Flush door handles are the car industry’s latest safety problem
Posted by testthrowawayzz@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 301 comments
Posted by testthrowawayzz@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 301 comments
Any_Following_9571@reddit
Flush door handles is just fixing a problem that never needed fixing.
gumol@reddit
car makers have been working on minimizing aero drag for decades
Any_Following_9571@reddit
And yet most people are driving SUVs and pickup trucks as their daily drivers.
Spicywolff@reddit
Sure. but imagine a no fucks given engineering team vs today’s cognizant of aerodynamic gains mentality. The same truck that in the early 80s would maybe get 10 to 8 miles per gallon is getting 18 ish nowadays. Huge improvement for a giant SUV
ExtruDR@reddit
It's even worse now, because we (and they) understand aero, yet still put out huge and gaudy cars that completely undermine any sort of efficiency.
I know that it is a function of the market, but all auto makers are guilty.
Let's talk about a somewhat progressive auto Company: Rivian:
Flush door handles. EV vehicles only. Very eco, right? except that they design their large SUV vehicles with big, manly vertical grilles, etc. because "rugged" or "wanna-be Defender" or whatever. Mind you, if I had the money I would prefer a Rivian to an actual new Defender, or an Ineos Grenadier, but I would more because the Rivian is faster and more smooth rather than ecological reasons.
CrimsonFury1982@reddit
The Rivian pickup has a drag coefficient of 0.30, which is the best of any pickup on the market, even amongst electric pickups.
Most ICE pickups are around 0.50 - 0 60
bearded_dragon_34@reddit
To be fair, automakers have to balance a mix of making cars that are appropriately efficient in terms of shape and things people actually want to buy. Most people prefer their SUVs be fairly boxy and rugged-looking, and they’re pretty efficient for what they are.
GGCRX@reddit
Also to be fair, we were marketed into wanting big trucks and SUVs because they represent higher profit margins and lower safety/environmental requirements for the automakers.
There was a time when no one wanted a pickup truck unless they needed it to haul things. We pulled campers with sedans and, with most people only needing something bulky hauled every once in awhile, we just rented a truck or paid for the delivery.
Few people wanted SUVs either - the claim that the Ford Explorer launched a new bodystyle that set the world on fire is bullshit. We had SUVs as far back as the 1960s, we just didn't call them SUVs back then.
And they weren't overly common. Maybe if you were a serious hunter who did like, 2 week trips in the wilderness you'd have one to haul all your crap in and haul the dead bear out, but most people still drove sedans and if they wanted more cargo room they got a station wagon.
No_Cherry_1423@reddit
this is such a tired angle. SUVs, in reality specifically crossovers, are popular globally because they are just a car but trade higher seating position/comfort for slightly worse handling. Its not propaganda, people just prefer the comfort and are willing to pay like \~$1 to 2k USD more for it.
Not mentioning cargo space because hatchbacks, which brings the greatest example of the Subaru Crosstrek v. Impreza. Its literally the same car but lifted, Crosstrek sells 5 times as much.
ExtruDR@reddit
You are wrong. It is ALL marketing.
In the US (specifically) it because quite attractive for US manufacturers to push SUVs (because the Asian companies didn't have competitive products at a time when they could not compete in any other segment).
People felt "bullied" on the road because they couldn't see over SUVs, there was a huge marketing push... Rugged, macho, cupholders, more "stuff" etc.
I literally managed comfortably in a VW Polo (with also a 3-cyl 1.0 liter engine) with my family of four with luggage for like a three week vacation, yet at home we "need" a three row SUV with 350hp min.
No_Cherry_1423@reddit
Are you going to address what I said or just repeat cliches? You’re talking as if the Toyota Grand Highlander is replacing everything when in reality its the RAV4.
ExtruDR@reddit
These concepts are oft-repeated because they're true. You may refuse to see it, but it IS a matter of fact.
Your perceptive is very limited if your "small" is Rav4 and "big" is Grand Highlander.
Not too many years ago I had a Toyota Yaris Cross rental. Is that an SUV? I mean, it's raised over a Yaris? So I guess it IS an SUV. How much smaller is this than the current Rav4?
My mother-in-law's entry into SUV life was a Build Encore. THAT is a small SUV. A total piece of trash compact car that was designed to look a little taller. In reality it is no more than a Golf with a weak-ass engine and much cheaper everything, except the chrome trim, but because it is taller an old boomer feels comforted on the road.
No_Cherry_1423@reddit
Dimensionally the RAV4 isn’t as long as the Camry (comparable) but is taller and like what 300lbs heavier. The cars they are replacing are smaller, but not to the degree you are implying (“350 hp” beasts or whatever.)
ExtruDR@reddit
It is not just about footprint or weight, it is also about visibility and just the general posture of the thing. SUVs, from my point of view, are a result of a kind of arms race of height and size in the American suburbs.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Is it wrong for people to want to feel safer?
ExtruDR@reddit
It is just a feeling and by putting yourself in a larger vehicle unnecessarily you endanger others.
It is selfish in other words.
No_Cherry_1423@reddit
This is honestly more a problem with large SUVs than the dominant crossovers. Crossovers do have a higher rollover risk though.
GGCRX@reddit
I'll address what you said. SUVs are not more comfortable than cars. They're a lot better than they used to be, but when they first got big, they rode and drove like trucks and even cheapo mid-size sedans from Chevy were more comfortable to ride in.
Now the comfort level is equal to many cars, but not equal to cars in their price range. People pay more for a Yukon than they would for a Lexus ES. and sometimes more than they would for an LS, and I'll put Lexus up against the GMC any day of the week.
But they don't buy the Lexus as often as they buy the Yukon. Why? Because they think they need a suburban battlewagon. And what gets people to think they need shit they don't need? Say it with me: Marketing!
No_Cherry_1423@reddit
The comfort derives from seating position. SUVs can be more upright and have more head space. Benefits tall people and the elderly. I didn’t used to take this super seriously but I actually recently switched to a Ford Escape (because hybrid to cut down gas costs + union made) and the seating position has actually helped my back and knee soreness a lot.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Depending on which Lexus we're talking about, they outsell Yukons, Tahoes, Suburbans, etc. even in the US.
cubs223425@reddit
Those are, of course, self-inflicted problems. People say the need the higher seating position in traffic, then become the reason the next person needs a high seating position in traffic. Now, everyone's in a lifted vehicle and no better for it. My great grandparents were driving Oldsmobile and Buick sedans into their 70s and 80s without griping about seating position or the stupid gripe about "I need it to be lifted so I can get in/out." Society managed to make it, what, 80 years with cars as the standard, but these weren't problems?
Most all of the "necessities," would solve themselves if it weren't for marketing. If you need the storage space, you can get a hatchback/sportback sedan. If you want more ground clearance, that varies with cars as well. In the end, this stuff has become a moronic lifestyle experience over anything else. You're not convincing me all of these people in their 20s and 30s with no more than one child need a 3-row SUV that's so tall it can drive over a Prius.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Don't forget how tall most cars were pre-1955ish.
AKADriver@reddit
Entirely true, but when they got lower in the sixties there wasn't any sort of mass revolt among buyers or complaints in new car reviews. Everyone praised the new lower, wider designs, in fact, as technological improvements. You'd be hard pressed to find someone in 1961 who traded their '55 Chevrolet wagon for a new Suburban because the new '61 wagons were too low.
Drzhivago138@reddit
True, but that was when the average new car buyer was in their 30s, not 50s+. And the interstates and other highways were brand new and smooth, not pothole-ridden.
AKADriver@reddit
America had far more miles of dirt and gravel roads back then.
ExtruDR@reddit
I wholeheartedly agree.
Sedans, and if people actually needed more space, hatchbacks or station wagons.
