you joke but this is how it be feeling sometime
I was visiting there, used a friends dryer, this is a top of the line Miele dryer, took something like 6 hours on the default cycle, not even exaggerating. Posted about it on twitter, first guy to replied "connect with nature and hang dry! I hang dry all my clothes!"
yeah man lets give up all innovation and convenience so we can all save the environment right dude like there's a balance to be had and that balance is not 6hr dry cycles
The entire point of the green transition is having our cake and eating it too; you can produce a shit ton of energy and use it and not have nearly the same issues as if that happened with coal or gas
Idk how the EU went so far on the degrowth train, but it's quite weird. Like their obsession about not using AC and the public debates on it. Just mindless
Turning my AC to 18c powered by 100% renewable energy to own the Euros
> Idk how the EU went so far on the degrowth train,
When you primarily focus on social and green policies, move away from Nuclear energy, and rely on Russia for your energy needs. They then circle jerk about being green, but the reality is you can be green and have everything if you focus on the appropriate infrastructure.
Buying key resources from your nation's enemies is an odd move, but I guess nobody could have predicted the problems. Nobody at all. Not once has anyone said "hey wait a minute" in the past fifteen years.
> Buying key resources from your nation's enemies is an odd move, but I guess nobody could have predicted the problems
This is the one major advantage of these dictatorial states like China and Russia... they can play the long game, while the democratic states focus on election cycles and more immediate wins.
Xi/Putin can lay out a 30+ year plan, and nearly guarantee they'll remain in power to see them through.
You can lay traps for your enemies that are decades ahead.
The nuclear is especially strange coming from Germany. Okay, get rid of coal and whatever, that's fine. But turn on the nuclear at least? I really don't understand having such modern countries and purposefully starving your populace and industries with regards to energy. It's not like they don't have the expertise or capability, very strange.
There was a big anti-nuclear moment in Germany from way back. This current policy of shutting down nuclear plants is a result of decision made back then. Absolutely nothing in Germany happens within a short time after the decision was made, everything takes forever and a day.
So when young Germans are about to retire in the future they’ll finally be able to see the kind of things they’ve been asking for. Hopefully that includes having nuclear power again.
Yeah I'd be far less critical of the 6hr dry cycles if they didn't also shut down 37 nuclear plants within the last year and are shying away from nuclear altogether
That's the weirdest part for me, you want cheap energy to grow, don't want pollution **and** you don't want one of the most efficient ways to achieve that? And sure, let's get 90% of the country's energy from the guy you've been trying to sanction for the last 2 decades. I'm sure nothing will go wrong. German efficiency at it's finest.
Yeah because we're not gonna sit around sweating in the heat all summer or waiting two days for clothes to line dry in the winter or the wet, dude, we have appliances that work and we use them. Build in some air conditioning and buy dryers for your clothes.
I have two air conditioners and use a third of the American median. This isn't about comfort, this is about rampant consumerism and absolutely incredible waste.
And I already said: your dryers are gas-fired, they don't matter.
Most of our dryers are 240v, gas is common but probably less than half at this point. I have no idea how you decided to write such verifiably incorrect statements.
> The median American household uses as much electricity in 3-4 months as a German one does in a year. Yes, maybe you should hang-dry your clothes.
Exactly the sentiment I'm talking about, there's a balance between electric use and modern amenities, that balance for me is not hand drying clothes
> Hint: they're not gas fired and usually don't have an external exhaust
No idea what you are talking about, as I mentioned it is a top of the line Miele heat-pump dryer, nothing to do with gas or exhaust. The same dryer in the US takes 45min-1.5hr for a similar cycle
Here is the regulation responsible for it: https://energy.ec.europa.eu/news/new-measures-more-energy-efficient-household-tumble-dryers-1-july-2025-07-01_en
>and modern amenities
A dryer is a mostly useless kind of amenity, unless you live somewhere with a high humidity, which Germany has not. Your clothes are getting dry on their own, no need to waste energy.
Insane line of thinking, yes my clothes are going to get dry on my own *eventually*, its a welcome convenience being able to dry a batch within 30 seconds and not have to string them up one by one hoping for sun
>like sensible people with things to do
??? You hang the clothes on the line, forget about them and 1 say later you put them down again. You don't have to sit in front of them and watch them dry.
> 1 say later
You may be willing to wait around 1 day, I'm not, thank god we have modern conveniences, conveniences that Europe fails to recognize.
I genuinely don't understand how anyone thinks this is okay, we may as well stop showering and go bathe in the rivers too
I love that you're helpfully providing a perfect example of exactly the indignant American attitude that I was alluding to , the attitude that everyone outside your country rightly judges you for having. There's a reason "American exceptionalism" is a phrase and this little exchange here is such a nice demonstration of it that I ought to have it framed.
To you, it's your dryer. To your neighbor, it's a dryer and his 2nd SUV he totally needs in case he needs to tow for the 3rd time this decade. To your colleague, it's his ATV and his boat. To your mom it's the AC set to 18°C in summer and the heat set to 24°C in winter. And on and on and on, all of you think that any less consumption and comfort (read: waste and luxury) is tantamount to living in squalor and that conveniently, your *precise* level of existence ought to be the bare minimum.
[How odd.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita)
Absurd slippery slope fallacy, as I said there is a balance, that balance is not what we have in the US, I never said that the US was perfect, but that balance is not what Europe has either.
> the attitude that everyone outside your country rightly judges you for having.
