I want to be clear from the outset. I’ve never been a car enthusiast. My driving history includes a hand-me-down Volvo with a hole in the floorboards and a series of aggressively practical vehicles, including a VW Golf and a Mazda SUV in which I hauled my family around for 12 years. Then I leased a BMW i4 electric car.
…
Nearly two years later, I’m doing something I never thought I’d do: eagerly awaiting the end of a lease on a luxury car because its software is such a disaster that it makes my rusted-out Volvo look like a paragon of reliability.
Not a car person, never was a car person, and the tech made them hate the car.
Take a victory lap, y’all. Our opinion went so far off one side of the enthusiast spectrum it reconnected with the mainstream opinion.
I get mildly annoyed if something mechanical breaks or wears out, not just cars, but in general, like for example the water heater at home going out, along with car stuff, etc. Annoyed but just shrug and deal with it, maybe it's mechanical sympathy. However, I lose my fucking mind and turn into a crazy raving lunatic when software and electronics in my life mess up. For some reason that conjures demons within me.
If you use old software, it's amazing how tightly written it is compared to modern crap. Like at one point, Apple was emulating Motorola 68k code on PowerPC Macs, and the entire emulator (written by two dudes, Gary Davidian and Eric Traut) used a couple hundred kilobytes of RAM. Meanwhile today's kiddie programmers can't get a "Hello, World" program running with less than 25 MB.
yup. everything was so much more solid. The whole "move-fast-and-break-things" crap and agile idea was all wrong. make it right the first time and it will last forever.
It's a symptom of enshittification. Platform decay.
Consider how video games and software had to work flawlessly out of the box? Today developers can release poorly optimized slop packed with subscription services, ads, and microtransactions that's incomplete and unstable, only to then patch it into submission and later allow support for the product to lapse, bricking the product entirely.
Exactly. I don’t know how you would quantify this, but I’d bet the ratio of complexity-to-reliability has actually increased. This sub just has a lot of folks with the boomer mentality of “they don’t make ‘em like they used to!” and there’s no reasoning with those people.
It's very funny to see as someone a few years older than the average age on here. I see lots of posts about how the 2000s were the golden era of cars, and I remember well how people in 2004 bemoaned the complexity of modern cars and wished they could return to the simpler times of the 1980's.
Nostalgia is a hell of a drug, and getting someone to admit they're full of shit and the rose tinted glasses are doing more talking than their brain is basically impossible.
A lot of that is also that old software simply did less. When you're writing explicit binary or even straight assembly you just can't do much. You're giving the actual CPU a list of direct instructions. That modern memory bloat is because instead of it being the engineer writing the machine-level code you have software (the compiler) doing it and software cannot be as efficient as hand-tuning.
because instead of it being the engineer writing the machine-level code you have software (the compiler) doing it and software cannot be as efficient as hand-tuning.
Nor should it be, CPUs are so fast now that it is genuinely a waste of time to spend any effort doing this level of optimization. Whatever the compiler does on its own is plenty for any software project in 2025.
If you drive an old care, it's amazing how tightly it's built compared to modern crap. Like, at one point, you could buy a brand new Honda with 60 HP for the entire car and the air conditioner. It used three gears. Meanwhile today's kiddie drivers can't get down the highway without infinity gears and 200 HP.
The point of that is that software was not magically better 40 years ago, it was better because software was something literally a few thousand nerds on the planet did in their spare time and it was their craft. Now, it's a job, and like anything else, there are people who are great and there are people like me just trying to keep the paychecks flowing.
Your concerns about RAM are also basically irrelevant, because RAM is like gasoline: it does literally nothing for you sitting in the tank.
Enshittification has come for everything. It's not that software developers today lack talent. Quite the opposite actually. The field is full of bright and motivated software engineers, more so than ever before.
Developing good software takes time and costs a lot of money. There's a patience required that a lot of companies don't understand. The business people running things want to see progress, and often don't care about testing or code quality. Plus, like a every other job, developers are expected to do more and more with less. People leave or get laid off, and instead of replacing them their coworkers absorb the responsibilities. More and more companies are also offshoring their software to cheaper developers in other countries, and often the quality of code decreases too.
Totally agree, I've seen this some many software companies. Longstanding firms have steadily decreased the quality of their product and deliver little-to-no incremental improvements in core product lines, instead devoting resources entirely to new revenue streams, rather than fixing bugs. Absolute enshittification.
100% agree. I work in enterprise software. Over the last three years, I've had three separate incredibly talented juniors join our team, work for 1.5-2 years taking on increasingly complex work, then leave for another company because company policy prevented them from being promoted (and paid) to an appropriate level for their work.
Executive leadership will frequently talk to other groups and promise functionality without talking to us first or checking our roadmap. We're left then to figure it out, regardless of the opportunity cost and pressure to then cut corners on current work and tech debt. One director in particular loves being on the cutting edge, so will pressure us into patching beta builds for no reason other than he gets to brag about how advanced we are at conferences.
We have integration dependencies with other parts of IT and it's a total crapshoot if they know what they're doing and if they even care. You can throw something on their backlog, but if they have no reason to work on it, it'll sit there forever. All the end users see is broken functionality and assume it's incompetent devs.
The old days could be done with smaller teams that were also run by people who knew how it all worked. Now we get MBAs who think they understand how a tech stack works and tell their code monkeys to just make it happen because they heard about something some other company is doing at a conference.
As a software engineer - it's the most complex thing you interact with in daily/consumer devices, and most companies won't pay enough for it, and no company wants to get left behind in the race to have more techy softwarey features in their widget. Software is also unique in that you save money/time by reusing as much of it as possible in new designs, so it tends to accumulate and get worse over time as the complexity grows. Imagine if you could only design a new engine using existing parts, but you can have as many of those parts as you want and maybe a new one here and there, and gluing them together is actually really easy, and that engine needs like every feature possible per the requirements from corporate...
It's doubly frustrating because I've experienced enough things with simple firmware, like say an LS1 PCM or an old radio head unit, to know that we could do better. Complex software things can be great when companies put the effort in too, like the Steam Deck OS or Tesla's infotainment - but that takes the right people and team setup and you still gotta pay up for it.
I don't work in automotive but from what I've heard secondhand, it's not a great place for software teams, for the most part.
these car companies still seem to regard software development and UX as ancillary to their product, rather than part of the core experience and a significant aspect of a car's value.
That's exactly what it is. They view it as an add-on, not a core feature. And they staff accordingly. I've been recruited by all of the Big 3 over the years. Their corporate culture is straight out of the 1980s and they badly underpay. They're not trying to get top-tier talent and the software they put in their cars reflects that.
A friend of mine worked on the website for one of those Big 3. He said they could integrate the ability to customize your car online with the factory's production because the factory still ran on COBOL.
I have a friend who works at GM. He can't escape his software job there because GM invented a language to run its payroll software in the late 80s and that's all he's used his entire career. He's trapped because nobody at GM wants to pay for them to transition to something that isn't totally fucking insane.
Heh, to be fair I feel the same way... sort of. I can handle the UX lag and hiccups in my current two cars, even coming from a Tesla. The powertrain, ADAS and other critical parts of their firmware work great, fortunately.
I do know carmakers are going to increasingly lose sales to this stuff though. Supposedly they already do in tech-heavy markets like Chinda, from what I understand.
If you come from a country where everything domestic is seen as good, and everything foreign is not, it's way easier to switch to domestic producers once they start making cars with comparable value/features
because you inherently understand that mechanical things wear and break even if they are made "perfectly."
when a water pump, alternator or whatever else broke on my old Corolla it was annoying, but the car was old and just like me the parts have a lifespan that isn't infinite. it's not sympathy so much as just understanding entropy.
but software can be brand spanking new and it's laggy bug ridden mess. if my brand new car was throwing engine codes every 500 miles I would be just as angry as when the display freezes randomly or the Bluetooth fucked up.
it's the expectation that a new thing should work like new, and software doesn't get old like that
It's because you can't fix it. If something mechanical breaks you replace the broken parts and the problem is solved. If the software bugs out there's nothing you can do to actually prevent it from happening over and over and over, it's just a permanent flaw in the system.
That’s not always true. Software can be patched, and software updates are actually common in cars nowadays. Moreover, there are ways to mitigate software bugs, depending on what the specific bug is.
Also, hardware problems are even more permanent. For instance, if a car is designed with side view mirrors that have poor aero and create a ton of wind noise while driving at speed, putting new OEM mirrors won’t fix the problem.
My issue with tech is when it’s supposed to work, but random settings or things make it not work.