Higher ground clearance is not a practical choice, it is a styling choice.
LordofSpheres@reddit
Is higher ground clearance not a practical choice for those in snowy environments, those with hobbies which involve rough roads, those who live in areas with poor road maintenance, or people who have steep driveways or gutters?
Surely those are all practical reasons to desire a greater ground clearance.
ExtruDR@reddit
All justifications. All edge cases.
I live in the upper Midwest and know the environment well. I can tell you that most people do not go anywhere that isn't plowed. Do you think that the typical suburban "mom" is able to drive over any show covered surface at all? I don't think so. Sedans, rear wheel drive Miatas, etc. all manage to do fine in that environment.
Keep in mind that the people that are stocking stores and pumping gas during winter storms, etc. all drive things like busted up NIssan Altimas and Chevy Impalas.
LordofSpheres@reddit
Are practical reasons not justifications? How is one supposed to make a choice without reasons which justify a decision?
Maybe people don't go when it isn't plowed. Sometimes people don't have a choice. The typical suburban mom (sidebar: why the fuck is "mom" in quotes?) absolutely can get caught out on roads that aren't plowed, and they are absolutely capable of having emergencies that require them to go over unplowed roads, and they are also human beings who can, in fact, have skills.
I've watched a thousand Miatas and everything else get stuck in snowdrifts that I could walk right over (in RWD, with no sand in the bed) because I had the ground clearance to go over it and they didn't.
Yeah, a normal sedan can make it a lot of the time. It's sure as shit easier when you're over the snow and not in it.
What about gravel fire roads? What about the fact my driveway entry is too steep for most cars? What about the shitty-ass roads near me? Why are these practical considerations not, in fact, practical considerations, but instead apparently spurious post-hoc justifications?
ExtruDR@reddit
These are all edge cases. By justifications, I mean things like how you hear about how much someone really needs a truck, but in reality they never actually move around drywall or bags of mulch or anything.
LordofSpheres@reddit
But they're not edge cases, they're things real people really encounter on a daily basis that are practical considerations they need to deal with.
I know what you mean, I just disagree fundamentally with your conclusion. How often are you moving 5 people in a 5-seat sedan? Surely that's a justification, and you really just need a moped and some winter gloves.
ThePretzul@reddit
Trucks and SUVs could actually be FAR more aerodynamic if it weren’t for backwards U.S. pedestrian crash safety regulations.
It’s pedestrian crash safety regulations that have created the 5+ foot tall front hood with a vertical front grille/bumper down from there looking like a brick wall. You have any significant forwards protrusions from the front of a vehicle and once you get up to the hood you’re required to have minimum clearance values between the hood and the engine/equipment below it.
It results in abominations that are both LESS safe for pedestrians (because drivers can’t fucking see them past the long, flat, and very tall hood and because they’re getting ran over by a brick wall instead of something they could potentially take a glancing/rolling blow off of) and ugly as sin. These changes are directly driven by incomprehensibly bad safety regulations written with good intentions by people who genuinely have no clue what actually would be safe for pedestrians so they just blindly slapped shit like “pokey bits bad, crumple zone good” on a piece of paper and called it a day.
Drzhivago138@reddit
I was under the impression the US had no pedestrian safety regs at all.
mopar39426ml@reddit
Oh, they exist... They're just awful.
Pedestrian safety is one of the things that killed the pop-up headlight.
OvONettspend@reddit
They went away because they were a compromise between the asinine lighting standards that the Feds required and designers wanting wedge shapes. If composite and projector LEDs existed in the 70s-90s I guarantee popups would have never existed. They’re also unreliable, heavy, and ugly
QcRoman@reddit
How many first generation Mazda Miatas with defective headlights have you ever seen?
OvONettspend@reddit
Unless people are purposely leaving them up and blocking their line of sight for “cuteness”, quite a lot
Drzhivago138@reddit
In other countries, maybe. In the US, they're still legal. They mostly went away because the reason they were invented in the first place (US's antiquated lighting requirement for sealed beams) was rescinded in 1983.
adudeguyman@reddit
There were still plenty of cars that had popup headlights after 1983.
ThePretzul@reddit
There were still popular cars with pop up headlights in the 2000’s lol
ExtruDR@reddit
To your point, stainless steel "knives" in the form of CyberTrucks are on the roads as we speak.
ThePretzul@reddit
They have a vertical front face without protrusions, and the front hood has plenty of clearance underneath it before you reach any hard contact points. Ergo US pedestrian safety regs actually love it.
OprahFtwphrey@reddit
lol you boomed him
ThePretzul@reddit
You were under the wrong impression.
The US just has regulations that make things less safe for pedestrians while ALSO making vehicles that are ugly and objectively worse to drive due to severely impaired visibility.
SNRatio@reddit
That accounts for about 4 inches out of that.
LordofSpheres@reddit
Yeah, trucks just... have to be big.
32" tires, so that's 16" to the centerline.
Let's call it an IFS truck, half ton, so 9" ring gear, but off to the side, but above centerline to make room for suspension travel ... Call it another 4".
That's 20".
A 5.3L L84 V8 is 32.2" to the top of the intakenfrom the bottom of the oil pan. Call that 30" with some finagling and packaging.
We're at 50". That's pretty much the present height of hoods, especially once you add in stuff like body panels or any pedestrian safety clearances.
Any_Following_9571@reddit
Agreed. But if I had money I’d probably just buy a 911 or a custom painted Miata.
HideyoshiJP@reddit
If I had money, tell ya what I'd do, I'd go downtown and buy a Mercury or two.
marko719@reddit
That's it? If you had money, you'd do two Mercury's at the same time?
Snarktoberfest@reddit
Crazy bout a Mercury.
ExtruDR@reddit
Goes without saying. My household's third car, in a world where I have the means, would be a 911.
SavageryRox@reddit
going to (politely) play devil's advocate here.
In bringing up Rivian, wouldn't you say that's a lifestyle vehicle? Lifestyle vehicles never make the most sense or efficiency. Think off-roaders, non-work trucks, sports cars, etc.
If the end goal was efficiency & nothing else considered, wouldn't every single car be an EV tear-shape blob? Everything would look similar to Tesla, Mercedes EQE, etc because that's the most efficient & aerodynamic design.
The issue with life-style vehicles is that they aren't the most efficient. I think the point of design cues like flush door handles is to make these life-style vehicles as efficient as possible, without compromising what makes them a life-style vehicle.
R1S owners are getting 2.2-2.4 Miles/Kwh. Model X owners are getting 2.8-3 Miles/Kwh. There's still a massive difference, largely due to the aerodynamic design. I think the question is whether the design of life-style vehicles like the Rivian are with the dip in efficiency.
just my two cents. I could be completely off the mark here.
jehsn@reddit
I don’t think this is a good example to illustrate your point. Despite the “big, manly vertical grilles,” the R1T has a class-leading Cd of 0.30. That’s way better than both the more conventionally designed F150 Lightning (0.40) and wedge-like Cybertruck (0.34).
ExtruDR@reddit
I really don't know much, but I suspect that Cd is also relative to frontal area.
RedAero@reddit
Not relative, it's literally the coefficient (of drag). Drag force = Cd * frontal area.
In other words, a low Cd means fuck all if your frontal area is half a football field.
gimpwiz@reddit
I love the advertisement of super low coefficients of drag on huge brick cars. It's like, "within this highly un-aerodynamic shape, we did the best we could." Fine, but don't advertise it as aerodynamic... it's just less bad than it looks like, not, yknow, good.
LordofSpheres@reddit
If they got a low CD, it means it is aerodynamic. A shape with a CD of 0.3 is low drag relative to most shapes. Most recent Corvette gens are in that area. That's the whole point of a drag coefficient - so you can understand how aerodynamic a shape is, regardless of size.
gimpwiz@reddit
haha yeah this is exactly my point.