I love that you're helpfully providing a perfect example of the modern European attitude, please continue to parade 3hr+ eco-friendly dry cycles while decommissioning dozens of nuclear plants, I hope you enjoy your degrowth
>but that balance is not what Europe has either.
Correct: even we use too much.
>while decommissioning dozens of nuclear plants
Europe is bigger than Germany, you are aware of that, right? And even Germany is getting over 50% of their power from renewables, compared to the American 8.7%.
You're in a glass house, if you weren't aware. Stop throwing stones.
>As I said, I'd be less critical of this if Europe didn't decommission 37 since the end of '24.
And I'd be more inclined to take you seriously if this wasn't another wild exaggeration with no sourcem, *and* no comparison to the US, **and** no mention of how many are being built and how much renewable capacity is being implemented instead.
Actually, let me rephrase: [this is just another blatant lie.](https://www.renewable-energy-industry.com/news/press-releases/pm-8407-nuclear-power-plants-37-nuclear-reactors-permanently-shut-down-in-europe-since-fukushima) You think you can decommission 37 reactors in ***9 months?!*** It's since 2011, over ***fifteen years***.
> he goes for the block when he loses the argument:
I blocked you because you lack reading comprehension
> 37 by the end of '24.
> You know we can see that you edited your comment, right?
Yes, I edited for grammar, not my wording.
> I think that says a lot.
Yes, yes it does
> Europe is bigger than Germany, you are aware of that, right? And even Germany is getting over 50% of their power from renewables, compared to the American 8.7%.
When was I not talking about Europe as a whole? Number 37 is including the rest of Europe https://www.renewable-energy-industry.com/countries/article-6886-nuclear-power-plants-europe-shuts-down-37-nuclear-power-plants-for-good-since-fukushima-shutdown-trend-continues
> And even Germany
Europe is bigger than Germany, you are aware of that, right?
> You're in a glass house, if you weren't aware.
A glass house with a great economy and dry clothes is a great house to be in
> ou think you can decommission 37 reactors in 9 months?! It's since 2011, over fifteen years.
BY end '24, when did I say otherwise?
This discussion is going nowhere, I hope you realize the sinking ship this attitude has put your country in, and hope you recover well.
No way man. We screwed up our climate so much that outside is a pollen bath 9 months of the year. Anything hung outside to dry would need to be immediately rewashed.
>No idea what you are talking about
Do you know how an American dryer usually works? On gas, with an external exhaust. In Europe, they're pretty much never gas and rarely if ever have an exhaust. More often than not they're combined washer-dryers, i.e. their performance is heavily compromised to begin with, *all because of home design*.
By the way, your 6 hour claim is **at least** 50% exaggerated. A *combined washing-drying cycle* is that long, and half of it is the wash. I just checked the values for a random Electrolux dryer (no washer) with a condenser (i.e. no exhaust) and there are programs from 50 minutes to 4 hours. Even the regulated, lab standard Eco program (that no one ever uses) is only 3:19. In other words, you're simply lying.
> Do you know how an American dryer usually works?
Do you realize you can own a heat-pump dryer in the United States? We are not legally required to own a gas dryer. I don't understand why you are generalizng the entire country
> By the way, your 6 hour claim is at least 50% exaggerated.
They can state what they would like in the manual, I know what I experienced. 3:19 is what it *should* take. You can believe I'm lying, I don't particularly care.
Even three hours in the default mode is insane
My dryer is electric and runs in an hour. If you stopped burning coal like luddits and invested in hydro, nuclear, and renewables you could also achieve this power!
I mean Europe and America are not the only two countries(\*) on earth
>If you stopped burning coal like luddits [sic]
Where I live coal is 4% and nuclear is 18% of electricity split. In the US it's 8.7% for both.
>I mean Europe and America are not the only two countries(*) on earth
And you are from...?
Not sure what piece of shit your friend owns but my European dryer takes like 2-2.5 hours, not long enough that it inconveniences me versus the old style at all since I don’t sit and watch my dryer anyway
Was this one of the combined washer dryer systems? They take for ever to dry shit because they use water instead of a heat pump for condensation.
A normal modern European dryer should be done in 1-2h tops.
No, dedicated new dryer, it defaults to the ECO 40-60 mode which takes twice as long as the same exact unit in America.
You can apparently just change it to the more powerful modes, which I must have missed, so its not all but but such a long cycle being the default is still insane to me
If it had numbers next to the eco it's a wash dryer.
The numbers are the temperature for the wash they make no sense for a dryer.
And looking at Miele dryers and wash dryers this is always the main differentiator on the face plate. The device itself looks more or less the same.
Miele washing machines are crazy silent so I wouldn't blame you if you didn't hear water rushing.
Also what do you mean with defaults? It's a dial. You set it do the desired program.
It's not a wash dryer, this is a T1 860
\> Also what do you mean with defaults?
Meaning if I throw everything in the dryer and start the "normal" cycle (no dial, just a touchscreen) it will take 6hrs
Why does a dryer have 40-60, no idea, but they had a separate W1 washer and T1 dryer, I didn't have issue with the washer
I honestly have no idea what dryer you're friend has. The only 860 models Miele has are either wash dryer or heat pump dryer. The latter take 3h in the slowest setting and then only when you put a full 9kg laundry in.
