the zf8 is good because it isnt a mopar design.
the 5.7 has serious issues just like the other v8 motors from the big 3 american truck makers, with the added drawback of being installed in a ram truck. it doesnt do a single thing better than the 5.3/6.2/5.0/3.5 ecoboost that you can get in a chevy or ford.
its not even wirth mentioning the 5.7 variants that they stuck in their cars. they didnt change them at all since like 2007. they were underpowered even back then, i think there was a few years of overlap with the old ass 4.6 modular in the mustang where the challenger had an edge, but once they released the coyote both the camaro and mustang were making way more power than the dodges
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This is so hilariously wrong.
>it doesnt do a single thing better than the 5.3/6.2/5.0/3.5 ecoboost that you can get in a chevy or ford.
Its a workhorse V8, not a performance variant. The 6.0 and 6.2 are/were more powerful options over the 5.3L just like the 6.4L is for the 5.7L. The 5.7L is equivalent to the 5.3L Chevy engine. Except its noticeably more powerful. Its not fantastic, its just a decent V8. What were you expecting from a workhorse?
>its not even wirth mentioning the 5.7 variants that they stuck in their cars. they didnt change them at all since like 2007
They got VVT, an entirely new intake manifold and new heads in 2009. Or did you just think they randomly gained 30hp (underrated) out of nowhere? The Ram variant uses active intake runners just like the 6.4L does in the cars. I get that you're biased but you if you cant even be bothered to do literally 2 minutes of research, then you should just stop talking.
> they were underpowered even back then
They make around 330whp through the 5 speed auto on a Challenger/Charger post 2008. That was more than the Mustang put out and not far behind the Camaro SS. But those werent even performance engines. Its a workhorse. Why are you comparing it to Coyotes and LS3s? Biased much? The 6.1L in the SRT models was the performance engine and it put down more power than the Coyote and was 4hp shy of the LS3.
>Its a workhorse V8, not a performance variant
good job narrowing down on one of the engines i mentioned.
>They got VVT, an entirely new intake manifold and new heads in 2009
my bad, they didnt change the motor for its last 14 production years in cars, not 16. that makes it so much better lmao. sorry that i didnt do research for a reddit comment, i didnt realize this study would be peer reviewed.
>But those werent even performance engines. Its a workhorse.
im comparing truck motors buddy. the ls3 and the coyote in the mustang are both truck motors with different intakes and cam profiles, the 5.7 is a truck motor with a different intake and different heads. the ls and modular families are also much older than the revived hemi line. if you want to step up to the next level of v8 you would be comparing to the zl1 and the gt500.
>Bolt ons and a tune alone could get rid of that gap.
lmao, youre gonna lose on that front every time. the hemi as a platform obviously has potential, but the number of junkyard turbo ls builds with zero modification to the rotating assembly ive seen is wild. in college one of my friends threw a junkyard 5.3 out of a cateye in an sn95 mustang, tossed a big turbo on top, and did some VERY rudimentary tuning. ran like a top, probably made north of 400hp at the crank vs the ~280 it made from the factory iirc.
the coyote is also capable of insane amounts of power with a stock bottom end, its more expensive to do it because of the packaging involved with a physically larger motor but it isnt unheard of for them to make nearly 1000hp or more on stock internals.
> good job narrowing down on one of the engines i mentioned.
Good job not being able to understand your own context. You and I both know you're talking about the 5.7L. Dont play stupid.
>my bad, they didnt change the motor for its last 14 production years in cars, not 16. that makes it so much better lmao. sorry that i didnt do research for a reddit comment, i didnt realize this study would be peer reviewed.
You were wrong. Take the L.
>im comparing truck motors buddy. the ls3 and the coyote in the mustang are both truck motors
**LMFAO**
>the ls and modular families are also much older than the revived hemi line.
The Modular and LS both came out in the mid 90s. The Hemi came out in 03. IMO thats not "much older". The difference is that the LS and Hemi made actual power when they came out. 350hp on day 1. It took Ford almost 15 years to figure out how to do that without a blower.
>if you want to step up to the next level of v8 you would be comparing to the zl1 and the gt500.