"My box shape SUV has the same coefficient of drag as your corvette!"
stares blankly for a while, looks between the two cars ".... ok"
jehsn@reddit
Is this supposed to be some smarmy own? I listed a bunch of trucks. A truck with a low frontal area is a ute.
ExtruDR@reddit
You can take it however you want. I literally fucking said that I don't know how Cd works.
My general point about big vehicles being less aerodynamic, I think stand, regardless of how much better we've gotten as shaping them.
to11mtm@reddit
Sooooooo... I'll try to be more productive, esp since these folks are being weird and non clarifying with their replies to some extent...
For someone who isn't familiar with fluid dynamics, I would say "As a baseline you can start by considering the height and width of the shape and some of that can be a baseline but then you have to look at the angles".
And then suggest a peek at the 'shape vs drag coefficient' images in this wikipedia on Drag Coefficient to have some good ideas of how different shapes overall can have an influence on it...
It's not just about the surface area at any given point but also the shape of things that can have an impact on drag; that's part of why so many vehicles have gotten 'ever more slopey' from the front to the back in a teardrop-ish-awy; it's good for structural integrity in rollovers, it's good for aero...
on a vaguely related note I have seen twice in the last two weeks an earlier model Ford Escape and a Bronco Sport in the same parking lot, side by side... and if you did a 'flat hood' on such Escape you could start trying to cosplay a Bronco Sport just to show the weird full circle...
But I mean there's other tricks you can do. Elsewhere in thread I mentioned that TBH Maverick definitely has some interesting yet effective design to minimize drag but hey I love jank and if it works I don't care. [0]
[0] - I will note, migrating insects do not play well with the drag, they primarily wind up on the windshield...
apintofpantaloni@reddit
Yeah my Range Rover has a Cd of 0.30 also. Also has flush door handles I hate.
sulliwan@reddit
The new Ram 1500 has a lower drag coefficient than a Ferrari Testarossa. It's absolutely mind-boggling how much better our understanding of aerodynamics has got in the last 40 years.
gimpwiz@reddit
Should point out that many sports cars have mediocre drag coefficient because they are purposefully designing for downforce, and downforce means higher drag. The Viper ACR is slower to accelerate than the same car without all the aero. It's faster around a track, though, and not insignificantly.
Granted, I am not sure how much downforce was engineered into the Testarossa.
_galaga_@reddit
Thinking back to the compute/sensor technology available at the time it's probably safe to say the '80s Testarossa was primarily designed for style. Even the F1 cars of the time weren't aerodynamically that advanced compared to modern day.
duke_blob@reddit
Not due to aero, that's all due to Internal Combustion improvement most notably electronic fuel injection.
Spicywolff@reddit
I never claimed that today’s advancements are just from aero. But there’s a big gain compared to today’s air dynamics versus the older days.
Secret-Teaching-3549@reddit
Also has a lot to do with engine technology.
Any_Following_9571@reddit
The average drag coefficient on the average vehicle on the roads these days is unnecessarily high, because every company right now gets us to buy larger vehicles even if we don’t need them.
gumol@reddit
car size has nothing to do with drag coefficient
pvdp90@reddit
Frontal Cross section is a fairly important part of drag however
marbroos99@reddit
True, but a big car with a low coëfficiënt of drag is still better than a big car with a high coëfficiënt
pvdp90@reddit
Yes, but a small car with good coefficient is better than both
michal_hanu_la@reddit
Thank you for the diaereses, but the second one is misplaced, because the i and the e there are not sounded separately.
marbroos99@reddit
This is what my Dutch autocorrect made of it, and I couldn't be bothered to fix it
bigloser42@reddit
A møøsë once bit my sister.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
True, but drag coefficient is the second piece of the drag equation.
gumol@reddit
Correct.
Any_Following_9571@reddit
Ok, drag force. Drag force is the more important number but that’s just my opinion.
UngusChungus94@reddit
I don't think car companies are that powerful. They just make what sells.
Any_Following_9571@reddit
I have news for you.
UngusChungus94@reddit
They mind controlled us and that's why we don't get sedans anymore? Or what?
Any_Following_9571@reddit
Kinda yeah. They make more money selling larger cars. Nowadays eople want larger vehicles with more capability than they need even if they have to finance it. Most Jeeps are never taken off-road, most pickups are doing pickup things 95% of the time. Every other 7 seater Suburban or Escalade only has 1 person in it 50% of the time. The percentage of income that the average American spends on their vehicle is out of hand.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Oh, it started long before that.
Spicywolff@reddit
So we can just make a suburban the shape of a brick and barn right? Efficacy be damned because the consumer doesn’t want small size?
Someone should inform Tesla that their model X is too drag efficient and to just not bother with aerodynamics.
Just because a car is big dimensionally. Doesn’t mean it has to have the aerodynamics of an Amish barn.
Drzhivago138@reddit
I mean, it is a pretty efficacious model. It's also fairly efficient for its size, high 20s MPG with the diesel.
Spicywolff@reddit
Right it’s efficient now but with the common gas engine, imagine how much worse it would be if the engineers didn’t have to bother with fuel efficiency.
Where they can just not care about aerodynamics. We would lose a big percentage, which is a step in the wrong direction in my opinion.
Drzhivago138@reddit
I agree, if people are going to keep buying big vehicles, it's best to make them as efficient as they can be while maintaining utility.
RodRAEG@reddit
Yeah but that's not just aero. Engine efficiency and transmission gear count have had a much bigger impact. You're talking about an era where some vehicles were still carbureted, and automatic transmissions were 4-speeds at best. Now direct injection is the norm and transmissions can have up to 10-speeds. Hell, Mercedes once put a modern diesel drivetrain into an old boxy 190e, and it ended up being faster and more efficient than the current C-class with that same engine.
Spicywolff@reddit
Absolutely but in this case we are talking about aero considerations vs just yolo make it a barn drag coefficient.
It’s a big enough % of overall efficiency that it shouldn’t be over looked. But I won’t do flush door handles lol. I’ll take the MPG hit
RKRagan@reddit
I can't imagine it's that big if done right. It only really matters above 60mph. Rolling resistance has a bigger affect. And since all cars are heavier now than ever before, that too has a bigger impact that the drag from a door handle. But they are heavier because of increased safety standards, which is also what should take precedence over a small decrease in drag. I worry about my sister's car with it's electric handles, I even got her a window break tool just in case.
DerangedGinger@reddit
I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee. I have no clue what aerodynamic means.
Spicywolff@reddit
Haha I hear that. I had a 5.2 ZJ and that thing would wiggle all over at speed. Never felt slow but I definitely felt it didn’t cut through the air like modern cars
Drzhivago138@reddit
Whichever gen of GC you have, it's a slippery fish compared to any other Jeep model of its era.
kiakosan@reddit
You also have to consider the engines in the 80s were all either carbed or throttle body fuel injected, probably had only a few gears with a terribly inefficient automatic transmission, really inefficient catalytic converter etc. Sure aero helps, but I think the bulk of the reason we have better mpg now is improvements in technology especially engine efficiency. Direct injection, electric power steering, better tolerances all add up
Spicywolff@reddit
Definitely I think the engines and drive trains will have a bigger % impact, but aero contributes a decent % where without it. It would be very hard to keep the American displacements we like
Logitech4873@reddit
That's not true at all.
CouncilmanRickPrime@reddit
And they are not only big, but pickups in particular and large SUVs are really boxy. There's basically no attempt at aero.
roox911@reddit
They are still huge beasts, but your statement is totally wrong.
For instance a modern ram1500 has a drag coefficient of around .34, the 90s model was 0.50.
Hell the 2025 1500 has a better drag coefficient than many '80s sports cars.