If they needed 6+ hours something was broken
Even if the latter says it will take 3h in manual, it did not take 3hrs
> only when you put a full 9kg laundry in
Well yes why would I do any less? Half a check in worth of clothing
The 3h is for the program that is used for certification. Those tend to take the amount they say. The other ones are shorter.
9kg would be two large laundry baskets. most people don't wash that much at once.
> The 3h is for the program that is used for certification. Those tend to take the amount they say. The other ones are shorter.
I understand, I have no issue if its opt-in, but its the default program
> 9kg would be two large laundry baskets
The dryer is built for the load, no issue with using it for what its built for
I remeber us making jokes about how they in China don't even know what a car looks like and they're all just riding their bycicles.
Guess what they now want their citizens to ride in. It's like we're here developing ... just backwards.
And even if its a "Zero Emission" car, it's now the Chinese taking over. "We want our citizens to drive around in environment friendly EVs" -> Proceeds to buy fairly priced BYD "No not like that"
You say this as if Germany wasn't heading down this road before the war. Also, if it were me, I'd be increasing the energy production after the war broke out so that the people could have cheap energy for production, heating, general quality of life. It just seems nonsensical either way I look at it. We really shouldn't be having energy struggles in the West with the technology we have.
It's a short read, but sums up their woes quite well. thank you to u/[malbecman](/user/malbecman/) for the gift article link
I like Porsches, they drive quite well, they always hit above their price point, but they weren't Ferrari. And that was a good bit of the appeal. But practically every luxury brand is hurting in china at the moment
I don't see how all these auto manufactures did not see China's grift coming. They do the same thing to every industry. You want to sell in China you need to give China part ownership of the part of the company in China. Then they have access to your intellectual property. Then they put it in their own cars that they heavily subsidise. Pricing you out of their market or taking complete control of your company like Volvo.
> I don't see how all these auto manufactures did not see China's grift coming.
I'd be surprised if they didn't see it, more that they saw it but didn't care about long-term outlook as they want to make the money *now*.
They didn't see it coming, because there was no "grifting" like OP was suggesting.
The shift to EV is what screwed Porsche and other Western OEMs over, not "IP stealing and subsidies". If that were the case Chinese ICE cars would have out-competed German OEMs a long time ago.
Western OEMs didn't see 2 things coming:
1. The Chinese market shifting to 50%+ EV in just 5 years.
2. Chinese OEMs (both battery and vehicle) product and technology achieving both capability and economical dominance over foreign OEMs in just 10 years.
Chinese consumers are now buying cars that's half as cheap and twice as good as your typical BMW/Mercedes/Porsche offering.
It’s worded confusingly but I think OP is saying in China you basically need to sell evs and the Chinese EVs are better than Porsche’sEVs. I think OP is right. Porsche’s EVs are a joke even compared to American competition.
Both ICE and EV macans are leaders in their category: [https://www.caranddriver.com/rankings/best-suvs/electric/luxury-compact](https://www.caranddriver.com/rankings/best-suvs/electric/luxury-compact)
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Car and Driver is an *American publication* focused on the U.S. market and has **absolutely nothing to say about the Chinese market**.
They do not review *any* Chinese OEM EVs.
Yeah, so Porsche can beat Genesis, Polestar, Audi, Volvo and Jag but can't beat some $25k chinese crap? You are funny. I've been to Aruba a few times where they are in love with chinese crap. If you think this is better than Porsche then I have nothing else to say.
>Yeah, so Porsche can beat Genesis, Polestar, Audi, Volvo and Jag but can't beat some $25k chinese crap?
Pretty much, yeah.
* [Why Porsche Is No Longer a ‘Premium’ Sports Car in China](https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/17/business/porsche-china-germany.html) — NY Times
* [Porsche says its business model "no longer works”](https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/porsche-says-its-business-model-no-longer-works) — CarExpert
Welcome to 2025, champ.
Homie, Porsche being unaffordable at current price point and interest rate environment doesn't make it a shitty car. My loaded Macan S cost me around $70k in 2015 at 4% rate environment, then 2019 Macan S was around $80k at 5% and current Macan EV is $100k+ with 10% interest. That's 70% payment increase.
You can make same argument that SFH are no longer premium in the US and condo rules. This doesn't make condo better than SFH.
Now go back to your 1991 civic and keep rationalizing how it's a premium sports car.
> Porsche can beat Genesis, Polestar, Audi, Volvo and Jag but can't beat some $25k chinese crap?
Correct, because the "Chinese junk" is better than all of those cars, *by a mile*.
The CEO of Ford these days daily drives a [Chinese junk](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a62694325/ford-ceo-jim-farley-daily-drives-xiaomi-su7/) and loves it.
Ferrari is benchmarking against a "Chinese junk": https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1md8v9l/report_ferrari_were_so_impressed_by_the_xiaomi/
Btw, the Porsche that you love so much, uses **Chinese CATL batteries**.
According to you, the Macan EV is also "Chinese junk", just more expensive with less tech lol.
> Btw, the Porsche that you love so much, uses Chinese CATL batteries.
This is the most ironic part that K1net3k doesn't understand. K1net3k keeps harping on Chinese "junk" this, Chinese "junk" that, and yet the most critical component of the Porsche Macan EV is the CATL battery that is made in China, lol.
The car you so love, the Porsche Macan, uses batteries from China, specifically CATL batteries. If the stuff that China creates is "junk," why is your beloved Porsche Macan using batteries from China?
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You are ignoring price point and comparable features plus market preference regardless of price point. Why else would you think Porsche is failing in china?
