Upcoming changes for bcachefs; notes for users distributions
Posted by ouyawei@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 93 comments
Posted by ouyawei@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 93 comments
FungalSphere@reddit
I would rather not have to dkms for a file system but good luck to everyone else involved i guess
unlikely-contender@reddit
Why not?
eugay@reddit
Thus, this has a chilling effect on trying new Linux file systems
Zomunieo@reddit
Hopefully it has a chilling effect on self righteous maintainers.
edparadox@reddit
People using ZFS on Linux feel like that as well.
RAMChYLD@reddit
Yeah. It gets annoying when the ZFS cannot build because the kernel ABI symbols changes. And this is especially bad because my hone directory is on a ZFS volume. Losing ZFS means losing the ability to log in and pull ZFS from AUR since you are blocked from running Yay as root, leaving me stuck in a freaking catch 22 situation. This is why I have a backup kernel in the form of a LTS kernel installed and that has its own issues- the current LTS kernel doesn't really support a Radeon RX 9070XT properly because it's too old.
Zoddo98@reddit
No need for
yay
, you can just clone the AUR repo manually, and runmakepkg -sic
in it. While not recommended, it should works as root.Craftkorb@reddit
You can create a new user with adduser and use a custom home path, like /recovery, which it's part of your non-zfs storage
lazyboy76@reddit
ZFS work well on debian. Solid choices for NAS.
TheOneTrueTrench@reddit
I use Root on ZFS on Debian, works great.
... of course, the news about the internal kernel API getting removed isn't great, but at least Debian 13 is going to support ZFS until 2030 on the 6.12 LTS kernel at a minimum.
lazyboy76@reddit
Woah, sounds like something big happened.
TheOneTrueTrench@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1nek4y5/linux_618_will_further_complicate_nongpl
davis-andrew@reddit
A mastodon post from robn, a zfs developer that does a lot of the new Linux version enablement the last few years.
https://social.lol/@robn/115189135969338619
I'll take his word that it's overblown given he's the one in the thick of it.
eastboundzorg@reddit
Yea but I wouldn’t use it except on if the distro bundels it like promos
acdcfanbill@reddit
I used ZFS on Linux with DKMS in production CentOS machines for years and it's been pretty seemless. I think one time I had an issue and had to trigger some module rebuilds manually, but otherwise, no issues.
mdedetrich@reddit
Distributions like archlinux do a good job when it comes to dkms, to the point where it just looks like a standard package and there aren't any real issues with it.
Lucas_F_A@reddit
I like that on Nixos, once it's built (ie updated) it's done, no more compilation or anything. I imagine it's the same on cachy, where the package manager waits until dkms is done?
spreetin@reddit
Yes, NixOS makes me feel comfortable using whatever I want, as long as the software itself is stable enough. I've had enough of causing myself issues by doing "off-meta" stuff and borking my system on normal distros.
well-litdoorstep112@reddit
Thats an archlinux thing tho.
prey169@reddit
Not happy about it either but the fs at this point is so good I can't give it to go back to anything else
boar-b-que@reddit
From this AND the Suse thread, it's becoming VERY apparent to me what Linus was dealing with, from the perspective of someone who wasn't keeping track of the soap opera.
Mr. Overstreet has some very interesting ideas for filesystem development, but his personality and methods of doing work on it are dooming those ideas from ever getting a wider audience or adoption.
Zomunieo@reddit
I hope someone is keeping tabs on Overstreet’s wife/girlfriend/partner.
no-name-here@reddit
I didn't notice any issues in this post, but I may not be tuned to it - what did you see in this post that was an issue?
neverending_despair@reddit
He blatantly lied about getting the distros to hold off anything. Both will drop it with 6.17.
WaitingForG2@reddit
Just people trying to bully developer into quitting development, nothing to see here
Oh, and potentially even cancel him considering people are happy if distros will drop filesystem because of dkms
AleBaba@reddit
No stable distribution will drop bcachefs because, drum roll, none of them adopted it in the first place.
