Class Charlie flight violation - what's likely to happen?

Exactly this. He called ATC, they had a discussion, and ultimately ATC agreed to issue a violation. So maybe insist is the wrong word? Asked aggressively? Lol

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ATC doesn’t issue violations. ATC can inform you that there was a possible pilot deviation and can forward information to the FAA for possible investigation. As long as the other pilot filed a NASA ASRS, nothing would happen other than a conversation with an FAA ASI about airspace. ATC might also have just lied to get your pilot off their backs.

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AmoebaArtistic1384@reddit (OP)

I wondered about this too. I kind of hope that's what happened. I'm a relatively new pilot so I'm not super familiar with how all that stuff works (and hopefully never will be).

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cfipilotmichigan@reddit

It really won’t matter. The other pilot is almost certainly not going to face any enforcement action.

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AmoebaArtistic1384@reddit (OP)

Thanks! Coworker, actually, but concur - he's apparently had a near miss in the past, so I think he was primed to be upset about it.

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Altitudeviation@reddit

I had a near miss with a Piper Cherokee (me) and a Bonanza (other guy). We were both head down fiddling with GPS (I was anyway). I was pretty happy to be alive, so called it a good day and didn't complain. The other guy flew away still head down, so likely never knew.

Years later, when I worked with the FAA as a designee, at our annual regional training conference, we were advised the FAA had virtually no budget for enforcement, so they prefer to rely on "strong and focused advice" for all but the most flagrant violations. From the sounds of it, your offending pilot faced a pretty severe advisement.

Fun fact, the multi-million dollar penalties and settlements that you read about go to the Treasury, not the FAA. The FAA spends a million or so on lawyers and investigations and if they win, they get nothing but a busted budget.

Regarding FAA budgeting for safety and other non-essential nonsense, if that bothers you, call your congress person to give him some strong and focused advice.

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AmoebaArtistic1384@reddit (OP)

Wow, thanks so much for the reply! That's super insightful, and honestly a stern talking to is probably all thats needed 99% of the time. I know most everyone is just trying to be safe and have fun/build a career. Glad you were okay!

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voretaq7@reddit

^ This ^

ATC has no enforcement authority. They pass their ticket up the chain and someone behind a desk at the FSDO decides what to do about it.

You, as a pilot, can also pass your report on to the FAA (You are an Aviation Industry Member -> Pilot when you fill out the form, and you're reporting "an unsafe activity which may violate a FAA regulation or order").

The most the person behind the desk can do is a certificate action and civil penalty (fine), and if an ASRS report was filed on the incident they are precluded from doing that, though they can still have a conversation and require some additional training time or similar.

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theonlyski@reddit

As long as the other pilot filed a NASA ASRS, nothing would happen other than a conversation with an FAA ASI about airspace.

I am continuously shocked at how people misinterpret the ASRS protections.

If the agency has a source of information (like ATC which is also FAA), that data CAN be used for an enforcement action. The ASIs at the FSDO don't even know if you filed an ASRS report and it doesn't change anything when they're looking at a possible pilot deviation that came across their desk.

§ 91.25 says that the agency cannot use reports submitted to ASRS (except for criminal acts) for enforcement. If the report came from ATC, that's fair game.

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cfipilotmichigan@reddit

Correct, if it isn’t a sole source report, the FAA could pursue enforcement action. But submitting an ASRS is generally considered to be a sign of a compliant attitude. A compliant attitude greatly softens the FAA’s heart. They want to encourage people to submit them to the greatest extent possible.

If you show evidence of a compliant attitude through an ASRS report, along with a positive interaction with an ASI if called, there’s a near zero chance of enforcement action for a relatively low-consequence airspace violation.

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Trick-Ad-4550@reddit

Do you think ATC is the sky police?

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mkosmo@reddit

Even ATC doesn't actually violate them. They just report them, then other groups within FAA (flight standards) do the violating.

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DankVectorz@reddit

No, all we do is pass it on to the FSDO. The FSDO decides if any enforcement action is taken.

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SRM_Thornfoot@reddit

Sky Karens make everyone's job so much more fun.

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snorp@reddit

I'm fairly surprised that they didn't point him out to you, assuming he had a transponder.

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DefundTheHOA_@reddit

Your other pilot should stay in their lane and let ATC do their job

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AmoebaArtistic1384@reddit (OP)

Within 100 ft altitude, and they descended through our altitude, but when our flight paths actually crossed they were probably a half mile away.

Lol that's kind of why I'm asking - I can't change what the other pilot did and what's done is done, which is why I'm curious. I don't want the other guy to get absolutely walloped over this.

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Azcrf450@reddit

So at its closest, the other airplane was 2,500 feet away? Even under radar control it sounds like a non event. Obviously the other plane not having a Charlie clearance is on them if the FSDO decides to go to further action but pilots are still responsible to see and avoid in controlled airspace.

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mkosmo@reddit

Just remember, class C isn't positively controlled. You still have a responsibility to see and avoid. A missed traffic callout shouldn't put you in danger like that.

And for all you know, the traffic may have actually been allowed to be there. It could have been a pre-coordinated NORDO flight for all you know.

But worst case? A certificate revocation. Best case? A talking. Most likely case if it's not a repeat offender? A stern talking an a WINGS course assignment.

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randombrain@reddit

Two quibbles: you ALWAYS have a responsibility to see and avoid, and while Class C may not be "positively" controlled it is in fact "controlled airspace."

But the meat of what you're saying is correct. A VFR-IFR pair is provided separation services in Class C, but a VFR-VFR pair is not. Only traffic advisories and safety alerts.

So it sounds like OP should have gotten a traffic advisory about the NORDO guy, if not more. Not clear if they did or not.