First of all, there is no Macan GTS EV, so I don't know what you are talking about.
A quick look around and you see a ton of options:
[Zeekr X](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeekr_X): 3.8s 0-60, 300mi+ range, <20min 10-80% charging. Better software, better tech, and better ADAS systems. Price: **$27k USD**. That's about **25%** the price of a Macan 4S EV.
[Nio ES6](https://www.nio.com/es6) and [XPeng G7](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XPeng_G7) are all competitive cars on spec, with better interior, better luxury, and better tech than the Porsche, for about *30-40%* the price of a Macan 4S EV.
Do you want more examples?
No dude, you made your point. If you think the junk you referred to in the links is better than Porsche then I have nothing else to say as you are hopeless.
> If you think the junk you referred to in the links is better than Porsche then I have nothing else to say as you are hopeless.
Why do you even have opinions on things you've zero experience of?
How many Porsches have you owned (look at my flair), when was the last time you drove an Macan EV? [Here is where I wrote about my experience](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1fskugo/i_drove_the_new_macan_ev_and_i_was_quite_impressed/), when was the last time you experienced any of the Chinese cars in person?
Again, you really don't have any experience about this subject, why do you insist on having an opinion?
Just commenting to appreciate you writing up these insights in the sea of ignorance that is this thread. As somebody working at one of your named OEMs, I think you are spot on.
Reading your comments, it's quite incredible that people are *still* this ignorant of the issue with Chinese market even *after* all that's happening.
>You want to sell in China you need to give China part ownership of the part of the company in China
**Wrong**. Porsche did not do any of that and they did not enter JV or any other IP sharing agreement *whatsoever* in China. All of their cars are imported from Germany directly.
>Then they put it in their own cars that they heavily subsidise.
Are you saying Porsche was only selling in China because there were no cheaper alternatives?
No, there have always been cheaper alternatives to Porsches. But Chinese still bought more Porsches than anyone because the wealthy were willing to pay for better products.
Porsche no longer sells in China because the Chinese OEMs now make **better cars** than Porsche, at *any price*. China has shifted into an EV-dominated market and Porsche EVs are inferior to Chinese EVs, simple as that.
It's true though. The Chinese market doesn't care about 911s and 718s, they only care about Cayennes, Macans and Taycans. And Chinese brands make better luxury products than those at a lower price to boot.
I'll show you a [comment](https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/porsches-china-sales-sink-nearly-30-in-first-half-putting-brakes-on-global-momentum) straight from the CEO instead:
> At the 2024 earnings conference, Chief Executive Officer Oliver Blume attributed Porsche’s underperformance in China to the rapid changes in the market, saying that the firm has failed to keep pace with shifting consumer preferences.
They care more about luxury, tech and gimmicks over performance over there and the Chinese OEMs are better at catering to that. You won't expect Citroen to come to the US and make a striking F-150 competitor would you?
I know what you meant about the Chinese woes not being their fault, but the reality is they sleep walked into that mess. They could see what was happening, just like everyone else and just thew their hands in the air and said “nothing we can do”.
>just like everyone else and just thew their hands in the air and said “nothing we can do”.
The Chinese forced the transition of their market to EV dominance, and heavily pushed EV tech across their entire automotive industry.
The transition was extremely sudden (by automotive scale) and it wasn't a pure force of market. So not sure what the traditional Western OEMs could have done to compete.
There are two major issues facing Western OEMs:
1. It costs a ton of money to invest in EVs, especially if you have a lot of baggage from traditional suppliers and manufacturing and you still need to cater toward conservative markets like the U.S.
2. Luxury brands do not retain the same value proposition in the world of EVs due to the standardization of powertrain. A Mercedes EV is less luxurious and has worse tech than a Chinese one at half the cost while offering no powertrain advantage. A Porsche Taycan is three times the price of a competitor while offering no meaningful differentiation to the typical consumer.
There is almost nothing Porsche *could* have done to avoid getting outcompeted in the Chinese market.
Oh boo hoo. That's like saying the 1970s oil crisis wasn't pure market forces because Saudi Arabia got involved.
Porsche is a loser because they chose not to adopt, just like the US manufacturers in the 1970s, and better companies will take their place. That's how it works.
That's really not how it works.
Porsche was dependent on Audi to develop the new platform for the breadwinner models (called PPE for BEVs and PPC for ICEVs) and Audi fucked that up to such a degree that the new BEV models were delayed by 2+ years and when they came out they still had fairly messy SW plus it simply lacvks a lot of the newer fancy SW features that are in vogue in China.
Both Audi and Porsche are currently suffering massively from this. Especially so in China, but also in most other important markets.
But PPE/PPC is getting better every year and they are working on the next platform already. They won't go bankrupt from this in the mean time.
> Porsche is a loser because they chose not to adopt,
It was *hard* to adopt.
Until very recently, Porsche's number 1 market was China, number 2 market was the U.S.
But due to a number of factors, the two markets went completely different directions, with now the U.S. being one of the most conservative auto markets in the world and China being one of the most progressive auto markets in the world.
>That's how it works.
I don't disagree.
And they and everyone in else in the general luxury market incl. lvmh, kering & co. could not have completely forecast the pandemic.