It was and still is labeled experimental, unstable and anyone using it knew that.
If you're willing to deploy an unsupported file system you're willing to build your open kernel modules.
mrtruthiness@reddit
The part where he realizes he needs to play nice with stable distros and thinks that the previous dust-ups are no big deal. The "play nice" part are the last two posts to the thread where bcachefs-tools were orphaned. It's good to remind yourself about who/what caused the dust-up. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1080344 .
[ There appears to be a Debian dev who will carry this. However, after Kent's previous behavior ... which is clearly against the Debian CoC ... I'm not sure they should. Perhaps it's not yet ready to be in a stable distro like Debian. ]
Also Kent is himself here ... where he goes on to attack BTRFS devs again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45209599 ( search on "the btrfs devs are also famous for being unresponsive to these sorts of issues"). I found this because he linked to it here https://www.reddit.com/r/bcachefs/comments/1nepxkw/chapter_2_dkms/ndta2ms/ where he is simply encouraging people to spread anecdotes .
The dude is toxic.
kedstar99@reddit
Am I the only one who sees the toxic nature of the Linux community out at play here?
We see a thread and every single comment ends up with a deconstruction of the psychology of Overstreet.
Have seen a similar thing play out with snap and Canonical or systemd and Poettering, or Stallman
Plenty of stuff wrong with the world but I would bet a significant chunk of you need to touch grass.
chibiace@reddit
to me, it looks, tastes and feels like a character hit job. pair this with rushing to remove the interface that blocks openzfs aswell and it certainly doesnt look natural at all.
polongus@reddit
he's done a fantastic job hitting his own character over the past years. this isn't anything new.
hell just go to his own sub, /r/bcachefs and you can see the flair he's given himself: "not your free tech support" - so much for his supposed dedication to users.
or when someone there asked him a few times to help get gparted to add bcachefs compatibility he told them to read the code themselves and banned them...
koverstreet@reddit
it's a joke, you have to be in the know to get it :)
MarzipanEven7336@reddit
Umm no, you’re the joke. Your file system is the most unstable heaping pile of shit ever. It was cool and had a promising future like 9-10 years ago, but then we all migrated to all flash storage, which negates any need for it.
frankster@reddit
I don't think it helps anyone to weigh in with targeted personal attacks like this. Unless the guy has done something to you personally.
MarzipanEven7336@reddit
He banned me for asking a fucking question about background tasks and data synchronization not working in that pile of fucking shit fake filesystem. I was being nice, now I'm not.
mrtruthiness@reddit
He banned me from the bcachefs subreddit. AFAICT it was for simply telling him to stop the anecdotes and personal attacks in regard to btrfs [I can see my own comments there, but he has deleted his own comments in that exchange.] His introspection and self-view is broken IMO.
polongus@reddit
right, where's the joke here?
I don't think /u/itchy_ruin_352 is laughing.
mrtruthiness@reddit
An openZFS dev has already said that you're exaggerating. It took him an afternoon to deal with the change.
Your perspective is questionable.
flying-sheep@reddit
Conspiracy myth much?
6e1a08c8047143c6869@reddit
You made that up.
kono_throwaway_da@reddit
If we apply the same standard people here use to assess Overstreet, Linus himself will be the first to get removed from the kernel
polongus@reddit
well no. because Linus' is not going to mouth off to his boss and refuse to apologize.
james_pic@reddit
I suppose it's interesting how rarely it's Linus whose flaws are being analysed, despite him having a history of being difficult to work with -often on the right side of the argument, but nonetheless prone to escalating a debate into a conflict.
ScholarKnown4422@reddit
I second this but let me say that this is a situation where two entities of such nature come in contact.
MarzipanEven7336@reddit
Here you all go,Â
https://github.com/koverstreet/bcachefs/issues
Just read some of those issues, and Kent’s responses. It’s always an excuse like, I want to do it right. Notice the I? My Aunt who was an executive at several large Tech companies used to always say, “The I in TEAM is the A hole.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
isn't it just actually mostly really I in the case of bcachefs tho? Is there a team?
