AT&T Sent out letter to Landline users "Starting October 15 no new orders nor changes to existing service."
Posted by SilentSkyandclouds@reddit | PrepperIntel | View on Reddit | 117 comments
I kind of thought this was already the case that AT&T has not been allowing anyone to sign up to reliable, crystal clear, non dropping, on garbling, not needing battery back up phone service.
However, I just received this letter in the mail.
To all of those who KNOW that copper landlines are the most reliable phone service you can have in any disaster then if you want to get it, now is the time to get it before the door is closed forever or until the government does something about AT&T and Verizon's monopolies over our lines.
I'd like to post the letter but Reddit doesn't seem to be allowing images on this board.
For anyone who does not see why you need a copper landline then read below. There are MANY more arguments to why but these are just a snippet.
The end of copper telephone lines could spell trouble for the delivery of emergency services.
During a power outage, traditional landline service that runs over a copper network generally will continue to operate. However, phone service over a fiber network (from your cable company or Verizon FiOS) will not and requires battery to continue operating during an outage (see VoIP below).
Keep a traditional corded phone for outages. Without power, a cordless phone will not work.
MasterKris88@reddit
I’m 36 and for my first landline 2 years ago. I was a kid in the 90s and never liked cell phones. I was in 6th-8th grade when people were playing snake on Nokias. I preferred emails and instant messengers rather than text messaging.
I now use my landline more than anything, it’s the easiest way to get a hold of me. I’m autistic and put a phone in every room.
King_Kea@reddit
Prepping aside, I can see why they aren't supporting copper networks as much now what with how common VOIP, mobile, etc. systems are. It's just not financially that smart anymore is it?
Back to prepping, wouldn't a radio setup be smarter? Wouldn't rely on infrastructure to still be working and can be done fully off-grid.
satsugene@reddit
My copper line is a prep for me personally.
I have some health issues and don’t have very good cell service despite being in a fairly urban area. My block is legit noted on the older service maps. (I will say it has gotten better when the deployed 5G.)
Being able to pick it up and know I’m getting local 911 services, that they can hear me, and even if I collapse, they’ll know where my house is from the call origin.
Cell 911 (E911) can use available services to try to pinpoint your location, but depends on the local center capabilities, phone features, and network conditions.
It is useless for wide area disasters, but useful for individual emergencies.
I’m a licensed HAM for hobby and emergency purposes, but short of regional devastation, guaranteeing someone will hear me on VHF/UHF is a roll of the dice (and where I live the repeater locations cover a very wide area—which is great, but are in high risk fire zones (mountaintops) which can mean fire damage or public safety power shutoffs to them.
madadekinai@reddit
"It's just not financially that smart anymore is it?"
It's depends the area but 9/10 the cost of maintenance is the major problem and subcontracting, and they don't even own them. It's just no longer feasible in this current economy.
AlanTFields@reddit
You still need to establish remote infrastructure for your radio repeater network, if that's what you are talking about. Can be done relatively minimally but still required. Line of sight is different though, you know?
fragrant-final-973@reddit
This is the real answer.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Seriously very few people have ham radios and although the last widespread power outage I tuned into the radio networks with GMRS hand helds. I could hear people on the other side of town but they couldn't hear me.
fragrant-final-973@reddit
Just recently bought my first GMRS but haven’t played yet. Need to get the license.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
I need to get better radios. But it was cool hearing several people check in, mostly from the other side of town though, but it could be that the city there has a municipal repeater.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
No you can't see it because they are doing it for money. Cellular phones are a scam to charge us more. If you travel internationally you already know this. What was once a quick phone call from the airport becomes a wild goose chase to find a sim card and then you pay multiple times more for something you might only use a few times. And VOIP absolutely sucks. It garbles out. This is all designed so that they can spy on us and control us more.
asbestos355677@reddit
We don’t get any cell service at my house because the rich people in the next town over keep protesting against a new cell tower that won’t be anywhere near them. I have to drive 5 minutes up the street to get a single bar. Landline is literally the only way I can make calls.
F6Collections@reddit
Get a cellular repeater or booster
asbestos355677@reddit
We have one. I get a bar about once an hour for a few minutes, it’s not strong enough to make calls but I can send texts.
F6Collections@reddit
I’d go starlink and use WiFi calling in that case.
Or learn how to adjust your booster.
Sorry this is a thing for you bud :(
asbestos355677@reddit
Yeah I don’t know if that will even work on my phone honestly. I’m just using this one until it stops working and then I’m going to get the same Samsung as my partner (which I know has wifi calling). I make do though, landline helps a lot!
F6Collections@reddit
If you have an iPhone you can do WiFi calling.