Their response could have been better, but the shift in consumer sentiment and the economic slowdown of the past few years was unpredictable to some degree
Like 65% of Porsche's wounds are self inflicted but just saying there's that last 35% where its like, the world turned upside down for a while, absolutely nobody knew how everyone would settle following, a few firms won out, many didn't
Yep, putting aside the EV and China issues (which to be fair are some of the bigger issues they’re currently dealing with), the other question will be whether or not their recent pivot on a business model perspective is sustainable over the long-term.
They’re obviously pushing to move further upmarket, with the view that they can push pricing increases at a rate above industry/inflation, because they feel they are in a unique market position and consumers will take it. Historically, this has been proven to be true - setting aside COVID-related supply dynamics, they’ve increased US sales volumes as well as pricing at the same time. So this has of course been supporting their pricing strategy.
In addition, you’ve seen a push into expansion of special models, PTS, and bespoke customization (this is a notable point that is highlighted in research analyst / investor discussions), particularly the latter two since they are high margin, low R&D/Capex. Also part of the broader strategy to push upmarket. Additionally, interestingly you see some investors debating whether or not it is even worth it to create a next-gen ICE Macan or 718, largely because they contradict with the strategy to move upmarket
The question ultimately is whether or not the Porsche brand and importantly the actual products themselves, can sustain this upward push. While Porsche is in a unique spot where they don’t have any direct strong competitors (Maserati is extremely weak, Bentley / Aston are a tier above, and Ferrari is two steps above) and thus can play around more with their market positioning/pricing, they’ll ultimately be limited by if customers feel the product is worth it.
At least on our consumer-facing side, it seems to be that we’re bumping up against that point now/soon, especially for the more standard models. Despite products like the 911 and Cayenne clearly being a tier up over others in their class (Corvette and X5 for example), I don’t think they can fully break away from at least being in part compared to those vehicles. There’s not enough product differentiation - Porsche is still mainstream enough that they’re not considered exotic, and feature vs. feature they’re not differentiated either
Your last sentences are daunting. Theres no competition for Porsche which, in my opinion, even enabled the chokehold upper Mgmt could use to thrive prices up.
I'd be in the market for a Boxster for the Wife and a Macan if we had Kids. Now with both of them being discontinued we either have to buy used or stretch reeeaallly far up market into Aston DBX, Bentley Bentayga etc. levels. For the Boxster theres no replacement even available that i'd be aware of.
test deive a miata and convince yourself to buy something more expensive
yes it's a meme but I was tempted to buy one instead of the cheap 3 hatch I had money for. anticipating kids I absolutely could not justify it. but seriously if you want a fun car to drive... anything notably better is also way more expensive
Thats the thing, Boxster has the Badge and the leather and the looks for her and the engine for me.
A Miata can't scratch that itch, although a fantastic car. I picked a ND up as my nephews first car, figured he'll get less stupid ideas with only one friend next to him instead of carrying 3 with a backrow.
Honestly, I’m glad anytime I see a company eat shit when they do that artificial scarcity. Or when they forced you into buying crap, you don’t want just to get considered for their product.
I will gladly take CPO and used over helping them with that policy
The dealership/allocation games, or even just the perception that they're going to happen, *must* be hurting sales in key high margin markets by now - especially now that economic conditions aren't as strong as they once were.
I also think the end of production of the combustion Macan in particular must have hurt sales. It was their volume seller, and those things, at least in Australia are everywhere. And while I don't mind the look of the new EV Macan, the price point isn't nearly as sharp and I've only seen a relatively small number of them rolling around.
I think so, especially for people that are comfortable, but not massively wealthy. Where they can comfortably afford a new GT4 but don’t have the money to pay another 80 grand in adjusted market.
At some point, they’re just gonna go elsewhere. Yeah that was a huge seller and I saw a day-to-day driving around the Naples.
I think when the house is fully paid off and the economy doesn’t look so trash due to horrible blood administration choices.
Are used P car would be in the cards. But unfortunately, I don’t think I ever see myself buying one New.
> Where they can comfortably afford a new GT4 but don’t have the money to pay another 80 grand in adjusted market.
Or the money to soak the losses on the several lower-tier cars that they're expected to buy new and trade in to "prove their worth" to buy a GT car.
Yup, and there’s a problem. It could be somebody that’s been saving a long time who has a home paid off and living on a retirement that’s comfortable. They have enough to afford a new car New and call it a day they can afford the maintenance.
But they can’t afford the three junk cars Porsche makes you buy nor the $80,000 add-on for Fonzie
Porsche used to be basically the best you got before you got to exotics, and that was a great niche
Now? What's the point if a top trim Q6 will do the same shit for $10,000 CAD less for a top trim model with all the fixing versus a stripper Macan?
As a kid, I used to dream about a Porsche. And don’t get me wrong riding in a Cayman and a 911 is absolutely a dream. But one day if I’m able to have the money for one of these new, I’m not gonna sit around on a waitlist or buy a whole bunch of crap I don’t want from them.
And you’re right there’s competitive options for less.
I just wanted to order a Cayman in a good color, with a manual transmission and a rear wiper, and the Porsche dealerships made it so difficult I went and got a used 911 Turbo for $10k less. My wife and I loved it so much we bought an aircooled 911, and now I have zero desire to ever buy a new Porsche
Honestly, that sounds like the reality I’m expecting. I know at the dealership level they want the cash cow that’ll pay anything for what they want.
But you’re pushing away people like you that just wants a cool car. You’re willing to buy New, but they made it a hassle for you.
