Airspace above FRG? | TheaterFire

[-]

livinginspace@reddit

Student pilot here, so let me flex my knowledge a bit and see how wrong I am. Being under the mode C veil, you'll be required to have ads-b out and a transponder. So you'll be talking with Approach already when you're in that air space. They'll give you a squawk so they know exactly who/where you are, and will vector you accordingly for traffic. Yes, they are constantly looking for you, and will give you guidance to avoid any traffic. I haven't flown in that area, but do learn under another Class Bravo shelf so I imagine it's similar.

Reply

[-]

r80rambler@reddit

Transponder and ADSB aren't requirements for all aircraft in this airspace even if they're required for yours, and there's no requirement in class g/e to talk to approach so no vectoring or flight following out traffic alerts.

Reply

[-]

Living_Lavishness478@reddit

I have never heard that before, what aircraft would not need adsb?

Reply

[-]

offcamberxj@reddit

Come by for a tour!

Reply

[-]

Living_Lavishness478@reddit

I fly out of here lol what school are you out of?

Reply

[-]

offcamberxj@reddit

I'm a controller at FRG

Reply

[-]

Living_Lavishness478@reddit

Haha I pm’d you

Reply

[-]

r80rambler@reddit

Easy answer is aircraft without engine driven electrical systems. Better answer is to check the regs, 91.215.

Reply

[-]

Living_Lavishness478@reddit

Thank you!

Reply

[-]

livinginspace@reddit

Not required 30nm from a Class Bravo? I feel like that's been drilled into my head from day 1

Reply

[-]

r80rambler@reddit

What if you don't have an alternator or a generator? (Or more generally, an engine driven electrical system)

Reply

[-]

offcamberxj@reddit

There's no requirement to talk to approach if you're below the bravo here.

Reply

[-]

randombrain@reddit

> Being under the mode C veil, you'll be required to have ads-b out and a transponder. There are limited exceptions but generally yes, this is correct. > So you'll be talking with Approach already when you're in that air space. How on Earth does this follow from the previous sentence?

Reply

[-]

Separate-Worry-3799@reddit

Delta to 2600 ft AGL echo from there to 4000 MSL then bravo from 4000 to 7000

Reply

[-]

BeaconSlash@reddit

In no way do I want to speak for NY TRACON, but generally speaking, aircraft landing the primary Class B airport shouldn't "routinely" be outside the Class B. Otherwise, the purpose of Class B airspace (that is, automatic segregation of IFR and VFR traffic without explicit clearance otherwise to a VFR) is negated.

Reply

[-]

stikshift@reddit (OP)

Usually they're cleared down to 4,000', or they'll be routed more west (where the floor is 1,500'), but many times I've seen 3,500', 3,000', even as low as 2,500' over FRG.

Reply

[-]

Tight-Associate4415@reddit

I’ve been at between 2-4k above FRG on downwind for the 22s at JFK at 200-250 assigned. I asked once about the high speed and the controller said “they always forget about that little slice of airspace below the Bravo.” (We should be below 200 knots there)

Reply

[-]

10FourGudBuddy@reddit

2600-4000 is E, below is D and above is Bravo.

Reply

[-]

Left_Chemistry_9739@reddit

Just wait. The tower at HPN is fixing to confiscate vast amounts of the people's airspace in the New York area. I believe they're now working in cahoots with TEB. Today we have reasonable VFR access with a standard TCA (Class B) extending a reasonable 20 miles from each primary airport, and a reasonable ceiling of 7000, making it easy to navigate around or over. Soon the Class B will resemble ATL, extending 30 miles or more from the primary airports, extending to 12,000 or higher, and new Class C airspace for HPN and TEB. Remember going over NY is a very efficient way to get up/down the east coast without going over water. It won't be after this conspiracy becomes a raw deal for regular American pilots. If we have to fly 30 miles west to avoid airspace, and 30 miles back, it's gonna easily add a fuel stop for most light aircraft. The Deep State is in full effect, and continues to have GA as a target. It's a real shame. Today the N90 controllers do a great job making it all work.

Reply

[-]

FBoondoggle@reddit

Is this supposed to be a parody of you-know-who? "Regular hardworking American pilots," "deep state" lol.

Reply

[-]

Left_Chemistry_9739@reddit

Pretty sure this one is gonna sail through with the support of the current Regime. The man is not for limited government, and his moves in aviation have been no different. He is nothing more than a Leftist. Pilots should be agahst with what's gonna happen to NY airspace.

Reply

[-]

FBoondoggle@reddit

A leftist. LOL.

