Is the job market really this bad
Posted by FinancialFollowing18@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 171 comments
I got my cfi/cfii this past April and I talked/applied to every flight school in my area and some across the country and got nothing. Also applied at every skydiving place in the state and surrounding states. Nothing. Even been putting in for ariel survey/sightseeing/pipeline patrol. Nothing. Is the job market really this bad or am I doing something wrong. Have just over 450 hours. What should I do.
ltcterry@reddit
Keep looking. Don't lose faith.
Get a M-F, 9-5 job so you are not broke. Instruct on the side.
Go do glider Commercial and CFI add on. Glider clubs are usually desperate for instructors. The Soaring Society was recently even offering some stipends for training. One guy in my club got one.
And yes, the market really is this bad. The last two years have seen twice as many CFIs produced as typical. And hiring is backed up all the way down to entry level CFI.
Last-Home-1037@reddit
Unfortunately the regular job market is just as bad, finding a 9-5 will probably be just as hard
earthgreen10@reddit
weren't tarriffs supposed to make it easier for Americans to find jobs?
4Sammich@reddit
The 91,000 clean energy jobs that have been lost since Jan isn't helping out either.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
About the same number of jobs lost in Jan 2021 when the Keystone pipeline was shut down.
4Sammich@reddit
You were so close. But alas, like everything that comes out of a MAGAts mouth from trump on down, lies. Easily verifiable lies.
https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2021/01/22/keystone-pipeline-jobs-lost-joe-biden-executive-order-cancel-fact-check/6673822002/
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
And as usual, the Libtards cannot think for themselves when to busy lining up like sheep to kiss Rachel Maddows hairy ass. Learn to do some real research and not get glazed over eyes looking at shiny sparkly coloring on the liberal play book. Idiots.
The Biden Administration’s cancellation of the Keystone XL Pipeline cost the U.S. economy dearly.
The cancellation eliminated thousands of skilled construction and engineering jobs. One estimate from the Department of Energy states that 59,468 direct and indirect jobs were lost as a result of this decision.
11,000 permanent and seasonal workers would have been directly involved in constructing the Keystone XL pipeline.
4Sammich@reddit
Ooffff. I see you are on a lot of bid avoid lists.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Actually it's just the opposite at my company. The libtards ( luckily very few) are on the do not fly list. Some guys take reserve to avoid them.
4Sammich@reddit
And I'm sure those capts are all 100% pro union too. The dichotomous thinking in the pilot community is astounding.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Unions suck, but a necessary evil.
4Sammich@reddit
You are pro workers or pro company. Theres no middle ground and people like you who vote against your best interests astound me.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Well, when the people are totally incompetent, like we saw with the last presidential race for the democrats, current, and potential candidates, people really dont have much choice.
4Sammich@reddit
Yes. The last presidential election was so bad. The guy who literally and demonstrably lies to you, Every. Single. Day. Who has done immense harm to the economic position of the US let alone driven the costs up and still going.
But ya. Her laugh.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
I'm not surprised that your response when you see your facts do not support your numbers had nothing to do with the subject.
Every-Lawfulness5278@reddit
Scary that we have ATP's with the emotional and political intelligence of 9 year olds.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
You dont have to tell the world your shortcomings. You would be better off not saying anything.
No-Fly-4264@reddit
Your argument is a bit misleading. You used an article written by a extreme left leaning author who writes for a left leaning "newspaper." No facts. Please use data from Biden's administration from January, 2024 and your argument fails.
CaregiverWorth567@reddit
you believed that?
Last-Home-1037@reddit
Turns out making materials more expensive for businesses makes them cut costs in other ways (jobs). Who knew
Bahahaaaahaha@reddit
Especially the kind of regular jobs with some flexibility with schedule.
healthycord@reddit
Yuuup. I’ve got a great career job at a fantastic company. I’m gonna plan to stick around here until I have an offer in hand to be a CFI. Def a few years away from that still (goal is 2030). Even then I may entertain the idea of doing this job half time and CFI in the afternoons/weekends.
sirtaxeda1ot@reddit
You can partially thank the over supply to aviation influencers selling a bill of goods.
Reputation_Many@reddit
It's mostly not the influencers fault, it's Boeing and Pratt and Whitney's fault. Not enough airplanes in service. When they finally get the 737 MAX 7 and MAX 10 certified then there will be another pilot hiring boom, not like the last one, but it will be fairly large. Then When Pratt and Whitney's engine issues get fixed on the neo aircraft there will be a lot more a320/21's neo's needing pilots also.
Mike__O@reddit
I doubt it. I think once those new airplanes come around, a lot of the 737 NGs, 757s, and older A320 family airplanes will get parked. There may be some net gain in airplanes at the various airlines, but probably not a huge amount.
Malcolm2theRescue@reddit
IMO it’s not the aircraft deliveries, it’s the market for travel. Airline traffic is Dow for several reasons, the economy in general, the fall off of “revenge tourism” and reduced international travel due to Trump making the rest of the world our enemy. Aircraft are needed less for expansion now and more for replacements. The airlines can easily push their fleet a little further with no impact on safety but an increase in mx costs.
