Will there be an epidenic of relatively sound vehicles junked because modern safety or convenience features are too expensive to repair or replace??

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whynottheobvious@reddit

I'm halfway predicting we're seeing a basic change in the numbers of haves and have nots that we haven't acknowledged yet. The day that a lot of people can't or will never be able to afford a car and can't or will never be able to afford a house. We're all poorer than we think. And we all have gotten poorer quickly. There's just enough of us that can afford 50k cars and 400 k houses to keep the illusion going that everything's the same as always.

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SXTY82@reddit

I occasionally marvel at the condition of the cars on the road. When I was a kid in the 70/80s every other car had some sort of visible damage.

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greaper007@reddit

Cars will more than likely move to a subscription service, which I'd be more than happy about. I drive about once every 10 days, but it's still cheaper to have a car than rent one. If the opposite was true, I'd love to use my parking space for more bicycle and surfboard storage.

Beyond that, cars last longer than ever. You can get a 20 year old car that still runs great for under $5k. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

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OlYeller01@reddit

That $5K great running 20 year old car is still a lot simpler and cheaper to fix than anything new though.

I could basically fix a 2005 F-150 with the proverbial bubblegum and bailing wire. I currently own a 2015 with the accursed 3.5 EcoBoost. I’m very fortunate to have a well equipped shop and a decent amount of mechanical ability.

I had to replace the turbos on my F-150 last year. I did it myself, total of about $1700 all in, and that’s including some future bulletproofing. If I had a SHOP do it though, that’s a $7K repair, not counting any extras like I added.

As these newer vehicles age, it’s just not gonna make financial sense to spend $7K repairing a vehicle worth $10K.

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greaper007@reddit

Sure, but I take that with a grain of salt. I remember 20 years ago everyone saying that he's cars are impossible to work on, and that they missed their 1985 car. Then in 1985 everyone was saying new cars sucked, had too much complicated equipment and they missed their 55 Chevy.

I'm sure in 1955 people were saying that new cars were too hard to work on and they really matter ss the simplicity of their Model T....

I dk, this is an old argument. If you want to work on your own car though, it's no harder now than in the past, in sone ways it's easier with diagnostic software. You just need different tools than before. Those are all available on piracy sites.

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OlYeller01@reddit

20 years ago cars were still designed with at least some serviceability in mind. Now the car companies don’t give a crap about that, if it saves them 5 seconds of assembly time but costs you $10K for an otherwise simple repair later, oh well.

Hence all the trucks that now require removing the cab for repairs, and all the cars that require removing the whole front clip just to change a headlight.

That’s not even taking into account the cost of replacing tablet sized infotainment systems and fully digital dashes like OP mentioned.

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greaper007@reddit

I heard these exact same complaints in the 90s. "You can't fix your car anymore, it's all computers." "There's no room to work in the engine bay."

The fact is that things basically never break on a modern car if you do your research and buy a reliable car. So the inaccessibility is kind of moot.

If you bought an American made truck instead of a Corolla...yeah, things are going to break. What did you expect?

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OlYeller01@reddit

Some of us need a truck because we work in construction. I can’t haul a pallet of paint in a Camry or Corolla now, can I?

You may have heard the complaints, but have you actually WORKED on any of them? I’ve also got an ‘01 Town Car as a backup and am restoring a ‘79 F-150. The ‘79 is of course the simplest, you can pretty much take the whole truck apart with 1/2 & 3/4 sockets and a Phillips head screwdriver.

The Town Car is only marginally more complex than the ‘79. In the past I’ve also done extensive work on ‘02, ‘07, and ‘11 Mustangs as well as an ‘03 Ranger. Same deal with them. If you can fix one car from that time period you can fix pretty much any of them.

The ‘15 is a whole other pain in the ass in terms of complexity and accessibility. And the complexity of the ‘15 ain’t got nothing on the new ones.

To top it all off, brand new cars often seem like you’re buying a beta version instead of a finished product. Recalls, TSBs, and software/firmware updates abound.

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greaper007@reddit

Really though, a truck is a horrible vehicle for construction. A van is a much better option. I live in Europe now and you basically never see a truck. Most of the trades drive Ford transit connect style vans.

In that case, I'd say the Toyota Proace would be the best option for you.

I've never had anything newer than a 2011 Sienna. It was fairly complex, but I had it for nearly 200k miles and nothing ever broke on it. So the inaccessibility didn't matter.

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OlYeller01@reddit

I’ve dealt with plenty of vans. Vans suck for loading/unloading pallets, particularly of very heavy items like drywall mud. As far as wet/stolen, that’s why I have a foldable/lockable hard bed cover.

Trucks in Europe are rare because most roads in towns are too narrow/inaccessible for them.

Even though Sierras technically haven’t changed a ton since 2011, you can’t even get a good one of those anymore. See: 5.3 & 6.2 lifter failures.

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ChopperCraig@reddit

Canada's homeless population is projected to almost quadruple in 10 years. Quite troubling..

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bornecrosseyed@reddit

it doesn't make sense to project things like that beyond a couple years. External factors and government policy can change very quickly, ten years is a long time.

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Festivefire@reddit

Its usefull insofar as if nobody acknowledges it as a growing problem, its highly unlikely anything that NEEDS to change to avoid that future will not be adressed.

Personally I think it would be a good idea to attempt addressing rises in homelessness rates LONG before your numbers have time to quadruple, therefore pointing out that this is a likley outcome if nothing changes is FAR from senseless.

"Don't talk about that potential future issue because SO MUCH can change between then and now" is a bad take, because it makes such a convienent fallback for those who would rather ignore the issue because it doesnt currently directly effect them.

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bornecrosseyed@reddit

You are correct, I acknowledged it's useful to understand current rates of change. However we are in a car guys subreddit answering a question about predicting the future, which it's not that useful for.

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Necessary-Score-4270@reddit

I believe that with projections like this, it's based on current trends and if nothing changes.

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bornecrosseyed@reddit

So it’s helpful as a way to understand current rates of homelessness increases, but not as a way to know what will happen in five or ten years.

