What happens to the Duchess of Kent title?
Posted by Jiminy267@reddit | AskABrit | View on Reddit | 86 comments
Now that the Duchess of Kent has passed away, what happens to the title? Does it automatically go to their children? Or does it go to whoever the king sees fit to give it to whenever he decides?
Spare-Way7104@reddit
There currently is no duchess of kent since the death of the duke’s wife. There will be the next duchess of kent when the current duke dies & the dukedom is inherited by his son, meaning that the current countess of st andrews will be the next duchess.
iolaus79@reddit
She had the title because she was married to the Duke of Kent - he's still alive
When HE dies the title will go to their eldest child
Odd-Scheme6535@reddit
Eldest son. Dukedoms can only be inherited by males.
ODFoxtrotOscar@reddit
Here’s an example of a dukedom that can and has passed through the female line. It took an Act of Parliament for that to happen though, and I don’t think we’ll see that happen again (they’ll just be allowed to go extinct and be recreated as and when)
copperpin@reddit
Well yes but a horse could never be a member of parliament.
Odd-Scheme6535@reddit
Agreed and thanks, but please see my comments and reply to Significant-Key-762 below.
Significant-Key-762@reddit
The UK monarch carries the title Duke of Normandy, which was held by her (late, female) Majesty, QE2. In the Channel Islands, toasts to the monarch are raised "To the Duke". I accept this is rather an anomaly.
Odd-Scheme6535@reddit
Thank you. I gave the general rule, which is true in the vast majority of cases. I pondered getting into exceptions to the rule (because of course invariably there are some), but was short of time and didn't want to muddy the waters. Like so many things British, it gets complicated, and is not clear-cut. Luckily the other commenter and you have added in some details.
That said, while it is true that female British monarchs inherit, use and are known by the titles "Duke of Normandy" and "Duke of Lancaster" in some contexts, mostly in the Channel Islands and Lancashire, it is convention and custom rather than being legally valid. Somewhat like English then British monarchs using and claiming the title and rights of "King (or Queen) of France" for centuries after the possessions were lost and the validity of that claim became extinct in reality. Both dukedoms are defunct and vestigial, more so Normandy which was reclaimed by the French crown several centuries before the dukedom met its legal end in France, but also Lancaster, which hasn't descended adequately and legally to justify the title in many centuries. So, it's a case of "yes and no," awash in grey areas.
The Duchy of Lancaster as an estate and holdings obviously continues to exist as an appendage of the Crown, but the dukedom itself is technically extinct. Another clue to the special and hollowed out nature of this arrangement is that it was settled 325 years ago that while the sovereign is entitled to the income of the Duchy, they may not withdraw the capital. The Channel Islands as the Crown Dependency remnants of the Duchy of Normandy continue to exist, but the Duchy and dukedom are also technically extinct.
In this case then, while both female and male British monarchs may "inherit" and use the titles, they don't actually hold them, and neither legally vests in not only female, but also male monarchs!
That's the best summary I can give as a non-expert, and I should probably have stuck with my earlier decision to leave it alone. Cue disputation, but beware the authoritative-sounding pronouncements of unreliable and hallucinating AI!
Significant-Key-762@reddit
You make fair points
GingerWindsorSoup@reddit
Likewise in Lancashire, the toast was “The Queen, the Duke of Lancaster” and the Nation Anthem had one line changed to honour the Duke.
Available-Ear7374@reddit
Is that still the case, the crown now goes to the eldest regardless.
karmagirl314@reddit
The Succession act of 2013 only applies to the British throne, it has no affect on lesser titles.
iolaus79@reddit
Yes but in this case the eldest child is a son, but you are right I should have specified
ElectricalPick9813@reddit
Unless the current Duke were to marry again. I appreciate that he is 89 years old, but I am somewhat of an optimist.
Breakwaterbot@reddit
Waiting for a proposal, are you?
copperpin@reddit
I really want to upvote this comment, but it has the perfect number of upvotes.
ElectricalPick9813@reddit
Smiles coquettishly
scusemelaydeh@reddit
Sarah Ferguson enters the chat
Unhappy_Clue701@reddit
Funny how she suddenly seems the good one out of that pairing!
karmagirl314@reddit
Even if he were to marry again, the title will still pass to his oldest son on his death, and that son’s wife would be duchess.