Reputation_Many@reddit
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/passenger-volumes
The passenger volume is there. Airlines have pulled out of not as profitable routes because the airplanes are not efficient in those routes. The Max 7 and Max 10 fit a certain route structure which everyone needs aircraft in. There are hundreds of aircraft that have not been delivered that airlines have expected to fill a void (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_MAX_orders_and_deliveries) . Each narrow body airplane is worth roughly 6-10 pilots, probably towards the higher side on average. Then you have the older aircraft that they had leased or are ending useful life in the USA. Example: Southwest is retiring approximately 50 Boeing 737 Next Generation (737-700) aircraft by the end of 2025. That is one reason why they haven't hired anyone this year. No airplanes to put new pilots in. Every airline has there own numbers of aircraft they are retiring this year, but it adds up. I'd guess were 8,000 pilots short of where we'd be if Boeing and Pratt and Whitney didn't kerfuffle the industry.
Also most of these airlines cannot just simply push the fleet a little further. There are already contracts on the old aircraft, a lot of them are leased and thats the end of the lease period. Spirit for example. I thought it was stupid that they were getting rid of the a320 ceo's when they were having to park the a320 neos, but they were already under contract and had to go even though they could have used them since a large portion of the neo's were grounded. After I found out the reason why they were getting rid of the ceos I understood more of the picture. (https://simpleflying.com/how-many-aircraft-spirit-airlines-retired-amidst-bankruptcy/)
FYI, our economy is slowly going in a positive direction. The "low" jobs numbers are because actual American's who got jobs and people who were not in our country legally have left the workforce. Example not real numbers. If 5,000,000 people who were not here legally left the job force for some reason or another, and 1,000,000 new jobs were created that's 6,000,000 new jobs for Americans. If you look at job creation numbers in the previous 3-4 years most of the jobs created were for non-us citizens. I'm sorry, I want US citizens to get the jobs first over imported labor and so should you for the wellbeing of your country. I have nothing against legal immigration, I'm not a fan of illegal immigration even though I've got several illegal friends whom I wish I could do something to get them legal status here.
Malcolm2theRescue@reddit
Wow! Just get rid of the Hispanics and we can all get those great jobs picking berries and veggies, moving construction materials, washing dishes, flipping burgers etc.
Reputation_Many@reddit
No get rid of the illegals so Americans can do any and all the jobs. So your racists ass thinks only Hispanics can only do those jobs. Got it.
I did dishes at a restaurant first restaurant job. I mowed yards to make money. These are great entry level jobs to learn the value of money and why education is important. Doing a/c work is what made me want to be a pilot. I made more doing yards than I did flying my first 5 years of flying.
These are jobs anyone can do not just Hispanics. And if you talk to legal Hispanics they feel 100% the same way as I do. Give these jobs back to people who are here legally. Americans will do these jobs. You might have to pay more but it gives the youth job opportunities and teaches them work ethics and hopefully to pay attention in school so they can get a better job in the future. Better over all for the country.
Malcolm2theRescue@reddit
I’m a racist? I think thou doth protest too much. Also, I did all of those jobs when I was a kid. But the kids are not here anymore. The birthrate is very low. And if they are, their helicopter parents don’t let them work.
Reputation_Many@reddit
Your comment came across as racist because you singled out Hispanics as the group doing those jobs. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re not racist yourself, but what you wrote was easily read as a racist remark.
Low birthrates don’t automatically mean there are no jobs for young people. For example, the youth unemployment rate in July 2025 was 10.8 percent. There are still plenty of young workers available. The real long-term challenge is that, in 10–20 years, we may not have enough young people if the current generation continues to delay or avoid having children.
We risk a population crisis if we keep discouraging family formation. Importing large numbers of people who do not share or adopt U.S. and Western values won’t solve this; it can undermine what makes our country strong. I want immigrants who assimilate, embrace our laws and values alongside their own, and add to our melting pot. Unfortunately, not enough are doing that now, and a significant portion are here illegally. In some areas, crime rises when people don’t know or respect our laws or are so impoverished that they turn to crime. When they come here legally they are more likely to be a net positive on our economy and as a member of society VS come here illegally. Most of the illegal people are a net negative on society, sending money to other countries, using our schools, roads, etc without paying the taxes for up keeping those or abiding by the laws that keep those services in good working order.
The United States is an unusually generous nation. After disasters, we give more than anyone else. We’ll literally give the shirt off our back for others. But we must also look after ourselves if we have nothing left, we can’t keep helping the rest of the world.
This is my last comment on this.
Malcolm2theRescue@reddit
I like that you mention Spirit. They had lots of new aircraft! Still laying off pilots!
Also expiring leases don’t make airplanes disappear any more than the lease expiring on my car. I have the option to buy, re-lease or turn it in at which point it is sold or re-leased to another buyer.
PILOT9000@reddit
You guys are still clinging to this? Bless your heart.