EicherDiesel@reddit
Frontal area is just as important as drag coefficient as both multiplied form the resulting drag area. Or vice versa, improvements in drag coefficient are negated by cars growing larger. The 80s sports car still produces way less drag than the 80s sports car despite having a worse drag coefficient and the 90s ram probably is equal to the modern one as the improvements in coefficient is just used to "buy" more frontal area, fuel consumption would be way down if it also would have kept the smaller seize.
LordofSpheres@reddit
If we take the CD number of 0.5 to be accurate for the 1990 (1st gen) Ram, which is 79.5"x70" frontally, it has an effective frontal area of 19.3 square feet. The 2025 Ram (82"x77.6", 0.34CD) has an effective frontal area of 15 square feet. That's 78% the drag force (a 22% improvement) as compared to the 1990 model at equivalent speeds.
So, no. Not really. The size really hasn't changed enough to make it an overall penalty. Modern aero shaping is hugely effective.
Drzhivago138@reddit
The OEMs have been making a lot of tweaks over the years to large pickups/SUVs to address drag. Notice how almost all tailgates now have a plastic lip acting as a little spoiler. They're including similar spoilers on the back side of the cab to reduce turbulence over the bed, and of course the air dams are getting lower and lower in front.
Any_Following_9571@reddit
Innovating only to make more money.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Can you blame them?
GGCRX@reddit
Can I blame states for banning Kei trucks? Yes, absolutely. As long as motorcycles are legal why the hell are small cars not? Yeah, I know, crash testing, but try crash testing a Ninja and see if the dummy survives.
If we're so worried about motorist safety then we should be consistent and ban motorcycles. Otherwise we should be smart and recognize the only person the Kei car driver is hurting in a wreck is himself, and if motorcyclists can make the choice to put themselves in more danger, car drivers should be able to as well.
Drzhivago138@reddit
That was meant for the first sentence, before your sneaky edit.
GGCRX@reddit
Are you accusing me of editing your post? What are you talking about?
Drzhivago138@reddit
I'm accusing the other user of doing it, and I didn't think to look at the usernames before responding, so that's on me.
When /u/Any_Following_9571 first made that comment about 5 hours ago, the entire comment before their ninja-edit read:
So I'm asking, can we blame OEMs for wanting to make more money?
Any_Following_9571@reddit
Yeah actually we can. You obviously have no understanding of the role of car dependency on quality of life.
GGCRX@reddit
Eh. We live in a capitalistic society. We go apeshit any time someone suggests maybe capitalism isn't the best way to do things 100% of the time.
We can't then complain when the OEMs want to make more money because that's the whole point of capitalism - everyone stepping on everyone else trying to claw their way high enough up the ladder that they don't fall off completely when the bad times come.
I don't blame the OEMs for wanting to make more money, that's their job. And it's government's job to make sure they're only allowed to make money in fair ways, but the government hasn't been doing its job in that regard for more than half a century.
Any_Following_9571@reddit
Why make it illegal to drive on road though? We allow people to ride motorcycles and bicycles which is orders of magnitude more deadly.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Bicycles are banned from interstate highways. As for motorcycles, they've essentially been grandfathered in.
Any_Following_9571@reddit
Kei trucks are illegal on any public road in many states, correct?
Drzhivago138@reddit
Correct. I'm not saying I agree with it.
FWIW, a lot of small towns across flyover country are now allowing side-by-sides and golf carts to be driven in city limits under 30 MPH, and kei trucks can be registered as side-by-sides. So it's not necessarily "any" public road.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Correct. I'm not saying I agree with it.
FWIW, a lot of small towns across flyover country are now allowing side-by-sides and golf carts to be driven in city limits under 30 MPH, and kei trucks can be registered as side-by-sides. So it's not necessarily "any" public road.
to11mtm@reddit
Maverick hybrid contrarian here, thing gets amazing mileage comparable to a shorter Rav4 hybrid let alone a smaller ford ranger of 15 years ago... (well so long as you aren't stupid enough to try a K&N 'washable' filter that fucks up your MAF...)
And yes you can see impacts of that when driving sometimes. One of my favorites is 'oh there is this water/condensation on the hood and it just keeps floating and pooling in one of the hood crevices rather than either falling out at a stop or at least yeeting itself onto the windshield', neither happens because those crevices are AFAICT to keep the hood from being a completely boring flat surface yet still the overall vehicle is engineered for as good a drag coefficient as possible.
And FWIW it has usable door handles too!
A more fun question is, whether the safety changes around minimizing injury to pedestrians over the last 25 years have led to fuel economy compromises in design. I'm honestly not sure yet I still feel like a lot of the shapes and sizes we see are trying to work with that requirement vs being able to cut through air.
(And maybe that's for the better with how some folks don't look at crosswalks before doing a left turn....)
mustangfan12@reddit
CUVs have gotten to the point where they are almost as efficient as sedans. Not sure if they have similar areodynamics though, but for EVs CUVs seem to have the best range
TooManyCarsandCats@reddit
This helps with the desire for larger vehicles by making them more efficient. I love my new electric suv/crossover thingy, and it’s pop-out handles.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Which makes finding these minute aero gains evermore important
gumol@reddit
Which are way more aerodynamic than they were decades ago.
icecream_specialist@reddit
I bet messing with the door mirrors would unlock way more drag reduction than door handles all while not affecting QOL
Drzhivago138@reddit
That's part of the reason a lot of companies would love to go to just cameras.
UpvoteMagnet99@reddit
Cybertruck wanted to ditch mirrors but the Feds wouldn’t let them
icecream_specialist@reddit
I'm gonna set aside my general disdain for cameras doing a mirror's job but where would they put the screen for those mirrors. It's only useful for aero if the screen is moved inside the cabin.
eZreazy@reddit
That’s exactly how it’s done. You can youtube a few cars that have this already in Europe. The response from most reviewers I can see is it’s a mixed bag. You lose all depth perception, it’s just a screen at the end of the day. Unlike the mirrors we have you get a different angle depending on where you look. It seems pretty great for night driving though.
Drzhivago138@reddit
On the models that have them, they put a screen inside at about the same position as the mirror would be.
icecream_specialist@reddit
After some adjustment period I can see that working on large vehicles with spacious cabins but wouldn't work great on more compact options both in terms of ergonomics and getting in the way of the A pillar b airbags, that's my conjecture at least
PrivateVasili@reddit
I know the Honda E had them and it was very small. No experience whatsoever to say how well they worked though. I remember watching a video on the car, and I don't remember it being a big complaint, so it couldn't have been too bad.
Drzhivago138@reddit
AFAICT they don't interfere with the airbags, since they're mounted at window level. The Ioniq 5 has them and it's not a large vehicle.
mCProgram@reddit
They would, but this assumes that they haven’t already optimized mirror shape within the US legal limits (they have, and do)
icecream_specialist@reddit
They've certainly put in some work but there is still such a wide spectrum of shapes of the leading "cone" it does not feel like they've prioritized it. Especially on trucks, they attach the stupid air dam on the bottom but then leave these giant flat paneled mirrors as is.
Let's see some F1 tech! At least funnel that air away from the door handles so they don't need to make them flush anymore
mCProgram@reddit
I do think trucks are the exception (maybe perhaps the rivian R1T) as they’re largely already so aerodynamically inefficient that it’s seen as a waste of time for say a 3500 with tow mirrors.
Funneling the air away from the door handles would make it worse on most cars actually as you’d be removing and then trying to reinstate your side boundary layer. That disturbance would cause a much larger wake, likely making more drag.
IMO, the best option for a compromise between usability and aero (at least on SUVs) would be a continual bump in the entire side of the car (imagine mid 2000’s stick on side protectors). Would allow for the attachment of that side boundary, but lets the boundary detach before the rear wheel instead of on the rear wheel, making for much less turbulence in that side wake.