Reply

[-]

offcamberxj@reddit

JFK traffic routinely goes below the floor of the bravo when they're using the 22s. The advisory on the ATIS is technically only for aircraft in the Delta, and it's only an advisory. Nobody controls that airspace, so you can be there. I'd suggest that it's not the smartest place to be when the 22s are in use, but they don't always utilize the airspace like that. The advisory came out of a pretty nasty event that was filed as a NMAC by an air carrier landing at JFK, so please be vigilant if you're in that area when JFK is landing on the 22s. Approach will of course look out for traffic, but they also can't completely account for what a VFR aircraft not on frequency at an unverified altitude is going to do. We (FRG) will call traffic for our aircraft when we have the time, but often we do not. I would suggest getting flight following from approach if you want to go through there (they work VFRs over the Delta often, or coordinate transitions) or you can call FRG for a transition... We can just about always cross midfield at or above 1.6, and try to be as accommodating as possible.

Reply

[-]

islandwatch@reddit

Thanks for the good work! You guys and gal were on fire today!

Reply

[-]

offcamberxj@reddit

Thanks! I can never stress enough that anyone flying in and out of FRG plays a big role in our success. The overwhelming majority of pilots do a great job getting in and out of the airport. Off topic, but your Casio Duro bracelets are great, especially the jubilee!

Reply

[-]

islandwatch@reddit

Haha, wow, now I'm wondering which controller is a watch fan! I visited the tower 2 years ago as a student and all such nice people.

Reply

[-]

offcamberxj@reddit

Must have missed you! Don't be a stranger, we love letting pilots see things from our side.

Reply

[-]

Severe_Elderberry769@reddit

It’s echo. You can fly through it without talking to anybody. End of discussion.

Reply

[-]

ryan0694@reddit

I can also lad at an untowered airport without talking to anyone. Doesn't make it a good idea.

Reply

[-]

nyc2pit@reddit

The question wasn't whether it was a good idea.

Reply

[-]

ryan0694@reddit

"Is it just unwise to fly VFR there if JFK's 22 runways are in use?" Seems like that's the question.

Reply

[-]

JPAV8R@reddit

I did all my flight training in the area and my first corporate gigs too. It’s true what they say about New York: if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.

Reply

[-]

kevinw1526@reddit

People were legitimately #20 to land earlier today 😂

Reply

[-]

offcamberxj@reddit

Today was pretty busy. The next week and a half is gonna be crazy.

Reply

[-]

stikshift@reddit (OP)

UN Week and Ryder Cup at the same time is insane

Reply

[-]

x4457@reddit

> The area between 2,600' and 4,000' is Echo airspace, no? Correct. > so does NY TRACON look out for any VFR pilots in that space? Yes, that is their job. > Is it just unwise to fly VFR there if JFK's 22 runways are in use? No, it is just as much your airspace as it is theirs.

Reply

[-]

headphase@reddit

>No, it is just as much your airspace as it is theirs. Hard disagree. Heavy metal doesn't get to choose how they transit that gap. Cutting through that airspace while the 22L/R downwind train is rolling is not just an unnecessary risk, it's also just a dick move to the controllers and pilots who are the ones that have to recover from any RAs that a GA pilot might cause.

Reply

[-]

x4457@reddit

If N90 wanted it to be positive control airspace, they could have petitioned for that and had the airspace realigned to include that section as Class B. But it isn’t, so respectively, don’t care what you think is a dick move or not - they’re 100% entitled to that airspace. Oh no, you have to pitch up! Except not because N90 will cap you at 5 instead of 4 there and it’s a non issue cause that’s, ya know, their job and why the Mode C/ADS-B veil exists.

Reply

[-]

AutoRot@reddit

Is that space available? yes. Is it still unwise to be there? Also yes. Same as any personal minimums in aviation, just because you can legally doesn’t necessarily mean you should.

Reply

[-]

nyc2pit@reddit

You are the most reasonable CFI posting on reddit. Why is it that most cfis on Reddit become complete assholes?

Reply

[-]

NYPuppers@reddit

The short answer here is there is no need to put yourself in this position. There is lots of airspace between FRG and islip charlie... use that if you need to transition north/south across Long Island. Save FRG the headache.

Reply

[-]

GoFlapsDownOnMe@reddit

If you want to fly 500 feet below heavy jets knock yourself out. You are entitled to that airspace.

Reply

[-]

Kevlaars@reddit

Caution: Wake turbulence.

Reply

[-]

wheeyls@reddit

I flew VFR into FRG on flight following, they looked out for me and kept me clear of traffic. Only issue was approach basically cut me loose \_right\_ before I was going to enter FRG airspace. Didn't transfer me to tower, just canceled flight following and turned me loose. I was confused and thought I'd been handed over, which meant I busted the delta. Tower knew exactly what had happened and worked with me; apparently it is common.

