk to women like they're people and it's very easy to date.
How are you trying to blame women for this?
Like do you want to date women you're unattracted to?
Is it really that much of a wonder that women want men who can maintain the bare minimum of hygiene and not being mysogonistic?
possibilistic@reddit
Look at how vile and accusatory your response is.
My post got 300 views. You probably pissed off 100 people.
MistahFinch@reddit
Ah yes. So vile to checks notes suggest men struggling dating women shower and be nice to them?
Lol
possibilistic@reddit
I didn't say anything like that. You're projecting your own bias.
The problem is you're converting people who disagree with you to extremism.
MistahFinch@reddit
People who believe women should date men who can't be arsed to maintain basic hygiene and being nice to women are already extremists.
Like that's bare minimum human interaction
possibilistic@reddit
I said nothing about hygiene. I said the rhetoric is anti-man. That impacts young people on a psychological level.
Progressives have gone too deep into hate.
My wife was just telling me a moment ago about an anecdote where she was at a hipster coffee shop several years ago and the barista was judging her outfit and demeanor. She called my wife "cis shit" under her breath. My wife laughed because she's trans and passes incredibly well.
Progressives bully people they think are more privileged, but they don't realize they're hurting and turning off people that are in the same camp or that would be allies.
You're here right now being a bully.
manimal28@reddit
Strawman much?
Do you really believe this bullshit you just posted? You probably do. Males, are not the problem. Misogyny is the problem. If you can't separate being a misogynist from being male, you are probably a misogynist. Same with being being white, if you can't separate being white from criticisms of white supremacy you are probably a white supremacist.
I'm a white male and this idea that liberal media has somehow harmed me or stopped me from achieving everything I should have is laughable. As a white mail anyone blaming the liberal media just sounds like a pathetic person lamenting they weren't entitled to success simply for being white and male instead of having to earn it.
CrowdGoesWildWoooo@reddit
This asylum thing has been an issue for 10+ years, people already show some dissatisfaction about how it is handled. It just happen that Donald Trump who for whatever reason use immigration as talking point in his campaign. That is despite it is a non-issue in the US because they are :
mostly economic migrants, many are skilled in their relevant trades. The US has very strong economy that they can absorb them.
Immigrations has always been “controlled” in the US. Borders are controlled and visa applications are heavily monitored. Compared to the europe where borders are much much much more lax and in many places you can literally just walk to enter.
US doesn’t have as much social program. For people in need.
This is totally the opposite of the asylum seekers that enters europe, so circumstances are totally different.
It is always been a ticking time bomb, donald trump enables far right leaders because they see that it is worth being vocal about this.
Old_Wallaby_7461@reddit
This couldn't be more wrong. Illegal immigration has been a point of contention since the 1980s. It's mentioned in Red Dawn...
AthousandLittlePies@reddit
Point of contention is different than actually being a problem.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
Look, I am pro immigration, strongly so.
But you are completely wrong. The USA has a lower population and smaller economy than the EU and a VASTLY larger immigrant population AND a higher rate of immigration (both illegal and legal).
The EU are just whiny babies about it by comparison (which given our own poor behavior is saying something)/
Toke27@reddit
Technically true, but not quite the whole picture.
CFSohard@reddit
European here:
Nothing you said here is even close to correct.
QuackingMonkey@reddit
European here. Most of our migrants are economic migrants too. Our immigration has also always been controlled, I think even more tightly than in the US.
It's a non-issue here too, but getting milked by politicians and media as a big bad wolf who causes every issue alike. People love seemingly easy solutions..
denimonster@reddit
If football matches and their fans/ultras were any indication, Spain is very racist and right-wing.
mr_herz@reddit
It seems like all you have to do to change that is bring in more migrants and give it some time.
DavidAdamsAuthor@reddit
Oh boy.
"The Great Replacement isn't real but damn I wish it was."
:/
mr_herz@reddit
I sort of meant it both ways. In that if people were happy with immigration, just let more migrants in until that sentiment changes.
DavidAdamsAuthor@reddit
What if they're not?
horseaffles@reddit
That one sexy antisemetic spanish AOC clone really did a number on them
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
Who?
horseaffles@reddit
Isabel Peralta
tommyhawk979@reddit
I just heard about this lady for the first time and went on almightly Google to find out more. Holy sh*t. And she is only TWENTY-THREE.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
They still are.
Accurate_Ad_6551@reddit
Did something happen in the last few years that changed their material reality? 🤔
eternalmortal@reddit
Youth politics is almost always a reaction to their parents politics. Whatever the standard governmental position is on something the youth tend to take the opposite track. After a very long time of entrenched leftist politics in Spain (and much of Europe) which has resulted in widespread asylum fraud, crime, etc. it’s no wonder the kids are turning to the right. It’s happening in the UK, in France, even in the US.
Mal_Dun@reddit
The biggest achievement of the right is to blame the left for their own home grown problems and people actually believing it and this comment is proof of this ...
Most countries in Europe are managed by conservatives and Neo-liberals.
In my own country, the conservatives hold for over 20 years the ministries for immigration and finance, and still blame the social democrats for failed immigration and a bad budget. When they took power in the 2000s they blames the social democrats for letting everyone in, and when they took power they were happy to let in refugees because cheap labor.
But don't worry if you point out that's mostly conservatives that run the show, some idiot comes along and will tell you they are just part of the unity party, or that Merkel was a secret communist ... can't make that shit up.
Reigar@reddit
Interesting food for thought to be sure. I am curious as to why. Do children see the obvious bad that comes with any one direction and try to run from it, or is it movement to distinguish themselves completely from the parents (American English versus UK English language).
agitatedprisoner@reddit
Animal rights is the cause the left has needed to pick up and rally around since forever. When the call for solidarity isn't universalized the left is just one more special interest. Most anyone could/should stop buying animal ag products for the animals, the ecology, and their own health. The road to a better future is paved in peanut sauce, home fries, and cowboy caviar.
Reigar@reddit
As a vegetarian (though octolacto) I am familiar with both the benefits and the disadvantages of animal byproduct usage both in food and in textiles. However, this is a very loaded topic, and way outside of the question that I was more considering. My question was is the movement of a younger generation in the opposite direction caused by a need for proving distinction or defiance. With my own child, the best that I can do is to position them in a path where they get to make their own choice in the direction they go and know that I will support them either direction. While I will not shy away of my own convictions, I will not force my convictions on others either. Well, some have called me a fence sitter, I prefer to look at it as somebody that attempts to be reasonable with the fact that the world is vast and there are many different viewpoints. Not all of them are right obviously, but some viewpoints among the near infinite that must exist There are some that are just as valid as others.
agitatedprisoner@reddit
If animals don't matter why should humans you don't care about matter? CAFO farming follows from believing in getting ahead at the others' expense on a pretty existentialist level. How to begin to rationalize the arrangement to those animals? Swallow that poison pill and your politics becomes fundamentally selfish and your ethics is reduced to your estimation of how to be smart about it.
Zoetekauw@reddit
Lmao "even" in the US
eternalmortal@reddit
Well, I meant that the leftist policies of the US government are more tame than those in Europe, especially in terms of immigration, but they still elicited the same response from the youth vote pulling to the right. But also yeah lmao
dood9123@reddit
Leftist policies of tightening immigration standards for 10+ years under bipartisan rule
eternalmortal@reddit
tightening immigration policies over the last ten years where and compared to what? In the US at least under Biden there were millions more immigrants than previous presidents. In Germany, while the number has technically gone down from the 2015 high of asylum migrants (although not uniformly, 2022 had more migrants than 2015) there are still almost double the amount of migrants coming in to Germany today than there were in 2010. In Spain, the high water mark for immigration was only in 2022- and that's only because more recent years' data is still being finalized.
We are still in a period of immigration that is well above average, and the frankly insane policies of the late 2010's and early 2020's have done a lot to push the youth to the right on the issue.
SomeFreeTime@reddit
Biden's deportation level was higher than Trump's first term and currently is higher than Trump's second. Kamala ran a campaign further tightening border security. Fox News tried to push Trump's policies by claiming them as extensions of Obama's policies. The real reason for driving the youth to the right is misinformation about how "liberal" conservative countries are, and you are the prime example of how effective that is.
phaedrus910@reddit
End of the day quit fucking with their countries and they won't need to migrate. Bipartisan support on sanctioning Venezuela but God forbid one of them decides to move out of their now suffering economy.
LBChango@reddit
America has been going further right for decades. Reagan had more liberal policies than the current administration. And he gave all immigrants amnesty. The wealthy were allowed to accumulate wealth to the point they control politics, news, social media, and market forces. They pit the working class against the immigrants so they don’t look up at the boy that’s crushing them down.
