Catabolic Collapse: Why Civilizations Eat Themselves (And How To Read The Signs)
Posted by timothy-ventura@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 63 comments
Civilizations don't explode, they erode—in a stairstep descent into chaos. John Michael Greer calls this process "catabolic collapse", and it's happening today.
We tend to picture collapse like a Hollywood jump cut: one day a humming empire, the next day goats in the forum. John Michael Greer’s model of “catabolic collapse” argues for something subtler—and eerily familiar. Civilizations don’t usually explode; they erode. They wear themselves down in economic steps: crisis, partial recovery, crisis, partial recovery—each step lower than the last. “We’re looking at decline,” Greer says, “a process that unfolds over decades and in many cases, centuries.”
At the center of his theory is a deceptively simple budget problem: maintaining the stuff you already have—roads, bridges, buildings, data centers, skilled workers, knowledge networks—costs real resources. When the total maintenance bill exceeds what a society can reliably produce, something has to give. Capital gets abandoned, stripped for parts, or left to rust. That forced “conversion of capital into waste,” Greer says, is the signature move of catabolic decline....
Glittering_Film_6833@reddit
On a side note, it's been disappointing to see Greer go down the Trump rabbithole. Like Kunstler, he's got a huge blind spot for present day fascism. It's baffling.
VTBaaaahb@reddit
I used to follow both of them pretty regularly. Now they're just grifters pandering to right wing morons.
chotasahib@reddit
Same, same. I really admired their work—JHK from the late ‘90s; Greer I think more like the mid-‘00s. Done with both of them for ages now. JHK’s decline was painful to witness in real time, ~15 years ago and forward.
VTBaaaahb@reddit
After years of warning against a "corn-pone Hitler", JHK's unwavering support of ol' Yam Tits was a breathtaking display of hypocrisy, a giant "mask-off" moment, and/or evidence of a complete inability to engage in self-reflection. I completely lost respect for him.
I think Greer is simply convinced of his own superiority and needs to lay off getting high off his own supply.
Glittering_Film_6833@reddit
I think COVID - the phenomenon and govt responses, not the illness itself - fried a few synapses for them both. Greer is celebrating what Trump is doing, and seems to be falling on the '4D chess' side of things.
Shoots_Ainokea@reddit
JHK is Jewish and doctrinaire about that. To many, Trump is considered to be "good for the Jews/Israel" so there you have it.
Shoots_Ainokea@reddit
Even in JHK's first book on collapse, The Long Emergency, he was very rah-rah Go Team about the US fighting in the Middle East.
thequestison@reddit
So very true. It's the same as a house, it demands upkeep all the time. The roads and such, I see it constantly where I live. The mountains move, and the road goes with it. Along the Caribbean coast, the salt eats everything. There is no end to upkeep, for if the upkeep stops, the jungle or the mountains take over.
Conscious_Yard_8429@reddit
Everything is transient, life is ephemeral. Humans trying to impose their will is pure hubris and will inevitably lead to catastrophy.
NorthMathematician32@reddit
You can look at the US' predicament as one of the oldest stories there is. They are heavily in debt due to fighting foreign wars. This always leads to the people feeling shortchanged and eventually revolution.
Conscious_Yard_8429@reddit
They are heavily in debt due to fighting foreign wars.
This, to say the least, is a bit of a shortcut. The way you say fighting foreign wars makes it sound as if the US has been fighting on behalf of other nations which they have not really done since they came to the aid of Europe in WWII. Most of the other foreign interventions were economic or colonial type wars or for revenge as in the post 9/11 "war on terrorism".
Defence budgets have increased typically to keep the US's position of top dog in the international scene and to keep trade routes open so that the US can export and other countries can import American goods or produce American goods cheaply in low-cost countries as well as to keep the oil tankers moving in the period before American oil "independence".
The debt comes partly from high defence spending, admittedly, but mainly from the American penchant of not wanting to pay taxes and refusing to appropriately tax the wealthy and businesses to cover internal spending (social security, infrastructure, etc) It also comes from the fact that the dollar is the international reserve currency and allows the US to profit from selling its debt to the world fairly cheaply.
