Tiller feels VERY heavy, and boat is hard to keep on course
Posted by WackyJackKerouac@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 76 comments
As the title states. I had a 27 foot Newport, (fin keel, spade rudder with tiller) out over the weekend in about 10-12 kts of wind. Waves were probably 1-2 feet. There was a lot of powerboat traffic due to the holiday weekend and an air show visible from the water - so of course that didn't help things.
The entire time the tiller felt very heavy like I had to put a considerable amount of my bodyweight into keeping the boat on course - in BOTH directions. And the boat seemed very drifty ... leaving me almost sawing the tiller back and forth with each swell to keep on course.
I'm a reasonably new sailor so there is a high chance I had the sail trim way off, but would it make it that terrible to control the boat in both directions?
What should I be checking first? Sailing lessons??
Also, advise me if this layout is typical of a tiller-steered cockpit and people just deal with it? I was sawing back and forth about 18" off center on the tiller and I had 3 adults, 3 kids on the boat, and there was literally nowhere to "be" without getting in the way of steering.
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
Additionally - I just can't wrap my head around how people will set the sails, and then go on the bow to maybe pull in the fenders, for example. This boat would be 180º in the wrong direction in about 30 seconds. Something seems way off...
artfully_rearranged@reddit
That is something you won't be doing in a tiller boat without an autopilot, "tiller tamer"-like device, or a bungee cord. Let go of the tiller, you're steering via the sail. Most wheel-steered boats have a tension knob on the wheel that keeps the position of the rudder. Tiller boats, you get used to steering with your knees, thighs, whatever frees a hand for a second.
I have the $60 Davis Tiller Tamer, and it works well for keeping the tiller in position. The boat will start to round up in time and I wouldn't go forward while heeling, but you can let go of the tiller at need for a few seconds to fix the fenders.
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
I think the Tiller Tamer is a good bet! I didn't realize it was that cheap
artfully_rearranged@reddit
You do have to buy a set of cam cleats so that the line is quick release. Like the Davis Windex, the UV protection seems to be minimal, so you might also have to replace it every few years when it gets brittle.
RedditIsRectalCancer@reddit
Tell me you don't know how to balance the sail plan without saying you don't know how to balance the sail plan.
LegitMeatPuppet@reddit
To sail straight with no rudder input you need both sails to be balanced and you also want the boat to be sailing relatively little heal. It is definitely a more advanced sailing skill that comes with practice and it really helps to have a sailing venue with no wind-shifts so you can tinker with the sheets and then feel how it impacts the rudder input. If you have a big jib with a lot of overlap then you likely need to adjust your jib sheet cars.
enki-42@reddit
Sailing absolutely balanced is for sure an advanced skill, but if you have so much weather / Lee helm that you have to put coverage effort on the tiller just to maintain course, basic sail trim should be able to correct that.
seamus_mc@reddit
You can tie off the tiller for a quick task. Poor man’s autopilot
IDreamOfSailing@reddit
That's what I did on my 21-footer, and I used my body weight to make the boat heel to keep it more or less on course. I can't do it as well anymore on my 30ft boat.
wanderinggoat@reddit
its hard to know without being their and knowing your sailing experience. If you suspect its your sail trim then let the sails out until they start fluttering then pull them in just a little until they stop. see how that changes the steering.
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
Will try it out - thanks!