AleBaba@reddit
I noticed Kent repeatedly using "we" when it came to support or how big the project supposedly was, but "I" when it came to actual work being done.
Maybe I've got the wrong impression but to me bcachefs seemed to be quite a bit inflated from the start.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
indeed, sure doesn't seem like there's a "we". I've yet to see someone someone else representing the project in any circumstance. Kent will post on reddit, phoronix, and of course LKML. Nobody else has.
AleBaba@reddit
Which, if I understood correctly, was the reason why Linus wanted bcachefs out of tree.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
well if kent had just followed the rules we wouldn't even be talking about this.
MarzipanEven7336@reddit
If there’s nobody to support it, then it doesn’t really belong in the kernel.
Booty_Bumping@reddit
A large plurality of kernel modules are only maintained by one person. So if this is your ideal, then at least 25% of the kernel should be removed.
MarzipanEven7336@reddit
Go look at the Maintainer list, it's literally grouped into a tree of people. Linus doesn't get every single fucking pull/merge/email request and inspect each one. You mail your patch to another maintainer, usually someone who owns a subsystem/api and they determine whether or not to sign off and merge locally, then it eventually all gets merged upward until it lands.
Booty_Bumping@reddit
Yes? No shit?
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
I was only commenting on the usage of the word "I".
Many people have suggested that Kent let somebody else manage patches into the linux kernel, but he indeed won't let anybody else do it, thus it is indeed no longer accepting patches. So "I" is still very appropraite.
polongus@reddit
This thread is hilarious: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1080344
Kent on 9/4/25:
Kent on 9/11/25:
Dude is in his own fucking delulu universe
mrtruthiness@reddit
The first one was from Sep 4, 2024 ... not Sep 4, 2025.
polongus@reddit
oops my bad.
Booty_Bumping@reddit
What are you on about? Those two quotes are not only separated by a year, they about completely different topics.
Albos_Mum@reddit
I mean, I can see what you mean but I also can't help but see the typical kind of egocentrism typical of someone with an idea that could be great if not derailed by the ego that comes from recognising a great idea before fully executing it.
Or in other words: Kent could afford to be taken down a notch or two, but bcachefs itself is a great concept and hopefully will reach maturity in a way that makes it easy for anyone to use. Even better if Kent and Linus can figure things out so that bcachefs is just like any other Linux fs in the future.
mrtruthiness@reddit
Didn't you hear? It was nearly ready in 2015. From August 2015:
Albos_Mum@reddit
I'm fully aware, but developers jumping the gun is so common that it's a trope at this point.
Speaking as someone who uses it as their root file system and has ran parity RAID setups with it before: When was btrfs declared stable again?
mrtruthiness@reddit
btrfs in regard to single-disk on-disk format and ABI/API was declared stable in Nov 2013.
I hope you are not confusing how "stable" is defined in regard to things like: distribution, kernel component, .... It doesn't mean "no bugs". In regard to "kernel component" ... it means "feature complete" and/or "stable ABI/API".
Also, the whataboutism and attacks that Kent uses against btrfs is old/tired and distracts from the point -- don't join him on that. The problems bcachefs is encountering have nothing to do with btrfs, yet he distracts with that every time. He did it yesterday, again in this thread ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45209599 ; search on "the btrfs devs are also famous for being unresponsive to these sorts of issues"). His whataboutism and attacks on btrfs was also IMO the deciding factor to essentially drop it from the kernel.
btrfs is stable. AFAIK btrfs had has very few issues in the last 5 years outside of raid5/6 (which is deprecated) and some corner cases in regard to out-of-space issues. Remember: There is a reason that btrfs is the default filesystem on openSuSE, Fedora, and several other distros (Sliverblue, CachyOS) including Synology NAS devices. The number of devices running btrfs is at least four magnitudes higher than those running bcachefs. That means a lot more than an anecdote from any one individual who hasn't had any problems.
inevitabledeath3@reddit
I think partially this is down to merging too early in it's development. Really should have done DKMS first until things were more stable.
mrlinkwii@reddit
whats the issue with that ? the reason its going to a module is linus's fault
GeronimoHero@reddit
Yeah this guy is a fucking nightmare to deal with.
cAtloVeR9998@reddit
Hope one day a stable bcachefs can be in the kernel. With someone other than Kent responsible for upstreaming patches.
