Toxic Fumes are Leaking Into Aircraft, Sickening Crew and Passengers
Posted by GunDMc@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 65 comments
Posted by GunDMc@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 65 comments
jgilbs@reddit
Mentour Pilot did a video on this issue, and how a poor design on the 737 MAX could literally incapacitate the pilots and cause a crash if an engine were to fail during a critical phase of flight. Video here
InnerBreath2884@reddit
Yuck. You do not wanna breathe this stuff. Someone needs to come up with a way to fix this better
Past-Lychee-9570@reddit
Is that the same thing as smelling exhaust after the plane parks at the gate nearly every time I've been on a commercial aircraft?
bassthrive@reddit
Fume events are no joke. I’ve had two on the bus. Happy to be flying the 78 now with its all electric cabin air compressors.
If you smell a dirty socks or locker room smell, that’s bad news.
TireShineWet@reddit
Is there realistically anything a passenger can do to avoid breathing those fumes? Can they manually drop the oxygen masks?
fly_awayyy@reddit
You’ll smell it between engine starts or APU starts because oil leaks last seals during power changes or startup and shutdowns. Honestly hold your Breathe for those few seconds.
AceofdaBase@reddit
Except the cabin air is ~48% fresh and 52% recirculated.
CL350S@reddit
lol where did you get these numbers.
AceofdaBase@reddit
Embraer flight manual for the 48/52. Airbus 320 is about 50/50. Same for Boeing minus the 787. Google search can substantiate.
CL350S@reddit
And there are many where the amount recirculated is zero
AceofdaBase@reddit
Yeah you’re right. Your Cessna 172 is not recirculated.
CL350S@reddit
Is that supposed to be some kind of insult?
fb39ca4@reddit
Bring a respirator mask with P100 filters.
RelatableChad@reddit
3M makes one that's both P100 and OV (organic vapors)
FriendComplex8767@reddit
Water and towel helps. The oxygen masks in the aircraft will do nothing.
blondzie@reddit
No, and the chemicals you are breathing are “life long” chemicals meaning the only way to remove them would be a complete books transfusion
LoonyLumi@reddit
Passenger oxygen masks won't help with the fumes, I'm afraid. They're designed for mixing oxygen with what you're already breathing and they last just several minutes, so that in an event of decompression there's enough time to get to the safe cabin altitude.
ibisbin@reddit
Waiiiiiit I remember in 2023 I was onboard a really old Aegean A320 and it stank for the (relatively short) flight from Athens to Chania....am I cooked lmao
def_not_a_gril@reddit
This is really weird because I was going to write the same thing - I think I rode your plane from Athens to Mytilini and a couple weeks ago. Small world.
subarupilot@reddit
Man I don’t think I’ll ever leave the 78.
ELON_WHO@reddit
Used to get this shit in the Q400. The “dirty sock” smell of VOCs via aerosolized oil, apparently.
echobase83@reddit
This just takes all the fun out of flying on a 757
NF-104@reddit
The really bad thing about these events is that aviation oils (and oils for aviation alone) contain Tricresyl phosphate, which is a potent neurotoxin. Look up Jake Leg, which happened during prohibition when this compound was added to a Jamaica Ginger, a patent medicine (and thus not subject to prohibition) with high alcohol content, which was consumed as a drink.
Imbibers of this developed neuropathy of muscles of the lower leg, and were unable to bend their ankle, so their feet always drooped, leading to a permanent irregular gait.
helioNz4R1@reddit
Imagine not requiring filters for air coming through a big ass engine.
LivermoreP1@reddit
If this was Boeing, the story would be making international headlines.
“The Journal’s analysis shows incidents began climbing in 2016, the year Airbus started delivering its new A320neo, what would become the world’s fastest-selling model. It boasted a new generation of fuel-efficient engines, including one that was plagued by rapidly degrading seals meant to keep oil from leaking into the air supply.
Under pressure from airlines who complained that fume events were keeping aircraft out of service for up to days at a time, Airbus loosened maintenance rules, according to a review of internal documents and people familiar with the changes.”
Just_Another_Scott@reddit
Did you read the article? They talk about Boeing in the article. Boeing jets face the same issue sans the 787. They even got a hold of internal documents that Boeing used to market the 787 and asked the air purification not be discussed because people would then ask questions about it's other models.
mduell@reddit
The chart in the article shows a way higher rate of incidents for the A320 family than the 737 family.
Just_Another_Scott@reddit
And? The article clearly discussed this issue affects all Boeing planes except the 787 and even mentions Boeing covering up the issue. The article does not give Boeing a pass.
mduell@reddit
The post you replied to never said exclusive. They noted how Airbus got worse after a mx change.