Why are you moving goal posts? You wanted to compare NA performance engines. GM and Ford were way behind the 392 when it debuted and were still behind for some time. But if you want to move to Supercharged V8s then you're comparing to the Hellcat. Which considerably more powerful than both the LT4 and the 5.8L Shelby. If you want to throw the 2020 GT500 in there too, then you can also toss in the Redeye and Demon variants which still unsurprisingly have more power than the Shelby.
>lmao, youre gonna lose on that front every time.
Again, you're moving the goal posts lmfao. You claimed the 5.7L was underpowered. I said that you can close the power gap extremely easily with just bolt ons. Not once did I ever imply that the potential of the 5.7L or Hemi in general was greater than than the LS/LT or Coyote. Stay on topic.
the mopar touched me in the brain every goddamn time ive had to work on one. the only time i havent had a problem with something is when it was a brand new vehicle.
my original comment was that working on mopars sucks ass. i dont really think thats a crazy statement, their trucks are less bad to work on but that doesnt mean theyre great. someone mentioned the zf8 and 5.7, only one of which (the bigger failure point between the two) was actually designed by chrysler. you took issue with the fact that i dont like the 5.7 and thats where this started. the only reason i even brought up the ls3 and the gen 1 coyote was to give the 5.7 the best chance by comparing it to motors that were being put in the direct competition when it was still new. if you want, we can compare it to the gen 3 coyote and the lt1 theyre putting in the mustang/camaro, since thats a more relevant modern day comparison.
> I said that you can close the power gap extremely easily with just bolt ons
this still makes me laugh. like no shit, a modded motor is gonna make more power than a stock motor. thats not news.
>And different heads. And different exhaust manifolds. And different internals. And different compression ratios. And different block materials...
if you look specifically at the coyote and the ls3/l92, no they dont. head castings are the same, block materials are the same (aluminum for both), pistons are the same (gen 1 and 2 f150 coyotes had dished pistons to change compression ratio), connecting rods are the same. the differences are the intake length, cam profiles, exhaust manifold material (which, at least for the coyote, doesnt really affect overall power if the people running f150 manifolds on their mustangs are to be believed), and the ls had stiffer valve springs/hollow valves. the different internals only come into play when you look at nonstandard motors, im looking at the standard mustang gt and camaro ss. i know that the intake/exhaust for the 5.7 differed for the cars vs the trucks, as well as the cam profile, so i dont really see what the point there is.
My biggest issue with the engine is that it's almost twenty years old. If they were serious, they would make a generation. They won't, but it is telling.
The general engine architecture, the 3rd gen hemi, dates back to 2003 however the power output has been the same since 2013 although that itself was a tiny 5hp bump over what it had since 2009. I have no problems with it being an older engine but I would definitely like to see a power bump of any sort.
It isn't terribly out of line compared to the others but it is still the lowest of the upgraded v8 offerings. The f150 5.0 is at 400 and the GM 6.2 is at 420. The GM 5.3 is still at 355. It matches the f150's 410 lb/ft torque and is beaten again by the GM 6.2's 460. But yes they are still at 395 even with the etorque system; they say it is too mild of an assist to meaningfully contribute power and as such don't list a hp for it.
I am aware that the 5.7 is not the 6.4 and I would love for the 6.4 to be an option in the 1500 but it isn't. The point I was making is that it compares favorably to the other v8s even if it is the oldest and ultimately it isn't too far behind the GM 6.2 even if they aren't directly comparable.
Colloquially I meant more split a case of beer, but it hasn't been that uncommon in my life to split an actual beer. A quick sip for flavor, or if you want volume then pour a cup. Maybe it's the frat boy in me.
I feel like lifter tick isn’t the main thing you should worry about with a GMT800 anyway lmao.
Still my favorite truck of all time. The Avalanche is gods gift to mankind.
They never changed it unlike Ford and Chevy? That actually makes it more compelling tbh… all they’re really known for is the lifter tick issue.
Assuming the transmission and body aren’t complete garbage that age poorly, a new HEMI RAM is an absolute winner in my book.
It started in 2003, and was updated in 2009. They didn't change much, mainly the valve train and heads, but still left a lot to be desired. Gearing it more towards economy is fine, but you let the entire bottom be made from pig iron. The heads are aluminum! You add a system that beats on the valve train, and don't reinforce the weak valve train. A lot of issues, that didn't get solved.
Wonder how it stacks up vs the Hurricane I6, the Chevy 5.3 and 3.0, and the Ford 5.0.
