Is this legal?
Posted by PlaneDevelopment1428@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 154 comments
A friend of mine owns his own airplane but also travels via the airlines for work. He has asked me to fly him to our regional airport and bring the plane back home. The reasoning is that he doesn't want to pay for vehicle parking, doesn't want to fly himself and leave his plane there out in the elements, and it's just generally faster to fly there than drive. I am not being compensated for this, but I often see remarks that the FAA counts flight time as compensation.
I know it seems minuscule, but I honestly want to know what the law states around this, and I cannot find anything in my own research.
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
This definitely falls under one of those "who cares" scenarios. A one off flight to bring your buddy's plane back from an airport is not something the FAA gives two shits about.
PlaneDevelopment1428@reddit (OP)
Yeah I figured as much, but I honestly want to know the legality.
astral1289@reddit
Legally the FAA considers hours compensation, so technically no as a PPL you cannot do this. Airplane owners do this stuff constantly and always have, it’s not against the spirit of the regulation.
If you got your CPL it becomes legal because the owner/friend is providing the aircraft. It would not be legal to go drop him off in your plane if he compensates you for it without an operating certificate. If you get your CPL there’s a lot of studying around these concepts.
Have fun ferrying your friend’s plane.
imitt12@reddit
Something I've wondered about regarding this: every once in a while on Barnstormers I'll see people offering their services as ferry pilots, specifically for LSAs, but not for compensation. Is that technically legal? It seems like typically that they are high-time retired pilots looking for something to do, which I would think would also not be against the spirit of the regulation.
craciant@reddit
I disagree, based on the concept "holding out" and relevant precedent. If OP posted on reddit "yo anyone want me to fly their plane I need the hours I'll do it for free" that's not kosher but in this case there is a bona fide purpose for the flight and the hours logged are incidental. I'm not a lawyer but that's my interpretation.
midlifeflyer@reddit
What's the purpose for the flight other than ferrying the airplanes (for compensation)?
UnreasoningOptimism@reddit
You're not answering the question asked by OP. In your made-up scenario you would be correct but that's not what this thread is about.
IA150TW@reddit
Just to toss kerosene on the fire. The FAA says that logging hours is a form of compensation. But, there is no legal requirement that a PPL log every hour flown. If you don't log those "free" hours are they still compensation?
greaseorbounce@reddit
This right here has been a curiosity of mine forever.
I'm way over the hours needed for..... Uh... All the ratings I guess now.... But I have no interest in flying for hire so I've never bothered to take the commercial check ride. I will someday when I'm bored.
But the point here is that I have zero motivation to log anything.
So if I fly a friend around and they cover the cost, don't pay me, and I don't log it, have I been compensated?
This happens a lot in the real world with my airplane. I take a friend somewhere we both go for fun (flight incidental) and they offer to buy the gas. Now yes I pay all the other expenses associated with the plane but by the letter of the law it's "flight expenses." If the fuel was 51% of the flight cost, can I legally let my buddy buy gas? Does it change if I don't log it? If I buy the $50 of gas but he buys the $100 sushi dinner on the beach, is that magically legal even though it's the same trip?
The real answer is of course "nobody gives a shit" but the legal part is fascinating to me.
The "logging is compensation" thing has always made me wonder 'okay so what if I don't log?'
🤣
Sure-Key-572@reddit
Someone below made a comment that piqued my interest, so I would like to take this scenario to its logical extremes.
If the issue the FAA would have in this situation is the "compensation" in the form of logging the hours...could you simply not log the hours and make this a legal flight? In this scenario, you received zero compensation of any kind -- it's his plane, he's paying for everything, you're just flying it, so based on that interpretation, if you don't log the flight, does that make it legal to do this? It's basically like the flight never happened -- you rode in the plane on the way there with the owner, and then a ghost flew it back.
I highly doubt such a situation will ever come up for me, but I'm just curious if that would actually pass muster in the strictest legal sense.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
well you got good will from him, so that's considered a form of compensation. I THINK there was an LOA that explicitly stated this (looks like it might be "goodwill in the form of expected economic benefit"... pretty vague really. if I think he might be a nice guy and buy lunch at some future date, sounds like that would count...)
it's a bit of an absurd reg honestly. just don't be stupid, don't be a sketchy 134.5 operator, and you're fine
Jolly_Line@reddit
I don’t understand. Compensation via hours as in logging said hours towards a cert? If not, you can’t just fly a friend around for fun?