Just_Another_Scott@reddit
They literally said
It is a Boeing story as well as an Airbus one. It's an aviation industry as a whole.
mduell@reddit
And if Boeing got worse after a mx change, the story would be making international headlines given all their poor practices.
Constant-Arm5379@reddit
Still doesn’t compare to two brand new jets crashing without survivors though. I understand that the whole witch hunt against Boeing sucks, but an incident like this still won’t compare to the craziness that went on at Boeing with the Max.
jeffrey0032j@reddit
The way Airbus approaches this seems to be on par with Boeing's approach to the 2 crashes,. The only difference? Airbus potentially kills you slowly, possibly painfully, much more insidious than the Boeing crashes. Why has there not been a study on how many deaths have been caused by fume events? Is the number potentially high enough to be a concern? Why is Airbus trying to avoid this? And why did Airbus approve an action to make maintenance simpler at the expense of the health of crew and travelling public?
GustyGhoti@reddit
What’s your point? This is a contest of who made it worse. It’s important to highlight issues like this especially a major aircraft manufacturer covering up defects. Hopefully this is properly addressed
ScienceMechEng_Lover@reddit
Funnily enough, the 787 is likely the only aircraft in both Boeing and Airbus' lineup that's immune to this issue due to it not using a bleed air system.
blondzie@reddit
This is a Boeing issue too. These are CFM engines that both airbus and Boeing fly
FriendComplex8767@reddit
This is very common on the Airbus.
Ive had a mouthful of the smoke, not as bad as this but enough to cough and cause a headache. Long terms neurological effects are big worry with crews (aerotoxic syndromes)
Airlines should be fined for allowing this and manufactures forced to install sensors to close the bleed air valves if oil fumes are detected.
RelatableChad@reddit
Unironically, would bringing a P100/OV respirator in my carry-on protect me from an event like that?
FriendComplex8767@reddit
I'm just in IT, I'm the wrong person to ask! My best guess would be any type of commercial respirator would be a big improvement over nothing, but would certainly look out of place. Even a N95 would offer a limited amount of protection.
The crews however all use full face masks, bottled oxygen and smoke hoods.
While very common, its still incredibly unlikely. Catering is still far more likely to kill you!
JohnnyChutzpah@reddit
I honestly am stunned with how common it is. And how far back this goes.
“The FAA on its website says the incidents are “rare” and cites a 2015 review that estimated a rate of “less than 33 events per million aircraft departures.” That rate would suggest a total of about 330 fume events on U.S. airlines last year.
In reality, the FAA received more than double that number of reports of fume events in 2024 from the 15 biggest U.S. airlines alone, according to the Journal’s analysis of service difficulty reports for flights between 2010 and early 2025. The rate has soared in recent years. In 2014, the Journal found about 12 fume events per million departures. By 2024, the rate had jumped to nearly 108.”
There were almost 8.5 million departures last year in the US alone. It’s crazy that the rate is going up and it’s a problem that has been known about for over a decade now.
“Chesson was diagnosed with a traumatic brain injury and permanent damage to her peripheral nervous system caused by the fumes she inhaled.”
And
“He raised concerns that the public might discover that oil leaks could make “aircrew sick to the point of death.””
Like holy shit this whole story is crazy.
FriendComplex8767@reddit
Yep, a dirty little secret that's well understood but hidden under the rug with no real mitigations for decades. Sort of like how the tobacco company denied smoking was harmful. I'm aware of flight-crews and cabin crew that never returned to work after a fumes event.
Even brand new engines, such as on the 737MAX have massive oversights such as in the event of a engine failure, the engine by design will burn a great deal of engine oil and send it right into the bleed air system and fill either the cockpit or cabin with the toxic smoke without any consideration.
You'd think some logic could be programmed in to close the bleed valves at the same time, but no...and this issue has been going on for years unsolved.
https://www.aviathrust.com/article/LEAP-Engine-Smoke-from-LRD-Activation
I know on the operator I do work for the mechanics keep an eye on the HEPA filters for signs of engine oil. On at-least our A320's the filters are only on the re-circulation side of it and won't prevent oil smoke getting into the cabin which I thought would have made some sense.
notthegoodscissors@reddit
I work out on the ramp and very often you'll get residual oil smoke coming out from the engines long after they have shutdown. Even outside, with abundant fresh air diluting the smell and its potency, it can be overpowering and makes it difficult to breathe normally. I can't imagine how bad it would be inside a pressurised cabin at altitude, when you have no real alternative except to breathe in those acrid fumes.
ch4m3le0n@reddit
BAe 146 enters the chat
MixDifferent2076@reddit
Engine and airframe manufacturers understand the issue of bearing compartments not sealing properly, but litigation for subjecting the flying public to contaminated air is not something they want to promote by discussing this issue.
yellekc@reddit
Okay, so only fly in the 787 to avoid this?
jetpilot87@reddit
Yes
Wingmaniac@reddit
As long as the 787 doesn't have engines, it should be safe.
billyvray@reddit
I have a buddy that flies A321s and has been out of work for months with headaches and dizzy spells after a heavy fume event. It’s total bs it has t been fixed in the industry.