Not mentioning the Chevy 2.7 or the Ford 3.5 because they’ll probably age like trash compared to the above engines. Especially that 2.7.
To me this was a sorta big fat nothing addition. The 5.7L HEMI is underpowered. If it had been the 6.4L with about 485HP I could see the reasoning behind it, or if they had actually finally modernized the 5.7L to make 420-450HP, maybe. The 5.7L is fine if you aren’t into driving fast, but it’s not very fuel efficient, power output is barely better than the 5.3L L84, and the two Hurricane engines blow it out of the water in real world performance and feel.
It's just missing a "Yeeehaaw" edition. The badge of said edition could be a cowboy riding a wild horse while holding onto his cowboy hat. Or while we are at it, why not the RAM 1500 5,7 Stetson Yeeehaaw edition? Every RAM 1500 would be equiped with an original Stetson hat and perhaps a pair of cowboy boots that match the color of the leather seats/ interior. The entertainment should only play George Strait songs (You look soooo goood in love...🎶 🎶)
As Levis is currently running a campaign with Beyonce, let's use that momentum and get a collaboration with Levis going: The Ram 1500 Levis Edition, whole interior covered in Levis finest blue denim, exterior also in the same denim blue color.
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You should see some of the goofy ass comments over on the ram sub. I became a mod over there years ago and there are some absolute Neanderthals over there that would drag their knuckles over a million more powerful and efficient V6/I6s just to buy a hemi. But those same people will argue "it's not even anywhere close to the same" when you point out that the Cummins is an I6
I mean there are a lot of meatheads even on the F150 sub. Muh “less turbos mean less parts to break” as if turbos were invented yesterday. Luckily Reddit doesn’t represent the real world.
My favorite part of that argument is that the 5.0 has more moving parts than the 3.5 lol. I've had both, I chose the 3.5 in my F150 because the 5.0 in my mustang burns about a quart of oil every 2k miles. Not a big deal in a car I drive 5k miles a year, big deal in a truck I drive almost 20k
For whatever reason, the version of the Coyote in the F-150 doesn’t even sound very good, at least the 2025 loaner I had didn’t. Very mechanical and not something where the sound would make sense as a big selling point.
You keep saying "worse", as if that was objectively true. The Hemi has better sound and feel, and if you want a quantitative data point, it will have better resale value.
It might be the worse option *for you*, but fortunately people have diverse likes and opinions, so we get to choose. And sales numbers will talk.
It *is* objectively true. The numbers don't like. The I6 has more power and more torque even in S.O. guise, and it tows more than the Hemi in every configuration where they're both offered.
Sound and feel are the very definition of *sub*jective qualities.
Towing is an interesting topic. I do think there's still a objective argument for the engine in that scenario because engine braking is going to be superior with the larger displacement engine. This topic was well expanded on in the recent Auto Buyers Guide podcast for instance.
I mean if you’re doing any serious amount of towing down big mountain grades, then you probably need a HD truck, because that marginal improvement in engine braking wouldn’t make that much of a difference if you have too little truck. For all other towing cases, the twin turbo 6 will be much better than the NA V8, as confirmed by their higher towing capacity (same as in the Ford line-up).
Would be great if they would start using the same turbo back pressure tech as the Cummins diesels have. Doesn't even have to be as aggressive because you'll still have the pumping losses from the throttle too.
Which objective measures are considered and how to apply them are ultimately subjective. Objectively the hurricane makes more power and torque, has one bank of cylinders, sounds like an inline 6 and has an aluminium block and head. Objectively the hemi has more displacement, an iron block and aluminium heads, sounds like a v8 and has 2 banks of cylinders. The things that make sound and feel can absolutely be measured in an objective manner. How important they are or any other aspect is and how to apply it to the definition of better is, at some point in the line going to rely on a subjective judgement. It is like asking objectively, what is the best car. In that case you would get multiple answers and at least as many reasons for them.
It'd be an interesting experiment but alas I don't think any sports car these days sells enough volume to justify the range of engine options you see in trucks.
Ford does charge the same for a 6-speed manual or a 10-speed automatic in the Mustang GT though, I guess you see the manual as the obviously inferior choice there?