Also, it’s insane how much attention was placed 61.113 during (at least mine) PPL training.
Kdmtiburon004@reddit
Compensation of flight time instead of money. You can fly a friend around in your plane all you want. But it’s not your plane and you’re not paying for flight time.
Jolly_Line@reddit
Oh, wow. Yeah, that’s hella nuanced. And insane.
Ok-Squash-7039@reddit
Are you flying from Lago vista to bergstrom I’ll pay - sounds great Really no different than shuttle ride Start a side hustle
ATrainDerailReturns@reddit
Legally this would be illegal unless you pay your pro rat share
Fly4Vino@reddit
The possible exception here is that flying the airplane back from the big airport is SAVING the aircraft owner money or he would not be offering you the opportunity. Therefore, he is not parting with something of value.
Downtown-Bite5598@reddit
It doesn't matter if HE benefits, it matters if YOU benefit. The FAA is whack, but it's the gubberment and it is what it is. That said, nobody is ever gonna pursue this for enforcement action. It's just too tough to prove......ie. For a young guy working toward a career, logging flight hours for the next rating could be seen as "compensation", for a guy like me, with 6000 hours, even if i didn't have an ATP, at 61 years old WHY would ANYONE consider my logging a flight "compensation"? For What? exactly? How do I benefit from this ferry? So now it becomes and "intent" thing....maybe age-related, very tough to prove but if anyone ever hears of the FAA pursuing a case like this (esp for an older/high time guy), please let me know. I wanna attend with popcorn and watch it unfold.
HipsEnergy@reddit
My thoughts exactly. You're doing him a favour, he's doing you a favour.
carlsonjma@reddit
Pro-rata only works when you have a “shared purpose” in the flight, like two friends going to lunch. Doesn’t work when the purpose is different. There are unfortunately both ALJ decisions and LC interpretations.
kayakmfer@reddit
You do have a pilot certificate of some kind, right? That wasn't mentioned in the description. What certificate, what plane?
Fit_Rise1258@reddit
I agree with this sentiment, but the "who cares" pool of people grows exponentially when there is an incident or accident. Look up the Mark Strub accident in Wisconsin Rapids, WI (2008). He was giving rides for free, except one person insisted on giving a small "donation" of $8, which after the accident caused the FAA to come after him for that, as well as the other things that actually contributed to the crash. Just something to consider.
Altitudeviation@reddit
Well, it's Who Cares? until something happens. Then it becomes a contributing factor in the accident investigation report.
Generally speaking, when you begin ignoring the little rules in aviation, you're setting yourself up for a bigger rule being ignored with substantial consequences.
In this case, I'm not sure it's a violation as the niggling details may make lawyers rich and provide no clear answers. Maybe if you chip in for some fuel, you'll be unquestionably free and clear, "pro rata expenses", and all that.
But that's just my opinion, as a long retired FAA Designee. You get to make your own decisions.
Best of luck to you, try not to kill anyone.
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
No one is "ignoring the little rules." The FAA's intent with this rule is to protect the flying public from non-certificated charter operations - aka sleazy pilots and operators.
Flying your buddy's airplane back from an airport so he doesn't have to pay for parking is in no way, shape, or form, an issue. It happens every day.
This isn't normalization of deviation, this is simply common sense.
craciant@reddit
Assuming mom writes a check, make sure the memo says "for dinner" rather than part "134.5 charter"
In OPs case, it's not even a grey area. 100% legal. Flight in furtherance of a business is a Private pilot privilege. You are doing your friend a favor by flying him there and a second favor by returning the plane to the hangar. You are not being compensated. The flight time you accrue is incidental to exercising your private pilot privileges for a bona fide mission.
Downtown-Bite5598@reddit
This is not true. Flying in "furtherance of a business" is absolutely a PPL privilege, and it is also a statement 100% taken out of context.
What the FAA has clarified regarding that, is that you are completely legal to fly YOUR plane, even with pax that might be your employees and/or colleagues onboard. NOT to fly someone else's plane in furtherance of THEIR business.