Tax the rich, participate in the international demand to tax international companies and avoid tax havens and don't blame "foreigners" and "foreign wars" for American politicians' connivance with business in suppressing ordinary people everywhere.
whofusesthemusic@reddit
HEY NOW! those foreign wars made a hand full of people extremely wealthy, and a few more handfulls very wealthy...
oh wait, same as it ever was.
collapse-ModTeam@reddit
Rule 14: AI-generated content may not be posted to /r/collapse. No self-posts, no comments, no links to articles or blogs or anything else generated by AI or AI influencers/personas. No AI-generated images or videos or other media. No "here's what AI told me about [subject]", "I asked [AI] about [subject]" or the like. This includes content substantively authored by AI.
TheArcticFox444@reddit
Same old story. Same lessons. Over and over. Yet, we never learn.
If humanity is so damned smart, then why can't we figure out what makes us so tragicly stupid?
earthkincollective@reddit
It's only modern culture that is so pathetically stupid. Humans lived for nearly half a million years without falling to that stupidity. Our ancestors knew better, up until the era of "civilization".
TheArcticFox444@reddit
Actually, there appears to be a transition that happened 30,000--40,000 ya. A remarkable advance in tool technology and other cultural changes happened back then.
Civilization might have launched back then if the weather had been more conducive to agriculture but the ice age had to loosen its grip for that to happen.
Locke03@reddit
We know what makes us stupid. The problem is escaping it before we kill ourselves. To quote E.O. Wilson:
In other words, the human is not actually a rational being. Not for the most part anyway. We are largely the same reactionary, impulsive, instinct-driven animals that our ancestors were a few million years ago, albeit one that has become uniquely clever in its use of tools and communications methods. For most of the history of genetically modern humans we existed as small bands of hunter-gatherers concerned only with immediate survival and reproduction, no different from so many other primates. Then through whatever mechanism you want to attribute it to, we stumbled across a few hacks that let us develop technologically and socially at rates that far outstrip the ability for natural evolutionary processes to adapt to and this development increased over the last few thousand years at an exponential rate, much of it taking place in the last 200 years or so. We assume that rationality is something innate to us and not something we must consciously do and this makes us far closer to monkeys with our fingers on the trigger of a nuclear weapon than anyone is really comfortable admitting.
earthkincollective@reddit
Our ancestors who lived in small bands were NOT
It's only modern humans that have a culture completely bankrupt of wisdom and myopically focused on short term gains at the expense of all future generations.
TheArcticFox444@reddit
You got a lot right. But, you missed the real problem. Can't solve a problem if you don't know what it is.
Reasonable_Swan9983@reddit
14.\ AI-generated content is banned.
Anyone, or do I smell AI generated content (even the pic in the article)? : — )
willisjs@reddit
100%. Another red flag is that this guy is posting multiple "articles" every day.
CannyGardener@reddit
All the em-dashes are triggering me!
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
If you want to read the original work by archaeologist and historian Joseph Tainter that Greer is summarizing, it's called The Collapse of Complex Societies. You can find a free version online. It's long and full of data but the opening and closing chapters are readable and paint a big picture.
thecrookedway@reddit
216 pages is long now?
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
The version I have is 250 page of very dense academic prose where he cites every one and their brother and uses immense detail. That's why it's good, but it was slow reading for me.
Psychological_Fun172@reddit
There are some fantastic interviews of Tainter on YouTube. A number of Podcasters have talked to him.
Also, Nate Hagens is one of the best Podcasters in this field. He has interviewed pretty much every author on the topic
justalinuxnoob@reddit
Nate is magnificent and I can't recommend his podcast enough. I've learned a borderline disgusting amount of things from him and his guests, and anytime there's an episode I think will be uninteresting, I end up learning something new. It's been so eye opening seeing how many phenomenons don't arise because of singular pressure points, but rather due to connections between siloed sectors of modernity.
To anyone reading this: if you're interested in systems-level synthesis of sectors such as earth science, climate change, ecology, finance, economics, psychology, and culture, then go watch The Great Simplification. It's literally in the recommended podcasts section on the sidebar of this subreddit, and it's clear from a lot of the casual comments I see on this subreddit that not enough people are seeking out quality information like what's on that podcast.
henrysmyagent@reddit
Like the world-class bridges and roads in the USA...but only by 1930's standards?
Like how the US invented and built the internet but has the slowest internet speeds?
The US has the best new bomber, the B-21, that money can buy, but the highest infant morality rate of any industrial nation.
You mean erosion and catabolism like that?
wostestwillis@reddit
Wait til you find out how obsolete those bombers are in a real war.