Drzhivago138@reddit
You're half correct: it is considered a waste of time for HDs to worry too much about aerodynamics because once over 8500 GVWR, you don't have to worry about CAFE. Hence the iron block V8s that still get single-digit MPG.
With that said, the designers still do add many of the same aero features as they do with the lighter-duty models because 1. they're using many of the same pieces, and 2. commercial fleet buyers appreciate an extra .5 MPG when they're running several vehicles thousands of miles a year.
mCProgram@reddit
Don’t we love anachronistic american laws.
I wonder if there would be a market for an aero kit (not downforce, just reducing drag) for hotshot truckers.
Flush panel gaps, teardrop cover for the gooseneck, etc.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
They all want to get rid of those, but we don't seem to be there yet.
an_actual_lawyer@reddit
Lotus has come up with some real creative ways to hide them without an aero penalty, manufacturers just need to be creative: https://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/2006_lotus_exige_DSC09828-91541-scaled.jpg?fit=2048%2C1365
https://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/2006_lotus_exige_DSC09899-92327-scaled.jpg?fit=2048%2C1365
The_Crazy_Swede@reddit
The difference between 4 flush door handles and 4 normal handles are next to nothing.
I read somewhere about how someone did the calculations on a run of the mill EV sedan and came up with the conclusion that flush door handles increase range by less than one kilometer or about half a mile on a car with a 600km range.
Camera side mirrors however does make a measurable difference.
sc0lm00@reddit
Cars like the Corvette or even my 91 Beretta had basically flush door handles already. The difference has to be negligible.
RedAero@reddit
The Model T often doesn't even have door handles.
gaius49@reddit
On my Cobra, the only door latches are on the inside.
that_motorcycle_guy@reddit
Look at the door handles from the 90s, they were flush and recessed. There is plenty of ways to make aerodynamic handles with no electronics. The 70s corvette is a novel design but could be improved.
SophistXIII@reddit
Not sure reducing your car's drag coefficient by 0.0001 is worth being trapped in your car in the event of an accident or, checks notes, heavy rainfall.
But that's just me
StopNowThink@reddit
More like 0.0001 but yeah.
Intel_Oil@reddit
And then theres the Opel Calibra, which still blows most modern Cars out the water.
RedAero@reddit
Cd of 0.26! The 1st gen Honda Insight only barely took its crown with an 0.25.
Hungry-Appointment-9@reddit
The same car makers who have been competing for decades to see who can cover their cars with more fake grills?
Word_Underscore@reddit
so my 1998 Accord and 2005 Acura RSX had resessed door handles, like you put your fingers inside the hole and lifted up.
Every vehicle I've had since had had the "yank and pull out" kind of handles, isn't this more drag??
GGCRX@reddit
Probably not. Airflow doesn't always behave like you'd expect. the handles themselves are aerodynamic and the recessed cup underneath them is shaped for the best airflow.
The Honda handles were probably less aerodynamic because they provided a place for air to get trapped under, and it takes energy to push it back out which your car has to use more power to push through.
Word_Underscore@reddit
Right, and with that, I can see how "yank and pull out", when designed correctly, would never trap air because there's no pockets like "finger in hole and pull up"
lurpeli@reddit
I mean my 2 series has flush handles with a gap underneath, sure there's probably some tiny drag, but not enough to matter.
BeachtimeRhino@reddit
Correct.
Vhozite@reddit
Might be pulling this outta my ass, but isn’t it for aerodynamics (which are a big deal of EVs apparently)?
gumol@reddit
yeah, the article says
Koil_ting@reddit
Which is quite frankly irrelevant compared to not only the potential safety risk but the very likely annoyance in unfavorable conditions and them failing to function.
GGCRX@reddit
Yeah, this is the biggest problem with the pop-out fully flush handles. A lot of Tesla drivers in cold areas are frustrated about the icing issue.
Honestly if they're going to do handles like this, it makes me wonder why they don't just use door poppers and eliminate the handle entirely. You could have a backup pull cable enclosed behind a panel under the car for if the 12v battery dies.
mkbcity@reddit
✨heated door handles
reegz@reddit
One of the things that kept me from a Tesla or a mache e
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
Aero is a total sum game. Remove a bit here and there and it adds up. Obviously frontal area is the largest contributor but reducing drag along the sides helps a lot. Door handles like those on the C6 Vette or hidden buttons like on McLarens would be just as efficient if the goal is to remove the protrusion. For the C6 design, they can have a flap that covers the hole to prevent an area of low pressure forming and causing drag there. Tons of methods which are just as effective, not ugly, and won’t break as often.
Ithrazel@reddit
So actually quite a big number then. Like, much bigger than I expected. Like, a 1984 Mercedes w124 has a cd of 0.28 and a current e-class has a cd of 0.23, then we can say that about 20% of the improvement over these 40 years for the e-class aerodynamics is just the door handles alone.
e136@reddit
All the armchair aerodynacists in the comments disagree.
Vindicator9000@reddit
The Subaru XT had flush door handles in the late 1980s that were fully mechanical and functioned, more or less, just like regular door handles. They actually used the same door handles on the Vector W8. They have a spring-loaded flap that covers the recess underneath the handle, and could be made almost fully flush to the door.
They're trying to fix a problem that's already been fixed in a better way that's less prone to failure.
billythygoat@reddit
They break at 10-15 year old cars already, why do they need a motor to break as well.
Due_Percentage_1929@reddit
U can make them flush by design, like my 2024 Nissan Z
RiftHunter4@reddit
*Powered Handles
Flush handles cut aerodynamics drag and have existed in various forms for decades. Powered handles literally solve nothing.
Euler007@reddit
Yeah but think about the 400 feet more of range it gets you on a full charge!
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
You're talking same in electric open door button as well.
magus-21@reddit
If car manufacturers want flush doors, why not a spring-loaded door system that opens when you push it instead of messing with handles?
Novel-Mechanic3448@reddit
because they're trash and freeze shut. no thanks.
testthrowawayzz@reddit (OP)
in a collision, push to open would be a bad idea
magus-21@reddit
Why? If anything they're probably more likely to pop open in a collision.
testthrowawayzz@reddit (OP)
you don't want the door to open during a collision as it increases the chances of the occupant being thrown out on the rebound.
There has been recalls to cars for latches where the door could unexpectedly open during collisions
Imaginary_Act_3956@reddit
IKEA-ass doors.
magus-21@reddit
Hey, man, IKEA makes good stuff. It's just that the people who buy them think they are better at putting shit together than they actually are, lol.
ExtruDR@reddit
Marketing. little motors that do robot things help sell toys to Boomer Doctors and layers that can buy these toys new.
They wanted TVs in every room and now we get screens in front of every car seat too.
mungie3@reddit
Just had a flashback to being unable to open my gas cap when it froze shut
Whywipe@reddit
Well I’ve had this happen multiple times with regular door handles too.