MundaneHovercraft876@reddit
“Watch me copy a craft clearance in my PC-12 for the 10,000th time. I am a terrible person”
rudiiiiiii@reddit
🤣
melloboi123@reddit
Influencers try not to ruin every career challenge :
Hdjskdjkd82@reddit
I don’t think the influencers can be to blame here, or at least not all of it. They sure bring more attention and light, but even without them people have always been awed by aviation. I think a lot of people have been pulled by aviation since flying was a thing, but many people have always been deterred for one reason or another. I think Covid caused a big wave of people because a lot of people were doing something they didn’t like and Covid was a calling for a lot of people who previously said no to aviation because they weren’t comfortable with career prospects and took up other careers, and when those path got screwed up or they didn’t like it they just say “F it, let’s do it anyway. Follow your dreams YOLO”. That created a huge influx at my school, and airlines weren’t even hiring…
And then when regionals upped their pay, and people thought the industry was entering it’s infinite endless growth, all the sudden all the cons that deterred people previously didn’t seem so bad and the reward seemed worth it. Reality was actually different and that was only a temporary wave… that influx also brought a lot of people in.
Joe_Littles@reddit
The unfortunate part is that some of us were working our entire lives to make it. And while I got lucky and went straight to a ULCC, I think the path to a legacy is likely only going to get harder. I probably won’t upgrade for another 1.5 years or longer, and who knows what the legacy hiring market will look like. Often, I wish I could travel back in time and figure out a magical way to be one of those guys CFIing right after college in 2017 or 2018. Ah well. At least I’m at a major.
Maleficent-Ad6818@reddit
Holy enough with this aviation influencer circle jerk bs. It’s aviation, people are ALWAYS going to look at it as some dream job for any assortment of reasons. Just because there are crappy influencers that you don’t like doesn’t make it the sole reasons, much less any main reason for the current situation.
sirtaxeda1ot@reddit
That's why I said partially in my post.
ltcterry@reddit
Indeed. And the 2-4 year lag from "I wanna be-a pilot" to becoming a CFI.
Malcolm2theRescue@reddit
During the Boomer years, airlines in total only hired a couple of hundred pilots a year and the ones who were hiring were very low paid. PeopleExpress started Captains at $30K/year. Military pilots got 80-90% of the jobs at the majors. Mesa charged their pilots $20K for a Beech 1900 type. First year pay was less than the cost of the rating. The only job I could find was flying in Saudi Arabia which was a total shthole at the time but it was good money and largely tax free. So, things could be worse AND demographics indicate a continued above average requirement for pilots over the long haul.
ltcterry@reddit
Agree. The situation today is relative to recent history, not the "commuter" era of a decade ago.
I was offered a chance to interview w/ whatever commuter the school I was spending GI Bill money at had a connection with. The offered pay of $24k was half of what I was making teaching - wife, kids, mortgage. Couldn't afford that pay cut.
johnfkngzoidberg@reddit
lol, get a 9-5. The job market sucks across the board. There are more job seekers than open jobs. I won’t get political, but our country is heading for very bad things.
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
Tons of jobs out there for qualified people. What are your qualifications?
StevieBeani3@reddit
Yeah, if you are qualified to be a janitor, berry picker, or ditch digger, these are absolutely the golden days.
Get three of those jobs paying $7.25 an hour and maybe you can afford to fly an hour or so every couple of years.
/s
druuuval@reddit
No for real, I was a project manager for a decade, got laid off. I spent about 6 months being 40th in line for any open posting close to my old role. My certifications and credentials didn’t go away. There were just thousands of people let go from the FAANG companies that had more impressive resumes than me.
I ended up at an FBO while I finishing my PPL. I’m probably gonna end up back there or another one close to here once I get done with my CFII until a spot opens up somewhere. All I know is when the hiring cycles come back around, I will be certified next time.
AdamHenry86@reddit
This is the best answer here. There are alot of people expending alot of energy trying to get into a market that is saturated. Keep looking for a flying job, but your focus should be gaining employment anywhere at this time. The general economy is bad and the CFI market is even worse.
Perfect-Disaster1622@reddit
I’m going to auburn for their aviation degree (using GI bill) and they’re in partnership with Deltas Propel program and from what I’ve gathered it’s a path to the main line after spending some time at their regional (24 months minimum).
5MoreMinutesTurkish@reddit
Federal law enforcement has pilot positions most people overlook. DEA, CBP, USMS. Make 100k plus while building hours, dip at 50 with a pension and insurance, and then go commercial.
ShadowDrifted@reddit
Folks, you all need a lot more perspective on this industry. The last 5 years were an entire anomaly. Compared to 20/20, this industry is blessed right now, prospering even. Compared to 2002 and 2008 you could say the same. If you look through the lens of 2023, this industry sucks. You can't take snapshots like that. This actually is a very stable industry over the long-term, with some ups and downs. The hiring now looks a lot like hiring in 2018. And in 1998, and in 2010. To assume that you are a desirable hire with 450 hours Is ignorant at best, And some might hear it as arrogant. I understand, all of your friends hit pay dirt and got hired to become wide body captains at Delta with 5 hours of Piper Cub time and 2 hours in gliders... I joke, I joke. But I can tell you that having to work with some of these individuals now at a major airline as a captain, the level of entitlement is just downright strange. We want you guys to have a better career than we did, and I am absolutely appalled at generations that pulled up ladders on contract votes and on Union behaviors, but you have to understand that 450 in this economy is like 200 in the 2023 Time frame.... Keep flying if you want this life. A lot of us had to do the same. We are eager to have you. I might also remind you that you might need to look beyond your bordering states. This job requires some serious mobility and it could be time to start flexing that muscle early. Best of luck, keep your record clean, keep your nose clean, keep flying, it's the most you can do to prepare yourself to be in an optimal position when the next shift comes.