Dr_Surgimus@reddit
Entrenched leftist politics in the UK and the US? What are you talking about?
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Y'know, the leftist politics of... Uh... Hmm... Blairite neoliberalism? Fourteen years of Tory rule? No, wait, what if we go back further?
Oh wait, that's Thatcher.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
🤣 Nicely done.
RA12220@reddit
I think it’s a global issue that has been largely ignored. The progressive left abandoned the working class and populism from the right has been a proven strategy politically worldwide. Not always in the interest of the populace and more likely as an exploitation of the oligarchs and billionaire classes.
DezurniLjomber@reddit
Have you been to Barcelona?
Lots of brown/black people who do scams, sell drugs and offer prostitutes.
It creates an unsafe ghetto environment, if I had a kid I’d never let it walk to school unsupervised there, hell even as a woman it can be sketchy as fear of potential rape is justified.
GlitterDoomsday@reddit
Sure... but how about the anti-climate change, anti-abortion or anti-trans rights part? Cause they aren't voting just for immigration policies.
MaurerSIG@reddit
Thing is, a lot of people tend to be single (or few) issue voters, so they'll just end up with whatever party is trying to tackle that issue, even if that party represents other values that they don't necessarily embody themselves.
That's why we're currently seeing a lot of Scandinavian left wing parties presenting anti-immigration stances, partly because they were losing tons of single-issue voters to right wing parties, and quite frankly because they're getting quite fed up with uncontrolled immigration themselves.
Shinnobiwan@reddit
It's a global trend. Neoliberalism has run its course, and fascism rears its ugly head during global realignment.
TheCollector39@reddit
"The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born; now is the time of monsters."
NorthernerWuwu@reddit
While very true, I think not actually the issue here.
Youth worldwide are being drawn into the far right social media sphere and Spain isn't immune would be my take. It is happening in Germany after all, who had the strongest anti-Nazi (or ANTIFA!) programs that worked quite well until recently.
The right wing is better at propaganda and are winning the minds of young people everywhere as a result. It sucks but it most certainly is not a problem unique nor even especially prevalent in Spain.
Socraman@reddit
The fact that Spain spent 40 years with a fascist dictatorship actually created a cultural and political whiplash when people decided to leave the dark times behind and embrace modernity wholesale. The real admirers and nostalgics of Franco were never more than 10% of the population up until very recently, and especially low among boomers.
Spain had a cultural revolution in the 80s with the ending of political and moral repression that cannot be overstated. That's why in 1980 divorce was still illegal and by 1990 Almodóvar was already a household name of cinema. And by 2004 gay marriage was passed.
In religious observance, on people born before 1950, Catholic observance is at 50%, but it drops to 15% on people born after 1960 (so people who were 20 in the 80s).
Of course it had some negative parts, like being one of the worst affected countries by the heroin epidemic and thus AIDS, but the change was real.
The far-right surge has nothing to do with it. It's based off social media brainrot, anti-immigrant sentiment, and worsening life conditions.
bell117@reddit
Yeah the lack of reckoning seems to be the kicker.
Oh sure, they had the Spanish Space Program but from what I've heard from people very concerned about the resurgence of Fascism in Spain is the fact that the current Spanish constitution is still actually the fascist Constitution but with some slight tweaks.
Heck, up until a few years ago Franco was still in a state maintained grave with honours, his exhumation was a "divisive" topic. Who tf opposes no longer using tax dollars to pay for your fascist dictator's grave???
Socraman@reddit
The Spanish Constitution is not AT ALL the fascist Constitution. It was written in 1978 and voted by a broad diversity of parties. Of the 7 writers of the draft of the Constitution there were: 3 centrists (liberal reformists), 1 conservative (ex-minister of Franco, still from the reformist wing), 1 socialist, 1 communist and 1 Catalan liberal nationalist. In the end the only ones who voted against it in the Parliamentary debate was the conservative party (AP, later became the current PP) and the extreme basque left (who basically wanted independence).
The Constitution, with its many flaws, instituted a wide array of iron-clad civil liberties and political plurality, as well as radically decentralizing the country. In fact, the reason why the conservatives asked for a NO vote was because it decentralized the country too much and because the King became just a figurehead with no real powers.
Spain had a cultural revolution in the 80s with the ending of political and moral repression that cannot be overstated. That's why in 1980 divorce was still illegal and by 1990 Almodóvar was already a household name of cinema. And by 2004 gay marriage was passed.
In religious observance, on people born before 1950, Catholic observance is at 50%, but it drops to 15% on people born after 1960 (so people who were 20 in the 80s).
Of course it had some negative parts, like being one of the worst affected countries by the heroin epidemic and thus AIDS, but the change was real.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
I mean that and the whole demonizing of masculinity and "the left" giving off nerdy theater kid vibes. Young people, especially men, probably aren't into an ideology that tells them they are terrible rapist and shit.
Flashjordan69@reddit
Is been fairly clear to see for quite a while now. Anyone hand wringing by this point just hasn’t been paying attention. We took our eye off of the ball and foolishly believed the hype that history had ended.
lacyboy247@reddit
I still think that without 9/11 the peaceful time of pax Americana should be more prosperous but it is what it is.
fl4tsc4n@reddit
The end of history doomed us all
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Gen Z is still left wing.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Read the article
Bahamutisa@reddit
The consequences of Francis Fukuyama have been devastating for humanity
vodkaandponies@reddit
He only wrote about what he observed.
Dirkdeking@reddit
Maybe because of that very experience itself. That they are weary of fascism because fascist rule still happened in living memory.
Winter-Issue-2851@reddit
cause Spain never invaded anyone or targeted a famous ethno-religious group. Nobody remembers the genocides Germany did in Africa
fre-ddo@reddit
Hilariously ignorant comment
_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_@reddit
Ahem
nudelsalat3000@reddit
Spain also lived even longer under foreign control until the reconquista.
A positive example doesn't falsify the generality, if the inverse is not also confirming it.
_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_@reddit
One was 50 years ago and the other was 550 years ago. Why are you pretending they are equally relevant to people today?
Raxater@reddit
Low education will do that to a nation's youth
marcuis@reddit
Delusional take. The turn to the far right comes mostly as a result from living the consequences of leftist policies.
Also, it's the left that uses and mentions Franco as a way keep their potential voters behind them.
DM_me_goth_tiddies@reddit
This has to be a joke, right?
What possible force could drive the cost of housing up, drive the wages down and make employment harder?
Supposing if a lot of people were to suddenly appear by magic, and they all needed housing and job, and were willing to work for less, could that in theory do it? Hmm, probably totally unrelated to migration.
desteufelsbeitrag@reddit
So they are willing to work for less, yet they are magically able to afford accomodation that is out of reach for residents who earn more money.
Yeah, right. Just stop that Schrödinger's immigrant bullshit for once. Just like they cannot "took ear jerbs" and be "lazy freeriding bastards" at the same time, they also cannot be responsible for the housing crisis by earning less than the locals and occupying all the homes.
This has to be a joke, right?
DM_me_goth_tiddies@reddit
Yes it’s called HMO. What we see happen is where typically you might see one person in a flat for say €1,000 a month you see five guys living there for €200 a month each. The conditions are far worse than the native Spanish person is used to do they reject it, but the conditions are more favourable for the economic migrants compared to even worse housing situations.
In this way we see how a city which might have a million housing units and million citizens go to 1.5 or even 2 million citizens without building anything.
The housing market gets worse, and as more people are willing to accept even worse conditions, the prices can even go up. Those five guys might pay €250 a month in a years time, meaning the flat is now €1,250 and even more expensive for the sole inhabitant it was intended for.
It’s not like some racist lie to say that landlords will profit maximise and fit as many tenants into an into as possible and that non of the renters really really benefit.
mkdabra@reddit
While all that is true, it's pretty low IQ to blame the immigrants for what the landlords do.
Sinking a bunch of taxes in ineffective gestapo-like forces to kick them out wouldn't fix much of anything. You are already used to paying outrageous sums and getting constant price hikes, so they'd continue doing it... after all, they do it 'cause they want (obligatory Onion headline: Landlord forced to raise rent due to thinking bigger number).
So we could either place the blame on immigrants (as fascist hatemongers and grifters do), or go after landlords and absentee owners, who are the real culprits. This is views as extreme or radical 'cause, instead of persecuting heaps of powerless innocent people, it would target a few powerful institutions and moneyed individuals, and sadly there's some people who deep down think that they'll be wealthy one day (and thus able to rake it in by making others miserable) and resent that this approach would hurt their imaginary profits.
DM_me_goth_tiddies@reddit
Migrants following incentives: you can’t blame them, they’re just trying to get a higher quality of life for them and their families.