Koil_ting@reddit
Regular door handle you can get grip on and use some torque to potentially solve your issue.
gumol@reddit
way less ergonomic. you gotta push the handle, open the door, then grab the door by the edge and open it to your desired angle
UndeadWaffle12@reddit
Sounds like the problem is with electronic handles, and not flush handles. They don’t need to be electronic, the R35 GTR had mechanical flush fit door handles back in 2007.
willmontain@reddit
Exactly !! It is not the flush handle, which is kind of cool, it is making them electronic ... that is just STUPID. They do not affect drag significantly that is just marketing, can be a pain in icing conditions, they have their pros & cons, it is a styling choice. But the underlying function of a door handle is that it must open the door under last ditch, ohhh shit, conditions. It must be fail safe unless completely crushed. Kindig-It Design (custom cars) has been making flush handles for their cars for years and I'm pretty sure they are mechanical because many of those cars predate electronic gadgetry. So it is possible to be flush and be safe.
jawknee530i@reddit
My miata has mechanical flush for handles and I've never even thought of them being flush fit til today.
jahalliday_99@reddit
Morris Marinas had fairly flush fitting handles in the early 70’s. In fact they continued to be fitted to Land Rover products until the late 90’s 😎
Elvis1404@reddit
That same handle design is on a big chunk of European cars built between the 70s and the 90s. Also, in the 90s we got tons of other mechanical flush fitting handles like the beautiful ones in the Fiat Barchetta or the "hidden" ones on the Fiat Coupe
R_V_Z@reddit
Yes, and Morris Marinas are notoriously unsafe. You never know when a rogue piano will fall on you.
UndeadWaffle12@reddit
Yeah I wasn’t trying to suggest that the GTR was the first, it’s just what came to mind
jahalliday_99@reddit
Of course 🙂. The marina handles were iconic for all the wrong reasons 😂 made at the time of the worst of the British motor industry. But they soldiered on for decades.
testthrowawayzz@reddit (OP)
Minivans with power sliding doors have electronic door handles that look and work like traditional door handles, and they’re not a safety concern. With no power, they still unlatch and allow the door to operate manually.
Mathblasta@reddit
Honestly, minivan should be the standard by which we judge every other type of vehicle.
shloppin@reddit
Vacuums in the trunk for everyone, let’s get moving on that yesterday
fewjative2@reddit
I love my door handles and have yet to have a day where I thought I'd want them to be any different!
koenigsaurus@reddit
Shit, my 1990 Celica had flush door handles and I never had an issue with them. No reason door handle functionality needs electronics involved.
AKADriver@reddit
I'm not sure why the flush handle with recessed finger slot design that was everywhere in the '80s and '90s so completely disappeared. I know from an accessibility standpoint the big chunky pull handle is better, but it feels like the door handle on any random car from 1990 hit a nice middle ground between ideal aerodynamics and usability.
zxcvbmm@reddit
Mercedes had these in 1956
AKADriver@reddit
Oldsmobile also had them in the '60s.
JTR_35@reddit
I was going to say this as well. I dislike the electronic pop out type, but the lever tilting ones like GTR I'm fine with.
NCSUGrad2012@reddit
That’s how my friend’s model 3 is. You push it and it pops out so you can open it
bandito12452@reddit
Model 3 is electric release but yeah the design could easily be a manual lever
icecream_specialist@reddit
Those look like such a PITA to use. Not speaking from experience
OurBaseAssailed@reddit
Oh no it takes an extra 4 milliseconds to operate.
Imaginary_Act_3956@reddit
The Renault Mégane E-Tech's door handles are mechanical.....but they electronically pop out of the body.
If it doesn't pop up, you will just need to press a trapdoor and grab the door handle.
Phosphorus444@reddit
Never liked them. I don't know how manufacturers get away these unsafe designs like not having amber turn signals or putting a 5 feet tall wall on the front of their family haulers.
gumol@reddit
USA has no pedestrian safety regulations.
The situation is better in other countries.
anomaly149@reddit
The US is implementing a version of GTR 9, so it's coming. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/09/19/2024-20653/federal-motor-vehicle-safety-standards-pedestrian-head-protection-global-technical-regulation-no-9
Gas0line@reddit
I wouldn't really call the situation better tbh. Pedestrian safety regulations killed the GR86/BRZ in Europe but almost all massive SUVs are a-ok
Elvis1404@reddit
They were killed because the windshield's shape made it not able to fit Adas sensors, not because of their hood's shape
Gas0line@reddit
TIL. But that's even worse!
cereal7802@reddit
getting broad sided by a barn is preferable to being cleaved in half.
FuzzelFox@reddit
Hey now, yes they do! Hood ornaments have to bend over when you strike a pedestrian it's less likely to impale them! /semi sarcasm
brotrr@reddit
My Chevy Bolt EV has red blinkers at the very bottom of the rear bumper and I've had so many drivers simply don't notice I've been signalling to move over for like 10 seconds. They probably think I'm an asshole when I eventually cut them off.
Phosphorus444@reddit
I refuse to buy anything with less than 4 dedicated taillights and amber signals. It's dangerous to do otherwise.
Not_Bears@reddit
Because regulations are the devil!!
TheWarehamster@reddit
The Aston Martin DBS had flush handles that popped out when the front of the handle was pushed in. That was 2005. I distinctly remember that particular thing with the door because of Casino Royale. Not sure why it stuck out other than thinking it was neat.
gumol@reddit
dumahim@reddit
What a sad state of affairs where the Chinese look to be taking proactive steps ahead of much (all?) of the world for a safety issue.
EnaBoC@reddit
China has been ahead of the west (USA) in a lot of areas, especially things where govt regulation greatly benefits/looks out for the greater good of the society such as discussed safety.
World class public transit, beautiful & preserved national parks, optimal city planning, the "relative" lack of homeless.
It's only on reddit where people haven't travelled a ton that the same "china man bad, chinese quality = bridges will collapse" mentality keeps getting passed around.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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sicklyslick@reddit
China is the world leader on EV and cars in general.
It won't be surprising in a decade, all international standards are set in China first.
China already has a new CCCC battery standard for portable batteries. Portable batteries without the appropriate certifications are banned from Chinese airlines and security screening in China.
Staebs@reddit
Just wait until you look at their economic planning vs the West's lol. They've got a 50 year roadmap planned out while we can't look past 4 year election cycles. There is a reason they're calling it the Chinese century, and honestly they deserve it at this point we've dropped the ball super hard.
xlb250@reddit
Did their 50 year roadmap predict the real estate market crash?
testthrowawayzz@reddit (OP)
In related news, I also read that China is banning always on one pedal driving (reset to off on every start) for safety reasons.
Speculation from the news source I read it from says it might be because of people panic stomping on the accelerator pedal since they're used to leaving their foot there.
sioux612@reddit
One pedal driving is something that only properly works if you are alone in the vehicle, and in the end its less efficient than just coasting
If you've never been passenger of somebody who was using one pedal driving, imagine all the jerkiness of a normal drive, but you can't just coast.
And while you do regenerate some of the energy while braking, its not 100% and typically is less energy saved than when you accelerate
testthrowawayzz@reddit (OP)
I've heard a lot of people getting carsick as a passenger with the driver driving with OPD.
sioux612@reddit
I've once had an accelerometer installed in a car i drove and seeing everything as graphs was was helpful
Even high G isnt a big issue, if the increase of acceleration is somewhat reasonable. Thats the entire thing that makes teslas feel so god dann fast while getting same numbers as cars that feel less quick
And one big thing is moderation of acceleration and braking.
The single best thing you can do for both energy consumption and wellbeing of the passenger is coasting. Just don't touch anything, no G. With one pedal driving thats holding an exact position on the pedal and you have half the pedal distance to modulate the entire power range. With two pedals you have twice the resolution of input and even if you press both paddles (or all three) to the floor you should always come to a stop in any well built car
Sebas_2160@reddit
One pedal driving should just not even be a thing safety wise honestly. I'm all for innovation, but there's certain things that just don't need to be reinvented.
Ftpini@reddit
I loved it when I had my model 3 performance. It allows you to ensure you’re getting 100% of the possible regen while using 0% of the brakes. It was really great. I would have hated if I’d been forced to turn it on manually every drive.
nucleartime@reddit
Having tried one pedal driving, I would vastly prefer a 2 stage brake pedal (a resistance wall before physical brakes are activated) or a separate control (Chevy Bolt I think has a regen paddle).