Please don't provide advice if you're not grounded in the FARs. NOT because I think OP would ever get caught up in enforcement of this (it's a very remote possibility), but because, should he follow your advice and get bit, you'd be responsible. And hiding behind REDDIT anonymity doesn't help him or your long-term guilt.
Why-R-People-So-Dumb@reddit
Finally someone who isn't caught by the dragnet of complicated BS surrounding this. The confusion by this is entirely created by DPEs trying to screw with people. There is nothing wrong with flying around in your friend's plane with or without your friend. The FAA doesn't want the flying public to have a misguided belief that that a PPL holds the same standards as a commercial flight...that's it.
There are two clear potential problems that everyone conflates, holding out and pro rata share. If there is no holding out then incidental compensation from getting to fly his plane for free doesn't matter. If there is no exchange of money on the trip then the tests for pro rata share are also irrelevant.
AC 61-142 has examples clear as day where it acknowledges that a flight can be done even without a common purpose, just that no expense sharing may take place. People seem to think if it fails the common purpose test then you can't do the flight, and that's just incorrect:
OP is taking the flight to help a friend and would do it even if the hours didn't count.
It doesn't say you cannot do the flight, you just can't share expenses. OP should probably technically fill the tanks if someone is watching over their shoulder 🙄.
This very clearly does not say the flight cannot be legally conducted just that expense sharing cannot take place. This also clearly lays out a path with the pilot getting incidental flight hours flying all the way back and forth on a second trip where they may not receive compensation.
The bit about flight time as compensation is really only relevant specifically in reference to holding out. They are trying to say advertising to people that you will take them anywhere they want to go, even if you don't collect money, doesn't mean you weren't compensated for the flight that you offered to the general public.
The pilot's friend clearly does not assume OP has met higher regulatory requirements to carry passengers.
Trick-Ad-4550@reddit
Incorrect. This is not a flight in furtherance of a business. OP has absolutely no connection to said business.
What you're referring to is being reimbursed by your employer for using a personal airplane to travel to a work function, like a conference. And only if you aren't carrying passengers.
midlifeflyer@reddit
Yes, the FAA considers flight time as compensation. But the Chief Counsel opinion that says so, also says that the value is in the logging, so if you don't log it, you are good. That part is on the last page of the letter. https://www.faa.gov/media/16071 And yes, that is weird.
It's tempting so say, "who cares?" That's probably right, but since ignorance is not a defense, it's usually a good idea to understand a rule before deciding it's OK to break it.
pisymbol@reddit
I just put your post through ChatGPT and asked it to summarize. Really interesting response:
"This post is about a friend who works for an airline and happens to be going to an airport the original poster has always wanted to land at. The original poster and good friend found that mutually convenient. Not only that, but the original poster needs practice to keep current so while his friend at work, he is going to do a few practice approaches and then get an IPC on the way back with his friend who happens to also be a CFII."
Wild.
Double-Ad9382@reddit
I appreciated the humor lol.
74_Jeep_Cherokee@reddit
Is it shut the fuck up Friday already?
14Three8@reddit
It’s only tattle on yourself tuesday
HuthS0lo@reddit
Its only Monday I'm affraid.
scul86@reddit
Sooo... Mute Monday?
Weasel474@reddit
What do you do if you take your parents for a celebratory flight after passing your PPL and they pay for everything? That's right, you shut the fuck up.
lil_layne@reddit
Just like you tell your AME you have never been sad for a day in your life
craciant@reddit
Never so much as stubbed my toe.
FujitsuPolycom@reddit
I already turned OP in.
Jk.
Won't be so nice next time!
Sock_Eating_Golden@reddit
https://youtu.be/6EI_RYIEtrg?si=Ii2pyTTvPWfrxsSZ
This presentation explains WHY it's Shut the Fuck Up Friday. Anything you say "Can and will be used against you." Nothing you say will help you. I'm former Law Enforcement. Do not talk to police.
https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE?si=-tEVPa62773hffOG
FujitsuPolycom@reddit
You must get pretty lonely... oh crap
PlaneDevelopment1428@reddit (OP)
That dudes videos are funny AF
pokerpaul12@reddit
Don t you have to have a license to fly a airplane
No_Bother7541@reddit
Insurance games with nasty prizes.
