Why is legacy better than SWA?
Posted by Inevitable_Panda_999@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 75 comments
It's always "I went from SWA to legacy and no regrets",
"SWA guys come to legacy, but legacy guys don't go to SWA". Okay, I understand, but could you explain further with more details?
Lets say - same base, same seniority progression, no profit sharing, similar legs of flying
SWA gets 18 days off minimum as a line holder. Legacy is 13 days off.
Aside from the wide body flying, aren't you getting a worse QOL at the beginning?
CMDR_Winrar@reddit
My two factors are piece of mind (legacies are in theory more stable, SWA seems to be in a risky spot right now) and artificial seniority. At UA, more senior people bid to different fleets, so your seniority in fleet increases much faster. At SWA, every single bastard hired a day before you is above you.
The additional factor of never being able to do different types of flying on WB stuff is a factor for many, and a completely fair one too.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
Gloomy_Pick_1814@reddit
Can't go into debt when you only buy one plane and it's unavailable for years.
jfanderson05@reddit
They spent 4.5 billion on stock buyback in 2 years. They weren't going in debt for those aircraft either way.
Tman3355@reddit
Tell that to all the UA guys that were furloughed. Any stability in this industry is temporary at best. The current business shift is necessary in order to push SWA into the future and maintain sustainability. Stagnation = death.
Ludicrous_speed77@reddit
It’s not really better or worse but most people who applied and went to a legacy were chasing something only a legacy can provide. ie WB, international, fleet variety. Those who love what WN can offer them never applied.
MammothAd7334@reddit
Stability thru economic and industry ups and downs anyone…
sound-of-impact@reddit
I'm sorry where does that exist in this industry?
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
If anywhere, SWA. They have turned a profit every year of their existence except for 2020.
patogo@reddit
Obviously you’ve been missing the last couple years of reporting
SWA is on deathwatch
Veritech-1@reddit
The significance of also being a business analyst was lost on me early in my career. The stability of an airline is hugely significant.
kiwi_love777@reddit
Yep. Some people don’t want to fly a 73 for their entire lives.
JasonThree@reddit
I don't mind flying a 737 forever, I don't want to do 3-4 legs a day forever to the same mid sized US cities.
nopal_blanco@reddit
I can’t tell you the last time I flew 4 legs in a day. They’re easy to avoid if that’s not the kind of flying you want to do.
junebug172@reddit
You may be doing LHR turns.
notaplacebo@reddit
You don’t have to worry about that at SWA anymore
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
I have never in my life had 13 days off at my legacy. 18-20 is more normal. I didn't work a single day sitting reserve in August. I have worked 2 days this month.
QoL can't be beat at a legacy. Furthermore, when you get bored of flying the 737, you can go fly something else. All sorts of different types of flying. There's something for everyone. Unlike flying 3-4 leg days in a 737 for the rest of your career
VanillaCokeisthebest@reddit
How often can you change fleet?
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
Seat locks last 2 years but can be broken for a variety of reasons.
MJC136@reddit
Dude in the top comment flew with a UA captain that left for SW…
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
You got it backwards. He was a SW captain who left UA. And that wasn't the UA of today.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
Most of the pilots hired around the mid 2000s at SWA came from other legacies and military.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
Reserve days are not off days
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
They are if you live in base with an 18 hour callout.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
Uh no, they're not. You're on the hook. You can't make advanced plans, except for 18 hours out, I guess. Those are not off days.
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
If you don't know how to play the game. There are plenty of ways to stack days in your favor, make yourself unusable, and be on the other side of the continent snowboarding while on call.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
SWA guys don't need to worry about playing the "game" and all the tedious bullshit that goes into that when they can just get 16 days off on reserve from the start.
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
We also get 16 hard off days on reserve... so what's your point?
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
Wrong.
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
Hmm. Something must be wrong with my schedule this bid period, then.
Tman3355@reddit
Those who went from SWA to a legacy usually went because that was their original intention from the start. But I just flew with a captain that was former UA. They are out there. In general though, as others have said the main attraction would be to fly a different plane or to not have to commute. Outside of that things arent that different.
Cdraw51@reddit
How is commuting at Southwest anyway? I've heard it's different from the Legacies in that it might be a little bit more difficult, or is that not true?
Flounder719@reddit
I’ve been commuting for almost 2 years (basically since we stopped hiring in 24) and ive gotten probably 10 hotels total in that time. We have a lot of commutable trips and even if you can’t bid them you can easily trade into them at any seniority level.
Tman3355@reddit
I dont commute so couldn't really tell you. Our policy is pretty standard I think. You only need 1 option on us that gets you in 1hr before or 2 options on someone else that gets you in just before show.
Otherwise you can call in and they will try to catch you up to your trip.