My current biggest gripe: our brand new odyssey only allows 1 mirror to angle down when backing up. You can choose which one by sliding the mirror adjuster to that side, but you can only have 1 angle down at a time. Why?? It’s literally a software setting, not limited by anything physical or mechanical. They had no reason to do that, but added it in for some odd reason. If neither one angled down, I’d say it just doesn’t have that feature and move on. But the fact that they added the feature, but did the software poorly, drives me insane.
But don't you only really need one mirror to angle down to see the curb when parallel parking? And in that case, it's better the other mirror stays in a position where you can easily see if a car's about to drive by before you swing the door open. It can be annoying, but I can see the safety aspect of the decision rather than them just being obtuse.
It depends on the angle. I normally use the right to align with the line when backing in, but backing out of the driveway I use the left. It should just be something programmable like most cars do. I have a 14 year-old Lexus that you can set exactly where you want the mirrors to angle to (if at all) for each seating position. All the hardware’s there for them to do that, it’s just the software that’s lacking.
It's really bizarre it's the total opposite with myself, and I am software developer but really mechanically inclined, I do all my own work at home and on my car (moreso my car as I grew up working on trucks).
I think the thing that frustrates me is the feeling of sloppy development. Someone at some point decided not to be rigorous, cut corners, maybe it was a designer, maybe it was a product manager or a pmo, but somebody did something that was, by choice or by incompetence, mediocre and sloppy.
what's particularly maddening about this when it comes to cars is that it's literally a life-or-death issue. the industry spends so much time crash testing and making cars safer, but if there's a software issue that causes an accident, oh well.
I’m afraid Lexus is one of the worst and I still highly recommend them. I’ve been in a few 2024-2025 loaners and while they’re getting much better, it’s still unintuitive.
BMW’s software is better, but I don’t believe any manufacturer is free of glitches, errors, illogical bullshit, etc.
The best thing the automakers ever did was integrate Android Auto / Apple CarPlay into their cars. I.e. let actual software companies be in control. Three of our five cars have the same interface thanks to Android Auto.
Frustratingly, Toyota is working to create their own UI/UX and will undoubtedly suck at it. Tesla is the only one that does it well because they aren't a car company.
Shitty software bugs in unnecessarily complicated infotainment is an objective failure in product engineering.
A luxury car should be luxury for casuals too. Most people aren’t nerds who discuss how a chassis handles aggressive cornering. Virtually everyone needs a car, you’re not special because you self proclaim yourself as a car enthusiast.
Shitty software bugs in unnecessarily complicated infotainment is an objective failure in product engineering.
Experiencing a software bug is subjective, not objective. If you want to be objective, you have to look at data, not anecdotes.
For instance, imagine that Car Brand A has major software bugs that affect 60% of drivers while Car Brand B has major software bugs that affect 5% of drivers. If someone with Car Brand B experiences software bugs, they would be stupid to conclude that Car Brand B is objectively a "failure in engineering," at least relative to Car Brand A, just because they ran into a bug.
Try to use just a little bit of critical thinking before you comment. BMW has one of the absolute best infotainment systems on the planet currently. There are other things to complain about BMW, but making up gremlins that don't really exist on an appreciable scale isn't the way to do it.
What is it then? What would you call a package of software and hardware that is meant to create a centralized, adaptable, customizable, graphical human-machine interfaces for the occupants of a whole bunch of different vehicle models to monitor and control a whole lot of different systems and components? Herbalism?
I gotta say, the “phone as a key” functionality is the dumbest fucking thing I’ve ever seen gain widespread adoption - particularly since keys aren’t that or cumbersome to begin with, don’t have a battery that can run flat in a day, don’t get arbitrarily locked out, don’t break if the screen smashes, work is you’re out of cellular network range… the list goes on.
For real there’s an alternate universe where cars all ran on a phone app and the game changer was that someone invented a little fob that you just keep in your pocket and now you don’t need your buggy phone app any longer!
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills on this shit. Anyone else see the Always Sunny podcast where Glen Howerton talked about making the mistake of parking his Tesla in a garage where he lost signal, and thus he had to get his car towed to the garage door so he could get in?
Phone as a key functionality is the BEST fucking functionality I’ve ever seen.
Keys are very cumbersome. I like not having to carry an extra piece of metal in my pocket.
Most people DON’T run out of phone battery at the exact moment they have to enter their car.
“Arbitrarily” locked out? lol what? Care to elaborate?
Most people DON’T smash their phone screen. If you do, then you have other problems you got to deal with.
This is the most ridiculous one - “out of coverage” from what? Do you know how phone keys work? They don’t fucking need a cellular network you dumbass. They work on Bluetooth. You don’t go out of coverage from Bluetooth. Whatever you saw on that show you’re referring to was a fucking joke. Have you ever actually used a phone key? If yes, how often have you actually run into those issues? You sound like someone who likes to complain about shit that doesn’t make sense to you but have never actually used that thing. You sound like an old, uneducated person.
If you take the time to read the article, brochacho, it tells you about getting arbitrarily locked out by shitty BMW software and seemingly random unpairing. And if that happens when you’ve got no signal, guess what? You’ve also got no car! Unless, of course, you use a fucking key.
Also keys aren’t “very cumbersome” lol, do you need a key to your house? My car key fob is on the same keyring that my house key is on. It’s much larger than my house key, for sure - but my car key is like the size of a wine cork.
As for the battery/screen snark, accidents happen to folks sometimes.
Lol some people just dont like having things in their pocket at all. Especially girls who dont have pockets in their pants at all. We have smart locks and my carkey is basically a must at this point for my partner because it’s just convenient.
Everyone has different usecases, as long as they don’t start limiting our choices I don’t have a problem and I’m happy with the adoption. Me personally I always brought my car keys but it was very convenient to just use my phone whenever I didn’t have my keys and didn’t expect to drive
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You keep harping on about this “no signal” issue but I’m genuinely convinced you have no fucking idea how phone keys work. I’ll say this again - you don’t need cellular signal for your phone key to work. You need Bluetooth. You NEVER run out of coverage from Bluetooth. If your phone is getting randomly unpaired, that’s a legit issue. But seriously ask yourself- how often does that happen? What’s your sample size? Or are you using that article as anecdotal evidence from one guy? Don’t focus on edge cases. Get out of this “what if” mindset.
Again, you’re someone who’s averse to change. Especially changes brought by technology because you do not understand how it works but you heard some old ass grandpa complain about it once on your local Facebook group. And you’re here to regurgitate that one issue that happens maybe once a year and therefore the whole concept is shit.
No, I don’t carry house keys or any keys for that matter because my house has smart locks. And I love it. You should try it sometime - take help from your grandson or someone younger to set it up for you.
The screen goes black and white. He opens his drawer, and a pile of keys falls out.
Voice of the oxyclean guy. Is keeping track of all your keys a hassle? Are you as unable to chop a vegetable as you are to store food in plastic containers? Then you need our AssKey(tm)! A single key fob that goes straight up your ass!
Locked out of your car? Pull it out of your ass!
Find your mailbox and rear door key too similar? Pull it out of your ass!
Your BMW requests a QR code to verify your identity and your phone drained to 5%? Pull the AssKey from your ass!
What do I do if I have to take a shit outside and my asskey falls out and gets flushed down the toilet? I’ll likely need a backup asskey that my gf can carry. Is there an offer for buy 1, get 1 50% off? What about asskey for the whole family?
I had a BMW i5 M60 - it couldn't even stream music without issues that my latest car doesn't have so I wasn't about to trust it to let me in my car on a road trip.
Whatever you saw on that show you’re referring to was a fucking joke
He was parked in an underground lot. Since the car was underground it couldn't get a signal and the service people couldn't do anything to it remotely. It was a legit issue, albeit a pretty rare set of circumstances.
Except that doesn't make sense, because the key relies on bluetooth. It doesn't matter if you're 10 feet underground of 100 feet underground, your bluetooth isn't going to be affected by it. Sounds like a gag you all fell for.
I'm shocked people hate this. It's the best tech feature I've ever had in a car. Also theft rates are much lower for cars with this feature. Also keys have batteries too that can run out, you don't need cellular data to unlock the car or drive, and a broken screen won't stop it from working, so literally every point you made was wrong.
The first is that yet again, someone hasn’t read the article. The reason you need connectivity is because the author (and many others) experienced random unpairings/software failures which require the whole logout/login/pairing sequence to be redone - and yes, that requires network connection. I’m not talking about when the thing is working perfectly - I (and the author) am talking about the edge cases. Shit, in 2023, Rivian seems to have had some major issues with the service - owners got an app notification stating that there was an outage. However!
You and many of the replies to my reply have made many good points - and you have all collectively made me realize that it is actually a shitty opinion. There are many very good reasons to use phone as a key that I hadn’t considered; and while I do remember many people having problems - as the author of the article did - it seems like those were mostly teething issues and that new cars (2024+) seem to be pretty bulletproof. Ultimately I think the right way to go about it is to leave the choice up to the owner - there’s absolutely nothing wrong with choice - but if a car were only to be usable with an app I’d simply not buy it.