It just makes it way too hard to coast. And my brain just likes the default state of no input means no output.
dimitriye98@reddit
To give an alternative perspective: as someone who primarily drives stick, I find the coasting behavior of automatics really uncomfortable and, though I haven't driven an electric car, expect that I would find one-pedal driving a lot closer to what I'm used to in terms of engine braking. (Yes, a manual will coast if you leave it in a high gear, but that mostly happens when at speed on a freeway where you're still not able to lift your foot too far off the gas.)
I think the correct answer is to leave it as an option. I also very much dislike this tendency to have options reset when the car is turned off and then started. A vehicle is a tool. It should do what I ask for when I ask it to. If I configure it a certain way, it should remain configured that way until I choose otherwise. The one automatic car I do drive, a Subaru Outback, actually resets AVH to off any time it's restarted. It's led to annoying situations where I forget to turn it on and the car starts forward on its own when I lift my foot off the brake pedal. Not too significant of course, it starts forward quite slowly with no gas input of course, but still not okay IMO.
xarune@reddit
My Leaf has one pedal driving but I rarely use it: it's hard to get the decel quite right outside of stop and go traffic.
But it does have a "heavy regen" drive mode (called "B" mode on many EVs). That is 2 pedal driving, but heavily kicks in regen when you get off the brakes. The end effect is basically the car drives somewhat like a manual left in a lower gear: quick accessible power and then heavy engine braking.
Ftpini@reddit
Took me all of half the very first test drive in the model 3. It really isn’t that hard to figure out how to coast. Of course if your pedal control isn’t very precise or consistent then I could see why you’d prefer a traditional brake pedal with Prius style braking.
nucleartime@reddit
I know how to coast with one pedal driving, it's just more annoying.
My pedal control is fine, it's just more effort than I want to go to when slogging through a commute.
Ftpini@reddit
I Can’t speak to the BMW but 99.9% of my commutes were spent issue free with autopilot doing everything. One pedal was never a thought during the slog portion of my daily commute.
donnysaysvacuum@reddit
Tesla drivers always say this, but it doesn't make sense to anyone else. You can easily avoid that with any two pedal driving setup too. Most EVs only use the friction brakes for emergency stops. Only Tesla doesn't have regen on the brake pedal.
Logitech4873@reddit
Tesla does have that on the Model Y now.
Ftpini@reddit
And I yet I don’t have a Tesla any more. I sold it after four years. Plenty of good reasons to want something else, but one pedal driving definitely wasn’t one of them. It was fantastic.
strongmanass@reddit
I don't see what the safety problem would be. It's learning curve for the driver, but it's not inherently less safe if implemented properly (brake lights coming on once the driver lets off the accelerator and the vehicle slows down).
EicherDiesel@reddit
Yeah, I'd even argue it's safer. Doing nothing makes the car actively decelerate vs not touching anything just resulting in coasting in a regular car. This lack of coasting makes for a less smooth driving though unless you actively try to do so. Driving behind an EV that's flashing its brake lights for no reason every 5 seconds is infuriating.
Either_Wear5719@reddit
I've had to do post repair test drives on vehicles in 1 pedal mode and it's an infuriating and exhausting way to drive. Having to hold the pedal exactly still to maintain speed without accelerating, can't get jostled going over a pothole or uneven pavement or the vehicle either suddenly accelerates or brakes. Get cut off in traffic or something/someone runs in front of the car best of luck stopping. Absolutely no chance of coasting downhill. I'm convinced the system was developed by people who have never had to drive a car in less than perfect conditions.
frashal@reddit
Sounds like you need to develop some throttle control.
Firereign@reddit
I have personally never experienced sudden braking or acceleration from road imperfections - and I drive on very imperfect roads, in an EV with lightning fast throttle response, which will quite happily put down 500 horsepower in an instant, and also has fairly stiff suspension and silly wheels with rubber bands.
…?
You step on the brake pedal. Like in any other car. It’s still there, it still works, and it stops the car just as quickly as in any comparable vehicle, at the limit of available grip.
Yeah, you have to move your foot between pedals. As you would in any other car, in any situation where you weren’t already braking.
Personally, I can comfortably maintain my throttle at the right neutral position to maintain a constant speed downhill. Or at neutral/zero (no power, no regen) to coast.
I can understand others not liking the way that works, but it’s quite daft to say that there’s “no chance”.
To each their own. I personally love the degree of control that I get from mine, and I actively enjoy the finesse involved. I’ve also likely not driven some of the cars you have experience with, and I can believe that some implementations are worse than others.
EicherDiesel@reddit
My only experience with this system is mostly for the same reason (my personal cars are a couple decades old so three pedal driving) but I'd say after some getting used to it works pretty fine. Although of course some manufacturers have implemented it better than others.
HeyyyyListennnnnn@reddit
The difference is in reaction to unexpected situations because single pedal drivers are always judging if regen braking alone is sufficient before applying the brake pedal. In uncertain situations two pedal drivers will move their foot to the brake immediately, where single pedal drivers hover over the accelerator. The two pedal driver is ready if uncertainty becomes emergency while the single pedal driver is not.
ManufacturerBest2758@reddit
Modern automotive design is fraught with solutions in search of problems
the_other_guy-JK@reddit
Looking at you, touch screen HVAC systems.
Ohhh but you can slide it with your finger!
Excellent. Now it's never set where I want unless I take my eyes off the road or pull over/only adjust it further at a stop light.
robstoon@reddit
Having full one pedal driving that lets you come all the way to a stop without touching the brake is a bit problematic I think, because if you never normally have to use the brake then in an emergency the muscle memory isn't necessarily there. And there's some speculation that it can cause people to become confused in an emergency and end up stomping the gas instead of the brake.
xangkory@reddit
No. This isn’t an issue. You still have to use the brake in some circumstances. If you are doing 70 on a freeway and traffic suddenly slows down in one pedal mode you do not automatically come to a complete stop, the car still had momentum and you need to use the brake. Same is true if you are doing 45 in traffic and the light turns red. You use the brake a lot less but you still use it.
testthrowawayzz@reddit (OP)
It did come about when Tesla chose to implement regen braking that way instead of blended braking (IIRC).
Whether they can't (technical issues/patents/etc) or don't want to do it I don't know.
robstoon@reddit
It's the usual Tesla thing of, well that costs more money and it's not strictly necessary so we won't do it, even though it makes the car worse.
mrreiner@reddit
One pedal driving is pretty great tbh. It's very intuitive and I noticed my driving style is much more relaxed and defensive compared to before. I thought I would hate it but I never turned it off.
My father who's absolutely not a car person and in his 70s also seems to really enjoy it in his car.
I can imagine the people who accidentally stomp on it are the same type of people who drive through store windos because they thought the gear was in reverse.
blainestang@reddit
Changing back and forth from 2-pedal to 1-pedal is way more dangerous than just picking one and keeping it there, I would guess.
testthrowawayzz@reddit (OP)
I went back to the source. Switching back to off by default is part of the phase out, by 2027, opd will be banned (no regen to 0 on liftoff anymore)
blainestang@reddit
Stupid overall, but the intermediate time is extra dangerous, IMO. Just ban it. Don’t force the car to keep changing the mode as some dumb phase out.
Snazzy21@reddit
2 pedal driving existed for most of time, so good bye 1 pedal if that's the argument
NuclearReactions@reddit
Agreed
blainestang@reddit
I’m not arguing that there has to be only one option. I’m arguing that the car shouldn’t CHANGE which mode it is in once the driver sets their preferred mode.
My hypothesis is that forcibly changing the mode over and over again and potentially having the car act differently than expected is more dangerous than the car being locked into either mode, whether it is 1PD or 2PD.
bigbura@reddit
It's kind of hard to support these flush handles while crazy 22" wheels are on offer/installed as stock. Make up your mind, are we chasing drag reduction or not?!
