If starting a agency is a common route for developers interested in starting their own business, why do those jobs tend to be too limiting as a developer on the other side of it?
Posted by ccricers@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 21 comments
What I've seen from a couple of devs after getting some IC experience is, they want to leave the 9-5 grind, find their own clients, then start an agency and hire other people to handle the expanding work and growth of business (because it becomes very difficult to scale by contracting solo). On the other end of it, developers often rank agency work to be among the worst kinds of developer jobs to start your career in. I find this to be a tad ironic. Several times have I seen developers in agencies looking to level up their careers to find something different because you'll stagnate there.
Is working for an agency ran by an ex-developer actually better and I'm just overestimating the amount of agencies ran with people with technical backgrounds? Does it actually just suck in the cases where the agency founders are non-technical people? Because from my own experience, it does appear to me that the only devs that would benefit from agency work experience in the long run are those that are above IC and just direct the churn of tech work without any foresight in a good technical process. I hope the agencies run by ex-developers at the least know how to enforce good testing and deployment practices.
Adept_Carpet@reddit
I think agencies can be an amazing place to begin a career, I'm talking about the very beginning, because you get exposed to a lot of different technologies, businesses, personality types, etc in a hurry. Since most devs also do some client communication they have a tendency to be like boot camps for the soft skills too.
But after a few years it levels off. You risk becoming an "expert beginner" without having deep knowledge of any one thing.
Certain_Syllabub_514@reddit
I started my first programming job for a very small agency (3 people, including me) in the 90s, and worked for a couple of other slightly larger agencies along the way.
It's an amazing place to learn because you'll be thrown into the deep-end on numerous occasions.
I highly recommend it early on in your career, when you're eager to learn and have enough energy to deal with constantly shifting landscapes.
AchillesDev@reddit
You're overestimating. Most of us doing this aren't building agencies to scale out a massive business that hires juniors, but as a way to be independent and work on what interests us. I do this and am in a few communities of developers who do this, and absolutely nobody I've met really desires to scale their agency beyond having some subcontractors available for work.
These kinds of agencies aren't great for juniors because you're consulting and advising - juniors aren't helpful at all here. The agencies where they are hired at are body shops that take a huge cut of the charge for the labor and pay the actual devs peanuts. These are bad places to start for obvious reasons, plus look bad on resumes and disconnect you from the long-term consequences of what you build.
Slow-Company-2960@reddit
Would you mind sharing where to find these communities? Could be on DM
AchillesDev@reddit
Ben Rogojan's Technical Freelancer Academy is really good, and Joe Reis' Practical Data Discord has a freelancing and consulting section for data people.
CompetitionOdd1582@reddit
I scaled for a few years, but we were never more than five people in the office. When COVID came, it knocked me on my butt financially and I had to lay people off. Haven't grown it since – sales is hard, we had too much downtime, and I make good money when I'm not keeping a team on payroll. Plus now I take half my week off instead of stressing every minute.
This guy's exactly right. The kind of consulting where you're there for your experience and your advice is about a hundred times more fun than the kind where you're just a butt in a seat.
originalchronoguy@reddit
The word agency means different things to different people in different markets.
In Europe, I understand, it is the equivalent of a Head Shop/ Consultancy / Engineering Shop in the US.
In the US, it can mean a small shop that is typically a "Studio" or a "Production" firm.
Which is sort of bastardized from Agency-speak in the Madison Avenue realm (the big bot Advertising Agencies) that hire smaller "studios" or shops.
If you worked at an Ogilvy, or Young and Rubicam or a tbwa chiat/day inc (the agency that represents Apple), McCann (Microsoft), you are in a very good place. The original Mad Men type agencies expose you to a lot of big work, big projects.
Versus the Kickstarter Facebook agency who does congressional election work.
So if you worked a McCann/Publicis (Mad Men) agency, it can propel your career.
Starting your own consultancy or what I just flat out call "Studio" (2-5 men or smaller), it is hard work and it is full of ego driven owners. Typically very toxic workplaces. You are also limited in the scope and scale of the work.
salamazmlekom@reddit
Who says starting career at an agency is bad? I actually learned so much more by switching projects and tech stacks working at an agency, compared to people that either got stuck with the same tech stack for years or had to switch companies every year to be challenged.
I actually would suggest everyone to start at an agency, try as many different things as possible to decide what you're best at and after few years either transition to product based company to get more depth or even better transition to contracting and earn more money.
cholantesh@reddit
There's obviously pros and cons to everything but I've gleaned that there's a perception that the sticktoitiveness needed to maintain a product long-term is not found in agency/consultancy (i personally don't see the difference) seasoned engineers.