GnaphaliumUliginosum@reddit
But the hyppothetical new wife, when widowed, would retain the title Dowager Duchess of Kent.
ElectricalPick9813@reddit
Of course, but a gal can dream…
The_Nunnster@reddit
And for anyone confused why Camilla was never Princess of Wales, that was done specifically out of respect for Diana. Diana was also the Duchess of Cornwall, and so was Camilla before becoming Queen.
Panceltic@reddit
I mean Camilla was Princess of Wales, she just didn't use the title. Like Prince Edward's children who are technically prince & princess, but their parents requested for the titles not to be used.
mulberrybushes@reddit
Eldest male child, don’t think women can be dukes just yet
martinbaines@reddit
There is one Dukedom that until recently was head by a woman: the Duke of Lancaster. The Duchy of Lancaster is a title held by the ruling monarch (remember which side won the Wars of the Roses), it has a lot of land and other investments and is one of those grey areas between state owned and royal owned.
Hence the late Queen Elizabeth II was also Duke of Lancaster.
mulberrybushes@reddit
Very cool to hear about this exception.
aeraen@reddit
She was also the duke of the Channel Islands (official title Duke of Normandy and Channel Islands).
For more useless information...
dbmag9@reddit
And Lord of Mann!
Lenniel@reddit
Their eldest son, who happens to be their oldest child in this instance.
Fun_Cheesecake_7684@reddit
We got rid of primogeniture a few years back, so it's now the oldest child, not the oldest son.
t_beermonster@reddit
That was for succession to the crown. Succession to each noble title is defined by the letters patent creating the title.
BaronVonTrinkzuviel@reddit
The short answer is that nothing happens to it.
The slightly longer answer is as follows...
So:
The heir apparent is Edward's son - George Windsor, Earl of St Andrews - who is married to countess Sylvana Tomaselli.
So by far the most likely course of events is that there will be no duchess until Edward dies, at which point Sylvana will become duchess purely by virtue of George becoming duke.
disagreeabledinosaur@reddit
Point 3, whether the current Duke remarries or not, his heirs wife will become Duchess of Kent on the current Dukes death.
There will be then two Duchesses of Kent, with slightly different styles.
SilverellaUK@reddit
A widow would be known as the Dowager Duchess, although, in this case I am sure there won't be a remarriage.
disagreeabledinosaur@reddit
I think she'd be "Duchess of Kent" and would(could?) lose the title on remarriage. "Dowager Duchess of Kent" is also an option, although I think the word Dowager has gone out of fashion.
Whereas the current Dukes wife would be "The Duchess of Kent"
onlysigneduptoreply@reddit
Yes in 1953 there were 3 Queens the late queen elizabeth 2nd. Her mother, and her grandmother as her grandmother and mother were only queen because of their husbands title and Elizabeth 2 was queen in her own right she was THE queen
SomeWomanFromEngland@reddit
Yes. But a queen who is married to the king (a queen consort) is still THE queen during her husband’s reign.
Panceltic@reddit
There is a famous photo of the Three Queens.
ODFoxtrotOscar@reddit
If there were, she would, like Katherine, be HRH The Duchess of Kent (getting both the royal and ducal titles from her husband). She may, or may not, decide to use the HRH part.
If she did and if then widowed, she would remain HRH The Duchess of Kent, and the wife of the new Duke would be The Duchess of Kent (as the duchy ceases to be royal)
Own_Ask4192@reddit
Okay, so if he remarries and then dies his widow would be Dowager Duchess of Kent. What if the widow then remarries to an earl? Would she remain Dowager Duchess and entitled to use that title or become merely a Countess?
BaronVonTrinkzuviel@reddit
In theory she would become a countess. In practice she might well choose to continue styling herself as a duchess.
Cracroft's Peerage addresses this exact question as follows:
Thus when the widow of the third and last Duke of Buckingham and Chandos made a second marriage with Earl Egerton of Tatton she still used the ducal style, though she would have been summoned to Court only as Countess Egerton of Tatton.
Own_Ask4192@reddit
Thanks so much for responding I have been wondering this for so long and never able to find an answer.