I’m not going to delete my original reply though, posting an opinion you later realize is wrong and then deleting it is coward shit.
Tell you what, I’ll absolutely cede this point: probably 99% of my personal issues with the tech are to do with its implementation. If it worked as advertised: if car companies were actually capable of making good quality, reliable, attractive and useful software that could be guaranteed to do the right thing 100% of the time without fail - AND if they also didn’t take advantage of the perverse incentives our regulatory environment permits (harvesting and sale of customer data) - then I’d be on board.
As-is though, the 2025 automotive software stack is buggy awful shit that’s slow, unresponsive, privacy violating, riddled with bugs and vulnerabilities and collecting data about its owner from the moment the door opens for sale to the highest bidder - and a phone key that requires an app counterpart to be installed on your phone simply enhances the data harvesting opportunities. And that shit - the monetizable portion - is the only part that’s guaranteed to work 100% of the time.
The great irony that you got the "BMW" that has the lease BMW OS in probably... 20 years. That's why you have any issues you might have.
Which, to that end: Do you have issues? Or does it work for you? Because you've spent post after post after post arguing about all this stuff that 'might not' work, etc etc, and at the end of the day, it just... does.
You use the word 'article' like it's some god-given truth of owner experiences. It's one person's take. You want me to write up my perfect experience and host it on another domain so I can 'prove' you wrong?
Ok, that one person had a problem. Cool. It's clearly not widespread. Phone glitches happen. Fob batteries die. This is a pointless 'debate' because people use these constantly. I haven't touched a keyring in like... 2 months. Arguing in support of wireless fobs while arguing against phones is a hilarious take. It's literally the same technology. If anything, you should be arguing for physical metal keys.
The article which links to a BMW dedicated forum of BMW owners and BMW users of this specific BMW technology is not representative of BMW owner experiences, yes
Haha, okay man, sure. Honestly, I regret spending the time to even have any actual discussion with you, because you clearly just wanna make little quips back and forth. And yes, I totally know you're likely gonna be a last word kind of guy, so go ahead and throw out your "See? You have nothing left to say" comment; I'm just letting you know now I'm not gonna waste any more time replying to you. Enjoy your old Jag and your fake BMW (And yes, I know you're about to write "I will, thanks.")
Tesla did it right, you can use your phone and it acts like one with the proximity sensor, you don’t have to do anything else just grab the handle and open the door.
BUT they also give you 2 spare credit card style key to put in your wallet ($15 dollar to replace, doesn’t even need battery). Just sky it in your wallet.
There’s already a device in your pocket capable of RFID/UWB. Why have two?
Network connection is not required. Let’s also not pretend like you’re running around with a dead phone if you own a $50K+ 2022+MY car capable of this functionality.
Phones are people’s lives today. The future is now old man.
Anyone else see the Always Sunny podcast where Glen Howerton talked about making the mistake of parking his Tesla in a garage where he lost signal, and thus he had to get his car towed to the garage door so he could get in?
That was a joke, not something that happened in reality. You don't need a signal for Bluetooth to work, it's local.
No, I’m not talking about the episode where that happened, I’m talking about the podcast which inspired the scene from the episode. It’s a thing that actually happened to Glen
It's not possible for that to happen since there's no need for any cell signal. If he couldn't get in, it's a skill issue on his part, nothing that the car did.
As a tesla owner, I couldn't disagree with you more. You carry your phone everywhere as is. Having it double as a seamless key to get into your car and start driving is a small luxury I never appreciated until I had it. Carrying a key seems completely unnecessary now.
Phone as a key works flawlessly on my i5. Should be noted that BMW uses UWB for the connection instead of the much more jank bluetooth connection that Tesla and others use. Also it'll continue to work as a key for several hours after the phone "dies"
Anyone else see the Always Sunny podcast where Glen Howerton talked about making the mistake of parking his Tesla in a garage where he lost signal, and thus he had to get his car towed to the garage door so he could get in?
It was worse than that. They couldn't get it to go into tow mode and the service dept couldn't' do anything because it was underground and not able to get a signal.
And considering how often people drop their phone and break it, I'd hate to be out and have that happen and now be stuck.
I have a 24 X7 with this feature. It’s the one feature that its actually useful. I have turned everything else off. No active anything. They are all gimmicks. Except for the digital key. It’s in the apple wallet. Cell range has nothing to do with it. It has now been a year and it has never not worked for me. I don’t know about other manufacturers but BMW has done this right. It’s amazing
Honestly the newer BMWs systems are excellent, one of the best I've used. Even though people complain about lack of buttons for HVAC I've never had an issue. You practically just have to set your temperature and the system handles it all for you.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with the complaints about HVAC buttons going away. I set my thermostat to 70 and leave the fuck alone for the duration of my life span of the vehicle. These are modern cars, not a 50 year old hunk of metal that needs to be fiddled with endlessly.
I change it depending on the situation, f31 3 series
Is outside really cold? Turn it up a couple of degreees over my usual 22c
Are we in the middle of a August heat wake and im driving around at mid day? That temperature goes all the way down to 19c because 22c is uncomfortable as hell.
I can fiddle with it several times in the span of 15 minutes. Set and forget is cool if you're in a house, less so if you're in a metal bil exposed to the elements.
I’m still chugging iDrive 7 and the physical AC buttons are a godsend. I’m sure the newer iDrive’s touchscreen controls would be something I get used to though.
My personal bigger issue is the dual screen trend where everyone’s putting two screens covered by a sheet of glass. It was cool on the last gen Mercedes and now everyone’s got it going. I’d love to see individuality in brands, iDrive 9(?) with the single center screen and widescreen ‘HUD’ looks cool to me now after seeing all the dual screens
Done at least a few thousand miles in both iDrive 7 and iDrive 8 cars, and completely agree.
Honorable mention to the 'CIC' (which I think works out as roughly the 3rd gen) iDrive in my E82. Over 30k miles and 3.5 years of ownership and it has never, ever, shown any sign of a bug or odd behaviour. If you take into account it's 15 years old and running off a spinny hard drive it's even pretty responsive...
Avoid the Polestar 3. The software issues are notorious. I would upgrade to a 3 if the issues weren't even worse than in my 2. In the 2 everything worked fine until a few months ago, when a software update bogged the system down so everything is slower and sometimes glitches out now.
Depending on the time of day this sub may say your car is literally undrivable because it has no physical HVAC button. Apparently it's super important to people to be able to quickly turn up and down their HVAC constantly while driving.
You’ve never met my wife or FIL. It’s turned into one of my pet peeves - how hard is it to just hit the “auto” button and let the car manage the temperature for you?
Yeah I have a '23 X1 and it's fine; the HVAC controls live along the bottom of the screen anyways and can be readily accessed when needed. My complaint is some of the phantom problems I've had on and off for the last two years, like the interior lights randomly turning on (and off) while driving (dealer can't find the cause) and the condensation that keeps getting into the front camera housing that leads to all kinds of warning lights. I still intend on sticking with BMW, I've been eying an X3 M50.
Got stuck in a ‘24 X1 when my G80 was in the shop. Definitely wasn’t a fan personally of the minimalistic interface but far from being a major dealbreaker. I didn’t really enjoy the odd low feeling in what was a larger car. It just didn’t feel balanced for some reason to me I can’t really pinpoint.
It’s basically just a tall hatchback, and I know what you’re referring to, it took me a bit to get used to. I really like it otherwise, but it definitely has its quirks.
Relax, they said nothing of the sort. I don't know how you could possibly read that sentence, quote it and still try mischaracterizing it to a hilarious degree.
I traded in my Volvo which had horrific software for an X5 and haven’t had one issue so far. I’m sure it’s all relative. My 90s 4Runner had no user facing software and hence no software issues.
I had a 2024 X5 last year for a week while traveling and it was by far THE worst interface I’ve ever experienced. It is SO bad, I would never buy a new BMW because of it. Horribly designed.
They are OK. Overly complex and performative with little UI/UX benefits. My parents have a i5M60, X7, and just traded in their old iX. So pretty familiar with the software. Too much going on without utility.
This is why automakers need to embrace Apple and Google in-car infotainment. Let the car makers focus on their expertise, and let the digital guys do their thing. Even Apple discovered they couldn’t venture into the car world, so they gave up, and they’re full of some of the smartest people in the world.
Let specialists focus on their specialty, that’s the lesson.
That's what I thought when I bought a Polestar 2 with Google Android Automotive. But the most recent software update has made the system far worse than before.
