Blame the price tag. Sure, other vehicles in the price range sell well, but a sedan isn't exactly selling well for any brand, much less a $70k sedan with SUV proportions (minus the height).
If you're Volvo, you're looking at a market segment that's been disappearing for decades, and not offering a compelling reason to spend premium money for that offering.
Yeah, their target market has been people who are willing to pay luxury prices for a kinda/sorta luxury-adjacent (think: Swedish equivalent of Buick) where the main selling points are the safety technologies and the heavy, tank-like feel.
I'd argue one of the main selling points in a Volvo is build quality. They feel sturdy, and the materials used are noticeably higher quality than most American and Japanese vehicles.
The newer ones, yes. Their interiors are very solidly crafted and high quality, but the old ones, like the 240 series in the 80's had lots of interior parts that randomly fell off and seats that ripped.
I came home from the hospital in one when I was born and I rode in it for the first 10 years of my life. My parents told me it was constantly in and out of the repair shop and I remember the interior falling apart. It was so slow, it could barely make it over the Grapevine or Donner Pass without overheating.
Granted, it spent its life in 3 of the hottest, sunniest cities in the US (Las Vegas, Fresno, Sacramento). The interior was probably designed to withstand sun and heat in places like Stockholm, Gothenburg, and Upsala.
Your parents car deserved better. A well maintained 240 is incredible durable, in and out. My 1975 wagon interior is holding up better than most cars made in the 2000's despite being 25 years older, and the chassis is as rugged and as complicated as a screwdriver.
The 240 is one of the most reliable cars ever built, plus the turbo versions were decent performers from the factory and took to mods VERY well. My old 1984 242TIC made like 275hp with basic mods and it's easy to make those things handle well. It was a riot of a car.
The motors are simple and bulletproof, and the 16V head flows like a Honda head if you want to get crazy.
The 240 is one of the most reliable cars ever built, plus the turbo versions were decent performers from the factory and took to mods VERY well. My old 1984 242TIC made like 275hp with basic mods and it's easy to make those things handle well. It was a riot of a car.
To be fair, while the redblocks are phenomenal engines, the Renault V6's that could be optioned were awful. Also, some mid 80's models had a lot of issues with wiring harness insulation rot.
No problems here if you want to shit-talk the PRV V6 or the biodegradable engine harnesses on those particular cars, but to call the entire 200 series unreliable is preposterous. It's the Swedish Civic.
yeah when I was a teen, one of my friends drove their family's hand me down shitbox, an 80s Volvo. I could tell even then it wasn't nice, even for an old ass car.
I didn't know Volvo was supposed to be a nice brand until like 10 years later.
Volvo arguably started moving upmarket in the 80's. The 200 series was their economy line, and the 700/900 series were notably nicer.
I have both an 87 volvo and a nicely-optioned GM g-body of the same year. The volvo is significantly nicer in terms of build quality and fit and finish.
Volvo didn't try to become a luxury brand until Ford bought them and lumped them into their luxury brand group. Then when Geely bought them, they really went upscale.
I think it as the exact opposite. The the last "solidly build, infinity reliable" Volvos were the 700-series. Everything thing since then has been at best "Slightly above average" to "bad" depending on the model.
They're not competing against American and Japanese vehicles, for the most part, though. They're slotted squarely against the Germans while having worse reliability, worse powertrains, and a worse dealership network.
That’s not the point. In the US you used to at least have options for Wagons, even in the 90s and 2000s you had Volvo and Subaru making wagons, priced very similar. When Volvo went upscale in like 2016 they kind of abounded all the buyers who cross shopped Outback’s with Volvos.
You can buy a new Outback for literally half a new V90.
It‘s not about having a cheap car, but prices for Volvos are just excessive for what you get.
They‘re just like Audi in that you can get an equally quality car with very similar specs for a lot less money. Plus their depreciation is worse than Audi.
Last time I was shopping for a V90 they wanted around 90k for the spec I was interested in. 70k would have been absolutely fine fine car, but not 90k.
100% this... I looked at the 60 and 90... The price point is bonkers and the interior is trash for the price point
Most of them don't even have rear seat vents... I looked for used. But I did test drive new bc it was easier to get a feeling first. I was extremely disappointed.
I know this is only a tangentially related point, but the seeming relentless march of the auto industry towards a 30 year loan for cars might be a sign of a big problem with the market.
But maybe I'm just a poor idiot that makes over 6 figures, but still feels poor in this economy.
Here in Europe almost nobody loans for cars. We either lease or drive old cars. Only old people buy new cars here. And they all buy SUVs because it's easy to get in and out. Easy on their weak old backs.
I make close to six figures in the rural Midwest and I'm not sure how people do it either. My fusion was 30k when I bought it and I couldn't imagine spending 50k or more on a car.
I hear ya, ferrous man. All these people (let’s face it, boomers) with their “juSt cUt bAcK oN thE twEnTy doLlAr avOcaDo toAsT” nonsense can take a hike.
Eh, I went with a 2020 V60 CC and wish I had chosen the Alltrack. It's been a fine car in that it's comfortable to drive for extended periods and has never left me stranded. But the transmission sucks, the visibility sucks, and it's insanely heavy. I get 20mpg and eat through expensive pads and rotors like crazy.
The Alltrack feels so much smaller and lighter to drive, and you can get a manual.
They just don't stack up against the competition. I love wagons, and just recently bought one. But I ended up with a Mercedes E400 wagon instead of a V90 cause its about the same price and just better in every way.
Why would I ever buy the Volvo when the Merc is way faster, more efficient, more reliable, cheaper to maintain, and way more comfortable and better equipped?
Volvo interiors are top notch, build quality is the same. Volvo focuses on safety, not gimmicky technology. They don’t cut costs for safety, and when you buy a Volvo it’s the safest car on the road.
I’m not sure where you are getting costs are higher to maintain Volvo, Mercedes charges more per hour for shop work and their parts as a whole cost more. Care to post a link showing this?
To be fair I was thinking about maintenance costs in the context of me doing 99% of work myself. And while MB parts are slightly more expensive, the E400 I got has a much simpler powertrain than most V90 options and just has less shit to be maintained. No hybrid system, no twincharge insanity, just a plain old TTV6- and one with a reputation for being pretty much bulletproof at that. Aside from some of the luxury farkles its a much more traditional design that's easier for a shade tree mechanic to DIY.
As for the interior, Volvo's build quality was fantastic and I definitely never meant to denigrate it; I just found the Merc to be a lot more comfortable and ergonomic, and the sound system sounded a lot better.
Especially when the most direct competition had the twin turbo M276, which is an absolutely fantastic motor. Efficient, smooth, powerful, and pretty damn bulletproof. Parts are even pretty cheap for it cause its used in everything from sports cars to sprinter vans.
Volvos are severely overpriced for what they are. Their price points get absolutely obliterated when you ask yourself, what other luxury can I get for this price (and usually more power). OR how much more function can I get for this price with a “budget brand” given they pretty much only offer low powered 4 cylinders.
My point is the market dictates what companies produce. They like making money, if sedans sold well they would have made all sedans. There isent some cabal trying to ax sedans.
I will lie some of the blame on manufacturers for turning every single one of their cars into Crossover SUVs; even when people liked Hatchbacks, it's not like they only ever sold hatchback models.