Ultimately I don't see the issue. Its an option. I'd choose the Hurricane, personally, in a Ram 1500. Also, reports are Ram themselves think customers will ultimately choose the Hurricane as well. Like the F-150 they're expecting long term demand for the Hemi to fall to about 15-20% of Ram 1500s and the Hurricane to be the majority.
I just found your tone funny. Sports car enthusiasts choose the objectively inferior transmission all the time because of subjective reasons. Subjective reasons are valid, too.
I can drive them. In fact, all the vehicles I own are manuals.
I can also accept that they're objectively worse for just about every situation now as compared to a modern automatic. You're not shifting faster than a modern auto. They have more gears so they get better economy and better times and better tow ratings.
They *are* typewriters. They're things that used to be the only way to do it, but now you only choose one because of the way it makes you *feel*. They have objective drawbacks and subjective draws. Much like the Hemi.
Hoss... What does this even mean?
I can drive one. I own four. I prefer them.
That doesn't mean they're *better*. It means *I like them.*
But I guess you just gotta keep that ego pumped up?
Not that I'm aware. I do know that the Ford Mustang GT has them at the same cost.
Ultimately I think quibbling over the $1000-$1500 difference here is kind of obfuscating the point.
People are not making this decision based on such a small price difference. They're making it on their subjective preferences on what they want from the vehicle.
I just checked again on the Ford site... They're the same price. Selecting manual or automatic does not change the price. Maybe prior model years that was different but I've verified twice now what I've said is true.
"Worse" is subjective, especially in the ram.
A relatively unproven i6 with a twin turbo system may be more likely to have higher maintenance cost, or even just more issues in general, than an old pushrod brick that's proven itself over the past 20+ years.
If you hop over to r/ram_trucks the general consensus is the Hurricane (even in SO form) is a better engine and even the relatively small worry of maintenance costs isn’t dissuading any of them from buying, even old Hemi owners, so better does indeed seem like a good description.
I feel like the perfect encapsulation of the HEMI return was summarized by one comment I saw on the announcement: “can I get it without that BS etorque hybrid? I just want a V8.” Which is… yeah.
That is lame. And not to sound like a jackass but why did you opt for the v6? Only because I’m not a ram guy (Titan/tundra) but I figured if they are around they must sell well?
I wish they still offered the V8 on the Tundra. I would've opted for that. I almost pulled the trigger on on the Hybrid variant but only 2 more MPG didn't seem worth the cost.
Sales are down and they don't have anything else to offer.
They can keep discontinuing it, hope people rush in and buy them before they are gone. Then bring it back a year or 2 later, hope more people rush in and buy it before it's gone again.
Honestly I hate these trucks. Wish there were more regulations for controlling truck design to be inline with safety.
My wife and mother completely disappear under the hoods of these.
My little 3rd gen Tacoma even has blind spots in the front.
Do you really need to be able to tow 13k lbs? Is the enormous spacious cabin really worth barely fitting in a parking lot and being a nuisance to everybody else? Do you really have to attempt to look badass in your black ram that anybody can buy and drive?
Reddit: Fifth wheel trailers, boats, and towable things are stupid and wasteful. Why do people like these things.
Also reddit: Gimme gimme V8, V10, and V12 powered wagons and luxury barges. Spend all day gulping gas and chuck them into canyon corners.
Europeens tow with cars and midsize trucks and SUVs. Their vehicles often have higher tow ratings than comparable models here.
Why? Because they do not feel the need for excess. Their fifth wheels aren’t toy haulers and don’t need popouts.
And their towing speeds are reasonable. There is only one non-capitalistic reason I should be able to cross Texas at 80mph with a trailer- it gets me out of Texas faster. Otherwise, it’s just dangerous and kinda stupid.
When not towing, which is the vast majority of the time for the vast majority of the owners, these trucks are bluff-nosed and impossible to see around in my daily driver and fun cars. They’re literally a ton heavier than my current daily, which increases my potential of being killed on an accident with one by 100%.
I don’t know how people are perfectly fine driving something too big and too heavy daily just because they occasionally use its capabilities. I couldn’t do it, and I live on more acreage with more necessity than most.
BS.
Europeans have to deal with a different ballgame including higher fuel prices and sometimes taxes that discourage bigger displacement engines. Roads in Europe are not always as friendly to large vehicles.