I have no interest in any standalone system baked into the car itself. For that reason Android Auto will always beat Android Automotive imo. Being able to plug your phone in and use it from your car's screen is the best because it's not reliant on chips that will eventually become outdated and obsolete..
I can use CarPlay with my Polestar and that basically replaces the built-in interface. But I actually strongly preferred the user experience of the built-in system until the software updates ruined it.
both. I think the processor and memory are insufficient for the software update. So everything is slower, but also things will break when (I assume) the system runs out of memory. For example, if I put in Navigation directions, Spotify will often stop working.
Car ownership shouldn’t be a constant source of aggravation. I shouldn’t have to maintain a mental database of workarounds for features that should just work. I shouldn’t dread software updates because they might break something that was (mostly) functional.
And yet, here we are - developing problems in search of solutions instead of the other way around. It's not new, but certainly aggravating considering "the future" was supposed to be better, not worse!
Newer Volvos are having issues with software. I have a slightly older one. Still giant screen but Volvo built OS.. Not AAOS. I love technology and Google. But my car?
My infotainment doesn't crash. I dont have to reboot it. I didn't need to wait for the next OTA to fix something. I dint get new features .. but that's ok! It's a car! Not a phone.
Keeping it until the wheels come off. Sorry I won't be trying your bullshit Voolgle.
My mom leased a 2024 brand new x1 bmw. I cannot tell you how fucking many times i fought with the software to make it do something simple like connect my phone to the android auto or let me connect my phone in the first place with Bluetooth for music.
Hell. One time the whole screen glitched and i couldn't turn the seat heating off from the maximum setting it got automatically turned to. I had to turn the car off and walk away from it to fully shut it down.
A software upgrade broke the gps unit (even full resetting the car didn't help and it mysteriously got fixed on the morning of when the repair was scheduled) so the only way to use navigation was android auto. This happened during a road trip.
Connecting the accounts is a hell on earth the qr codes don't work half the time and by the next time you drive the car has amnesia and has forgotten your account exists at all.
Everything was behind a touch screen so driving with gloves on during the winter was impossible and tough luck if you forgot a step from the "launch sequence" before starting to drive and had to fiddle a glove off while driving to use the touch screen.
Compare this to my 2019 seat (that cost a fifth of what the bmw would have costed). The only software issue i have come across is that the reverse camera sometimes bugs, but that happens maybe once every three months and it fixes itself. And the rest of the issues are just my phone being dumb with spotify so nothing to do with the car. All necessary functions are physical buttons and the touch screen is basically used for satnav and reverse camera only. Wired android auto connects well and the car doesn't forget that i exist.
I totally get the frustration of the writer of that article. Bmw software sucks.
It's funny because the x1 uses iDrive 9 which is actually just a skinned version of Android Automotive made to look like iDrive 8.5, BMW's own software that doesn't suck
I'm actually surprised to hear this. I don't actually carry around my BMW key anymore because the digital key works so well. It actually works better than the Tesla digital key that always gave me problems.
Realistically, the problem is that non-car people and people who only care about image buy certain cars and whine.
Jeeps are a perfect example. A whole group of people complained that they are uncomfortable, rough handling, and too rugged.... and here we are. Pink jeeps that slows down for before going over a pebble in the road.
I rented a BMW i4 and its software worked very well. Android Auto also worked perfectly. It does take time to learn all the menus, but once you do its very seemless.
The 2022 i4 was subject to six recalls in its first year, including one so serious that BMW told owners their cars were fire risks when parked and advised them to “stop driving this vehicle immediately.”
BMW: Warning, there is a risk of fire when the car is parked.
If you took the stick out of your ass and spent five minutes reading the article, you would see that the writer actually agrees with us auto enthusiasts. And like the other comment said, the general public dictates the trends that manufacturers follow, not the enthusiast.
You should calm down, very reactionary. She doesn't view or appreciate cars the way I do, why would I care what she has to say? I'm perfectly fine with my daily drive that was dictated by the general public.
Enthusiasts aren’t a dying breed, they just are not and never have been the majority or the priority.
If anything, the bigger trend is the number of appliance-grade drivers growing as cars become more and more mandatory for basic daily life in the US. The small town and the mom & pop shop is dying, which means even more people now need to be able to drive down a 4-lane business road to get past target’s parking lot and Kroger’s parking lot to get to Walmart’s parking lot. The urban sprawl lifestyle is slowly killing our culture and enthusiast cars are part of that.
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
…
Not a car person, never was a car person, and the tech made them hate the car.
Take a victory lap, y’all. Our opinion went so far off one side of the enthusiast spectrum it reconnected with the mainstream opinion.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
Falloutvictim@reddit
I get mildly annoyed if something mechanical breaks or wears out, not just cars, but in general, like for example the water heater at home going out, along with car stuff, etc. Annoyed but just shrug and deal with it, maybe it's mechanical sympathy. However, I lose my fucking mind and turn into a crazy raving lunatic when software and electronics in my life mess up. For some reason that conjures demons within me.
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
because it isn't wear, it's because a human made an error. nearly all software is shockingly bad.
kyonkun_denwa@reddit
If you use old software, it's amazing how tightly written it is compared to modern crap. Like at one point, Apple was emulating Motorola 68k code on PowerPC Macs, and the entire emulator (written by two dudes, Gary Davidian and Eric Traut) used a couple hundred kilobytes of RAM. Meanwhile today's kiddie programmers can't get a "Hello, World" program running with less than 25 MB.
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
yup. everything was so much more solid. The whole "move-fast-and-break-things" crap and agile idea was all wrong. make it right the first time and it will last forever.
RFK_Cum_Regimen@reddit
It's a symptom of enshittification. Platform decay.
Consider how video games and software had to work flawlessly out of the box? Today developers can release poorly optimized slop packed with subscription services, ads, and microtransactions that's incomplete and unstable, only to then patch it into submission and later allow support for the product to lapse, bricking the product entirely.
xt1nct@reddit
Let’s look at games, a lot of people like to say old games were better and less buggy. They were also significantly simpler.
Now, we have online multiplayer, 3d, better graphics=more calculations.
In other software we have cloud, micro services and ability to serve a lot of information to millions of clients.
We can watch 4K videos.
We can perform calculations on multiple threads.
The software complexity has increased significantly.
w1ldSeraph@reddit
Might be showing my age, but I remember when you got a new game, put it in your console, and within 2mins you were playing.
Now, it's install, download update, install update, download dlc, install dlc, ad nauseum.
And all the fucking micro-transactions... its a joke.
Realistic_Village184@reddit
Exactly. I don’t know how you would quantify this, but I’d bet the ratio of complexity-to-reliability has actually increased. This sub just has a lot of folks with the boomer mentality of “they don’t make ‘em like they used to!” and there’s no reasoning with those people.
ducky21@reddit
It's very funny to see as someone a few years older than the average age on here. I see lots of posts about how the 2000s were the golden era of cars, and I remember well how people in 2004 bemoaned the complexity of modern cars and wished they could return to the simpler times of the 1980's.
Nostalgia is a hell of a drug, and getting someone to admit they're full of shit and the rose tinted glasses are doing more talking than their brain is basically impossible.
Less-Fondant-3054@reddit
A lot of that is also that old software simply did less. When you're writing explicit binary or even straight assembly you just can't do much. You're giving the actual CPU a list of direct instructions. That modern memory bloat is because instead of it being the engineer writing the machine-level code you have software (the compiler) doing it and software cannot be as efficient as hand-tuning.
ducky21@reddit
Nor should it be, CPUs are so fast now that it is genuinely a waste of time to spend any effort doing this level of optimization. Whatever the compiler does on its own is plenty for any software project in 2025.
ducky21@reddit
If you drive an old care, it's amazing how tightly it's built compared to modern crap. Like, at one point, you could buy a brand new Honda with 60 HP for the entire car and the air conditioner. It used three gears. Meanwhile today's kiddie drivers can't get down the highway without infinity gears and 200 HP.
The point of that is that software was not magically better 40 years ago, it was better because software was something literally a few thousand nerds on the planet did in their spare time and it was their craft. Now, it's a job, and like anything else, there are people who are great and there are people like me just trying to keep the paychecks flowing.
Your concerns about RAM are also basically irrelevant, because RAM is like gasoline: it does literally nothing for you sitting in the tank.
JaredGoffFelatio@reddit
Enshittification has come for everything. It's not that software developers today lack talent. Quite the opposite actually. The field is full of bright and motivated software engineers, more so than ever before.