Yeah, manufacturers definitely pushed hard toward SUVs even when people were buying smaller cars. It's like they decided for us what we should want instead of just giving options. Now finding a decent hatchback or wagon is actually tough
V90 is one of the more historic and compelling wagons in modern times. If Volvo couldn’t even make the finance math work out, maybe it’s time to look in the mirror on wagons. I don’t think complaining about SUVs is the right way to go about it.
BMW , Mercedes, Volkswagen are all doing great in the wagon segment.
Its time for the SUV hoax to end. Driving a shitty handling car with bad economy, safety and handling because you are afraid in traffic ( yup - researcher indicates this) or because you want to look adventurous is just sad.
Kinda stinks in America we can only get wagons from luxury auto makers - I think if Ford/Chevy/Kia/Hyundai were to make one they may catch on. I would love a Passat wagon
TBF the late Regal was only on sale for like 2 years with minimal marketing, including an anti-sedan commercial that seemingly recommended people to buy Buick crossovers over their sedans, and was discontinued when GM sold off Opel to PSA.
I loved that era of Buick marketing being commercials with a bunch of people surprised their friend would buy a Buick. Idk what they thought they we're going for, but it was perfect.
That's because Buick spent a solid 25 years developing a reputation for inefficient, unreliable (except for anything with the 3800), uncomfortable, ugly cars driven by senile old fucks.
The Regal was a nice car but it was way too little way too late to get anyone to give a Buick a chance
Most vehicle designs besides SUV's and trucks are dead until the US fixes its economy. And that will never happen, so they are probably just dead. You can't have a variety of models and manufacturers when only one demographic is buying cars. Until younger buyers get money to buy cars, we are stuck with SUV's. Because thats all retirees and aging parents want.
Nobody wants them. Enthusiasts don't actually buy them when they exist in sufficient numbers to keep them around. VW tried with the Golf alltrack, Buick tried with the tourx which isn't really a luxury car any more than a high trim level Accord is.
People who want more space than a sedan don't want to bend down to get stuff in and out of the vehicle or to get in and out of the car. And they largely do not give a shit about driving dynamics.
Hope everyone had a good long weekend (non-US probably had just a regular weekend). Anyway here's your daily article and argument about why consumers are fat, lazy morons who refuse to recognize the superiority of the wagon. Enjoy.
2 MPG more may be small, but is significant when considering it’s applicable every time you drive the vehicle, where ground clearance, towing capacity, and interior space are most likely only relevant a few times a year.
There are more reasons why MPG matters than just monetary savings. But if monetary savings is important to you, I dig further into it in one of my other follow up comments.
It ultimately comes down to preference. Wagons could work very well for the majority of people in most scenarios, but people want SUVs. And that’s fine.
"No, you don't understand! It's okay that I personally get 15mpg worse than I should - you should feel so awful about getting 2mpg worse getting an SUV over a wagon that you never even shop for an SUV!"
Lmao that’s not even close to what I’m saying. I’m talking about buyers in general and you’re projecting some environment-hating persona on me.
Maybe you would change your tune if I updated my flair to mention that my entire household is carbon neutral, that I live in a certified passive house, and that I add more power back into the grid than I consume thanks to the solar panels on my roof. But keep painting with those broad strokes, you disingenuous twat. This is a car subreddit, after all.
I was talking about market/buyer trends at a macro level. You’re talking about the car in my personal garage and how that supposedly invalidates what I have to say about the market at the macro level.
When did I complain about environmental impact? I didn’t. I simply pointed out that there are more benefits to fuel efficiency than monetary savings alone.
But this has been a very odd string of interactions. It doesn’t seem like we’re going to resolve anything here, and I’m not going to continue an increasingly toxic conversation for the sport of it. Have a good one.
“Can” and “should” are 2 different things. Fiberglass boats and enclosed trailers get real heavy. A V90 would have half the liftgate underwater trying to launch a boat at some of the ramps we visit lol.
But the way I see it, that V90 has 295hp and 310lb-ft peak torque, my Escape around the same... literally 50% more than the V6 GMT800's from when I was growing up and nobody bats an eye when a cateye backs in a pontoon. Fuckin send it brotha.
Well towing isn’t all about getting something moving, it’s also about having the safety to stop the load and handle it in hazardous situations as well.
"You NEED a specialist TOW vehicle to move horses, a "normal vehicle " is unsafe and just won't manage " - cue old hands muttering about towing horse boxes for years on end without any issues behind a 1970s/80s/90s family 2wd wagon
People buy (serious) cars for functionality in the first place, then for the look/feel. MPG is at best 3rd factor but way behind. I know people who drive heavy SUVs to kindergarten and back (10miles each day).
If you're looking for a MPG efficient car you get a small vehicle, not V90.
This is why so many Americans are poor… they consider a recurring monthly $35 expense to be “nothing.” How about they buy the smaller car, and then for just $20/mo, I’ll give them tips on how to load it properly?
That’s a common financial fallacy though. The cost of one item shouldn’t impact what you’re willing to pay for a separate item. $35 is $35 no matter how it’s used. The fact that you choose to also spend thousands on a car doesn’t change that. Again, Americans falling for this fallacy is what keeps so many poor!
Effort (subjective) and dollars spent (objective) is an interesting comparison, and the weighting will likely change for different people.
MPG savings is also more than just about money.
But if we are talking money, I would suggest adding in purchase price. My wagon cost me $30k. The starting MSRP for the base Ford Explorer that same year was $2-3k more. But if we’re just talking V90s, we can still compare it to SUVs in the luxury segment. But in that segment, money becomes less of an issue.
On the cargo space, the V90 had essentially the same cargo volume as a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and my Buick wagon has even more than the Jeep.
Ultimately it comes down to some objective and a lot of subjective things, including the fact that Americans tend to like sitting up higher even if it’s not objectively logical. I’m not arguing that. I am pointing out that I think wagons would objectively be a logical choice and work for most people in most situations, they’re simply considered gauche these days.
Lmao you must be young. I drive a V90 and my wife drives a Telluride. We drive three hours to the family cabin and back every weekend in the summer. Both vehicles fit what we need to bring just fine (kid, dog, groceries, cooler).
Guess which one we take 9/10 times? The Telluride. Despite being almost the same length and width, the Telluride is easier to load the kid and there's more space to reach back and hand a snack to the kid and whatnot. I used to have a 2019 Silverado and that was even better for weekend trips, but I wanted to try the V90 for a few years.
That being said I love driving the V90 way more, but there's a limit to it's practicality in my situation.
Nah I'm not young, my body severely makes that obvious daily, I just have a severe dislike of SUVs, the danger they place pedestrians - particularly children in, the way they impair everyone else's visibility resulting in arms race of increasingly tall and wide vehicles
Yeah I agree with that, but calling them adult high chairs is a cynical viewpoint for people driving them in the US. It's like 90% of new cars for sale. There's a huge advantage to having a higher line of sight. It was a huge adjustment for me going from the trucks/SUVs I've driven for the last 20 years to a wagon.
People love the visibility for good reasons. Federal regs and manufacturer choices have thrust this on the US. It's unfair to judge people for driving them.
2 MPG more may be small, but is significant when considering it’s applicable every time you drive the vehicle,
2 MPG applied across all the vehicles sold in the entire country/world is a massive amount of pollution reduction, so we really probably should have learned in the 70's and written legislation that would prioritize those incremental gains.