Any modern phone should do it
jerzeett@reddit
This is really common in New Jersey there are pockets of dead coverage in otherwise populated areas. Drives me crazy.
asbestos355677@reddit
The part of town I’m in is more rural but we’re an hour away from NYC! A mountain blocks my signal and only really affects my neighborhood, so the town doesn’t really care.
dennisrfd@reddit
Use wifi calling, my maga friend
SKI326@reddit
I live in a red 💩 hole and I also have to drive up the hill to get a good signal even with WiFi calling the reception is spotty.
asbestos355677@reddit
Idk why this one dude is so pressed and saying I’m MAGA. I’m in a blue state and an hour away from NYC. A mountain blocks my signal, I can’t do anything about that. I’m on the border of another town that is mostly summer homes for rich people and farms. They’ve voted down a tower for over a decade now. I can’t even use my data at my house either if my internet goes out, but it works if I drive up the street.
I’m not good with this stuff but I just want cell service man. My town doesn’t really see it as an issue because it’s only my neighborhood affected, so less than 100 people in total.
asbestos355677@reddit
I’m as far from that shit as you can get.
_MrBalls_@reddit
His dilemma is why the government was planning rural fiber until it was cut by Trump.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Fiber is landline.
AnUnusuallyLargeApe@reddit
It's a line that goes through the land but when people refer to landlines they're referring to POTS copper lines, not fiber. Fiber "landlines" require battery backup and use voip now mostly, there is some old TDM>fiber switches but they're being replaced with pure voip ATAs or voip from the router. Fiber phone will only stay on in an outage if its got battery backup, the CO has generators and whatever hit the power didn't also hit the fiber.
_MrBalls_@reddit
I like to power my fiber modem and router with a solar panel and battery. I hope to upgrade to using a wind turbine soon.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Same. I live in a nearly dead zone. However, I hate cell phones with a passion. I believe they have contributed to destroying our relationships because it was so easy to answer real phones but there are too many distractions with smart phones.
FuzzzyRam@reddit
Burn their tower down (in minecraft)
TheGisbon@reddit
Wait so how am I supposed to exit the matrix?
funke75@reddit
Exactly
osoBailando@reddit
get HF, and get in the data over HF. copper or not all lines will be damaged/controlled "in the unlikely event" of a federal emergency...
dogs-are-perfect@reddit
My house does t even have a land line wire to it.
LankyGuitar6528@reddit
My house was built in 2018. I just noticed... no phone jacks. WTF! Not that I would have used one but that was pretty standard. When did that change?
SKI326@reddit
My house was built in 2012 and it has no phone jacks which shocked me.
junkrat7@reddit
Same they removed it and put fiber instead
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Fiber was set up to connect copper lines across continents. They were laying fiber before smart phones. And cellular services still work through cell towers connected via landlines.
junkrat7@reddit
Not my house
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Is your house new or are you deeply rural?
junkrat7@reddit
1989 yeah rural Florida but my electric company removed the att phone lines and put fiber for wifi
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
That's weird to me because they were installing fiber around my house circa 1999 to boost the clarity and transportability of the copper lines before cell phones were really a thing. It was to ensure we could call New Zealand or rural Ireland without lag.
dogs-are-perfect@reddit
1970s house.
dogs-are-perfect@reddit
Same except I live out there and they said they abandoned the copper 5 years ago and if I want fiber it will cost me $20k
Which I said no. Obvy
junkrat7@reddit
My local electric company is the provider of the Fiber
dogs-are-perfect@reddit
I’ve called and asked them and they do not. It’s charter and they are the only option
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
It probably does unless it was built within the last 10 years or so.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
It probably does unless it was built within the last 10 years or so.
HommeMusical@reddit
I appreciate the thought, but this is not really useful for prepping.
If they stop new installations today, five years from now they'll stop supporting landlines altogether.
Also, in an emergency, they'll prioritize keeping the 99% cell phone users working over the 1% landline users.
user_uno@reddit
Landlines have already stopped being supported in some areas. More to come. So that time is already here. That includes business customers of POTS and T1/T3 data circuits. Many places simply cannot be ordered any more at any cost and existing customers being told of being grandfathered or even shut down.
In emergencies, cell phone networks are already prioritized. I was in the telecom industry 30+ years. And now I volunteer with our local version part of FEMA. First responders rely on wireless phones. And the networks highly prioritize such traffic. Many hard lessons learned from 9/11, hurricanes, etc. But I know when we are making calls from our command van, our calls will go through. If not, we always have the specialized radios for our licensed spectrum.
PhiloLibrarian@reddit
We dropped our landline years ago, and I’ve been thinking about starting it up again, but it’s too expensive… $150 a month just to have a landline is nuts…
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
It is overpriced but we HAVE TO CALL THE FCC and FTC to complain and you better get it now before you lose the chance. If Biden was still president we'd still have Lena Khan in charge of the FTC and she was cracking down on these scumbag monopolies. She was one of the main reasons to vote for Biden/Harris. Now the American people will be basically fubared on every level.
user_uno@reddit
Most people in the US (let alone the world) do not have analog copper phone lines any more. So not everyone is going to be "fubared". And there are legitimate reliable replacements even for medical.
