Belief in an intelligent god that has no interest in us has no practical difference to lack of belief in a god. Neither involve belief in an afterlife or specific religious laws. So outside of debate, they don't need to give themselves a specific name.
That's called a religion. There are plenty of religions that don't have a god - they are distinguished, as I said, by belief in afterlife and religious laws
I'm not even talking about the universe being quantized. I'm just saying that just because something is infinite doesn't mean it encompasses everything. The natural numbers are infinite and yet they do not include the real numbers. You cannot even map them to the real numbers so you can't even argue they are equivalent. Anon sees infinity and thinks it just means everything. If you can understand the difference between countable and uncountable infinity then it's very easy to understand why anon's assertion is idiotic.
yes it does if the 1. the universe is finite 2. the universe is discrete (which is plausible but we have no idea) 3. time is infinite 4. particles move randomly in any amount, then because of 3 and 4 we can conclude that all possible combinations of particles will occur in any finite space. 1 and 2 imply that the universe is a finite set of particles, so (3 and 4) and (1 and 2) imply that every possible combination of particles will occur which means that unless all gods cannot exist physically, then some god has existed at some point in time
Only in the sense that the observable universe is finite. We have no reason to believe the universe ends outside of our time cone.
the universe is discrete (which is plausible but we have no idea)
The mass and energy in the universe is quantized. All evidence we have point to space and time being continuous though.
time is infinite
Again we have no reason to believe this. Only a limited amount of time has passed within our time cone. Anything before the big bang can't be observed and after vacuum decay time might become meaningless.
1 and 2 imply that the universe is a finite set of particles
Within the observable universe, yes.
(3 and 4) and (1 and 2) imply that every possible combination of particles will occur
Assuming that the processes in the universe aren't cyclical, and time continued for infinity without experiencing a heat death, it would only take on an infinite number of configurations NOT every configuration. Those two things are not equivalent. That's exactly what I meant by
Anon sees infinity and thinks it just means everything.
We proved those aren't the same thing centuries ago. I swear the dunning krueger effect will be the end of us.
mentioning the dunning krueger effect is always so ironic because it doesnt even capture the whole spectrum of expertise and is only a small statistical tendency
first of all for the first 3 points they are unknowns so you cannot say one is wrong or right yet, this is simply a conclusion under a given set of assumptions. this is how all of mathematics works but you still believe in it.
infinity does mean everything if particles move randomly, which is part of the assumptions
i dont really think about it. grand universal truths dont matter much to my day to day life. i understand there's comfort and peace in knowing why things happened and why everything started and kept going, but i never really took it as something that was an anchoring point to my life
I was always more afraid of death when I was a Christian. I don't entirely understand why you'd be afraid of death if you don't have the threat of hell behind it. You just stop existing, like you didn't exist before you were born.
I don't want to not exist. I don't know what I want, but I just never want to find out what happens after death if I'm not inarguably guaranteed eternal paradise, which of course is impossible. There are literally infinite possibilities, no matter how minuscule the chance, of what could be after death, implying that at least half of that infinity is a bad outcome.
Literally wrote a novel about it ,actually. The main character learns beyond any doubt that the secrets of death and why we are here are the worst possible answer and descends into self harming madness out of fear for the rest of her life.
And that's where I see my life going. The risk of anything after death is too great, including nothing. I don't want nothing. I don't want to ever face the possibility that either there is nothing after death or we actually are awaited by one of infinite lovecraftian hells forever.
Hey, I don't wanna die either. I still have so many things to do! But think about this from a rational perspective: before you were born, you did not exist. You don't remember anything, you didn't feel anything, you just... weren't.
There is no reason to assume that dying is any different. We live in a universe governed by physical law, and our consciousness are manifestations of biological electrochemical processes. The soul does not exist, and "you" are not separate from your body. Once these functions cease to exist, so do you. And what does that feel like? Like nothing. Like not being born. You don't remember, you don't feel, because you don't exist. Another experience that could help you imagine it is dreamless sleep.
It may sound scary or ominous, but once again, think about it. You will most likely die of old age, after a near-century of living and experiencing being human. You would've seen and felt many things and grown wise over the years. But also, you would probably be tired. Physically, mentally... and just about ready to peace out. In this way, death is a blessing. We come here, we live for quite a long time and experience being human, and finally fall into peaceful, eternal slumber. No one bothers you, you don't feel anguish or despair, or boredom or fear. You don't have to do anything anymore. That's why many people actually feel drawn to death, as an escape from their pain.
Of course, I don't think we should desire death either. It will come anyways, so why speed it up? Death is something to respect, but not fear. It is not the antithesis of life, it is simply its final chapter.
I don't even know if my fear is rational anymore. It's honestly more like hatred. I hate death. I feel like I'm losing at something, being made a fool of. Something about it makes me feel genuinely, personally insulted.