0riginal-Syn@reddit
Pretty much what it will take. He lacks the ability to work within an established project that is way more important than him.
chibiace@reddit
i'd just like to point out that this is written by Kent who is supposedly impossible to work with.
take a look at what hector martin was writing before he rage quit if you want to see somebody who is actually impossible to work with.
allisma@reddit
Genuinely out of curiosity, can you provide a few links/examples of Hector Martin being difficult? I have only seen some of Kent’s messages that didn’t make a good case for the changes being made, and wanted to see the comparison between the two you’re highlighting.
chibiace@reddit
heres one thread, and throughout this he was doing social media brigading which linus does chastise him for. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/Z5qeoqRZKjiR1YAD@pollux/
this one has asahi lina which is hector's vtuber alt personality who uses the same computer as him to work on the exact same things. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/32e7da7e-de32-4bc6-a751-f604da36a63f@asahilina.net/
tulpyvow@reddit
asahi lina is not an alternate personality?
chibiace@reddit
whatever you want to believe then. personally i dont name my home directory after my coworkers username
tulpyvow@reddit
Not really "what I want to believe" but rather what she herself said. Not an alternate personality but a deadname.
KrazyKirby99999@reddit
Asahi Lina is an alias, Hector identifies as both regularly. Given Hector's hostility in a thread intended for his benefit, I definitely wouldn't want to work with him.
chibiace@reddit
i actually think it should go further than that with him, his and "lina"s code should be removed and audited.
the dude resigned from the linux kernel while continuing to use his alt. in any video game this gets you banned for cheating.
not to mention the malicious behavior.
chibiace@reddit
sounds like fraud to me. but you do you
Xmgplays@reddit
I mean only one of them got kicked for being difficult to work with, so....
Plus I'd say someone that fundamentally doesn't seem to get how the Linux release model works and when to submit and not submit features does seem to be impossible to work with, at least when the work is in the kernel.
mdedetrich@reddit
Thats not what the contention was, the argument is that the Linux kernel process doesn't work well with newly introduced filesystems, especially when the filesystems need to quickly push fixes to users because if the filesystem doesn't work then basically nothing works.
What really happened is that the filesystem subsystem of the Linux kernel has an exception where you are allowed to post critical bugfixes during an rc-. What ensued was a months of pedantic arguing about whether something is technically a bug fix or a feature, even though the patch was fixing a critical problem where a user was unable to mount/recover a bcachefs partition.
Xmgplays@reddit
I mean pedantic or not he did personally label it a "feature", even if he for some reason thinks it isn't. You have to be inept to not expect Linus to be at least a bit miffed about that. Not to mention that this specific case is not the first conflict he had with Linus
A caveat: Linux users of an experimental filesystems. And I hope it's obvious why Linus might not think upsetting the status quo, so that users of experimental filesystems can recover their drives formatted with an experimental filesystem, is worth it.
It certainly also doesn't help that Kent wants to remove the experimental label from the fs just so he can push updates through quicker, seemingly disregard the actual state of the filesystem. Also throwing shade at btrfs every chance he gets, certainly isn't endearing him to anyone.
mdedetrich@reddit
I don't know in what context he said it was a "feature", but the point in of itself is irrelevant because actual features (and by actual features I mean things like brand new drivers) have been pushed in the middle of rc phases.
The whole point is that people should stop getting so worked up about whether something is a bug or a feature and actually evaluate what the change is doing and what effect it will have.