It's just become an exotic imo; which again, is totally fine. But I always thought of Porsche as something anyone could afford eventually, if they really wanted to. It's not like a Ferrari where you basically have to be rich or stupid to own one, even a cheap used one
Then on the low end, you just have the privilege of paying more for less; like I said a fully loaded Q6 e tron or based zero options Macan is not a very difficult choice. Do they drive and look different? Sure. I doubt it's THAT big of a difference
Even then there’s a difference between exotic, and just artificially gate kept. To your point, Ferrari has put so much effort into gate keeping its products that they’ve become irrelevant to anyone under 35. Obviously the general public isn’t buying these cars, but these things are status icons more than anything else, if people don’t aspire to have them, they become worthless, it’s a huge brand crisis. Meanwhile every celebrity is rolling around in a Lambo or McLaren because *they’ll actually let you buy one*. The result is those brands now have way more mind share, and thus value, amongst the younger crowd.
Am I experienced driving those models, but not owning them. I can see why they earned their reputation they did. It felt like my Miata but more.
Looking around on Facebook marketplace and the forums Porsches from my middle school days or just now starting to be in the $10,000 price point.
Yeah, modern wise, they’ve gotten a bit too big for their britches
Yeah I see Macan's everywhere. More than any other porsche. Losing that is not going to go very well for porsche.
The people buying Macan's also aren't going to be buying the electric version.
This is an NA exclusive problem btw. I can order my car directly from porsche to the nearest hub of my choice and pay the price thats in the configurator.
I had 0 Porsches before the 991 (bought used recently) and would have been able to order a S/T.
Oh yeah, here in the US the car dealership lobby groups have made it near impossible to just cut them out. Tesla so far has been the only successful one on large scale
They made sense back in the 50s and the 60s but in 2025 as a consumer getting no value from a dealership. The manufacturer will sell plenty of cars that well established so they don’t need a dealership anymore. But the dealership says that you need a dealership and their groups pay a lot of Congress.
Dealership decides who to sell to
GT3 RS = rare labubu = mfr’s fault
GT3 RS requires you to play stepping stone game over many years before they’ll even discuss it with you = dealer’s fault
I don't know why you get downvoted, since you're telling the truth. In switzerland i can just order the Car i want from Porsche. As a 0-Porsche Car Owner they treated me as nice and welcoming as they did with the old chap that wanted a third Cab for his fifth GF.
I sure hope so lol. Getting stuck with three cars I don’t want just to be considered to buy the fun one. Seems a really shitty way to do a business.
Profitable sure, but not obtainable and sustainable for the masses to aspire to. Then again they probably don’t care about the masses buying their vehicles.
The issue is that anyone who has the money to buy multiple Porsches, including a super-high-priced limited edition model, is also in the income bracket to just go full-exotic. And other than Ferrari the exotic makers are a whole lot more accommodating. That makes them the better value.
You have to buy their cars to have a chance at getting an allocation for one of their other cars.
And often have the privilege of paying $30k markup for it.
Buy this Taycan, Macan, and you’ll get a stripper 911. Buy two more just to get considered for the Carrera T. God help you if you want a GT3. No. You have to have 10 years purchase history to even smell the contract.
I’m over it. I grew up in the 90s drooling over Porsches. Today, I just don’t even bother. Ferrari just packed their shit in at LeMans anyway. Git gud.
In Germany its not like that anymore, they are struggling to shift GT3s so you can walk in and buy one, they pretend its hard to get but they know they screwed it up with the insane price increase that propelled the gt3 into a class where people consider other luxury sport cars that are maybe not better but a lot more special feeling...
You can’t buy the model you want unless you buy another model first. In other words, they save allocations of the highly desirable models for repeat customers.
If you want to buy a Submariner or a Daytona a Rolex dealer won't let you buy them directly. You have to buy a Date-Just and an Oyster and a Day-Date before they'll let you buy the higher tier models
The 944/928 were great ideas the Boxster/cayman were bread winners. Then they just decided they did not want normal people to buy cars. They need a volume model as much as they don't think they do.
Specifically they decided they don't want normal people to buy *sports cars*. Normal people get their rebadged VW crossovers. But if that's all the further those people will go in the brand eventually those people will just get the VW badged version and pay substantially less for the same car.
The 928 was their flagship model. For most of its run, it was marketed as higher than the 911.
If they brought it back for the same market segment, it'll probably start around 250k today.
It's just that today, the 928 heavily depreciated and is barely wanted by anyone because almost nothing in the car would stay in working condition, alongside not carrying the same prestige that it used to.
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its peaking up a tiny bit of steam, there's a restomod now for it too, I don't think they'll ever reach 911 type audiences but I think the 44 & 28 will pick up a little more traction soon
The biggest reason the 924, 944, and 928 are picking up again is because you can actually pick one up on the marketplace for less than 5k, which runs and drives without a ridiculous amount of miles. The motor on all the cars is actually pretty solid and not the hardest to work on. A car like this is actually a bit of a bargain compared to more popular cars like any old Japanese 2-door car/roadster, while still having a robust drivetrain and suspension. Still, it won't last long if it gets more popular.
I've been considering picking one up for my girlfriend as they get decent mpg and aren't that expensive to insure, either. The Lincoln Mark VIII and 10th-gen Ford Thunderbird have really good prices as well.
I always preferred how the 944's drove over the equivalent Carreras too.
But understandably, over time people stopped caring about the balance and objective brilliance of the 944 and favored the unique charm of the 911 series.
