The US Army apparently plans to replace the M4a1 with the Sig MCX Virtus by the end of 2023
Posted by DangerousClick2489@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 84 comments
Sig03@reddit
Hi guys. I work at SIG. This is not true.
The NGSW contract will supply the big army with a number of M7s and M250s, but it is currently not a wholesale replacement for the M4 and M16 platforms.
Maybe the army goes for a big replacement if the program is super successful, but only time will tell for that.
ObiD0gKen0bi@reddit
OP is Canadian so understandably he doesn't know jack shit about guns.
Tell him to keep his nose out of US politics unless he does his research into the subject first.
Agammamon@reddit
That's also a different rifle - the Virtus is a 5.56 piston-AR. The Spear is the semi-auto version of the XM-7.
MalodorousFiend@reddit
Source? Because that timeline sounds like total BS lol.
ObiD0gKen0bi@reddit
Plus it seems to me like mass-producing these things en masse and forcing our troops to transition from the M4 Carbine to a weapon that most of them aren't quite familiar with seems extremely expensive, so I think it's back to the drawing board for now.
May as well let the Special Forces guys stick to the SIG and let everyone else keep using the M4.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
nastygirl11b@reddit
Because it is BS lol
OP is an outright liar
eroktographer@reddit
The Hexmag gave it all away!
SolarMines@reddit
Not cheap-looking enough for mil-spec
Zealoussideal@reddit
This was announced last year,surely some will be here by then?
MalodorousFiend@reddit
AFAIK only the 6.8 NGSW Spear was announced last year as a limited replacement for line units. I’ve never heard anything about the Army going to the 5.56 Virtus, what I have heard is the non-combat units are supposed to keep their M4s for the foreseeable future.
Not that I’m a subject matter expert, but the Army going to the Virtus alongside the 6.8 Spear would be major news to me.
pacmanwa@reddit
If they do that its because the NATO partners are likely pissed off since all the NATO military countries are supposed to be using compatible ammo. As far as I know, no NATO country is using 6.8 aka 277 Fury. If the US militaries dump 5.56 in favor of the 277 Fury, every NATO country may have to do similar or adopt a 277 Fury rifle.
iblameautocorrect@reddit
No kidding. If they had said by the end of 2025 or 2026, I might have believed that. But in four to five months, from now??? Laughing Out Loud.
Shawn_1512@reddit
My source is that I made it the fuck up!
ThurmanMurman907@reddit
Lol I assumed it was a joke post - is this dude serious??
ImyourDingleberry999@reddit
Sig can't produce rifles that fast.
Not gonna happen.
Miskalsace@reddit
And they also apparently don't like countries using their shit in active war zones.
Dogsnapper99@reddit
Yes they do if it’s the US government and they’re making money I mean they don’t even care if they’re guns shoot innocent people holstered.
fuzzi-buzzi@reddit
I wonder what their rate of production is, they'd need something like 250k rifles to kit active army infantry.
I got curious and looked into factory tour, here is one from Guns com, they have a super duper advanced manufacturing facility, 200some robots at this facility. With this level of automation you can basically copy+paste production facilities and capacity. https://youtu.be/PwRsEyiLQA4
ImyourDingleberry999@reddit
It isn't making where the bottleneck exists, it always in QC.
fuzzi-buzzi@reddit
Right, assembly and quality also look to be where that sig factory employed the most workers. The making of the actual parts is amazingly automated.
DeadDeeg@reddit
We have multiple factories in NH producing NGSW parts, but yeah, hard to keep up.
nastygirl11b@reddit
No they aren’t lol
The programs gonna fail and be a total waste of money because it’s based on pre ww2 doctrine lol
namae0@reddit
What's the ww2 doctrine ?
nastygirl11b@reddit
Dig in and shoot big bullet at guy over 500 yards away
Other guy dig in and shoot big bullet back at you from over 500 yards away
In practice that doesn’t happen
Even in WW1 and WW2 thru modern times the vast majority of infantry engagements are from 0-300 meters
Firefights are won from getting the most rounds on target as quickly and as accurately as possible and being able to move as fast as possible when you need to
Carrying a heavier gun with a slower rate of fire and higher recoil and less ammo doesn’t do that
vinylpurr@reddit
Great, more unnecessary military spending. Give the troops a damn raise, not an overpriced rifle.
