It's all about engineering.
There's always a layer of diminishing returns with anything, but that depends upon your goals. Look at the price tag for anything that has a horse or a bull on it. What exactly are you paying for? Some of it might be the engineering, but it's actually the prestige. You can take certain Camaros, Mustangs, Nissans, etc, and fairly easily make them outperform anything from Italy, Germany, etc. But at the end of the day, it's still a Nissan, not a Ferrari.
Bang for the buck, yeah the GTD is impressive. It's built on such a small scale is why the price is so high.
We should appreciate it for what it is.
>It's all about engineering.
I don't get the "it's all about engineering" and "it's an engineering exercise" regarding the Mustang GTD.
Could you explain?
The GTD seems to be made from a lot of off-the-shelf parts. It seems to me the thought process behind this project was "let's take a GT500 engine, and connect it to a Tremec transaxle in the back for better weight distribution. And wide tires. Oh, the suspension doesn't fit with the Tremec in place? Alright, do pushrods"
Do you have any idea how much engineering it takes to fit a transaxle to a bog standard FR layout car? How about fitting in-wheel double wishbone suspension in the front of a strut car?
Saying “alright do pushrods” as if you can just fit pushrod suspension to any car, easily, with off the shelf parts, is such a crazy idea.
>Do you have any idea how much engineering it takes to fit a transaxle to a bog standard FR layout car? [...] Saying “alright do pushrods” as if you can just fit pushrod suspension to any car, easily, with off the shelf parts, is such a crazy idea.
They used the same subframe mounting points as the base mustang, they just cut a hole in the floor pan to raise the suspension components over the transaxle. Then reinforced the frame because of that hole.
Probably less
>Do you have any idea how much engineering it takes to fit a transaxle to a bog standard FR layout car?
You mean like how the Corvette did for multiple generations before going mid engine?
No, I don’t. The Corvette always fit a transaxle in a car… that was designed to take a transaxle. Ford is pulling a regular Mustang chassis off the line and sending it to Multimatic to have a transaxle fitted.
You literally can take a factory chassis and modify it to accept a transaxle, so indeed you can have it both ways.
🤣Calling someone “kid” on /r/cars when you get corrected regarding a technical fact🤣 That might be the ultimate sign that you are clearly tilted off the face of the planet. Might be time to ask yourself if this is really worth getting so worked up about. Or maybe you could get even more heated at me in your next reply. That’ll really show me.
Maybe, just maybe it was a simple question. Not my fault you got upset and assumed I was trying to play some stupid game.
But like a typical kid, the only thing you care about is trying to get fake internet points instead of just answering.
Fuckin joke lmao
Ain't nobody has ever written, "you mean like how..." and then asked an earnest question lol.
If you really meant to ask an earnest question, you should know that your tone didn't come out that way at all. It sounded like you were sarcastically asking a rhetorical question because you thought it should be simple to put a transaxle in the Mustang because the Corvette did it for a long time.
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Those aren't mutually exclusive things, there's more to engineering than simple, clean-sheet designs.
The GTD chassis, objectively and inarguably, *starts* as a standard Mustang chassis, which is then *modified* in accordance with the extensive engineering that's been done
It's more accurate to say "let's take a GT500 Mustang, and try to cram all the Mustang GT3 actual racecar hardware into a street-legal package" and they really did it. I'm not even a Mustang guy but this is freaking sweet.
They had to reengineer part of the rear subframe to mount the pull/push suspensions and slathered the monocoque with carbon fiber reinforcements.
Its a lot of PR honestly,Multi-Matic is the ones behind everything and what they do is pretty standard work when converting a road use chassis to race. Rally teams do it all the time with production models
Economics/business is part of what you pay for too, those horse and bull cars don't sell well, so they have to cost a lot, so they don't sell well, so...
A car doesn't just have to pay off it's labor/materials, but also all the money that went into R&D to make it. With low margins you need to move a whole lot of cars to do that!
Cars like a Miata or FRSBRZ86 are really miraculous when you think about what it takes for them to exist business wise - a niche car with low sales sold for a reasonable price. Doing a supercar-startup-of-the-month thing may actually be easier.