SalesAndMarketing202@reddit
You can't just let me your friend use your plane or ask him to fly it for you? The hell.
Middle_Ad8616@reddit
It’s called “common purpose”. If you two don’t have a common purpose then legally, no, you can’t do this.
Standard_Gur30@reddit
I once drove a friend’s car from one airport to another for them, and I don’t have a CDL. Never got in trouble.
Thedoc_tv@reddit
Nope, it's illegal and I will turn you in RN. Seriously though, who cares. Just do it and tell nothing to no one
Would4e@reddit
Everyone is way off. The question is do you have a commercial pilot certificate? You did not mention that part. If you do it's fine. If you don't it's not.
It has nothing to do with "holding out" or illegal charter because he owns the aircraft and is perfectly within his rights to hire a commercial pilot to fly it for him. If you're not a commercial pilot and he's not paying you then you should be at least paying for the fuel.
NextDoorSux@reddit
FAA doesn't care about this kind of stuff unless they would have absolutely nothing else to do with their time. They also likely wouldn't know unless someone is posting it to Reddit asking it it was legal.
dilemmaprisoner@reddit
The whole idea that the hours count as compensation would be easy to challenge.
Think of two similar scenarios, like OP above where it's been said to possibly be compensation by hours. The only difference between the two scenarios is the pilot:
1) Young pilot specifically spending most of their flying hours trying to build to 1500
2) Old guy like me. Recent PPL, will only fly for fun forever.
There was ruling where #2 does not count as any kind of compensation, since he's not building hours. What's the difference between the 2 scenarios? The HOPES and DREAMS of the two pilots. Any law which basis is the thoughts, hopes, and dreams of the pilot should be pretty easy to throw out.
So your defense? "I was only doing that flight for fun." It would have been improper not to log the hours.
warwolf09@reddit
I would be more worried about insurance than anything else… i don’t think nobody would care if did that flight. Give your friend 10 bucks for gas and rental. Get a receipt! Now everything is legal
TempusFugit2020@reddit
I haven't read through all the replies, but I'm guessing it will fall to:
Become a Pilot; Learn to Split Hairs 🤣
Lopsided-Bench-1347@reddit
It seems from the various interpretations that if an airplane owner lets you use his plane for free just to keep it flying as the owner can no longer fly (happens a LOT in Florida and Arizona ) it for any other reasons ; it would be illegal for you to fly.
_Und3rsc0re_@reddit
Tangentially related to the topic at hand, does anyone know why is rule exists? Is it just to force people to get Commercial or ATP? Like, it doesnt exist in other countries AFAIK so did something happen to make the FAA implement this rule?
nascent_aviator@reddit
The rule that pilots can't fly for compensation without a commercial cert? That's the norm worldwide.
_Und3rsc0re_@reddit
Oh, is it? I think I'm mixing it up with the US ATP requirements. Even still, im still curious why that rule was implemented
TobyADev@reddit
I suspect this is one of those “will the authority care” with the answer very swiftly being “no”. Do what you will, with that
artificielstupidite@reddit
Free or even reduced cost flight time is compensation. There is no ambiguity from the FAA regarding their stance on this. Private pilots cannot act as PIC for compensation. The only exceptions are spelled out quite clearly in 61.113.
PlaneDevelopment1428@reddit (OP)
I don't agree that 61.113 fits this scenario. It's not for a business, and I am not for hire.
nascent_aviator@reddit
You'd be acting as PIC for compensation. There's really nothing ambiguous here.
PlaneDevelopment1428@reddit (OP)
I am not receiving compensation.
nascent_aviator@reddit
In the eyes of the FAA, you are receiving free flight time in return for ferrying a plane. i.e. something of value in return for a service. Compensation.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
So dont log it. Just move the airplane.
nascent_aviator@reddit
Not clear if that makes it legal. If I'm paid to do a flight, does it become legal if I throw the cash in the dumpster afterwards?
the_silent_redditor@reddit
What dumpster?
nascent_aviator@reddit
The FAA-certified dumpster, of course.
Cherokee260@reddit
Flight time IS compensation. You’re not listening to what folks are telling you.
