Should I give away my app to my employer for free?

Posted by RDE_20@reddit | Python | View on Reddit | 282 comments

I work for a fintech company in the UK (in operations to be specific) however my daily role doesn’t require any coding knowledge. I have built up some python knowledge over the past few years and have developed an app that far outperforms the workflow tool my company currently uses. I have given hints to my manager that I have some coding knowledge and given them snippets of the tool I’ve created, she’s pretty much given me free reign to stop any of my usual tasks and focus on this full time. My partner used to work for the same company so I know they paid over £200k for 3 people to develop the current workflow tool (she worked for the finance team). I’ve estimated if I can get my app functional it would save the company £20k per month (due to all the manual work we usually have to do vs what I can automate). My manager has already said this puts me in a good position for a decent bonus next year (it wouldn’t be anymore than £10k) so I’m a little stuck on what to do and if I’m sounding greedy. Has anyone ever been in a similar position?

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282 Comments

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Pulsifer-LFG@reddit

Add bugs only you'll be able to find and fix then hand it over and see if they want to pay you to build & maintain it.

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ganian40@reddit

Same case.. I wanted to succeed in my support position for a big telco when I was 22. so I coded an incident management system for my department, since the one we had failed. They immediately made me sign a junior programmer contract and gave me an extra salary (1 month) as bonus.. Months later I knew they sold my code to another operator for 200k euros. When I complained about it.. they quoted the new contract. All intellectual creations belong to your employer.... bastards promoted me to include the clause offcourse. I didn't know better back then (2004). Since that unfortunate naiveness happened, I negotiate everything.

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Life_Clock_5311@reddit

It depends what is the company's main business and the policy about IP. Research your company policy. You may ask if there is an IP lawyer in your company. Most software companies own whatever you produce during the time you are employed with them. They will encourage employees to submit patents and discuss whatever agreement it comes with.

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antipawn79@reddit

Absolutely not. You probably, depending on your contract, not sell it to anybody else, but you should negotiate a licensing fee

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lvlxlxli@reddit

That was stupid mate.

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Vertyco@reddit

Not sure how much different things are in UK but id look through your employment contract if you have one and see if anything is binding there that would indicate if you created a tool under company time for the company that they would have rights to it. Also disclaimer I am not a lawyer, best of luck though

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zidanerick@reddit

This, if you have been developing it during work hours then it's work's asset. You could however negotiate for a higher wage/stock options in exchange for it's completion if you have spent significant time outside of work also developing it. It seems they are already at the table when it comes to bonuses, so I would see if you can sweeten the pot there and possibly get assurances (in writing) it will be used for staff efficiency and not used as a replacement for staff if you care about the people around you.

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james_pic@reddit

Depending on OP's contract, they might still own it if developed outside of their usual working hours. I've been in that situation, and my employer was happy to waive this in my case, but my goal was to open source the code, so it was revenue neutral for them. If you're happy for the outcome of this to be to use it to leverage better pay, a bonus, or a new role that involves continuing this work, then it probably doesn't matter that much what your contract says about this, but if you were hoping to take the IP with you and spin it out into a product that you sell back to them, then you need to have a clearer idea what position you're negotiating from - and may want to talk to a solicitor about this.

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rkhan7862@reddit

what made you want to open source instead of capitalizing on your tool?

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jaffster123@reddit

I can't speak for the OP, but I'm not desperate for cash and in the past have utilised many open source platforms and applications, all for free. It is good to give back to that community - it also means that you're not nailed to continue development for the foreseeable future. Once you're done you can just walk away and let someone else pick it up if there's an appetite for it. If everyone just saw the dollar sign when doing development work, we wouldn't have many of the tools that exist today. Linux wouldn't exist, for example.

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Tru5t-n0-1@reddit

A proper hacker, ideologically speaking 🫡

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Hefty-Flight8794@reddit

Respect your heart and stance 🙏👌

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james_pic@reddit

Whilst I'd say not all development has to make someone money, Linux and Python are maybe slightly muddled examples. Whilst both projects started out as hobby projects, much of the ongoing development work, is by companies who expect this work to have a positive impact on their bottom line (for example Meta and Microsoft saving on server costs with the work they've done on improving Python performance).

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FisterAct@reddit

probably built on top of software that had a licensing requiring open source.

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lost_send_berries@reddit

Even with GPL, if your users are all employees, then the "openness" only means making source code available to employees.

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plierhead@reddit

Even that is not required. If your only users are internal, then it hasn't technically been distributed at all.

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mrcaptncrunch@reddit

Open Source doesn't mean free or that the app and source has to be published.

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Thinker_Assignment@reddit

It's not like capitalizing is just a click of a button, it's often harder than building the software

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james_pic@reddit

It's unlikely there would have been much, if any, money to be made from licensing it, and attempting to do so would have meant launching a startup that I realistically expected to fail.

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mlhpdx@reddit

This is a common belief but not reflected in reality. The “carpenter’s hammer” view is that despite employment contracts if a carpenter uses his employer’s hammer to build a house on his own property out of materials he supplies, the employer has no claim on the house. So context matters.

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jaffster123@reddit

This. I did the same thing with my first tool, I got their agreement about open-sourcing the application, but it was begrudgingly agreed. The second one I learnt my lesson and developed it as open source right from the start, then adapted a version/fork for the work environment.

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L3onK1ng@reddit

That's exactly what I thought. Make a "plug-in" or "extension" on company time and computer, but have your original "main" app be only your own. Company owns the "extension" which is useless without the main app, that'll need it's licence be negotiated.

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Strong_Ad_5438@reddit

is this possible if the code is only python code under an ipynb notebook? as I am on a similar scenario where I have done half the hours creating my code outside of work hours meaning I am not paid

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klmsa@reddit

No, there's no way of protecting a notebook if it's already on company assets (unless no one knows yet and you delete it; even then IT could bring it back most likely). Also, if you used any company assets to develop it, it likely belongs to them, regardless of whose time was spent. It's also likely that a jupyter notebook doesn't contain anything that's very deployable/useful to the business without a dedicated developer to run it. The applications we're talking about are generally already in a GUI that most users can navigate (though not always).

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OverCategory6046@reddit

Courts can strike down unfair clauses, especially if they're too broad. Worth also taking into account

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RDE_20@reddit (OP)

Okay thank you, I will have a look at the contract and make my mind up from there. I did this in my own time, I didn’t make that clear in my post

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Datatello@reddit

But you said your manager gave you free reign to stop any usual tasks and to work on thos full time

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woodrobin@reddit

Yes, that did muddle the message. But they never said they *accepted* or *acted upon* the offer.

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TotallyNormalSquid@reddit

IANAL but I remember looking into this in the UK a few years back and found the copyright act from (I think 1977) pretty encouraging on this. It was something like even if done on company time, on company equipment, unless it related to something you'd been tasked to do by them, it was still yours. And I believe it explicitly overrode contract law. Now because I'm not a lawyer I dunno whether the copyright act even has relevance to IP, and I wanna add another layer of 'don't trust me double check this' because I can sense the reddit lawyers coming to correct me already. But I would be interested if anyone knows the definitive answer.

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Sun-God-Ramen@reddit

In the US, even if the app is not related to your work, and they can prove you used company assets; they can lay claim to the up

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TotallyNormalSquid@reddit

Yes, but OP is in the UK so i was trying to be relevant there.

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andr386@reddit

If it's made within business hour then it always belong to the employer. UK, EU, US, Japan it's the same. In the US it's even worse as it applies also to what you create outside of work in your free time if it relates in any way to things you'd do at your job.

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BackflipBob1@reddit

Not necessarily in EU. Local legislature differs between countries. In some, unless its in your job description or your contract, you own it.

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klmsa@reddit

The US portion isn't necessarily correct. There's no law that makes such a statement about ownership when related to work responsibilities. That's an employment contract issue and can be negotiated if the work content isn't unique. I can't go recreate my aerospace engineering applications because it uses proprietary information, but I could develop an engineering project management software and be just fine, due to the wording of my agreements with the business.

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goldrunout@reddit

Funny for contracts that have no definite work hours.

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TotallyNormalSquid@reddit

I've had an AI dig up the relevant parts of the acts if you're interested, but I feel gross spamming AI output at people so I'll only do it if you want.