Which is great for the rest of us, I always wanted to restore a 928 but I haven't ever had the space or time.
EU regulation forcing the retirement of the 718/982 platform is going to hurt them even further. As in the demographic, I can’t imagine others in my shoes are seriously considering the EV platform that’s replacing it. Rather just going to buy used or go a different route.
And I’m willing to bet the Macan/Cayenne customers are just Porsche car guys who need to get their wife/kids a car too. There’s an imbedded loss in that if things keep goin this way.
> I can’t imagine others in my shoes are seriously considering the EV platform that’s replacing it.
I am. But maybe crucially, I'm very much *not* a Porsche person. I didn't care about them one bit until they released the Taycan. And I still don't care about any of their ICE cars. I can't stand the GT3 RS. So maybe the Boxster/Cayman EV will bring new buyers like me to the brand. It's possible that's their bet, while pushing legacy buyers like you toward the 911.
If you're asking why I'm not a Porsche person and don't care about their ICE cars, as far as ownership I'm only interested in EVs - ideally a convertible. The only competition is the Maserati Grancabrio Folgore. It's excellent...if you ignore that the real world range is less than 200 miles and the touchscreen sometimes has *leisurely* response time. It also costs twice what the Boxster will.
I don't want a sedan. I want a convertible. I think the Boxster EV will be very good, particularly in the driving experience. My main concerns are the suspension being too firm, not enough sound deadening to save weight, and a boring interior. But I hope I'm wrong about all that.
The issue is when you buy an electric car you are mainly buying a piece of software and Porsche is not good at software. I have extremely low expectations on the Boxer EV and suspect it will be delayed significantly.
I don't agree that an EV is mainly a piece of software. And whether or not it is, Porsche have managed to give the Taycan and Macan EV good driving characteristics. There's no reason to believe the Boxster EV will be any different. It has been significantly delayed, but from what I understand that's mainly because their battery supplier went bankrupt in the middle of development.
You're entitled to your opinion. They're not price competitive, but I disagree that they're not good. I have no doubts about the driving characteristics of the Boxster EV based on the Taycan and Macan EV. If you think otherwise you don't have to buy the Boxster.
Lol driving characteristics? Give me a fucking break. It’s a battery and electric motor. You can get the same “driving characteristics” (actually better battery/electric motor) in a Hyundai.
You’re probably completely right. I have absolutely no interest in Porsche other than the gas powered 911, I don’t even want the new hybrid version. If I were to buy an EV or a fast nice SUV there’s so much competition that Porsche doesn’t have all that much different to offer.
Could you help me with the competition for SUVs? Because i'm at a loss, in my view the competitiors are way higher in the market, like Astons DBX or Bentley Bentayga.
I dislike modern Audis interior for their blandness and cheap looks with the fake Aluminium and glossy piano black, also the infotainment looks depressing with all the shades of Grey in there.
I don't want a Macan, DBX or Bentayga for performance, they're SUVs. All they have to do is look and feel nice, pretty and special in commutes.
If i want performance, i'll get a performance vehicle and for me performance starts first and foremost with a low center of gravity to rotate around.
The Cayenne Turbo GT starts at 250k, my configuration is 310k for it. At this point, an Aston with Merc Tech or a Bentley is just way more special.
This is where we differ. I’m purely a performance and practicality guy, I want my daily driver to be comfortable and still be quicker than everything else on the road, but I don’t care much for exclusivity. The RSQ8 delivers the best value in the segment which is why I personally like it. The x5M is a good close second but it has no tow rating nor a factory hitch option which rules it out for practicality.
I don’t know what Porsche was attempting to do. I’ve got two, but I’m definitely not the demographic they’re targeting with their new cars. They’ve become way too into themselves and exclusivity when before they were always the “easy” choice. I’ve attempted to order a Cayman twice in my life at two different dealers, and the first one didn’t want to place the order until I put enough options on it to pay for a 911, and the second one was making me jump through hoops just to get an allocation on a Cayman T of all things.
> I don’t know what Porsche was attempting to do
They wanted to be a brand like modern Rolex. Good product (but not top tier, especially in the price segment), largely hype driven, artificially scarce, and forcing potential customers into "relationship building" if they want the higher end product.
The issue is they did this while also attempting to be a volume auto manufacturer. That doesn't work.
That, combined with pushing too hard into EVs, and here we are.
I don't think _artificially_ scarce is accurate for Porsche, with the exception of special edition models (Sport Classic, Dakar, S/T — and even those are barely limited, combining for over 5k units). They make as many 911s as their factory can, and as many cars with that N/A 4.0 as fleet emissions regs will allow.
Their pricing on four-door products makes absolutely no sense though, you're absolutely right about that. The volume models are just silly. Yeah, a Cayenne is better than an X5, but it's damn sure not 30k better.
I guess what I meant by artifically scarce aligns more with making their desireable cars unobtainable via the preferred allocation game. They are taking the Ferrari approach, and I promise that long term this will cost them young interested buyers.
Yeah I don't get why they refuse to sell many cars and opt for selling way less of them for more. You can't tell me as a dealer you earn more from one or two big sales than multiple smaller ones.
I see you have no idea what the margin looks like on new cars and options packages.
On a base model with no options at all the dealer might clear less than $500 in profit sometimes. On the options packages, however, a dealership might see more like 20-30% margin meaning on a $4,000 option/package the dealer makes more profit from the options upsell alone than from the entire base model vehicle.