ReloadScientist001@reddit
I heard if u slam the 308 mag in u can’t send the bolt forward because it sends the mag to far in and you have to pull it out
McSkillz21@reddit
Seems like a laughable attempt to give anti-firearms clowns some minimal credibility to say "see the military uses braces, so everything with a brace is a weapon of war"
ObligationOriginal74@reddit
Im Active Duty Army and we got M4s in my unit that have old M16A2 lowers that have been modded to semi and Fully auto with the burst mode engraving X'ed out with mix match pistol grips and forward grips and CCOs/Acogs from early GWOT.My son will be SMA by the time PFC Joe gets one of these.
IllAssistance7@reddit
What job do you do? We had m4s at least haha. Our m9s were ancient tho.
ObligationOriginal74@reddit
We got M4a1's and a couple 249s.They are clapped out but they work.Im a super duper POG tho.Infantry units are probably wayyyy more high speed.
IllAssistance7@reddit
We also had m16s and old ass mossbergs. Our mk48s were in the best shape, but that’s prob because they were used the least. The ones we used to qualify from the armory were done done. They would get malfunctions immediately, and shoot 4-5 feet left at 100yds
Odd-Solid-5135@reddit
Curious, do you qualify with Kentucky windage or how does one adequately qualify with weapon that clapped out?
CaptainQuattro@reddit
You cheat by having your friend, who already did his qual that day, set up on the lane next to you, and instruct him to shoot at your targets (but usually only the hard ones). That way, if you miss, he will hopefully not. You get a 100% score, and he gets a failing score, but it doesn't matter because he already qualified earlier that day.
StrawberryNo2521@reddit
My experience in Canada, first as a regular enlisted now as a mustang reservist, is that Infantry and supporting arms get first dibs on kit. We had saws and gpmgs that ran like a dream in unit.
Reserves.....Bro..... what is rifling and why did 55 of our rifles fail inspection 22 years ago but are still in service. Our company level C6, one per platoon and a gpmg section with 3 more and one in our hq just randomly tacked on, is a single shot weapon. Half the lmgs have one gas setting, runs like shit, cause the regular setting just doesn't cycle. M203s with cracks, couple just dont have firing pins. Like fuck, if we get dragged into a conflict in eastern europe my Coy sends a platoon to each Coy of the regular light infantry Battalion we support, they have two rifle platoons and a weapons platoon. Unit I spent 10 years in by happen stance. My Eryx gunners are TO&E'd Lancasters, with no mags, forget about the fact we have no ATGMs for them to use in the first place. When you hand me a soup sandwich, you dnt get to be mad at me when I tell your our readiness if fucking zero.
IllAssistance7@reddit
Everything that was built like a tank has suffered decades of use, and the new toys coming out work half of the time or come with defects. The other equipment just doesn’t get to you because it doesn’t exist or has been delayed months (or years). Biden flat out said the west is running out of 155mm shells. Kinda getting off the topic of firearms here but it’s nice to know other people have the same problems with even basic kit.
StrawberryNo2521@reddit
Biden, well old man dementia fumbled at the finish, said that the Ukrainians are low and US production is behind that and has made up the gap with its stockpiles. The UK and Germany, two of the US closest peers, have only every kept like 2-3 days worth of all guns blazing stockpiled and everyone is worried when the US goes down to just 200 days of firing 6x as many guns while production from the sole producer running at 30% capacity and the secondary sites making like 30 shells a day. The UK pay for two sites to run two production lines and have been running one line at 50% for 25 years to replace the oldest stock. I dont know the west will never run out of shells, 105s we straight up might as the capacity to produce just isn't there like with the 155s, but I find it hard to believe the war planers didnt know a clash with the east would involve endless shelling and calculate the production we would need to invest in. "were importing tnt" Yup. That's been happening since the 80s. Cheaper to make over seas, mainly because Dept of Env Pro make them clean up the contamination left in the water ways.