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Cyclone4096@reddit

OP’s manager basically said they don’t need to do any other tasks just focus on developing that app. I’m pretty sure any court will count that as the manager tasking OP with creating the app

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Mimical@reddit

Yeah, based on this it really just sounds like "Hey OP, Make this App using company tools and company time while being paid wages by us to develop it." This is significantly different than OP building this App at home using his own tools outside of work direction.

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JJMcGee83@reddit

Some companies have shady policies that anything you make while working for them is their property even outside normal working house.

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OkSignificance5380@reddit

Even if you develop it on you one time, if it is related to your world, it's theirs

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woodrobin@reddit

This is not just grammatically wrong, it's factually wrong.

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OkSignificance5380@reddit

Check your employment contract.

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Low-Opening25@reddit

it doesn’t need to be in the contact, it is default position. everything you do on company time/resources belongs to the company.

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zshift@reddit

u/RDE_20 please ask for input on r/LegalAdviceUK.

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birdington1@reddit

That’s exactly why they’re tell him to do it on company time lol. To do all of this for a measly 10k bonus lol? Especially when they already paid 3 dudes over 200k for last shittier iteration. They know it’s good and want to lock down the IP. You’re much better off OP doing it on your own. And giving them a free license to use it. A small amount of cash now to make your life a bit easier in the short term, could shoot you in the foot for the payoff if you’re able to sell it to other companies.

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OllyTrolly@reddit

I'm sure that is normally the case. It is the case with my company. Anything developed on company time is the property of the company.

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jordansrowles@reddit

It’s the default in the UK. If not specifically specified in your contract, any work performed under the companies time and resources is automatically the property of the company.

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RDE_20@reddit (OP)

Okay thank you, I will take a look tomorrow. I didn’t make it very clear but I’ve been developing this in my own time but using company software to do it.

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Anti-Hero25@reddit

Hell , it’s brutal here in the U.S. …….the Pharma company my Dad worked for technically had rights to a medical device my Mother came up with at home, so she never tried to develop it.

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Ender_Locke@reddit

lots of us companies if you use their computer to do anything they own it as well

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peteZ238@reddit

I think you're on the money. UK based and everything you develop on company time and/or company equipment is owned by the company. IP, parents, software, etc. So the fact that they've changed their responsibilities this software is considered company property. I would have taken the approach of, I developed something in my personal time as a personal development project that is adjacent to my job but I did not use any company data or IT equipment to do so. I think it has potential and I can demo it to you with dummy data. Are you interested? And then negotiate from a position of fuck you.

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zomgitsduke@reddit

And the fact that this person was encouraged to stop doing regular work to develop this, means the company has some rights to this. Alternatively, if the software is very confusing and no one but this person can use it... Then we can possibly talk about compensation to fix it (but also be ready to quit if they say no dice)

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larsga@reddit

In Norway the company would own it even without a clause in the contract, unless the contract specified the opposite. No idea what UK law says.

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davernow@reddit

Also: sounds like you’ve already used it at work, on company machines, presumably with company data, and distributed it to other employees (your boss). I can’t imagine an employment contract where you own it and they don’t. Personal thought: this sounds like a work project. I’d play inside the system and get what you can (bonus, better role). Aim for promo/expanded role if you want to move past bonus. Whatever you do, don’t get all “actually I own this” with them before talking to a lawyer. Chances are you don’t, and you can turn a good situation (taking initiative, talk of bonus) into a bad one real quick.

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crunchy_code@reddit

100% this is the case.

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drunkondata@reddit

Did you write this tool on your time or theirs? Generally work produced on company time is property of the company.

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MyAmazingWomen@reddit

If you have a bad contract, work produced on your own time might belong to them, too.

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drunkondata@reddit

Not sure how well that stands up legally, especially when work is unrelated. In this case it could hold, since the product requires the IP to operate.

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RDE_20@reddit (OP)

Nope, in my own time however I did use company software to do it.. my manager is fully aware of what has happened now and I’m waiting to speak with HR as apparently a similar thing happened a few years ago with someone else, they ended up landing a junior developer role and got a £20k raise as a result

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marr75@reddit

Time, equipment, or with know-how specific to the company (i.e. you couldn't have written software that saved the company N hours on business process M if you didn't work there with exposure, documentation, free access to the existing software, etc.).

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dispatch134711@reddit

Time equipment or data sources I would concede but I’d fight against the last point. You can’t own the knowledge in my brain in perpetuity or outside my work hours. I can’t forget things I learns while working for you I’m not an android.

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mbrittb00@reddit

If you did all of the development at home with your own resources, then YES you would be entitled to the "fruits" of your labor. The knowledge in your brain is the product that your company is paying you to use while paying you on the job. You developed this tool while on the job and getting paid by your employer. I'm not sure how you feel entitled to something that you employer has already paid for.

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marr75@reddit

Depends on the specificity and time frames but depending on the situation, it can be an enforceable expectation. A very simple example is basic customer contact info. If you use emails and phone numbers you remember from daily business use to reach out to the company's old clients, you can easily be in violation of a proprietary matters agreement and that can have civil liabilities.

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AntisocialByChoice9@reddit

IBM enters the chat

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MyAmazingWomen@reddit

You may have to give it to them whether or not you might want to. Intrigued by a work problem, on my own time, I (Python, VB) and my friend (C++) came up with a solution. Word got back to my boss, who informed me that under the terms of my contract, the company would assert ownership of the project, despite a non-employee creating part of it and despite no company assets being used in its creation. The project "stalled" (except when I needed it to do my job) and then quietly went away the same time I did.

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platinums99@reddit

Asmart man would develop the app in the evening carry on as normal in work time. Once it's ready, talk to company about licensing it for 10k /month back to the company

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jarislinus@reddit

literally 100% belongs to ur company

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zExecutor@reddit

It depends on you job spec

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bahcodad@reddit

Dont develop it at work. Develop it in your own time and sell the company a licence to use your software

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wintermute93@reddit

>she’s pretty much given me free reign to stop any of my usual tasks and focus on this full time Uh, it sure sounds like you've already been paid for your work. You've been paid your normal salary to do this, rather than being paid your normal salary to do your usual tasks. "I saved the company $X gazillion dollars by doing Y" doesn't entitle you a percentage of that money in the corporate world, it just looks good in your next performance review and looks good on your resume when you're looking for your next position.

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turbo_dude@reddit

Just wonder where else OP expects to sell this tool! Sounds bespoke.

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Full-Fold-9725@reddit

Look at your employment contract, “your” script might actually already be considered the company’s IP and by refusing or delaying turnover, you could be opening yourself up to a lawsuit. I’m in the US, so do your own research.

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reduhl@reddit

If you developed this on company time with company resources (the computer) they usually own your work product.

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exomni@reddit

"Free" has nothing to do with it. The question is simply whether it is your intellectual property or not. Did you work on it during work hours? Are you salaried? Is it a general workflow tool that can be configured for operations generally, or explicitly custom-built for your company's workflow? Did you sign an intellectual property agreement as part of your employment contract?

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vblego@reddit

Bonus is cool, but this if this is work outside what your contracts lines out, then this is perfect leverage for a raise. Especially when you are saving them so much money

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Old-Stage-7309@reddit

Read your damn contract. How are people this smart so stupid

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Melodic-Comb9076@reddit

noooo. do not do that, but your employment agreement might give you no choice. plenty of jpl engineers who had no choice but to let jpl own all IP.

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ElHeim@reddit

Before going ahead, you should probably contact a lawyer to clarify who would own the rights to your software, that you're developing using company resources (likely the company, but might be down to your contract, as you weren't hired as a developer?) In the likely case that the company *already* owns what you're producing, then you should have a conversation with your manager about compensation before you go any further down that road. In the unlikely case that you'd be the sole owner of the IP rights... I'm not sure you'd be in a good position if you decided to hold the software ransom to get a better pay. I mean, the company could see that as a misuse of your previous X months of work, right? Dunno, not a lawyer myself. Just elucubrating here

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Buevitoconcaisun@reddit

Welcome to development world. This is how coding work in companies. I work in one of the largest asset management firms in the world. I've developed 10+ python applications the past 2 years saving around 2M+ usd a year and 10k+ man working hours a year. Of course im not getting the savings directly in my bank account but I'm well positioned with management and looking for a promotion next year. From my experience, development work is more impressive when your job is not development itself. What I would suggest, keep developing and make your work visible to management and senior management, literally sending emails "promoting" the project and adding specific metrics of money saved, time saved, risk managed (senior management don't care about the project itself, they care about benefits) Also check your employment contract, in mine it is specified that any code developed during my work is property of my employer.