And at the end of the day, that patch was allowing user/s to mount a broken bcachefs partition by enabling an online repair. Thats all that should matter
Linux itself has no idea what experimental means. If anything the experimental label, by common vernacular means that Kent should be free to push into the Linux kernel tree as many times as he wants as long as its self contained to bcachefs.
Also the filesystem having the experimental label had no bearing on why Linus made his decision, he in fact is treating bcachefs the same as any other filesystem in the linux kernel tree (which further begs the question, what is the experimental label meant to achieve/mean)?
Xmgplays@reddit
To quote the man himself:
so in the exact context that matters the most. Second: It doesn't matter if other actual features got pushed before, because standard praxis is that they don't. If you have reason to believe your feature is extra special, you ask once and if it's denied let it go.
Yes and the point is that that feature doesn't do anything that needs to be pushed in this rc cycle. There is no reason to not wait for the next one, as the bug fix got in and the, as far as I know, one person that needs his partition fixed can either wait a cycle or run a custom build in the meantime. Exception cause friction and this particular feature is not worth that friction.
Doesn't it? I'm pretty sure that if ext4 had a similar problem he would have actually made an exception because the value proposition is there.
As for the point of the experimental label: It makes it clear that the fs is experimental and therefore production usage is discouraged and, some might say, unsupported. Because it's experimental fixing partitions in use is low priority, because there simply shouldn't be anything important on there. You might argue that experimental means that Kent should be free to push more frequently, but I'd argue it's the opposite: Because it's experimental it doesn't really matter if it's delayed in mainline, people using it shouldn't have important stuff on it and if they need the latest and greatest, they can use a custom branch instead of mainline. That is a burden that can't be expected of regular users, but can be of users of experimental features.
mdedetrich@reddit
It matters massively, because it means that its not really a rule
Also not how it works, other people have asked multiple times and it their reasons are valid then the it gets included
Linus said himself the experimental label had no bearing in his decision so make of that what you will. And if experimental has any bearing, it would actually imply that Kent can post as many patches as he wants (regardless if they are bugs or not) as long as they are self contained in bcachefs, because that is exactly what experimental implies.
And this exact point has been raised by multiple other maintainers in lkml, if bcachefs is really experimental then by definition it doesn't have the same rules/processes as non experimental filesystems.
Its fine thats what you argue, but maintainers on lkml think the opposite.
You do realize that this reasoning is a self own, because it also implies that there is no reason NOT TO accept patches into bcachefs as long as its self contained because by your definition of experimental all hands are off.
You cant have your cake and eat it too, either the filesytem is experimental which means the expectations of stability from users is different which also means that the processes that enforce that stability no longer apply OR a filesystem is stable and it needs to strictly follow the processes because people have important data on it.
Also I have been a software engineer for 2 decades now, and in all my life experimental code/features (especially new features which bcachefs is) means that such code gets much higher code churn and has a completely different set of rules/processes than stable/maintained code. Its normal for experimental code to get frequent updates often in response to user bugs/issues because thats how the code then gets stabilized.
You seem to be arguing that bcachefs because of its experimental label means that it should be frozen in the kernel tree and only get updates sporadically, which is not how experimental new code works at all, thats in fact how old well established code is maintained.
Xmgplays@reddit
But why? Just because bcachefs is experimental doesn't necessarily mean all established processes should be disregarded, if for no other reason than ignoring established processes has costs of it's own. Yes bcachefs is experimental, yes users have different expectations of stability, but no that doesn't mean we have to ignore the process that enforces stability entirely.
No I'm saying that because bcachefs is experimental, user experience concerns are triumphed by almost all other concerns, not least of which are procedural ones. I'm arguing that the experimental label encompasses both "high churn"(and therefore potentially high breakage and bugs), but also "lower priority", and therefore potentially slower mainlining if other things of higher priority are holding it up.
mdedetrich@reddit
Because its a literal oxymoron. If you are claiming that bcachefs should follow the same rules/processes that is designed for established stable filesystems then bcachefs is not experimental by definition.
Sure, but for the patch in question none of those concerns were relevant. The patch was entirely self contained (it didn't touch anything outside of bcachefs) and it didn't break the kernel build.
