At an awkward cross-roads. Take the regional class-date or withdraw?
Posted by AnnualWhole4457@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 65 comments
TL;DR, I'm a BE-1900 type rated ATP with 2200TT, 1000+TPIC. Have a CJO at a regional, they're assigning me a class-date but they have a five year contract. I feel like I'm qualified for an LCC, major or private charter company instead. Take the class-date or withdraw and do something else?
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Hi all. I'm currently flying for a feeder freight company. Flying the BE1900. I recently finished my ATP. 2200TT, 1000+ Turbine PIC but it's not qualifying 135 time. I've had a CJO at SkyWest for over a year. They just reached out to me to update my records with them so they can assign me for a class date for November or December in the ERJ. At least that's what the recruiter said. Here's where things kind of start to get a bit messy;
I'm actively interviewing with [very large private jet company], and I have the second interview of three soon. I feel pretty dang good about it. I've also applied to every LCC out there that's accepting apps. I've applied to the big 4 as well. I signed the training contract with SkyWest because, at the time, it was inconsequential if I was there for 5+ years. I was barely at ATP minimums at the time. Then I started getting assigned tons of charters, making really good money from the charter bonuses, and flying a lot more transcontinental flights. We're even going to be flying charter cargo into central/south America, the Caribbean, and Canada shortly. It is no longer inconsequential. I genuinely feel like, if I take this job at SkyWest, it will hinder my forward progress toward my greater goal of a big charter company, heavy cargo, or a legacy/LCC.
I have some other concerns. First, I'm taking a pay cut if I go. I won't be making what I'm getting paid now until I upgrade. Secondly, I'm not hearing great things about flight times on the line or reserve at SkyWest right now. Reading other posts elsewhere about reserve guys doing 15 hours a month or less. I have a buddy based in Colorado that corroborated that for me earlier today. That is super disappointing to hear and I foresee being locked in under contract at SkyWest for well over 5 years before I can even upgrade at that rate. Can anyone confirm this here and verify I didn't just see a post and get a confirmation from the two dudes that happen to be getting a bit screwed? I genuinely feel that I'm competitive for pretty much every job beyond the regionals at this stage in my career and feel that taking the job at SkyWest will set me backwards several years because of the contract duration.
On the other hand, I feel like if I don't take this job, that I could be positively screwing myself over. I know there's a line of thousands of guys and gals that would kill for this opportunity right now. I'd be building jet time, crew time, and getting more experience at a "real" airline, versus what I'm doing now. I could be completely wrong and just falling into the negative nancy rumor mill, and things are significantly better than what I've heard.
I'm not going to pretend I have all of the answers. Things change fast in this industry. However, my gut is telling me to go a different direction. I'd like to have the gaps in my understanding filled in by someone wiser and more experienced to help me make the right decision. I'd like guidance from those of you specifically at SkyWest, Legacies, and LCC's on this. I just don't know what to do and everything I'm considering feels like the wrong decision. It feels like, no matter what decision I make here, I'm going to lose somehow.
Thanks in advance.
hanjaseightfive@reddit
“I feel like I’m qualified for a LCC, major or private charter company instead”.
Not to sound like a jerk, but you’re qualified for the job offers you’re currently receiving. As far as I can tell, you have zero jet time, zero 121 time, and you think a major will call you in this environment?
The most constructive advice I can give you is to pay for aviationinterviews for your actually preferred companies and see what the competitive CJO minimums are. SWA just closed their app window due to an “overwhelming number of applications”.
Good luck 🫡
BChips71@reddit
The question you have to ask yourself is where you see yourself in 5 years. If it's in the 121 world, then OO is the way to go. If you like charter, then go with the [very large private jet company]. If it's heavy cargo, you might be able to stay the course and try to get a gig with Kalitta or someone similar.
Respectfully, you're not getting a gig at a major with your current experience.
AnnualWhole4457@reddit (OP)
Honestly I'm not terribly picky. Me want get paid good for fly with okay hours. That's really it. I guess now's the time to get picky, I suppose.
In five years I'd like to see myself either a captain at said private jet company or captain at a 121. We'll see how this interview process goes. If I get it I'll withdraw. If I don't I'll probably proceed with OO. Seems like an okay-ish plan.
hanjaseightfive@reddit
A captain at a 121? Well, said contract literally guarantees that.
MeatServo1@reddit
Upgrade times at NJ are like six years now no?
AnnualWhole4457@reddit (OP)
Unless the person interviewing me lied it's about 3 years. I have many colleagues there that are upgrading at less than that.
That said things can change. I know that, at one point in time, upgrades were like ten years. I won't know until I know, y'know?