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T3RRYT3RR0R@reddit

If your not happy with the value you're being offered as a bonus for this non role specific task, and can demonstrate the value of the product to your employer in real dollars over time, seek a meeting to renegotiate your pay.

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VisualHuckleberry542@reddit

You've taught yourself to program in Python? Trust me on this, brother you don't know what you don't know about software development. If somebody is willing to pay for your time while you learn, be grateful for that and the opportunity

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RDE_20@reddit (OP)

Yes I learnt some at school and was then interested in it so did some stuff in my own time, then landed a job at a fintech company where I realised loads of stuff could be automated but has mainly been me giving ideas to developers… now taking matters into my own hands I guess

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yonutz2032@reddit

Not for free or "promises". Maybe just a very limited version, and upgrade it when some kind of contract comes to you

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Exacom@reddit

your employer extracting more value from you than you are being paid for is just the nature of capitalism.

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Altruistic-Fly3642@reddit

In regards to ownership, this is the law as it applies in the U.K.: [https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/37/section/39](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/37/section/39)

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ShakataGaNai@reddit

If you built it during company time, on a company machine, they own it. So, yes.

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cj6464@reddit

This advice would be relevant if in America, but every county in the world has different precedents regarding this and the poster stated they're in the UK.

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CodacyKPC@reddit

Yes, and it's true in the UK too.

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_Atreids@reddit

I work as a software dev in the UK and every contract I’ve ever signed here has something to the effect of the above written into the contract. Interested though in how it would play out for someone who is explicitly _not_ an engineer. Perhaps because OP’s role does not involve coding their contractual agreement mentions nothing about software produced in company time/equipment.

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andr386@reddit

It doesn't even have to be in the contract. I know thy put it in there but that's the law in the UK, EU, US, Japan. In the US this extend to things done in your free time.

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mrcaptncrunch@reddit

\> In the US this extend to things done in your free time. I don't believe this is federal. So it would depend on your state.

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mbrittb00@reddit

Actually would depend on the company. Many companies don't care about products developed on your own time (using your own equipment) as long as it doesn't conflict / compete with one of their own products.

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TipIll3652@reddit

Yeah it's explicitly mentioned just so there is literally no debate in most contracts, but it is mostly implicit otherwise. Probably a grey area for a good lawyer, I ain't got that kinda cash though lol.

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riotmaster256@reddit

my previous employer told me that "even if I write a poem on a company papar, the company holds right to the poem"

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ShakataGaNai@reddit

This is effectively universal - it's "work made for hire". Almost everywhere in modern society, if you are doing work on company equipment, during company time.... then it belongs to the company. As they are paying you to do the work. Even if it's not explicitly part of your job responsibility, if your manager says "Yea, you can work on this project to make life better". You're being paid to do that work, its work done in the execution of your job duties. Therefor it belongs to the corporation. UK specifically... Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 §11(2) assigns copyright to employer for works made “in the course of employment.”

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angelicosphosphoros@reddit

>This is effectively **universal** \- it's "work made for hire". Not true. At least, in Russia, it is different. To transfer IP from developer to its employer in Russia, the following must be true: * most important: employee must have software development in his duties so, for example, if code developed by accountant, it wouldn't trasfer * there must be a request from employer to develop software. Jira tasks or emails suffice. * there must be acceptance of result by the employer, for example, closing of Jira task as completed or even signed paperwork * author must be paid honorarium. For example, I got extra 10$ payments separate from my salary every months as an "author honorarium" * the code must be written while the author "at work", meaning that in office hours or officially recognized overworking. If anything from list is not true, it becomes less clear that ownership is transferred, especially if an author didn't work on software development role or didn't receive honorarium. There are probably many countries that work similarly because computer programs are effectively copyrighted as text, and laws for copyright on text are written with focus on protection of writers. AFAIK, in the USA, contracts require ownership of everything and their mother specifically to avoid situations when something developed by employee is not clearly owned by corporation. And, well, courts allows companies get away with such contracts. It is explained, for example, in the blog of Joel Spolski (creator of stackoverflow): [https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/)

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cbarrick@reddit

Mostly yes, but not necessarily. I think that scene in Silicon Valley where the court case hangs on whether or not the code touched the employer's machine is mostly overblown. The actual legal bar is more like "is the code related to your job," because there is no such thing as "company time" for a salaried employee. For example, big companies will assert in your employee contract something to the effect of "all code you write is owned by the company," but in practice the only code that they can claim in court is code related to your job. For example, if your job is developing large scale distributed systems, but you write some unrelated embedded firmware on the side, your employer probably can't claim the IP of that side project. It does sound like OP's project is clearly related to their job and they have been paid to create it. In the US, the employer would almost certainly own the IP.

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anothersite@reddit

Maybe

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chensium@reddit

Your work product is the property of your employer. So if you worked on it during work hours, used work resources, or even just tested it at work, your employer can claim ownership. Sounds like you have a decent relationship with your employer so I would use it as leverage for more pay rather than get too greedy and going adversarial.

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ShotAstronaut6315@reddit

I live in the USA and I devolved some softwares that automated a lot of manual tasks, I was a systems engineer and I had no obligation to make a program. So, long story short, I ended up letting my employer know I was leaving due to several concerns I had with the company itself and I would leave the place in the best state I could. Before finishing my job, I found the my boss had my coworker copy all of my files. So I encrypted it and they were pissed. They ended up firing me but I get the last laugh because they have no idea how to manage a network and they are fighting agaisnt the clock before they are forced to remove their systems from the network due to non compliance and security concerns. Fucking idiots. Like you, i worked on the code in and outside of work so it wasnt fair for them to argue it was company software and it wasnt, I also had no obligation to hand over my software at the end of my employment.

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BeltPuzzleheaded7656@reddit

Hell no. And most importantly NEVER work on private projects on company time or especially on their systems. Typically that would make the project theirs and if you have ever signed a Non Compete Agreement there is typically a stipulation in it that says that or something like it. I've personally walked away from a few VERY good jobs in order to maintain ownership of my IP. Never "give" them anything. If they want it they can pay for it the same way they pay for everything else they use.

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zorg24@reddit

You should of course try and get more than the 10k bonus for what you're saving them, but the unfortunate truth is that if you wrote on company time using company provided PC they definitely own the code. Try to get a raise or a title change if you want to write more software like it.

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dr-steve@reddit

You wrote a program (I write/wrote a lot of programs). The development team produces programming products. Check out the first true classic in software engineering, "The Mythical Man-Month", by Fred Brooks. Written in the early 70s. I first read it in the 70s or so as an undergraduate. Yeah, I've been at this for a while. From fading memory: Brooks described the "garage accounting system" that was better than commercial products that took years to release. Then he described the difference. A program does a task \[well\], and takes X amount of effort to write. Creating a releasable, usable, documented, maintainable product is a large leap. * 3x the amount of work to turn it into a stable, maintainable product. Validations, internal checks, internal documentation, testing processes, making sure the code can be managed. * 3x the amount of work to turn it into a usable product. Documentation, training manuals, release and update procedures, and so on. The actual program is 1/9 of the total initial cost. Then add on long-term maintenance and support. Yes, if the CIO/CTO and related teams (note I did NOT say the development team) thinks your product would be of long-term benefit to the company (start looking into how to write and present your case!), you definitely deserve a bonus and probably a raise accompanying a percentage of your time being allocated to the dev team in support of the core of the product. But it might be a long trip before it is released. Good luck, and congrats on producing something useful!

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stealth941@reddit

Normally in the contracts it states any tools you create etc on company time are... the companies. Now i would go so far to say they're screwing you out of it. Say you hit a blow back you lost all the data and it's all gone. Because i guarantee that even if you tried to sell it to them, your contract will have some wording to say it belongs to them for free, you won't see any penny more than your salary and maybe an extra bit of bonus you'll get taxed on. Companies like this will screw.... you... over. i'm getting pissed off for you that's how bad it looks

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prochac@reddit

Are you at least close to what programmers are being paid?