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Necessary-Score-4270@reddit

The way i understand it is they take the current increases per year and YoY increases and just extrapolate from there.

For example say last year had a 1% increase, and this year had 1.1% increase. They'd assume the following years would be 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, etc. This assumes no YoY increases in housing production, stable wages, stable employment, etc.

No one can tell the future. This is just a "hey if we don't change something this is where we'll be." Type thing.

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Ars139@reddit

Absolutely. Wages are not keeping pace with inflation. 100k a year used to be very nice in my lifetime now it’s poverty.

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jontss@reddit

Jeez $400k houses? I wish they were that cheap. I could buy one cash. Instead I can't afford one at all in my city.

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Dave_A480@reddit

Then where you live is 'full' and you should move somewhere that has more affordable real-estate.

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jontss@reddit

The only places in my country that are less than that are places with no jobs. There are like 10 houses for sale for that price or less in my entire province.

There's a houseboat for sale near me for $450k, though.

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crohnscyclist@reddit

Between my wife and I, we could technically buy a $50k car but it's just this huge money suck that seems irresponsible

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bornecrosseyed@reddit

I dunno I think people just like making ominous predictions. Car ownership has been rising forever and homeownership is only a few percent below all time highs in Canada/US. Unless you think it's not showing in the numbers.

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Responsible-Shoe7258@reddit

None of this bullshit is sustainable...

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bjorn_egil@reddit

I think the biggest increase will be newer EVs with dead batteries as it will cost more to replace the battery than you ever will get for it even with a new battery installed

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AcesAnd08s@reddit

I think a lot of these newer cars are just designed to be cost-prohibitive to keep after 100k miles. We just traded in our 10 year old Volvo XC90 because they wanted $5k to fix a $600 part in the AC system that couldn’t be accessed without 13 hours of labor to take out the dashboard, steering wheel, center console, and glove box. Not to mention the turbo chargers were starting to go bad (another $3k), and the transmission was having calibration issues requiring a software reset and flush/fill (another $2k). When the car itself is worth less than the cost to repair it, why would anyone dump all that money into fixing it instead of trading it off and putting that money (plus the cash you would have spent to fix everything) into a brand new car? It makes me think it’s intentional.

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ChuckoRuckus@reddit

Let me guess… it was the evaporator. Those are always buried in the dash, even in 20-30 year old cars. That 13 hours likely included 1 hr of diag, plus another 1.5 hrs to evac/recharge the freon. Potentially double the evac/charge time because if the evap was leaking, they needed to vacuum test it, then charge it with dye to find the leak.

Just about the only difference between your 10 year old Volvo and my 25 year old truck is the part for mine is only about $100-150.

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Elvis1404@reddit

Depends on the car: in some of them, even if they are buried, you can "easily" access them from under the dashboard without disassembling the entire interior

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ChuckoRuckus@reddit

I deal with evap replacements all the time across all makes/models. The lowest time I’ve seen in labor guides for a “front” evap (not the rear/aux found in some SUVs) is 5+ hours, and that doesn’t include diag and/or evac/recharge time. Minimum warranty time I’ve seen is 6-7 hrs with no diag time, which ends up being 8-10 hrs door rate.

Please enlighten me what car has an “easy” evap replacement.

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MousseAgreeable8386@reddit

It’s really not relevant to the discussion of what a modern shop sees daily, but my 94 Fleetwood Cadillac has 7 5:5 mm screws and 2 more inside the evap case to remove the strap.

Take the hoses off and the whole evaporator is out maybe an hour less if you’ve done one before.

All GM B and D bodies from these years, and if I remember correctly even Tahoe’s and Silverado’s are this way as well.

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ChuckoRuckus@reddit

The GM B and D bodies were the exception…. 1.4 hrs R&R. The GMT400 is 4.6 while the GMT800 is 5.6 hrs, so they’re right in line with what I said.

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MousseAgreeable8386@reddit

Huh good stuff must have misremembered the GMT series procedure but the D/B bodies are odd in that regard

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ChopperCraig@reddit

And what did you buy next. Or did you stop buying cars?

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AcesAnd08s@reddit

Mazda CX-70. But decided to lease it. The Volvo taught me that ownership is too much of a commitment if things go south.

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ThaPoopBandit@reddit

Instapot fallacy

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Leading-Bonus7478@reddit

It is.....very intentional

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mechaernst@reddit

There may already be an epidemic of new technology related expensive problems. As others have said, we need simple vehicles. If we do not get them, there will be a surging interest in classic cars. Here is where the 90's vehicles can shine if they have been taken care of. They have just enough technology to be reliable and not enough to become crazy surprise expensive to maintain. Besides that older vehicles have more information available regarding reliability and other metrics.

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FancyyPelosi@reddit

Here we go again with “cars from the 90s were the best” even though they were filled with even cheaper electronics than you have today.

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Ars139@reddit

They were. In retrospect so simple and the easiest and cheapest of all to keep a very long time. Just enough tech to make them reliable but still simple enough to be easy to fix. 1990-2005 was the sweet spot.

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FancyyPelosi@reddit

Watch this:

Which was more reliable - this “car from the 90s” or a 1910 Ford Model T?

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Ars139@reddit

Can’t find anything to that tune but my family still has three Japanese cars from the 1996-2001 era and it would be four but my aunt sold my grandmother’s ‘98 Nissan Micra when the latter died. They are still running amazing and giving trouble free miles. Also very fun to drive as they have a lightness factor the modern cars lack. And no infotainment. Every year I get to enjoy them since back in the day when my relatives bought them they feel increasingly more special and the type of car I want to own and drive.

Within the enthusiast community that was the sweet spot. I would agree.

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FancyyPelosi@reddit

Here comes the story of the 1 Honda accord you see on the road that’s immaculate and the 999 others you don’t see in the junkyard.

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Ars139@reddit

Our experience with six cars total of that era, three still in the family, was exceptionally positive. Anecdotal I know. But still having access to the vehicles I would say they aged well and I prefer their driving dynamics to the modern one, crappy automatics and less power aside.

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FancyyPelosi@reddit

Anecdotes abound in this sort of analysis.

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Ars139@reddit

One hundred percent as with your posts that I can’t find anything about online.