Skullclownlol@reddit
Idk from what perspectives/experiences other people are posting, but in my experience it has been because most agencies are owned by non-technical businesspeople, especially ones that want to slack off and earn a fuckton on the backs of other people they don't care/want to understand.
While it's also true that starting your own agency is a route for some developers, it's the tiniest minority of technical people I know that ended up starting their own agency.
So the tiniest of technicals becoming founders + the majority of agencies being businesspeople-owned = Not mutually exclusive, and explains why it still makes sense to consider most agency work bad.
randbytes@reddit
you are correct but what benefits are you expecting? monetary benefits can be sometimes high for low level of effort. wrt technical aspects, agency or services work is seen inferior because the business nature of services determines the level of depth you can go and is dependent on just some immediate need of businesses, which tend be non-tech companies. So you are actually several layers away from vision of business.
Timely-Maybe-1093@reddit
Most small agencies need people hired to do their job and don’t need managers/ advanced roles until they grow like crazy.
They hire people to do dev work, they just need to keep doing dev work. Until they expand heavily and need to hire a very large team or many teams then they run into management problems and may need to bring in managers and leaders to guide the business, opening up opportunities.
A common thing people don’t realise, if you are the expert in your thing, why would someone promote you and take a chance at the next person maybe able to fill your shoes, they may be better off keeping you where you are and making that new person your manager.
couchjitsu@reddit
Being a developer and running a company, even a software development company are two completely different skills.
Affectionate-Bus4123@reddit
At the start, an IC going it alone is basically a freelancer. There is an ecosystem of freelancers, and hiring is via word of mouth and places like upwork. But mostly people try to do as much of the job themselves as they can and only hire trusted people because you are more accountable for problems than as an employee.
Anyway, when a business like that is successful enough to hire staff, it's either a Consultancy or a Software Development House.
Software Development Houses are most common in low cost labour countries. They might have a front man with a good network of CTO contacts in high cost countries to do the sales and human face bits. It's unusual to find these roles in high cost countries because there is no reason to do the work there.
Consultancies are more about providing people or solutions (depends). There are lots of small consultancies. Consultancies get some work via formal channels but a lot of it is the senior management using their networks to get work in. A lot of consultancies hire in low cost countries, but you do see plenty of consultancy jobs in high cost countries because the customer wants people they can physically meet, even if they are a thin layer over the low cost workers.
mxldevs@reddit
Depends on the agency's ability to get good projects. If you're mostly working with the same stack, working on mostly the same kind of projects (hey we specialize in building xyz application, we've done the same thing for n number of clients) then stagnation is inevitable.
I mean you can have the same issues in a larger company too but at least they might be able to assign you to a different project.
Your networking opportunities are also more limited.
davearneson@reddit
I've been an exec in an agency. The most important thing is to have people who are really good at finding clients, putting together compelling proposals and managing clients' egos without overpromising. Most agencies fail because the salespeople overpromise and underestimate. The next most crucial aspect is strong technical project management, which involves accurately scoping and estimating work, building proposals, managing changes, and recruiting and managing the team to ensure a successful and profitable outcome. Next is strong technical design and development skills. You can always hire these people if you are a strong technical manager.
mauriciocap@reddit
Notice you suddenly have a person who spent most of their life focused in code trying to sell, manage, hire, ...
Most accept any sell, believe it's easier than it is because of skills or code they have, forget to budget for the time to bill, negotiate, hire, manage and sunk their heads in code as always did ...
As usual, the better are both humbler and smarter, more realistic with their offer, budget, time. I spent most of my career in companies started by devs scaling their craft and was a joy. I learned a lot, got a lot of space to create things and mentoring, good money, awesome teammates...
TurboBerries@reddit
You dont learn all the skills required to become an agency owner by working for a company in a entry level contract. You would join with the contract already signed and be introduced to the client to work on grunt tasks. You probably wouldn’t learn anything more intricate because that stuff will be given to their home devs or more experienced devs that wont burn through the entire contract duration to complete it.
The only thing you will learn is how do you operate as a contractor once the client hires you.
Nofanta@reddit
This used to be much bigger but it’s not as common today. Many bigger employers sign agreements with larger agencies which prevent them from working with smaller agencies like the ones you’re describing.
irespectwomenlol@reddit
There's a difference between being an owner and an employee.
Working like a dog for ~100% of the profits in a company you control is different than working like a dog for a fraction of the profits in a company where you take shit from both the client and your boss.
snam13@reddit
I think you’re overestimating.
But even if you weren’t, it really depends on if the dev is the one managing the other devs. If the agency is smaller, more likely as the dev/founder does more work. If the agency grows, the dev/founder is probably not managing agency devs. Even if they were, most devs make bad managers and bad business people.
This is a gross generalization but I don’t think working for an agency founded/led by an ex-dev is that much better.