> Bang for the buck, yeah the GTD is impressive. It's built on such a small scale is why the price is so high.
I mean it's pretty bad value, the scale is an explanation for the bad value, but it doesn't change the value and it was their choice to do something on a smaller scale
I wonder if the GTD will be viewed similar to the LFA in 15 years. A bit overpriced at the time, not the ‘best’ on the spec sheet, but otherwise an interesting engineering exercise with some character.
>A bit overpriced at the time, not the ‘best’ on the spec sheet, but otherwise an interesting engineering exercise with some character.
I don't get the "it's all about engineering" and "it's an engineering exercise" regarding the Mustang GTD. Could you explain?
The LFA had interesting engineering because of its engineers had to invent a three-dimensional carbon fiber loom to produce its body and chassis components, and had a bespoke V10 smaller than most other V8s and V10s at the time.
Meanwhile the GTD seems to be made from a lot of off-the-shelf parts. Tremec transmission, engine from a GT500.
Regardless of its merits it will hold its value because they were selective w/ supply and who it goes too, ford GT's continue to trade well above retail
Why does a track monster have to break records?
It's not "mediocre engineering" just because it isn't the fastest. With that logic every car but one is mediocre, which is obviously ridiculous.
How is it a track monster if it’s not breaking records at the track? It’s 4400lbs, very heavy for a track car
Other cars can be forgiven bc their price
Not saying it’s slow. Disagree w the title of track monster + ridiculous engineering when the zr1 can do it faster at half the price and unlimited availability. Now that’s good engineering
You do realize your argument doesn’t make any sense right? There’s always something faster. By your logic, the ZR1 isn’t a track monster when there are also multiple cars faster than it on the ring with far less HP than it
But you also have to account for cost when considering impressive engineering. Zr1 impressive in terms of cost and laptimes
There’s also gt3 rs down 300hp vs the GTD and still turns faster laptimes
GTD is just meh in terms of engineering
You are literally coming up with your own definition of a track monster on the spot and deliberately downplaying the car when everybody who has driven it has praise it for its engineering. Can you be any more bias?
Bruh we’re defining track monsters by lap time and engineering by cost to hit that metric. Between the 3 cars, GTD is last using those metrics. Don’t know how much more objective you could be
Again, it has one of the fastest lap times on the ring ever. Are being deliberately obtuse or do you want to backpedal and say that’s irrelevant due to price compared to other cars?
glad we agree laptimes is a good metric for track monster. now let's include the engineering metric, lap times don't exist in a vacuum. Other OEMs are able to hit the lower laptime metric at lower costs/weight/hp/better availability. gotta remember this is about track performance and engineering
Sure buddy, you’re being objective by calling a car that had gotten universal praise for its performance and engineering and one of the best times on the ring not a track-monster because of some obtuse standard you cooked up in your own head.
if you look at this objectively, not's not a well executed car. 4k+ lbs, more expensive and slower than competitors, needs massive 325s in the front, has a 30k interior. meh
Cost is more a function of marketing and scalability, not engineering. The mustang is hand built by multimatic, the ZR1 is run down the same exact assembly line as every other Corvette.
Scalability and manufacturing is part of engineering. ZR1 designers had to make sure their bespoke parts can fit and use the normal assembly line. GTD designers shipped the body off to be built by a race shop. It’s a lot less engineering work to make small sample hand built tube chassis
This car isn't a "small sample hand built tube chassis", it's a completely road legal car. You can't say which car has "more engineering" because that's a nonsensical statement, we don't have a metric for "amount of engineering". I could argue a camry has "more engineering" than a Koenigsegg, but it's really too different to compare. Less extreme but same direction for a ZR1 and GTD
by tube chassis, meant the tube subframe they use to bolt up to the mustang body. The corvette team spend the effort to make the zr1 go down the normal assembly line to manage costs which is a good thing
Being required to fit on the same line could just as much limit engineering work as it could add to it.
If you want to get silly you could argue a bic lighter has more engineering than either of these cars, but what's the point?
you can always judge the end product- which one is cheaper, faster, more available etc. the one that hits those metrics id argue had better engineering going into it
lol how is that nonsensical. the sports car that hits their sports car metrics better most likely has better engineering going in, not that hard to understand
I disagree.