Transplant Europeans to the US with wide roads, low fuel prices, and no government sticks to push them into fuel efficient vehicles and watch how fast options change.
Your Texas joke falls flat because like so many ignorant redditors you fail to remember America is a vast country. Los Angeles to New York is nearly 1000 miles further than London to Moscow
People buy trucks for towing because they safely and comfortably haul big things over big distances, up mountains, and across windy highways.
Considering I literally transport vehicles cross-country as part of my job description, your “u dont kno how big dis kuntry is” seems as ignorant as you claim I am.
I tow a 48-foot combo to transport a single car. It’s incredibly wasteful and is only necessary because restoration shops suck at completion on schedule and the owners are so filthy rich that a few grand more for transport is meaningless.
My hatred of pickups is borne of experience. All these miles on the highway and the number of pickups working for a living is embarrassingly low.
I actually just made a comment a few days ago about this. I am all for practical means of transportation. I had an M4 CS and traded it in for my Tacoma because it's too much of a car for a city. My TRD pro was more expensive than a low km big horn 1500. It wasn't even a question which to go for once I drove both..because yes the RAM was way bigger and comfier inside, legendary hemi engine, and can do way more work... but you can't see dick in it and am I living in the truck?
Plus really, how much work do you do? How big of a boat do you have that you need these ginormous passenger vehicles for?
For reference a medium sized boat loaded with gas, fishing equipment, etc. on a 1,000lb trailer is around 3-4500lb. Add in passengers, any equipment, etc. and you're still under 5500lbs which majority of mid size trucks can haul.
GMC Canyon: Up to 7,700 lbs
Chevrolet Colorado: Up to 7,700 lbs
Jeep Gladiator: Up to 7,700 lbs
Ford Ranger: Up to 7,500 lbs
Nissan Frontier: Up to 7,150 lbs
Toyota Tacoma: Up to 6,500-6,800 lbs
Hyundai Santa Cruz: Up to 5,000 lbs
Truck buyers don't look at trucks and say "I wish this had less capacity."
Down the road you might get a bigger fifth wheel, a bigger boat, or have more snow machines to haul. Having the extra capacity now means no need to buy a bigger truck later.
Or look at it another way, do passenger cars really need 300 - 500 horsepower and 0-60 in 3-4 seconds? Why don't we just mandate 190 horsepower hybrids and accept all cars with 0-60 in 9-10 seconds. Why does an Audio RS6 Avant need to exist. It's excessive, wasteful, and dangerous.
Car buyers don't look at cars and think I wish it was more reasonable for real life, no, they want the fastest, most loud, and obnoxious car that can get them from A to B as fast as possible.
A car that balances size, reliability, practical usage patterns? No, no, no...you need a big turbo, big intercooler, two doors, and a huge spoiler.
....almost like majority of people do not need a turbo diesel dually or an enormous V8 dodge tractor with blind spots galore.
You know, quite a few of us actually just need a bed for house maintenance and sports.
Let's say you do buy that Jeep Gladiator. Because you intend to tow with it, you buy the Sport S or whatever with the Max Tow package, so you have ~1,700 lbs of payload. But you picked some options to be kind of comfortable, so you're down to 1,500 lbs. You go on an overnight fishing and camping trip with your wife and some work friends, a total of four passengers. You tow your 5,000 lb loaded boat trailer.
Now, because you have some hills on the way there, you like to load your tongue weight higher than the minimum... Maybe 15%. So that's 750 lbs of tongue weight eating your payload. Next, of course, you have you and your three passengers, which is 800 lbs of human (average American is just a touch under 200 lbs).
You're 50 lbs past your rated payload capacity, even with a trailer that's legal to haul and just the middle-of-the-road recommended tongue weight. And that's before you get into your cooler, tents, other luggage, tools and spare parts.
Now compare that to a 1500, where you can get a crew cab with 2,000 lbs of payload before options, or 1,800 or so with the hurricane engine. You pick a few options, load the trailer a little lighter on the tongue because the truck itself is bigger and more capable and has better brakes, and suddenly you can go on that camping trip legally after all.
You’re in the wrong place.
You see, we’re Mericans. We need more. We need bigger.
Consumerism is in our goddamn blood- we didn’t wipe out bison and force indigenous people to change their way of life because we’re just mean, we did it because we fuckin’ love beef!