Cdraw51@reddit
Sounds fair, I just remember reading elsewhere on here that it's difficult to commute in due to a lot of Southwest's schedules being either AM or PM centric, so it makes it difficult to commute home on the same day your trip ends if you bid PM for example, or commute in to work the same day your trip begins if you bid AM for example. But I could totally be misinterpreting that. Just some rando on Reddit after all
Tman3355@reddit
Oh in that regard yes you are absolutely right. Its hard to get a commutable trip on both sides. Although the redeye have fixed that and here they go senior. But yes the ams are too early to come in the day of and the pms are too late to get home the day of.
Cdraw51@reddit
Yeah that kinda stinks, not the end of the world though. I guess as you get more senior then that commute progressively hurts less and less, or you could just move to a base lol
Oregon-CFI@reddit
This isn’t necessarily true. I’m a commuter with and I’ve had to get a hotel 2 times in the last ~6 months. YMMV depending on the domicile you’re based at and the city you’re commuting from.
76pilot@reddit
Legacies just give you an opportunity that Southwest and other LCC don’t and that is WB flying. If they didn’t then it would just be the same.
The reason wide body flying is senior is because it’s better in practically every aspect.
JTitleist@reddit
Not to sound like a dick, as SWA FO I don’t really get this. I would bet we work the same number of days. Sure I fly more legs and read more checklist. But my credit/pay is about the same. My body clock stays only shifts an hour or two. I don’t need to burn unpaid days reversing out my body clock.
OrganicParamedic6606@reddit
Yeah, it’s better. There’s a reason it goes senior and you don’t really know until you know.
That said, it’s not for everyone. I bid out of it and back to NB
76pilot@reddit
I’ve flown narrow bodies and I never want to go back.
AirborneHentai82@reddit
United flies to Philippines for the passport babes.
Mike__O@reddit
I work \~10 days a month, one leg every other day. Sounds like you guys are working too hard
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
But how long is that leg
Mike__O@reddit
4-10h
Forgot to mention-- my trips are DDH, so the first and last "work" days are generally spent on a business class seat on the clock making full trip rig.
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
I’ll trust that type of flying is better because the majority says so but that sounds rough for me. To each their own.
Mike__O@reddit
It's rough due to the circadian beating. Still better than 3-5 legs a day. Before I moved to my current fleet I was doing 1-2 legs between beds and that was ok. The pacing was quick enough to make the work week go by quickly without dragging, but I was only ever 1 or 2 time zones away from home.
Bandolero101@reddit
UPS?
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
It goes both ways. There are plenty that went from legacy to SWA, mostly during the mid 2000s which is a period Reddit pilots like to ignore when it comes to discussing the financial stability of their company.
SWA is better in some ways (pay and quality of life are objectively better in their current contract), and equal in almost any other category to a legacy.
The only real con that is discussed is the lack of widebody flying. This also leads to the argument of artificial seniority. That is however highly dependent on the complexities of your specific situation, mostly your base. The undesirable bases (think EWR, ORD, SFO), have lots of “artificial seniority” because our reserve rules suck and nobody wants to commute to a NB in these places. There also happens to be a lot of WB flying in those bases, which means more options and the wealth is spread out. That may not be the case if you live in Cleveland, for example.
For what SWA lacks in that aspect, it makes up for tremendously in the kind of productivity that allows for more days off. Without explaining the intricacies of their vacation, a pilot with 5 weeks of accrued vacation is easily getting close to 15 weeks paid off. Their sick time accrual is incredible with no limitations regarding its usage. They also have a lot of flexibility in their schedule that we don't have at legacy. They don't use PBS, a bidding software that everybody agrees sucks and produces lower quality schedules.
Pilots on reddit tend to justify their own career decisions by trying to convince others of their own rationale. It's human. You'll see the same debate if you compare any other two career destinations on here (think all the threads that ask should I go to Delta or United?). You'll hear 100 arguments from their own pilots saying "go to Delta, plenty have left UA for delta and never looked back" and then the UA pilots saying "go to United, we had lots of delta pilots in class and they didn't regret it." I'm not saying what that either isn't true, what I'm saying is that somebody's own experience is very different from your own, and that leads me to my next point.
Widebodies. You won't be surprised to learn that those that are currently on wide bodies love them. That's because anybody with the seniority to hold a WB seat can hold at least the equivalent NB seat, and probably a NB seat with a reasonably desirable schedule. If they stay on it, then obviously they like that type of lifestyle. There are tens of thousands that don't like that type of lifestyle.
SWA is every bit as good and in some ways better than legacy. Check out this post for a comparison on career earnings.
Mike93747743@reddit
I work 12 days a month at my legacy…max. And sometimes my lazy ass drops a trip.
stnkbg1@reddit
Same. I haven't worked more than 12/ month all year, most months around 10.
RastaFarva@reddit
“Aside from the wide body flying, aren't you getting a worse QOL at the beginning?”
Flying a 737 for your entire career is the worst kind of QoL.
Tman3355@reddit
Is it though? I'll fly a box with wings if it means I can have schedule freedom and month long vacations. Quality of life is about life not work.
stnkbg1@reddit
I don't know anyone who only gets 13 days off. I'm super junior at a legacy and have averaged 11 working days per month.