MeatServo1@reddit
I haven’t asked my friend about it for a while, and maybe he was being dramatic, but five seems optimistic to me. The days of majors and legacies hiring directly from MAC, berry, key lime, ameriflight, etc. seem to be over. Talked to the chief pilot of Alaska and he said he likes turbine PIC and types and knows single pilot cargo makes for solid pilots but that they want to see you get through a 121 program so they know you will make it through theirs.
TravelinMan787@reddit
I disagree. back when I was hired, plenty of new hires came from small turboprops. my buddies in hiring said the same thing even today.
lono13@reddit
Wait for the UPS application window to open again and apply. It's the easiest application process out there, no reason not to.
AnnualWhole4457@reddit (OP)
I'll give it a shot when it's open again, thanks!
LongBeachTrijet@reddit
SkyWest has a 5 year training contract?? How much if you leave before the 5 years?
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
Not pro rated 80k
LongBeachTrijet@reddit
My my, has the job market changed! When was this started?
TxAggieMike@reddit
The requirement for training contracts? Talked about for a long while, then about 12-18 months ago went active with SkyWest and Republic
LongBeachTrijet@reddit
In this business, 18 months is nowhere near “a long while” lol
AnnualWhole4457@reddit (OP)
$80,000.
Thats_my_cornbread@reddit
A lot of spirit guys are about to hit the street. “Competitive” may be a carrot on a stick.
Sommern@reddit
Ill let Spirit’s MEC speak to that end,
About 3000 pilots remaining at Spirit (not counting those already given furloughed displacement awards for November). This is the “panic” moment for everyone at the company right now. If OP isn’t taking this seriously, I would rather have Spirit pilots take their CJO and have a job rather than be unemployed.
KCPilot17@reddit
You're not competitive for a LLC/major at all. Charter/135, probably. There's a reason Skywest is the only one that has given you a CJO so far.
You have some TPIC, which is great. You still don't have any hours. The last numbers I saw for UA were north of 4,000.
clearingmyprop@reddit
He is competitive for Breeze which is a LCC. We are still the only LCC hiring CFI’s (although very rare but there was two in my class earlier this year) outside of cadets as far as I know. the TT in my class ranged from 1600-2300. OP has a fighting chance when our apps open again with his turbine time
sammyd17@reddit
Second this, got a CJO from breeze with ~1900TT and zero turbine.
clearingmyprop@reddit
Welcome aboard and congrats. See you in Akron Ohio or something lol
sammyd17@reddit
Well, I finished IOE elsewhere before they gave me a class date
clearingmyprop@reddit
Oh nevermind lol
zcar28@reddit
Side question about breeze. Is Norfolk still a pilot base or has that basically been shut down?
clearingmyprop@reddit
No it’s a base still, was really stagnant for a long time but they opened up some spots there and some new hires got it recently and some CA upgrades got awarded it
AnnualWhole4457@reddit (OP)
Good to know, thanks.
Surprised_Sloth72@reddit
I disagree. My LCC just started hiring 40 a month, and I’ve heard they’re looking for ~2500 hours or so. You’re close to that and pretty stacked with TPIC. Get your app in and worst they can say is no.
This is obviously a personal decision but if it were me, I’d only take the SkyWest contract if I have the funds to leave early and not trying to get to the big 3. Do also keep in mind the legacies don’t like to hire from their own regionals.
AnnualWhole4457@reddit (OP)
I've got apps out for SouthWest and Frontier. We'll see how it goes. Thanks for the info! So far it's looking like I'm just going to stick it out at my current company for a little while.
MeatServo1@reddit
You’re not getting southwest at 2200 TT. They clawed back CJOs from their last recruitment because so many more qualified people applied when it was open last week. The competitive average for southwest in their current recruitment is 8000 hours. You maybe have a shot at breeze or frontier, but unless you go to a 121, SIC won’t help your career. Maybe NetJets or flexjet would be a close second, but otherwise, you’re at the best spot already for career progression, QOL aside obviously.
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
2200 hours with zero jet time? You're definitely not competitive for anything beyond the regionals in this climate.
AnnualWhole4457@reddit (OP)
That's disappointing. I'll adjust my expectations.
TravelinMan787@reddit
there is no inherent benefit to the regionals. TPIC is gold, jet TPIC is king, and getting a jet type rating is really important for your application.
the most important thing for you is to network, network, network, and increase that total time. I just don’t think a minimum of 5 years at SkyWest is a good plan right now.
if this business jet operator doesn’t work out , I’d apply to other ones while attending job fairs to get hired at an ACMI.
this profession will be very different in a year? and locking your self into an airline for 4 years beyond that is not going to be the best option.
congrats on all the opportunities
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
If you haven't noticed, Spirit is asking their pilot group to take $100m in cost reductions to keep the company afloat. The LCC market isn't doing well. That's thousands of spirit pilots being asked to take a pay cut to keep their jobs. What do you think those highly qualified pilots are doing? That's right, putting their apps in at the legacy airlines.