I want the soul to be real. I want my peace and happiness. I want this entire fucking reality to bend to me so I can have a small ounce of peace for once in my life not dominated by this fear and hate for death. And I can only see myself getting more wrathful toward it as I get older. Or maybe just going insane.
Yes, I've been to therapy. No therapist or friend or family member has ever had an answer or cared beyond "damn, that's rough".
Well, I'm very interested now. I'm no therapist, but I'm curious. What is it about death that makes you feel like you're losing at something? Or that even it is mocking you?
I know you said it wasn't entirely rational, but think about it deeply. Is there really no reason or aspect it makes you feel this way?
Lack of control, probably. Parallel fear of failure as well. Unresolved issues with my religious upbringing, maybe. Again, the idea that any infinite amount of hells are technically possible, even if we cannot perceive or imagine them until it is too late.
And I have a hard time explaining why, but the idea of the void, nonexistence, immediately infuriates me. Again, maybe cuz I was promised heaven growing up until I was 21 and walked away from the faith. I find no comfort in the idea of ceasing to be. It scares me almost as much as hell. But I think it's the fact that I can't control it or avoid it makes me the most irrationally angry.
A god that arises from the universe isn’t a god worth worshiping. A God that exists before and outside of the universe and brought this one into existence might be worth worshiping.
I believe in a God, not one who just watches earth but a cosmic entity (not human) that creates and observes the universe. He's not a human with a beard sitting on a chair but one of pure energy that gives birth to everything
Godlike AI entity will never be able to become the Christian god though. It’s just “godlike” because it would be orders of magnitude more powerful and intelligent than any human. But never “infinite”
There could be some entity that created our universe, but what created that entity’s universe? You can keep asking this question and eventually you’ll come to a universe that wasn’t created by a higher power. Why can’t that be our universe?
Well, because we now know that our universe does indeed have a beginning, and heads toward a somewhat cosmis end (heath/thermic death), so it can’t really be the cause without a cause in this type of causatio/cause argument.
Atheists don't deny AI simulation theory, but that theory at best is a cop-out answer because in the end that AI still has to be created in a real world where rules still have to apply, so you're back at square one.
Imagine not being an atheist and yet still being just as cringe as r/atheism
Except this is bullshit, time and space aren't infinite. Time itself is just a measure, it's not real. And space will eventually even out once all the energy of the universe becomes unusable. OOP is regarded.
I mean I suppose but that means that everything someone could conceive is a certainty. If time and space truly are infinite then humans will evolve and die off an infinite number of times. So he's technically right but in a way that's completely useless in every kind of meaningful way.
Gray_Fox_22@reddit
Even if God is inevitable, that doesn't mean any of the gods humans created are real.
SpaceBug176@reddit
I'm sure there is a word for that that's different from "Atheist."
CaterpillarLoud8071@reddit
Belief in an intelligent god that has no interest in us has no practical difference to lack of belief in a god. Neither involve belief in an afterlife or specific religious laws. So outside of debate, they don't need to give themselves a specific name.
SpaceBug176@reddit
See that's what you think. Last time I had this conversation with someone they said they believed in something after death, just not a god.
CaterpillarLoud8071@reddit
That's called a religion. There are plenty of religions that don't have a god - they are distinguished, as I said, by belief in afterlife and religious laws
isimsizbiri123@reddit
that would be a deist or a pantheist.
JustaBearEnthusiast@reddit
a basic understanding of countable infinity vs uncountable infinity demonstrates that anon is in fact highly regarded.
noobmasterdong69@reddit
thats only under the assumption that the universe is continuous
JustaBearEnthusiast@reddit
I'm not even talking about the universe being quantized. I'm just saying that just because something is infinite doesn't mean it encompasses everything. The natural numbers are infinite and yet they do not include the real numbers. You cannot even map them to the real numbers so you can't even argue they are equivalent. Anon sees infinity and thinks it just means everything. If you can understand the difference between countable and uncountable infinity then it's very easy to understand why anon's assertion is idiotic.
noobmasterdong69@reddit
yes it does if the 1. the universe is finite 2. the universe is discrete (which is plausible but we have no idea) 3. time is infinite 4. particles move randomly in any amount, then because of 3 and 4 we can conclude that all possible combinations of particles will occur in any finite space. 1 and 2 imply that the universe is a finite set of particles, so (3 and 4) and (1 and 2) imply that every possible combination of particles will occur which means that unless all gods cannot exist physically, then some god has existed at some point in time
JustaBearEnthusiast@reddit
Only in the sense that the observable universe is finite. We have no reason to believe the universe ends outside of our time cone.
The mass and energy in the universe is quantized. All evidence we have point to space and time being continuous though.