PlaneDevelopment1428@reddit (OP)
So if I pay for the gas, I am g2g.
Cherokee260@reddit
You need to pay the pro rata share. And it doesn’t matter whether or not you’re doing it to timebuild, the logging of hours is evidence of compensation. Those can be counted towards currency, insurance mins, future ratings, etc.
nascent_aviator@reddit
A pro rata share is not a safe harbor. It's the minimum you need to pay even if one of the compensation exceptions apply. If none of them apply, you need to pay for all the costs of the flight.
In any case, the pro rata share of the ferry flight back would be the whole cost lol.
Cherokee260@reddit
Yeah, it’s just that OP is describing one leg where a pro rata share is acceptable while the other needs to be completely self-funded.
nascent_aviator@reddit
I refer to 61.113(c) (emphasis mine):
If you don't have passengers, this does not apply wholesale. If you fall under one of the exceptions to 61.113 there is no problem being reimbursed for the full cost.
EternallyMustached@reddit
I think the issue here is that you're providing a service, which is not a privilege of a PPL.
JadedJared@reddit
My private pilot friend flies rescue dogs for a non-profit organization. He’s providing a service. Is he breaking the law?
Cherokee260@reddit
See 61.113(d)
nascent_aviator@reddit
Probably not relevant as only applies to flights that begin and end at the same airport.
Cherokee260@reddit
Are you referring to the stipulation in 91.146(b)? That is describing a specific situation where lower requirements are allowable.
nascent_aviator@reddit
The wording in 61.113(d) is:
The specific situation where lower requirements are described is the only "flight described in § 91.146."
Cherokee260@reddit
“Passenger-carrying flights in airplanes, powered-lift, or rotorcraft for the benefit of a charitable, nonprofit, or community event identified in paragraph (c) of this section are not subject to the certification requirements of part 119 of this chapter or the drug and alcohol testing requirements in part 120 of this chapter, provided the following conditions are satisfied and the limitations in paragraphs (c) and (d) of this section are not exceeded…”
It’s not saying private pilots can ONLY do flights below those, just that folks doing flights outside of those criteria are required to abide by applicable sections of 119 and 120. You don’t need a commercial cert to volunteer for Pilots & Paws.
nascent_aviator@reddit
I see two of these, and neither seems particularly pertinent. Could you provide a link?
i.e. have an operating certificate and operate under part 121 or 135. Pilots & Paws categorically does not have an operating certificate and operates under part 91.
You don't need a commercial cert to volunteer for Pilots & Paws because Pilots & Paws volunteers pay for all operating costs themselves. The pilots are not being compensated in any way, so no exception in 61.113 need apply.
The exception in § 91.146, and thus § 61.113(d) is quite narrow and basically applies only to sightseeing flights. Most charity flight organizations have the pilots shoulder the costs. A few have exemptions from the FAA, like Angel Flight NE, which you can find here. As you can see, the requirements are quite onerous. Of note, pilots must have at least 500 flight hours, including 400 as PIC, a current second-class medical certificate, an instrument rating, an IPC in the past year, and receive annual training from AF/NE. How many people have all that and not a commercial cert?
Cherokee260@reddit
I was just referring to the 2009 LOI describing what a compassion flight is. I’m not arguing against any of your points, but the original comment I replied to was mentioning the legality of volunteering for a non-profit. Presumably that is in his own aircraft and he is fronting the expenses, but in the context of being compensated for it (since the comment was asking legality), 61.113(d) is the only applicable reg to charity flights, unless I’m missing something.
nascent_aviator@reddit
You are correct! Which is to say for most charity flights it is illegal for the pilot to be compensated. The only exceptions are the ones described in § 91.146(b) and the rare cases where the FAA has issued an exemption to a particular charity.
Cherokee260@reddit
Pilots N Paws is an example of one of those interpretations, where pilots aren’t necessarily paid but are legally okay-ed to claim the expenses as charitable on tax returns.
nascent_aviator@reddit
tl;dr § 61.113(d) has nothing to do with Pilots & Paws. The only reason these flights are allowed is because the pilots are not compensated. Tax deductions don't count as compensation.
The FAA has specifically said that it's okay with some tax deductions for bona fide charitable flights. This isn't spelled out in any reg but just fiat from the FAA.