Developing good software takes time and costs a lot of money. There's a patience required that a lot of companies don't understand. The business people running things want to see progress, and often don't care about testing or code quality. Plus, like a every other job, developers are expected to do more and more with less. People leave or get laid off, and instead of replacing them their coworkers absorb the responsibilities. More and more companies are also offshoring their software to cheaper developers in other countries, and often the quality of code decreases too.
tujuggernaut@reddit
Totally agree, I've seen this some many software companies. Longstanding firms have steadily decreased the quality of their product and deliver little-to-no incremental improvements in core product lines, instead devoting resources entirely to new revenue streams, rather than fixing bugs. Absolute enshittification.
Euthybro42@reddit
100% agree. I work in enterprise software. Over the last three years, I've had three separate incredibly talented juniors join our team, work for 1.5-2 years taking on increasingly complex work, then leave for another company because company policy prevented them from being promoted (and paid) to an appropriate level for their work.
Executive leadership will frequently talk to other groups and promise functionality without talking to us first or checking our roadmap. We're left then to figure it out, regardless of the opportunity cost and pressure to then cut corners on current work and tech debt. One director in particular loves being on the cutting edge, so will pressure us into patching beta builds for no reason other than he gets to brag about how advanced we are at conferences.
We have integration dependencies with other parts of IT and it's a total crapshoot if they know what they're doing and if they even care. You can throw something on their backlog, but if they have no reason to work on it, it'll sit there forever. All the end users see is broken functionality and assume it's incompetent devs.
The old days could be done with smaller teams that were also run by people who knew how it all worked. Now we get MBAs who think they understand how a tech stack works and tell their code monkeys to just make it happen because they heard about something some other company is doing at a conference.
Boxsterboy@reddit
Back when storage and processing had a cost, you had to write code efficiently. Now you can be sloppy as hell because it doesn’t really matter.
natesully33@reddit
As a software engineer - it's the most complex thing you interact with in daily/consumer devices, and most companies won't pay enough for it, and no company wants to get left behind in the race to have more techy softwarey features in their widget. Software is also unique in that you save money/time by reusing as much of it as possible in new designs, so it tends to accumulate and get worse over time as the complexity grows. Imagine if you could only design a new engine using existing parts, but you can have as many of those parts as you want and maybe a new one here and there, and gluing them together is actually really easy, and that engine needs like every feature possible per the requirements from corporate...
It's doubly frustrating because I've experienced enough things with simple firmware, like say an LS1 PCM or an old radio head unit, to know that we could do better. Complex software things can be great when companies put the effort in too, like the Steam Deck OS or Tesla's infotainment - but that takes the right people and team setup and you still gotta pay up for it.
I don't work in automotive but from what I've heard secondhand, it's not a great place for software teams, for the most part.
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
these car companies still seem to regard software development and UX as ancillary to their product, rather than part of the core experience and a significant aspect of a car's value.
Less-Fondant-3054@reddit
That's exactly what it is. They view it as an add-on, not a core feature. And they staff accordingly. I've been recruited by all of the Big 3 over the years. Their corporate culture is straight out of the 1980s and they badly underpay. They're not trying to get top-tier talent and the software they put in their cars reflects that.
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
A friend of mine worked on the website for one of those Big 3. He said they could integrate the ability to customize your car online with the factory's production because the factory still ran on COBOL.
ducky21@reddit
I have a friend who works at GM. He can't escape his software job there because GM invented a language to run its payroll software in the late 80s and that's all he's used his entire career. He's trapped because nobody at GM wants to pay for them to transition to something that isn't totally fucking insane.
epsiblivion@reddit
tesla has been eating their lunch for years in ui/ux, how have they not wised up
natesully33@reddit
Heh, to be fair I feel the same way... sort of. I can handle the UX lag and hiccups in my current two cars, even coming from a Tesla. The powertrain, ADAS and other critical parts of their firmware work great, fortunately.
I do know carmakers are going to increasingly lose sales to this stuff though. Supposedly they already do in tech-heavy markets like Chinda, from what I understand.
HispaniaRacingTeam@reddit
It's not only the software
If you come from a country where everything domestic is seen as good, and everything foreign is not, it's way easier to switch to domestic producers once they start making cars with comparable value/features
DeviousMelons@reddit
Pretty much all non tech companies that need tech basically go for the lowest bidder when it comes to coding.
ttsnowwhite@reddit
because you inherently understand that mechanical things wear and break even if they are made "perfectly."
when a water pump, alternator or whatever else broke on my old Corolla it was annoying, but the car was old and just like me the parts have a lifespan that isn't infinite. it's not sympathy so much as just understanding entropy.
but software can be brand spanking new and it's laggy bug ridden mess. if my brand new car was throwing engine codes every 500 miles I would be just as angry as when the display freezes randomly or the Bluetooth fucked up.
it's the expectation that a new thing should work like new, and software doesn't get old like that
Less-Fondant-3054@reddit
It's because you can't fix it. If something mechanical breaks you replace the broken parts and the problem is solved. If the software bugs out there's nothing you can do to actually prevent it from happening over and over and over, it's just a permanent flaw in the system.
Realistic_Village184@reddit
That’s not always true. Software can be patched, and software updates are actually common in cars nowadays. Moreover, there are ways to mitigate software bugs, depending on what the specific bug is.
Also, hardware problems are even more permanent. For instance, if a car is designed with side view mirrors that have poor aero and create a ton of wind noise while driving at speed, putting new OEM mirrors won’t fix the problem.
Zelderian@reddit
My issue with tech is when it’s supposed to work, but random settings or things make it not work.
My current biggest gripe: our brand new odyssey only allows 1 mirror to angle down when backing up. You can choose which one by sliding the mirror adjuster to that side, but you can only have 1 angle down at a time. Why?? It’s literally a software setting, not limited by anything physical or mechanical. They had no reason to do that, but added it in for some odd reason. If neither one angled down, I’d say it just doesn’t have that feature and move on. But the fact that they added the feature, but did the software poorly, drives me insane.
megacookie@reddit
But don't you only really need one mirror to angle down to see the curb when parallel parking? And in that case, it's better the other mirror stays in a position where you can easily see if a car's about to drive by before you swing the door open. It can be annoying, but I can see the safety aspect of the decision rather than them just being obtuse.
Zelderian@reddit
It depends on the angle. I normally use the right to align with the line when backing in, but backing out of the driveway I use the left. It should just be something programmable like most cars do. I have a 14 year-old Lexus that you can set exactly where you want the mirrors to angle to (if at all) for each seating position. All the hardware’s there for them to do that, it’s just the software that’s lacking.
derritterauskanada@reddit
It's really bizarre it's the total opposite with myself, and I am software developer but really mechanically inclined, I do all my own work at home and on my car (moreso my car as I grew up working on trucks).
fr4nk_j4eger@reddit
I think the thing that frustrates me is the feeling of sloppy development. Someone at some point decided not to be rigorous, cut corners, maybe it was a designer, maybe it was a product manager or a pmo, but somebody did something that was, by choice or by incompetence, mediocre and sloppy.
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
what's particularly maddening about this when it comes to cars is that it's literally a life-or-death issue. the industry spends so much time crash testing and making cars safer, but if there's a software issue that causes an accident, oh well.
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hi_im_bored13@reddit
This is like one sample out of hundreds of thousands
She also uniquely had an issue with everything except climate control
Internalocus@reddit
I’m afraid Lexus is one of the worst and I still highly recommend them. I’ve been in a few 2024-2025 loaners and while they’re getting much better, it’s still unintuitive.
BMW’s software is better, but I don’t believe any manufacturer is free of glitches, errors, illogical bullshit, etc.
AmbassadorLeather224@reddit
The best thing the automakers ever did was integrate Android Auto / Apple CarPlay into their cars. I.e. let actual software companies be in control. Three of our five cars have the same interface thanks to Android Auto.
Frustratingly, Toyota is working to create their own UI/UX and will undoubtedly suck at it. Tesla is the only one that does it well because they aren't a car company.
hells_cowbells@reddit
And now many of them are trying to do away with Android Auto abs Apple Car Play.
Skensis@reddit
I honestly have more issue with android auto than anything else when it comes to bugs and things not working right.
Tw0Rails@reddit
Yes, defend the need for a QR code in anything involved with a car because someone else has a old clunky system.
nimama3233@reddit
What stupid gate keeping bullshit you’re on.
Shitty software bugs in unnecessarily complicated infotainment is an objective failure in product engineering.
A luxury car should be luxury for casuals too. Most people aren’t nerds who discuss how a chassis handles aggressive cornering. Virtually everyone needs a car, you’re not special because you self proclaim yourself as a car enthusiast.
Realistic_Village184@reddit
Experiencing a software bug is subjective, not objective. If you want to be objective, you have to look at data, not anecdotes.
For instance, imagine that Car Brand A has major software bugs that affect 60% of drivers while Car Brand B has major software bugs that affect 5% of drivers. If someone with Car Brand B experiences software bugs, they would be stupid to conclude that Car Brand B is objectively a "failure in engineering," at least relative to Car Brand A, just because they ran into a bug.