Voting Biden/Harris to get a FCC chairperson was one of the main reasons to vote for them? Okie dokie. BTW - they did nothing to slow the sunsetting of POTS analog copper service. It is not a political topic. Even the unions gave up trying to keep it just for a couple of remaining specialized jobs. It's done and the history books are closing on a very long tenure. Oh, a long standing service provided by those "scumbag" monopolies and unions for a few generations. It's time has come and it is going.
victor4700@reddit
If I have a landline and no one else does, isn’t it useless? Genuine question.
mlee0000@reddit
Good question. I would assume that if everyone else is using cellular, and the cell network was down then you cannot reach them.
I would imagine local 911 service would be required to have a landline. Who knows how many.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
When the cellular network is down no cell users cannot reach anyone, however, landline users can reach everyone with a landline and with a cell phone if the cell phone users are within range of a network that isn't downed. Cell phones are seriously insecure. I'm always shocked when people tell me they use them for banking.
user_uno@reddit
When networks are down whether a natural disaster, maintenance or upgrade gone bad or a cable cut, no one can reach anyone. It's that simple. So called "landlines" are converted to fiber along the way as are cell phone calls from the towers. There is little remaining magical about landlines and less so every week.
Analog lines are not secure either. Sorry. Actually they are more secure. They are encrypted. The first generation of cell phones back in the 80's were not. Anyone with a scanner that worked 800 MHz could listen in. Not the case anymore except for very high end, not commercially available hardware and software.
If you told us your phone number (please don't!!), we could access remotely or physically on site providing full transcripts, call details and every button pushed when responding to a prompt tree or automated system like for banking. Landline calls are not encrypted except for spy movies. Sorry.
And also not like in spy movies or police serial TV shows, it does not take minutes to "trace a call".
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
No of course not. You can call every phone with them. You can even call internationally. Notice with cell phones people don't carry on international relationships any longer unless they use e-mail, telegram facebook etc..
Strange-Ad2470@reddit
Anytime we lose power our landline is always working. Only reason why we still have it
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Keep in mind that when you get old and have a stroke, you won't be able to figure out how to use a mobile to phone for help. This happened to my dad. He suffered on the floor all night long. After visiting him in the hospital I went to his place and stuff was strewn about the floor. His two mobile phones were on, on the floor, smart phone and flip phone. He couldn't even figure out how to use the flip to call for emergency. When you have a stroke you PANIC and you get confused. He would have had no problem with a copper land line on speed dial.
user_uno@reddit
Brought up your dad again. I am curious. If stuck on the floor and unable to use a basic flip phone keypad, how would they reach a wall or desk phone to dial 911 on the keypad?
No malicious intent here. Just curious. Would seem the flip phone was at least within reach but yet still unable to dial 4 buttons. Not sure how a traditional old school phone would have been different if not more difficult.
We studied a lot of use cases while I was supporting hotels that were looking to remove all room phones. Major concern was 911 and potential liability. Not many uses for them otherwise anymore. Even then, national data shows cell phones are predominately used to call 911 while in a room. Hotels actually prefer 911 calls go through their PBX. It is tied in to their systems alerting staff. It may not just be an individual with a medical emergency but could be something impacting many others. And it alerts property staff to be on the lookout for first responders and help direct them to the exact location especially in large properties.
Phones are typically on a desk or nightstand. If disabled enough to be limited to the floor, not sure if that would have been a viable scenario for them to consider. We looked at panic buttons taking the same place as room phones. We made it work well in testing. But the concern was every little kid would just keep hitting the big red button.
Strange-Ad2470@reddit
Funny u mention this. Guy I talked to yesterday had a heart attack driving and was able to call 911 using the panic iPhone setting. And I was wondering why that was an important detail. But when you can’t move your muscles.
GreyNeighbor@reddit
You can stand your ground all you want, but they've made their decision, and if they're anything like my landline carrier, have fun.
Years of outages ("squirrels") that last weeks, and all kinds of shenanigans you wouldn't even believe and I don't care to relive again here.
Trust me, they break you down until you have no choice and they know they can get away with it no matter who is in charge, because we've had no oversight for decades.
i_did_nothing_@reddit
The plan is you be completely done with copper by 2029, so even if you manage to hang on for now, the end is near.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Unless we can get the FCC and FTC to stop them. That's not likely to happen under Republican leadership because they only ever favor corporations. I voted for Biden/Harris just for Lena Khan alone.
user_uno@reddit
The FCC and FTC let the approvals happen and stay in place while under Dem control as well. This has little to do with political parties. Even the unions have given up on retaining copper lines until the End of the Universe.
DukeOfGeek@reddit
I only ended my land line because of the relentless attack of spam sales calls. If that could be prevented I would turn it on in a heartbeat. Just 911 service would be worth it.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
That was AT&T's design. They "publish" our numbers so that we are paying for an advertising medium for others. They also allow unfettered access to our phones from India. If Trump hates other nationalities so much the one good thing he could at least do is block India.
user_uno@reddit
The "phone book" look up for telemarketing calls is not how it works any more.