But only tax deductions. The organizations themselves and the public generally are not allowed to give a penny to the pilots.
This is different from an exemption like the one I linked earlier, where the FAA tells an organization that they can ignore the regs and compensate their pilots as long as they follow the terms of the exemption.
In either case, § 61.113(d) and § 91.146 are irrelevant unless the specific flight characteristics § 91.146(b) apply. See the FAA's 2005 Kirwan letter:
Which also quotes an enforcement policy from FAA Order 8400.10, Vol. 4, Chap. 5, § 1, ¶ 1345:
So basically, the FAA says "what's between you and the IRS is between you and the IRS."
JadedJared@reddit
I should probably reading those things.
nascent_aviator@reddit
Quite likely they are paying for all the costs of the flight. It's not compensation unless you are providing a service and receiving something in return for that service.
These organizations sometimes have an LOI that lets the pilots be reimbursed for some of their costs. But the requirements are usually quite onerous.
terminal_lt_@reddit
Flight time being “compensation” is one of the biggest crocks of shit the faa has ever put out
artificielstupidite@reddit
I disagree, flight time is of major value and any time there is an item of major value on the line additional external pressures come into play when you fly. I think it is an appropriate limitation for a private pilot.
the_silent_redditor@reddit
I guess there is a vast ocean between a mutually beneficial flight between two individuals that might mean you log free/cheap hours to help ferry a mates plane, and a pilot being beholden to a third party for the purposes of genuine commercial aviation, and the clear and sometimes dangerous pressures that this brings.
One of those needs tight regulation, the other is like 99% absolutely fine and totally inconsequential.
As with all things bureaucratic, common sense fades away and one is left entangled in red tape and apparent idiocy between what is two very clearly distinct things to almost everyone imaginable.
Commercial_Meat_8522@reddit
But what will happen? They take the hour out of your log book? Experience is experience . Who cares in the end if they cross out the time in your log book
artificielstupidite@reddit
You'd have broke a federal law. I am not a lawyer so I don't know what the repercussions could reasonably be for breaking said law. Regardless, I think it's a horrible attitude to have regarding these questions. A text book "anti-authority" hazardous attitude, honestly.
Durin-5726@reddit
You are incorrect, I think. This would not break a federal law. It may violated federal regulations.
Commercial_Meat_8522@reddit
Was a pilot .
artificielstupidite@reddit
You would have knowingly broke federal law. "Knowingly" because this is required training to get your PPL. So either you were taught it and forgot it, taught it and ignored it, or not taught it at all and your CFI just pencil whipped your logbook. None of those are a good look. Like breaking any other federal law repercussions will vary. I am not a lawyer so I have no idea what the repercussions might be. But I think that is a horrible attitude to have for issues like this, in fact I could use this whole thread as an example of an anti-authority hazardous attitude.
nascent_aviator@reddit
Fixed that for you. It's plainly not that clear given how much confusion each of these threads devolves into. ;)
artificielstupidite@reddit
I don't know what to tell you, learn to read FAR's or you're going to have a miserable career. ;)
nascent_aviator@reddit
That's kind of my point lol. There's nothing clear about them- it takes some deep diving even to answer simple questions!
Luminolum@reddit
1000% illegal give me your friends number I’ll do it instead legally
TripNo1876@reddit
Nothing illegal unless you are being compensated, which it sounds like you aren't. Just doing your friend a favor. No one is going to come after you for this.
jawshoeaw@reddit
He is being compensated with hours logged.
TripNo1876@reddit
Not really. Maybe if he was actively ferrying the aircraft on a regular basis. But a one off flight where there is no money changing hands is not illegal.
bhalter80@reddit
You have a PPL IR you're like 10 hours of training and a 2nd class medical away from being able to do this legally which is not a big hill to climb.
The flight back home is a ferry flight even if you're not being paid for your time
mkosmo@reddit
That's a funny way to write "rental"
bhalter80@reddit
For it to be a rental, the op would have to pay the owner which it sounds like was not the plan
Mysterious_Cat_6082@reddit
Man, these $1 wet rates are killer these days!
mkosmo@reddit
Which is between them. Consumables plus whatever is fair for the a/c.