Again we have no reason to believe this. Only a limited amount of time has passed within our time cone. Anything before the big bang can't be observed and after vacuum decay time might become meaningless.
Within the observable universe, yes.
Assuming that the processes in the universe aren't cyclical, and time continued for infinity without experiencing a heat death, it would only take on an infinite number of configurations NOT every configuration. Those two things are not equivalent. That's exactly what I meant by
We proved those aren't the same thing centuries ago. I swear the dunning krueger effect will be the end of us.
noobmasterdong69@reddit
mentioning the dunning krueger effect is always so ironic because it doesnt even capture the whole spectrum of expertise and is only a small statistical tendency
first of all for the first 3 points they are unknowns so you cannot say one is wrong or right yet, this is simply a conclusion under a given set of assumptions. this is how all of mathematics works but you still believe in it.
infinity does mean everything if particles move randomly, which is part of the assumptions
djlatigo@reddit
Dude, r/Atheism is not here.
theyeshman@reddit
Did you think you were in /r/catholicism or something?
somehuman16@reddit
r/orphans isnt here either gtfo
retsoPtiH@reddit
congrats on upgrading your Atheism to Igtheism
probably the only reasonable "atheist" take once you exit reddit atheism puberty
EngineStraight@reddit
i dont really think about it. grand universal truths dont matter much to my day to day life. i understand there's comfort and peace in knowing why things happened and why everything started and kept going, but i never really took it as something that was an anchoring point to my life
TrueGootsBerzook@reddit
Helps deal with fear of death, honestly
Njorord@reddit
I was always more afraid of death when I was a Christian. I don't entirely understand why you'd be afraid of death if you don't have the threat of hell behind it. You just stop existing, like you didn't exist before you were born.
What is fearful about that?
TrueGootsBerzook@reddit
I don't want to not exist. I don't know what I want, but I just never want to find out what happens after death if I'm not inarguably guaranteed eternal paradise, which of course is impossible. There are literally infinite possibilities, no matter how minuscule the chance, of what could be after death, implying that at least half of that infinity is a bad outcome.
Literally wrote a novel about it ,actually. The main character learns beyond any doubt that the secrets of death and why we are here are the worst possible answer and descends into self harming madness out of fear for the rest of her life.
And that's where I see my life going. The risk of anything after death is too great, including nothing. I don't want nothing. I don't want to ever face the possibility that either there is nothing after death or we actually are awaited by one of infinite lovecraftian hells forever.
Njorord@reddit
Hey, I don't wanna die either. I still have so many things to do! But think about this from a rational perspective: before you were born, you did not exist. You don't remember anything, you didn't feel anything, you just... weren't.
There is no reason to assume that dying is any different. We live in a universe governed by physical law, and our consciousness are manifestations of biological electrochemical processes. The soul does not exist, and "you" are not separate from your body. Once these functions cease to exist, so do you. And what does that feel like? Like nothing. Like not being born. You don't remember, you don't feel, because you don't exist. Another experience that could help you imagine it is dreamless sleep.
It may sound scary or ominous, but once again, think about it. You will most likely die of old age, after a near-century of living and experiencing being human. You would've seen and felt many things and grown wise over the years. But also, you would probably be tired. Physically, mentally... and just about ready to peace out. In this way, death is a blessing. We come here, we live for quite a long time and experience being human, and finally fall into peaceful, eternal slumber. No one bothers you, you don't feel anguish or despair, or boredom or fear. You don't have to do anything anymore. That's why many people actually feel drawn to death, as an escape from their pain.
Of course, I don't think we should desire death either. It will come anyways, so why speed it up? Death is something to respect, but not fear. It is not the antithesis of life, it is simply its final chapter.
TrueGootsBerzook@reddit
I don't even know if my fear is rational anymore. It's honestly more like hatred. I hate death. I feel like I'm losing at something, being made a fool of. Something about it makes me feel genuinely, personally insulted.
I want the soul to be real. I want my peace and happiness. I want this entire fucking reality to bend to me so I can have a small ounce of peace for once in my life not dominated by this fear and hate for death. And I can only see myself getting more wrathful toward it as I get older. Or maybe just going insane.
Yes, I've been to therapy. No therapist or friend or family member has ever had an answer or cared beyond "damn, that's rough".
Njorord@reddit
Well, I'm very interested now. I'm no therapist, but I'm curious. What is it about death that makes you feel like you're losing at something? Or that even it is mocking you?
I know you said it wasn't entirely rational, but think about it deeply. Is there really no reason or aspect it makes you feel this way?
TrueGootsBerzook@reddit
Lack of control, probably. Parallel fear of failure as well. Unresolved issues with my religious upbringing, maybe. Again, the idea that any infinite amount of hells are technically possible, even if we cannot perceive or imagine them until it is too late.