But to an individual consumer it's inconsequential. If you drive the US average of 13,000 miles per year, going from 20 MPG (combined cycle) of a typical crossover to a 22 MPG wagon saves 60 gallons. That's several less fuel stops, but it's less impressive when you point out that it's the difference between 650 gallons 590 gallons and only saves about $200. Sure, most people would take an extra $200 in their pocket, but it's not enough for them to completely change the class of vehicle they're shopping for, nor override practicality concerns. In fact, sales history will show that most consumers will happily fork over ten times that much up front to get a certain capability.
Also, and this also comes up in AWD discussions, truck discussions, towing discussions: It's very liberating not having to plan ahead for that "a few times a year" eventuality. Especially if it only costs $200 a year. How many times can you rent a larger car each year before you burn through that?
Asking consumers as a whole to change their buying habits over 2 MPG is a losing proposition. Whether it's about money, or environmentalism, or energy independence, or performance, or handling... The number is right there on the Monroney sticker and consumers don't care. 2 MPG is not, as you originally said, significant, no matter what factors you consider at the individual consumer level. If it was, people would buy wagons.
I think you’re entirely missing the point or just reading too far into my comment. My original comment is a response to a comment that calls out MPG as not a big enough benefit to justify the other sacrifices. My response was pointing out that the small MPG savings are recognized every time you drive the car while the sacrifices are less frequent. And the frequency varies greatly. The balance of the trade off will differ by buyer.
My follow up comment points out that dollar savings isn’t the only benefit to MPG improvements and that the buying decision ultimately depends on the individual buyer’s wants and needs. And often, what they want has much more influence over the buying decision.
I’m not out here arguing against SUVs, I’m simply pointing out that wagons could work for most people in most situations… but most people just want SUVs.
Then you should buy an SUV. I’m not arguing against SUVs, simply pointing out that wagons can work for most people in most scenarios, if it weren’t for the general love of SUVs.
But it's insignificant in the context of all of the other compromises you're making with the V90 over something that is larger and/or more capable. The V90 is a great looking car but it also has a lot of compromises that make it not a great choice unless you really want a wagon.
The only people who genuinely think wagons are cool are the car nerds on reddit and such. I asked my wife and her friends if they thought wagons are cool and they all just laughed at me lol.
When I bought my Saab wagon... my wife borrowed someone's soccer ball net to give me as a prank gift.
Wagons ain't ever been "cool".
Take it away, Everclear.
One of the reasons many folks weren't buying Subaru Outbacks is because they still had more of a wagony look. The latest redesign has tried to step up the more boxy shape in a similar size package.
Pretty much everyone besides car enthusiasts and Volvo diehard isn't even aware what a v70 is. They see one and probably think it belongs to an old grannie or a hipster. And they're probably right lol.
They can do other things I guess? In the meantime they eat more fuel, looks like a rectangle lifted in the sky, offer worse ergonomics as they are higher off the ground, the boot is often smaller, the rear leg room is often smaller, the boot lip is often higher which only suits quite tall people.
Overall, SUV's is a personal choice, they aren't better at all, unless you want to go on a trip once a year where you THINK you need barely any more ground clearance.
Yep, and now the majority think they need an SUV. It's crazy. Here in my city, I would estimate that 99.9% of people with SUVs didn't know that wagons offered more space, are easier to drive, feel like smaller cars to drive, are safer for other road users and pedestrians, and are generally better on fuel
We have a taycan ST as family car. I don’t get the space requirements some people have, granted I’m only 1m85, but still unless you have more then 3 kids a 5 wagon will do for most
SUVs trade depth for height in their cargo areas, which makes loading and unloading easier when you're packing it pretty full. And if you do need depth, you can drop one or both of the rear seats.
Taking turns at less than like 5 mph (so the body roll doesn’t spill their overpriced coffee) doesn’t math to a lot of us. Fine I can live with that, but the questions because they know you like cars and they want to to validate their purchase or impending purchase “why don’t you have x crosssover/suv” “what do you think about x, are they good, would you buy one?”, then getting the hard sell to the yuppie NPC lifestyle or their self justification of why they don’t do anything more with their Grand Cherokee than I do in my car (pretty sure your shitzu and 3 bags of groceries can fit in my front seat).
Man, I've done a full panic swerve lane change in my tall-ass Honda Pilot and was blown away by how composed it was. Enthusiasts massively undersell what modern independent suspension is capable of in a tall vehicle. Yeah, the body roll is unpleasant and you normally drive to avoid it, but try to put yourself in the headspace of the 99% of population that has never considered driving for enjoyment and doesn't care about 10/10ths. There aren't enough backroads and race tracks in the world to accommodate a measurable percentage of the market being enthusiast drivers, anyway.
I also have a V8 Mustang; I personally DO get it. But I also find crossovers to have legitimate redeeming characteristics, and completely non-dangerous handling - I understand why most people buy them. Hell, I bought one.
Not taking up copious amounts of space and offering a driving experience that’s not completely devoid of all enjoyment is a big plus for wagons.
Americans are just too stupid, materialistic, and boring to consider anything other than massive SUVs, and they hold on to them the same way gun owners fervently cling to their “necessary” weapons to keep their macho insecurities at bay.
The “benefits” of an SUV reflect the selfish and inconsiderate nature of the people that “need” them.
What are you comparing it to? The V90 CC (which is really the only version that's functionally available in the US) has nearly the same ground clearance as the XC60 SUV, Volvo's best-selling vehicle ever, (8.3" vs 8.5") and the same towing capacity (3500lbs). The V90 also has more cargo space (25.2 cubic feet/69 with seats folded) than the XC60 (22.4 cubic feet/63.3 with seats folded).
Where the math doesn't hold up is the price gap--the XC60 starts \~$10k cheaper (and probably more like $15k when you factor in what dealer's are actually stocking, since most people are buying off the lot).
For those of you who actually still want an affordable Wagon in the US, there are options that are about as wagon-ish as the outgoing Outback. For example: Toyota Crown Signia, Honda Prologue/Chevy Blazer EV, Kia EV6. The new Kia K4 hatchback is also basically a wagon.
Same with the Crown Signia. My neighbor has one--it's a neat car, but feels way too chunky to really be a wagon. And my insurance no longer covers Kias in my state, so that's also not an option.
Somewhat unironically this. This is why I advocate for public transit. Get all the mouthbreathers into trains and busses to free up road capacity for people who actually want to be driving.
Yes it is and yes I do. At first I didn't but I couldn't ignore the visible aura that eminates from around my being at all times and have come to embrace my superior existence.
Only a few. As far as I know, there's the Audi A6 Avant e-tron, BMW i5 Touring, Opel Astra Tourer electric and its sibling Peugeot E-308 SW and Volkswagen ID.7 Tourer.
There's also a couple of them from Chinese manufactureres like MG 5 (I think it's not sold anymore) and there's one from Nio, if I'm not mistaken.
And big roads. Don't forget cheap gas too.
I finally spent some time in Europe... Man did I love seeing all the smaller cars. There are many parts of many cities that just simply won't fit an Escalade. Not so, America. Our buildings weren't 1,000s of years old so we just tire down neighborhoods and cities to build big roads.