OK_LK@reddit
Ignorant Brit here: if Prince Edward is the current Duke of Kent, why isn't his current spouse, Sophie, granted the honorary title of the Duchess of Kent?
nonsequitur__@reddit
That was confusing me too! Thanks for asking
windswept_snowdrop@reddit
Different Prince Edward. The Duke of Kent is the son of the younger brother of George VI (George VI being Elizabeth II’s father). The Duke of Kent happens to also be called Edward and is a prince because he is the grandson of George V.
ODFoxtrotOscar@reddit
And after the death of the current Duke of Kent, it will cease to be a royal dukedom. The current Duke is HRH Prince Edward, because his grandfather was George V. The royal style goes as far as grandchildren of the monarch in the male line.
So his children do not get royal styles (they are the Earl of St Andrews (George), Lady Helen Taylor and Lord Nicholas Windsor
As it is unlikely that the current Duke will remarry, the next duchess will be the wife of the next duke, ie the current Countess of St Andrews (Sylvana)
CrowApprehensive204@reddit
Hi, under what circumstances does a title become "unused" I believe the last Duke of Cambridge before William was Queen Mary's father, and I think she had brothers,,was it not possible for them to inherit the dukedom?
Panceltic@reddit
Wikipedia says: "Prince George's marriage to Sarah Fairbrother produced three sons. However, due to the Royal Marriages Act 1772, the marriage was invalid (he had not asked for Queen Victoria's approval to marry) and his children were thus illegitimate and could not succeed to his titles; so, accordingly, all his titles became extinct on his death."
CrowApprehensive204@reddit
Thank you
Jiminy267@reddit (OP)
Thank you all, I came asking one thing and learned so much more. Thank you all for your kindness.
zonaa20991@reddit
It is returned to the Duke of Kent. When he dies that title will go to the eldest son, and his wife will automatically become the Duchess of Kent.
We’ve seen something similar very recently with the Edinburgh’s. When The Duke of Edinburgh was made the Duke of Edinburgh, his son received his former title (The Earl of Wessex), as an Earl is junior to a Duke. The Earl of Wessex, while his father was the Earl of Wessex, had the title Viscount Severn for the same reason. A Viscount is junior to an Earl.
The next Duke of Kent is the current Earl of St Andrews, the next Duchess of Kent is the current Countess of St Andrews.
Should the Earl of St Andrews predecease his father, it’ll go to his eldest son, the current Lord Downpatrick.
Panceltic@reddit
Interestingly, it is a life peerage! This usually doesn't happen with dukedoms.
Significant-Key-762@reddit
I'm not contradicting you, however the last-but-one Duke of Edinburgh was Charles, not Philip. When Philip passed, the dukedom (under its third creation) merged with the Crown. When QE2 passed, and Charles acceded to the Crown, he became the Duke of Edinburgh (and Camilla, Duchess), until Charles bestowed it on to his brother Edward (the fourth creation of the title).
Panceltic@reddit
Yeah, what I was saying is that the current creation is specifically a life peerage, whilst the previous one wasn't (therefore Charles was DoE for a bit).
ODFoxtrotOscar@reddit
That’s not quite right, when Prince Phillip died, his eldest son Prince Charles became the Duke of Edinburgh, but of course never used the title
When Prince Charles became king, it merged with the Crown (as did all his other titles except Duke of Cornwall, which passes to next heir). From that point it was available to be recreated, which King Charles did for Prince Edward at his next birthday following ER II’s death (probably makes a nice change from socks)
SilyLavage@reddit
I reckon any new royal peerages will be for life now. It means there can be a defined group of 'royal' titles that can be recycled as needed, and helps to keep the royal family at a manageable size; it's harder to sideline a royal duke than a random royal grandchild without a title.
sarcastic_tortoise@reddit
Your second paragraph isn't quite how it works. The lesser titles still belong to the original holder, it's just that their heir is referred to as the lesser title "by courtesy". So The Duke of Edinburgh is still also The Earl of Wessex (and Forfar) and Viscount Severn, but his son and heir is entitled to be called James, Earl of Wessex as a courtesy (no "the" because he is not The Earl of Wessex). This can carry down the chain as well. For example, the current Duke of Kent is also the Earl of St Andrews and Lord Downpatrick - his immediate heir uses the higher of the two courtesy titles and his heir's heir uses the lower.
Loose_Acanthaceae201@reddit
Lord Downpatrick, we note, is the son of a son of a son of a king, and the most senior royal to be excluded from the succession (Catholic).