Landlords filling incentives: absolute scum, you can blame them, they’re trying to get more money for themselves and their families!
Either blame the system or blame individuals.
Fristi_bonen_yummy@reddit
It's even funnier when you look at places that have relatively low migration (within Europe). Their housing prices have *also* risen enormously. Very strange, must be all the migrants in neighbouring countries buying up their houses!
DM_me_goth_tiddies@reddit
Which places are you thinking of?
LineOfInquiry@reddit
No migration, if that’s what you’re implying. Migrants create jobs by increasing the demand for goods and build more housing/goods too. They even increase wages for the above reasons and tilting power more towards workers via sheer numbers.
chambreezy@reddit
It's working great for us here in Canada!!!!!
/s for the droves of idiots on reddit nowadays that don't understand sarcasm
LineOfInquiry@reddit
The housing crisis in Canada is caused by you refusing to build dense livable housing not because of immigration. Build more houses my guy.
chambreezy@reddit
The same government that is bringing in unsustainable amounts of immigrants is also failing to build houses or pass legislation to make it easier to build houses....
Im not refusing to build. Other construction companies aren't refusing to build. But their hands are tied by the government that has been failing for over a decade...
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Yeah, basically everywhere in North America needs loser zoning laws to build more dense housing in cities, along with investing in social housing. But that means housing prices will go down and that’s bad for investors oh noooooooooooo 🙄
seiryuu-abi@reddit
That’s the provincial government’s responsibility lmfao but Canadians don’t want to put in the work so they just started blaming Trudeau for not making houses instead. My immigrant family is against the immigrants too and brought up these concerns in 2015. Now, however, they just side with them because of how many Canadians want a genocide on Indian-origin Canadians.
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
In my country, Denmark, 62% of the increase in home prices is because of immigration. There are similar studies all over the world. You might not consider high rent and unobtainably expensive homes to be a problem, but many people do.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
My guy it’s literally in the first paragraph c’mon
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
That would be a great way to mitigate the damage caused by immigration. Do you understand the discussion?
LineOfInquiry@reddit
No, it’s a great way to mitigate the downside of immigration: a policy with more benefits than negatives.
Do you understand the discussion?
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
You would have more credibility if you didn’t start off the discussion with a lie. Now I have a hard time believing anything you write, and I question whether you even care about the facts or if you’re driven primarily by ideology.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
When did I say there are no downsides? Every policy has costs and benefits, that’s how politics works. Your job is to mitigate the costs and expand the benefits. The only reason immigration has any negative effect on housing is because of our housing policies, not our immigration policies. Change the housing policies and that will be eliminated. It’s not difficult to see dude.
Perfect_Cost_8847@reddit
DM_me_goth_tiddies wrote: “What possible force could drive the cost of housing up…”
You wrote: “Not migration, if that’s what you’re implying.”
To address your now much more reasonable argument, this issue of being unable to build enough housing to satisfy high immigration affects almost every OECD country in the world. Meaning that for whatever reason (and I think there are many) we simply cannot build fast or high enough to satisfy this level of immigration. We must accept that reality, and adjust the things which are under our control. Or at minimum, cap immigration at whatever level we can build at. The houses should come first.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Migration doesn’t cause housing prices to go up, as stated above our housing policy does. If you want housing prices to go down, then change your housing policy not immigration policy: as we can see from every OECD country having housing prices go up even places losing population like the rust belt in the US.
If your shoe is untied and you trip over it and fall down what caused that? Gravity? The strength of your shoelaces? The chemistry of your brain making you uncoordinated? I’m sure you could claim all those things, but the obvious answer is that you didn’t tie your shoes. Because that’s the thing that’s both the easiest to fix and has no negative consequences in changing. The same is true here with immigration and housing policy.
saracenraider@reddit
This is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read and I’m generally pro-migration
They also need more housing too - or do you like your migrants on the streets? More consumption of goods increases inflation and a lot of these ‘goods’ (eg healthcare, roads, schools) only have a finite amount of supply and any increase requires an increase in government spending. Plus the majority of mass migration into western countries is low income, and so have limited spending power. Yes, some jobs may be created by mass migration but to spout this benefit without discussing the other side is highly disingenuous
While your first point is up for debate, this one isn’t. It’s utterly laughable. More workers means pre supply, which gives more power to employers. This is basic economics, open and shut. And as for increasing wages, it is well studied that mass migration suppresses wages as introduces a pool of people willing to work tougher conditions for lower wages. It shouldn’t even need to be studied - it is blindingly obvious that this is the case.
poptix@reddit
On top of that, look at remittance levels. 15% of El Salvador's GDP is from immigrants in the US sending money back home. 16% for Honduras. 9% Guatemala.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittances_from_the_United_States
fallinloveagainand@reddit
So?
poptix@reddit
So it extracts money from the local community and sends it abroad. Just like those big evil corporations I'm always hearing about. "Buy local", remember?
fallinloveagainand@reddit
I bet you buy stuff made in China.
poptix@reddit
Nobody cares about your fresh account with hidden comments, bot.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
redditors when they have no good comeback: ackshually your post history is sus 🤓🤓
poptix@reddit
Hello, bot. Remittance is economic migration, and it parallels corporate extraction. Both rely on local infrastructure and social safety nets to subsidize activity while exporting value elsewhere. Corporations do it through profits and tax avoidance; migrants do it by using the host country’s services while sending wages abroad. In both cases, the community shoulders the costs while much of the benefit leaves.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
i’d exchange 1 magat like yourself for 1000 immigrants.
poptix@reddit
Sounds like a bot. Sowing division using dehumanizing terms like "magat". Next?
fallinloveagainand@reddit
come up with a better argument lmao
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Yes, they also need housing too obviously… which they build. And the government needs more revenue… which they get through higher taxes. If population growth caused all these issues then England would’ve peaked in the 1200’s when it had like 40 people but that clearly isn’t the case. I know this might be a crazy concept but human beings generally create more than they consume, thanks to technology. Otherwise we wouldn’t be able to have professional athletes or artists or even factory workers, everyone would be a farmer or a house-builder.
More workers also means more demand for labor because more stuff needs to be made. Again, are workers better off now or in the 1800’s when the population was lower? The answer is obvious. If you want workers to be better off, then decrease regulations on immigration and let immigrants unionize and have legal protections.
saracenraider@reddit
There is no arguing with this level of delusion so I’ll leave you to it
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Bye loser
SloCalLocal@reddit
This is delusional claptrap that only works on paper.
Here in California we aren't building enough houses so all population increases impact the cost of housing. The inherent scarcity of real estate, the lack of water, Sacramento's obstinacy, and a bunch of other reasons mean that migrants aren't actually just building housing (like it's some kind of video game where you just point them in a direction and say "build") in sufficient numbers.
This is because their numbers are uncontrolled because they're entering illegally or staying past the end of their visa's allowed time. And this isn't unique to California.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
So California refuses to build more housing to accommodate their entire population, something they easily could do… and somehow that’s the fault of immigrants who can’t even vote? Like c’mon dude they’re so clearly being scapegoated here that even you should be able to see that. Build more social housing and cut zoning regulations stopping the creation of dense housing, that’s your issue.
SloCalLocal@reddit
California doesn't have water my guy, that is unless you stop pouring freshwater down the creeks to keep the fish alive. So what's it going to be, higher home prices or dead fish?
There's no simple way out of this that still allows effectively unrestricted immigration.
DM_me_goth_tiddies@reddit
Please tell me more about migrants building housing
LineOfInquiry@reddit
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy
poop-machines@reddit
This is far too oversimplified for the real world, and imo it's not fallacious.
Housing stock has increased about 20% in the last 40 years (the majority of that being an increase). Population has increased 40%. More than half of his was driven by immigration. These immigrants were typically not building new homes, but buying existing ones, or renting.
It's pretty obvious that it's not a fallacy in the UK.
What's driving this?
1) Thatcherite housing policies.
2) Lack of cheap, available plots of land.
3) Immigration. Immigration alone increases the population more than housing stock can accommodate.
This isn't to say that without immigration there would be more than enough housing, as they are a driving force for house prices which incentivises more builds. But the problem certainly wouldn't be as bad as it is today.
Countries with a stricter immigration policy do not suffer from this issue as much as countries with more open immigration.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Countries with stricter immigration policies absolutely can also suffer from high housing costs, just look at japan in the late 20th century for an example. Or China more recently.
Secondly, you’re blaming immigration for the problems caused by the first 2 issues. If you need more housing then build more housing, if you refuse to that’s on you my guy, not immigrants. The UK’s population increased “naturally” during the late 19th and early 20th century and faced the same issue, and you solved it not by cutting down births but by building dense livable housing because that’s the obvious solution here.