TheRadness@reddit
Sail balance might be off. Too much jib/not enough main power. Or vice versa. If it wants to bear away, try easing the jib. If it’s turning up, try easing the main. It should sail relatively straight with minimal effort on the tiller when the sails are close to being balanced.
jawisi@reddit
This would make sense if it were hard to push in one direction. But in both directions?
n0exit@reddit
It sounds to me like your rig is way out of balance. My 26-ft boat has a pretty much perfectly balanced helm. Even in pretty heavy weather it doesn't take much effort to keep her on track.
get_MEAN_yall@reddit
On my old Pearson the autopilot would be required to do that. She rounds up immediately on main only
dmootzler@reddit
Wouldn’t any boat? You need a headsail to balance the main and prevent rounding up
get_MEAN_yall@reddit
Most of the time. Sometimes the steering assembly is stiff enough and they have a long keel so you can just let go. On a cape dory 30 for example you can get them to go straight for a while
No_Childhood446@reddit
I will say this, a boat can be steered by the sails. In higher winds, it can overpower the rudder. Make sure you're trimmed right. That's important. And could be what a big part of the problem is.
TheMayorMikeJackson@reddit
Sail balance also requires the sails to be sized correctly relative to each other. Then it’s about balancing with the keel and you can sail and steer a bit with a fixed rudder if you practice
MisterMasterCylinder@reddit
My boat is pretty touchy with respect to sail trim and steering. I need to engage the auto-tiller to go forward if I'm solo.
But it doesn't fight me like the way you described. Something is up there. I'd start with scrutinizing sail trim first because it doesn't cost anything. But you shouldn't have to be using your bodyweight to steer a 27 foot boat.
futurebigconcept@reddit
Do you not have an engine to motor slowly into the wind while hoisting? If not, it will take more skill to launch, set sails and return to slip.
When overpowered (weather helm), drop the traveler, then sheet out as needed
If the rudder is a balanced design and feels 'janky', it could be at the wrong angle of attack.
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
Did some more investigation yesterday. Rudder is fine. However, the mast has a pretty significant forward rake. The red line is a halyard hanging with a few lbs of weight, flying free with little to no wind. Maybe 5-6" over the full height (32 feet-ish) which is about a degree of forward rake. I know it should have about 3" of backwards rake, according to general guidelines.
I am reading that forward mast rake would give pretty bad lee helm.
Is this only adjusted by forestay/backstay lengths? I replaced both stays with the boat at an odd angle in the yard - just ran a temporary stay and replaced length-for-length. I didn't have a way to check mast angle set up like that.
Turbulent_War4067@reddit
I don't think in only 10-12 knots sail trim explains the behavior you describe. Especially if it happens in all points of sail. Perhaps rudder is not down, maybe rudder post/rudder is loose, something caught on keel or rudder?
Many boats can have sails trimmed to maintain course with tiller tied off 4 degrees or so to weather. This is not really self steering (unless you are blessed to be sailing a yawl, like me). But in normal conditions allow you to do something quickly, like take in fenders.
6 folks in most cockpits will be crowded. The kids should have been sitting on the cabin trunk.
Strict-Air2434@reddit
Hard rudder, check mainsail trim. Ease it out until it luffs and then trim in until the luffing disappear. Telltales on the leech of the main should be trailing. If they are sucked behind the sail, the main is over trimmed.
Stooper_Dave@reddit
Its 100% sail trim. If its trying to turn leeward, ease your jib sheet a little and see if that helps. If windward, ease the main or pull the traveler across the centerline to the windward side.
jawisi@reddit
No, OP said it’s hard to steer in both directions.
Stooper_Dave@reddit
Hmm, yeah. Your right.
tench745@reddit
I sailed a Newport 27 once or twice, motored it a couple times. My experience was that as long as your sails are trimmed correctly, the helm feels pretty good. However, when motoring the tiller is incredibly heavy and wants to wander all over.
So, my first question is, did you have the engine on, or were you just sailing when encountering issues? If just sailing, I would look for any friction in the steering system. Hold the rudder still and wiggle the tiller to see if there is excessive play anywhere in the system.
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
It seemed totally normal motoring out before raising sails - this bad behaviour was with the outboard motor lifted out of the water, so little influence there.
There IS excessive play between the tiller handle and the rudder stock. I figured I'd just deal with it but if its causing this I think I'll try to shim it out until its just tight enough to freely rotate up and down.
tench745@reddit
Interesting... The 27 I sailed had an inboard, so motoring behavior would probably be different than yours.