But here’s one fact: the technology is proprietary and requires dealership involvement to recalibrate every time you replace something because it has more sensors and computers. The EVs are particularly bad and outrageously expensive to keep long term.

Here’s a fact: the Japanese shitboxes we owned and had in the extended family were extremely reliable and easy to keep 2-300k when age and mostly rust got em

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FancyyPelosi@reddit

Ultimately your anecdote - “they don’t make ‘em like they used to” - is as old as time. Cars today are built with better material science, tolerances, and overall engineering know how. “More complex” does not mean “less reliable” unless you think a Model T is more reliable than a Toyota Corolla (“complexity). And of course what you have are anecdotes from the Weekend Grandpa Car Enthusiast Club.

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Ars139@reddit

You just proved yourself wrong because the argument and topic wasn’t about what you discussed. It was about the electronic and digital complexity making cars too expensive to keep on the road which in fact is exactly what we are seeing.

In the past the old grandpas who drove older cars were wrong and didn’t anticipate how much more reliable fuel injection is. My dad was one of those and avoided early 80s Hondas and stuck with Toyotas be they were carbureated. He admitted to being wrong. The problem is now the computers are involved in EVERYTHING and to do anything to the car you need to go back to the dealer and basically pay your pound of flesh for the repair to work be it an alignment or even a battery change!

It doesn’t matter if the tolerances are better if the electronics around that powertrain make the car prohibitively expensive to keep on road once out of warranty. You talk about other issues and sidestep the main argument because you know you’re wrong and bring up peripheral and tangential but unrelated items.

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FancyyPelosi@reddit

Ok grandpa. Enjoy that ‘97 Accord.

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Ars139@reddit

It’s actually a 1995 Toyota Carina. I do very much thank you when have the chance to visit family abroad. As well as a ‘01 Yaris Verso.

Best thing is no screen! You can actually set the HVAC without taking your eyes off the road for a dangerous amount of time and each switch is different so you know what is fan speed, temp and direction from your peripheral vision. Priceless!!!

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greaper007@reddit

Yes, and as someone who was a teen in the 90s, all I heard was how awful 90s cars were. How you needed a computer to work on them and how all the old guys missed their 70s cars. Even though carburetors required a degree in the dark arts to adjust and needed to constantly be adjusted.

This argument has been going on forever.

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FancyyPelosi@reddit

As a 90s teen I’m with you. Take as old as time.

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LivingLikeACat33@reddit

I didn't forget the amount of time I spent beating on the dash of my '90 Accord to get the speedometer to work but apparently everyone else has.

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salvage814@reddit

There is the used side of it that you aren't taking into account. I saw it first hand 2 years when I was in the salvage industry you would see just a few infotainment radios that where available and they where stupid expensive if you had to get one. Now that those cars are on there 3rd, 4th, 5th owner and have 250k plus miles. You now see those parts be cheaper. In stead of several 100 bucks they are in most causes less the 100.

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jrileyy229@reddit

Well there's also a consideration that as technology moves on, these last Gen electronics become insanely cheap. A 70" led TV ten years ago was 3grand. Today is $300.

Inevitably someone will fill the market... When GM is using holographic augmented tech in ten years, someone will be manufacturing these old ass 1080p 20" screens for cheap.

So you buy a new f150 and you're scared about the future of your $3000 infotainment screen after the warranty expires, but by time the screen dies there's a good chance it won't be 3k anymore.

I've got a loaded 2014 and every bit of tech in it still works.

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MIDIHorse@reddit

someone will be manufacturing these old ass 1080p 20" screens for cheap.

You say that, but let me give you a real world example: The little 28" TV went out in my camper. Go find a "cheap" 27" or 28" replacement. Oh, and it has to have a built-in power supply because the space is simply too small for a power brick to fit. And it must be a TV, not a monitor.

My point is only this: Sometimes that thingy that was ubiquitous several years ago just doesn't exist anymore.

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jrileyy229@reddit

A highly specific use case, but fair.

I was more thinking the screen in a Honda Civic for example... They make a million civics a year and use the same screen over say 4 years... There's always going to be someone making or refurbing those things

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Zhuul@reddit

It is kinda funny how much of a nothing object a TV is now. I have an old-but-solid TV in my apartment that my last roommate just sorta left behind because she had no use for the thing.

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jrileyy229@reddit

Yup, I have a perfect 70" led tv sitting in my garage with no use and nobody wants it. I'm not putting it on FB because I don't want randoms coming to my house and it doesn't fit in a car to go meet someone

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Q-9000@reddit

While that make some sense, alot of automates use proprietary parts with proprietary programs. So the parts price will never go down, or you can get a 3rd party part, but you'll still loose features because the 3rd party part can't recognize or connect to the rest of the car. An example would be the buttons on the steering wheel or 360 camera no longer functioning on a new 3rd party head unit.

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jrileyy229@reddit

Sure, this is a right to repair discussion and it's going to be a big deal here in the not so distant future... When people can't repair their cars because the OEM has locked everything electronic down with proprietary encryption and the necessary tools only dealers have. This varies by country widely. In the US, John Deere was the first to do this to such a wide level that it was disgusting. They got nailed to the wall for it and gave in a few years ago allowing third parties to have access to the computerized programming tools

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1988rx7T2@reddit

yeah this is another r/cars kind of circlejerk topic. People thought having airbags in cars would total them in any crash. Sometimes that's true but the cost and procedures for repair get better over time.

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patricksb@reddit

Uh, airbags are a bad example here because airbags do a TON of interior damage. If you pop more than one, your adjuster might not even look at your car before they total it.

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S_balmore@reddit

Yeah. Airbags are a terrible example because 95% of the time, if one deploys, you car is a total loss. The only way it's not is if you drive a brand new $85,000 BMW or something, which hasn't yet depreciated, and the cost of repairs is "only" $40,000 or so. The majority of people will never be in that scenario.

(Source: I worked as an insurance adjuster for a decade).

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innkeeper_77@reddit

The problem here is the lack of standardization. Airbags are shared across models. Infotainment... Is very much not. Thats why reaching a double din radio is CHEAP and a more modern one may not be possible to update at all.