If kent was hypothetically touching other pieces of the linux kernel then yes it would have been an entirely different story with actual legitimate concerns.
The patch in question was helping a user recover a broken bcachefs partition that was preventing him from booting a system. Aside from drastic security issues, this is as high priority as you can get. Just because its an experimental filesystem doesn't magically make the criticality dissapear.
And again if you do want to argue that its low priority, sure, but then why not merge it? Again you can't have it both ways.
Im sorry but none of your reasoning makes sense, your making contradictory arguments in an attempt to make this situation look as bad as possible for Kent by hand waving away all of the nuances.
Xmgplays@reddit
No. I am saying the opposite: Just because bcachefs is experimental doesn't mean all process should be discarded. There needs to be value to be gained from ignoring process and I don't see it in this case. There is no value to be gained from letting this feature through against standard praxis.
Yes it does? Because that's something you have to take into account when using an experimental filesystem. Things might break, therefore any data you store on it isn't something you value highly, therefore recovering that data cannot be high priority by definition.
Because that would disrupt process. It includes more code that needs to build, requires considerations that would usually be reserved for non-rc phases of kernel development(as I'm sure Linus didn't just blindly pull anything and everything from Kent concerning bcachefs) in a time period during which Linus doesn't usually have to make these considerations. It requires him to "mode-switch" into non-rc mode, if you will.
Finally something that I think I need to state here since it might not be clear: I don't necessarily disagree that giving Kent more leniency might be sensible for the development of bcachefs, however regardless of whether it might make sense to give it to him or not, currently the assumption has always been bcachefs doesn't have the license to push features in the rc window. Him trying to push things through regardless is creating friction, by requiring Linus et. al. to litigate whether he should be allowed to do so during the time period that should be reserved for fixing bugs in this rc. If Kent thinks he should be allowed to push features during rc-periods, he should clarify/request/discuss that beforehand in a separate thread, not while actively trying to "smuggle" a feature into rc-window. And if he gets rejected for whatever reason, state his reasons, but still comply, not disregard that decision.
that_leaflet@reddit
The Linux rules are super simple. You can solve "real problems", bugs, by submitting fixes during the rc period. If it's not a bug, submit it before the rc window.
The issue was that Kent was submitting features during that rc period. Whether the features are good or not is irrelevant, the point of the rc period is to get everything stabilized before realize and working well, not to introduce new complexities.
mdedetrich@reddit
The rules are simple, the interpretation of what is a bug is not
This "feature" was a bug fix allowing a user to mount a broken bcachefs partition by doing an online repair.
People can argue until the cows come home what is a bug and what is not, but at the end of the day the processes is meant to facilitate objectives, and one of those objectives is providing bug free code in which case this interpretation of the process failed.
Oh and in case its not clear, much more clear violations of the rules have been pushed into the kernel without any questions. I am talking about actual real features, i.e. full on new drivers being submitted in the middle of rc phases have been accepted.
Again, these are not rules. These are rough guidelines, they get broken all the time, multiple times per rc in fact.
Xmgplays@reddit
That's a feature. Not a bugfix. The bugfix was preventing the partitions from breaking. Recovering them is most definitely a feature.
I think you mean succeeded(or would have, anyway, not sure if the patch in question ended up in there or not after the whole drama). The bugfix solving the bug was not under contention, if it got in then we would indeed have code with fewer bugs. Including online repair would not have decreased bug count and in fact might have increased it if it contained bugs of it's own.
polongus@reddit
we get it, you have koverstreets fist up your ass
mdedetrich@reddit
I know thats what you are dreaming of but this isn't the subreddit for kinks like that
polongus@reddit
piss off sockpuppet
neverending_despair@reddit
It wasn't even pedantic Kent pushed features and it wasn't the first time... features that touched a lot more than bcachefs. You stans are really something else...
Franko_ricardo@reddit
Were you able to read the exchange in the first place between overstreet and the kernel maintainers?