I suggest removing play wherever you can as long as it doesn't cause excessive friction. A worst case scenario would be that the rudder itself is breaking free from the shaft, which is part of what that wiggle check will help find.
I believe on the Newport, it's possible to turn the rudder 180 degrees, and flop the tiller forward again so it looks normal-ish at a glance. I would check that you can see the rudder extending slightly behind the transom when centered. If it is, it's facing the right direction.
chuey_74@reddit
Is it possible your mast isn't straight? I have a Neptune 24 and for a while, my mast was too far forward, so I had trouble going up wind. Any good amount of wind and it would swing me around to a broad reach when I would try to track.
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
Very possible. They had the boat on the cradle backwards over the winter while I did some rigging replacement and it was WAY off level. Need to re-check this in the water.
vanalden@reddit
Hi OP. I haven’t read all the comments but I’ve been in your situation, in a much bigger boat with very overpowered sails. Yikes! Here’s a suggestion that might help you.
Background. The foresail and mainsail need to be balanced so the boat isn’t being twisted by the wind. If it is, keeping it on course might require heavy steering input. Tightening (aka trimming) or loosening (easing) the mainsheet, which adjusts the angle of the boom and mainsail, is the quickest and easiest way to achieve balance. But which way to adjust it? This is where mnemonics come in handy.
After that scary-fast and frightening event of being over-powered, I sat down and had a good think about what was going on with the sails and the rudder. You’re doing the same right now; keep at it. I realised that the twisting was caused by either the foresail or the mainsail being under more wind pressure than the other. While this isn’t easy to see, it’s easy to feel in the rudder. My boat had helm wheels and my mnemonic works for them. It was:
‘Helm to wind, sheet me in. Helm a lee, set me free.’
In this mnemonic, ‘me’ is the mainsheet. What it means is, if I have to steer towards the wind to keep the boat on course, I need to trim the mainsheet in to achieve balance. On the other hand, if I need to steer to lee (away from the wind) to stay on course, I need to ease the mainsheet, or set it free. Small, progressive adjustments of course.
So what’s a mnemonic that works for your tiller? Um, how about:
‘Tiller hates me, main hates me. Tiller loves me, main loves me.’
This time, ‘me’ is you, holding the tiller on the uphill, windward side of the cockpit. If the tiller is trying to pull away from you, to achieve better balance you need to let the mainsheet get away from you as well. On the other hand, if the tiller is trying to come towards you, the solution is for the mainsheet to come in, towards you.
Caution - this mnemonic only works if you’re in the position as described, to windward of the tiller and probably above it if the boat is leaning.
Give it a go. Does it work for you? :-)
‘Tiller hates me, main hates me. Tiller loves me, main loves me.’ ‘Tiller hates me, main hates me. Tiller loves me, main loves me.’ ‘Tiller hates me, main hates me. Tiller loves me, main loves me.’ ....
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
LOL. Love these mnemonics! I do think a lot of the trouble was being slightly overpowered and need to work on sail balance. I had plenty to distract me with the kids on board and had the bimini up, so REALLY didn't have a good idea of what sail trim was like.
ben_on_the_water@reddit
Very firm weather helm (tiller pulling away from you) would be something you could lower by easing the main as others have mentioned. However in general, some weather helm is a good thing. The two foils (keel and rudder) work together like the jib and main to counteract the forces from the sail.
It would be helpful to know your speed. From past experience, with a boat with tons of growth on the bottom, handling gets very unpredictable. 10 to 12 kts is decent breeze, and if you’re not turning that energy into forward motion that energy is going somewhere and the waves and wakes from powerboats will knock the tiller all over the place. With 10kts of wind you should expect around 4kts on that boat, more when you get the hang of it. If you’re under 3, it’s probably growth on the bottom. You need to get moving for the boat to feel normal. Obviously if there’s a mechanical problem the rudder that could be the issue, but poorly tuned shrouds aren’t going to cause crazy steering issues.