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RDE_20@reddit (OP)

I earn around £60k a year, with the potential of 15% bonus, I’m the team leader of a small specialist pension team currently

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prochac@reddit

You gen my point, right? Get paid fairly for the job you are doing. I can't say if it's an ok price with my Eastern PoV 😁 because it is much more than my local wage, which is solid to the cost of living here.

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Deaf_Playa@reddit

Nope. License it and make them buy it. You'll thank yourself in royalties.

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Nightlane79@reddit

So, correct me if needed, but if you start modifying your code during your working time could give your company control over it, so be careful.

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RDE_20@reddit (OP)

That’s part of the dilemma I am having, I built this out of working hours but using company resources. I have a friend in HR who I’m waiting to speak to next week

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Low-Opening25@reddit

If you developed an app on company time and equipment then IP belongs to the company, not you.

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Iron_Madt@reddit

Tbh i would just be glad to have it on my resume so i can move on with it. Asking for money isn’t always a respectable move. If you continue to work on it, and they never said they’d pay you, then probably dont ask for money

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RahimahTanParwani@reddit

No, you shouldn't. Get them to pay you triple what they promised. And get it in writing before the completing the work.

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learningtolivee101@reddit

nah, don't just hand it over like it's free lunch... negotiate a fat raise or some equity before they fintech your hard work away. i learned that the hard way with a script that saved my old boss thousands.

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Solid_Mongoose_3269@reddit

Hope you never did this on company time or equipment

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vacri@reddit

Negotiate for a raise rather than a bonus. You're clearly capable of using more skills than your role called for.

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Wrong_College1347@reddit

Are the software engineers still working in the company? Then suggest to become the requirements engineer / business analyst, so they build the right tools. Software development is more than writing some lines of python code. Using your code in production is very risky.

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mbrittb00@reddit

This statement right hear "she’s pretty much given me free reign to stop any of my usual tasks and focus on this full time" indicates that you are getting paid to develop this tool for your employer, thus the tool belongs to them. Period.

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ShonenRiderX@reddit

i'd ask for a raise on paper instead of a vague promise of a potential one time bonus

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mattthesimple@reddit

I done it. Worked for fairly big bank as well gave my project to my dept bc it was helping everyone lol it wasnt going to be sustainable though, my role wasn't in app dev or maintaining it. So I doubt it ever got maintained after I left.

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BassPlayingLeafFan@reddit

The moment you developed the app on company time you, at best muddied the waters with reguards to ownership of the app and at worst, you seeded ownership of the app to the company.

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Gainside@reddit

Push for a title change, raise, or at least something formal. Otherwise you’re just the ops guy who coded himself out of recognition lol

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fantasticmrsmurf@reddit

Never ever give something like this away for free TLDR - fuck you, pay me

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Zeroflops@reddit

As many have pointed out, legally it may already be the companies. As for compensation. You looking at getting the equivalent to what they are saving. But you did get paid for the app if done on company time or equipment. And any raise in the future will be continuous, so your not selling your app for $20k your getting 5k repeatable over many years potentially. Future raises will be based on that pay bump. So in short you will make more over time. Also this open up opportunities for other similar projects. It puts you in a unique position if you can deliver tools your co-workers can’t. And as you continue to make work more efficient you continue to get more pay.

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jordiesteve@reddit

well, do you know companies similars to yours that would be willing to buy your app? if so, forget the company you are working at and start selling it outside

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automatic@reddit

If you made it during company work hours, they own it.

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Ok-Result5562@reddit

This is definitely a company asset. I’m sure you signed away all of your rights already. It’s definitely work for hire. I don’t know UK laws, but in the US this is clear to me. I think you need to find a job as a software developer. Or ask your boss to be moved to the software engineering team and support this project in Ernest. I think a 25% raise is totally appropriate.

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Rizak@reddit

You’re never gonna win in court, they own it because you made it on the clock. Use this to leverage your bonus and launch your career in a different direction. The smartest thing you can do is to ask for them to pay for project management and programming training so you can get better at developing the features. Pretend most of the features you’ve created don’t exist yet and make a fake schedule that delivers those after your bonus.

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CupcakeSecure4094@reddit

If you made it in your free time, it's yours, if you made it in their time it's theirs. Or prorated proportional ownership. I would licence it to them and continue developing it under their time. Less risk for them and long term income for you.

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ivan_kudryavtsev@reddit

This

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CupcakeSecure4094@reddit

Excellent point, any business protocol which has been replicated in your software could be construed as IP. This could easily make selling it to others, or possibly selling it to them an issue. So just cover this in your licensing agreement under the accepted as-is disclaimer.

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rmpbklyn@reddit

if did on company time its theirs , if use their machine/pc/laptop then its theirs , if not have a contract written up

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coin-drone@reddit

Use the fremium model. Give them the scaled down version but charge for the full version.

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MisterFatt@reddit

If you built it during your working hours, and especially if you used their computer, they own it. That’s how it is in the US anyway

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Hot_Interest_4915@reddit

don’t give it without negotiation. Otherwise you will stuck there. I had something like you do, and still kinda on same spot. It is your best chance to grab your opportunity

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kaini@reddit

If you developed it on a work machine, they already own it.

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PuddingAlone6640@reddit

Is it not possible to simply delete what you have done on the work computer and re do it home?

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djamp42@reddit

You could before you told anyone about it.

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gingimli@reddit

They also said they developed it on company time with manager approval. That’s not a side project, that’s a work project.

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Try-the-Churros@reddit

Uh where did they state that? They said they gave snippets of it to their manager (aka they already coded those bits) and THEN the manager wanted them to switch their duties to developing and completing the app. I don't see how your conclusion can be made from what they said.

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gingimli@reddit

“and THEN the manager wanted them to switch their duties to developing and completing the app” This part.

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Try-the-Churros@reddit

And? Nowhere does it say they have actually done this yet or this is when they developed majority of the app. They gave snippets to the manager to gauge their reaction and it sounds like they came here to discuss. Nothing says the manager switched their duties any real length of time ago.

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kaini@reddit

But, I mean, that answers the question. Or rather, it's not even a question. OP might get a nice bonus, but they're giving the app away for free.

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marr75@reddit

Getting paid any amount of money (via your wages) for writing python scripts as a solo hobbyist is: - Not giving it away for free - Almost certainly higher than the average market rate for writing python scripts as a solo hobbyist

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pfmiller0@reddit

It's not free, but they've already been paid for it.

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anothersite@reddit

Manager approval to work on the project during time paid for by the company is no longer free to company is paying for it.

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FarkCookies@reddit

It may or may not be. I think it is more important when it in the course of doing your work or related to your work. My super anal ex-employer gave an exemption to use corp hardware reasonably for side projects, just as long as it is not part of what constitutes your work, which it is in OP's case.

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danted002@reddit

Its also worth mentioning, that if OP build it on company time, they own it.

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codechisel@reddit

If you enjoy the work then do it regardless. It'll give you a good experience and a big win. If you find you're not fairly compensated then you'll have some experience and something in your portfolio to shop around.

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zourz@reddit

You should sit down and negotiate with the stake holders. Your manager, and who ever else makes decisions for this. You should be compensated for work you have done, that can be used to save alot of money. First read your contract for any stipulations. If you know what other people with a positional equivalent make, then request to be brought to that level, and a bonus for bringing the tool. Then you would function in this new position to maintain and improve your tool. If they are not willing to work with you, you are not obligated to surrender any tools. If it was made on company time, and with blessing of your manager, I would however suspect that they would agree to reasonable terms. If they don't want to compensate you anything, you are not obligated to finish working on your tool. E.g. you dont release it to them. It is not a part of your normal work, and can't therefore claim it. It might be different where you live, so you will have to research that further.

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fofo9683@reddit

I'm in the same situation but in a different field and my salary is relatively the same as my colleagues' but I get bonuses every time they are given and when I have to automate something it lets me focus on what needs to be automated. When I'm given other tasks I leave what needs to be automated for later without asking, because the job description doesn't specify that programming is needed to complete the tasks and I'm waiting for someone to tell me that I'm wrong when I do that :) . Anyway, my colleagues and management expect me to teach them too and give them the programs I made and to the extent that I feel like it, I do that too.

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ItsJustPython@reddit

Never sign over something you created for free. Too many apps get given away for free and then all of a sudden that same app is later worth millions as someone managed to get it funded and/or acquired by similar companies in similar industries.