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greaper007@reddit

Nah, you'll be able to get a replacement off of AliExpress for $300 that does more than the original product did.

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1988rx7T2@reddit

You do know that most infotainment comes from suppliers right? Which is why the same tacked on screen is on every Japanese car of the mid 2010’s.

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Spartan1997@reddit

Who's gonna tell him about the proprietary head units

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1988rx7T2@reddit

You don’t understand. They’re obviously not exactly interchangeable parts, just like your FM radio on a 1993 Chevy isn’t exactly the same as what’s on your 1993 Ford. However the supply chain relies on a small group of suppliers, such as say Visteon. Due to the shared core architecture across different customers of these suppliers, you get a longer product life, and a larger supply of service parts. They can keep building the head units for as many years as they can to amortize the tooling and R&D, and then do large last time buys when their own suppliers make components go obsolete. It’s the low volume weird stuff that’s hard to source for repairs, which has always been the case.

it‘s also kind of like how NGK and Denso are huge spark plug suppliers.

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RandomUsername259@reddit

Not anymore than any other generation of vehicles. I remember when people bitched about seatbelts and airbags being needless safety equipment and just another expensive thing to replace.

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Both_Painter_9186@reddit

Yes. Imagine in 5ish years everyone who bought a car with a massive wrap around touch screen that also doubles as all the gauges is going to be making a decision as to if its worth a $7k repair bill to replace it… Especially people who don’t have garages and live in desert or cold climates. You can’t tell me these things are ruggedized to survive the life of the car in the Arizona heat or Western NY winters…

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PetriDishCocktail@reddit

Just look at the Mercedes S class as an example. $120k new and ten year old models hoover at $15k because they are so outrageously expensive to fix. My ex has one. It was nearly $6k for a new windscreen--$1400 for the glass, $3200 for the new(required) sensors and $1200 in labor to calibrate it all.

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Assasin537@reddit

To be fair, the S Class has always had insane depreciation due to the very high cost of parts and the downsides of always trying to have all of the cutting-edge features. A majority of them are sold as lease veichles for the rich and famous, which are all returned and they lease the new models.

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nayls142@reddit

Who buys them off-lease?

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Assasin537@reddit

People who want to show off and appear rich without actually having the means to live that lifestyle. Also people who are mechanically inclined and can do their own maintenance and repairs.

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Far_Satisfaction7441@reddit

Fools usually

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Mountain_Usual521@reddit

I've always maintained that one of the best ways to investigate a particular make/model is to look at the used market for that model. Some cars are going for almost the same as their factory new price. Others not so much.

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JSTootell@reddit

Wranglers hold their value. And they are junk.

But as a certified moron, I bought one anyway. Fortunately there are 3 billion of them, so lots of spare parts.

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K_Linkmaster@reddit

so lots of spare parts

A really good reason to keep a vehicle for a lifetime.

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JSTootell@reddit

That's why I will hopefully continue to own it until gasoline is banned.

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K_Linkmaster@reddit

Same, not a jeep though.

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darnok128@reddit

Why was it junk??

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JSTootell@reddit

All you have to do is look at reliability data for Stellantis vehicles. Everyone knows they are poor quality vehicles.

But there is no other product that exists that does what my Wrangler does. So, it's a trade-off.

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darnok128@reddit

lol, but…. What specifically is wrong with Wranglers? I know the rest of the Jeep line is junk, but wranglers seem to do well

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PlanetExcellent@reddit

Exactly. The best metric for the true value of any car is the price of a 10-year old one (unless factor like rarity or historical significance is important). That’s why a Lexus or a Landcruiser is always near the top of the list.

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sir_thatguy@reddit

Been shopping for a used car. 2014 civic and 2014 Land Rover are in the same price points.

The rover was 3x the price of the civic when new.

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jacks-injured-liver@reddit

But the land rover will shit the bed at 120k the Civic will drive until the second coming.

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HalfFrozenSpeedos@reddit

Land rover will shit the bed multiple times before 120k and maybe before even 1200 miles given their non existent quality control

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Equivalent-Carry-419@reddit

Land crushers have always been super durable. They’ll pass anything but a gas pump.

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Secret-Ad-7909@reddit

Look at diesel pickups. Them shits are going for more than the new price with 200k miles on them.

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nayls142@reddit

Modern diesels are a mess of emissions controls. The older simpler models are more desirable.

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jacks-injured-liver@reddit

Only if some bubba didnt chip them. A stock 12v P pump cummins hell yeah. A squatted mall crawler “rollin coal” with a chip? F no!

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Enough-Refuse-7194@reddit

eBay is another good reference - if you see a ton of sellers offering rebuilt heads you might want to reconsider

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OwnLeading848@reddit

What sort of sensors does a windscreen need?

From a 2007 corsa owner.

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timotheusd313@reddit

My Toyota Corolla has a camera in front of the mirror that does optical recognition of speed limit and other road signs like “school zone/crossing” and “no turn on red” and lane centering assist.

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IAmJacksSphincter@reddit

In my BRZ, the Eyesight system will need to be recalibrated if I need a new windshield.

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OwnLeading848@reddit

Had to check what a brz was. Apparently, new ones can't be sold in the UK due to emissions. So I read.

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IAmJacksSphincter@reddit

From what I see is because of safety regulations. It’s actually a pretty economical little car.

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HalfFrozenSpeedos@reddit

Possibly whole fleet CO2 emissions is the issue - it's whats causing so many cars to go off sale due to the fines attached for failing to meet the targets - so instead we are left with a pile of EV sedans and SUVs and a small smattering of ev wagons...

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Snicklefraust@reddit

$4 for premium near me, but my GR86 only drinks the best.

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IAmJacksSphincter@reddit

A hair over $6 per gallon for premium for me (Canadian dollars) so I feel ya.

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Secret-Ad-7909@reddit

It’s about $3.50 in my area, but I’m feeding a v8 Camaro so it doesn’t help much.

I’ll never forgive circle k for buying out the regional gas station chain that offered premium for mid grade price on mondays.