What you’re doing is like blaming people living in a ghetto for getting your house broken into and wanting to ship them somewhere else rather than fixing the f-ing poverty.
poop-machines@reddit
I never said countries with stricter immigration always have no housing problems. I said typically.
Uh no, I literally said what it's caused by. One of those things was Thatcherite policies for housing which reduced housing stock.
Don't strawman me.
The issue is dumb policies that reduced housing combined with massively increased immigration.
Why do you think politicians, even right wingers in the UK with the conservatives, push for massively increased immigration? Even after Brexit, immigration went up rapidly.
The answer is simple: housing costs. More rich immigrants and less housing means housing prices go up. Their voting core are homeowners, and increased house prices benefit them.
Immigrants can give a lot of the cost back, but it depends. Also the countries with immigrants that are worth it in an economic sense only get that benefit after many years. Basically they take up precious housing stock as soon as they're here but contributions take a long time to add up.
I understand your perspective and I agree it is true for some countries. But you can't just apply the rule for your country to all other systems that are wildly different with wildly different immigrants and cultures.
The data is clear: immigration drove housing prices up. There's a lot of research into this topic. Whether they are a net benefit is a different topic completely.
Sunburnt-Vampire@reddit
Go have a look at a nearby construction site. I'd bet good money you'll find migrants there.
Migrants are (almost completely) adult workers another country has already paid the childcare and education costs for. If a country were selfish they'd let migrants in and ban their own working-age citizens from leaving.
DM_me_goth_tiddies@reddit
Spain's inheritance system creates significant property bottlenecks: 17% of inheritances involve disputes, and 40% have been rejected since COVID due to debts and taxes.
Meanwhile, Spain added roughly 2 million net migrants over the past three years (2022-2024) but built only 300,000-350,000 new homes during that period - creating about 6-7 new residents for every new dwelling constructed. This massive supply-demand gap, combined with properties sitting vacant due to inheritance complications, has created an accumulated shortfall of around 900,000 homes.
Spain has a tonne of issues with housing and the idea that migrants are simply building the houses they need is wrong.
AFloppyZipper@reddit
You can only have a reasonable discussion about this topic if you frame it as needing to house a stranger yourself. It's not much different than having a baby.
Because few of the people who are pro-infinite-immigration-illegal-as-well will ever have to live with the consequences of their decisions. If they aren't already living in a walled off, gated community with security then that's the first thing they will do.
redditing_away@reddit
Utterly bizarre that the article (or rather opinion piece) beats around the bush that even the highest, second highest and fourth highest comments in the Guardians comment section (!) call out the bluff.
Fristi_bonen_yummy@reddit
Ah yes, everything to shift the blame away from all the corporations siphoning more and more money out of the system and towards themselves. Let the plebians fight it out with their little "left vs. right" nonsense while the billionaires are laughing all the way to the bank while figuring out how to pay people less and make them work more.
redditing_away@reddit
Two things can be true at the same time.
Fristi_bonen_yummy@reddit
Not when a whole identity is built on blaming migrations when those same parties peddling it are funded by the billionaires pulling the strings. All in the name of ever-growing profits.
As I said in another comment, there's no doubt that migration is *contributing* to, for example, a housing crisis, but it's not *causing* it. Our nans living to 90 instead of dying off at 75 is also contributing to this crisis. People having less relationships and living alone more often is also contributing, yet nobody blames either of these 2 factors.
Housing crises also exist in countries that have low migration, almost as if there are other, larger factors at play and people are just looking for an easy scapegoat.
redditing_away@reddit
I don't disagree with you, but even if it's not causing a housing crisis, it's a very noticeable and tangible contribution to it.
Unemployment and wage stagnation are also not necessarily caused by migration but undoubtedly very much exacerbated by it.
If you already have problems, why make them worse by letting in even more people competing for those already scarce resources? That's a very compelling question and one of the parties either on the left or the right have had a sufficient answer to it. Hence why we see the same sentiment rise in almost all of Europe.
Frankly, I also don't think we'd see much of a difference even if there would be no billionaires and we'd be living in utopia. People are tribal, no matter the economic circumstances. Even in the richest and happiest countries today you see those very opinions.
Fristi_bonen_yummy@reddit
Unemployment will likely only continue to get worse as companies look for more profit optimising (i.e. AI usage to replace jobs to save money), so having more people come in will accelerate that decline indeed, especially in the fields they'd most likely work in. I think the main issue is that it's far too complicated to give a simple answer, so giving people 1 'source' to be angry at (especially one that some people already dislike, regardless of reason) is a good strategy if your only interest is sowing division, hate and fear while growing your political party and power. It will not lead to the betterment of a country or continent, but that is sadly not the goal.
To your last point: I would agree and disagree at the same time. People are very tribal and always looking for a simple answer to a very complex problem/situation, so if they can't blame it on "them" or "others", they'll find a new scapegoat for whatever problem that utopian society is facing. I only brought up corporations/billionaires because they have a big, big hand in the housing crises (and other economic crises) we see in a lot of countries all across the planet, not just the 'western world'.
redditing_away@reddit
No disagreement here, I see it the same way.
However, we also know that the only really feasible solution will be to drastically restrict migration and return to a formula where not everyone who made it across a border gets to stay there. Taking on billionaires is an admirable and worthwhile goal, but as likely and arduous as "tackling the root causes of migration in order to stem the tide" when presented with pressing problems. Those things take years if not decades if they're ever achieved at all. None of which helps parties grappling with growing discontent right now.
So if the moderate parties want to preserve their standing and power, they'll have no other way than to finally tackle immigration. Otherwise the extremist parties will eventually come to power who certainly don't share the same sentiment regarding billionaires or social equality.
Icy_Row9472@reddit
>The arguments of ‘we need migrants due to population decline’ just don’t work when you factor in the utter job decimation that AI will bring
Ah yes, the AI bubble that brings next to no benefits to productivity, wastes money by the billions with no return and whose bubble is bound to burst by early 2027 at latest.
redditing_away@reddit
That may or may not be true for the current iteration of AI, but I don't think anyone doubts that it is going to severely disrupt many job roles in the coming years and decades.
Icy_Row9472@reddit
Define "anyone"
redditing_away@reddit
Anyone who pays a sliver of attention. It might not be the "ultra omega revolution" some may sell it as, but it is going to slowly but steadily spread. Don't expect Jarvis from Iron Man but a tool that steadily gets better the more it is used.
The Internet bubble burst initially as well, rendering the promised future moot. Yet it was also pretty clear that this was a temporary blib, not a fundamental one.
Icy_Row9472@reddit
"Anyone who pays a speck of attention" would notice that LLMs are failing to live up to any of its promises, OpenAI is needing more money than the investor class has to offer, and all the flaws with the tech cannot be overcome because they're built into the very mathematical model these things are built on top of.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
You are about to see mass layoffs start to happen in corporations. Every company has a group of executives playing with AI as their full time job and under increasing pressure to justify their existence. So AI will be used to drive massive layoffs and employee automation.
It’s going to be a huge disaster. AI isn’t ready. But these idiots only know one thing - cut costs by cutting jobs. And these idiots think they are smarter than the rest of us because they play with AI all day.
Icy_Row9472@reddit
Yes, and sooner or later they're going to have to hire everyone back again.
It's already happening, even, and let's not even get into the economic disaster that'll be the end of the bubble.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
They will hire everyone back, yes, but it may be very bad. It’s a fad. If companies all jump on board and start laying people off then by the time they realise it’s a disaster and hire them back they may have crashed the economy. Most people don’t have the luxury of being able to sit out 3 or 4 months without work, and if all companies are doing this then all companies won’t be hiring.
redditing_away@reddit
Yes, CURRENT models are not living up to the skyhigh promises initially made. That ain't new or surprising. The same way as it was with the Internet. Yet despite that AI adoption in both India and China for example is taking place far faster than in the West. In software engineering it already is in widespread usage despite its flaws.
OpenAi is one of dozens developing those models. Their financial woes aren't indicative of the whole industry. Remember DeepSeek from a few months ago, that almost achieved parity despite costing pennies on the dollar compared to Western models?
AI isn't perfect from the start, again, don't expect Jarvis anytime soon, but with each iteration it gets better. It might still take some time, but it will get there eventually.
Icy_Row9472@reddit
Ah yes the widespread usage in software engineering, making programmers waste more time fine-tuning prompt and fixing AI code and think they're being more productive.
Or maybe you mean "vibe-coding", that idea so great real programmers are making a living fixing the results? https://futurism.com/vibe-code-real-programmers-fix-software
redditing_away@reddit
Don't take my word for it, take theirs.
imakeyourjunkmail@reddit
Sooo.... Corporations have record breaking profit every year, and executives are paid hundreds of times more than the average worker, but you think it's the people being exploited and only making minimum wage ruining things? Do I have that right? Because it sounds dumb as hell.