Ever see War Games? The modem was dialing every number combination in a targeted NPA-NXX. Auto dialers do that now at scale. No one is typing numbers in from phone books. In addition to the the above tactic, marketers buy lists with names and phone numbers and any related data. It is amazing just how much is public record such as voter registration, property deeds, etc. On any social media that asks for your name and number when registering? Gold mine! Stores sell customer data to aggregators. Even if not on social media, companies have profiles on us. It is amazing what is available when setting up even a single ad. Cell phone companies collect data. ISPs collect data. Even cars collect data for manufacturers to use as well as sell. Online purchases are tracked. Same for any customer "loyalty" cards and programs. What you read on Reddit describes your interests and can be sold.
I spent two minutes on your profile here and came out with a laundry list of things you offered up voluntarily that would be marketable and/or very, very personal. Far more than any phone book listing.
Phone books are another dead end tool we all used to rely on. In telecom, those divisions selling ads next to all of the listings have all be spun off, consolidated or simply gone.
There is far more to it than just "block India". If I knew your phone number, I could make it look like it was you calling yourself from India. Plus there are many, many legitimate calls to and from India for both business and families. We cannot simply take a "Build The Wall" approach to blocking India. And just because it seems like a call is coming from India, do not always believe that.
Kitso_258@reddit
I work in the telecom industry. Copper lines may seem more resilient, but they're actually more suspectable to things like flood and power fluctuations. I could tell all the stories, but I don't want to break professional NDAs... lemme just say, I've made a lot of money trying to fix these little shits.
Few thoughts: 1. The copper infrastructure installed in the 70s and 80s when everyone got household phones is old. It's old and aging, and just plain expensive to maintain.
2. The infrastructure on the other end of said cable is also old. Parts aren't manufactured any more, it's impossible to find spare parts on eBay any more. Data rates are slow, and the amount of space/electricity that said equipment takes up in a central office is at a premium. https://www.reddit.com/r/cableporn/comments/196017n/telephone_exchange_main_distribution_frame_mdf/
3. Yes, typically, a phone line would stay powered during a power outage - but that's only for as long as the CO battery lasted, and that technology was also old.
4. I understand that monopolies is a concern, but whomever owned the copper in the dirt already had a monopoly and even LESS choices than cell providers.
This may sound counterintuitive, but cell service is one of the most efficient things to restore after a natural disaster, following the "last mile" principle. Think like bus routes - the bus runs down the main street, but you still gotta walk into your neighborhood. Same thing with comms lines. The "last mile" with a cell tower is wireless, meaning one cell tower can be put on a generator and keep a few thousand customers connected. In the case of a flood, copper lines into each neighborhood often need to be fixed/repaired.
Fiber takes LESS electricity as the transmission medium is light. There's no need for powered repeaters every so often. I forget what the attenuation standards are on a T1, but for longer runs (IE, the further away from the central office that you live), you need powered repeaters. With fiber, you generally only need power on either end.
If you're in a situation where you absolutely need constant or backup comms (medical situation, etc), work with local techs to see what they can do for you. Not the AT&T call center number, but if you can get a hold of one of the local folks, work with them to see what options you have.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Just to note, you do realize our electrical power lines were installed in the 1950s too and they still use 1950s technology + some newer technology like circuit breakers and arc fault circuit interrupters to maintain our power lines. But the wires, ceramic mountings and many other hardware are still similar to the 1950s.
Kitso_258@reddit
The technological changes in AC transmissions verses the technological changes in data transmissions is night and day. Electricity hasn't changed that much. How we use it has, but the core of how it's generated and transported hasn't evolved that much. Heck, the Hoover Damn's original generators are still installed and working.
Data transmission and usage is on a completely different level.
user_uno@reddit
Sorry but no. Power lines and transformers get replaced. They have measurable lifespans as well. Yes, the tech is similar. But there have been upgrades even though the science of AC transmission remains relatively unchanged. Upgrades such as better wire alloys, better insulation, better transformer designs, higher efficiency, better monitoring, etc.
You would be hard pressed to locate a AC network that has not been replaced due to regular maintenance since installation in the 1950's.
Look at water and gas lines. A pipe is a pipe! But no, they degrade, have to be replaced, get newer materials, etc. Along the way, we get better quality, longer lasting utilities and eliminate things like lead contamination, leakage, etc.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
You must be an AT&T rep.
1. That's not what actual linemen have told me. They said they got far fewer trouble calls about landlines than they do for VOIP.
"Fiber takes LESS electricity as the transmission medium is light."
Fiber is part of the landline network and they were originally laying fiber cross continents to improve the connections via landline before cell phones became a thing.
Kitso_258@reddit
I don't work for AT&T. In fact, I refuse to buy their stock or do any business with them other than what's required for my job.