Which is wild to me, because they definitely have more wagons than us but they love crossovers too. I just got back from London and I saw mostly crossovers. A ton of the BZ4X too which I never seen here
I don't feel its particularly surprising that people all gravitated towards taller cars in an environment where width and length is at a premium, crossovers are just the do everything car
I may be misremembering but in case that Z4M is new, congratulations, its an insanely good car
I was talking about the North American market. Pretty much all vehicles get wider and longer every time a new generation comes out. It doesn't always happen, but it's quite common. For instance, the new Honda Passport, which is a midsize SUV, is only about an inch narrower than a fullsize pickup truck. That's insane.
It's gonna all depend on where you live, but most places it's fine. The thing is though, when it does come time to park in a space in a parking lot, your super wide vehicle becomes a nuisance. Many parking spots are a bit narrow, so all these SUV's that are quite wide make it difficult to park easily...or at least leave plenty of room on either side of the vehicle.
The European^TM deliberately selects the wagon to facilitate exercise as a lifestyle to maintain the Dolce and Gabbana model physique that all Europeans^TM have.
I love my wagon, don’t get me wrong. But I also won’t hesitate to admit that minivans are better than wagons at hauling both people and cargo. If someone could convince a maker to put a 600 hp V8 into a minivan, I’d trade AMG wagon for it in a heartbeat. (Unfortunately, I’d probably be the only person buying it, which is why no one does that.)
As for SUVs (well, crossovers), the big ones give you more room and cargo space than a wagon, which is a plus for those who actually need those things. Small crossovers, though, are more or less just wagons that someone scrunched up a little bit and then decided to call by a different name because wagons weren’t cool enough.
(Traditional body-on-frame SUVs like the 4Runner are a different niche and I don’t really think of them as competing with wagons.)
They're safer. Period. As someone who left an SUV to get back into a sedan... SUVs are flat out safer.
I like my chances in my Volvo sedan against anything... But an Escalade is going to protect its passengers better.
Now let's wait for someone to comment that they aren't safer for pedestrians. 🙄
Concern, sure. But no one thinks... "I should buy a sedan in case I hit someone walking across the street".
I don't believe for a minute that "pedestrian safety" cracks the top 10 reasons 99.99% of people choose a sedan/wagon over a SUV.
They handle worse, have less trunk space (with the same exterior length and width), are more impractical to park and drive around in thight streets, are more dangerous for pedestrians, ruin the roads more (because they weigh more), cost (usually) more, and they have way worse fuel economy. Also they look ugly as sin (but that's IMHO) and cars with taller ride heights get me carsick
The seating position is more comfortable and it’s easier to get in and out of, that’s what people care about. Half my family can’t even get into my car lol
I’ve had a couple of Miatas and a Triumph Spitfire. I know what you mean by getting into and out of cars!
That being said, the TourX is no different than any other car. Just a tiny bit of a leg squat to lift one self out of it. It’s kind of sad when that has become too much of a burden for the masses
Either they're spacious for passengers or they have a large boot. Can't have both. A Mercedes G-Class is notoriously small inside. A 1st gen Range Rover Sport is as well. Don't know about newer ones. Others are overall not as spacious as you would think. Estates generally have a slightly longer wheel base than the sedan version and also usually have a longer rear overhang that results in more room for both passengers and luggage.
The closes apples to apples comparison would be to Volvo's own SUVs.
An XC60 has 21.6 cuft of cargo with the seats up, a V90 has 19.8 cuft, and 2nd row passenger space is pretty comparable, despite the XC60 being 10 inches shorter overall.
An XC90 is exactly the same length as a V90, and has 34 cuft of cargo with the 3rd row folded (vs 19.8 in the V90).
We can debate the other differences, but the added height of SUVs is always going to beat a wagon as far as interior space goes
Which gives it a larger footprint on the road. There is a similar amount of space in my compact CUV as a typical midsize wagon, but it's easier to park because it's much shorter & easier to get into/out-of because of the height.
Car design, car classification, and car proportions are all part of the formula of a car. Modern crossovers use the same [length] x [height] x [width] = [volume] as wagons but use additional height in place of length. You'd need something like a V120 to match the interior room of an XC90 because of that.
The flip side is that crossovers usually have a slightly shorter wheelbase than the sedan version. And the space in a crossover is usually more usable than the space in a sedan when the seats are folded down, since you can fit a larger single item into a crossover.
Extra height isn't really useful in most cases. Maybe if you buy something like a TV it helps, but I'd rather have a larger floor space for my day to day. Like when I was coaching my kids soccer team, it was better to lay the PUG goals flat on the floor and the bag of balls on top rather than to try and stand either one up. And you definitely don't want to stack stuff up to where it could become a missile in a crash.
That’s all completely incorrect or irrelevant to most drivers.
The handling makes no difference to the average driver, no one is hustling these down tail of the dragon.
An XC90 is less than two inches wider than a V90, only half an inch longer, and just under a foot taller. The XC90 has more cargo capacity with the seats up and just over 13 more cubic feet with the seats down. The XC90 offers a 3rd row while the V90 does not. The XC90 is $6,000 cheaper than the V90.
Step down to the XC60 and you get a vehicle that’s about 10 inches shorter, 7 inches taller, and only down 2 cubic feet of storage space with the seats up and 3 cubic feet with the seats down. The XC60 is $17,000 cheaper than a V90.
The XC60 gets 22mpg city and 28mpg highway, the V90 gets 22 city 29 highway and the XC90 gets 22 city 27 highway.
“Normie cars” are just so universally good (at their intended purpose) these days that there’s very little to differentiate them or complain about, so reviewers have to find something.
They'll complain the steering isn't stiff enough in every review for a grocery getter until all cars long trip ride quality sucks and then complain about that. Its already happening.
It's always the same argument yet people love their SUVs.
It's perfectly fine to prefer Wagon, but to say they are worse vehicles are just non-sense.
I bought one specifically just so my older parents with bad knees can get in and out much easier than my old wagon. For that reason alone anything else is moot.
Wearing the same grey tunic with black slacks everyday is practical and keeps you warm. But everyone has different notions on what works for them.
It's more practical for older folks to have an SUV since it's higher. It's more practical for a family with 3 kids to have a van.
What you think is practical, someone else doesn't prefer. And right now, 'the market' just really prefer wagons. No use in hand wringing, it just 'is'.
Normies dont give a shit about handling
the capacity difference is negligible
the people buying new cars in the US live in the suburbs and DGAF about tight streets
no one in America gives a shit about pedestrians
4500lb vs 3500lb on a personal car means precisely dick next to 80000lb semis
they cost about the same because economy of scale has made CUVs cheap
a RAV4 gets better mileage than a V90
None of those arguments actually hold up in the real world. If they did, the SUV plague wouldn't be happening. And I say that as someone who just bought a wagon because I love them.
The majority of people in the US didn't care about handling. They are going to drive in a straight line to work, then the store, then home.
There are very few right roads and right parking spaces in most of the country, and people feel safer in bigger vehicles.
I don't like it, but I understand why cars are going that way. The only thing that really changed my opinion on small cars was going to Europe and seeing everyone driving small hatchbacks. I ended up renting a modern Yaris and really enjoyed it. Can't even get that car here anymore.
I am not a fan of the taller ride height. It's useful for fording rivers, but I don't do it so much.