As for where people sit, it’s ok to kick them out of the cockpit if they are comfortable moving around. You need room to steer. Once you’re moving and the boat is heeling, your crew should be sitting on the rail towards the mast to keep the boat from heeling excessively (but not too flat either!)
Don’t be discouraged! Lessons will help you understand what feels ‘right’, and you’ll learn a lot you can’t really figure out on your own - but if you know the basics you should be fine without. I’m a very experienced sailor but I still learn a bunch when someone with more experience is out with me.
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
Very little growth on the bottom. I just lifted in around mid-July.
I do have a boat speed indicator (paddle wheel thing from the 80s or 90s I think) but Its probably way off calibration. I'll just need to get a GPS app and compare. I've been using it as a relative speed indicator, not absolute (ie went from 8 to 9 knots with the last sail trim -> good change, but still don't know actual speed)
I need to get some netting up on the lifelines (there is only one at around 24" high) and then I can send all the kids forwards :) Should clear up the cockpit a little. Also the aft corners of the cockpit behind the tiller are totally open - not sure why folks didn't sit there.
irotc@reddit
Sounds like Lake Erie to me
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
Cleveland!
foilrider@reddit
On what point of sail? How were the sails trimmed? "Sawing back and forth" kinda makes no sense. If there's weather helm, the boat will want to turn into the wind, and if there's lee helm, it will want to turn away. It won't oscillate between the two. Waves will have some small effect but you should have plenty of wind to keep going through 1-2 foot waves in 10 knots of wind.
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
This was moderate during a close hauled upwind stretch, and then really severe on a downwind run - just off of dead down wind.
That's what had me confused - it was hard to change the boats direction AT ALL. If the boat was constantly turning up or down wind, then yes - sail trim would be my first suspect.
I should add that I replaced the forestay, backstay and cap shrouds not long ago and I probably don't have the rig tuned very well. There's limited data on this particular boat model (1977 Newport 27-s) but I used some of the general guidance that seemed broadly applicable to most boats. I'm also not so sure what the luff and leach tension was like.
foilrider@reddit
Is there tons of growth on the bottom? Is there something stuck on the keel or rudder? Does the boat move along at a reasonable speed?
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
Very little growth. I only lifted into the water in mid-July. Freshwater as well.
It was moving pretty well! I didn't have a GPS active at the time (no on board instruments) but judging by feel.
ajh31415@reddit
helps to know if it's lee or weather helm, normally a "safe" boat will produce weather helm when close hauled, so you will have to keep pulling the tiller in, some boats will produce excessive weather helm. This can also happen on downwind runs especially when on a broad reach if you are going fast, this is called broaching, when the boat will uncontrollably turn up into the wind. this is dangerous and it has to do with the way the water flows over the keel.
jonnohb@reddit
Is there a lot of weeds in the marina? You could have a big bunch of weeds caught on the forward edge of the rudder.
LegitMeatPuppet@reddit
I would start by testing the rudder movement at the dock when the boat is still. Make sure it feels smooth and normal and check the range of motion. Possibly something is jammed or there is marine growth need the rudders pivot point.
Another thing to consider is the exposed fin rudder on the Newport 27 could get fouled by seaweed, ropes/lines, possibly plastic trash, etc. Even a small amount of seaweed stuck to the rudder can influence how it feels and reacts when underway. Weed on the bottom of the diagonal rudder design might cause it both to feel heavy on both turns as well as load up the bearings.
Good luck!
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
I will jump in and inspect the rudder next time its out of the marina. Thanks!
jawisi@reddit
This is the most likely problem.
Correct_Emu7015@reddit
Do you have seaweed caught in the rudder?