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timotheusd313@reddit

Used car market in the US has been a bit wonky since the cash-for-clunkers scheme required running engines to be destroyed.

My ‘11 Chrysler 200 got wrecked (70,000 miles, collision) and I was offered $8,400 by insurance.

Used cars were either $15-20k for older low mileage, or 100,000+ miles for between $4-11k

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04limited@reddit

As they say the car depreciates but the repair costs don’t

S classes are cars for the wealthy. If one is worried about depreciation and repair costs of a S class then they can’t afford it in the first place - if it’s $15k

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40thAE@reddit

Mercedes have always been expensive to fix. Not necessarily expensive to own, The SL has always been a very robust little car, and the G-Wagen resale maintains value with inflation though.

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billdizzle@reddit

If only it was so easy….. Ferraris are very costly to maintain and fix yet retail value still

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OkCar7264@reddit

That's a terrible example, that's always how it's been. You aren't supposed to buy those things, you lease them.

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AT-ST@reddit

I fucking hate the giant touch screen in my new Ranger. I just want buttons and knobs that I can reach out to use without taking my eyes off the road.

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timotheusd313@reddit

Underrated comment right here. I’ll probably always miss my Chrysler 200. Three knobs with hard stops for climate control. Gated (I called it zig-stick automatic) transmission, and dual stalks on the steering column, included headlights and dashboard illumination.

Physical knobs for climate control were an absolute must for the replacement. Ended up making a decision between a used Subaru with climate control like the 200, (almost exactly, except fan and output location were reversed relative to the 200) and the Toyota Corolla I ended up getting. (Two rotary encoders and a button to cycle through output locations. Having a physical ignition key pushed the Corolla over the top for me.)

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AT-ST@reddit

I actually like the push button ignition on my Ranger. It is nice being able to get in and go without taking my keys out of my pocket.

Ford got so close to getting the right amount of balance between physical buttons and touchscreen. They have physical controls for temperature, volume, and fan speed. There is a button for Max AC and Max defrost.

However, they moved a lot of controls to the touchscreen that I would prefer to have a physical buttons for. Things like climate control vent control, rear defroster, play/pause button, heated seat control and heated steering wheel are all only controlled via touch screen. All of those should be physical buttons, knobs or switches.

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series_hybrid@reddit

It's one thing if a fried control touch-screen prevents you from using the radio or back-up camera (you can still get to work), but if the A/C or windsheild defroster doesn't work, you have to pony up thousands of dollars.

Once you are in a position to buy another new car, why would you buy the brand that screwed you hard?

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Both_Painter_9186@reddit

What Im saying is, is there will be a lot of waste. The problem is a lot of cars now have almost EVERYTHING run through the touch screen. Even the speedometer, tachometer, and odometer are tied to it.

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teachthisdognewtrick@reddit

That’s my problem. 03 Acura MDX fully loaded including navigation. EVERYTHING runs thru the damn touchscreen. DVD rom drive died, can’t replace the drive, either spend hundreds on a no guarantee rebuild or $6k plus to replace. No AC, fan speed controls etc. At least there is a master defrost button or the car would have been scrapped years ago.

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timotheusd313@reddit

Oof. My mom’s 300 is similar. There’s a knob for fan speed, and buttons for temp, but other than AC button setting blower to the dash, and defrost button, you have to use the touchscreen to send heat to the floor.

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raetwo@reddit

it's an 03. just go to a junkyard and pull it. write down the vin number from the donor car so you can look up lockout codes

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teachthisdognewtrick@reddit

Sadly 23 years of road salt have caught up with it. Not worth throwing any more $ at it.

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LivingLikeACat33@reddit

So you're saying that your rusted out 00s model isn't worth putting minor repairs into, not that the electronics are totaling the car. Those are different problems.

I fixed the LCD speedometer on my niece's car with a capacitor and a borrowed soldering kit a few weeks ago. Electronics are still just parts you can learn to repair and replace.

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teachthisdognewtrick@reddit

It’s just the icing on the cake. Not much available at local scrap yards. I pulled the unit and was just going to replace the drive, but the part is discontinued. This was 3 years ago. Now the rust is starting to be an issue, timing belt is coming due, etc. Absolutely not reason to throw another couple thousand at it. I did the brakes, tires, suspension over the last few years (pleasantly surprised by how easily most of it came apart despite the salt).

Point being though any electronics I replace will be the same age as the original. No guarantee of any reasonable amount of life. Electrolytic capacitors dry out. Firmware updates are non existent. This is the future for almost every modern car. Even Ferrari, a brand with very deep pocketed owners, many computers are becoming unobtanium. My next vehicle will not have any of that junk in it. Something that I can fix and maintain without critical systems running through unnecessary hardware that will become obsolete/irreplaceable.

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LivingLikeACat33@reddit

I agree it's a stupid design, but I did a quick Google and it looks like people are refurbishing them and they want the cores so it's fixable. I also found someone just resoldering a few things on the circuit board to fix theirs.

Electrolytic capacitors are very replaceable. I learned how to do it in a day to save $250. Cutting them off with flush cutters makes it very easy to avoid damaging the board if you're incompetent, which I am.

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raetwo@reddit

you're acting like it's more than 100 bucks to solve your issue here and it's not

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reefmespla@reddit

Already did it on a 2014 Mercedes E350 a year ago. Mercedes unit which had backup cam, radio, and other functions was 7k before labor and Mercedes could not guarantee it would work. Carvana gave me a great trade in, the car only had 32,000 miles, it was a museum piece except for that one part.

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NightKnown405@reddit

Most of the domestic versions of those are repairable at very competitive prices. I have done a few where the cost to the customer was under $250 for the screen.

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wrenches42@reddit

I live in Phoenix. The sun absolutely destroys any type of screen.

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EjaculatedTobasco@reddit

That's actually how the finance guy managed to sell me a (heavily discounted) extended warranty on my 2024 lol. Well played by him.

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Hey-buuuddy@reddit

Yes absolutely. See a YouTube channel “Auto Parts City” and he will give you a pulse on why cars end up junked.