Talking to all the SWA guys I know, their job sounds a lot more like a regional than what I do on the same plane. They are often doing 3-4 legs per day where I'm doing 1-2. They make more money, but I enjoy my job a lot more than i would there.
People like different things, and SWA is a great place to work for people who like working there. I think there are simply more people who want to fly different/ bigger airplanes on longer routes with crew meals and first class deadheads.
ropps202@reddit
It kind of depends on what you value. I’ve got no interest in wide body flying so the schedule flexibility is why I’m staying at SW. Yeah, upgrade times are long and I’ll be flying the same plane forever but to me it’s worth it.
Everybody always talks about how being a pilot means missing birthdays, special events, holidays, big games, etc. I’m 98% at the company and can still get any day off. Do I want to go to Europe for a week with no vacation? Easy, just got to move a couple things around. And if I somehow can’t through elitt or trading, we have the best sick policy in the industry. No one bats an eye at a sick call
hanjaseightfive@reddit
“Let’s say, same, same, same, same on some key differences.” Well you can’t compare apples and oranges if you throw them all out of the pantry now can ya? There’s what the contract guarantees as a minimum (say 13 days off minimum contractually as a lineholder) and what people actually get, usually about 17-18. It’s what your seniority can hold, and seniority has been going backwards slowly at SWA. Some of my buddies hoping for PHX are getting displaced backwards from LAS to OAK (or something like that).
And too many pilots look at what’s right in front of them (man I don’t want to commute to the junior base for the 1st 2 years) vs the big picture (yeah but xyz company has the most retirements of any of them yet to come, and my seniority and QOL will skyrocket).
Each pilots situation is different, but you should never be hyper-focused on the QOL-hit right out of the gate. Think of it in terms of career. Make a short term and a long-term Pro’s and Con’s list, even though no one has a crystal ball.
That being said, narrowbody life at a legacy and widebody life at any given legacy are almost like working 2 different airlines. I’ve never been part of a 4man crew with a dedicated bunk, but getting a 3 hour break in delta 1 is a cushier way of making money than anything I’ve done so far (apart from being contractually paid out for skipped trip coverage of course) When we taxi past all the 73’s in HNL, I can’t imagine bringing a 73 out here to the islands and then doing an inter-island penalty leg. Also you’re 60 y/o and this is the best it’ll get…. Long legs in a cockpit that 1/2 the pilot group can’t even stand up in. With no meals. And a nagging pain in the small of your back known as the Elliot Group.🤕
There are those that love SWA. To each their own. Different strokes for different folks, and if they’re happy then I’m happy for them. I’ll commute the rest of my career before I dedicate myself to the 737. I once drove 19 hours to my EMS base so 50min to LAX is a cake-walk.
Av8torryan@reddit
Because when their computer crash , they don’t loose track of you and the rest of your crew sitting at the hotel.
swakid8@reddit
Delta has entered the chat….
Weasel474@reddit
They don't have any software modem enough to enter a chat.
80KnotsV1Rotate@reddit
What a stupid take. There are many benefits, IT ain’t it.
longtimelurker2025@reddit
It’s actually not…
Baystate411@reddit
I dont think thats true?
Tman3355@reddit
Its not a guarantee. The minimum this days off i saw on this last bid packet was 16. Reserves usually sit at 15. But on average you get 17-18 days off.
Baystate411@reddit
In the busy months it can go down?
Tman3355@reddit
Yeah just all depends on the bid packet and seniority to bid more days off.
mustang180@reddit
It is true.
Baystate411@reddit
Nice is that new contract?
mustang180@reddit
It was pretty much like that with the previous contract as well, we just generally credit more with the same fly due to a lot of overrides we got in the new contract. We get 17/18 off typically depending on if it’s a 30/31 day month. Reserve works a couple extra days.
Baystate411@reddit
I did a 10 month sentence there and remember reserve was like 15 days off but couldn't remember what my consolidation line was.
mustang180@reddit
Yeah, reserve days only pay 6TFP if you don’t get used, so they make up the difference by adding a couple more days of work. But as a line holder, you’ll average 17/18 off if you just fly your line.
Baystate411@reddit
Nice. Think the same here in the slower months as a LH
zone_of-danger@reddit
If all you want to do is fly a 737 then sure they are about the same QOL and pay. But there is a reason WB flying goes senior. Better overnights, more days off, better pay, less legs, and on some trips I even get paid to sleep.
DepressedFoool@reddit
Whichever calls you first
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
It's always "I went from SWA to legacy and no regrets",
"SWA guys come to legacy, but legacy guys don't go to SWA". Okay, I understand, but could you explain further with more details?
Lets say - same base, same seniority progression, no profit sharing, similar legs of flying
SWA gets 18 days off minimum as a line holder. Legacy is 13 days off.
Aside from the wide body flying, aren't you getting a worse QOL at the beginning?
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