" The harder you work, the luckier you get"
Dear-Competition-772@reddit
Can’t speak for the flight schools, but I’m betting your Total Time is what’s keeping you from getting hired by drop zones.
The insurance for most skydiving operations usually requires 500+ hours to insure you. And that’s for DZs that fly 182s or 206s… If they are flying Caravans or other larger aircraft, they likely won’t touch you before 1,000 hours. Most of the Caravan pilots at drop zones are 5,000+ hour retired airline guys.
Some of the more sketchy outfits might employ you before 500. But you’re risking your life by working for those DZs. And chances are they aren’t listing you on their insurance if they do.
SSMDive@reddit
Not a single person at my skydiving company is a retired airline guy. (Maybe 12 pilots?)
They are all people who got the job as a LTP (-800 hours) and either are going to leave as soon as they can, or liked the lifestyle or otherwise can’t move on (no IFR, DUI… etc).
My home DZ where I fly part time has had about 8 pilots in the last 10 years only two of us are still there… One does not have his IFR and me and I just do it to help and play with the planes.
Dear-Competition-772@reddit
Interesting. My DZ has 4 pilots. 1 flys for NetJets as a day job, 1 is a retired AA guy, and 1 is a 10,000 hour CFI/I/MEI who just likes the lifestyle. And that’s a 206 DZ!
When we lease Caravans for boogies. The pilots they send us to fly them have always been 5,000+ hour guys.
bottomfeeder52@reddit
do the caravan skydiving outfits pay a lot? or is it enjoyable? I can’t imagine wanting to do that after an airline career but I haven’t really looked into the skydiving side of flying tbh
SkySoldier22@reddit
It's very fun but the pay is garbage.
SSMDive@reddit
Pay well? Nope. Pay is entry level job pay. 20-25 per flight or a salary around 30-50k a year.
Is it fun? Yep. I have been doing it part time for about six years covering vacation and sick calls. I used to jump so I like skydivers and the owner is a friend and I want to be able to help them… But turbine time is fun and power off 180’s from 14k feet is fun. Plus I got to do the other side of the DZ and have flown some epic stuff (like 900HP Caravans and Twin Otters).
As anything it gets old eventually. I can handle about three days in a row before I get bored.
bottomfeeder52@reddit
wouldn’t that be more like a power off 900?
SSMDive@reddit
Actually more a PO360. Jump run is normally into the wind and I pull power as the last jumper leaves.
I wait a few seconds to make sure I outrun any wingsuiters then turn away from the direction of flight the last wingsuiter claimed they were going and hold that turn 180 degrees… This is my downwind.
At about 8k I turn base and 4-6k I turn final. At about 2k I put in the flaps, 500 I roll some up trim to start pulling the nose up and land.
Whole thing takes about 2.5 minutes from power reduction to wheels on the ground and I never go faster than 120 knots. This is for a Garrett Powered 208.
PT6 208’s it’s about the same shape pattern but bigger and my speed is around 160kts (STC for the removed door limits me to 165). I have to make the pattern bigger since I need to start slowing down about 3k to be able to get the flaps in.
Twin Otter, again same shape pattern but a bit bigger still. STC limits me to around 150kts so I use 140. But on jump run I pulled the props back to course to lessen prop blast and make less noise on descent so I have to slow down to put the flaps in, then slow a bit more to bring the props back to fine so I have reverse available.
But all are just basically PO360’s… I said 180 because it’s a CPL maneuver and a bit of a running joke.
stnkbg1@reddit
Some of them pay ok money, but nothing like the airlines. It is a ridiculously fun job though. I absolutely loved flying skydivers.
FlyLikeBrick17@reddit
I’ll second this. It’s really fun flying and the skydiving community is fantastic. In my experience the pay is … meager. And in many locations it’s a seasonal gig. But bombing an empty turbine aircraft out of 13.5k as fast as possible is a damn good time.
Unable-shortapproach@reddit
The most fun i’ve ever had flying a plane. I flew the Caravan and i’d totally return to it as a side gig someday. I would also jump on my days off
idkausernamerntbh@reddit
This feed is scaring me
runnymountain@reddit
What town are you based in, OP?
mindless23@reddit
Show up with pizza and put your photo and resume inside on the lid
runnymountain@reddit
Bro should go sell insurance instead. That trick will sell so well.
IanMullins13@reddit
As someone that hires CFIs, this would make you stand out.
Tractorbambie@reddit
I’m definitely remembering that guy
Midon02@reddit
People hate certain flight schools and tell everyone to avoid them, I did all my training at one of them which has a pretty bad reputation on Reddit, yet I had a pleasant experience and I got hired by them less than a week after completing CFII last month because they knew me and was always a good person with them, long story short it’s all about connections, and also don’t believe everything you see on Reddit cs from my experience it’s been the opposite of what everyone said about this school
Tasty_Impression_959@reddit
Have you been able to advertise the services you can provide as an independent instructor?