The usual is Hyundai and Kia’s externally fine, but blown transmission or engine. 20-30 year old Hondas and Toyotas still running fine, but rotted.

You’ll see more cars junked when the cost to replace a windshield-embedded sensor exceeds the value of the car. So sad, America needs cheap reliable simple cars more than ever and we’re getting the opposite from manufacturers.

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Dave_A480@reddit

You can't make a 'simpler' car legally....
Also most of the technology actually makes them easier to work on, compared to the awful-ness of the pre-computerization era (were in this 15 feet of vacuum hose is the pinhole leak? If you don't find it, the car will never run right)....

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Hey-buuuddy@reddit

Laws are the problem then.

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WeedsNBugsNSunshine@reddit

Nah, it's the airbags that do it in my experience.

Any accident involving any of my family or business vehicles in the past 20 or so years has been a write-off if an airbag popped. Accidents where the vehicle was hit from behind were all repaired. Hit in the front without airbag deployment? Repaired. Vehicle with one or more airbags deployed, drivable or not? Insurance totalled them.

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travelinzac@reddit

The cost of labor alone has resulted in a significant increase of fixable vehicles being totaled out. RIP first gen highlander, we miss you. $3k in parts, $8k in labor. We took the check.

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LiveFreeOrRTard@reddit

It'll happen. It just won't be an "epidemic".

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Capt_Irk@reddit

The junkyards are already filling up with “mechanically totaled” cars that look like new, but have issues that cost more to fix than the car is worth.

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HeavyDutyForks@reddit

In a way, yes. Between the increasing complexity of these things and the tech shortage, you're going to see a lot of otherwise fine vehicles getting written off

But I would imagine any of them worth saving would be scooped up by DIYers to be fixed up to be driven or resold.

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6786_007@reddit

A lot of cars now require specialized software to program them. I watched a Car Wizard video with the Chevy Malibu and he had to program the brake switch lol. So stupid.

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TPSreportmkay@reddit

Unfortunately the most likely path for these cars is to go across the auction block where you have to be a dealer to bid. So the less desirable ones are definitely going to the junkyard.

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HalfFrozenSpeedos@reddit

Not hard to set up a business in most places, at worst it's paperwork, file for a permit and maybe speak to an officer/ licencing committee and that's IF the auction bothers to do any due diligence beyond "do you have a business card?"

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steelartd@reddit

LKQ makes good money off those cars.

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Necessary-Score-4270@reddit

A lot of cars now require 10s of thousands in diagnostic and calibration equipment. But there are hacks and work around for some models

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Substantial_Team6751@reddit

No epidemic. Someone will drive it if it still drives. Someone will repair it if it's worth it.

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ChuckoRuckus@reddit

The problem is that the infotainment systems are so intertwined, that it can make other things completely unusable. There’s some cars that when the infotainment system fails, the gauge cluster goes black too. So not only is the radio/HVAC not working, you can see any of the vital info for making the car go.

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Muad_Dib_of_Arrakis@reddit

Dont need HVAC or a radio to get from point a to point b.

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Geauxlsu1860@reddit

Yes, but you do kind of need an instrument cluster.

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Substantial_Team6751@reddit

Like I said, people will repair it if it's worth it.

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PlanetExcellent@reddit

Interesting thought, but that hasn’t been the case with airbags or antilock brakes and those technologies have been around a long time now. Those cars aren’t being junked, and are easily insured.

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ChuckoRuckus@reddit

ABS components and airbags aren’t nearly as proprietary as infotainment systems, and they are typically more durable since they’re rarely touched. Infotainment systems have a lot more “delicate” parts and get touched all the time.

I deal with car warranties. I see infotainment systems all the time that need replaced. I’ve seen an ABS module once in the past year, and have seen a single airbag.

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StarsandMaple@reddit

Replicating or intercepting non OE items has gotten increasingly easier and better due to crazy knowledge access, easy PCB iteration, and better understanding of software.

Aftermarket infotainment systems that can plug and play have gotten better, we’ll get some regression as car manufacturers have pushed a bit harder into ‘higher’ tech items but not much of an issue.

Plenty of people I know use can bus translators to make a lot of weird shit work in more modern cars. Such as engine swaps with standalone ECUs but still integrating the systems with the factory cluster and any other items.

We solder custom boards in ZF8 mechatronics unit to use a standalone controller and it runs and drives like a factory transmission behind whatever adapter plate and motor you use.

The DIYer stuff is getting crazy better and affordable where broke proprietary electronics will be a moot point… I mean I’ve already 3D printers NLA parts for old VWs

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greaper007@reddit

Exactly this, it's like everyone on this thread didn't put a new radio in their car in the 90s. You can still do that, even with new cars.

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StarsandMaple@reddit

Yeah it’s just a bit more expensive, my dad did it on his Sentra, not fancy but it was newer and had a bunch of proprietary stuff.

We did it to a buddies E92 BMW, and it still retains all the OE controls and everything. These are all sub 1000$ setups.

Friend is working on one for his Cadillac CT5-V because it broke again, but he’s electronics engineer so it’s his version of adding a bigger turbo lol

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S_balmore@reddit

This has been happening for decades. None of this is new. This is why you can buy a 2001 Range Rover for $6k any day of the week. Fancy cars come with fancy problems, and very few people are willing to buy a used car with fancy problems.

The good news is that there are still plenty of "simple" cars. No, not everything has a panoramic sunroof and self-driving capabilities. The majority of cars have always been, and will always be, Corollas/Civics/insert-boring-car-here. Yeah, the infotainment systems are fancier, but all of the other systems are relatively unchanged from what they had 20 years ago. Even my 2004 Toyota has a sunroof and folding mirrors. It's actually very simple technology. New cars do have high-tech features like blind-spot detection and lane-assist, but those features typically are not necessary for the functioning of the car. If those high-tech things break, the car just becomes a 'normal' car. It won't end up in a junk yard because 'normal' cars will always be useful to somebody.

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TWrecksActual@reddit

Yes. Planned Obsolescence imo…

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nosoup4ncsu@reddit

I occasionally work inside of auto auction facilities that sell "totaled " vehicles (Copart, etc).