Let's not kid ourselves, it's not uncommon for friends to lend aircraft if they pay gas, and the feds aren't jumping down on that.
unsafervguy@reddit
he didnt ask if it was common, he asked if it was legal. common, yes. legal no. odds of the faa caring if nothing happens slim. something happens, a lot more risk.
bhalter80@reddit
The FAA casts a broad view of compensation, as long as it's defensible that op picked up reasonable expenses then it can be a rental. I'd rather not go on record with a half assed idea that later gets op in trouble. If they decide to chance it they should be armed with enough information of what the rules is and it's enforcement mechanism to decide on the risk/reward
You can also take the view that it's a refundable rental if Op brings the plane back intact :)
mkosmo@reddit
And that's fair -- I just hate the notion that OP thinks it's going to get him jammed up if he doesn't pay the FAA Blue Book rental value on top of gas, oil, nitrogen, daily hangar, and magic-smoke-inside-the-avionics costs, too. You know?
Common sense is applicable here, even to the feds. They're not unreasonable.
bhalter80@reddit
Honestly as long as the NTSB doesn't get involved nobody will know anything ever happened, and even the people who do know the flight happened aren't a party to the commercial arrangement that made it happen.
So back to the refundable rental ... If the NTSB gets involved "I was renting the plane for $180/hr and here's my receipt" if the NTSB doesn't get involved "what receipt"
Mysterious_Cat_6082@reddit
What’s crazy is it’s flat out illegal to do it for free as a PPL. Once you earn your CPL, you can do it legally….. and for free 🤯
This doesn’t compute.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
If you're doing him a favor it's quite legal. There's a saying don't overscrew the chicken.
noideawhatimdoing444@reddit
Instructions unclear, my watermelon is a little bitter.
Classic_Ad_9985@reddit
No one will ever know and if they did know, your friend isn’t compensating you necessarily. He’s just not charging you. And if you are genuinely worried about it, don’t log the time then it REALLY isn’t compensation
rc4hawk@reddit
Don’t go till the FSDO that you did it
Visible_Noise1850@reddit
I’d 100% do it and not give two shakes. No one is going to care.
Granite_burner@reddit
It’s really great my buddy asked me to go flying with him. That’s why I love the guy, always sharing. Even has me as named insured on his aircraft policy. But I’m careful to always carry my own weight, that’s why I put the gas on my own tab when I got home. Damn shame he had to take that commercial flight for his work trip so he couldn’t enjoy flying home with me.
What’s the problem, sir?
FinallyInKnoxville@reddit
Since you say you can’t find anything in your own research, you may want to look up the FAA’s Harrington Interpretation.
And to get other real pilots’ take, perhaps post your question on the POA forum instead of relying on a Reddit “forum” filled with mostly bad advice from sim jockeys or worse
Ender0999@reddit
CFI here. If you are not a commercial pilot then LEGALLY you cannot get compensated for this flight.
That’s said you can share the cost of the flight. If that compensation is he uses his plane and pays for everything and gives you “free” flight time as PIC, then that can be considered “your share”. This is not legal advice and you take my advice at the risk of your pilot certificate.
That said, im sure the FAA is not going to care what deal you made between you and your friend. I’d not worry about being “compensated” for the flight and just take the extra flight time, log it, and be happy and keep your mouth shut. Also not legal advice, see above statement and remember unless you are a Commercial pilot you cannot legally get paid for flight time.
FinallyInKnoxville@reddit
He cannot share the cost of this flight since this is not a trip he would have done anyway, with or without his friend
Ok_Witness179@reddit
Legality is the least of your concerns doing little one-off flight like this. Obviously don't make a business of it, keep it quiet, and nobody cares.
As a pilot, insurance should be your first thought before each flight. That's the thing that'll really come back to bite you if something goes wrong.
HuthS0lo@reddit
Definitely a gray area that falls in to the "fuck it" category.
You're right. If there is a cost to flying a plane, then the cost has to be either fully absorbed by the pilot, or split amongst the beneficiary passengers and pilot. In this case, there isnt an actual cost if he owns the plane. Sure in the long run there will be, when it ultimately needs an oil change, annual, or engine swap. But its not an immediately calculable cost.
Take the gift, and move on with your life.