I'm old enough to have driven many 1970's and 1980's land yachts - the sort which sit 3 in front and 3 in back and ludicrous trunk capacity. I miss those things. I'd replace my SUV with a modern land yacht in a heartbeat. It'd be more useful.
Sorry but what CUV offers more interior space, bigger boot, better MPG? More appeal to the average buyer is based on marketing, no car person likes the look of a raised rectangle box called an CUV.
This is crushing and sad. The reality that Volvo, of all the automakers, will bail on wagons just proves the decline of society. Wagons are so practical, drive so much better than SUVs, and let's be real about how often people are actually towing if they even are.
And blame the fact that you could only custom order the non-Cross Country versions in the US (dealers didn’t stock them), and that people are (rightfully) skeptical of the longevity of a supercharged, turbocharged, and hybridized 4-cylinder. I know the newer drivetrains aren’t twincharged, but the point remains.
There is a reason every manufacturer only stocks the all-terrain/cc because its what sells, do you seriously think mercedes, volvo, and audi are all in a conspiracy for this
What? No, I don’t think that, and I never suggested that I do. I think Volvo, like MBZ and Audi, knew the non-CC V90 would be a niche car. No conspiracy here. The automakers are in business to make money.
Ah my bad, I've met folks here who genuinely think all these manufacturers discontinued the non-cc and moved up trims so that they could justify killing of wagons like its some conspiracy, thought you were one of those
Yeah the twin charged nature of these engines was the ultimate reason I dropped considering one of these for our family vehicle. They're already so expensive to purchase at msrp and to throw that unreliability uncertainty (certainty) on top of it was a bridge too far.
I know emission restrictions pushed us here but if there are others like me, automakers can't expect folks to pay $50k+ for a car that's overly complex and expensive to buy & maintain for the sake of a few mpg - especially for a vehicle that isn't a massive hulking suv.
TO be fair almost all of them are T5s and T6s, I dont think I have ever seen a T8 V90 stateside. The T5 base motor with FWD is probably the way to go, basic drivetrain that was well sorted by the time we got them. Most of the complaints I see are people bitching about the infotainment updates...
I know, right? That's basically the automotive equivalent of Foie Gras production. When I first read about the turbo and supercharged engine, I could hear the gaskets splitting and the exhaust leaks squealing through the pages of my car magazine!
I love and want a V90, but for 70k new the fact that it was a FWD 4cyl is comical. Like the FWD T5s will hold up better than the T6 AWD counterparts but man in that segment you really need something more compelling
Yeah I never understood the price on this car. It was about twice the price of my TourX. Sure the interior is 'nicer, ' but I'm not sure it's a $30-35k improvement.
nowhere near. my mom owns one and i was genuinely surprised by how 'whatever' the interior is. feels like if there was a step between toyota and lexus for interior quality
Seriously. Reading these comments I wonder if any of them have driven this thing. The V90 sucks to drive. The engine feels too weak to pull the thing and yes you literally feel like you're getting pulled due to the length and that FWD.
And it's a super AND turbocharged engine. Nobody wants to pay to maintenance or repair that.
The SPA chassis drivetrain options are just so boring at the low end, and the T8s were so extremely expensive and kinda shaky especially when they launched. Volvo people DO buy for the drivetrain and having a meh 4cyl in a market saturated with meh 4cyls really didnt do them any favors with the enthusiast crowd.
I dont mind how slow they are, I drive a V70 R-Design which they giga-ruined for the US market by giving it the 3.2 i6 and FWD which makes all of about 200HP. But I got mine 11 years after new
For $70k I’m spending the extra $7k and getting an E450 All-Terrain. Better powertrain, quicker, probably a nicer interior and subjectively looks much better to me.
They barely depreciate at all compared to the sedans though, at least around me. Seems like they’re double the price and there are rarely any up for sale.
The V90 depreciates less and yet the V90 always cost way more to lease than the S90 because the S90 always had sweet subsidized lease specials. If Volvo wanted to move more V90s they could have offered some reasonable leases on them!
The cheapest ones in my area area are still $30k+ for 5-7 year old ones. And there's only 3 of those within a 200 mile radius of me (and they're from Carvana and Carmax, so who knows what condition they're actually in). There's 3 new ones for 60-70k plus. Not a lot of option. We're drowning in XC60's around here, though.
Volvo never sent any of these to any dealers. Finding one just to test drive has been such a headache (around 2019-2020 for me, haven't checked since as we bought a different car). And I'm not blind ordering something this expensive.
Another annoying finger pointing problem where manufacturers blame us for not buying them, but never made them readily available to try/buy. This is coming from someone who was seriously in the market for one.
And before commenters blame dealers, save your breath. I'd bet that Volvo, like 90% of other manufacturers, handle inventory stock and distribution at the corporate level. Very few manufacturers actually have dealers order their own inventory these days. Manufacturers pick what to distribute out based on their market analysis, their analysis sucks, and dealers just get what they get.
Also doesn’t help that they treat them like pirate treasure if they do end up with one. Oh that one quirky car guy will pay full price easily let’s wait for him. I’ve never been offered a discount on a wagon but you mostly can get them easily or incentives on the similar level SUV. That and you don’t have to deal with the dealer acting like an old man on Craigslist who knows what he’s got.
Aren’t dealers required to have at least one of each model for test drives? And if you like it you just order your own specification? Are US dealers different?
5 dealerships in the Houston area for me. There is ONE V90 CC among all of them. That's it. Yet there's about 150+ of XC90's across all of them.
Obviously, it would have been better to check a few months ago since this could be just the result of them winding down the production already, but we'll never know. But given my awful experience for months when I was in the market and what it looks like now, I'll bet availability probably never improved.
Good to hear your area has availability though. If only corporate could have maybe thought 3 dozen in one area and 1 in another is a bit imbalanced and adjusted distribution....but it's not like studying and adjusting distribution is part of their job /s
This was my experience with all of the salespeople too. They told me to buy an S90 and then come trade in when they got more V90's in. Or an S60 and trade in when V60's came in.
Absolutely asinine suggestion. The amount of depreciation on Volvo's is huge and I would be digging myself out of that hole for years if I did that. Nobody at any other brand dealership - not even Nissan - would suggest that. You would never be able to make the second deal work with the customer with so much negative equity....unless you have dumb brand loyal customers with more money than sense
The only reason I got my V60 was my local dealer ordering it as a dealership loaner car and I bought it in the pandemic when they had no use for a loaner car. Otherwise you had to special order any V60/90 for the most part. They occasionally had a few V90 Cross Country’s but never any non CC ones on the lot
If enough people showed interest in them, dealerships would order them. But dealers aren't going to order a car they think no one will buy. It's somewhat of a chicken-and-egg situation.
My father owned 2 V90CC's back to back after an XC90 . It was a great car, way better feeling and looking than the XC90. I am genuinely sad its ending production.
The S90 is rare as hen's teeth. It made sense when it was cheaper than its full-size competitors. It's a hard sell when it costs the same as an A6, 5-series, or E-class.
Yeah, it was always kind of weird that they went from having one (pretty popular) wagon model with the XC70 (which in 2016, was $38k--about $50k in today's dollars), to having two models (the V60 and V90), especially since those models weren't all that different (the V60 is \~3 inches shorter than the XC70, and the V90 is \~3 inches longer. The V90 comes stock with slightly more premium features, but it's not really (imo, and I think the opinion of many buyers) $10k more premium--plus it's a little bit less efficient due to the extra size.