The number of cars with visually minor damage, that are perfectly drivable, but are totaled, is crazy.

Replacing a hood, fender, grill, and bumper (along with all of the sensors) will total lots of cars.

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growerdan@reddit

Just because buying new parts is expensive doesn’t mean it’s expensive to take two junk cars and make one good car. I think you’ll see a lot higher quality R title cars due to them getting junked by insurance over minor damage with expensive sensors. I don’t know the ins and outs of R titles and insurance repairs but I feel like an insurance company isn’t going to put junkyard parts on someone’s car after an accident but a small used car dealer isn’t going to ask where the parts came from when they have a local shop repair a totaled car for them.

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cjandstuff@reddit

I don’t think they’ll be junked due to electronics not working. There will be enough still functioning parts going around to keep them on the road for years. What I do expect however is older cars no longer being supported by the manufacturer and having features remotely disabled, forcing a lot of people to upgrade.

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Enigma_xplorer@reddit

Absolutely and it's already happening.

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graytotoro@reddit

For stuff broken in crashes, yes. That's already happening.

For comfort features, no. Look at how many cars are being sold on FB Marketplace or CL with non-functioning A/C and broken radios. People will always be hungry for beaters.

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jacks-injured-liver@reddit

It already happened. Remember Cash for Clunkers. When every car is worth 4 grand all the affordable used cars got scrapped and we lost the brick and bull nose fords square body chevy’s and other desirable no electronics chassis.

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specialist_26@reddit

Yep

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mtommygunz@reddit

I’m just waiting on all the batteries on electric cars to start crapping out. They know their charge cycles and it’s not that great. And it costs tons to replace them outside of “warranty”. That’s why all the fancy electric vehicles cost so much up front. You’re the guinea pig being tested. I’m going to thoroughly enjoy the walk back on the new scout electric when they come out with a hybrid and then a gas engine.

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Rapom613@reddit

Oh absolutely. I see it all the time (work st a dealer) $5k nav screen, $3k air strut (have to replace in pairs) 30k hybrid battery, 70k EV battery

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Aloha-Eh@reddit

Yes.

I test drove a Ford F-150 Platinum a few years ago. Sweet ride. Horrifically fast "auto parking mode." Seriously. What were they thinking. Unless that's for city driving so you can hurry up and park before someone bogarts your parking space!

I told my wife I wouldn't buy it. She asked why. Because it's so damn complicated with so many bells and whistles I absolutely don't trust those systems to degrade, and start fucking the hell up and becoming a nightmare. I tend to hold onto my vehicles a while, so longetivity is important, to me.

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Electronic-Ad-3825@reddit

Most likely we're just going to see more mechanics and tuning shops offering services to bypass proprietary systems and sensors that no longer work or just rip them out completely. Most of these systems aren't actually required for operation and even a lot of the "required" ones can be disabled legally as soon as the car rolls off the lot.

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Yanni__@reddit

people in 20 years will drive cars with tons of warning lights for broken forward collision system, blind spot monitoring, adaptive headlights, broken infotainment screens. All these systems will be non-functional but the car will still run and drive so they will be fine.

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NeverDidLearn@reddit

Yes. Seriously, lots of perfect sheet metal in the junkyard because of complex electrical system malfunctions.

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HDauthentic@reddit

This already happens. Wanna know how much it costs to replace the full entertainment system in a 2010 Toyota Sienna with new OEM parts? Like $15,000 lmao

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Radiant-Shine-8575@reddit

Yes 100%

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IllGap1986@reddit

I also wonder about the batteries in hybrid and ev’s in 10-15 years when they start going bad and people can’t afford to replace them.

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Spud8000@reddit

electronic CPUs are obsolete and unavailable for repairs.

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Responsible-Shoe7258@reddit

The 7000 dollar touchscreen replacement on a ten year old car isn't the issue. Wait until you find out that essential replacement is not available because its already been obsoleted out of the supply chain.

Y'all buying this crap are going to learn the hard way that this car market is not sustainable.

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LivingLikeACat33@reddit

I replaced the MFD because of a cosmetic burn on the touchscreen in my niece's 2008 Prius before we gave it to her last year. Last month I soldered a new capacitor on her combo meter to fix her speedometer.

Touchscreens aren't new in cars. Digital displays aren't new either. If it was manufactured in the first place someone can figure out how to fix it.

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Dadofpsycho@reddit

It won’t even be the really high tech things that total out the car. Imagine you have something like a higher level GM or Ford with LED projector headlights. You, the fourth owner of a twelve year old car have a little fender bender that wrecks the headlight. No new ones are available. No aftermarket either because your car wasn’t popular. There might be some person somewhere who repairs them but at great expense and you couldn’t find them anyway. Your insurance can’t find one either so the car is written off. Can’t drive without headlights.

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Fluid-Tip-5964@reddit

Junk yards and You-tube to the rescue. Lots of computer geeks are going to discover that tearing into an infotainment system is much less scary than tearing into an engine.

Case in point, I replaced the dead ACM (fancy-ass radio) in the wife's 2016 Ford Escape for a $110 and a couple of beers worth of time. The cost at the dealer would have been closer to $1000. If it dies again, I'll replace again.

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AwarenessGreat282@reddit

lol....why? Like those how those crazy TPMS sensors bankrupted us? Or go farther back and how we scrapped cars instead of fixing the power windows? That shit isn't really all that expensive. The headlights are worst then all those screens and safety sensors.

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ComeForARideYo@reddit

Absolutely. New civics have structural components that can’t be repaired or replaced if damaged. The car is scrapped.

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Complete-One-5520@reddit

Only if safety is a concern.

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JONOV@reddit

lol nope.
If it’s a sound running vehicle it’s worth thousands, they’ll trade it in, the dealer will fix or auction, or they’ll sell it on CL/FB marketplace. Touchscreens have been around for over a decade, maybe two. Sunroofs have been around forever, they’ve always been a failure prone point relatively, the fix is someone shoots silicone up there and leaves it shut.

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04limited@reddit

Just about every 2000s German car ends up being junked because they become mechanically totaled. Unless it’s a model that’s sought after or one that was babied since new.