And I have a hard time explaining why, but the idea of the void, nonexistence, immediately infuriates me. Again, maybe cuz I was promised heaven growing up until I was 21 and walked away from the faith. I find no comfort in the idea of ceasing to be. It scares me almost as much as hell. But I think it's the fact that I can't control it or avoid it makes me the most irrationally angry.
thatguy_jacobc@reddit
Can you take an ant looking at a cell phone and explain how to use it or how it works?
We are that ant, we physically lack the ability to perceive what is actually happening.
Ahabs-Left-Leg@reddit
Wooden-Peach-4664@reddit
Succubia@reddit
OG_Floatzel@reddit
How awkward would it be to rip ass in this scenario?
Weigh13@reddit
It is a logical impossibility for anything to be both all powerful and all knowing. Nothing can be both.
Goddamnpassword@reddit
A god that arises from the universe isn’t a god worth worshiping. A God that exists before and outside of the universe and brought this one into existence might be worth worshiping.
GuyOfNugget@reddit
This is also what happens in Christianity.
DeepQueen@reddit
I believe in a God, not one who just watches earth but a cosmic entity (not human) that creates and observes the universe. He's not a human with a beard sitting on a chair but one of pure energy that gives birth to everything
djlatigo@reddit
You just described the Christian God.😎☝🏼
Goddamnpassword@reddit
Fairer to say I’m describing the abrahamic God, it would also be close to Purusha in Hinduism as well.
poope_lord@reddit
Why are you so wise
Goddamnpassword@reddit
No_Inevitable_4893@reddit
Godlike AI entity will never be able to become the Christian god though. It’s just “godlike” because it would be orders of magnitude more powerful and intelligent than any human. But never “infinite”
retsoPtiH@reddit
no matter what an alien Elon tweaks to his Grok, it will never be as stupid as god being all-loving yet hating the gay people he made
No_Inevitable_4893@reddit
According to Christian theology god doesn’t hate any of his creations. All the hatred directed toward them comes from humans
EuGaguejei@reddit
Even if god is real I simply do not care about it's existence
-H_-@reddit
you cared enough to comment
gereffi@reddit
There could be some entity that created our universe, but what created that entity’s universe? You can keep asking this question and eventually you’ll come to a universe that wasn’t created by a higher power. Why can’t that be our universe?
HilHullin@reddit
Well, because we now know that our universe does indeed have a beginning, and heads toward a somewhat cosmis end (heath/thermic death), so it can’t really be the cause without a cause in this type of causatio/cause argument.
gereffi@reddit
Why not? Why can an original universe with no higher power not have a beginning and end?
noobmasterdong69@reddit
they arent beginning or ends in the traditional sense, things still exist just not in a form that we prefer
barwhalis@reddit
Roku has a dragon, not a basilisk.
Tygret@reddit
Imagine not being an atheist and yet still being just as cringe as r/atheism
Jozef_Baca@reddit
Ok, I am gonna engage with the bait
Infinite size doesent mean infinite possibilities, everything still has to abide by the laws of physics and chemistry and stuff like that.
Even in this infinite universe there is no planet with magic and unicorns.
real_picklejuice@reddit
Anon found God
Arstanishe@reddit
that might help oop cope
mudugumuh@reddit
I mean that’s not a bad point imo but it definitely does not validate existing religions or the added levels of morality they try to enforce on others
poope_lord@reddit
ender89@reddit
By that logic the chances of Christian’s landing on the right god to worship is basically nil.
retsoPtiH@reddit
unfortunatelly your argument is regarded, because in the vastness of the spacetime continuum, it is ME who is the most precious, smart and beautiful 😎
-- every human, no matter the faith or lack of it
D34d1y_5p00n@reddit
Choco milk is the one true god
hornwalker@reddit
God be like
schnaab@reddit
Can't spank your meat or do drugs when in a religion.
sassydodo@reddit
depends on the religion
Unironicfan@reddit
Limp-Temperature1783@reddit
Except this is bullshit, time and space aren't infinite. Time itself is just a measure, it's not real. And space will eventually even out once all the energy of the universe becomes unusable. OOP is regarded.
Fight9842@reddit
God isn't a certainty that's a wild assumption. Your desire for a god to exist doesn't equal evidence.
ReturnRadio@reddit
I mean I suppose but that means that everything someone could conceive is a certainty. If time and space truly are infinite then humans will evolve and die off an infinite number of times. So he's technically right but in a way that's completely useless in every kind of meaningful way.
Flimsy-Jello5534@reddit
Prove it
shlamingo@reddit
Define god
Fluffy-Rush-5530@reddit
God is most certainly a certainty but to think he cares for your petulant existence is just plain stupidity