I think this is another cause of dwindling vehicle types.
Not every manufacturer is gonna be able to make 10s 9s or even 8s.
It's okay to be mid. Especially since they aren't gonna run it as unlimited production
From most of the reviews I've read, it's one of the best driving road cars out there you can buy. The vette was a touch quicker around the ring, but was also up 200hp.
This is a level of deep dive almost no other journalist on the planet does with this stuff. Such a good look at how this thing is what it is and why it's special.
Not sure why you’d say that. TripleShotPls is correct; I’m an engineer, and I’ve been doing the deepest dives of any auto journalist on the planet for a decade now.
https://www.jalopnik.com/an-extremely-detailed-look-at-the-porsche-taycans-engin-1837802533/
https://www.jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-engineering-behind-vws-electric-car-pla-1829257860/
https://www.theautopian.com/the-2022-ford-lightning-is-just-a-standard-f-150-with-an-electric-powertrain-and-thats-why-its-going-to-change-the-world/
https://www.jalopnik.com/the-engineering-behind-the-new-bmw-3-series-handling-1830257906/
Etc etc.
>Money does not equal understanding of joy.
Every single person I've seen drive one has described it as an absolute joy to drive, and these are people that have seat time in more cars than just about anyone else on the planet
And every single person who drives just about anything on track without having to cover any of the costs enjoys it because it’s driving a car for free, at least, or getting paid to drive a car, on a track.
I’d rather be on track in a mediocre car at a free track event than on track in a good car at an expensive track event.
And I’m not discounting it’s a good experience. I’m merely saying it’s not worth the price, is too heavy, isn’t feelsome enough, and lacks joy.
I’m not flexing anything, just correcting opinions with facts on a car forum. I could go deeper… engineers at car manufacturers are paid to be engineers, they don’t think up the idea to build the street version of the GT3 car, they do it. The people at Ford who thought they could sell the base GTD for $327,960, carbon series for $428K, & Spirit of America for $429K were wrong, because based on demand they could have asked more money!
Remember this car is not likely going to be the one and only sports car someone works their whole life for, it is for most owners the newest sports car they are adding to their deep car collection just to see how it compares to their 2025 992.2 GT3RS
The GTD will always be made fun of bc “it’s just a Mustang,” it could be much lighter, and it was immediately overshadowed by the ZR1. The GTD is still ridiculous for what it is (aero, suspension, + power) and will hold value for at least a 5-year window before we see a dip in the used market after no-sell embargoes end.
GTD is no doubt amazing, but this Mustang is not for everyone.
Would like to see GTD experiences using in future of Mustang. Since Corvette becomes RMR, there are pursuit fans still wanting FMR sports car. I think Ford could take that.
I'll be curious to see what they do. There's definitely room for something between the Dark Horse and the GTD in the lineup that fills that FR sports car hole. The question is whether or not people are willing to pay over $100k for a Mustang that isn't a limited special edition thing
I saw the Doug video on the GTD and instantly noticed the 325 width front tires. That kind of width just on the ***front*** is batshit insane for a road car, because it really wasn't long ago that some **serious** supercars were running those on the back (hell, I'm pretty sure a lot of newer supercars still run tires narrower than that).
I mean, the Cameron Z28 had 305s.
Basically, when you can't turn because the weight is in the rear and the car is *heavy*, you put big 'ol fat rubber up front- and problem solved. Note that fat tires on heavy RWDs is a *recipe for disaster* unless you know how to drive it that thang. Smaller front tires are often the purposeful, built-in safety net/understeer for many RWD cars.
Putting 300+ width tires on the front and rear has been a thing since the 5th Gen Camaro Z/28 came out. Gotta put wide rubber on those cars if you wanna make them dance.
Yeah, I know that stuff like the Widebody Mopars have 305s up front (and they benefit massively from it), but I’m not entirely sure if there’s a road car with wider tires up front out there. Just really wild to see 325s show up on any car, let alone up front.