I'm not gonna argue with you for the sake of arguing. VoIP has it's issues, too, and there's more potential pain-points on the back end. But overall, the older cabling and equipment are well beyond their expected lifespan and it doesn't make sense for any of the telecom companies to continue to use them.
Your commend about fiber makes me think you don't work in the industry.
user_uno@reddit
Most telecom sales reps don't even consider POTS as something they sell let alone know how to spell T1 for data business customers.
Two or so linemen saying something doesn't make the statements as a final authority on the topic. Since making it personal saying the above commenter "must be an AT&T rep", I will return the favor. Maybe those two younger guys in the industry were just nodding in agreement if ya kept yammering on how great and infallible copper was! Maybe they just wanted to get their job done and move on? And as I stated above, they certainly should have fewer trouble tickets today for POTS. The remaining installed base is a super minority compared to the rest of the digital world. Kind of like farriers report fewer horses throwing shoes compared to back in the day. Likely due to fewer horses being used for everyday use and more casual use cases? Nah...
Yes, copper does in fact degrade even with alloys. Insulation decays. And the physical connections corrode. In my copper days as a tech, we often closed tickets with resolution codes of "reseated card - came clear". Basically those copper connectors oxidized and the simple act of unplugging and plugging back in helped. Then you walked away very, very carefully - even looking at it might cause it to fail again! :)
Problems only started occurring at the dawn of VoIP. Hmm. Odd we had techs with lifetime careers before VoIP maintaining copper plant and responding to outages or customer complaints. We must have all been on drugs imagining things! Everything was trouble free 24x7x365!
ChilledRoland@reddit
Before Katrina, cell service at my house was marginal at best, so I had a landline.
In the immediate aftermath, all the landlines were down but cell service was abruptly much more reliable.
somethingwholesomer@reddit
Who will you call if you’re the only one with a working phone? Do you keep it strictly to call emergency services? I worry they won’t be available during a major emergency anyway
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Your worry is correct.
Experts Say Landlines Are Crucial In An Emergency And Are Opposing AT&T’s Request To Phase Them Out
user_uno@reddit
911 call centers (PSAPs) are not using POTS/analog services. They are digital and fiber based except in rare cases. They have generators for power backup if electric is knocked out. There are exceptions of course but typically very small areas with minimal budgets. I just came across a guy (I am a volunteer at our county level version of FEMA) who was working to help a small, rural county downstate in Illinois that didn't even have 911! People needed to call the regular police/fire/ambulance numbers.
Just because it was POTS/analog in that example a quarter of a century ago does not mean it always works 100%. Storms, cable cuts, failed upgrades, etc. can cause analog outages just as often as digital and fiber.
Who are the experts in that LAist linked article? A few callers in to a radio show? A politician who likely has no idea how phone networks work? Sorry to tell them, they are not experts. And a natural disaster such as an earthquake can devastate any utility. There are zero guarantees with copper. It is nothing magical.
This is a prepper forum. Never rely on a single option. Have a backup to everything. And a backup to the backup. We even did that back in Y2K at Ma Bell. I had backups for everything. To the point I told off a SVP who questioned all of our planning after I gave the presentation to a national internal audience. We had everything covered with multiple layers of redundancies including food and housing for employees after years of planning. He pompously asked something along the lines of, "What if..." I cut him off and said we had that covered too. Anything short of an unexpected meteor in an extinction event we had covered in multiple ways.
As a prepper at home (kind of kicked off by my Y2K work), we have multiple ways of communication. Cell phones (analog is no longer available here) with two providers, GMRS, CB and ham radio and finally satellite. We have bullhorns, whistles and flares if needed. Short of that aforementioned meteor strike or a zombie apocalypse, I think that is about all one can do.
BTW - Our county Emergency Management Agency I am at has zero POTS lines. Same for the 911 call center next to us in the same basement. Everything is SIP/VoIP. Even our Command Van (which is kind of a big RV chassis) uses cellular for our onboard PBX. We have satellite backup and of course many radios in our licensed spectrum. Connectivity even in a dire emergency is not an issue.
buckhunter76@reddit
I disagree with your first point. I work in telecom.
You only get clear sound and non garbling if the pair itself back to your phone company is in good shape. With the age of most copper plants that’s getting harder to keep.
Also YOU might not need a battery back up but the phone company has to maintain the batteries and power that make it so the phone can draw power from the line. Usually that’s generator power for anything extended. Eventually it will die.
That copper phone is good for short emergencies assuming your provider is up to snuff. There are better ways of communication.
The phone is also only as good as whoever you are calling. If you are calling a cell phone? Might be useless. Another landline, if they are down then that’s it.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
No VOIP garbles. And I disagree with your working in the telecom. I have talked to at least two linemen who have been in the industry for over a decade and they have told me they never ever got as many calls for landlines as they do for VOIP.
My copper line NEVER garbles unless I am talking to someone on a VOIP, but their voice garbles, not mine. Sometimes they will brrrp or gleeeep out too.