We’ve salted the earth and laid down thousands of miles of drainage to manage that salt just so we can have winter vegetables grown in a desert.
Consumerism’s only victims are those who can’t participate.
[New NHTSA Data – Vehicle Data Shows Popular Pickup Trucks Are Most Common Vehicles In Pedestrian And Bicyclist Deaths
](https://data.bikeleague.org/new-nhtsa-data-vehicle-data-shows-popular-pickup-trucks-are-most-common-vehicles-in-pedestrian-and-bicyclist-deaths/)
Kind of icky to say stuff like this when people lose their lives over this, don't you think?
"I don't like this because it kills people" is quite valid.
[New NHTSA Data – Vehicle Data Shows Popular Pickup Trucks Are Most Common Vehicles In Pedestrian And Bicyclist Deaths](https://data.bikeleague.org/new-nhtsa-data-vehicle-data-shows-popular-pickup-trucks-are-most-common-vehicles-in-pedestrian-and-bicyclist-deaths/)
>Passenger cars are the most common striking vehicle body type in pedestrian and bicyclist deaths... Pickup trucks... showed modest decreases in percentage for both \[pedestrian and bicyclist deaths\]... \[trucks were\] also some of the best-selling vehicles during that time. The NHTSA data provides no data to contextualize vehicles according to sales, registration or other figures to adjust data based on the popularity of certain models.
Did you actually read past the headline? Or was this just a two-second google search?
[Here](https://www.nhtsa.gov/book/countermeasures-that-work/bicycle-safety) is a better article, direct from the NHTSA, to prove the point that your article is trying to make.
>*Vehicle Type*: Collisions with light trucks (which includes SUVs, pickups, and vans) were responsible for the highest proportion of bicyclist fatalities (46%).
But the bigger problem lies in the fact that your argument (pedestrians can't be seen when close to the hood of pickup trucks) is fundamentally different from the argument your source could actually support (pickup trucks are more fatal to pedestrians and cyclists when they do hit them). They may sound similar but they're fundamentally different.
Instead of showing that they're more fatal *when* they hit someone, you should be trying to prove that they're *more likely to* hit someone. [Which is true](https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/suvs-other-large-vehicles-often-hit-pedestrians-while-turning). But not because of hood height - because of A pillar width, a problem which also exists for smaller pickups like your Tacoma, and for minivans, and so on.
I don't disagree that trucks are more dangerous to pedestrians than other vehicles. I just think your point that your wife and mother "disappear completely under the hood" is poorly made and missing the real point and the real problem.
Yea, this isn't a per capita study. A corolla hitting a pedestrian 100 times Vs a dodge ram 20 times is equalised out when you look at volume of sales.
These large trucks are more likely to kill.
No, they’re huge because Americans favor size above all else. If they didn’t van sales would dwarf SUV sales and we’d still have station wagons. We’d have engines that were actually efficient.
Vans are significantly bigger than most crossovers (which completely dominate the market), what the fuck are you talking about? People care about ease of access into their car, NOT size, or else everyone and their mother would be driving Escalades and Expositions.
When you need to have all this tech such as front facing sensors, cameras, chassis reinforcement, fucking gigantic LEDs for headlight safety, crammed into cars and airbags in every facet, where the hell do you think it's going genius?
The mass down voting of my comment is just evidence nobody on this subreddit has the slightest clue about
Oh yes, I totally said crossovers, not SUVs. And if it’s all the required safety features, why aren’t trucks and mondo sized SUVs the dominant class across Europe and Asia too?
Regarding the cabin space: yes. Full size trucks are pretty great as family cars
And I’ve only ever found one parking garage I couldn’t fit in, the truck was too wide. It was also the oldest parking garage I’ve ever seen
It's more so door room for everybody involved. For instance a tundra is 6-8 inches wider than a Tacoma. That means if they both parked in the middle of a parking space, you'd have 3-4 inches less door space if one parked beside you.
It's a being a conscious consumer thing more than a "I can't fit in that space" thing. I've seen it before. A TRD pro tundra parked beside me probably to show unity..but I had to back my tacoma out to let me girlfriend in..
I’ll save you the read. TLDR; you pay more for less output to stick it to 🤷and they disassociated almost 100 years of brand identity of Dodge and trucks.
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