TornadoEF5@reddit
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Tysonviolin@reddit
I often smell fumes on the a320 planes. I don’t think much of it
Atav757@reddit
Certain times it’s “normal” (quotes because it shouldn’t really happen ever if it can be controlled).
Like when you’re taxiing around, the most likely reason is that the airplane in front of you is blowing its exhaust into your engines. Or, generally just after engine start, the auxiliary power unit (jet engine in the tail) is sucking in your own airplanes exhaust. Also flying though a high moisture cloud below 15k feet with engines near idle almost always causes that “AC smell”, same smell an old window unit would make when you first turn it on. Other than those, fumes = very bad.
DarkSoulsExplorer@reddit
I rarely fly, but I know the smell of fumes when I smell them. Recently walked through Vegas, Southwest terminal. Every once in awhile, we’d walk through an area of the terminal and I could smell fumes. Then while taxing with a bunch of other planes waiting to take off I could smell the exhaust fumes. In my mind that’s not healthy to be breathing. Am I correct in that assumption?
xMpty@reddit
I was on a flight in 2019 from Oakland to Honolulu that filled with smoke 30 min before landing. I had a feeling it was oil because the smoke started right as the engine spooled down for decent. The crew however thought it could be a fire somewhere in the cabin. Never been that prepared to die before, it was odd how quiet the cabin was as we were instructed to lean forward and brace for an emergency landing. As far as I can tell no lasting health issues and didn’t feel sick or off during or after. Silver lining was that I was seated in the emergency row of all places and got to help with the evacuation on the runway. Don’t bring your shit, form loops with your arms and for gods sake don’t lay flat on your back. Can’t catch you that way.
https://abc7ny.com/post/terrifying-moments-aboard-flight-as-cabin-fills-with-smoke/5488452/
I-will-allow-it@reddit
Is this why I smell kerosine sometimes? I’ve only noticed it on the ground.
drone_driver24@reddit
No. Most times this is caused during startup of an engine, and usually caused by the wind blowing the exhaust back towards the airplane. Unlike maintenance, departing aircraft usually don’t have a choice of direction when starting engines.
fly_awayyy@reddit
Not true, it’s pretty evident all engines and APUs produce this smell during startup or large power changes. You’ll notice a very distinct smell when its exhaust for example if your taxiing close to another jet.
SevenandForty@reddit
I seem to recall the A320ceo family being implicated in some fume incidents as well, the pattern of which were investigated by Simon over at AVHerald: https://avherald.com/h?article=4b6eb830&opt=1024
llaurinsky@reddit
From my experience, the A320ceo family APU is prone to having oil leaks into the bleed air system. I've only worked with the Honeywell APU though, don't know if the P&W yields better results. The 737 APU is more reliable in this regard.
On the NEOs & the MAXs the fumes events I've seen were related to the engine bleed air.
fly_awayyy@reddit
Used to fly the E170/190, the amount of fumes you get when the bleeds come online from the APU or from the engines never fails its every start up and very noticeable even in the passenger cabin. I always used to worry about this, some of us would start to turn of the APU bleed instead of leaving it in auto logic and letting it run a minute till re-engaging it like the A320.
nothingbutfinedining@reddit
The 320 has the APU inlet on the bottom of the aircraft and the inlet duct under the APU. This is the biggest problem by far. They are beginning to address it very soon on newly delivered aircraft with a rerouted duct.
blondzie@reddit
So terrifying to imagine my family being trapped on an AP for 20+ minutes until the plane can make an emergency landing all the while breathing life long chemicals that will never leave your blood stream ever again. Knowing that the government would rather protect this massive companies than let the public get the billions they are entitled to for having their family tree cut off at the roots.
sevgonlernassau@reddit
According to the article, the majority is A320neo due to Airbus simplifying maintenance procedures
Amethyst_princess425@reddit
reads article
stares at father who led engineering in designing air system for 787
“Finally he did something right…”
SourceBrilliant4546@reddit
Some Boeing's and Air Bus engine bleed systems have malfunctioned. These are used to pressurize the cabin . It's the engine maker. The WSJ makes this clear. https://www.wsj.com/business/airlines/air-travel-toxic-fumes-64839d6e
R4G@reddit
I saw a video of similar on an Allegiant flight years ago and the news reporting at the passengers were never contacted for any sort of compensation. Allegiant is the only airline I will never fly now.