Between flows, furloughs, regional pilots with double your PIC time in a 121 environment...I would definitely adjust my expectations if I were you.
That being said, keep your apps in. Have them professionally reviewed. You'll never get hired if you don't apply.
kiwi_love777@reddit
Seconding this.
Source- I work in recruiting
Working_Football1586@reddit
Honestly you would make a lot more money year 1 at NetJets than at Skywest. Hiring has slowed a lot lately but if you can get an interview it’s a lot better place to be.
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
If their time isn’t 135 that shows on PRD their chances of getting hired at netjets is almost zero now.
I was told last week I’d have had a job if I had 121 or 135 time on my PRD a they’re basically nothing anyone anymore without that.
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
You got TBNT?
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
Unfortunately, but I expected it.
I was told basically verbatim that the interview was fantastic and everything looked great, but I would have had a job if I had 121 or 135 on my PRD to show that I was capable of passing training and if I can get that and come back, I’ll have a job with them.
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
Interesting
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
Yep…but don’t worry…”hiring is still strong”.
disfannj@reddit
you think you qualified to be a an LCC? not with those times. no jet time and sub 2500 hours? no way. it was normal until recently to need 4-5,000 to get a spirit interview. throw in all the spirit and wisky guys and you are no where near competitive.
zone_of-danger@reddit
You got the update your hours and any notable update email today?
TravelinMan787@reddit
I'd withdraw from the regionals in a second. How much better is the regional compared to where you currently work?
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
Flying for alpine or ameriflight is definitely worse than a regional…
NonVideBunt@reddit
I think if I were you I’d ask myself what I want to do as a professional pilot in the next 10-20 years. If you want to end up as a Legacy/Major 121 pilot, then I’d make the jump to OO. Do you enjoy charter/ACMI/corporate then I’d jump to the large jet operator. Historically, people have had better success getting to a large 121 airline through the regional path and in this current environment I’d want the cards stacked in my favor. Do you know if OO holds people to the training contract or can you get out of it?
AnnualWhole4457@reddit (OP)
I don't know how OO enforces it, but I'm operating under the assumption that it will be enforced.
It's sixes either way for me regarding 121 or 135. I just want to get paid fairly well to fly airplanes to cool places with cool people, and have enough time off to take my wife on dates and vacations.
I think the plan I'm slowly building for myself at the moment is;
1.) Finish interview process for private jet carrier. If I get hired, the plan diverges;
2a.) If hired, withdraw from OO and go to private carrier for a long time.
2b.) If unsuccessful, move forward with OO training date and work toward a legacy.
The painful third option would be to remain at my current 135 and just continue building time toward LCC's and Legacies. The reason I want to leave in the first place, though, is the inconsistent QOL and the excessively long duty days.
It goes back to a comment I made on an earlier response. It's a marathon not a sprint. I just really need to be patient, I think.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Apparently you are in fact not qualified for a LCC or Major
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
I'm sure there's a furloughed Spirit pilot out there somewhere who could get a CJO from mormon air.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
And OP isn’t a Spirit FO so what’s your point
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
My point was...just because he only has a CJO from a regional at this juncture doesn't strictly mean he isn't qualified for an LCC or a major. While I agree that he isn't, only having one CJO doesn't really tell me much.
AnnualWhole4457@reddit (OP)
TBF the regional is the only application I put out until like two weeks ago when I dumped apps in every direction lol
illimitable1@reddit
Hours is hours and a job is a job.
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
The major airlines slowed hiring this year in case the economy tanked. Since the economy remains strong, I anticipate them to start hiring in earnest next year to try and catch up to what they did not hire this year. That is going to put a strain on the regionals. They are going to have to up their hiring and who knows, they may even start dropping the training contracts. Then again the world economy could tank and everything gets frozen again.
So my advice is to fly what you want and where you want and enjoy life as you go. Do not worry about planning your fastest route to your next job.
AnnualWhole4457@reddit (OP)
Completely fair. Thank you.
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
Competitive with no PIC jet time? Maybe for a LCC but definitely not a major.
Akbagger@reddit
I’d stick it out at your 135 personally, keep building total time while applying for jet jobs with no contract and good retirements. If the very large private jet company hires you go.
