What is the LMAV missed approach point here and how is it ID’d

[-]

dabflies@reddit

What is the reason for the "*1.3 NM to RWY 06" note if the MAP is still the RWY 06 waypoint?

[-]

Cherokee260@reddit

Its a tad concerning that an ATP doesn’t know what the VDP is…

[-]

dabflies@reddit

I don't use FAA charts and we fly LNAV as SCDA anyway at my airline

[-]

Cherokee260@reddit

Did you learn on FAA charts? And VDPs are depicted on Jepp charts too, if that’s your attempted justification.

[-]

I learned in Canada and they don't publish such a thing on our charts. Just checked a few LNAV approaches to be sure. SCDA has been the standard here for over 10 years. This VDA would, I imagine, correlate rather well to the advisory visibility on the approach.

If I have to use LNAV minimums only we still fly in lnav/vnav but add 50' to MDA to account for the dip in a go around (not required for minimums with DA like LNAV/VNAV and LPV minima). So maybe cool it on the condescension, not everyone lives in FAA land.

[-]

Cherokee260@reddit

I think your missing the point of a VDP. It doesn’t have to do with the angle you fly the approach down, but rather when you should execute a missed approach. It’s based on the fact that once you’re in too close to a runway you can’t make a stable approach down even if you get it in sight. So, although sometimes provided on the charts by the FAA, on many approaches you have to calculate it yourself.

[-]

dieseltaco@reddit

You can if you fly like you STOL it

[-]

Oregon-Pilot@reddit

I understand that VDP is pretty basic IFR stuff, but jeez. Maybe get your ATP and two type ratings before going around calling people out for their imperfections; we all have them.

[-]

Cherokee260@reddit

What does having an ATP or type ratings have to do with it? I’m just pointing out that as an ATP, even if you somehow don’t know the VDP, you shouldn’t at a minimum know where to look for it. That is incredibly basic IFR knowledge.

[-]

Oregon-Pilot@reddit

The point is, there is a truck load of stuff to know, and every now and then, people forget something, due to not needing to use it and it fades over time, or they just have a momentary lapse, or discover there was a small hole in their knowledge. I bet dabflies could find it, but sometimes a post on Reddit has good context and so learning it or re-learning it can be more effective. Yes, dabflies ought to know it, just like you, as a CFI, ought to know the FOIs and how calling someone out and shaming them like this does nothing to help them learn something effectively.

[-]

dabflies@reddit

Thanks for the support, /u/Oregon-Pilot. I'm from Canada and they don't publish such a thing on our charts.

[-]

hood2thaholler@reddit

Visual Descent Point (VDP)

[-]

hood2thaholler@reddit

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2020/august/flight-training-magazine/instrument-tip-going-visual

[-]

Legitimate-Watch-670@reddit

It's an rmav approach, which means you're using gps, which means you just go missed whenever the gps tells you to (unless lpv or vnav with a DA)

[-]

Noend151@reddit (OP)

This is not what I asked at all (nor is it correct)

[-]

Legitimate-Watch-670@reddit

🤷 ok lol. Don't mind me, I'm just a CFII who isn't asking IFR fundamentals on reddit. Sounds like you got it all figured out!

[-]

carl-swagan@reddit

The MAP is the “RW06” waypoint shown on the plan view and the profile view.

These are really poorly defined on the FAA charts and they need to update the symbology IMO.

[-]

Noend151@reddit (OP)

Thank you. What is the rhyme or reason to why the solid descent line continues to the MAP on some non precisions vs this one? Or if that’s too long winded, is the vertical solid line at RW06 always the MAP on non precisions?

[-]

flyingron@reddit

Well technically LPV isn't a "precision approach" (for stupid iCAO compatibility reasons).

However, the essence is correct. Any approach with DA minimums, show the solid line ending at roughly where the glideslope intercepts that EVEN if there are non-vertical guidance (LNAV, LOC, etc...) minima. Only when there are no DA minima, does the solid line continue to the MAP. That's just the way it is, one of the things you're required to know to get an instrument rating.

[-]

ivytea@reddit

LPV cannot be categorized as one because it utilizes 0 ground based equipment unlike ILS or GLS

[-]

flyingron@reddit

Sorry, that's not the reason. ICAO's assinine (as far as the US is concerned) Precision Approach definition (Annex 10) permits precision SBAS and GBAS approaches. They just set the requirements more restrictive than the US does for LPV's.

[-]

ivytea@reddit

Thank you for correction. Gonna tell my instructor, too

[-]

Mispelled-This@reddit

Because when they use the same plate for both precision and non-precision approaches, the symbology for the precision one takes precedence.

[-]

Noend151@reddit (OP)

This is very succinct thank you. I hadn’t heard that before.

One thought that comes to mind is that MAP for precision approaches is the DA, so not technically marked right?

[-]

Mispelled-This@reddit

Correct.

[-]

omalley4n@reddit

I regularly fly approaches to half a dozen runways with an early LNAV MAP. However it's always marked in the same fashion and pretty obvious.

[-]

taytayflyfly@reddit

It’s better to say it’s the last fix or waypoint in the profile view when going towards the runway. KASE has examples as well. If you go missed at the threshold, you may not outclimb the mountains

[-]

K20017@reddit

KIYK RNAV (GPS) RWY 2, the MAP is 5nm from the runway, likely because of the restricted areas. Most often you'll see non-runway MAP with RNAV circling only mins but this approach is LNAV straight-in.

[-]

Mispelled-This@reddit

I knew I could count on Redditors to prove me wrong!

[-]

K20017@reddit

There's exceptions to the exceptions and then letters of interpretations for letters of interpretations.

[-]

AlexJamesFitz@reddit

Many charts show both precision (or precision-like) and non-precision approaches. Here, you've got approaches with both MDAs and DAs. The approaches with MDAs are flown to RW06, but the approach with a DA (the LPV) is flown to decision altitude (shown here in the profile view by the ascending dotted line just short of RW06.

[-]