My mother was forced onto a VOIP line and once her line wouldn't work at all. I had to explain to her it is like a modem and she has to turn it off and on again like you would a computer.
It happens often. Here's the thing. How does she know when it goes down if she isn't checking it constantly?
She wouldn't know.
And when we get old and have a stroke, we'll not be able to call for help because emergency services are on speed dials with landlines. With cellular phones you have to fumble around with them to make a call at the best of times. When you have a stroke you PANIC and become confused. Calling out on a cell phone becomes impossible.
This happened to my dad and he had two mobile phones on him but he lay struggling on the floor. After the hospital I found the phones and laying on the floor with cushions from the couch and other things strewn about the room. They were on, but he wasn't able to phone out. He would not have had this problem if he had had a landline still.
user_uno@reddit
TLDR version:
Times have changed. Customers and providers are leaving old analog phone lines behind. For businesses that insist they have a single line analog connection and the area is still somewhat serviceable to deliver such, I've seen monthly prices of $80-90. For a single phone line. There is just not enough volume to support entire networks of copper for so few customers. POTS and copper based business circuits are in a death spiral across the country.
And now for the rest of the story...
I disagree with your two linemen. I was in telecom for 30+ years including maintenance. And the two posters above also disagree. So already starting to be outnumbered. Then there is the rest of the industry and associated unions. And government regulators around the world. Maybe those two linemen didn't get as many trouble tickets for POTS as for fiber or broadband because there simply are not the same number of analog lines out there anymore. Ten years of time in the field is relatively recent. Even back in the "good old days", POTS and analog or copper circuits were by no means a perfect utopia. Otherwise, I may not have had a job back then!
Perhaps your specific land line is fine. For now. Anything happens to it and good luck. Even Central Office equipment is difficult to source anymore. It would be similar trying to source a new VCR and Beta tapes. The global industry including unions have moved away from copper including for businesses from POTS to T1/T3 circuits which are also being sunset. It is too expensive to build and maintain and gets more so as the market continues to evaporate. It is limited in functionality. Even finding qualified techs is a challenge anymore. Most customers do not want it at any price. When there is no market, any product or service evaporates.
user_uno@reddit
Even hotels are looking to eliminate phones in the rooms. I was involved 10-15 years ago supporting that industry. All of the major chains wanted to eliminate phones. Several at that time even got Legal departments to sign off on doing so even with 911 concerns. It was just so expensive to maintain old analog phones and copper even inside a single property (even wired LAN connections are now rare since wifi is cheaper and offer faster upgrade paths). Phones in the rooms just do not make a property any money and offer little convenience. Long distance and local-long distance or even just local calls make them next to nothing since everyone uses a cell phone. Wake up calls? Rare since most people just set an alarm on their cell phone. Room service or making a reservation for the spa or restaurant in bigger properties? There is an app for that any more. On cell phones.
Fax machines are ancient tech. Even law firms and healthcare providers are finally letting go. AOL just this past week shut down it's dial up service. Why? Not enough customers using it to justifying the expense of maintaining all of those lines and modem banks (which actually were replaced but those replacements are pricey anymore too).
Don't like having a "modem" ATA box at the home due to quality? Guess what happens at the first node or CO possible? The provider converts it to digital and actually connects to the rest of the world using fiber and digital transmissions. Copper has been dead in that manner for many years. You might get service via a copper twisted pair with the "last mile". But the rest is all digital.
Those battery backups at a CO? Even before they started downsizing due to expense and space and maintenance, uptime was limited due to capacity. Diesel generators have to keep them charged with then in turn are limited by fuel capacity. During Y2K, I had diesel fuel trucks staged all over. Same when it comes to hurricanes. Those old copper plants suck down more power than the higher capacity, smaller form factor digital connections. Much more.
Yes, that means a home needs a battery backup. My local phone and cable providers provided that backup for their VoIP service (for the short time we still had a land line like that). Not all do but even a basic battery backup for a home PC is sufficient for a home ATA box and a cordless phone as well. If the power goes out at home, do people have batteries for flashlights? Same concept. I even have generators at home for the fridges due to having expensive prescriptions that must remain refrigerated.
Yes, there are some serious concerns for elderly or those home bound due to health issues. Similarly saw that with alarm systems and elevator phones. There are options out there finally even those manufacturers that were as slow as sloths doing anything about it. Alarm systems have battery backups (most usually did anyway) and now cellular connectivity. Elevator phones now can be swapped with VoIP phones with battery backup.
Home medical equipment (which should have battery backups anyway) also can now handle cellular or internet connections. Medical panic alert devices can now be connected over digital. Those with cell service bring another plus of being able to use even when not home. That might be better in a scenario like described for your dad. Trying to get to a home phone on a stand or desk could be a challenge too.
buckhunter76@reddit
So you are understandably being dragged a bit in the comments. Most of your reasonings are very boomer back in my day and you just hate cell phones.