Reply

[-]

mustang__1@reddit

Approach did that to me and frg asked me if I was ready to copy a number. I said "approach just cut me off didn't they coordinate?"... I never got the number.

Reply

[-]

offcamberxj@reddit

Approach is not required to coordinate. Usually we see you coming and understand what happened, but if it's busy you might get missed coming from the West. Use your second radio to call us.

Reply

[-]

mustang__1@reddit

I don't think my second radio functioned in that plane... but at any rate, I'm much more careful to either give my self a diversion vector or call up quickly. Or... these days... I'm usually IFR anyway...

Reply

[-]

stikshift@reddit (OP)

Those tower controllers are something else. Dealing with dozens of students per day and keeping it safe must be exhausting

Reply

[-]

cazzipropri@reddit

I happened to hear one of them having a meltdown

Reply

[-]

offcamberxj@reddit

It's fun!

Reply

[-]

NYPuppers@reddit

yeah its insanely busy there and is SOP unfortunately. They usually terminate when you get to captree or deerk park so you have a minute to call in, but it sucks if FRG is jammed and you end up making a mess doing 360s or something on the edge of the delta.

Reply

[-]

ps3x42@reddit

I'm confused as to why that would be SOP. Wouldn't that just increase the workload on the local controllers?

Reply

[-]

offcamberxj@reddit

Just call us on the second radio if you don't get terminated soon. VFR aircraft are rarely actually flashed to us, and approach isn't going to coordinate your entry into the Delta. We get what's going on if you're coming from the West, but it can be a shitty situation if we're busy. Call us on the second radio and don't force yourself into violating the delta or a last second turn away.

Reply

[-]

NYPuppers@reddit

Frg is just crazy busy. I think they would rather talk to you when they decide they have time than deal with VFR hand offs from approach on a schedule that doesn’t work for them.

Reply

[-]

ps3x42@reddit

I used to work in the area, and I'm familiar with their workload. It still just seems ass backward to me. Then again, when n90 is in the conversation, all bets are off.

Reply

[-]

BabiesatemydingoNSW@reddit

N90?

Reply

[-]

randombrain@reddit

Question for you, OP. What separation minima does ATC apply between an IFR aircraft and a VFR aircraft in Class E airspace?

Reply

[-]

thegolfpilot@reddit

Linger in that airspace and monitor the approach frequency to find out

Reply

[-]

perfect_fifths@reddit

It has to do with jfk. I’m next to the airport myself, but a lot of people also don’t realize that by jfk there’s also lga and Newark and also teterboro so it can be kind of rough. I know people always ask why NY controllers are the way they are, my guess that is why.

Reply

[-]

EliteEthos@reddit

Well, what is it? Don’t you have a CFI?

Reply

[-]

Freighter_27-2@reddit

Usually they recommended you stay at or below 1500 till over the water to the north or bridge to the south. The atis will sometimes tell you traffic may transition the northern part of the airspace 2000-4000 feet. I just stay low till I’m over the water

Reply

[-]

FlyMontgomery@reddit

The FAA publishes airways on VFR sectionals for situational awareness. Since it is class E, NY approach will be looking out for VFR traffic but they can often be swamped. I would not linger on a victor airway. Getting flight following or monitoring approach if they aren’t offering vfr services can be a good option for de conflicting with jet traffic. Adsb-in is a great tool as well

Reply

[-]

LowTimePilot@reddit

Almost every other day FRG has "When departing to the North, maintain at or below 1,500 due to inbound traffic into JFK." or something to that effect. I usually adhere to it until out of the lateral airspace limits and then b line it for a proper altitude where an engine out won't result in a house landing. You're within your right to fly between 2,600 and 4,000 though, and you're in the Mode C vail so I presume they'll route traffic around you, but as PIC I've never tried because it doesn't seem like good ADM.

Reply

[-]

rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity: --- I don't know if this is a quirk or something people know about, but above FRG, the NY Bravo has a floor of 4,000'. However, the Delta above FRG extends only to 2,600'. The area between 2,600' and 4,000' is Echo airspace, no? Jets flying on V44 enroute to JFK routinely transit at altitudes lower than 4,000' over FRG, so does NY TRACON look out for any VFR pilots in that space? Is it just unwise to fly VFR there if JFK's 22 runways are in use? --- Please downvote this comment until it collapses. Questions about this comment? [Please see this wiki post before contacting the mods](https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/wiki/index/rflyingtower/). --- I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please [contact the mods of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/flying).

Reply

Reply to Post

64 Comments