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AistoB@reddit

You’re already being paid mate

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not_perfect_yet@reddit

>Has anyone ever been in a similar position? >I’ve estimated if I can get my app functional it would save the company £20k per month (due to all the manual work we usually have to do vs what I can automate). My manager has already said this puts me in a good position for a decent bonus next year (it wouldn’t be anymore than £10k) so I’m a little stuck on what to do and if I’m sounding greedy. There is 0 chance corporate will not screw you over with this, even if your direct boss has your back. Your time on the clock belongs to them as does everything you make. Stay in your lane. Do what you're told. Don't ***ever*** give them anything for free, because ***neither will they give anything for free to you***. We have contracts for a reason. Keep it the way it is, document it, get that bonus, Then hand it over. If they want you, **specifically you** to continue working on this, or using it, that puts you into a unique negotiating position. Make them pay you, consistently and with a chunky raise.

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DiskPartan@reddit

Dont just give it out for free, I was in your same position I made several tools for a company I used to work for, the first one I did I used it as means to get a promotion, the company had an opening for a position in a team dedicated to develop solutions for other departments so I applied, once in the interview with the director of that department i showed him the tool, I got the position, once in the position I found out that basically the team used company time to watch youtube videos, joke around with disgusting sick prn videos and do manual labor to complete tasks in the most inefficient way. I was overwhelmed by all the to do list and couldnt understand how the boss didnt care about making things right, in my desperation I developed solutions that took care of all the data processing in an automatic way, made it so the program would determine the type of information was receiving and add it into the correct db and make some report pdf, csv and html to provide some insight my boss gave me a raise once he found out about it and moved me a level up, then he moved to another company and the new boss started using me as her guru and took me into other areas of the company telling me that it would help me be better at my job(she would tell me how she would praise me to the big suits upstairs), she made me make solutions for areas I had nothing to do and out of my scope, I delivered. The way she manipulated me made me stop thinking of my efforts as a means to an end, in the end someone close to her told me that she was claiming she was the one making those solutions herself and using that to lock a better position up the corporate ladder, so I confronted her and asked her about it she came with the most ridiculous excuses i never touched the topic again and continue working as usual. fast forward she got rid of me there was an incident where a colleague messed a db as he was doing things his own way and he didnt noticed his mistake so there was a ripple effect into the whole company, money was lost and clients. I fixed his mistake as she asked me to. but afterwards she sent me to HR and they told me that she reported I was the one who messed up and that she no longer wanted me working for the company the guy who messed up wasnt my subordinate and he wasnt let go as i was. So moral of the story, never hand out your effort, use it as leverage. If you stop doing that you could end up being exploited for your abilities or they can use your effort for their own benefit. You never know when youre dealing with a shark.

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Old_Engineer_9176@reddit

Talk to an IP Lawyer - asap. Also look at your contract and to see any clauses that may effect you and your claim..... best of luck.

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Primary_Prune_8351@reddit

Op blew it

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Wischer999@reddit

Here is the thing, in the uk it is often written into contracts that anything you build for the company in their time, they own it. Otherwise you would have developers quitting jobs and taking their code with them. You started building this outside of work hours and outside of your role. Personally, I would have continued then sold them a licence. Taking this to your manager, they have told you to work on it, so you either want to cone to an agreement with them about being backpaid the hours you worked on it (at a negotiated rate being outside work hours) and they own the software after its complete, or agree a licence going forward for its use. Don't start working on it in work time if you have not negotiated some form of compensation for the already existing code.

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studiosi@reddit

If you have built it during employment time, it’s not even yours to begin with. Usually the contract is clear in this sense.

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TheBlegh@reddit

If its in your scope of work then its your job. But if you are making it to make your life easier and there is no requirement for it then no. Sell it to them if they want it so badly. If it wasnt part of the job then you arent being paid for it.

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HaroerHaktak@reddit

Check your contract lol. Anything made on company time might belong to company. There had been a lot of stories where people have written books and make stuff only to have it stolen by the company because of contracts lol

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wontfixit@reddit

Such tools are always build at home in personal free time. If you save 20k per month, you should get at least get a raise and 3-6 months of the savings. 60k-120k Bad things happens and code is gone very quickly.

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Asleep_Republic8696@reddit

If they pay you... they pay for the time you're spending on it...

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Pandapoopums@reddit

I actually did a very similar thing. Company issued RFPs for a redesign of a portion of their website. The quotes came back from big name consulting companies to the tune of $250k, the company didn't want to pay it, and I suggested I could build it. I was taking tech support calls at the time, and they took me off the phone to build it. I did the full redesign by myself and didn't have to take calls for a month or two. It's actually how I got my start doing a development job. It ended up landing me a full time development position at that company and my salary doubled because of it. I highly recommend just doing it and using it as work experience for a dev role. I'm really thankful the company took the chance on me that time, not sure how my career would have been if not for that manager trusting it all to me. I ended up working at that company for 10 years, and now have over 15 years in the industry so I would say unless you have iron clad ownership of the code and did it off company time, just let them have it for the bonus + clout.

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Fjkn93@reddit

Just make sure they are dependend on you for the app to work properly/updates etc.

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tobych@reddit

Doing work for your employer unpaid is generally a bad idea. Stick to the hours you're contracted to do.

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genalphast@reddit

That would be a great help.

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Flaky-Restaurant-392@reddit

You wrote code to specifically solve your employer’s problem using knowledge (about the problem/solution) that you gained while working there. You should play nice and get your bonus, and a possible nicer career path. If you get greedy/shady then you’re likely to get fired (at best) or hear from their lawyers (at worst).

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jaybestnz@reddit

Ive worked with a focus that if I can do amazing things and guve my employer huge benefits well above my pay or job description, Ill do it every time. You can do some things like ask to pitch it as an idea to your managers manager, and then have the code good to go. This helps your team profile. Id even make your boss look like the hero for encouraging you and contributing ideas. You could also negotiate python training as a trade for the savings. Would be worth it on your cv in the long run. Work careers are long, short term funds are one thing, and its crap to hand over great value (esp if no one knows), but next job you describe on your cv you did xyz and get 50% more pay.

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cazzobomba@reddit

NAL and not sure about UK IP law, but if you bring your app developed outside your normal work duties into the company and develop it on company time without any IP protection agreement, it will become the companies work product. You would no longer have any rights to the app. Now if your app is specific to only your current company then you may decide a bump in salary and bonus is reasonable compensation to release your connection to the code. But if it’s more…. Best to engage a lawyer, draw up a license agreement, and protect your IP. Also, do not do any development on the company’s computer/laptop. Anything on their computer is their property.

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MiniMages@reddit

Sounds like you are developing this tool in company time with the companies permission. Sadly that means you are not the owner of the application. It is a work product.

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DarthKermit-65@reddit

I’m in a similar predicament. My role is analyst, but I developed a tool to input information and extract information from people soft that could technically do the job of 20 people with only one person running it… it’s known around the company that this exists, but have no idea how to move forward with it. So far it’s improved our productivity quite a lot and I’ve developed life versions that I’ve given to a small handful of people in my department to improve their productivity as well.

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AustinRhea@reddit

No

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regex1884@reddit

Find out about local laws for ownership of it

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aghast_nj@reddit

*\ **Absolutely Not**\ * You are already in a bad spot: your employer has some idea you have developed something at work, and you have placed a value on its use. In the USA (which you are not, I know) it is quite common for employers to assert ownership over *any* work you have done using their computers, lab hardware, facilities, paid time, etc. Thus, "if you built it while working for us, it's ours." I do not know if this is commonly asserted in the UK, but I would expect that it is (because capitalism, yaay!). If your employer takes this stance, you are immediately going to lose control/responsibility/ownership of your project by default. (You may have "threaded the needle" and done everything just right to retain ownership of your IP. But you'll have to pay a lawyer as you fight to prove it.) Because you have placed a value on its use, I infer that you are thinking in terms of getting compensated. Either "nice job, Timmy, here's a bonus" or "hey, we'll pay you for this incredibly useful commercial product." Neither of those will happen (see above) if they assert they already own it, so you are destined to be disappointed. If it's truly useful, you might be able to sell it to other firms, but there's your employer with their hand out again. "You're selling *our* product. Stop, and give us any money you've already collected!" You might be able to open-source the thing, and then bring it in to work as a zero-cost public tool. Or you could just hand it over to them as extra work you've done. But then you'll always be bitter about the money you feel you deserve for this. I'd suggest you stop talking to your employer about this, and do the research on what if any ownership rights you have, and what you can expect them to do to take it from you. Once you are aware of your legal status, you can pick whatever avenue makes sense.