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mkosmo@reddit

Fair quibbles. I just "feel better" when in positively-controlled airspace. And since Bs tend to be busy, it's nice to have that feeling while busy with something else.

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DefundTheHOA_@reddit

Ok that doesn’t seem too close then if it was half a mile

Your friend needs to chill out and remember that sometimes there are other aircraft flying

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Impossible-Bad-2291@reddit

No kidding. 100 feet below after descending through your altitude and 1/2 mile away sounds like your typical day in the training area...

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AmoebaArtistic1384@reddit (OP)

Realizing I totally verbalized the 100 ft altitude wrong in my OG post - will correct to seem less dramatic

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Frosty_Piece7098@reddit

Depends on his experience level. New private pilot, probably retraining with a CFI and verbal counseling. Me? An ATP with thousands of hours? Probably something more stern.

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TobyADev@reddit

I mean that’s quite bad of the other aircraft. But if they violated airspace then probably a word with the FAA, perhaps some training. First offence that is

File a safety report and move on. Not as if you were in the wrong here. The other pilot needs to pipe down a bit

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Dbeaves@reddit

Stop trying to ruin someone's life/career.

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AmoebaArtistic1384@reddit (OP)

I can't control other people's choices lol.

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Dbeaves@reddit

ATC talked to him. They decided to not violate him. Why do you think you know better than they do? Would you like if the same treatment was applied to one of your mistakes?

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AmoebaArtistic1384@reddit (OP)

Once again, perhaps you didn't actually read my post, but I am not the one who followed up. And if you read any of my comments, you'd know the entire reason I posted was because I was worried about the other guy getting in trouble. Feel free to put your righteousness back on the shelf for today lol.

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DudeIBangedUrMom@reddit

It's really not on you or your friend to make that call or "insist" they get violated. That's something TBD by the supervisor of the class C you were in and the FAA.

The bottom line is that there was no loss of separation. Really, the only thing they did wrong was enter class C without establishing communication. And honestly, that shit happens inadvertently all the time. Unless there was an actual issue, and it sounds like there wasn't, y'all are making a lot of noise over something that doesn't directly concern you.

I mean, it sounds like you were not on an IFR flight plan, so your responsibility is see-and-avoid, and there are no IFR separation responsibilities for the class-C facility.

You/your friend are sort of baseless in insisting the other pilot is violated, IMO. Let it go. It's up to the class-C you were in to decide if further action needs to be taken. File a NASA and get on with your life if it bugs you.

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Dbeaves@reddit

This guy gets it.

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ElPayador@reddit

Whoever is free of guilt can throw the first stone

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TuckNT340@reddit

VFR in Charlie? Still in you to see and avoid- now that you’ve made a stink about it you’d prob best toss in a NASA.

Realistically not much will happen to them. They’ll file a NASA and maybe get a talking to. Ideally that’s what we want right? Pilots to learn from their mistakes and not make them in the future… that’s how we get better collectively.

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AmoebaArtistic1384@reddit (OP)

For sure, that's why I asked. I never would've said anything, but now that its done was just curious what it'll look like

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flyghu@reddit

Within a mile of you? You should ask, no demand, to speak to his manager!

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LRJetCowboy@reddit

“The other pilot im my airplane was livid and upon landing, talked to approach control and insisted they track the other plane down and flight violate him.”

WTF does flight violate him even mean? ATC can give him a phone number to call. There is no such thing as ATC “flight violating” anyone. Did anyone die? Were you close enough to see the expression on his face? Your flying partner should just chill. Geez

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Trick-Ad-4550@reddit

He thinks ATC is the sky police.

Also...username checks lol

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xplanephil@reddit

File a NASA report and remember to wear a rubber:

https://old.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/w7on6g/8_years_ago_i_busted_a_charlie_airspace_and_im/

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helltotheno12345@reddit

Very likely to be very little. Retraining at most.

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AmoebaArtistic1384@reddit (OP)

Oh good! I know flight violations tend to be pretty serious, so I wasn't sure if the default was kind of nuclear

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cfipilotmichigan@reddit

Depends on the nature of the violation and the attitude of the violator. An inadvertent violation of low consequence committed by a violator with a positive, compliant attitude will likely result in additional training at the most,

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helltotheno12345@reddit

Nah. Unless you're a complete ass-hat and even then it's not nuclear. I remember a guy on YT (it's a pretty popular video) busting Las Vegas' Bravo and being a complete douche about it. He didn't lose his ticket over it.

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Ok-Selection4206@reddit

Not even that, a phone call at the most.

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Rictor_Scale@reddit

Your co-pilot did the right thing.

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Kentness1@reddit

File a NASA report and move on? Also. 100 feet is very much a near miss.

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quesoqueso@reddit

I got the impression it was 100' of vertical separation and a mile of horizontal separation.

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Kentness1@reddit

Yeah. A mile is close. Original post made it seem it was 100’ of total separation. I would still only file a NASA report if it was bugging me.

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quesoqueso@reddit

Definitely agree with close, even 2x 172s closing head on at a mile is like...15-20 seconds of time or something to see and react. Uncomfortable for sure.

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Gandor@reddit

Just file a NASA report and move on man

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DefundTheHOA_@reddit

What’s your definition of “near midair”? Because within 100 feet seems close lol

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

Myself and another pilot were flying legally in class Charlie airspace last night when another aircraft, violating the Charlie and not up on comms, got within 100 ft of us on a collision course. We took evasive action and it wasn't quite to the level of a near midair, but it was extremely uncomfortable.

The other pilot im my airplane was livid and upon landing, talked to approach control and insisted they track the other plane down and flight violate him. They agreed to, albeit reluctantly because they said they'd got ahold of him last night and he was apologetic.

I'm just curious what consequences he might face? Google was surprisingly vague. He definitely messed up, but I feel a bit bad about the whole thing.

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