Our tanks, fuck. It took almost a year to find a Squadron worth or Leos to send as aid. Most of our cavalry armour ride around in G wagons yelling "go away Im a tank" because if a part breaks, there is no stock to replace it. They just didnt buy any, figuring we would be replacing them by know and The Ukrainians kind of have dips on new parts.
guynamedgoliath@reddit
I was an 11B in the 82nd. Basically, it's the same deal.
moist_corn_man@reddit
clutches my m27
The horror…
RegalArt1@reddit
Care to provide a source? Otherwise I’m just going to assume you misread the actual headline
Purple-Theory-3672@reddit
My source is I made it the fuck up
Sean1916@reddit
Any chance of M4s and m16s going to the CMP?? 🤞 converted to semi auto of course.
LightSpeedAutism@reddit
Not a chance, but if you start a rebel group anywhere outside of the US, you can get a C130 full of FA M16s and M4s. Don’t worry about making it friendly or hostile to the US, apparently the CIA doesn’t really care about that one way or the other.
Brian-88@reddit
We could ship so many of these bad boys across the southern boarder and lose track of them before they end up being used in terror attacks in Europe... I feel like this might be silly and repeating ourselves though.
LightSpeedAutism@reddit
Sounds like the plot to a “Fast and Furious” movie.
CaracalWall@reddit
Needs more family.
LightSpeedAutism@reddit
I’m not related to any ATF agents.
IANvaderZIM@reddit
They’ll throw in a small airforce if your purchase is large enough.
Just a few light trainer/CAS bugsmashers, and a few Blackhawks. Not a lot, but a good start if you want to try governing a failed state.
CaracalWall@reddit
Life’s been pretty shitty here at home recently. I’m down.
Sean1916@reddit
I wonder if there could be grounds to sue to force them to send them to CMP? Our tax money bought them only right we should have an opportunity to get some of them before they get sent to Ukraine or outright decommissioned.
Sulla-was-right@reddit
Zero. We can’t get M14s, let alone all the M1s the Koreans are trying to give back. Obama literally dumped shiploads of M1 carbines into the ocean rather than allow the CMP to have them.
RingGiver@reddit
Legally, still counts as machine gun even if you do this.
Sean1916@reddit
No kidding? I could have sworn I saw some m14s on there from the Vietnam era awhile back. I thought they were full automatic if necessary?
ENclip@reddit
No. They may sell parts kits minus the lower. But you could buy surplus m16 and m4 parts kits for years and even now.
hitemlow@reddit
Well assuming they're pre-1986, not converted and fully transferrable.
And if they're post-86, not converted and fully transferrable.
NEp8ntballer@reddit
no chance. It'd be awesome if they'd let them sell the uppers though but they're likely all clapped out.
Sensitive_Try_7578@reddit
Those hex mags are cringe. Jam-o-matics. And won’t seat on a closed bolt.
Digitalhour@reddit
They better fix that mag issue!
IanHHk416@reddit
Op we need a source
TheREALstarS33D@reddit
Afghanistan got all the stuff we wish we had for free thank the government
pulmag-m855@reddit
Over-engineered expensive crap that doesn’t improve anything over the M4 except make it heavier, more failure points and fancier/high-tech looking. There is nothing wrong with DI gas system, there is nothing wrong with the well established lightweight design of standard AR reciever parts. If anything many companies already make parts at a much lower cost overall to improve configurations where necessary. There was nothing wrong with American gun makers supplying the us military…but no let’s have a foreign company supply them with less resources and infrastructure…
Agammamon@reddit
Everybody here is confusing the Virtus for the Spear.
The Spear is the XM-7. The Virtus is just another piston AR in 5.56.
And the Army's not replacing everyone's rifle with the XM-7 either.
Agammamon@reddit
They're not replacing M-4's with the Virtus. That would make no sense whatsoever.
They are replacing the rifles in a limited number of 'front-line' troop positions with the XM-7 - known as the 'Spear' - but everyone else will be using M-16/M-4's for the forseable future.
RingGiver@reddit
The current contract isn't for enough rifles to replace the Army's whole inventory. It's just for a few combat arms units.