External-Victory6473@reddit
Welcome to aviation. That's how the job market has been since the Wright brothers flew, except a few years ago when it was only hard, not virtually impossible, to get a flying job. You are in the mix with everyone else. Hopefully something will work out for you. You never know if, when, or how it will work, just hope it does. Good luck.
burnheartmusic@reddit
Have you not seen this same exact post almost every day on this sub?
Hazel-Beom@reddit
Hope you don’t mind me asking , how did you get to a little over 450 hours and just became a cfi. I don’t mean this in a rude way and im not a pilot or anything im just curious. Did you get ur cpl around 400 hours or did you just wait and build hours without instructing
SSMDive@reddit
I owned planes and only got my CPL at -800 hours because I was bored, needed a flight review and thought it would lower my insurance (it didn’t).
150kingpin@reddit
I’m not a cfi and have 1200 hours in 3 years solely from buying my own planes and splitting time with CFIs who are time building. I also do any ferry trip I’m asked. If you network and make yourself available to people a lot of opportunities seem to appear. Availability isn’t just flying, offer to help with maintenance or studying. Even if not a CFI it doesn’t mean you don’t have knowledge to share. I have young kids that I’m primary parent of and a $30k Cessna isn’t that big of an investment compared to paying for childcare
warwolf09@reddit
Where is that 30k cessna??? Please point me in the direction…. I only see 60k+ shitty 150s….
150kingpin@reddit
Facebook or local airport boards seems to be where better deals can be found. Be cash ready and patient. I paid 25k for an ugly 150 with 220hrs on the motor last summer from Facebook, and a better looking IFR equipped 150 for $45k the previous summer with a couple partners.
Hazel-Beom@reddit
Fair that’s actually pretty smart. Good for you man. Connections are needed in every field. I plan try and build some my self when I start. Thanks for the insight
MDT230@reddit
Because some people have money and rent planes for leisure flying. I have a friend who got his CFI at 850TT. He has also been flying since 16 and comes from an aviation family. His dad is a retired Air Force pilot, he and his dad have their own planes and his mom is a Southwest Captain. So there ya have it. Some people are fortunate.
Hazel-Beom@reddit
Sounds like a dream
Masterofnonn@reddit
everyone’s path is different
Hazel-Beom@reddit
Yup precisely why im asking. I want to hear about these different paths.
14Three8@reddit
I rented a lot and got commercial in the 375 range. Also I did about 50 hours in a part 91 op for my neighbor after that. All before cfi
PontiusThe-AV8Tor@reddit
Keep applying, further and further airfield to everyone and anyone with a plane. If it takes you 1000 applications and 1 year to get 10 responses and that turns into two interviews and you get 1 job flying a C172 for a traffic reporter then it is worth it and then you go and be the most diligent traffic /news pilot that ever existed until the next job comes up.
This is what origin stories look like. If it was easy everyone would be doing it!
Environmental-Block1@reddit
As the owner of a sightseeing 91.147 operation, I have to say, I don’t get NEARLY as many blind resumes that I used to. To the point where this last round, I had to start canvassing to get qualified applicants.
Idk if I’m buying the “I tried everywhere” (not you OP, but in general) because otherwise I’d see it in my inbox, or phone log.
I’m looking for CFIs with 500 TT. My guys usually get around 200-250 hours a year, and this year we are down 40-45% year over year. Check the aerial tour businesses. I’ve been a pilot for 30+ years, and I will gladly leverage my network when you’re competitive to move to the next level.
AngryZoomer@reddit
200 hours a year is pretty low
Imaloserbabys@reddit
What’s funny is that on TikTok All I see is Captain Steve talking about how they need to retirement raise the age to 67 because there’s a shortage of good experienced pilots
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
Lol I saw his video. It was basically him whining about how he has to retire soon.
He also said the FAA first class medical was "Super Extensive!"
Like anyone can pass a first class medical if you don't report anything or have a major health condition / diagnosis. I see 300 pounds airline pilots walking around the terminals all the time with a first class medical.
BlacklightsNBass@reddit
I have stopped trying. Then again I’m just a wet commercial single. Not able to blow another $40k on multi and time build. And def can’t afford poverty CFI wages. Maybe one day my crazy uncle will convert into a rich one.
No_Diver_2133@reddit
Get your CFI and instruct with your free time or on the weekends. Even if you’re only getting 20 hours a month, its a start.
ImmediatePath8153@reddit
I feel like i’m in your exact shoes, it’s such a shitty feeling. Even if CFIs made a livable wage, if this bottle neck is over in a year or two, I’ll have gone that long without flying. I can’t afford to rent enough to truly stay proficient, so by the next hiring boom, the freshly graduated CFI is more competitive than me who’s been job hunting for over a year. Ive been living at home to afford flight lessons w my girlfriend and we want to finally move out and start a family and I just feel like God is trying to tell me this isn’t for me.
BlacklightsNBass@reddit
Yep I have 2 kids and one on the way and my high income 8-5 is very much needed. I know we’d both cut our teeth and earn our stripes like everybody else before us, it’s just not financially possible. So I just pop on flight sim here and there and follow the usual social media types to keep in tune
ImmediatePath8153@reddit
Hey, at least we can buy a clapped out 150.