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my_back_pages@reddit

people are getting hung up on the legal aspects of all this. personally, i dont think it really matters. you're not a professional software engineer, so you may not understand just how much of software engineering is maintaining something that already mostly works. 90% of a project is done in 10% of the time, and the remaining 10% is maintenance and bug fixes and api changes and new features and etc.etc. you have the idea in your mind that you're gonna hand over your code and that's gonna be it. realistically, you'll have over your code and it's gonna need another year of support and stuff, and that's gonna be your angle to switch roles if you so desire.

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SwiftSpear@reddit

It sounds very specific to what your company does... So I don't think there's much value in holding out to try to sell to someone else or something. It's way more about if this is the way you want to start a software engineering career or not. Also, you should keep in mind that building a frontend which does some calculations etc, is a far stretch from building an app with a well fleshed out and scalable backend. If you've never done that work before you're likely underestimating how heavy it can be.

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Nukitandog@reddit

Just a heads up. Anything built on company time using company resources is most likely theirs. Even if you didnt use anything at work they could still try to sue you.

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NoRepresentative6842@reddit

No.

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Seacarius@reddit

Never give away your labor. If they will save £20k *per month*, why would you settle on a one-time payment of £10k? They'd see a savings of £230k during the first year alone. Look out for #1 (you); be greedy. With that being said: I don't know that the rules are in the UK, but here in the US - at least where I work - if I were to develop software *on company time and/or using company resources*, the company would have some legal claim to the work, even more so as they're allowing you to divert time from your normal duties to this project. From this perspective, taking a one-time bonus of £10k might be the only way to see a monetary return from your effort.

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pfunf@reddit

Well, on the other hand it seems that op is only looking at the "work on my computer". What about deployment, maintenance, testing, documentation,... No idea about what the "workflow" is but seems that op did a prototype that might be far from production ready. Plus, how much can it cost a bug or two?

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gooeydumpling@reddit

Simple answer? If you developed that in a company owned machine/device, nah, it isn’t yours. I bet there is even a disclaimer before you login that says so

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Yuuku_S13@reddit

If they’re paying you to develop the app and you’re using your company’s device, they own it. If so, this is a great resume bullet for you to seek a developer role elsewhere. If you did everything in your personal time, I’d sell it to another company or something.

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Duckliffe@reddit

Did you develop this on company time?

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mothzilla@reddit

Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime. That's why I don't build my apps on company time.

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CepalMM@reddit

No, find a way to get paid the amount of time you spend plus some profit for your labor. Trust no promises about "...this puts me in a good position for a decent bonus next year..." Plus, don't developed it using their machine.

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Ketchup_182@reddit

Did you use your working computer and work time to do it?

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aquatic-dreams@reddit

NO

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skinnybuddha@reddit

I worked for European company in the US. Employees were not allowed to also be vendors. This was an ethical issue. Were people allowed to do this? Yes, but I was leaving and decided not to make a stink about it.

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Cipher-Trip@reddit

The company is compensating you by paying you a salary to work on this full time. And you probably developed this on a company device. It’s their property. The smart thing to do now is build the tool for your company, and then try to earn an annual salary to maintain and improve the tool full time.

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PrometheanEngineer@reddit

Company 100% owns it. It's worrying you don't understand this.

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gthing@reddit

If you coded it on company time, it belongs to the company. What you should have done is code it in your spare time, then charge them monthly to use it.

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mpember@reddit

As you admit in your initial description of the situation, your knowledge of the business has allowed you to build a tool that better fits their needs. That sounds like something that could put any resulting product into the "work product" part of your contact. You are either going to have to either engage a lawyer or hope for an acceptable outcome during negotiations.

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kyleh0@reddit

Nope! :)

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judgey_racoon@reddit

Fuck no. But they probably have an IP clause in your contract anyway

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ammar_sadaoui@reddit

i will not recommend doing that why would give hint about you coding skill anyway?

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extraordinaire78@reddit

You have already committed to your boss that you would do this but you don’t have to provide this software exclusively to your employer. You might have something that could benefit companies in other industries. In my opinion give them the software and refine it write it in a way that would make it generic enough to be used elsewhere

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Live-Ad6766@reddit

1. The IP is theirs 2. You’ll have extra £10k and SWE experience. Be happy with that.

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Kitchen-Hyena5226@reddit

You never do things for free to your employer, a company I worked had to replace some stuff in 110 units at a cost of $3k/unit I alone managed to solve the problem at a cost of $0.50/unit, did it myself in about a month, all I got was a thank you.

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Perllitte@reddit

Sounds like it's worth 200k+. Don't give it to them. If you didn't work on it at work (or there is no evidence of that) offer to sell it to them or subscribe for a measly 10k/month. If you did work on it at work, parley your snippets into a in-house dev role and a substantial raise. It could even be a new profit center for the company if you can sell it to non-competing firms.

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ruarz@reddit

You need to be very clear about the legal reality here: you have little to no claim to this app. If you tried to contest ownership, you would decisively lose, and you'd be burning a bridge with your employer in the process. Even if you only developed it partly using company resources, the fact that any of it was done on company time, with company equipment and oversight, and has direct alignment with your company's business means your employment contract likely has you dead to rights. Frankly, the most important thing you can do right now is adjust your mindset. You have to let go of any notion that this app is "yours" so you can navigate the next steps positively. The leverage you have isn't the work you've already done, that's already the company's property. Your real power lies in the promise of the future work you can do to expand the app, save the company more money, and integrate it with your other systems. If I were you, I would hold back on your new ideas and immediately stop developing any new features. Frame what you've built so far as a successful prototype or MVP that proves the concept and shows tangible value. Use that to make the business case for how much it could save with more time and resources put into it, and then leverage that pitch directly into a substantial raise and a potential title change for yourself. Find a balance between what you've already done being able to make a convincing case for the apps value, and being able to hold back on some of the work so that the promise of your future work gives you credible leverage. Also, keep in mind that the value of a few thousand lines of Python code is shrinking every month. What is far more valuable is the effective integration of that code with your company's existing systems, data, and procedures. The angle you want to focus on is pivoting this from a prototype into a production-ready application, contingent on your promotion. Don't feel like you've lost anything here. You've managed to use company time to pick up a new skill that will serve you well for your future career.

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SaltAssault@reddit

I'd probably ask this in r/legaladviceuk

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UpsetCryptographer49@reddit

Prepare an elevator pitch and ask for a meeting with your CTO, invite your boss.

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wind_dude@reddit

No, not a fucking chance.

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ebmarhar@reddit

As everybody has already said, your work contract may have specific guidance on the ownership of any IP you create. If they're gonna own it anyways, it probably doesn't hurt to take the bonus, and possibly make a nice upwards path in the company working on a project you enjoy.

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JimBo_Drewbacca@reddit

Next time you make a tool that saves lots of time, keep it to yourself and enjoy some extra free time

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markonedev@reddit

This is the right answer. If tool development and benefits from that were not agreed upfront, the case is that simple.

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iamzamek@reddit

It is probably worth more than you think for competitor or so. Contact any lawyer. Also, what fintech is that? Maybe I could give you some tip.

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51dux@reddit

Is the pizza your employer buys you every now and then good enough to give away your software for free?

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gdchinacat@reddit

Depending on your employment contract, your employer may already own it free and clear, regardless of what you want, when and how you developed it, and building it to try to use as leverage against them could be a terminable offense! Every employment contract I’ve had said all creations related to the companies business were wholly owned by the company, regardless of when and how they were built. Employers do this to protect from employees coming in, finding their pain points, building solutions “on the side”, and then using those solutions to essentially extort the company. Be careful!

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Jrose152@reddit

I would immediately stop after you’ve proven what you can create and the metrics of how it will help them. Once that is done you can negotiate selling them the product while you continue your current work you’re expected to do. This is a conversation that needs to be had with the right people.

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pouetpouetcamion2@reddit

tu as créé un outil pendant ton temps de travail dans les locaux de l entreprise, et en ayant en plus tes taches dégagées pour faire cela. tu t attends à quoi?