Uncomplicate the access to the vehicle to speed getting help to those inside during emergencies by going back to pull handles. Seems simple but folks love to argue against their own safety 'because it looks nice'.
LordofSpheres@reddit
Big wheels can improve aero but also definitely reduce rolling resistance.
bigbura@reddit
I thought I read the gains from running a higher tire pressure had more to do with changes in sidewall profile and airflow than actual rolling resistance losses from the raised inflation pressure?
LordofSpheres@reddit
Inflation pressure decreases tire deformation which decreases rolling resistance, but the larger the rim and smaller the tire, the less pressure is needed to accomplish that same reduction. So you can have a bigger wheel at the same pressure and get pretty much the benefit of a higher pressure on a smaller wheel, if that makes sense.
There may be additional aero benefits from a less bulged sidewall but they should be smaller than the rolling resistance benefits for a car, though I couldn't swear to it.
mustangfan12@reddit
Thats amazing news, I hope China banning it will cause more EVs in the US to no longer have it
sicklyslick@reddit
Tesla might adopt it because they like to have one design for all regions to simplify manufacturing. But hard to say about the rest since I don't imagine American EVs are being sold in China besides Tesla.
mustangfan12@reddit
All the American brands and even European brands are in china. Although im not sure if they have seperate factories for the US and China. Or if they ship some American made cars to China
unmanipinfo@reddit
It sounds like a design problem not a 'flush door handle' problem, why are they 100% reliant on a circuit..
natesully33@reddit
After driving a Tesla for a while, it's surprisingly nice to go back to something with normal door handles along with a normal PRNDL and turn signals too. Maybe I'm just old, but mechanical and non-monostable controls just feel so much better to me, even when they are controlling something electronically. It's all just so much more intuitive.
I feel like the Ioniq 5 style handles, which are flush but also completely mechanical and can be operated without power at all, are a pretty good design. I suppose it does have framed windows though, Teslas and Corvettes use frameless windows which is one reason to do electronic door opening.
Drunken_Hamster@reddit
How are frameless windows a reason to do electronic door opening?
brinmb@reddit
enough time for windows to roll down out of the frame
Drunken_Hamster@reddit
That's not so much electronic door opening, though. Just an automatic window control system.
natesully33@reddit
Gotta lower the window before the door opens electronically to clear the seal. Well, or have a "seal" the window barely pushes against like a Miata, which isn't ideal for NVH.
Some cars do that semi-mechanically by auto lowering when you pull the mechanical door handle, but that's not as ideal a solution.
brinmb@reddit
now that you say it, I don't see why not have a sensor on a mechanical switch for the window...other than the cost. but we already have a sensor for open doors, surely they could use that...
testthrowawayzz@reddit (OP)
I agree with the assessment. If aero is really that big of a deal, switch back to the lift up door handles of the 90s.
Oh and also mandate easy to access mechanical door handles on the inside too. Nothing like tesla's hidden emergency release that needs disassembling door panels to access
Imaginary_Act_3956@reddit
BMW is already using 90s-style door handles on their newer models.
JournalistExpress292@reddit
Growing up I saw flush door handles as an old car thing and exposed ones as a modern thing and now it’s reversed, such an interesting phenomenon because you have to rewire your brain for that
Marshall_Lawson@reddit
mind if i ask how old are you? can you share pictures of examples?
i grew up in the 90s-00s and i get transitioning to seeing the 90s as "old cars" but I'm scratching my head at the idea you'd have to "rewire your brain" about it. Like for one thing most people get in and out of a variety of cars ranging from new to 30 years old.
turbo-cunt@reddit
They're electronic though, which is the entire problem this article is talking about
rtbhnmjtrpiobneripnh@reddit
Huh, neat. The new 5 Series and X3 it seems.
cereal7802@reddit
nah man, we need the door edge handles of the 80s/90s. maybe we can get the should strap to be motorized again too for shits and giggles?
https://platform.cstatic-images.com/xxlarge/in/v2/stock_photos/31e8ce9d-e014-4682-ae67-baf7ded16e72/326e322c-6de2-4e1d-88fd-22abcbb5ead8.png
flatpetey@reddit
But my interior aerodynamics!
rideincircles@reddit
Yeah. I am fine with flush four handles, but the rear seats of my 2018 model 3 means climb out the front or break windows in a worst case scenario.
NobodySpecial969@reddit
Complicating stuff for absolutely no reason
sioux612@reddit
While I generally believe that politicians should have little to no influence on vehicular safety decisions, they happen to have found something that does in fact cause an issue.
Now they just need to get rid of the idiotic idea that is one pedal driving, and remove the dangerous systems that keep moving the steering wheel on its own
Drzhivago138@reddit
Time really is a flat circle. 40+ years ago everybody went to flush door handles in the name of aerodynamics, then gradually went away once they found out all the issues they had.
donnysaysvacuum@reddit
What issues? The only problems Ive ever had with door handles were cheap materials. Recessed or flush handles don't have any inherent issues, besides maybe the elderly or people using gloves.
Dramatika@reddit
Does that means there’s a chance we get pop up headlights back
gumol@reddit
Pop up headlights are completely legal in the United States.
They just don't make sense. The only reason they were made is government regulations.
Drzhivago138@reddit
They mostly went away because the reason they were invented in the first place (US's antiquated lighting requirement for sealed beams) was rescinded in 1983.
IStillLikeBeers@reddit
Well, 40+ years is a long time and I would've hoped we could have engineered around those problems. But a lot of the problems are inherent.
Swagmoneysong@reddit
Lol
Sea_Cycle_909@reddit
Would flush door handles like the GM Ultralite be a better idea?
dudsmm@reddit
O, the latest safety problem are the laws about using your small screen in the vehicle, but it is ok to use the big ass screen to adjust the a/c while going 80.
Also, wonder why so many pedestrian die now. Trucks and 3 row SUVs. Also, overall crash fatalities should be dropping more that they are with airbags, auto braking, etc. They being held back by mass
arsinoe716@reddit
Not only flush door handles, also the mechanism to open the doors from the inside. Some cars have a button and a separate mechanical one hidden somewhere where it is difficult to find in an emergency. There should be a universal mandate on how these doors should open in case of an emergency. One should not be reading the owners manual to find those handles.
impossiblefork@reddit
I think the problem isn't that they're flush, it's that the flushness is implemented using electronics instead of mechanically.
It shouldn't be hard to construct a surface which is flush with the outside of the door and which can be pushed inwards to reveal something which can be gripped.
Excellent-Gur5980@reddit
I really liked how Ford integrated the door handle on the 2020 Lincoln Continental.
Carfr33k@reddit
Nautilus now.
kon---@reddit
But flush handles have been shown over 100k miles of mixed driving to save no fuel at all.
Organic_Acidd463@reddit
Strongly agree. I plan on getting a Rivian R1S and the electronic door release, especially on the inside is really putting me off. In an emergency I need to be able to force a door open and electronic mechanisms are far less reliable.
Enough-Scientist1904@reddit
I'm not buying a car with flush door handles. Nobody needs this
snail_forest1@reddit
the new pop ups
RiftHunter4@reddit
Article has a misleading title. The issue is powered door handles, not flush handles. Mechanical flush door handles does have existed in cars for decades. The obsession with powered handles is strictly a modern one and its something that no one really likes to begin with.
Careful-Combination7@reddit
I saw a car with the tucked in handles that lift up like my 1985 Camry. So fucking stoked.
Neumean@reddit
They are also an accessibility problem. A person with arthritis or similar will have a hard time opening doors with those doorhandles that you have to pry from the bodywork.
pbgod@reddit
If you want to be enraged, look into the new Audi A5's emergency handle situation.