BlacklightsNBass@reddit
That’s exactly my plan in 4-6 years lol I got my ratings mainly just to say I could and live with no regret. Next up is to say I owned my own plane. The grandkids don’t need to know it was a ‘68 150. I’ll tell em it was a Cirrus
BiggieYT2@reddit
Job market rn is all about connections. See if you can have someone with some reputational weight recommend you places. I got my job because I did aviation-related volunteer work all throughout highschool and that organization fed me to their partner school
stnkbg1@reddit
At 450 hours you're not insurable doing anything but instructing. I flew skydivers at the place with the lowest minimums around, and 500 was the absolute minimum they could hire.
love_and_rabies@reddit
This is not entirely true. I got hired this spring at less than 400 hours to fly air tours and banners. Their insurance required them to provide 20 hrs of training which I did have to pay for. It was worth it to me since I've been flying around 100 hrs per month and the banner training made me a better pilot. I suppose there are always exceptions, but It does seem like 500 has become pretty universal, unfortunately.
MockCheckrideDotCom@reddit
Yes, it is that bad for newly minted instructors and commercial pilots, particularly those who don't have any way of differentiating themselves from hundreds of other applicants that look just like them on paper.
As others have said, do what you can to make yourself stand out. If this means going in person, fine. If it means attending local events and networking that way, okay. Just hitting submit on the 50th online application isn't likely to be any more successful than what has happened on the previous 49.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
But it's not any worse than at other times in the last 30 yrs. There were decades with little or no hiring other than small amounts for attrition. Airlines folded all the time and flooded the market with 1000s of pilots.
MockCheckrideDotCom@reddit
I think the issue now is more about the tsunami of low-time candidates.
My feeling, and I haven't looked at data to back this up, is that the number of flight training starts and certificates issued in the last 5 years is higher than it's ever been. The expectation for those people was that they would instruct for a while to build their hours and then go to the airlines at 1500, like was happening in 2021 and 2022.
As airline hiring has slowed down, the economy has too. Now significantly fewer people are in primary training.
There is very little hiring and an absolute boatload (tens or even hundreds of thousands) of recent grads who now not only don't have a quick path to the airlines, but don't have much in the way of instructing prospects.
I've only been in aviation for a couple of decades so I can't comment on what it looked like in the '80s or '90s, but I don't think you had the same giant upswing in flight training during those hiring droughts.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
And we won't again, and the pilots that saw an easy jump to the majors needed to do some research before going 200k to 300k in debt. You see it all the time on here, "how can I become an airline pilot the fastest and make 300k per year?" Some have very little interest in actually flying or airplanes, just money. I remember thinking I wanted to own my own an airplane, and other than going to medical school, I figured if I was an airline pilot, I could maybe afford it.
So money was a motivator, but the driving force was my love for aviation. It's the same reason that motivated me to continue and push myself to get another job (twice) after two furloughs. I see guys asking if 3,4,6 check ride failures are too much! WTF! There was no coming back from that years ago, and now it seems like people are willing to accept it as cooked into their career plans. Yes, times have changed a bit, but here we are, just like hiring has been before, tough to impossible.
SandslashFanClub@reddit
Unless you are a laborer or non-union tradesmen, yes. It's the worst kob market since the 2008 recession, and we aren't even in a recession yet.
love_and_rabies@reddit
My one year apprenticed to an A&P Mechanic was a major factor in getting hired to the job I have now (air tours and banners, started with less than 400 hrs). Just a thought. It can be frustrating, tedious work but it keeps you in aviation and opens opportunities. And they are desperate for anyone with a pulse to turn a wrench.
junebug172@reddit
This is a normal job market.
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
I mean the last time the hiring numbers were this low was over a decade ago. With twice the pilots being produced. So twice as hard to get a job.
stnkbg1@reddit
That's not true. I recently built a graph charting airline hiring over the last 30 years. 2024 was far below 22 and 23, but matched the previous high marks for the rest of that time period. If you ignore the crazy post covid spike 2024 was one of the best years on record. 2025 data obviously isn't in yet, but what I've seen so far is a lot better than people are making it out to be.
NakedRaincoat@reddit
This. The market definitely isn’t bad. Hiring is happening at a good pace.
However, I have heard the comparison that for new pilots it’s as “competitive” as post 9/11 or 08. Which I feel like makes sense. Especially looking at the civil airmen statistics and how many new CFI’s there are
redacted_post@reddit
Yup. In 1992 my first instructor was a furloughed 737 CA. CFI at a FBO was the best job he could get.
FarContribution6576@reddit
Yes I had to move to Guam for a job but not a bad thing for me as I grew up here. I’m enjoying being with family and living the island life. You might have to move in order to get a job.
Tiny_Cartographer512@reddit
All this doom and gloom is BS. The market just stagnated over the summer, it's picking back up. Once Boeing/Airbus start delivering and playing catch up... and Pratt gets their shit worked out the flood gates will open again. Right now American is running classes of around 60 a week and that's supposed to continue until at least march. 2400 projected/planned retirements over the next three years, mostly CA's thats a lot of movement, with just ONE airline. Just keep at it.
stnkbg1@reddit
OP is a couple thousand hours from any of that mattering at all.