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
I'll jump in and inspect next time I have it out. There are a lot of weeds in the lake.
mytthewstew@reddit
Or a crab trap caught feels like that
jawisi@reddit
Yeah, came here to say something is stuck between the rudder and hull. Or maybe the packing is too tight (but it’s a 27, so unlikely).
The fact that it’s hard to steer in both directions means it’s not sail trim.
derkderk6969@reddit
Sounds dumb but make sure you don't have your rudder 180deg (i.e. backwards).
When I was starting out I accidentally did that on an old Pearson and it felt like you described.
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
Agreed it sounds dumb ... but you never know! I can see the trailing edge of the rudder just behind the transom. An easy check should be just give the rudder a 360º swing and make sure it extends furthest aft when its in the "correct" position.
I searched some photos and on further inspection - it seems to be the right way around.
SherbertHerbert@reddit
Check this first - huge impact and nearly the silver bullet fix if it is the case.
ChillandSurf@reddit
This
thefriedoyster@reddit
We have a club boat at our yacht club and this happens quite often !
Simple_Journalist_46@reddit
Maybe your forestay is too lose and backstay too tight, leading to lee helm that is worse downwind. Since you dont have a tuning guide the only advice I have is to adjust the rig pretty drastically fore vs aft and go sailing under each tune.
CardinalPuff-Skipper@reddit
Is the tiller heavy when not under sail? I feel like we’re Click&Clack diagnosing a weird engine noise…
Prize-Grapefruiter@reddit
you need to have balanced sails. the front sail will try to turn the boat away from the wind and the main sail will try to turn it towards the wind , the center of the rotation being the mast. if you only had one sail up you would be fighting it like that
photodiveguy@reddit
Did you have both the main sail and the jib sail flying? On some boats if you’re flying just the main sail the tiller will be unbalanced like that.
AppropriateBunch147@reddit
Change your sail trim
Sweaty-Seat-8878@reddit
is it the same in either direction?
You might have a bearing problem.
mr_muffinhead@reddit
I'm also a fairly new sailor, but I'm pretty sure one day I was experiencing some severe weather helm or lee helm.
I had my tiller completely to one side just to stay straight. However that was only happening on the starboard tack.
Strict_Swimmer_1614@reddit
10-12 knots of breeze is too light for trim to be the problem enough for the tiller to boss you around….comments above re rubber in backwards intuitively makes sense.
jh937hfiu3hrhv9@reddit
You had a giant squid attached.
CaregiverNo1229@reddit
Perhaps you had too much sail out for the conditions. Sound like weather helm.
wd4o0o@reddit
Your rudder may not be all the way down. This typically happens when the rudder drifts up from the water passing through it. So find a way to keep it in the down position
dasreboot@reddit
Doesn't have a kick up rudder
WackyJackKerouac@reddit (OP)
Correct, "fixed" rudder (that't not the term I'm certain!) If it moves, its going to move to the bottom of the lake.
azarza@reddit
have you put on goggles, jumped in, and looked at it?
foilrider@reddit
On a 27 foot boat?
TLC007_1620@reddit
My Helms 25 has a kick up rudder
Holden_Coalfield@reddit
Sounds like you're getting some weather and or lee helm from your set if there is nothing physically wrong with your rudder.
StuwyVX220@reddit
Seems like your sail trim was too far off. 10/12kn of wind you should be trucking about between 3 and 6kn of boat speed depending on the point of sail.
Check and or grease the bearings. I can helm our boat with 1 finger if the sails are trimmed well
Candygramformrmongo@reddit
Not typical at all. You had enough wind. Agree with the rudder thought - all the way down? Properly mounted on the pintles, or if a rudderstock, check rudder post tube and bushings ?? Any chance the keel or rudder is fouled?
dasreboot@reddit
Usually a hard to turn tiller ,means that you are overpowered. Doubtful in 10 knot winds though. Was the boat heeling ? Maybe when the powerboats were knocking you over? The boat will try to turn in the direction opposite the heeling.