Try to use just a little bit of critical thinking before you comment. BMW has one of the absolute best infotainment systems on the planet currently. There are other things to complain about BMW, but making up gremlins that don't really exist on an appreciable scale isn't the way to do it.
Tw0Rails@reddit
Why the fuck does any car need a QR code to function?
There is no reasonable need for any adjustment, setup, or setting needing a QR code as part of a car interface.
Chudsaviet@reddit
Infotainment is not tech.
TreesLikeGodsFingers@reddit
And water is not wet?
ConfusedTapeworm@reddit
What is it then? What would you call a package of software and hardware that is meant to create a centralized, adaptable, customizable, graphical human-machine interfaces for the occupants of a whole bunch of different vehicle models to monitor and control a whole lot of different systems and components? Herbalism?
pon_d@reddit
I gotta say, the “phone as a key” functionality is the dumbest fucking thing I’ve ever seen gain widespread adoption - particularly since keys aren’t that or cumbersome to begin with, don’t have a battery that can run flat in a day, don’t get arbitrarily locked out, don’t break if the screen smashes, work is you’re out of cellular network range… the list goes on.
For real there’s an alternate universe where cars all ran on a phone app and the game changer was that someone invented a little fob that you just keep in your pocket and now you don’t need your buggy phone app any longer!
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills on this shit. Anyone else see the Always Sunny podcast where Glen Howerton talked about making the mistake of parking his Tesla in a garage where he lost signal, and thus he had to get his car towed to the garage door so he could get in?
seanchappelle@reddit
Phone as a key functionality is the BEST fucking functionality I’ve ever seen.
wwwhatisgoingon@reddit
I mean, I would argue BMW didn't actually improvement Phone As Key correctly if you need the app to open the doors as the article suggests.
True phone as key works exactly as you suggested, you walk up and the door opens. No cell connectivity needed, no app needs to be open.
I haven't run out of phone battery in years.
My next car will have phone as key and I expect to use it almost exclusively.
Live-Habit-6115@reddit
It doesn't require cell connectivity. It communicates over bluetooth.
pon_d@reddit
If you take the time to read the article, brochacho, it tells you about getting arbitrarily locked out by shitty BMW software and seemingly random unpairing. And if that happens when you’ve got no signal, guess what? You’ve also got no car! Unless, of course, you use a fucking key.
Also keys aren’t “very cumbersome” lol, do you need a key to your house? My car key fob is on the same keyring that my house key is on. It’s much larger than my house key, for sure - but my car key is like the size of a wine cork.
As for the battery/screen snark, accidents happen to folks sometimes.
eZreazy@reddit
Lol some people just dont like having things in their pocket at all. Especially girls who dont have pockets in their pants at all. We have smart locks and my carkey is basically a must at this point for my partner because it’s just convenient.
Everyone has different usecases, as long as they don’t start limiting our choices I don’t have a problem and I’m happy with the adoption. Me personally I always brought my car keys but it was very convenient to just use my phone whenever I didn’t have my keys and didn’t expect to drive
Diligent-Minute-6922@reddit
Are you saying people with no pockets have found a way to conveniently carry their phones with them but not a smaller key?
seanchappelle@reddit
It’s not the size of what you have to carry. It’s the number of things. But you already knew that. But couldn’t help be a snarky asshole.
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Educational_Fox6899@reddit
No I don’t need a key for my house. Keypad door lock with a spare well hidden in case FTW. it’s the first thing I do anywhere I live.
bigchecks90@reddit
Same
seanchappelle@reddit
You keep harping on about this “no signal” issue but I’m genuinely convinced you have no fucking idea how phone keys work. I’ll say this again - you don’t need cellular signal for your phone key to work. You need Bluetooth. You NEVER run out of coverage from Bluetooth. If your phone is getting randomly unpaired, that’s a legit issue. But seriously ask yourself- how often does that happen? What’s your sample size? Or are you using that article as anecdotal evidence from one guy? Don’t focus on edge cases. Get out of this “what if” mindset.
Again, you’re someone who’s averse to change. Especially changes brought by technology because you do not understand how it works but you heard some old ass grandpa complain about it once on your local Facebook group. And you’re here to regurgitate that one issue that happens maybe once a year and therefore the whole concept is shit.
No, I don’t carry house keys or any keys for that matter because my house has smart locks. And I love it. You should try it sometime - take help from your grandson or someone younger to set it up for you.
pon_d@reddit
Friend, I’m responding to you on the basis of what the article is about. You’re responding to me on the basis of a strawman of me you’ve set up.
OP can link the article to you but they can’t understand it for you.
Oh_ffs_seriously@reddit
What if he suffers from an American Infomercial Syndrome, where he can't perform otherwise perfectly manageable manual tasks?
Tw0Rails@reddit
The screen goes black and white. He opens his drawer, and a pile of keys falls out.
Voice of the oxyclean guy. Is keeping track of all your keys a hassle? Are you as unable to chop a vegetable as you are to store food in plastic containers? Then you need our AssKey(tm)! A single key fob that goes straight up your ass!
Locked out of your car? Pull it out of your ass!
Find your mailbox and rear door key too similar? Pull it out of your ass!
Your BMW requests a QR code to verify your identity and your phone drained to 5%? Pull the AssKey from your ass!
seanchappelle@reddit
What do I do if I have to take a shit outside and my asskey falls out and gets flushed down the toilet? I’ll likely need a backup asskey that my gf can carry. Is there an offer for buy 1, get 1 50% off? What about asskey for the whole family?
Visible_Quarter_8129@reddit
the problem isn't that it's a good system. It's that it's not something I'd ever rely on to the point where I'd leave my keys at home
seanchappelle@reddit
What car do you drive that is so damn shitty that you can’t rely on its phone key abilities?
Visible_Quarter_8129@reddit
I had a BMW i5 M60 - it couldn't even stream music without issues that my latest car doesn't have so I wasn't about to trust it to let me in my car on a road trip.
shadowofashadow@reddit
He was parked in an underground lot. Since the car was underground it couldn't get a signal and the service people couldn't do anything to it remotely. It was a legit issue, albeit a pretty rare set of circumstances.
kubyx@reddit
Except that doesn't make sense, because the key relies on bluetooth. It doesn't matter if you're 10 feet underground of 100 feet underground, your bluetooth isn't going to be affected by it. Sounds like a gag you all fell for.
brosky7331@reddit
Why the fuck are you so mad about this? Relax
seanchappelle@reddit
No.
frog-hopper@reddit
Some people like say going for a run without their phone. Having a (fairly small) car key is a huge advantage.
DrSpaceman575@reddit
I'm shocked people hate this. It's the best tech feature I've ever had in a car. Also theft rates are much lower for cars with this feature. Also keys have batteries too that can run out, you don't need cellular data to unlock the car or drive, and a broken screen won't stop it from working, so literally every point you made was wrong.
pon_d@reddit
So i have two replies to this:
The first is that yet again, someone hasn’t read the article. The reason you need connectivity is because the author (and many others) experienced random unpairings/software failures which require the whole logout/login/pairing sequence to be redone - and yes, that requires network connection. I’m not talking about when the thing is working perfectly - I (and the author) am talking about the edge cases. Shit, in 2023, Rivian seems to have had some major issues with the service - owners got an app notification stating that there was an outage. However!
You and many of the replies to my reply have made many good points - and you have all collectively made me realize that it is actually a shitty opinion. There are many very good reasons to use phone as a key that I hadn’t considered; and while I do remember many people having problems - as the author of the article did - it seems like those were mostly teething issues and that new cars (2024+) seem to be pretty bulletproof. Ultimately I think the right way to go about it is to leave the choice up to the owner - there’s absolutely nothing wrong with choice - but if a car were only to be usable with an app I’d simply not buy it.
I’m not going to delete my original reply though, posting an opinion you later realize is wrong and then deleting it is coward shit.
fhs@reddit
This is the boomiest of boomer takes I've ever seen and I'm 40 years old
bigchecks90@reddit
I personally hate carrying keys in my pockets. I got a keyless lock at my house for this reason 😹
HighHokie@reddit
if it works as intended I find it a terrific feature. but nothing more aggravating than software that isn’t reliable.
pon_d@reddit
Tell you what, I’ll absolutely cede this point: probably 99% of my personal issues with the tech are to do with its implementation. If it worked as advertised: if car companies were actually capable of making good quality, reliable, attractive and useful software that could be guaranteed to do the right thing 100% of the time without fail - AND if they also didn’t take advantage of the perverse incentives our regulatory environment permits (harvesting and sale of customer data) - then I’d be on board.