AbstractWarrior23@reddit
is this bc of drones?
wostestwillis@reddit
Yeah, and hypersonics. US is still developing those. Russia, Iran, China all have them. Plus Oreshnik, that one is really scary.
BigRedRobotNinja@reddit
Trust and believe that actual US weapons technology is far more advanced than anything the Russians and Chinese can even dream up. Take a look at the MiG-25 vs F-15 saga. Russia bombastically overstated their capabilities, and then the US military-industrial complex actually produced something that's even better than the Russian fairytale. Some parts of the US myth are starting to crumble, but the ability of the US military to rapidly and decisively fuck shit up is not one of them.
wostestwillis@reddit
Ah yes, secret tech that no one can even imagine. Meanwhile we have real world battlefields that the US is losing in and doesn't supply that tech to? Israel must be pissed that their iron dome doesn't have the latest upgrades
BigRedRobotNinja@reddit
Which battlefields in particular? Russia has been stonewalled for the past 3 years in Ukraine, and they're just dealing with US hand-me-downs that are 20 years out of date. HIMARS is old enough to vote, and Ukraine wrecked shit with just a couple dozen of them. And Israel's export-restricted F-35s absolutely dogwalked the entire Iranian AA system. Do you really think that those are still the bleeding edge of American capability? I'm not trying to get into a pissing match here, but people really need to realize that the US isn't just on a different playing field, they're playing an entirely different game. If the entire rest of the world decided to gang up on the US tomorrow, I'm not sure which side I would place my bets on. And that's honestly scary as hell, given who's at the wheel right now.
wostestwillis@reddit
I believe your assessment of both conflicts is wrong. Ukraine is very much losing with all the tech that NATO can muster. Russia does not want most of Ukraine territory, they want to destroy it's military capacity, that's why they are slow. Israel does have excellent intelligence and spycraft but their "pearl harbor" sneak attack/decapitation strike is all they had then after they saw Iran's hypersonics/drones they practically begged for a ceasefire.
_netflixandshill@reddit
Scary, but not invincible. Plenty of Kinzhal intercepts over Ukraine.
JizzyJazzDude@reddit
Even aircraft carriers are obsolete now aside from picking on underdeveloped nations. We're always preparing to fight the previous war and not the one that's coming.
screech_owl_kachina@reddit
I’d bet that in the 21st century the US military and its allies have intentionally killed more civilians than any sort of combatant.
And by the end of the century, their highest body count by far will be comprised of American civilians.
wussell_88@reddit
Why?
grahamulax@reddit
Oh ya they are! My dad helped make them in private at Boeing! He also got offered a dark gov job but wanted to finish this project. I think there’s newer ones out there but I didn’t follow in his footsteps at all. I’m an animator lol. My grandpa almost flew on Enola gay too cause he was good friends with Tibbits. Glad he didn’t go on though… anyways, we got some shit that’s wild even back in the 90s. Still, top comment on this post is very true and I agree with
Ree_on_ice@reddit
I guess he was in Trouble with Tibbits.
grahamulax@reddit
Lolll thats one I know at least. Against my will though...thanks to those rotten dirty bastards at red letter media.
blacsilver@reddit
Is this true or hyperbolic, do you have a source? genuinely curious
henrysmyagent@reddit
Hyperbole on my part. The US has the 7th fastest median broadband download speed in the world, according to Ookla's Speed Test Global Index.
blacsilver@reddit
Ah I see, thanks for clarifying.
bumford11@reddit
If it's true, it's more a product of the USA's immense size and low population density making it costly to service more remote areas. You won't have any problems getting high speed Internet in the major cities. Although there are other factors than just logistics, of course.
demon_dopesmokr@reddit
I second the other user that recommended Joseph Tainter - his energy-complexity spiral describes it well.
The energy costs increase exponentially with increased structural and organisational complexity.
When a power structure consumes more energy than it can produce then it must cannibalise itself. Like a starving body that eventually begins to metabolise its own muscle mass and even its internal organs in order to sustain itself, until its systems collapse and shut down.
What are the societal and political implications? Like a business selling off its capital and assets in order to finance the escalating interest on its debt, the economy is gradually hollowed out from the inside. Infrastructure degrades due to lack of maintenance, government services are gradually defunded or closed down, budget constraints affect every aspect of public life, systems of social support are eroded and people are left to fend for themselves.
Empires can collapse from the inside out, finally buckling under their own tremendous weight. Or as they lose their ability to project power they can face external pressures which often become the catalyst to trigger an internal collapse.