Volvo has a dedicated segment of people who buy their wagons--and I think having one really good model in that segment makes sense for them. Two was always a little weird.
I wish the wagons we have available in the U.S. weren't just European. Their maintenance expenses and complexity eas their Achilles heel (price tag too)
"Volvo CEO Jim Rowan told Autocar that the last V90 will be assembled in September, and he hinted that the V60 won’t be renewed either once its time comes to an end."
That's why the V90 died- it costs the same as the E class, which is insane cause having just cross shopped them the E class is WAY nicer. That's why there's an E class parked in front of my house rn even though I grew up always having volvos
Also the Signia is $55k with any options, ANC pumped into the cabin and it still has atrocious road noise. Mercedes still makes wagons, I think the E class, but they are rare.
The Crown Signia doesn't offer any options packages, save for the Advanced Tech Package only offered on the top of the line Limited trim. Sure, there are your basic accessory items that you can add on for both trims, but those are your run-of-the-mill floor mats, cargo tote, and other ticky-tack add-ons. Point being, the base XLE is $46k, while the top of the line Limited trim is $50k-$52k. The only way it can hit $55k is if your dealer adds on every little accessory item onto the Limited trim. You can easily have an XLE far below $50k.
I’m talking OTD so starting MSRP is $44k, and after $2k freight, $500-900 of dealer fees, taxes, man you’re easily at $50k. My point being, it’s not much car for the money, plus it’s a limited run I think of two years and they’re barely available
What a shame. The V60 is the only car on my radar to replace my current vehicle. The only reason i am not pulling the trigger is because they are too $$$ for what they are. So i guess not that much of a shame.
G'dangit. Always loved the non-Cross Country V90, but even it's used equivalent was just out of my price range, even compared to an E class of comparable mileage albeit older years.
I blame the Germans. They just have the reputation for making solid luxurious sedans for so many years that people have gotten used to them. Even though they have been full and boring for years now.
Is it because the generation of people who buy suv's have terrible lowerbacks and rather slide into a car instead of kneeling to get inside/outside one?
When I was shopping it was priced above very well optioned SUVs with better and larger drivetrains. As much as I liked the outside design, BMW and Mercedes 6 cylinder options were far better to drive as well.
I agree with all of that but I still just bought one anyway. The Mercedes was so overstyled inside and out and the X5 is everywhere around here so it just called to me.
The reality is even if you can afford one, it doesn't make sense to buy one in most countries where your main mobility transport is a car. The target market for wagons is and will always be families, no other consumer will spend 70k+ on such vehicle with more luxurious suvs and even sports cars available.
Affordability aside, when you choose a wagon as a family your trade off is more performance, trunk size and (sometimes) sleeker design over increased visibility, crash safety and ride quality.
You can see why most families and 1 car only people choose SUVs over anything else really when you're in the roads alongside other massive SUVs.
Next fad will probably be blinged up armoured MRAP type SUVs - keep your child safe to and from school in the new Apocalypse SUV - body resistant to 50 BMG fire, V shaped underbody to divert explosive blasts, for maximum safety ask your dealership about our children's apocalypse personal protection package - military grade helmet (visor optional), plate carrier, elbow pads, kneepads and more....
once North America and Europe become less safe I don't see this out of the realm of possibility
I have family in Latin America and Asia and in some of their countries (which were historically safe despite the economy) it's already become standard to get your econobox CRV and RAV4 type cars armored due to gunpoint carjacking. I'm not kidding.
I think having a 4 cylinder hybrid engine while being sold as a premium car turned away a lot of potential buyers. It might have sold well if they made it less luxurious and sold it at the same price range as a Honda Accord.
The buyer base for high-end wagons is niche but old-money customers. They pay top dollar and definitely want at least a 6-cylinder at that price point.
The hybrid gets pretty awful MPGs for a brand new hybrid too. It's got a lot of power, but I bet most hybrid buyers don't really care too much about that and would rather have a more fuel efficient vehicle. Adding to that the people who care about power generally don't care hybrids. So it's in a weird place really..
Maybe because they did not make a new design in several years? Most carmakers change it up after 6 years, and I guess current owners are still living nicely with what they have as they were kinda reliable
The station wagon is dead. We were all raised to think that minivans and station wagons were for dorks but somehow SUVs are cool. I think wagons are cool, but also don't have the money for $60k - $75k imported wagon that tariffs are going to make incredibly expensive to maintain.
Really wanted a V90 years ago but this was the family vehicle and my wife wanted a practical reason why we would spend the exact same money on the V90 or XC90. She could see if the V90 was less expensive, but it wasn't it was the same price as the SUV with less room.
And the fuel economy was also the same and slightly better on the bigger SUV. 26 mpg on the AWD XC90 vs 25 mpg on the AWD V90.
> Wagons are usually lighter, cheaper, and more efficient.
Writer clearly has no clue what they're talking about. The Volvo wagon is the same price (if not more expensive), same fuel economy. The wagon may weigh less but if it doesn't translate to better fuel economy, buyers don't care. Nobody is tracking their family hauler.
Honestly, Volvo pulling the plug on the V90 makes sense. Hardly anyone was buying them compared to the XC90, and the numbers back it up. You get less interior space, no third row, and mpg that isn’t really better than the SUV. For roughly the same money, the XC90 gives you more versatility and more space. The V90 looks cool if you’re into wagons, but for most people it was a worse deal all around. Both drive pretty terribly anyways.
Estates in general, no? It’s sad man, the V90 is one of the sexiest estates in existence. Had a V70 myself, not a volvo guy, but I loved that car to bits.
I was in the market for one of these earlier this year. Tell me why I couldn't get a T8 version of it, but I could get a T8 V60, but then that V60 (even in the top spec) didn't come with the same interior features of a V90? Relatively "basic" luxury vehicle features like ventilated seats were not an option for the top-spec V60 T8. To top it off, you can't get the T8 in either wagons' Cross Country trim at all for some reason.
I decided I would be okay with an S90, but then had such a stupid experience at the dealership that I just abandoned it altogether for another Lexus. I do still really want one of these Volvo wagons at some point, though.
So I’m definitely not an SUV guy but there is no question in my mind that they’re simply more comfortable for most people, myself included. I prefer to drive my sedan, but simply getting in and out of a low car is infinitely less comfortable than hopping into an suv. And when every other car on the road is an suv it gets old not being able to see over and around other automobiles.
there really isn't a good reason to get one unless you're an audiophile or just want something unique in the sea of german cars. their HK and Bowers systems are some of the best in the entire industry. But the cars are complicated, not reliable, sparse dealer network, not sporty at all.
i loved the xc60 rental i had in europe on vacation. it was a t8 hybrid. but after reading more about them i would never want to own it.
It was rumored a while ago that both the V90 and V60 were to be replaced with a single model inspired by the 2021 Recharge Concept. I wonder if that's still happening now that they're pivoting away from their all-EV plans.
I've decided that if I get another Volvo it'll be something closer to classic (like an 850) anyway.
Guess it would be under the V70/S70 moniker? Also a bit surprised by this news because Volvo announced last year that they are bringing back the V60/V70 in the UK at least and makes me wonder if this is US only.
During that time they were unavailable in the UK, the V60 CC and V90 CC were still on sale in the US. The V90 is done-done in all markets though in September.