The fact is your perceived reliability of the copper lines are due to a lot of work on the telecom side. They don’t just magically work.
And unfortunately older people just have to keep up with technology.
PE_Norris@reddit
Hard agree . Also worked in telecom for about a decade.
POTS lines will only be up for as long as those generators run, and I doubt their requirements are what they used to be.
You’re much better off longterm having fiber to the house. The GPON outdoor nodes still get backup power and the central offices still run on generators. You also get the benefit of never having to worry about lighting entering your home through the copper lines (which is way more common that you think)
grummanae@reddit
Exactly I work in in TPIA ISP Bell Canada is refusing to repair DSL copper and POTs ... Im sure theres something in place for 911 and medical infrastructure with that regards but for the most part any company or residence is being forced to Fiber
Even elevators now are being put on ATA with battery backups and a SIP trunk
This is not just a US specific move I would imagine its worldwide
Bottom line is from a telecom infrastructure point copper is more costly to maintain as it is suspect to environmental damage when the outer jackets eventually break and crack due to UV and seasonal temp changes mixed with other environmental factors. And is more difficult to troubleshoot as corrosion/ moisture creates different electrical values/ shorts that will affect signal quality and strength
From a cost perspective Fiber is more expensive per measure of distance and installers have to be slightly more skilled to install but it's made up for on the backside with upkeep and repair
Also most nodes are fiber backhaul to the CO anyways anymore
kormer@reddit
If you want emergency communications, then a better solution is CB radio for short range, and ham for long distance. Just be sure that the folks you plan on communicating with have theirs as well.
There are drawbacks to be sure, but only needing power on the sending and receiving end and not in any central office is going to be the biggest concern in an emergency situation.
NoTerm3078@reddit
Me too. I specifically tried to buy landline service about 5 years ago and no one would sell it. I already have the landlines in the house but no service because no service provider was available to me.
ClydePossumfoot@reddit
Crystal clear????? That has to be a tongue-in-cheek joke lol
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Haha what? No. What? What are you 15 and have never used a landline? The sound quality on them is SUPERIOR to anything cellular or VOIP. You can hear people breathe and the cat meow to go out the door across the room on the other end.
ClydePossumfoot@reddit
Grew up in the late 80s and 90s… sound quality in rural areas for POTS was a terrible, crackling mess.
user_uno@reddit
Sprint made a big deal in the 80's of sound quality so clear you could hear a pin drop. That was in comparison to long distance calls which commonly used microwave towers to span long distances and were subject to weather and other conditions.
Once cell phones became more prevalent, people didn't care as much about sound quality. And about the same time, people were jumping from carrier to carrier like crazy with stupid checks and gift certificates. Sign now by cashing this $100 check!!
Sound quality became a low priority. Commercials then evolved in to "can you hear me now?" Just being able to hear with adequate cell coverage was good enough.
I've seen some crappy POTS quality in my last years of telecom. Maintenance was a low priority and nowhere the same quality as in past generations.
alphatango308@reddit
At&t petitioned the fcc to stop servicing their copper lines a few years ago. The fcc granted their request because of the fall in pots lines over the last few years. Before that, at&t was required to rent trunk space and infrastructure in smaller companies that provided pots lines to avoid monopoly laws. They were also required to service phone lines and telephone infrastructure for 911 purposes. They're not required to do that anymore because of the rise of cell phones. At&t can't drop your service but At&t is pricing these services at crazy rates so people will voluntarily leave. They're also making it where you can't add it change your existing service drop. Basically at&t wants out of the copper era. They're making it too expensive to stay on a copper line so they don't have to keep servicing those lines.
user_uno@reddit
Even the unions (IBEW and CWA primarily) dropped supporting keeping POTS. They had been fighting to keep tech jobs. But even they saw the handwriting on the wall. Without that weak support, POTS was doomed. It is just not cost effective and it's difficult to find equipment and parts to maintain existing networks even from global suppliers. The world has moved on. POTS though had an incredibly long run!
Kara_WTQ@reddit
I work in this industry and there are very practical reasons why cooper can't be supported anymore.
I have never had a landline in my adult life.
Cooper is antiquated tech from the last century, this is the equivalent of someone saying that the end of the telegraph will cause problems for communication...
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
"I have never had a landline in my adult life."
That's craaazy. Then you really have little knowledge on the issue because you have zero experience.
I have only ever had landlines my whole life. I have used prepaid mobile phones for travel and what not. I also travel internationally and mobile phones have become a plague. I got my first smart phone in 2022 but I find it absolutely SUCKS as a phone and SUCKS as a computer. I don't know how people can stand them. They have wrecked our relationships because people don't answer them like they used to answer landlines (like all the time).
Roads are antiquated technology from Roman times, they are still among the most reliable ways of getting around just like copper is the most reliable way of phoning someone.
Kara_WTQ@reddit
I literally troubleshooting them for a living.