Significant-Key-762@reddit
Outstanding trivia, thank you
anemoschaos@reddit
There must be someone in the country who keeps track of all these names. They'll have a wall with family trees, underlined in different colours for deceased or divorced and yellow stickies for moveable titles. Do we have a Keeper of the King's Titles?
pjc50@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_Arms ; in Scotland, the Lord Lyon.
anemoschaos@reddit
Thanks.
MrBoggles123@reddit
Garter King of Arms would probably be the nearest official role. He's head of the College of Heralds.
anemoschaos@reddit
I'm not even going to ask what Heralds do.
MrBoggles123@reddit
Coats of Arms and other such heraldic matters. They keep records of who is entitled to have arms, what style they are and all that sort of stuff.
anemoschaos@reddit
So useful when you are jousting. You need to know who's who.
Panceltic@reddit
It's called Debretts
AlGunner@reddit
There is also Burkes Peerage, both claim to be the definitive record.
anemoschaos@reddit
Thanks. But I bet they still have a wall!
Spare-Way7104@reddit
The title of Duchess of Kent is simply the title of the Duke’s wife. The current Duke now has now wife (as she is dead), so there is no duchess.
FinnemoreFan@reddit
‘Duchess’ is (in almost all cases) what’s called a ‘courtesy title’ - a form of address given to someone because they are married to the person (almost always a man) WITH the title, or because they’re children of that man. Eg, the children of a duke are called Lord Firstname or Lady Firstname, but these are not ‘real’ titles, they’re ‘courtesy’ titles.
It might be helpful to think of peers as being like mini-monarchs - only one person (usually male) can hold the title at any one time, like a king or (more rarely) queen regnant. When the title holder dies, the title is passed on (usually) to his eldest son. All courtesy titles hang off the title holder, like the children of a king or queen regnant are automatically princes and princesses. And the wife of a king is (like our current Queen Camilla, wife of King Charles) styled ‘queen’.
Our late Queen was a queen regnant, of course. Her husband didn’t automatically acquire a courtesy title, he had to have titles conferred on him. (Though he was a prince by birth).
(I say almost all cases because I believe that dukedoms can in rare specific cases be passed down the female line)
Significant-Key-762@reddit
Philip was a Prince by birth, but not of the UK - he was a Prince of Greece and Denmark. He renounced those titles in 1947 upon his marriage to QE2, when he was created Duke of Edinburgh. In 1957, via letters patent, QE2 granted him the title of Prince of the United Kingdom.
RoyceCoolidge@reddit
It gets put on retention with the DVLA at a cost of about £80 a year to the British taxpayer.
ApprehensiveElk80@reddit
The Duchess’s title was not a title in her own right, but by right of marriage. As such, at present there is not a living Duchess of Kent. When the Duke of Kent passes, his title will be passed to his first born son, George Windsor, and his wife, Sylvana, will then be Duchess of Kent.
Had Prince Edward, Duke of Kent died before his wife, she would have been HRH Katherine, Duchess of Kent as that is the format of a dower title while Sylvana would have been known as The Duchess of Kent - but wouldn’t have the HRH as George Windsor is the Great-Grandson of a monarch and not entitled to a princely title.
TomLondra@reddit
WHO the F is the Duchess of Kent?
Horror-Kumquat@reddit
She was the wife of the Duke of Kent, who was the first cousin of Queen Elizabeth II (i.e., a grandson of King George V)
TomLondra@reddit
OMG you took me seriously. You know a lot about those f***ers.
caiaphas8@reddit
*was
Panceltic@reddit
There was no „Duchess of Kent” title, she was merely a female appendage to the Duke of Kent.
thesaharadesert@reddit
Pfffff
Yes, I’m immature
BobbyP27@reddit
The title was based on marriage to the Duke of Kent. It is unlikely the Duke will remarry given his age, so there will be no duchess until he dies, at which point is son will inherit the title Duke of Kent and the new duke's wife will gain the title duchess.
Responsible_Dog_9491@reddit
Who will replace Princess Pushy?
Effective_Nail_142@reddit
She'll stay married to Prince Michael of Kent, I imagine.
Geezer-McGeezer@reddit
It goes on eBay, highest bidder wins it.
qualityvote2@reddit
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