DM_me_goth_tiddies@reddit
No you don’t have it right. That’s not what I said at all.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Sh. Then the root of the problem is brown people, right?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Do you know what drives the cost of housing up? Wealth inequality and tax policies that promote property investment. I’ve lived in two places now where owning and renting out housing is a great way to make money and avoid tax. So what do rich people do? Go on, guess…
EvergreenOaks@reddit
High unemployment is structural in Spain. EU membership has not helped either. Nothing to do with high migration at all.
Little_Oil9749@reddit
Username checks out
Ser_Twist@reddit
Hmm what could possibly be the bigger source of these issues, the thing that benefits from the cheap labor of migrants and sets the prices on the first place???
gentlemantroglodyte@reddit
Imagine living in a dictatorship until 1975 and living to see your grandkids cheer on the next one.
Seastep@reddit
The kids aren't all right.
PMmePowerRangerMemes@reddit
20-30% youth unemployment over the past decade. Terrible top-heavy economies create the conditions for fascism.
Diaperedsnowy@reddit
When so many are unemployed don't be surprised when they stop voting for you
oh_what_a_surprise@reddit
So that means they have to vote for fascists? There are no other choices to make?
Three00Jews@reddit
I mean, this is literally the appeal of fascism. Fascists promise they'll make things right, they co-opt left-wing populism to appeal to people's terrible material conditions. Their solutions do not actually alleviate these concerns, but that's immaterial to the goal of the fascist.
Status-quo neoliberals and austerity politics don't work, they see through those lies. I don't know Spanish politics so I don't know if there is a legitimate leftwing alternative, but in the case of places like the US or UK, when there isn't, people turn to fascism.
Ok-Construction-454@reddit
The beauty is when you tell left wing people this (with the intent of fighting facism) they will just laugh at you and call you a facist.
Three00Jews@reddit
What are you even talking about lmao.
Diaperedsnowy@reddit
If no other party is advocating to help them except that one then yes they will choose that party.
CavulusDeCavulei@reddit
Still stupid
Diaperedsnowy@reddit
Literally how the election went in Italy as well...
CavulusDeCavulei@reddit
True, I was in a class full of fascists, all of them bullies and idiots. It was hard
Ok-Construction-454@reddit
The way you write makes me think your the bully.
Fascism is just a response to bad government and the regular parties refusal to budge in a rapidly changing enviroment.
CavulusDeCavulei@reddit
Never bullied, on the opposite I stood up to protect my bullied classmates.
Fascism isn't just a response, it's a choice, a violent one
Digging_Graves@reddit
What makes them fascist? I don't know about the spanish parties but basicly fascist has become a catch phrase for "party I don't like"
Toke27@reddit
Fascist = Authoritarian far right, Ultra-nationalist, pro traditional values (the Church, "Christian" morals, the nuclear family, etc), strongly anti-lgbt, strongly anti-immigration, hate against some "other" (usually jews or muslims), willing to use violence/war to achieve goals.
Of course there's some variance, but those are some of the usual hallmarks.
jnkangel@reddit
Authoritarian parties (now it doesn’t matter if fascist or others) usually win the arguments because they tend to argue that there are simple solutions and that there is “the enemy”
This makes them appealing to people frustrated
zaneman05@reddit
They are altright though
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Not really
oh_what_a_surprise@reddit
Genius.
TheCrazedTank@reddit
No, but they do seem to be Alt Right
EvergreenOaks@reddit
They are the grandkids of the fascists most likely.
19MKUltra77@reddit
Sure, the % of fascists (sic) grandkids is expanding everyday, their families must be growing at a supernatural rate.
Maybe if the Left (and the grandkids of the defeated Stalinists, just to use you rhetoric) listened to the real issues of the people, instead of focusing in absurdities and sterile crusades just to try to hide the government's corruption and incompetence, the Far Right would be as anecdotical as it has been for the last 40 years.
Instead the Left chose to call "fascist" anyone who disagreed with them. And everyday there's more and more people who can't do more than disagree with the falacies of the Left, so calling everyone "fascist" isn't viewed as an insult anymore, more like a bad joke, a meme, or even a medal depending on who calls you that shit.
That's what the Left (and the Far Left) has become in Spain, and in many other parts of Europe: a meme. Good job!
PS: A million of downvotes won't change anything. Real life is not Reddit, get over it.
takecare60@reddit
Who would have thought that neoliberalism creating the perfect breeding ground for the far-right to thrive through austerity, mass immigration and general demoralization of the working class would result in... the far-right thriving?
Shocking stuff
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Read the article
takecare60@reddit
Are you implying that the problems mentioned aren't the fault of neoliberalism?
Btw, the journalist snakes are as per usual misleading, the data they're proving are from the general population, not young people, which of course is only briefly mentioned in the middle of the article
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Blaming immigrants is wrong. The article shows that immigration is a low concern among gen z
Spynner987@reddit
Trust me when I tell you that it is not.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Polls show otherwise.
SeaworthinessOk4169@reddit
I haven't read the article but immigration is a big deal in rightist Gen Z people, some months ago there was some kind of slight "pogrom" where lots of people went to a town called Torre Pacheco to beat up immigrants or something
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Read the article.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
It's not a conscious issue for them, but it has second order consequences that are impacting them.
PhoneRedit@reddit
Immigration has miniscule consequences on the vast majority of people. It's just blown up by the media because immigrants are generally poor and an easy target to blame for every problem.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Yeah say that to low skilled low income people who lost their jobs to low skill migrants. It used to be a liberal cause to reduce immigration, and considered it a Koche plan to be uncaring about immigration. Yet that's all changed now.
PhoneRedit@reddit
They didn't lose their jobs to low skilled migrants, they lost their jobs to greedy employers who found someone else they could exploit for even less money.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Okay, I don't see the distinction.
PhoneRedit@reddit
The blame should be on the employers, not the migrants, and the push for legislation should be to improve minimum working conditions and job security, and prosecute employers paying below these minimum standards, not for legislation to remove migrants so locals can be exploited again.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Sure, I agree... But we have to do something with the illegals in the meantime.
PhoneRedit@reddit
Why though? Like there really aren't that many illegal immigrants compared to what people think, and they cause very little impact to the lives of the vast majority of people. They're just trying to quietly live their own lives in peace. Like yeah, it's illegal, and yeah they probably shouldn't have been allowed to get to where they are, but isn't their life already hard enough? Why try to make it harder?
fallinloveagainand@reddit
more like it’s the billionaires
reddit_is_geh@reddit
There can be more than one issue at any given point.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Did ya read the article or
takecare60@reddit
Did you even read my post? No, it doesn't
Desembler@reddit
I mean actually yeah, it is pretty surprising that the general conclusion of middle and working class getting fucked over is to vote for the "fuck over the middle and working class even harder" party.
takecare60@reddit
They were already voting for the "fuck over the middle and working class" parties, in their desperation they're now voting for anything that seems anti-establishment, emphasis on seems.
giant_shitting_ass@reddit
People are willing to give up A LOT if they feel their basic needs aren't being met.
JoakoM@reddit
How the hell do you connect dictatorship = right wing? So there are no left wing dictatorships?
serioussham@reddit
Because both Franco and Vox are right-wing?
K31KT3@reddit
Is Vox advocating a dictatorship?
Rewdemon@reddit
They are not condemning it, however many chances they were given. I’d say it’s concerning.
Current_Recover8779@reddit
Yes, and not only Franco's but Pinochet too
Blarg_III@reddit
All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Far-right governments inevitably become dictatorships, and Spain was fairly recently a far-right dictatorship.
Vassago81@reddit
My grandmother was very happy under the dictatorship VS what happened to her family before when the commies were having their fun
Rewdemon@reddit
The commies? Lol
Your abuela knows jackshit about the Spanish Civil war and so do you
kaptivarts@reddit
Lmao right exactly what I was thinking. Literally took one generation to forget about fascism.
2stepsfromglory@reddit
You'd be surprised by the amount of people born during the 60s and 70s that praise the dictatorship or whitewash it just because they were children then and see their childhoods with rose-tinted eyes, repeating the same shitty propaganda that “with Franco everything was better”. Meanwhile, my grandpa was born a year before the Civil War started in a small town in the middle of nowhere, and every time someone asks him about his childhood, he explains how horrible it all was, telling us how all he experienced was misery in the form of poverty and diseases (especially scabies) spreading among the poor peasants and day labourers, how much the landowners exploited them with the support of the police, and how there was a constant state of paranoia about saying anything that could be interpreted as being against the regime.