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CaptainFoyle@reddit

It's on company time now, so not free

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SharkSymphony@reddit

Has anyone been in a similar position? I think it's actually quite typical that a software engineer delivers more value to the company than they receive in salary. This is why they command the salaries they do.

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FisterAct@reddit

The correct move is to use it to automate your work, and then enjoy your free time. If you give the company something that saves them money, you will likely get at best a bonus at worst nothing. Plus, the company can use the saved time to justify laying people off and then have the current employees do more. That's a lose-lose situation. Instead, if you cut down on your own work and then pretend your work takes exactly as long as it always has, you can pursue other things with your extra time. Corporations do not reward innovation.

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woahboooom@reddit

If you developed on company time. It's probably the companies. If you developed completely on your time it's yours. However if you used a works laptop it can get murky. Easiest if its on your own time and yours/theirs laptop, do a contract, have the company be primary customer and tester...

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Crissup@reddit

This! If you built it on company time, then they were already paying you to develop it, or you just weren’t doing your job while working on personal projects during work hours.

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_Tiizz@reddit

Not sure if this is the right sub here. Maybe also check some legal advice for the UK. But you did your research and if that is correct the company saves a shit ton of money and they will do so forever and you would only once get a bonus. Sure you would get paid for the app from now on as well, but not for anything you did before. I would do it like that. Maybe get paid separately for the app or for example get a percentage of what they save or whatever is possible. Not sure what you can do there, thats why a lawyer or similar might be helpful, but im sure you can get way more money than what they offer you, cause companies never offer you much in the beginning

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newprince@reddit

Unfortunately you already let them know about it. IP laws are fairly clear here unfortunately. If you develop anything on company computers during work hours, it's theirs

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jlw_4049@reddit

It is almost impossible to get work in the USA, better take what you can get 😆

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Rarest@reddit

it’s not your app anymore if they are paying you to work on it. your best bet would have been to build it and license it to them while maintaining majority equity. not worth it though if you can’t find other companies like your company who need this. if you’re able to build it without any coding knowledge it’s probably not impressive enough to try and keep equity of. an engineer could build something similar in no time.

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AppalachianAhole@reddit

My advice, having read stories from people in similar positions, who posted to subs like r/pettyrevenge? If you can, make the client program rely on a server side script that you control access to. Then allow your company to access it "for free" so long as you're employed. If they ever decide to can you, tell them they can retain access for £5k/month.

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quiet0n3@reddit

Ask for a short term job change contract with a raise. That way payment is in writing.

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InfraScaler@reddit

Good luck trying to sell your company a tool for your own job that has been probably, at least partially, developed using company resources.

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uclatommy@reddit

Typically anything that you code as part of your job belongs to your employer. You may not have any claim to the app you built as it is directly relevant to your job.

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True_Garage678@reddit

Review your contact and don't give it to them be a contractor, be a stake holder and make them by it from you....

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DjordjeRd@reddit

My situation, almost exactly. I'd say, our key negotiation tactics is maintenance.

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ofyellow@reddit

Never go for 1 time bonuses.

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gubatron@reddit

I'd give chatGPT a full copy of my employment contract and ask if I should start my own company and charge my employer for it as a service provider. Maybe you did not sign a non-compete and you're good to start your own business out of it.

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MsSanchezHirohito@reddit

For me it’s a hard no. For your own future self I think you will regret giving anything you designed away for free - especially to your employer.

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andr386@reddit

It's standard practice that anything you create on company time belongs to the company. There is zero discussion to be had. It's not an American thing about the US rotten corporate culture. It's exactly the same in the EU, Japan, ...

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MaleficentAlps463@reddit

Never! Start your own company and sell it

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tea-drinker@reddit

> she’s pretty much given me free reign to stop any of my usual tasks and focus on this full time. You are working for the company at their direction, on their time and with their equipment. You will absolutely be contracted such that the resulting work belongs to them. There have been cases where such a clause has been struck because e.g. a janitor working on his own time made something valuable so it was outside his duties, outside hours and on this own equipment, but you are screwed. *If* you get a bonus, I'd call it good.

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k0rvbert@reddit

You need to talk to an independent lawyer and show them your contracts. That's the best advice you can get here.

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linuxunix@reddit

Sooo, if you are getting paid ("on the clock") then the code you write is the company code. Asking for additional money is a quick way to be shown the door. (from a US perspective, maybe EU is different)

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NullPointerJunkie@reddit

You don't want to get into an Intellectual property dispute with your employer. As a rule the employer always wins mostly because the employee can't afford an intellectual property lawyer.

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DatBoiRo@reddit

You were allowed to develop the app on company time, for your role in the company. It’s theirs.

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Sharp_Level3382@reddit

Of course itd theirs..

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bautin@reddit

Questions: Would you have done this if it were not for your job? Did you use company resources? Did you do this on company time? If you answer "yes" to even one of these, then *you* don't even have an app to give away. You have an app you developed for your employer. And you have been paid for the work already, because of your salary. Sorry, you are straight fucked. And if you try to withhold this application, *they* would be able to go after you.

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Rorasaurus_Prime@reddit

Did you develop it on company time on a company machine? If yes, they already own it. If not, it's yours, unless your contract specifically states otherwise. If it's yours, you could permit them to use it but only while you're at the company. If you leave, they must start paying you a licence fee or purchase the rights to the software. Get it in writing and have it checked by a lawer.

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aktentasche@reddit

Without reading your text: no! Are you dumb?

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shinitakunai@reddit

I gave it for free to the company in exchange of an exit from the meat grinder that operations is. They put me in a developer job. 3 years later I was the lead of developers. 2 years later I was earning 3x my initial role. It is a gambling.

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RevolutionaryEcho155@reddit

You have to make decision. If the tool has any market outside of your employer, guard it with your life, get it on your own GitHub, computer, etc. If it’s just a cool utility that only works for this employer, it’s not huge industry secret, etc, take your chances on the promotion

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028XF3193@reddit

Either ask for a salary bump or keep it to yourself and use the free time for yourself. Do not surrender it for free, they will simply turn around and insist you do more for nothing extra.

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05IHZ@reddit

I would ignore the comments from people saying that if you worked on the project during company hours/equipment that it automatically belongs to your employer, that’s not how it works at all. Your employer owns the IP if there is a reasonable expectation that generating it would form part of your work duties. That’s all that matters, even if they try to claim all IP in your employment contract - those broad claims never hold up. The potential mis-use of company time and equipment is a separate matter. As you work in operations, writing code is probably not a part of your role. However, you should be careful that your manager giving you the go ahead doesn’t change that, but without anything formal you are probably okay. You may want to pause and agree these terms ahead of time before it gets messy.

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PartInevitable6290@reddit

They will give you a 5k bonus and you'll pay 50% tax on it haha. lol @ the UK.

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MeatIsMeaty@reddit

Do you want to code professionally? If so, ask your employer to change your job title and duties, along with a raise. There's no way you're going to be able to "sell your app."

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AwareBot@reddit

Just embrace the fact that what you produce at work will never be compensated at its real value. If you haven't shipped anything yet and you are the only person capable of doing that, you could try to threaten to leave if not getting a raise of significant bonus but that's a risky solution.

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IrrerPolterer@reddit

Depends on your contract. A typical software developer contract includes phrasing that gives ownership of all code and software developed on work computers to the company no matter what - you may have something similar in your contract, though it may not specifically talk avout source code. It moght just talk about "work product" or something along those linea. In which case you've already given them the thing for free.

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OwlingBishop@reddit

You shouldn't give away anything to your employer for free. Period.

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tmetler@reddit

As others have said, they probably already own your app, so it's not your choice. However, you still have plenty of value to provide as you said it's only half functional, plus app development never really ends. Your value is your skillset to continue developing the app. Sounds like your manager is supportive of your development so tell her what your goals are, including wanting to be promoted to a developer position and earning a pay raise to go with it and work together to achieve them. You still probably need to prove yourself more before you can fully secure a raise, because having a half functional app is very different than maintaining an app that's in active use, especially if this app gets used externally. I don't think it would come accross as greedy to state your goal of earning a promotion and raise and working together with your manager on how to progress your career. A good manager will want their team to become more capable and provide more value. Don't commit to new responsibilities without a plan though. You don't want to be given more work with no path to a permanent raise. Worst case scenario is you get more work and more responsibility with no extra pay. Guard against that by making the expectations clear. I think the way I would navigate it is to tell your manager that you would like to work your way up to being a developer. Don't over promise if you're still a novice. Tell her that you want to improve your skillset and earn higher pay and set the expectation that you should get a promotion and raise if the app gets adopted as an official company tool and get it in writing. It should all be amicable and mutually beneficial.