FarContribution6576@reddit
If people move up then everyone below will move up too which means more jobs.
Tiny_Cartographer512@reddit
How do you figure that doesn't effect EVERY one below that level?
shockadin1337@reddit
Anyone out by CA i found this on Barnstormers it says it was posted about 2 weeks ago. Don't know if anyone has heard of them or about them but they say they're looking for people https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-2003793-Flight-Instructors-Wanted.html?catid=17266
FlyMontgomery@reddit
Is there demand for a flight school in the middle of the Mojave? Kinda seems like a tough place to break into the market
shockadin1337@reddit
No idea, just saw it while looking for an airplane and thought i’d post it if anyone was nearby. I don’t live in CA
vanhawk28@reddit
Also the Mojave area has antelope valley. Lancaster and Palmdale are pretty huge cities at this point. And not that far away is tehachapi which is not huge but still a decent sized town
stnkbg1@reddit
Right next to Edwards AFB. Guarantee there are plenty of guys working on base who want to fly but got assigned to ground duty.
Flyer1957@reddit
Note to self….if you can hang in a bit longer, called “eVTOL pilot” if you desire to go that route. I mention this as I consult to OEM’s on getting training platforms set.
Kitchen_Bat6436@reddit
How about being a Independent CFI - offer your services to students directly?
Bot_Marvin@reddit
Go in person. Dress well, stack of resumes, and hit every flight school in your state.
MadeForThisOnePostt@reddit
I just feel like the person who made this comment is over the age of 35….
carsgobeepbeep@reddit
Heh well I hate to break it to you but the Chief Pilot of any flight school you're applying to isn't exactly waiting for the ink to dry on their degree in Tik Tok Dances from the College of Online Zoom Meetings.
He or she probably fought in a war -- a real war, not some cowardly techno-bullshit war fought from an Xbox controller with reaper drones and DJI quadcopters -- and that Chief Pilot doesn't trust anyone that can't be looked squarely in the eye amid a firm handshake, whether you think they are old or not.
Future_Combat952@reddit
This. Exactly
Mr-Plop@reddit
In the words of the HR person who recruited me for my CFI job: I stack the applications of those who show up in person on top of the pile, we had someone come as far as a 14 hour drive
EsquireRed@reddit
Please tell me the 14 hour drive guy got the job. That’s very impressive.
Fearless_Barnacle_21@reddit
Or over 50
GetSlunked@reddit
So are most dudes running flight schools. In most other career fields, I’d agree with you.
MockCheckrideDotCom@reddit
And guess what, those are the people who are in charge of the majority of hiring.
As I just said in another comment, there is no shortage of newly minted commercial pilots and instructors. You're going to need to creative in how to stand out from the dozens of other applications that look just like yours. If that means hand delivering it to some old geezer, so be it.
Alone_Elderberry_101@reddit
I’ve gotten all of my pre atp jobs by knowing people locally. I still get offer’s for jobs years later.
But hey I’m sure not doing it works great 👍
Bot_Marvin@reddit
Aviation is one industry that operations on a glacial pace of change. I know a number of flight schools that don't even have a website at all, let alone post jobs online.
Whiplash2184@reddit
I second this. As a drop zone owner I get flooded with requests weekly. Your needs and the needs of the business need to align to a point where it’s mutually beneficial. Know your worth as well. I can’t tell you how many newer pilots are eager to get their hours and leave money on the table by saying things like, “I’ll even fly for free.” That’s great, but when looking for a pilot, I look for someone who isn’t just going to take what they can get, and will fit in with the dysfunctional personalities of the dz. Good luck!
Reputation_Many@reddit
Keep looking, I've got 3600 hours and still looking... As soon as Boeing and Pratt and Whitney get there act together (probably about a year) hiring should go back to closer to the norm.
Good luck
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
Yes.
According to the aviation interviews website, hiring is about 20% of what it was at the start of 2024.
theoriginalturk@reddit
Well you see those 20% that are getting hired they’re spending 8 hours a day networking.
Driving door for door in a fresh suit. Locking in their linked in, shaking hands, kissing ass
It’s all about the grind king, anyone who’s not getting a job is just a an aggressive, ungrateful low time pilot who thinks they’re entitled to a pre2019 hiring market
/s
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
I should actually correct that statement as it’s about 20% as many interviews being had according to their websites chart over the past few years. No idea what their hiring percentage is but I’m sure it tracks somewhat linearly.
I wish the sub would allow me to attach pictures in comments.
Retro_the_Jet@reddit
I’m at the KDAB Airport and open to time building, if anyone’s willing to split rental cost
Cessna 172L/M/P $152/hr wet 172S Nav II $176/hr wet 172S Nav III & G3X $192/hr wet
Air America Flight Center LLC at KDAB
snowclams@reddit
Love me some spook flying
limes_huh@reddit
At my flight school we follow up with everyone who applies. Of the out-of-staters who apply, less than 10% actually show up in person. It’s not very realistic for us to invest much time and energy into someone who lives across the country when there’s a surplus of people nearby who would be happy to have the job. It’s one thing to apply to the far away jobs, and it’s another thing to go in person.