There's a non-negligible number of teenagers among those that are now ending secondary education with a complete lack of critical thinking that is also extremely reactionary, misogynistic and xenophobic. All this is the result of teenagers constantly hearing people repeat the same dogmatic slogans that represent sociological Francoism, and given the fact that anyone in Spain born from the year 2008 onwards has only experienced a perpetual state of economic crisis, plus the fact that the ruling party pretends to be left-leaning (even if it's centre-left at best, but that's another story), makes them believe that a dictatorship that only raised its head economically in the wake of the European economic miracle and political opportunism during the Cold War is the solution, even if Franco's brilliant policies basically nuked the industry, caused famines, and he eventually needed to resort to tourism to bring money into the country, which basically is the reason why the Spanish economy is so reliant to it in the first place. But wait, there's more... and that's the fact that plenty of parents have no control nor interest in knowing what their sons do and which kind of content they watch in social media, and the problem is that Spain has a lot of reactionary and misogynistic Youtubers that started living on being gamers but eventually devolved into propaganda channels against the idea of the welfare state simply because they're grifters that don’t want to pay taxes, and since those channels are aimed at young boys… well, you can clearly see the end results.
mister_nimbus@reddit
takecare60@reddit
It's as if housing, social services and natural resources are already finite and mass immigration makes them scarce or something
mister_nimbus@reddit
It's almost like there are plenty of resources available to create housing and social services. As for natural resources, there are sustainable options in abundance.
takecare60@reddit
This would be true in reddit fantasy land where "there's plenty of space to make houses" and other ignorant ideas like that.
In the real world building mass housing is complicated and time consuming plus, if the neoliberals you defend wanted mass immigration they should have build the houses first, import the necessary resources and improve social services to accommodate for the added population
bullshitfreebrowsing@reddit
Immigrants arent the cause of the housing crisis, it's not a crisis of occupation, plenty of housing sits empty and unaffordable.
Poor working migrants sleep in closets and laundry rooms outside the city and bus in early morning, not in the many overpriced empty city condos made for professional working people.
There's suddenly no scarcity and plenty of resources available whenever wealthy business owners from Germany or the UK want to Summer in Spain, they're able to find large luxury villas and the labour to maintain them.
The problem here is the logic of how resources and labour are distributed.
takecare60@reddit
Again, you guys have no fucking idea how housing prices work. Everything is interconnected, immigrants using the cheapest houses forces the local lower class to rent/buy not the cheapest ones but the second cheapest and this goes on until it reaches the upper middle class and it DEFINITELY affects housing prices
It actually hilarious how a Canadian still pretends that housing prices aren't affected by immigrants after what that neoliberal piece of shit did to your country the last 5 years
bullshitfreebrowsing@reddit
Right, immigrants working their ass off in essential sectors, producing far more than they'll ever receive, living in closets are killing housing and the economy.
Their corporate bosses who profit from them and us. Who use profits to buy up more housing as an investment, that's not the problem.
Your solution is to eliminate people to maintain your position in the system, rather than change the system so production is geared towards needs rather than a snowballing private accumulation.
And honestly, I like immigrants more than people like you, so if we are trying your proposal, why shouldn't it be YOU that we get rid off?
genasugelan@reddit
My fucking God, being so disingenious. Most people just don't want massive levels of immigrants being let into their country, not jumping the gun into deporting immigrants. If you are really Canadian, just look up your local web site for flats and see the prices and look up the amount of immigrants Canada wants to import. Then remember the simple rule of supply and demand.
Why do you think they want to import that many immigrants? Out of their goodness of their heart? For profit and the economy, not for the well-being of the population. It always baffles me that somehow left-wingers want lots of immigrants, but also claim to give affordable housing and livable wages at the same time. It literally doesn't work and when the negative effects hit, everyone is surprised the the right/alt-right/far-right is on the rise in preferences.
bullshitfreebrowsing@reddit
We have the land, lumber and labour to house everyone here. Canada is modern industrial economy, we shouldn't have a worse housing situation than medieval or ancient desert societies. The scarcity is 100% artificial and intentional to protect capitalist profits.
genasugelan@reddit
That's...the point.
takecare60@reddit
They're not left-wingers, they're liberals often middle or upper-middle class, talking out of their asses from their high horse. The richer they are the more comfortably they speak on behalf of the working class, somehow
bullshitfreebrowsing@reddit
Yeah I'm not a leftist, I'm a Communist. Not a vague left-ish labour zionist like some of you here.
takecare60@reddit
If you were a communist you'd know what Marx has said about immigration and you'd recognize why it's happening now. You're just a modern fashionable communist infected by liberalism and its bullshit ideas
genasugelan@reddit
I am a liberal myself. I guess the word liberal lost all its meaning. Liberalism is primarily about equal human rights and freedoms, I don't think it necessarily needs to be about welcoming big immigration. Left-wing has immigration basically across its spectrum.
takecare60@reddit
I mean, it did lost all meaning, modern liberalism has been reduced to laundering neoliberalism's psychopathic policies into pretentious buzzwords and talking points that paint a completely different picture.
Mass immigration for example isn't about keeping the wages low, workers controlled and the population divided, it's about "empathy" for the "refugees", neoliberals pushing for the most egregious pro-corporate economic policies the last 20 years isn't ab- WAIT LOOK LOOK TRANS GENOCIDE, THEY'RE SLAUGHTERING TRANS PEOPLE. THESE EVIL CONSERVATIVES THAT IN NO WAY HAVE THE SAME ECONOMIC POLICIES AS US ARE GONNA PUT TRANS PEOPLE IN CAMPS OR SOMETHING!
bullshitfreebrowsing@reddit
In Canada we havr plenty of land, lumber and unemployed labour. We do have a shortage of nurses. It would make sense to import nurses we lack, and build abundant housing we have the resources for.
This doesn't happen because of capitalism, that's the issue.
mister_nimbus@reddit
Who said I liked the neoliberals 😂🤣😂
secretly_a_zombie@reddit
How are we going to afford any of that when we import millions of uneducated people, who don't speak the language and hate our culture?
Fearless-Feature-830@reddit
Highly doubt immigrants are coming in and snapping up houses
takecare60@reddit
Important information, so what you're telling me is either that all immigrants are homeless or that you don't understand how housing prices work
Fearless-Feature-830@reddit
Buying a house with what loan, loser?
takecare60@reddit
Hey genius, you do realize that higher demand on renting still greatly affects housing prices, right?
One-Coat-6677@reddit
Except the worst hit places are vacation areas like the costa del sol, where its not immigrants buying up the houses, its brits and germans buying summer homes and leaving them EMPTY 90% of the year like they are a miniature blackrock or something.
Rivarr@reddit
Landlords are being given incentives from the government to house migrants. Better rates, paid and guaranteed for 5 years iirc.
busman25@reddit
This is why we should have a global government without countries, but no one's ready for that conversation.
takecare60@reddit
The EU tried to unite a few countries and it became a neoliberal undemocratic nightmare that used economic tactics that the goddamn IMF considered extreme while at the same time turned the union from a social democratic paradise into a collapsing neolib hellhole
So yeah, excuse me if I have serious doubts about a global government
busman25@reddit
Don't get me wrong, I understand that it would likely never work. And it would never work the same reason no country or government ever works forever. Humans fucking suck and love fucking each other over.
takecare60@reddit
My point isn't that it would never work like most countries never work, it's that things could get much, MUCH worse than they are now
Juanmusse@reddit
why would the left do this?
mister_nimbus@reddit
I mean, to be fair, the "left" in the Western world is just the right in disguise.
moderngamer327@reddit
What do you define as left exactly?
secretly_a_zombie@reddit
Ah of course. "that wasn't real leftism"
Ok_Night_2929@reddit
They say if you go east enough you end up back in the west. Thats why I’m a flat earth truther
Idiot_of_Babel@reddit
There is no "right". Only up and down.
Diaperedsnowy@reddit
Ha.
Is that the new version of real communism has never been tried?
Once you get a real "left" government then the 30% unemployed will be fixed quickly, right?....
mister_nimbus@reddit
Don't worry bud, we'll be there to liberate you from socialism soon. You won't need all of those social services in Red, White, and Blue Land!
Diaperedsnowy@reddit
Not having to pay income tax because we would be a territory would be amazing.
I can't wait.
mister_nimbus@reddit
Don't worry, we'll make up for that with tarrifs
Diaperedsnowy@reddit
One Costco trip would save more then any tariffs that might be paid.
Groceries cost is 76% higher then the USA.
https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/united-states/greenland
goofeingaround@reddit
Why the fuck would they build a Costco in Greenland and what makes you think prices would be the same as mainland US if they did?
Diaperedsnowy@reddit
Because it would be a territory of the USA. Wal mart would build a spot too I bet.