Texpress22@reddit
Doesn’t sounds like he’s asking you do do any commercial pilot stuff. Just a friend helping a friend. He isn’t saying he will “pay you” with flight time. You’re just flying a plane somewhere for a friend.
AdPitiful1339@reddit
Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations.
Where my SERE pilots at.
Swimming-Ear-9254@reddit
OP is an interested buyer of this plane. Test flight is perfectly reasonable. So what if he doesn’t buy it.
Future_Combat952@reddit
Jesus. All these newly minted pilots will be the death of us all.
Inspiring_Pessimist@reddit
Sounds like a fun flying club to me
sftwareguy@reddit
If you don't log the time.. is it compensation?
nascent_aviator@reddit
If I throw the money I'm paid in the dumpster, is it compensation?
MockCheckrideDotCom@reddit
Happens frequently. 🤷♂️
It's illegal by the book. Probably slightly less so if you don't log the flight time.
There's also the consideration of what happens if you crash your buddy's plane. If you're not a named insured on their policy, this could get messy quickly.
natbornk@reddit
Good point about this, I’d be more worried about insurance in the event of a mishap as opposed to the FAA
LateralThinkerer@reddit
This is from the (sadly) old barter model of kids washing/fueling planes in exchange for flight time at an FBO somewhere. You're not being contracted for this and it's not going towards a new license/cert/qualification so in the end it has no value.
taggingtechnician@reddit
What is the owner's rental rate for you? $1/hr? Pay him the $1 so it will be legal in your mind.
inconvenientjesus@reddit
You arent holding out. You arent advertising. You’re flying another dudes plane from time to time. That’s it. That’s the rule.
AnnualWhole4457@reddit
gasp
I'm calling the FSDO, CIA, FBI, USBP, BP, WALMART and your mother.
Just do the flight, dude. The FSDO isn't looking into anything if there's not a complaint, for the most part.
2009impala@reddit
We need to admen AIM and add a chapter on not being a goober.
Chappietime@reddit
If this isn’t legal, what would be?
adnwilson@reddit
I'm confused on how this would be illegal, I'm new to aviation so not as well versed as the rest.
But from my limited knowledge (and this is barely covered on the PAR). There is no compensation. OP is just flying his friend's plane for fun.
nascent_aviator@reddit
It's the strings attached. The friend isn't handing OP the keys and saying "have fun." He's handing OP the keys and saying "go park this in my hangar and come pick me up on Wednesday."
Basically, are you a friend borrowing a plane, or are you a glorified valet?
Buzz407@reddit
If you are really worried, give him a crisp dollar bill and get a receipt.
Fin.
182RG@reddit
Don’t log it.
Cherokee260@reddit
Hello fellow airplane
Sk1900d@reddit
What’s up guys
bigbyte_es@reddit
In Spain if you fly ultralights you can’t earn money with them… and everyone know anyone that make ferry flights for money.
It is legal? No. Authorities care? No.
TheGacAttack@reddit
This is a ferry flight. You need a CPL.
Or it's a rental, and you're paying for gas.
Or it's a brand new flying club!
Sock_Eating_Golden@reddit
This guy "grey areas"
TheGacAttack@reddit
Eh, kinda. That depends.
weech@reddit
😂
csl512@reddit
Are you a bona fide friend?
DiamineViolets4Roses@reddit
If the weather goes to shit on his return, he’ll be inconvenienced and blame it on you. Not that you couldn’t hop in the car to pick him up, but people gonna people.
That’s a small thing, but a good reason to pass which negates the legality question.
Fancy_o_lucas@reddit
It would be considered as compensation if the feds had the desire to look into it. You would need to pay for the operating cost of the airplane flying home.
throwaway5757_@reddit
Don’t count the flight time. Problem solved!
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
A friend of mine owns his own airplane but also travels via the airlines for work. He has asked me to fly him to our regional airport and bring the plane back home. The reasoning is that he doesn't want to pay for vehicle parking, doesn't want to fly himself and leave his plane there out in the elements, and it's just generally faster to fly there than drive. I am not being compensated for this, but I often see remarks that the FAA counts flight time as compensation.
I know it seems minuscule, but I honestly want to know what the law states around this, and I cannot find anything in my own research.
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
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