As-is though, the 2025 automotive software stack is buggy awful shit that’s slow, unresponsive, privacy violating, riddled with bugs and vulnerabilities and collecting data about its owner from the moment the door opens for sale to the highest bidder - and a phone key that requires an app counterpart to be installed on your phone simply enhances the data harvesting opportunities. And that shit - the monetizable portion - is the only part that’s guaranteed to work 100% of the time.
Active-Device-8058@reddit
As-is though, the 2025 automotive software stack is buggy awful shit that’s slow, unresponsive, privacy violating,
Lol, and which modern BMW do you drive? I use it, and the phone-key functionality is flawless.
pon_d@reddit
‘25 Mini
Active-Device-8058@reddit
The great irony that you got the "BMW" that has the lease BMW OS in probably... 20 years. That's why you have any issues you might have.
Which, to that end: Do you have issues? Or does it work for you? Because you've spent post after post after post arguing about all this stuff that 'might not' work, etc etc, and at the end of the day, it just... does.
pon_d@reddit
lol is nobody reading the article?
Active-Device-8058@reddit
You use the word 'article' like it's some god-given truth of owner experiences. It's one person's take. You want me to write up my perfect experience and host it on another domain so I can 'prove' you wrong?
Ok, that one person had a problem. Cool. It's clearly not widespread. Phone glitches happen. Fob batteries die. This is a pointless 'debate' because people use these constantly. I haven't touched a keyring in like... 2 months. Arguing in support of wireless fobs while arguing against phones is a hilarious take. It's literally the same technology. If anything, you should be arguing for physical metal keys.
pon_d@reddit
The article which links to a BMW dedicated forum of BMW owners and BMW users of this specific BMW technology is not representative of BMW owner experiences, yes
Active-Device-8058@reddit
Haha, okay man, sure. Honestly, I regret spending the time to even have any actual discussion with you, because you clearly just wanna make little quips back and forth. And yes, I totally know you're likely gonna be a last word kind of guy, so go ahead and throw out your "See? You have nothing left to say" comment; I'm just letting you know now I'm not gonna waste any more time replying to you. Enjoy your old Jag and your fake BMW (And yes, I know you're about to write "I will, thanks.")
alphagypsy@reddit
Yup. Most unnecessary invention.
Animanganime@reddit
Tesla did it right, you can use your phone and it acts like one with the proximity sensor, you don’t have to do anything else just grab the handle and open the door.
BUT they also give you 2 spare credit card style key to put in your wallet ($15 dollar to replace, doesn’t even need battery). Just sky it in your wallet.
WCWRingMatSound@reddit
You’re taking crazy pills.
There’s already a device in your pocket capable of RFID/UWB. Why have two?
Network connection is not required. Let’s also not pretend like you’re running around with a dead phone if you own a $50K+ 2022+MY car capable of this functionality.
Phones are people’s lives today. The future is now old man.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
That was a joke, not something that happened in reality. You don't need a signal for Bluetooth to work, it's local.
pon_d@reddit
No, I’m not talking about the episode where that happened, I’m talking about the podcast which inspired the scene from the episode. It’s a thing that actually happened to Glen
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
It's not possible for that to happen since there's no need for any cell signal. If he couldn't get in, it's a skill issue on his part, nothing that the car did.
kubyx@reddit
As a tesla owner, I couldn't disagree with you more. You carry your phone everywhere as is. Having it double as a seamless key to get into your car and start driving is a small luxury I never appreciated until I had it. Carrying a key seems completely unnecessary now.
Clover-kun@reddit
Phone as a key works flawlessly on my i5. Should be noted that BMW uses UWB for the connection instead of the much more jank bluetooth connection that Tesla and others use. Also it'll continue to work as a key for several hours after the phone "dies"
shadowofashadow@reddit
It was worse than that. They couldn't get it to go into tow mode and the service dept couldn't' do anything because it was underground and not able to get a signal.
And considering how often people drop their phone and break it, I'd hate to be out and have that happen and now be stuck.
BestAtempt@reddit
Keys have gotten cumbersome as fuck. I swear the next generation of cars will have a god damn Roku remote.
zxcvbmm@reddit
I have a 24 X7 with this feature. It’s the one feature that its actually useful. I have turned everything else off. No active anything. They are all gimmicks. Except for the digital key. It’s in the apple wallet. Cell range has nothing to do with it. It has now been a year and it has never not worked for me. I don’t know about other manufacturers but BMW has done this right. It’s amazing
lurpeli@reddit
Honestly the newer BMWs systems are excellent, one of the best I've used. Even though people complain about lack of buttons for HVAC I've never had an issue. You practically just have to set your temperature and the system handles it all for you.
Jah348@reddit
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with the complaints about HVAC buttons going away. I set my thermostat to 70 and leave the fuck alone for the duration of my life span of the vehicle. These are modern cars, not a 50 year old hunk of metal that needs to be fiddled with endlessly.
mihametl@reddit
I change it depending on the situation, f31 3 series
Is outside really cold? Turn it up a couple of degreees over my usual 22c
Are we in the middle of a August heat wake and im driving around at mid day? That temperature goes all the way down to 19c because 22c is uncomfortable as hell.
I can fiddle with it several times in the span of 15 minutes. Set and forget is cool if you're in a house, less so if you're in a metal bil exposed to the elements.
Live-Habit-6115@reddit
.....
If you see the temp in your vehicle to 22c (assuming you have AC), it's going to be 22c, regardless of how hot or cold it might be outside.
It's not like it being hot outside somehow makes 22c colder or hotter. It's an objective metric lol
HighHokie@reddit
not weird. a surprising number of folks don’t understand how thermostats work.
Bumbleboy92@reddit
I’m still chugging iDrive 7 and the physical AC buttons are a godsend. I’m sure the newer iDrive’s touchscreen controls would be something I get used to though.
My personal bigger issue is the dual screen trend where everyone’s putting two screens covered by a sheet of glass. It was cool on the last gen Mercedes and now everyone’s got it going. I’d love to see individuality in brands, iDrive 9(?) with the single center screen and widescreen ‘HUD’ looks cool to me now after seeing all the dual screens
alexp8771@reddit
Yeah I'm never upgrading past iDrive 7. iDrive 8 is simply worse in every aspect.
Montague-Withnail@reddit
Done at least a few thousand miles in both iDrive 7 and iDrive 8 cars, and completely agree.
Honorable mention to the 'CIC' (which I think works out as roughly the 3rd gen) iDrive in my E82. Over 30k miles and 3.5 years of ownership and it has never, ever, shown any sign of a bug or odd behaviour. If you take into account it's 15 years old and running off a spinny hard drive it's even pretty responsive...
thefudd@reddit
Same, I haven't had one issue with my i4.
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
what was the one issue you had?
I do wonder if model year matters. I am thinking about switching from a Polestar 2 because recent updates have ruined the software.
Aperson3334@reddit
What’s gone wrong with your Polestar? I’m in the market for a lightly used EV and the Polestar 3 has been on my shortlist.
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
Avoid the Polestar 3. The software issues are notorious. I would upgrade to a 3 if the issues weren't even worse than in my 2. In the 2 everything worked fine until a few months ago, when a software update bogged the system down so everything is slower and sometimes glitches out now.
thefudd@reddit
I haven't had any issues. Model year probably matters, I'm in a 2025 which had the lci updates.
m0viestar@reddit
Depending on the time of day this sub may say your car is literally undrivable because it has no physical HVAC button. Apparently it's super important to people to be able to quickly turn up and down their HVAC constantly while driving.
granolaraisin@reddit
You’ve never met my wife or FIL. It’s turned into one of my pet peeves - how hard is it to just hit the “auto” button and let the car manage the temperature for you?
DeviousMelons@reddit
I assume changing settings with Idrive is also better than clawing at the screen.
Kruzat@reddit
First time, huh? - Tesla owner
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
so do you think this writer just had a uniquely bad experience? I'm genuinely curious.
guy_incognito784@reddit
Yes. Never experienced any of these things in my i4.
The digital key I’ve only used once because I couldn’t find my physical key and was in a rush. The key fob works fine.
ILikeYourMommaJokes@reddit
Writer is annoyed by bad software, while he doesnt care
bean_fritter@reddit
Different people have different tolerances and preferences when it comes to technology.
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
My tolerance for software issues when driving a car is extremely low.
yeah__good_okay@reddit
Yeah I have a '23 X1 and it's fine; the HVAC controls live along the bottom of the screen anyways and can be readily accessed when needed. My complaint is some of the phantom problems I've had on and off for the last two years, like the interior lights randomly turning on (and off) while driving (dealer can't find the cause) and the condensation that keeps getting into the front camera housing that leads to all kinds of warning lights. I still intend on sticking with BMW, I've been eying an X3 M50.
glorfiedclause@reddit
Got stuck in a ‘24 X1 when my G80 was in the shop. Definitely wasn’t a fan personally of the minimalistic interface but far from being a major dealbreaker. I didn’t really enjoy the odd low feeling in what was a larger car. It just didn’t feel balanced for some reason to me I can’t really pinpoint.
yeah__good_okay@reddit
It’s basically just a tall hatchback, and I know what you’re referring to, it took me a bit to get used to. I really like it otherwise, but it definitely has its quirks.