I think if they came out with a new "V60 CC-like vehicle", it would potentially still be in the cards for us. The V60 CC continues to persist in our market despite its slow sales. 2,000 to 3,000 sales per year is absolutely nowhere near "a lot" but it is potentially enough for "halo car" status in our market.
Here's the thing, i never, ever, ever see commercials for sedans or wagons. Every commercial is SUVs for almost all brands. How do they expect people to buy these if they make no effort to advertise.
SUVs have more space than equivalent wagons. Wagons are just as pointless as sedans for anyone who is looking to maximize utility out of their appliance.
Volvo could make more reliable vehicles that are more competitive too. They haven't done much to move the needle for what people want for as long as I remember. They've just existed in their niche. Nice cars, a great alternative to other options in that price range but I always feel like there's a better option unless you wanted a wagon, that was basically what set them apart from other brands
Blame the general populace for only wanting SUVs. I drive a C63 coupe and you can't see anything on the road anymore since everyone is in an SUV or massive truck.
I love my coupe but its becoming a liability on long drives with the wife. Probably selling it after this year and buying an X6M or GLE 63.
StrangeSmellz@reddit
Actually, blame ppl not buying them. Volvo likes to make money, no buy, no money.
dcux@reddit
Blame the price tag. Sure, other vehicles in the price range sell well, but a sedan isn't exactly selling well for any brand, much less a $70k sedan with SUV proportions (minus the height).
NotPumba420@reddit
The SUVs are even more overpriced
Titan0917@reddit
The V90 is more expensive than the XC60 and XC90……
lobolaw7@reddit
Which are two of the most overpriced SUVs in its class
StrangeSmellz@reddit
Why can't I have everything for $25 dollars?
dcux@reddit
If you're Volvo, you're looking at a market segment that's been disappearing for decades, and not offering a compelling reason to spend premium money for that offering.
Other-Educator-9399@reddit
Yeah, their target market has been people who are willing to pay luxury prices for a kinda/sorta luxury-adjacent (think: Swedish equivalent of Buick) where the main selling points are the safety technologies and the heavy, tank-like feel.
Firepower01@reddit
I'd argue one of the main selling points in a Volvo is build quality. They feel sturdy, and the materials used are noticeably higher quality than most American and Japanese vehicles.
Other-Educator-9399@reddit
The newer ones, yes. Their interiors are very solidly crafted and high quality, but the old ones, like the 240 series in the 80's had lots of interior parts that randomly fell off and seats that ripped.
mikePTH@reddit
Don’t you bad mouth the 240 series. I won’t stand for it.
Other-Educator-9399@reddit
I came home from the hospital in one when I was born and I rode in it for the first 10 years of my life. My parents told me it was constantly in and out of the repair shop and I remember the interior falling apart. It was so slow, it could barely make it over the Grapevine or Donner Pass without overheating.
Granted, it spent its life in 3 of the hottest, sunniest cities in the US (Las Vegas, Fresno, Sacramento). The interior was probably designed to withstand sun and heat in places like Stockholm, Gothenburg, and Upsala.
mikePTH@reddit
Your parents car deserved better. A well maintained 240 is incredible durable, in and out. My 1975 wagon interior is holding up better than most cars made in the 2000's despite being 25 years older, and the chassis is as rugged and as complicated as a screwdriver.
The 240 is one of the most reliable cars ever built, plus the turbo versions were decent performers from the factory and took to mods VERY well. My old 1984 242TIC made like 275hp with basic mods and it's easy to make those things handle well. It was a riot of a car.
The motors are simple and bulletproof, and the 16V head flows like a Honda head if you want to get crazy.
Gregarious_Raconteur@reddit
To be fair, while the redblocks are phenomenal engines, the Renault V6's that could be optioned were awful. Also, some mid 80's models had a lot of issues with wiring harness insulation rot.
mikePTH@reddit
No problems here if you want to shit-talk the PRV V6 or the biodegradable engine harnesses on those particular cars, but to call the entire 200 series unreliable is preposterous. It's the Swedish Civic.
FoofaFighters@reddit
They're boxy, but they're good.
stav_and_nick@reddit
Which is the big generational divide; younger people think of Volvo as luxury, but older people don't, so the perception is a bit odd
The XC90 is probably my favourite luxury SUV tho. it's just so nice
SigmaBallsLol@reddit
yeah when I was a teen, one of my friends drove their family's hand me down shitbox, an 80s Volvo. I could tell even then it wasn't nice, even for an old ass car.
I didn't know Volvo was supposed to be a nice brand until like 10 years later.
Gregarious_Raconteur@reddit
Volvo arguably started moving upmarket in the 80's. The 200 series was their economy line, and the 700/900 series were notably nicer.
I have both an 87 volvo and a nicely-optioned GM g-body of the same year. The volvo is significantly nicer in terms of build quality and fit and finish.
totpot@reddit
Volvo didn't try to become a luxury brand until Ford bought them and lumped them into their luxury brand group. Then when Geely bought them, they really went upscale.
lumpialarry@reddit
I think it as the exact opposite. The the last "solidly build, infinity reliable" Volvos were the 700-series. Everything thing since then has been at best "Slightly above average" to "bad" depending on the model.
Pryffandis@reddit
They're not competing against American and Japanese vehicles, for the most part, though. They're slotted squarely against the Germans while having worse reliability, worse powertrains, and a worse dealership network.
cubs223425@reddit
Same as a few others. They're asking people to spend $10K more than a car's worth, then canceling the car when people don't do it.
woodsides@reddit
Luxury brands are doing better than ever. It's Volvo that refused to change to cater to customer demands.
frankchn@reddit
They are changing — they have canned the V90 and will happily sell the XC90.
charmanderSosa@reddit
That’s not the point. In the US you used to at least have options for Wagons, even in the 90s and 2000s you had Volvo and Subaru making wagons, priced very similar. When Volvo went upscale in like 2016 they kind of abounded all the buyers who cross shopped Outback’s with Volvos.
You can buy a new Outback for literally half a new V90.
bindermichi@reddit
It‘s not about having a cheap car, but prices for Volvos are just excessive for what you get.
They‘re just like Audi in that you can get an equally quality car with very similar specs for a lot less money. Plus their depreciation is worse than Audi.
Last time I was shopping for a V90 they wanted around 90k for the spec I was interested in. 70k would have been absolutely fine fine car, but not 90k.
Solid-Tumbleweed-981@reddit
100% this... I looked at the 60 and 90... The price point is bonkers and the interior is trash for the price point
Most of them don't even have rear seat vents... I looked for used. But I did test drive new bc it was easier to get a feeling first. I was extremely disappointed.
Ithrazel@reddit
V90 is not a sedan
Bazza79@reddit
That would be the S90.
dcux@reddit
Yeah, I understand that. Hence the "sedan with SUV proportions."
Wagons haven't been a big market in the US for a long time, but my point was that even sedans have mostly disappeared. SUVs and CUVs are dominant.
ThatGuyFromCanadia@reddit
German wagons have been selling very well in the USA the last couple of years
RichardNixon345@reddit
12 - no, 13 units per month!
oioioiyacunt@reddit
That's a bakers dozen!
I_AM_FERROUS_MAN@reddit
I know this is only a tangentially related point, but the seeming relentless march of the auto industry towards a 30 year loan for cars might be a sign of a big problem with the market.