And the general whose pet project it is will be retired soon
ILikestoshare@reddit
They gonna give all the old rifles to the taliban or will these ones go to some African warlord?
toastthebread@reddit
They're gona go to police for their side hustle selling them to the cartel.
MichianaMan@reddit
Lmao
MichianaMan@reddit
Source: PNN private news network
Possum_Gully@reddit
That seems like a logistical nightmare with that special ammunition regarding NATO standards... Honestly, an AR-10 would have been a better idea in my opinion. 7.62 NATO is a great choice and is pretty comparable to 277 Fury, with a similar energy as well, but lower velocity. Maybe 277 Fury is easy to make and the rights to it aren't held by SIG?
Unicorn187@reddit
Something we've found in the last few decades. Worrying about logistics of Europe and what they use is pointless. The power of the US military is in it's logistics. We can supply our own troops our own ammo (except enough .50 BMG for some reason). We don't need to worry about interchangeability with our European allies. This was also shown when the UK had to use some weaker rounds for their L85 and L85A1 and the LSW until they were finally fixed.
The biggest reason that it would ever make a difference would be if we had to supply Europe with ammo, and that would still be pretty easy.
A .277, .276, or a 6.8 has always been better than the 7.62 of either type. The M1 Garand was originally chambered in .276 Pederson but the US had a ton of 30-06 so it was cheaper to keep using it. After WW2 the British came up with a .276 and a .277 that were both superior (range and trajectory) than the 30-06, but the US maintained it's love affair with it and we forced the 7.62x51.
Possum_Gully@reddit
It also depends on whether only one vendor can produce it or not, it's not good to have only one supplier for logistics. Sometimes it is better to keep something around if the alternative has limited benefits of those outweigh the risk. They want to replace 5.56 and 7.62 with 277, which is good for logistics, but licensing can be a bitch, so going with a sole source can be more of a risk. Replacing 5.56 with 7.62 would be better for logistics at that point. You remove an element of risk using an existing cartridge. If war breaks out in Europe, an ally is attacked, and they invoke Article V, then we should be able to supply them with the appropriate ammunition for their defense if their industry is attacked. STANAG isn't just for our benefit, it is for the benefit of all allies and ourselves.
XRaySascha@reddit
Mcx virtus is the 556 /. 223 ar15 like Version and predecessor of the spear lt, not the ngsw 6.6x51mm / 277 fury ar10 size Version.
Possum_Gully@reddit
Wow, they really like SIG. How did that get past acquisitions? They just bought the M17/M18 and XM7 (Spear), which says is to replace the M4 Carbine in the Wikipedia article.
nastygirl11b@reddit
They didn’t because it’s a lie lol
Unlucky-Hamster-2791@reddit
I’ve been a SIG guy for a couple decades but this is gonna end the way it did for Colt. Gubment money will be too appealing and their consumer market will be neglected and stagnate. Hell, you can already see it with how short lived the hype around the value of buying a Legion line.
nastygirl11b@reddit
And the 556 is NOT in the contract
CD3ANO@reddit
Yeah that’s false info bud. Now the Army is adopting the MCX SPEAR in 6.8mm. The point of them adopting this next generation weapon systems is to move on to a superior round in the 6.8mm.
True-Ad6273@reddit
Lol. Fake News.
ToastedWhiteOakCask@reddit
The number of people in this sub who believe the government only makes smarts choices is mind boggling
mrp1ttens@reddit
Gunstore commando nonsense. Until a rifle comes along that is measurably better in every way the m4 is here to stay and will simply be subject to iterative improvements.
tjt169@reddit
Definitely not the case, gtfo
M6D_Magnum@reddit
Press (X) to doubt.
CorneliusSoctifo@reddit
yes we will change our standard service rifle and equip all troops with hex mags
Konstant_kurage@reddit
…… this week.
These_Sprinkles621@reddit
Cash grab coupled with the usual operating procedure of fighting the last war. Let’s make a heavier gun with an expensive ammo to replace every weapon we have stockpiled for decades. If they released them as like a marksman rifle for squads sure, but how apparently it will be for every soldier makes no sense.