Bortjort@reddit
I have buttons in mine but the auto setting is so good I basically never use them anyway
RequirementLeading12@reddit
"I don't have a problem with it so fuck you to everyone else!"
devilishpie@reddit
Relax, they said nothing of the sort. I don't know how you could possibly read that sentence, quote it and still try mischaracterizing it to a hilarious degree.
Optimus_Primeme@reddit
I traded in my Volvo which had horrific software for an X5 and haven’t had one issue so far. I’m sure it’s all relative. My 90s 4Runner had no user facing software and hence no software issues.
bean_fritter@reddit
Agreed, I’ve never had an issue with iDrive 8. Set and forget.
mcorliss3456@reddit
I had a 2024 X5 last year for a week while traveling and it was by far THE worst interface I’ve ever experienced. It is SO bad, I would never buy a new BMW because of it. Horribly designed.
roll_wave@reddit
They are OK. Overly complex and performative with little UI/UX benefits. My parents have a i5M60, X7, and just traded in their old iX. So pretty familiar with the software. Too much going on without utility.
strangway@reddit
This is why automakers need to embrace Apple and Google in-car infotainment. Let the car makers focus on their expertise, and let the digital guys do their thing. Even Apple discovered they couldn’t venture into the car world, so they gave up, and they’re full of some of the smartest people in the world.
Let specialists focus on their specialty, that’s the lesson.
_BEER_@reddit
The last thing I'd want is Google inside my car. Android Auto feels like a cheap knock off of Carplay and gets shittier with every update.
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
That's what I thought when I bought a Polestar 2 with Google Android Automotive. But the most recent software update has made the system far worse than before.
JaredGoffFelatio@reddit
I have no interest in any standalone system baked into the car itself. For that reason Android Auto will always beat Android Automotive imo. Being able to plug your phone in and use it from your car's screen is the best because it's not reliant on chips that will eventually become outdated and obsolete..
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
I can use CarPlay with my Polestar and that basically replaces the built-in interface. But I actually strongly preferred the user experience of the built-in system until the software updates ruined it.
strangway@reddit
Is it slower or unreliable? What the big difference
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
both. I think the processor and memory are insufficient for the software update. So everything is slower, but also things will break when (I assume) the system runs out of memory. For example, if I put in Navigation directions, Spotify will often stop working.
theflintseeker@reddit
My Volvo c40 has been getting worse too. Good thing it’s a lease.
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
Volvo and Polestar have serious software issues. It's a shame because they are otherwise great cars.
strangway@reddit
Geez that’s lame. Google really adds on functionality without thinking about how it impacts speed
turb0_encapsulator@reddit (OP)
a decade ago I gave up Android for iPhone over the same issues. I didn't realize they were still this bad.
strangway@reddit
My dad still uses the iPhone X I gave him. It’s 7 years old, and still works great.
Naytosan@reddit
And yet, here we are - developing problems in search of solutions instead of the other way around. It's not new, but certainly aggravating considering "the future" was supposed to be better, not worse!
7eregrine@reddit
Newer Volvos are having issues with software. I have a slightly older one. Still giant screen but Volvo built OS.. Not AAOS. I love technology and Google. But my car?
My infotainment doesn't crash. I dont have to reboot it. I didn't need to wait for the next OTA to fix something. I dint get new features .. but that's ok! It's a car! Not a phone.
Keeping it until the wheels come off. Sorry I won't be trying your bullshit Voolgle.
TheEmeraldBullfrog@reddit
Developing solutions in search of problems?
take-money@reddit
Zero issues with mine. User error?
fexam@reddit
It seems more likely to be a quality control issue
take-money@reddit
Why more likely? You have no actual stats?
BlackCatFurry@reddit
My mom leased a 2024 brand new x1 bmw. I cannot tell you how fucking many times i fought with the software to make it do something simple like connect my phone to the android auto or let me connect my phone in the first place with Bluetooth for music.
Hell. One time the whole screen glitched and i couldn't turn the seat heating off from the maximum setting it got automatically turned to. I had to turn the car off and walk away from it to fully shut it down.
A software upgrade broke the gps unit (even full resetting the car didn't help and it mysteriously got fixed on the morning of when the repair was scheduled) so the only way to use navigation was android auto. This happened during a road trip.
Connecting the accounts is a hell on earth the qr codes don't work half the time and by the next time you drive the car has amnesia and has forgotten your account exists at all.
Everything was behind a touch screen so driving with gloves on during the winter was impossible and tough luck if you forgot a step from the "launch sequence" before starting to drive and had to fiddle a glove off while driving to use the touch screen.
Compare this to my 2019 seat (that cost a fifth of what the bmw would have costed). The only software issue i have come across is that the reverse camera sometimes bugs, but that happens maybe once every three months and it fixes itself. And the rest of the issues are just my phone being dumb with spotify so nothing to do with the car. All necessary functions are physical buttons and the touch screen is basically used for satnav and reverse camera only. Wired android auto connects well and the car doesn't forget that i exist.
I totally get the frustration of the writer of that article. Bmw software sucks.
Clover-kun@reddit
It's funny because the x1 uses iDrive 9 which is actually just a skinned version of Android Automotive made to look like iDrive 8.5, BMW's own software that doesn't suck
BlackCatFurry@reddit
That's even worse tbh. It's not even their own software that's buggy
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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BackRed1@reddit
Turn it off then turn it on again?
Staplersarefun@reddit
I'm actually surprised to hear this. I don't actually carry around my BMW key anymore because the digital key works so well. It actually works better than the Tesla digital key that always gave me problems.
ScheduleDry6598@reddit
Realistically, the problem is that non-car people and people who only care about image buy certain cars and whine.
Jeeps are a perfect example. A whole group of people complained that they are uncomfortable, rough handling, and too rugged.... and here we are. Pink jeeps that slows down for before going over a pebble in the road.
noahbrooksofficial@reddit
Now if only they didn’t look like s foot
r3dk0w@reddit
I'm breaking up with Techcrunch for preventing me from seeing the article until I disable my ad blocker.
No thanks.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
God forbid people want to get paid for their writing and hosting
apaulogy@reddit
God forbid we could have affordable content
hi_im_bored13@reddit
What is unaffordable about ads?
r3dk0w@reddit
My time.
bgarza18@reddit
Oh stop it hahaha
devilishpie@reddit
Ad supported content is about as affordable as it could possibly get.
thefudd@reddit
BMW, I am so breaking up with you | TechCrunch
OvONettspend@reddit
This is why online journalism is dying because people are blocking their one source of revenue
mustangfan12@reddit
I rented a BMW i4 and its software worked very well. Android Auto also worked perfectly. It does take time to learn all the menus, but once you do its very seemless.
Realistic_Village184@reddit
Ridiculous blog post masquerading as a news article. There's nothing of value being said here.
CallLivesMatter@reddit
BMW: Warning, there is a risk of fire when the car is parked.
Owner: Oh man, what should I do?
BMW: Stop driving and park immediately.
Owner: Wut
thefudd@reddit
I want to be clear from the outset. I’ve never been a car enthusiast.
Stopped reading right after that
roll_wave@reddit
If you took the stick out of your ass and spent five minutes reading the article, you would see that the writer actually agrees with us auto enthusiasts. And like the other comment said, the general public dictates the trends that manufacturers follow, not the enthusiast.
thefudd@reddit
You should calm down, very reactionary. She doesn't view or appreciate cars the way I do, why would I care what she has to say? I'm perfectly fine with my daily drive that was dictated by the general public.
roll_wave@reddit
I’m quite calm and literate 😊
xt1nct@reddit
Odd. The opinion of general public dictates what a car manufacturer does.
Enthusiast are a dying breed and car makers don’t care because money.
MaybeNext-Monday@reddit
Enthusiasts aren’t a dying breed, they just are not and never have been the majority or the priority.
If anything, the bigger trend is the number of appliance-grade drivers growing as cars become more and more mandatory for basic daily life in the US. The small town and the mom & pop shop is dying, which means even more people now need to be able to drive down a 4-lane business road to get past target’s parking lot and Kroger’s parking lot to get to Walmart’s parking lot. The urban sprawl lifestyle is slowly killing our culture and enthusiast cars are part of that.
Good-Discount-8858@reddit
Next
eric_gm@reddit
I lost neurons after reading that