Any idea what this sub machine gun suppose to be ? (Anti-Soviet partisan 1940~1950)
Posted by vol4ok@reddit | ForgottenWeapons | View on Reddit | 55 comments
Horilka@reddit
Is this Baltic or Ukrainian resistance? I would say Baltic because I think I studied 90% of pictures of Ukrainian Insurgent Army. I wonder how this 1948 Czech design ended up there...
shark_aziz@reddit
Could it be the Forest Brothers? Lithuania used Sa 23s in some numbers.
Away_Comparison_8810@reddit
Where Is that info fro
shark_aziz@reddit
I found this picture of a trio of Lithuanian resistance members. One of them is holding the Sa 23.
Although, I don't know if the guy in the picture above is part of the Forest Brothers.
Horilka@reddit
It is all the same person. Juozas Lukša also known by the pseudonym Daumantas or Skirmantas (August 10, 1921 in Juodbūdis village, Prienai District Municipality – September 4, 1951 in Pabartupis village, Kaunas district) was one of the most prominent post-World War II leaders of the Lithuanian partisans, the anti-Soviet armed resistance.
He was fighting against Soviets, In 1947 as a messenger crossed the occupied country border, got in contact with French Intelligence and CIA, parachuted back to fight in 1950. Killed in 1951.
I see a pattern here about curio firearms. I have pictures of Vasyl Kuk, commander of Ukrainian resistance with M1 para carbine, a firearm that should not be present in Ukraine. He got it from parachuted messengers (by that time Ukrainian resistance had solid collaboration with British and American Intelligence).
Now, I still don't get how "fresh" 1948 design was acquired by Americans outside of Czecho-Slovakia. But IIRC Czechs were on selling spree in late 1940x?
Away_Comparison_8810@reddit
Regarding the origin of the weapon, Czechoslovakia did not export these submachine guns in 1948-1950 because the army itself had few, I have no information about whether samples were sent somewhere for demonstration, but even in that case the samples usually returned home, although not always. Another possibility is that Western secret services were also present in Czechoslovakia and stole some there.
Horilka@reddit
https://alchetron.com/Juozas-Luk%C5%A1a
Horilka@reddit
Actually this picture with 3 fighters show American belts and grenades. So this group was equipped by Americans. Safe to assume American were the source of Czech SMG.
Away_Comparison_8810@reddit
Nice! Thanks.
Terrible-Drink9383@reddit
Sa. 24 or 26 (23 uses 9mm para. And 26 uses soviet tokarev rounds)
Hrajnoga@reddit
This is an actual 9x19 one. An Sa-25. Very rare to get nowadays.
Terrible-Drink9383@reddit
Yeah, i know. There were models 23,24, both in 9mm, 23 had wooden stock, and 24 had folding one. Models 25 and 26 are the same but with tokarev:)
762x38r@reddit
where is this guy from? I barely hear anything about the post-ww2 anti-soviet partisans
BigBrassPair@reddit
Ukrainian Nationalists resisted the Soviet government into the early 50s.
Snoo_72621@reddit
That's crazy, what were they up to before then?
QuillsROptional@reddit
They were being starved to death by Stalin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Honest-Head7257@reddit
Holodomor happened in eastern Ukraine, while anti Soviet insurgency was located in western Ukraine, annexed from Poland, that never suffered from holodomor.
Chuj_Domana@reddit
Collaborating with Germans and murdering Poles with axes and pitchforks.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
BigBrassPair@reddit
Fins collaborated with Germans as well. When you are stuck between two monsters, you do what you need to do to survive.
kwb166@reddit
Before then? They were probably still anti-Russian partisans.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany
justaheatattack@reddit
omg, PUTIN WAS RIGHT!
leicanthrope@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
justaheatattack@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army
leicanthrope@reddit
That's not Russia or the Soviet Union itself, the legacy of both Putin claims.
Snoo_72621@reddit
I wonder at what point they stopped being Nazis
leicanthrope@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
BigBrassPair@reddit
They were never Nazis.
annonistrator@reddit
They just fought the subjects with them they were Ukrainian nationalists not German ones silly
Growingplantt@reddit
Estonia and Latvia had alot as well as Ukraine
KindlyAsparagus7957@reddit
The book/documentary "forrest brothers" covers the latvian resistance and its an incredible story
vol4ok@reddit (OP)
Post WW2 Anti-Soviet partisan -why you don't hear them it's because they weren't successful.
This dude: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juozas_Luk%C5%A1a
Small info i guess on partisans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_partisans
tokentallguy@reddit
the NKVD/KGB really did a number on them. infiltrated their networks and shot many of them.
762x38r@reddit
rest in peace
TheAFKAxolotl@reddit
Czech Sa. 23 submachine gun
vol4ok@reddit (OP)
Thank you, really interesting piece of history right here.
RaiderCat_12@reddit
Czech small arms technology is horribly underrated, those guys have always been brilliant
SwjatMonach@reddit
But the production technology of these weapons is inversely proportional. The mass of the receiver blank in the ZB-26 is similar to that of the MG34, despite the fact that the total mass is less. Well, about this samopal (ironically, in Czech it means "automatic weapon", that is, a submachine gun or an assault rifle, and in Russian it means "zip gun"), ironically, in the competition for a submachine gun for the Czechoslovak army, the finalists were the Koucký brothers ZK-476 and this Sa. vz. 23 Jaroslav Holeček, but they preferred the latter because it required more human labor, because Czechoslovakia faced enormous unemployment after the war, because the main buyer of Czechoslovak industrial products capitulated, and therefore they considered a more laborious sample (vz in the name, vzor, just means "sample") more preferable.
ArthurMBretas03@reddit
Some of the best guns out there
AgeSame5845@reddit
Long live the ZB-26
murdmart@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa_23
cty_hntr@reddit
Uzi was inspired by this design. Telescoping bolt and magazine well in handle.
RaiderCat_12@reddit
I also see a lot of design elements of the later PM-RAK there
Tobi_1989@reddit
PM RAK is more like a large machine pistol with an actual slide. This was in its heart a classic infantry submachine gun in the same weight class as MP-40, just made way more compact by telescoping bolt.
AdWonderful3935@reddit
Sa 23
Antonw194200@reddit
The picture is not from 1940-1950, it's probably way later than that seeing how the gun was put in to production in 1949 and probably not widely issued until a few yeas later.
Away_Comparison_8810@reddit
Gun Went to production And service in 1948, this photo Is somwhere 50-53. Still dont explain how the get in baltic resistence.
Antonw194200@reddit
There were no Sa25 in the hands of troops in 1948. The first guns were issued in late 1949 and wider distribution came in 1950.
Entire_Judge_2988@reddit
Uzisky
bobbobersin@reddit
CZ 23, predecessor to the scorpion in service
Away_Comparison_8810@reddit
I dont know for what those dislikes, sa 61 really came to exist like another generation for sa 23 25 24 26 in army And manufacturing, export.
Loki_8888@reddit
Forest brothers?
The_Gabster10@reddit
A gun that is very expensive to turn into a semi auto
bucskesz@reddit
ZB, VZ 26
No-Example-5107@reddit
Ian has a video on the Sa vz. 26, which is from the same family of submachineguns.
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