Do you think nothing would happen if they acquired Greenland?
In a similar way to how prices are in Alaska, have you ever been there, I have. Prices are higher but nowhere near what they would be if it wasn't part of the USA.
And that same chart I used says it would be 50% less than Greenland.
takecare60@reddit
It's neoliberalism disguising itself as leftist empathy
AFloppyZipper@reddit
What makes resources scarce?
You forgot the first step
exialis@reddit
They have made resources scarce though. They have imported hundreds of thousands of immigrants without first having a national housebuilding program to house them, so now ordinary people are suffering and the lie that mass immigration generates so much prosperity that it compensates for that has been proven to be nonsense for quite some time now.
mister_nimbus@reddit
Sure, it's a lot harder to catch up when you're behind. Was that negligence or planned? That's the question.
marcuis@reddit
Right behind the header.
kingofwale@reddit
When left leaning government continues to stick their head in the sand when it comes to major issues…. Who can blame the citizens to turning to an alternative??
ponchietto@reddit
Because the alternatives are usually worse especially regarding the major issues?
Italy for example: right wing won running on a "stop immigration" platform. Did the solve the problem?
Did the arrival stopped? No, the number of arrival by sea increased in three years back to the pre-covid numbers. (https://www.statista.com/statistics/623514/migrant-arrivals-to-italy/?srsltid=AfmBOorzZPC4XvFiWls2jPVGiADgiXsIF6TrqEmD5n-C0hxfKIwghI_X)
Did at least sent back illegal immigrants? Nope, even less than before: (https://pagellapolitica.it/articoli/numeri-rimpatri-migranti-governo-meloni)
Since we cannot stop immigrants, nor we can send them away the brilliant strategy was to make much more difficult to obtain asilum or protection and in genera the path toward legal immigration (beginning in 2018 with Salvinni). The result?
This is the number of illegal immigrants in italy per year: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1084824/third-country-nationals-found-to-be-illegally-present-in-italy/
Illegal immigrants cannot work legally, they get no support, how are they supposed to eat? Either work illegally or resort to crime.
The fact that this brings even more votes to the right is totally baffling to me, it seems almost intentional to make the immigration problem worse!
secretly_a_zombie@reddit
They're not worse than the people who outright refuse to even admit a problem.
ponchietto@reddit
I am arguing they are worse, and by the way, nobody in italy refuse to admit there is a problem.
Just pick any party and look for their immigration proposals page (this is PD, the main opposition party: https://partitodemocratico.it/le-proposte-del-pd-sullimmigrazione/, google translate is your friend.)
Unfortunately few (PD is not, for the record) are proposing the only workable solution: integrate immigrants with concrete measures, when little can be done (short of killing people) as Italy to stop the flow, this kind of influence requires an European effort. And even fewer are recognizing that due to our totally failed demographic curve, we NEED immigrants and badly especially when those 50-60 years old retire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy).
1: if someone is here illegally and cannot 'get rid' of them let them find a job, a house, a life.
2: integration: we need to fund italian language, laws, costumes courses for everybody and get immigrants to follow them
3: fix the stupid bureaucratic laws around immigrations procedures (permits, work, etc.), for example:
3a: education: we have tons of immigrants with degrees in engeneering, medicine, etc that are wasted
picking tomatoes, create a path to get their studies recognized in some form.
3b: we have a crazy system of work permits that is basically a lottery and does not work
4: legality: we have a huge sector of illegal workers where laws
5: the illegals are fueling a huge sector of, guess what, illegal workers that everybody knows of and the state is not stopping. There are slums in the fields in Campania with thousands of illegal workers picking tomatoes, how this is tolerated?
There are hundres of factories in Prato run by chinese immigrants employing pakistani and other people without rights. Did this government (party of law and order) do anything?
The laws needs to be fixed and enforced.
This takes money and will piss off certain sectors that live of cheap illegal work.
CrowdGoesWildWoooo@reddit
It literally dropped to 60k by 2024, these are when many of the policies are in effect.
You are literally omitting this in your argument
ponchietto@reddit
"these are when many of the policies are in effect" this is a temporal statement, not a causal statement.
What were the policies enacted?
1) Make life hard for ONG. Irrelevant, they are involved in 10% of the boat immigrants, but the only effect is probably on the fraction that would have drowned otherwise.
2) Albania detainmente center: sitting unused.
3) Tunisia got some money and sent some people to die in the desert. This is the only thing that had an effect and this is not exacly a right wing prerogative, similar past arrangements with libia were held by Democratic party (centre left).
In any case this means literally paying someone to torture and kill migrants, not "turn them away".
The movement of migrants depends on many other factors than the last step. Siria deposing Assad has a large effect on migration for example.
CrowdGoesWildWoooo@reddit
She got elected on late 2022. So it is reasonable that there would be some gaps before things would roll out.
The problem with the immigration issue in the europe is the context that these people present themselves as asylum seekers, which means there is a strong humanitarian context on handling them.
Without sounding callous, but many of these people voluntarily go there and at the same time why does suddenly it becomes the country’s problem to deal with. Like what is the basis that they should accept them with open hands no question asked.
Unfortunately due to the previous point they are practically a hot potatoes, many countries don’t really has the economic capacity to absorb them. At the same time people do note there are some problems with integration which definitely doesn’t help.
nagarz@reddit
Immigrants are not the major issue, housing and prices of groceries are. Immigration is what right wing parties use to stir discontent with the populace.
HamunaHamunaHamuna@reddit
The trend to vote for parties that want to burn civilized society to the ground and install themselves as supremacist overlords "to combat the housing crisis and preserve our identity (by stop being the country they are)" and other inane points is god damn insane.
bluecheese2040@reddit
It's almost like the collective failure of the leftist driven progressive Liberal agenda across the western world is so obvious it can no longer be hidden.
Unfortunately it's the likes of the guardian that has...opened the door to the far right...by ignoring and attacking anyone with concerns about the mass migration, reducing services etc that no one in europe ever voted for.
giant_shitting_ass@reddit
Franco ruled the country until the 70s and there wasn't an "oh shit what did we do" moment like Germany had until after the war.
Also desperation breeds extremism. It absolutely sucks to be a young person in Spain and I'm not surprised that they would turn to "alternative" political systems when the status quo has done so little for them.
Folksvaletti@reddit
I wonder what's the common denominator in all of the right wing revivals around western countries. /s
lol_alex@reddit
All over Europe, the younger generation is getting fucked over. Good education, good job prospects? We were joking, fuck you. Affordable rent or buying a house? Go live in your parent‘s basement, and - fuck you. But we still need you to pay for the pensions of the ever increasing number of pensioners, because - fuck you. Oh and by the way, we ruined the planet‘s ecosystem and won‘t be around when it gets really bad, fuck you.
Does it surprise anyone that they will turn their backs on the established parties that have never done anything for the young generation except make empty promises?
What the far right parties are promising is of course unrealistic. Kick out all the immigrants? Man, these dudes are doing the jobs you don‘t want to do, and for money you wouldn‘t get out of bed for. Britain kicked out all the Polish guys after Brexit, and suddenly realized they had no construction workers and no lorry drivers. I’m sure the fruit and vegetable farmers in Spain love their African migrant workers, because who wants to pick tomatoes under a plastic cover in 40 degree heat?
But they‘ve never been in power, so if you really want to piss everyone off, you vote right.
pham_nuwen_@reddit
It's more than that. If you're unemployed you spend more time online. And you get to watch how the woke left routinely demonizes men. That combo is really effective to move people to the right.
bannedinlegacy@reddit
Yep, same thing in Latin America. I am from Argentina, in the last 30 years we had about 20 years of leftist governments. Each societal indicator was worse than in the 80s and 90s.
It is hard to want to vote a leftist party when they are either:
A) Corrupt
B) Incompetent
C) Incompetent and functional to the corrupt.
So when an independent party or a far right party comes promising a change from the status quo the people want to hear and are tired of the same empty promises from the establishment parties they vote for that party.
And everybody is surprised about that.
Duh, poverty is rising, life is getting way expensive and you have the politicians saying everything is fine and we should be keep doing what we are doing.
lol_alex@reddit
I‘m in Germany and the established center parties are not doing anything left or right. The divide runs old to young. They are simply handing out money to those who are already well off, and giving the middle finger to anyone starting out in life, burdening them with national debt while destroying their chance of a decent retirement. And now they‘re talking about mandatory military or civil service again, because „young people should serve society“. Dude, just go die already.
I‘m in my fifties, but the attitude of my parents and their generation (and politicians are way too old everywhere) pisses me off in a major way. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Women_Suffrage@reddit
Spanish here. The reasons behind are 2:
We've had already 7 consecutive years of continued left-wing government. The youth usually want to revolve agains the status quo, and so far the only status quo that the youngest have lived trough is a leftist government, so they revolve turning right.