The weakening is cultural and ideological institutions also facilitates a decline in public trust, and social cohesion begins to erode, leading to social and political instability and tensions that can quickly erupt into violent disorder.
swords_of_queen@reddit
There is a really lovely riverfront park near where I live. All summer it was full of families cooking, enjoying nature, swimming, hiking. laughing etc. Last year there was supposedly a fire underneath a bridge you had to cross (over a railway) to enter the park. The bridge appears totally fine, but there was something that happened that does need to be assessed by an engineer. The park was closed and has remained so, for a year and a half so far with no signs of any action being taken. This was a heavily used park. I believe it was sabotage, specifically because of its popularity, and I’ve given up hope that it will be reopened.
Sta41BC@reddit
I see some other good references. I’ll add mine, Chris Hedges. Empire of illusion is a good book. He has some good YouTube talks as well.
Shoots_Ainokea@reddit
Chris Hedges also wrote a book called "War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning" about the ex-Yugoslavia area which he visited, and the people and mindset there. I believe this is worth perusing because the US is really close to "going Yugoslavia".
cabalavatar@reddit
We have all the money and resources we'd need to maintain our infrastructure. The problem is that the 1% has gobbled up almost all the money and either owns the resources or owns those in charge of the resources (governments).
So, instead, neoliberal capitalism lets everything built before it slowly erode, including democracy. And of course, neoliberal politicians continue calcified approaches because they can't imagine anything but market-based solutions/capitalism.
audioen@reddit
No, this is not accurate. Money doesn't matter, or it is a distant second factor beyond the idea of extracting resources from the ground and seas, and turning these into industrial goods. In aggregate, wealth is principally a matter of how much energy is available per capita in our particular era where almost all hard labor is done by machines.
Pacifican25@reddit
Not only do they take all the money, but they go and invest it in manufacturing in China or Vietnam or India for cheap labor. It lets them sell lots of consumer gadgets at high margins, which they then reinvest in foreign countries...
What happens when we're at war with these nations? They stop giving us their gadgets, or anything, and we have no more manufacturing, and just some useless paper money while our infrastructure has crumbled.
Pacifican25@reddit
And they're using their money to invest in manufacturing in China to take advantage of their cheap labor. All while the US debt is growing higher and higher. We're just bleeding out.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit
👏
howardzen12@reddit
America is collapsing.America falling.China rising.
commesicetaithier@reddit
How exactly is China rising? China has fallen for the same capitalist scam of unlimited growth for the sake of simply growing. Its economy is a joke, they mass produce useless garbage only wasting resources and contaminating the Earth, unemployed people are literally pretending to have a job to avoid the embarassment.
justalinuxnoob@reddit
I was going to try and encourage you to avoid playing team sports on account of the fact that structural issues plague both empires and that there is much that can be learned from the circumstances they find themselves in, but after checking your post history I'm not even sure you're a real person.
hippydipster@reddit
When you build something -- anything at all, whether it's software, roads, schools, power plants, landfills or trains, you're on the hook for building it again and again in the future, because what "maintenance" truly is in the long term. Wind turbines don't last forever, and you'll have to rebuild it. AND you'll have to deal with the waste from the first one. AND you probably never stopped adding additional ones too, to the point where basically all your wealth got plowed back into growth, failing to leave room in the budget to rebuild what already exists.
Because people like to think you only have to build a city once.
So eventually, you outrace what you can sustain. You can't stop that from happening without seriously oppressive authoritarianism.
gobeklitepewasamall@reddit
Jason hickel has a great line… idk if he was quoting someone or he made it up… “Capitalism doesn’t solve its contradictions, it externalizes them.”
It’s brilliant and simple. It applies to everything from the expansion into empire & the imperial model, to the American frontier, to the consensus model of “sustainable DEVELOPMENT” straight through to the self consuming beast of unapologetic cannibal capitalism we now see rearing its head, complete with commencement addresses dedicated to defending inequality (look up university of Austin, carvalho) & politicians openly praising & modeling their policies after hatchet wielding villains like Murray Rothbard, Hayek & Von Mises… Even all the talk of mars is just another attempt to externalize those costs. Dump everything on a dying earth, cut their losses once it’s good and dying & fuck off.. leaving us all to clean up their mess.
Ree_on_ice@reddit
Eh, we'll see.
Nadie_AZ@reddit
I do believe that LinkedIn is one of those signs.
Prok-@reddit
This is very interesting