How it starts is say the pano sunroof starts leaking. 3rd owner who paid $15k for it isn’t going to drop $5k to fix it. Let’s water leak and sit. Electronics get toasted. No money to fix electronics. Car goes to the yard.

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Eagle_Fang135@reddit

Already happening. If a brand new car gets into an accident with some body damage but sets off all the airbags, it is toast. The side air bags tear the seats apart. So add in the cost of all those repairs, new air bags, etc. Also a good amount of finished value (lose value due to documented accident). Compare that to the high salvage value of all the remaining parts. Insurance company totals it out.

Keep in mind modern cars also have a lot of crumple zones. So a minor fender bender damages all those things and they are use once and toss. That is in addition to the air bags.

We now walk away from the car. And never see it again. In the old days the cares had little damage, it was the people inside that took the hit. That is why people didn’t want seat belts as it used to be a better chance of survival to be thrown from the car.

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LrckLacroix@reddit

Yes absolutely. I can think of a few brands that have so many features and computers in them, even a minor collision or leaving the window open by accident during a rain storm could possibly write the car off.

You can buy the car for ~$50k-$60k but if you were to price the control units individually, plus labour to replace them you would be well over $150k.

But at the end of the day just like any other branded consumer technology, cars are produced by manufacturers to be sold. Its not actually beneficial whatsoever for them to last past the warranty. Planned obsolescence is very real.

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Remote_Clue_4272@reddit

Seems that way already

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Protholl@reddit

Probably. Do any of you know how many metric tons of e-scrap is being created by the introduction of Windows 11? It's the same thing. Planned obsolescence is being steamrolled across us like its an arcade game.

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do-not-freeze@reddit

Do any of you know how many metric tons of e-scrap is being created by the introduction of Windows 11?

Probably not as much as you think. Win11 generally works with hardware made after 2017, well beyond typical replacement cycles, and there's nothing stopping you from continuing to use Win10 if that's what you prefer.

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Leading-Bonus7478@reddit

And yet those very companies are screaming that we're harming the planet...very judgemental but look how hypocritical they are....

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aarraahhaarr@reddit

It's already happened. Cash for clunkers took almost all the cars and trucks off the road for "being old".

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billdizzle@reddit

Maybe? Or maybe the replacement parts and processes to repair become cheaper because of economies of scale

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steelartd@reddit

They won’t be junked. They will be driven by what used to be the middle class after being bought at a discount. You can see it now, expensive cars with fixes from r/askashittymechanic.

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alexlikespizza@reddit

Man junkyards in the next 10-15 years are going to be crazy

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billy310@reddit

Ship them to countries where they appreciate them and hack the software to work it out

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PrimaryThis9900@reddit

Look at the value of luxury vehicles, unless they are some kind of limited edition (or a Lexus) their value tanks once they are out of their warranty because it costs too much to fix the minor things on them. My wife has a Ford Expedition and the sunroof stopped working, was quoted almost $4k to fix it. The pretty little LED strip went out on one of the headlights, $1.5k for an entire new headlight because it can't be repaired.

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illigal@reddit

Already happening. Electronic parts on many 10+ year old cars are starting to become NLA and you have to go to the used market. And if the car is lower production, body panels and things like headlights/taillights become unobtainium forcing insurance to total the cars out rather than fix.

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Low-Carob9772@reddit

Already happening. Ford Hyundai Kia Dodge and Chevrolet are currently producing vehicles that by the time you hit 100k miles if you are not emotionally attached to the vehicle there's no sense in keeping it. Unless money isn't an issue in your life and no expense is too much.

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KnoWanUKnow2@reddit

Even in the current day and age an airbag malfunction/deployment can lead to writing off a car.

It's not too bad if you DIY, but airbags aren't an easy thing to DIY.

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TPSreportmkay@reddit

Airbags are super easy.

Junkyards sell them and you just need to swap out the ones that deployed, find the sensor(s) that are damaged, and possibly swap out the computer.

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Original_Bicycle5696@reddit

Don't forget about all the interior panels the bags blew out. Then the exterior panels still need fixed. Hopefully nothing shifted either.

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TPSreportmkay@reddit

Frame damage is a whole other can of worms.

Just replacing a steering wheel airbag and a side curtain one with the associated trim is not a huge deal.

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Competitive-Reach287@reddit

We had a Charger in the shop with two blown airbags. Repair procedure involves replacing the dash, steering column, a bunch of sensors, and the seatbelts. Kinda a huge deal. The actual body damage was the cheapest part of the repair.

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TPSreportmkay@reddit

Having a shop so it is definitely going to be ridiculous. Having done it myself twice once due to me setting them off and another time buying a car like that I don't think it's that big of a deal. If the passenger dash didn't explode that is.

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Original_Bicycle5696@reddit

True, but there are way more airbags than that in a car. Front passenger is usually a treat, same with curtain airbags up in the headliner. Don't forget about the seat airbags either. Lots of yards crush the car with seats and trim still inside. This can make sourcing parts difficult.

Had a hyundai I needed to call 4 different yards to get a seat that was ABLE to be cleaned. Even they had to order it from a sister yard.

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Dedward5@reddit

Counterpoint is the industry is adapting, the idea that a mechanic is just about nuts and bolts is long gone. Specialist repair places are emerging for various systems/ parts etc. The shop that evolved from the village blacksmith now needs to deal with what “The IT guy” is more comfortable with.

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Optimassacre@reddit

It has already been happening. If airbags deploy, it could cost upwards of $10k to replace them all. That's not including the other body damage.

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jrileyy229@reddit

Well there's also a consideration that as technology moves on, these last Gen electronics become insanely cheap. A 70" led TV ten years ago was 3grand. Today is $300.

Inevitably someone will fill the market... When GM is using holographic augmented tech in ten years, someone will be manufacturing these old ass 1080p 20" screens for cheap.

So you buy a new f150 and you're scared about the future of your $3000 infotainment screen after the warranty expires, but by time the screen dies there's a good chance it won't be 3k anymore.

I've got a loaded 2014 and every bit of tech in it still works. Ultimately it's probably going to end up being a right to repair legal battle.

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