Solarinarium@reddit
To be fair, landline use is down so far that I feel like it's comparable to morse code wire messages. Eventually it's used so little that isnt worth the upkeep. I haven't had a landline since 2010, I haven't known anyone else thats had a landline in about as long, nor does anyone in my family.
Granted, that's because of a constant flood of spam calls, but still.
dementeddigital2@reddit
The copper phone boxes near me have flooded during hurricanes and have long been abandoned.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
For 4 decades we have experienced power outages 3 times a year. The copper phone line only went out once for physical reasons. Copper landlines even worked during the great power outage of 2003 when nothing else worked.
thedoofimbibes@reddit
The end of reliable emergency communications.
The DoD is having to run private cables into old abandoned bunkers (now recommissioned) to re-establish reliable comms that can withstand EMP and severe solar events.
Everyone jumped far too quickly into the convenience of wireless (myself included) without appreciating the decades of research and investment put into hardening the landline communications infrastructure against disasters natural and nuclear.
Now after a hurricane I’ll have signal on my cell phone but no actual ability to place calls or use data because the towers are disconnected because the infrastructure they use for backhaul isn’t hardened like copper was. Now doing that sort of preparation isn’t considered “cost effective” for the telcos. To the point they are considered unreliable partners for emergency communications planning at the local, state, and national levels.
-PM_ME_UR_SECRETS-@reddit
Damn talk about something I never considered before.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Surprised you never heard about it with the California wildfires.
California suffered widespread cellphone outages during fires. A big earthquake would be much worse.
People with landlines were ok.
Experts Say Landlines Are Crucial In An Emergency And Are Opposing AT&T’s Request To Phase Them Out
After AT&T outage, San Francisco told people to use landlines to call 911.
California, AT&T Square Off Over Landline Service Requirement
If AT&T doesn't want to maintain the copper landlines they should turn it over to the government (but only when the Republicans are gone).
-PM_ME_UR_SECRETS-@reddit
That news did not hit my algorithm
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
The telecoms control the "algorithms".
I learned about them from just perusing the news over the years, thought I had bookmarked them, had not, but they were mentally bookmarked. I wish I could find the articles about how cell phone users burnt to death because they couldn't call for help. I swear I bookmarked them.
bikumz@reddit
Do you have a source for the DoD thing?
morganpartee@reddit
I'm skeptical of that as well, bases have a ton of dark fiber strewn about. Fiber is not as new as folks think lol
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Fiber was designed to connect continents without delay. Back in the 70s/80s if you phoned New Zealand you had to wait a few seconds to hear replies. There was lag.
morganpartee@reddit
No doubt! Satellite backhaul I guess?
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
I seriously think they laid copper across the ocean floors (I remember the Gilligan's island episode where they dug up an errant cable and wanted to tap into it) but yeah it was probably satellite.
bikumz@reddit
I’m just skeptical that in general there’s all these bunkers that need cable run in case of EMPs.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
I never adopted wireless and cannot stand them to this day. Smart phones suck as phones and they suck as computers.
Comfortable_Clue1572@reddit
The ice company sent us a letter saying they were no longer delivering in my area. 100 years ago.
I suspect that the combination of a cellphone and 10W Ham Gear would yield far superior results. After many natural disasters, the landline infrastructure is trashed. Frequently is here. After Helene, the only folks who stayed in contact were hams with solar. Roads were gone, gas stations closed or gone, utilities gone…
Your landline only keeps you in coms when you’re close to it. Wireless can be with you all the time. Doubly so with a mobile ham rig.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Yeah cute. No Cellphones drop. No one has ham radios. The landline infrastructure is FINE, alive and well and I have used one all my life. Cell phones absolutely SUCK.
"After Helene, the only folks who stayed in contact were hams with solar."
And those with working landlines.
After the wildfires the only people who were able to call out for emergency services were people with landlines.
Experts Say Landlines Are Crucial In An Emergency And Are Opposing AT&T’s Request To Phase Them Out
Thoth-long-bill@reddit
I’d like a change to my service. I’d like my landline to have a dial tone. $100 a month and it’s out of service 50% of the time.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
Mine went out of service probably twice in the last 20 years and the second time is because AT&T cut it to take me off the grandfathered service so I was forced to pay more for less. They are scum. My power goes out probably 3 times a year. The first number I call when it does is the power company within seconds of the power company going out using my Great Old Copper Landline (GOCL).
SquirrelyMcNutz@reddit
The local copper line kept getting cut due to idiots digging without proper line locating and drunks running into the access points. Whenever the local teleco got around to fixing it, it was always worse than before. We finally dropped landline service because the line quality was absolute dogshit. Constantly see those little pedastals broken, knocked over, and otherwise out of service with no signs of them ever being fixed.
The house is still wired for it, but I doubt anyone will be using it.
SilentSkyandclouds@reddit (OP)
It's like a generator. You rarely think about needing it, until you NEED it.