I had a bunch of 1900 TPIC and an ATP during Covid when no one was hiring except for some ACMI’s (I couldn’t even get a call from Horizon with 1000 more hours than you have). I simply stayed the course at my 135. I made the jump to an ACMI once the pay rates started to increase (it was still a big pay cut from the 1900) and was then picked up by a legacy 2 years later.
I had a bunch of other bonuses that helped like company instructor, four year degree, lots of TPIC, clean record, about 5000TT and a few LOR’s. Easier to do that stuff now than at skywest
AnnualWhole4457@reddit (OP)
Good to know. I have a four year degree with a double-major. They've been asking me to join the training department. I'll see if that's still something they still want, and I'll keep flying charters.
Gotta remind myself it's a marathon, not a sprint.
skylaneguy@reddit
What’s going to give you better QOL?
AnnualWhole4457@reddit (OP)
That's a difficult question to answer. When we're properly staffed at my current company I fly two days, one day on-call reserve. When we're understaffed I'm doing 5-6 days a week. 15 hour duty days. I do get a nap in the middle though. So QOL can be stupendous or horrendous depending on staffing. It's a cycle of up and down, with the worst of it being during the holidays and the best of it typically being mid-summer.
I feel like it would be more consistent at OO but not necessarily better until I hold a line.
kscessnadriver@reddit
Alpine or Ameriflight? Either way, even a regional is going to be a way better experience.
ce402@reddit
With all due respect, the OP is not at the stage of their career to be worried about QOL.
If they want to be at major airline, they need to be doing everything they can to get qualified for that position. Right now that means PIC in a jet under 121.
They are likely 5 or so years from being competitive for a major as it is, so the contract shouldn’t even enter into the equation.
If by some miracle they manage to get out before that, save those paychecks to pay out the contract and don’t look back.
Funkshow@reddit
Five year contract? Hell no. People aren't even married that long.
MenRest@reddit
PM’ing you
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
TL;DR, I'm a BE-1900 type rated ATP with 2200TT, 1000+TPIC. Have a CJO at a regional, they're assigning me a class-date but they have a five year contract. I feel like I'm qualified for an LCC, major or private charter company instead. Take the class-date or withdraw and do something else?
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Hi all. I'm currently flying for a feeder freight company. Flying the BE1900. I recently finished my ATP. 2200TT, 1000+ Turbine PIC but it's not qualifying 135 time. I've had a CJO at SkyWest for over a year. They just reached out to me to update my records with them so they can assign me for a class date for November or December in the ERJ. At least that's what the recruiter said. Here's where things kind of start to get a bit messy;
I'm actively interviewing with [very large private jet company], and I have the second interview of three soon. I feel pretty dang good about it. I've also applied to every LCC out there that's accepting apps. I've applied to the big 4 as well. I signed the training contract with SkyWest because, at the time, it was inconsequential if I was there for 5+ years. I was barely at ATP minimums at the time. Then I started getting assigned tons of charters, making really good money from the charter bonuses, and flying a lot more transcontinental flights. We're even going to be flying charter cargo into central/south America, the Caribbean, and Canada shortly. It is no longer inconsequential. I genuinely feel like, if I take this job at SkyWest, it will hinder my forward progress toward my greater goal of a big charter company, heavy cargo, or a legacy/LCC.
I have some other concerns. First, I'm taking a pay cut if I go. I won't be making what I'm getting paid now until I upgrade. Secondly, I'm not hearing great things about flight times on the line or reserve at SkyWest right now. Reading other posts elsewhere about reserve guys doing 15 hours a month or less. I have a buddy based in Colorado that corroborated that for me earlier today. That is super disappointing to hear and I foresee being locked in under contract at SkyWest for well over 5 years before I can even upgrade at that rate. Can anyone confirm this here and verify I didn't just see a post and get a confirmation from the two dudes that happen to be getting a bit screwed? I genuinely feel that I'm competitive for pretty much every job beyond the regionals at this stage in my career and feel that taking the job at SkyWest will set me backwards several years because of the contract duration.
On the other hand, I feel like if I don't take this job, that I could be positively screwing myself over. I know there's a line of thousands of guys and gals that would kill for this opportunity right now. I'd be building jet time, crew time, and getting more experience at a "real" airline, versus what I'm doing now. I could be completely wrong and just falling into the negative nancy rumor mill, and things are significantly better than what I've heard.
I'm not going to pretend I have all of the answers. Things change fast in this industry. However, my gut is telling me to go a different direction. I'd like to have the gaps in my understanding filled in by someone wiser and more experienced to help me make the right decision. I'd like guidance from those of you specifically at SkyWest, Legacies, and LCC's on this. I just don't know what to do and everything I'm considering feels like the wrong decision. It feels like, no matter what decision I make here, I'm going to lose somehow.
Thanks in advance.
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