Oh, and going in person might not even be enough these days. A friend of mine toured a bunch of flight schools in the south and most required 250 hours of dual given… I’m not sure how someone is supposed to get those hours without an entry level instructing job. Tough state of affairs. Keep the hope up and show up wherever you can. Be memorable.
plaidninja23@reddit
I have had the same experience. Things will get better in the coming year. Don’t give up.
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
Based on what
plaidninja23@reddit
That’s what my fortune cookie said
Comprehensive_Oil829@reddit
I was without a job for about two months after resigning from my last job (my lease was up and quite literally hated my life and QOL, living in the area I was in). I got on teaching at a school last week that I’m very fortunate to be at and I truly enjoy.
I applied to over 50 places, I printed out 25 copies of my resume, got a haircut and drove to 7 airports in one day, shook hands and handed my resume out while pounding the pavement the old fashioned way.
Funnily enough that didn’t get me any interviews by itself but I dialed for dollars and rang every school in south east Florida including the ones I met in person and I ended up getting 3 interviews and on the last one I got the job. Try the old fashioned way and I’m sure you’ll have some luck. Godspeed soldier
BandicootNo4431@reddit
No, it's just you.
And everyone else who asks this question.
My god, use search.
Thick-Stick-1747@reddit
It’s a marathon not a sprint, you’re bound to get a job in the future, can be tomorrow can be in 2 years
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
It’s a sprint because by mandatory retirement at 65 you’re making 500k+ so every year you are delayed is a half mil gone.
toraai117@reddit
You are 100% correct and everyone else is just coping. Every year you wait to get hired is one less year of your maximum compensation. For someone in their 20’s that is to the tune of +500k per year.
The couple lucky sons of bitch nepo babies I saw get hired at AA a few years ago will net upwards of 2-3 million dollars more than the average hire.
These are numbers that I ran at the time so it’s not like it’s a fucking conspiracy theory.
Yall just have to figure out how much risk you want to take on to help get you to your dream job.
For me that meant living out of a box and buying a barely flyable POS to get my hours
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
Thank you.
And yes, we need to be realistic and acknowledge reality here. Not try to spew feel good phrases to make people feel better about starting late.
It’s a race, and even if I get hired by a major tomorrow and make 20 year captain pay, I’ll likely never in my life be able to catch up to the guy that got hired at a younger age than I am now.
toraai117@reddit
Absolutely. I’m hoping to get to AA by 29. Compared to the lucky sob who got hired at 21, he’s gonna make close to 30 million dollars more just in his 401k.
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
Bro I didn’t even get my ppl til 29. I wanted to fly a jet by my 35th birthday but they won’t happen either. I envy you and your youth.
toraai117@reddit
Yeah I mean I just ignore it because this is what I want to do and either way I’ll be doing just fine.
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
Hell, even one year of year one regional pay would remarkably increase my quality of life right now.
Masterofnonn@reddit
That’s one of the stupidest thing you could have said to anyone ever.
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
Not really. Everything is seniority based in the airlines and the math checks out so delaying a year now has absolutely massive losses in the end. So not sure how that’s a “stupid” thing to say.
Masterofnonn@reddit
OP could quit and work as an average person making $20/hr… would you like that for OP?
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
That’s up to them.
Masterofnonn@reddit
You do realize becoming a commercial pilot doesn’t equal big money right away… right? It takes so much time for one to start making “serious” money… right?
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
Absolutely.
But the end goal for many is a legacy captain, which conservatively make over $500k a year. So every year in the beginning that you delay that is costing you $500k+ in the end. That’s not really disputable, the numbers are easy to come by.
Plus-Worry-1847@reddit
Womp womp
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
It’s a massive amount missed out on by delaying. Not sure why people won’t accept that reality. It’s ok to be honest and tell people not to waste time.
Masterofnonn@reddit
Besides, most pilots aren’t making that income, it takes lots of patience and time…
bottomfeeder52@reddit
50 more hours and you could potentially go to bethel?
Iflysims@reddit
Put some cards out at local FBO, online ads in local area. See if you can find a few hours here and there, do a BFR and things like that. Once you get over 500 and get about 100 hrs instruction time under your belt it will get easier.
Separate-Worry-3799@reddit
This is the part where you realize you should have done rotorcraft
JPAV8R@reddit
Calm the F down. Historically nobody was hired at the minimum experience level. Use this opportunity to gain experience and be a good pilot when you’re hired
Warm_Scientist4928@reddit
Yes it is. The post-Covid years were a once in a lifetime anomaly and it’s long gone.
Cute-Cartographer467@reddit
Also got my cfi/ II this April and I couldn’t find a cfi job either just a few months ago got a part 91 job all about networking and right place right time tbh
bentstrider83@reddit
Looking at getting my PPL(H) and eventually commercial helicopter training fine as soon as I get moved near some schools. Currently drive a semi as a regular job and don't see that being quit any time soon. Keep doing that until a transition is made.
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
Yep
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Yes
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I got my cfi/cfii this past April and I talked/applied to every flight school in my area and some across the country and got nothing. Also applied at every skydiving place in the state and surrounding states. Nothing. Even been putting in for ariel survey/sightseeing/pipeline patrol. Nothing. Is the job market really this bad or am I doing something wrong. Have just over 450 hours. What should I do.
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