Ditto....always wanted a 911 when I was younger, but from ~997.1 onward, things have been a slow downhill slide into "shite don't stink" attitude. I miss the more humble, "everyman sports car" image Porsche used to have.
Funny, BMW seems to be filling that role. They consistently make fun cars, no matter if you’re driving an M4 or a base 3 series. I have a hybrid X5 that on paper should be a snooze yet it has a sport mode where the suspension lowers and does 0-60 in 4.5s. I almost bought a Z4 instead of my Porsche but depreciation is very different between the two.
Brand image is the big problem with BMW.
Atleast in europe all the Balkan racers, speeder, illegal drifters and "finance as 4 and sleep in 1 bedroom" give AMG and BMW a bad image.
I wish there was a single Discussion about Porsche on Reddit where it doesnt revolve around US-Dealerships and their ADM/Scarcity shenanigans. Because thats an US-Exclusive problem (hey, atleast you get one exclusive from Porsche, right? /s)
I'm way more interested in why Porsche has choosen to move their pricing up the range so far, that they cut off the upper-middle class. The 911 was the Car your uncle showed up in that worked as an Architect, Construction contractor or Banker. In 2025 as a DINK in upper-middle class in early 30s, we can't sensibly buy a 911, let alone a GT3.
Which is a shame because we have some money to spend, since owning an apartment is unrealistic, but Porsche moved up too fast, so we can't throw it at them.
Agreed, there are literally hundreds of 718 RS models on mobile.de and last I heard you could basically walk into any of their dealerships and custom order one of the two no problem.
I‘m sure it‘s different with more exclusive models like the S/T, but how many buyers can seriously consider one at that price point, anyway?
And I‘m with you, the price increases in the last couple of years were insane. Ten years ago buying a (modestly configured) Carrera S at around 90 to 110k€ seemed doable somehow, now most base models are sitting on dealer lots at 150k€. And you can‘t even get them with a manual anymore.
Fun fact: The price i've bought the R8 and the 991 GTS for, wouldnt pay for a 992 Carrera T (you could even add in our F56 Cooper JCW).
So i think it kinda does? We're both in well paid fulltime jobs with no kids, yet can't afford a 992 GT3. We could stretch into a Carrera T with financing, but my wife asked me an important question when i showed her a nice configuration for a T: "Isnt the Ferrari Roma you liked so much cheaper?". And yes, the slightly used one would be cheaper.
I've been to one of the major car import docks here in Australia and they don't park Porsches undercover anymore. They sit out with the rest of the normal cars. The other exotics like Rolls, Bentley's, Lambo, Ferrari get to stay in the sheds. Even the guys who drive them off the boats don't think they are special anymore.
I said this in another thread today.
Porsche went from an enthusiast brand to a luxury fashion brand.
They need a new sub-boxster/cayman car in the $50-80k range to get people in the brand. Or c8 corvettes are going to eat their lunch.
Yup. The C8 basically eats thier lunch in the entry level market for them. They need a new Boxer that they can get people into the brand that competes with the C8. Otherwise people will just buy C8's instead becuese you can walk into any Chevy Dealership and order one today with zero problems and zero bullshit.
Agreed.
I always wanted a boxster. My dad just got a new cayman S in November. He waited 2 years. When it was his turn to spec it they told him he had to option the car up to over $110k or they would put him at the back of the line. Just insane. In completely turned me off the brand.
Even used Porsches are way out of line for what you get.
Only a casual watch guy. But the purchase process sounds the same between the two brands.
Just to put things in perspective. I have a seiko sxk009 and an ND2 Miata.
Maybe one day I’ll have a used speedmaster and a c8
Porsche selling point was top shelf driving dynamics and performance without the snob attitude of Ferrari.
Then they started to go upmarket, limit sales of GT models, pricing the 911 to stratospheric levels etc.
I still think they make great cars, but this is a much needed wakeup call to the management at Stuttgart to think what went wrong.
Unless you're talking about something like a 911 S/T, the GT models aren't even limited. They make thousands more than they used to 15+ years ago. The issue is how hyped Porsche got, the fallout of the pandemic, and the fact that we are living in another gilded age where income and wealth inequality is through the roof.
Also people talk shit about the 911 GT3 having huge price hikes, but they ignore that every car above it also went way up in price. Have you seen what it costs for a Ferrari 296 GTB or Lamborghini Temerario? I hate that Porsche doesn't crack down on dealer markups more, but a lot of their issues seem to be coming from global regulations and economies.
Someone seems to be limiting GT car sales, and if it's not the manufacturer it's the dealers, in that the dealers are demanding relationships and markups, right?
When the 991 GT3 came out people were selling build slots and dealers charged huge markups, but towards the end of production, you could walk in and buy one at MSRP. Do we think we can buy a 992 GT3 at MSRP?
Porsche wasn’t behind the ADMs and dealer shenanigans.
They bet on China and failed, they also bet on EVs too quickly without leaving ICE options on the table.
Bring back an ICE or hybrid Macan and keep the ICE Cayenne and they’ll recover. Also, dial back Taycan production for now. While it’s a phenomenal car the high MSRP and heavy depreciation isn’t doing anything for the brand
Hmm maybe they should release a couple more bullshit special editions locking away all the features people actually want and raise the price again on the base 911.
Get ready for the Porsche 911 B/S super special edition with table cloth interior and an $80k paint to sample eggshell grey option starting at $180k but every dealer will mark it up by $100k
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