> I’m not entirely sure if there’s a road car with wider tires up front out there. Just really wild to see 325s show up on any car, let alone up front.
325's in the rear aren't that unusual. The top trim Camaros (ZL1 1LE and Z/28) have them. Upper trim Corvettes (Z06, Grant Sport, ZR1) have 335's and the Viper has 345's.
The Lotus Exige S had 195/50R16 tires, but weighed less than half as much as the GTD (1,946lbs vs 4,343lbs).
If width per pound is an exciting metric, the Exige has 1mm of tread width per ten pounds, compared to the GTD’s paltry 0.75mm per ten pounds.
Exige 1, GTD 0.
[doug demuro's vid today was about the gtd and at 24:06 he talks to ford's manufacturing numbers. link is to the video at 24:06. ford says they will build 300-700 per year with no stated final production number. ford said they are sold out for 05 & 06 but dd thinks it is likely that being there is no cap on the number of gtd's made in 05, 06... that 07 and out may have more allocations. being the gt's came out with specials later in the production run, he thinks they may do the same with the gtd](https://youtu.be/rWacn--fnu4?si=Rpl0LZn0lj9kp7Zl&t=1446) i will take 2 please.
It’s a dumb car that’s used to help sell Mustang GTs and Ecoboosts. Nobody in their right mind would buy this over a Lamborghini, Porsche, or even a high end Corvette. It’s the “I’m not like the other girls” of supercars.
They'll buy it.. because they like Mustangs. The same way a Lamborghini owner buys a Lamborghini because they like them. When you're at this price point people aren't minmaxxing value for the money
Since you did not bother to read the article, "The Ford Mustang GTD starts off as a standard black Ford Mustang body that comes from the Flat Rock, Michigan assembly plant. This seems to be a surprise to many, who think Multimatic — purveyors of the fully carbon fiber Ford GT — essentially built a carbon fiber body from scratch and made it look like a Mustang."
It's a bit of a ship of Theseus kinda thing but there's a lot of Mustang still left in this. It's still front engined, they were able to move the engine a bit rearward with the transaxle but I don't think it's fully behind the front axle.
There are a lot of comprimises *because* it's built off a standard roadgoing Mustang, and they could have done a bit more if it was just a racecar or supercar wearing some Mustang shaped body panels. I think they changed just enough to get the absolute most out of the platform regardless of the cost.
If it didn't have the crazy suspension and transaxle, it'd just be like a GT500 with a bodykit and huge wing. Still fast as fuck but not nearly as interesting or actually good to drive as it was intended on road or track.
It'll be interesting if any of the changes that set the GTD apart would eventually make their way down to more attainable Mustang variants.
Yeah, I am looking at schematics now. Engine is not far back enough. It is kind of semi-mid-front engine, still touching the axle.
Regardless of power and engineering that went into it - thing is HEAVY. I don't know, every time I tried regular Mustangs from Ecoboost to GT they felt boaty and uninspiring and I wanted to be back to FWD Civic Si.
Oh yeah no doubt this is a very heavy car and it's crazy that it's probably the heaviest Mustang ever. But people who have driven it find it extremely different to regular Mustangs and even comparable to cars like the GT3 RS despite the weight difference. Would it be better if it was 1000lb lighter? Definitely but it seems to manage its mass better than a 2 ton monster should.
Much of that might be due to the multilink front suspension which apparently helps a lot with steering feel too. I wonder if Ford will put that on other Mustangs in the future as it doesn't require as extreme an engineering change as the pushrod rear suspension that needed a new subframe. Even without the crazy Multimatic dual springs and spool valve dampers it'd go a long way to removing the boaty feeling many complain about in the Mustang.
The Civic Si is an excellent car though and there's definitely something about a sporty and compact FWD sedan or hatch that's hard to beat on real roads.
Engine's in the front, yes it has a transaxle but it's an off-the-shelf tremec part, and the 'crazy' suspension is 1980s technology that was used because the Mustang chassis couldn't fit its normal suspension in the back because the Tremec was too big.
>Engine moved back to be behind the front axle
[No it isn’t. You’re speaking without actually knowing](https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/2023/08/031-2025-ford-mustang-gtd.jpg)
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