As everywhere else, the cultural/social discussion on social media is hegemonic far-right wing. And young people only inform themselves through social media.
A_Tribe_Called_Slatt@reddit
I mean, if they really want to fuck up their own lives even further then be my guest. No sympathy from me when this backfires.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Read the article lol
Winter-Issue-2851@reddit
Its not hegemonic far-right wing, theres more ideologies on social media....people are resenting that Spain is getting mmm how to say it on mod friendly words? ....Spain is suffering a demographic transition and the youth aint happy with that.
fallinloveagainand@reddit
Read the article
joedude@reddit
That's what happens when the boomer generation decided it was all for themselves.
The only generation in human history that is robbing the grave AND the cradle and simultaneously hating their own children.
seiryuu-abi@reddit
Uh… does this comment make sense outside of America? Genuine question.
Isphus@reddit
Every nation that had a baby boom had the same issue.
The boomers are the largest generation ever. They can get anything they ever want by voting for it.
When they were young they voted for little regulation and safety nets, so they could build their careers and houses.
When they got their houses done they voted to keep property values (AKA rent) up.
When they got older they voted for big pensions.
As they near death, they vote for more and more debt they'll never have to pay.
And so on and so forth.
Its not that they're greedier than any other generation, its that by being the first to have no children they committed the perfect crime. No generation before or after can beat them in elections.
Manateekid@reddit
It doesn‘t make sense in America either. It‘s just an intellectually lazy trope.
Totoques22@reddit
It does in France
The retired in our country are ridiculously privileged and get payed more on average than actual workers
We are also the only country in the world wwhere the retired have more saving in their bank account than the actual workers
joedude@reddit
Not to mention they sold off their parents property and say "you'll have to take care of us when we spend all ouroney and need to be in a home".
What happened to this generation? Absolute shit birds.
joedude@reddit
Sadly I'm Canadian and it's the absolute worst here.
2stepsfromglory@reddit
Yep, you have the example of the UK, but it's also common across all western Europe and Spain is no exception to it.
lol_alex@reddit
It does. In Germany the pensioners are sitting in their paid off houses and see their pensions regularly go up with inflation, while the young generation cannot afford to buy and has to rent for more than a mortgage would cost, while seeing their own prospects wither and retirement a joke - while being told that they are just not working hard enough.
t-g-l-h-@reddit
these billionaires really are just going all in on brainwashing the younger generations into far right ideology huh, anything to not pay a living wage
Defendyouranswer@reddit
Why would you pay a living wage when immigrants will do it for 3/4 the cost?
chiree@reddit
I'm an immigrant in Spain. My hourly rate is too much for you.
Defendyouranswer@reddit
Not all immigrants are the same.
K31KT3@reddit
They’ll import labor to lower wages then call you racist for opposing them
Classic trick
Elegant-Data3162@reddit
That’s been happening in the United States for years now
Late-Tumbleweed9429@reddit
Being racist is what makes you racist…
Defendyouranswer@reddit
I mean this is actually whats going on.
marcuis@reddit
Just click the link and read behind the header...
secretly_a_zombie@reddit
They're letting go of the brainwashing the liberals have taught them.
agitatedprisoner@reddit
If it's to be humans over animals it makes sense to wonder why not cut some humans out to grow the pie. If we're to respect animals the silence from the left on CAFOs/factory farming is deafening.
Few-Past6073@reddit
Not surprised. Most countries are going to go right-wing because of the non-stop blunders and fuck ups from liberals across the world lmao. But its all stemming from mass forced immigration imo
fallinloveagainand@reddit
False.
TheRedFrog@reddit
What seems impossible is that modern governments couldn’t foresee their populaces losing faith in them after decades of prioritizing foreign interests, driving wages down with imported labor, and attempting to legislate speech that’s inconvenient to their bureaucracies.
Usr_name-checks-out@reddit
Gen Alpha /z is the first global generation that is culturally shaped by one digital platform. That platform has been completely gamed to sell a broken narrative with a fascist leaning solution particularly to males who aren’t well adapted to a loss of hegemonic power.
Youth in every country, not just Spain is going through this. And it is by design both from the structure of capitalism and active destabilization entities seeking a neutralization of liberal democracies obstacles to unfettered wealth accumulation.
Spain, is yet another domino to fall to the worst threat humanity has unleashed, social media. Forget AI, the democratization of stupidity to share equal footing with knowledge in a market for attention is the existential threat that will do ‘most’ of us in over the next 50 years.
Winter-Issue-2851@reddit
so you will scapegoat China and not the American social media?
Usr_name-checks-out@reddit
Project much? Go get your 50 cents, next time try and earn it.
sayleanenlarge@reddit
"Lest We Forget". Turns out that the more removed you are, the easier it is to forget. Oh well. They'll kill each other in a war and then try to pass on the knowledge about why that's a bad thing, but 4 generations in, they'll forget again.
pseudoliving@reddit
Perhaps. Firm believer that BS has a shelf life though, especially with some of the dumb shit coming from the right... Like..how long can they deny climate change, or cling to the Epstein files...
Need to keep them kids debating... and recognize an enemy of humanity when they see one.. No violence, just pariah status...
DragonDai@reddit
This is happening because governments are allowing far-right fascist talking heads to spread fascism via social media. This is THE reason.
Countries need to take bold and swift action to write and enforce laws banning the promotion of fascism, like Norway and Brazil have done.
There can be absolutely no tolerance of the intolerant and this is the proof.
rscarrab@reddit
Yes. Thank you. I wrote to the EU commission or something or other a few months ago via email. Beyond a boilerplate response the last two paragraphs were seemingly written by a human. Twitter, who the email was about, have certain obligations under the DSA since they're a 'large online platform'. They have not met some of these obligations like... surprise surprise... combating mis/disinformation and making their data available for independent analysis. No wonder it's Russias disinformation platform of choice.
I've heard that Twitter post 2016/17 became algorithm driven, ie you'll not only see what you've cheated on your own feed. This tracks with my ex flatmate for instance, who over the course of a decade went from having no interest in politics to still having no interest in politics but espouses the shit that he's been passively bombarded with while getting his football/crypto news. Right wing fucking brain rot, nestled comfortably in a cushion of baseless certainty.
It's very effective on the working class. All anyone needs to see is Operation Infektion, NYTimes opinion piece docu free on YouTube. And then Led By Donkeys breakdowns in 'Tesla = Trump', then 'Heil Tesla' to see what was described in that doc playing out in real time now.
rscarrab@reddit
Social media, like Twitter. Most egregious. But hey, do nothing about it and then scratch your head later like a fucking idiot.
"How did we get here?" 🥴
Primalturd@reddit
They’re all falling for the billionaires artificial trap. I didn’t realize people were so easily persuaded, until I saw the results and the reasoning behind Americas 2024 election.
Diaperedsnowy@reddit
Well when you are unemployed as a huge percentage of the young people are there you will get made at the current government
The Pendulum swings will always happen and the left side always seems surprised it isn't swinging further left always.
simonbleu@reddit
Politics are generationally like a drunk ambling to the sides, without realizing, without apologizing. It's a generational shift of contrasts on which the last one is the plaguing evil so they switch tracks. A crisis doesn't help either
denkamiko@reddit
this is so easy. the lenient left policies allowing mass migration rrom underdeveloped countries, resulting in a wave of crime, could only result in a new right leaning vision
lowrads@reddit
Vox is advocating putting tax surcharges on any pedazo de tierra owned by a person or firm outside of the EU, an unusually illiberal policy. Unsurprisingly, this is quite popular during a housing recession.
Most wonks within the existing government are opposed to relaxing obstructions to housing supply, because they expect that capital will flow into other buckets, such as commodities, and thus cause runaway inflation. This is because capitalism does not work.
GodZ_n_KingZ@reddit
He's going to blame Israel for this instead of migration, isn't he?
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
Israel supports immigration in Europe tho. They have been creating millions of refugees in Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Yemen and Iran by bombing their countries.
seiryuu-abi@reddit
They will vote for and do anything except for actually put in the work to have and raise kids to preserve that “Spanish” identity.
I used to think women aren’t stupid enough to vote for such strict abortion measures. Back when I was in America I’d heard of a particularly harrowing case but found sympathy difficult once I realized the woman’s views. I believe she’s changed now but what was so surprising when professionals wasted their time warning these people again and again?
rainbowcarpincho@reddit
“The only moral abortion is my abortion” is a common sentiment. The law is meant to punish the amoral hedonistic sluts, but of course we should make an exception for me.
Like all the WASPs that though prohibition would only be for those drunken immigrants who obviously need to be controlled.