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HurricaneDoge662@reddit

I had to scroll way too far down to see this. I second this 100%. OP please take this to heart! This is the best way to grow your career, not be greedy, and build a good relationship with not just your manager but also the developer team at your company.

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Weak_Tower385@reddit

You are about to program yourself into a bonus and out of a job, if you aren’t careful.

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OccamsRazorSharpner@reddit

If you did it in company time it belongs to the company. If you did it after hours at home it is yours. The source of the problem is irrelevant especially if you can show that your solution is dynamic enough that it can accommodate other processes not just your company’s workflow. At most if built it at work use it as leverage for a very good raise. Another option if you have the means to go for it is to resign and go in as a consultant. DO NOT give anything away for free. Companies have short memories are never grateful.

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Silent_Video9490@reddit

As people are saying it probably belongs to the company. However, I think your best approach would be to try to get better benefits, as it stands if this gets implemented you're the only person that knows how it works for now, I'd try to get some kind of promotion, maybe get into a position that allows to work on this full time, with a salary raise included of course. I've seen people that help make better workflows for other departments using coding tools be promoted to "operations analysts." Be aware though, if you go for this route, your reign over the tool would be temporary, real developers could eventually be hired to work on your tool who will master it sooner rather than later, so you will need to keep on improving your skills to follow this path.

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anothersite@reddit

You may wish to engage a UK solicitor before taking the free rein on company time offered by your manager. I suspect that as soon as you do that, the company has an even stronger argument that they own your app. Of course, they are likely to think that they already own your app. And they may be correct. I know something about US, not UK, law in this area. As to whether the company already owns the app, your best hope is that 1) you did all the work on your own time on your own computer without accessing the computer server, data, etc.; 2) you have an employment contract \*without\* a non-compete clause; 3) you have an employment contract that explicitly says that your employment position does not involve coding, technology development, workflow improvements, etc. I suspect that ultimately you will have to be happy with a £10k bonus and positive performance review that states you show initiative. Best of luck. It's cool that you solved a problem for the company.

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runawayasfastasucan@reddit

Sell that app to a different firm, dont give it away. If anything give them the possibility to buy into the company that will own the app, or be a customer.

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theArtOfProgramming@reddit

Copyright it and license the tool to them. They pay for both the license and your time to use it. Don’t give them the source code.

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Thick_You2502@reddit

Read your contract. It happened to me that IBM owns any design I create while working with them.

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OkSignificance5380@reddit

Why would a company pay for code they already own? (I.e check you contract of employment/employee handbook, esp. look out for claues that deal with intellectual property ownership)

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internet_preferences@reddit

never work for free

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tylerjaywood@reddit

in the US: if you built it on their time or on their equipment or it's tangentially related to the company... it is not _your_ app > My manager has already said this puts me in a good position for a decent bonus next year If it's not in writing this promise is as meaningful as a fart in the wind.

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GickRick@reddit

I think if it's of that much value ,you should be properly compensated however do check if the contractual terms you agreed to are in your favour in terms of ownership of intellectual property. if they don't want to pay you, find a friend who can present themselves as a company selling the solution you built😃 hey, do what that small voice is telling you . You could have a startup in your hands right now! Think very long about this and don't be rushed to make a decision.

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TheWorstePirate@reddit

That second paragraph is called fraud. Don’t do that.

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Mhgu-bailan-2022@reddit

My suggestion is : keep your knowledge in your own pocket and do only what your company pay you. Be noted that your will become the evil guy who use underpaid skills to make your colleagues unemployed. That’s lose lose. Only boss happy. Hehe.

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tyrophagia@reddit

You did it on the clock it is theirs. We are here to serve.

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ConfusionFamiliar299@reddit

Most companies have a policy, that you most likely signed, that says something in the lines of: "we own everything you created during company time". When you mixed it with your own time, they will most likely still win the rights. I guess at this point you will be expected to finish the app and fix future bugs, and continue with supporting it. Congratz you've been promoted to software developer 😀. You may not even get a raise nor promotion, since it might not be part of the skill set for your job. You might have even doomed yourself because you'll probably have to give a lot of support, and it might put your carreer in a permanent freeze, as you keep providing support and keep working on that app, which stops you from working on more relevant skills for your carreer. But atleast you'll get a one time bonus

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Log2@reddit

They may even have a clause saying that they own everything you created period. Even outside of work hours. Check your contract OP.

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Napoleon_or_Snowball@reddit

Ask to be switched to a product manager role for the app -> build it -> provide 0 documentation -> go remote -> enjoy incredible flexibility and job security. Tell them to think of your PM switch and as an R&D cost for them and that the tool will require maintenance and new ideas that will not mesh with your current job or be unfair to be stacked together. Keep the same salary but with the extra time and flexibility, upskill and move to a higher paying tech role elsewhere - still potentially, offering your services to your previous company as a contractor.

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likeikelike@reddit

Like others have said it's almost certainly their property already. What I would do is own the project as much as possible in your manager's eyes. You will be responsible for working on the tool, maintaining it, improving it, training colleagues. If you hadn't/don't do this for them they would miss out on the savings or have to hire someone else to do it. For their own sake they should be giving you a significant pay rise.

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Spirited_Bag_332@reddit

No, never give a company something which can be used to optimize work if it was not part of your daily tasks and fully paid. It will never be honored the way you expect. At the moment it's just promises and a greedy boss. Without contract beforehand, no one knows if you ever will see the raise. Or you get fired the month after, because "workflows are too optimized". Of course you can show good will and hope for a good outcome, but I wouldn't bet on that. Companies don't work like this. You get your next ticket afterwards and that was it, with some lame excuse "oh we can't give you a raise but we need another dev for growing our business, thanks for helping us achieve that". Just my 2 cents but don't take promises of a reward -after- your work as serious talk. My experience is, that they all lie and are more than willing to through you under the bus for the next "better" opportunity.

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ConfusedSimon@reddit

'Focus on it full time' seems to mean during your working hours. I assume you're getting a salary for those, so you're not giving away anything for free.

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_digitl_@reddit

I think you should take the bonus or a raise. Like it has been said, you probably do not even own your software if you developed it on your work time. Plus, let's say that they refuse to buy it. Then, even if it is yours, it is probably a ultra-niche software. Good luck to sell it somewhere else. If it is not ultra-niche and if you manage to make it your own, it is another debate...

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qckpckt@reddit

You likely don’t legally own it at all, if you worked on it during working hours and or with company equipment. It’s your company’s intellectual property. You should be very proud of your achievement to get something functional and useful. That’s no small feat. My advice is to broaden the way you think about what you are getting out of this away from pure cash remuneration. You got to learn new skills, create something useful, and now this might allow you to begin a transition into a new career. All of that is worth way more than a cash payout. If you have a strong drive to create things and sell them - cool. The world needs more competent technical entrepreneurs. Don’t get greedy though - you could burn bridges, and hamper your potential. You’re still early in your journey; learn everything you can now in the safety and stability of a larger organization.

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bruschghorn@reddit

You worked on it during your work hours, end of story. Note, depending on your contract, even if you did it on your free time on your machine, you may still bound. But here, there isn't even an ounce of doubt.

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Wistephens@reddit

Agreed. Developed on work time or on work resources (laptop, network…) the IP likely belongs to your employer already. Keep personal projects on personal time and devices.

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mc_51@reddit

If this saves a lot of work, people will be let go. Managers will get some bonuses for "streamlining processes and cutting fat". You might get a small bonus and a thank you card. And then, you might get laid off soon as well. Pro move would be to use the tool to reduce your own work hours and STFU about it.

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Zeikos@reddit

> And then, you might get laid off soon as well. Then when the tools inevitably breaks you can ask x10 of your hourly wage as a consultancy fee to fix it. If a company is going to fire you - or others - because of a tool they either are tools themselves or it's an extremely shortsighted company.

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fellipec@reddit

Make it FOSS, give to the community

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Dead0k87@reddit

nothing for free

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spookytomtom@reddit

In work hours on work machine thats theirs.

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ingframin@reddit

Ask for a raise in salary instead of a one time bonus.

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