But maybe I'm just a poor idiot that makes over 6 figures, but still feels poor in this economy.
MRDR1NL@reddit
Here in Europe almost nobody loans for cars. We either lease or drive old cars. Only old people buy new cars here. And they all buy SUVs because it's easy to get in and out. Easy on their weak old backs.
george-its-james@reddit
Dude if you're making more than a million a year and still feel poor, you severely need either a reality check or an accountant
CaptFrankWhite@reddit
While technically over 6 figures, Ferrous Man would have likely said over 7 figures if they made $1,000,000+ annually.
dcux@reddit
Last car I bought was over a decade ago. Yeah, I bought new, but it's been worth it. Paid under $30k. Can't imagine budgeting $50-70k for a new car.
onlyranchmefries@reddit
I make close to six figures in the rural Midwest and I'm not sure how people do it either. My fusion was 30k when I bought it and I couldn't imagine spending 50k or more on a car.
TheKingOfBreadstix@reddit
I hear ya, ferrous man. All these people (let’s face it, boomers) with their “juSt cUt bAcK oN thE twEnTy doLlAr avOcaDo toAsT” nonsense can take a hike.
bschmidt25@reddit
At $70k I also don’t want a 4 banger.
Blazarnova@reddit
Wait honestly tho and after a while they changed the back seats from leather to fabric… the cost cutting was bad too
theNightblade@reddit
that's a complicated way to say 'wagon'
MyNameWouldntFi@reddit
Wagons aren't a real thing and you're not allowed to mention them anymore
xqxcpa@reddit
Eh, I went with a 2020 V60 CC and wish I had chosen the Alltrack. It's been a fine car in that it's comfortable to drive for extended periods and has never left me stranded. But the transmission sucks, the visibility sucks, and it's insanely heavy. I get 20mpg and eat through expensive pads and rotors like crazy.
The Alltrack feels so much smaller and lighter to drive, and you can get a manual.
RAMBIGHORNY@reddit
Too much money for such a little engine. MB and Audi have 6s for the same money
icemonsoon@reddit
Blame volvo for making cars that live forever
Pyrhhus@reddit
They just don't stack up against the competition. I love wagons, and just recently bought one. But I ended up with a Mercedes E400 wagon instead of a V90 cause its about the same price and just better in every way.
Why would I ever buy the Volvo when the Merc is way faster, more efficient, more reliable, cheaper to maintain, and way more comfortable and better equipped?
StonedBooty@reddit
Volvo interiors are top notch, build quality is the same. Volvo focuses on safety, not gimmicky technology. They don’t cut costs for safety, and when you buy a Volvo it’s the safest car on the road.
I’m not sure where you are getting costs are higher to maintain Volvo, Mercedes charges more per hour for shop work and their parts as a whole cost more. Care to post a link showing this?
Pyrhhus@reddit
To be fair I was thinking about maintenance costs in the context of me doing 99% of work myself. And while MB parts are slightly more expensive, the E400 I got has a much simpler powertrain than most V90 options and just has less shit to be maintained. No hybrid system, no twincharge insanity, just a plain old TTV6- and one with a reputation for being pretty much bulletproof at that. Aside from some of the luxury farkles its a much more traditional design that's easier for a shade tree mechanic to DIY.
As for the interior, Volvo's build quality was fantastic and I definitely never meant to denigrate it; I just found the Merc to be a lot more comfortable and ergonomic, and the sound system sounded a lot better.
HotDoggin17@reddit
I really wanted a V90, but the motor choices were terrible. No surprise that cross shopping led people to other options.
Pyrhhus@reddit
Especially when the most direct competition had the twin turbo M276, which is an absolutely fantastic motor. Efficient, smooth, powerful, and pretty damn bulletproof. Parts are even pretty cheap for it cause its used in everything from sports cars to sprinter vans.
5tudent_Loans@reddit
Volvos are severely overpriced for what they are. Their price points get absolutely obliterated when you ask yourself, what other luxury can I get for this price (and usually more power). OR how much more function can I get for this price with a “budget brand” given they pretty much only offer low powered 4 cylinders.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
What’s PPL meaning ?
Capri280@reddit
Short for people
HydroMagnet@reddit
But why are these people short?
Starbuckshakur@reddit
Poor childhood nutrition.
bikedork5000@reddit
Push pull legs. Classic workout split.
2AXP21@reddit
The best
chibicascade2@reddit
People
aembleton@reddit
people
Capri280@reddit
Short for people
TheGuyDoug@reddit
NO
Semantics really, whats your point here? Of course the blame is on people for not buying wagons...because they buy SUVs instead.
StrangeSmellz@reddit
My point is the market dictates what companies produce. They like making money, if sedans sold well they would have made all sedans. There isent some cabal trying to ax sedans.
TheGuyDoug@reddit
Does anyone try to argue otherwise?
dreamingtree1855@reddit
As someone who bought a V90 new I will admit people not buying them was part of the appeal ;)
MartiniPolice21@reddit
I will lie some of the blame on manufacturers for turning every single one of their cars into Crossover SUVs; even when people liked Hatchbacks, it's not like they only ever sold hatchback models.
ericgallant24@reddit
Yeah, manufacturers definitely pushed hard toward SUVs even when people were buying smaller cars. It's like they decided for us what we should want instead of just giving options. Now finding a decent hatchback or wagon is actually tough
Kentx51@reddit
Yeah, kinda makes me wonder if Volvo saw a jump in SUV sales or is the SUV considered the boogie man of wagons and vans.
Bradymyhero@reddit
Volvo CUVs are some of the most NPC vehicles around. Guaranteed to be clueless and driving slow
omgasnake@reddit
V90 is one of the more historic and compelling wagons in modern times. If Volvo couldn’t even make the finance math work out, maybe it’s time to look in the mirror on wagons. I don’t think complaining about SUVs is the right way to go about it.
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
BMW , Mercedes, Volkswagen are all doing great in the wagon segment.
Its time for the SUV hoax to end. Driving a shitty handling car with bad economy, safety and handling because you are afraid in traffic ( yup - researcher indicates this) or because you want to look adventurous is just sad.
historicusXIII@reddit
Those brands' wagon sales are all falling back as well.
HalfFrozenSpeedos@reddit
Blame the 90s ford explorer and to a lesser extent the XJ Cherokee
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
Indeed. Though the explorer’s exploding tires should have shown the world that a car that is build to handle bad might not be the best idea.
hutacars@reddit
The Explorer proved feeling safe > being safe. Stats are for nerds.
FiveAlarmDogParty@reddit
Kinda stinks in America we can only get wagons from luxury auto makers - I think if Ford/Chevy/Kia/Hyundai were to make one they may catch on. I would love a Passat wagon
omgasnake@reddit
Buick had a very very compelling one, the Regal, and it did abysmally. I know there’s a thousand reasons why that would be, but the facts remain.
gor134@reddit
TBF the late Regal was only on sale for like 2 years with minimal marketing, including an anti-sedan commercial that seemingly recommended people to buy Buick crossovers over their sedans, and was discontinued when GM sold off Opel to PSA.
q0vneob@reddit
I loved that era of Buick marketing being commercials with a bunch of people surprised their friend would buy a Buick. Idk what they thought they we're going for, but it was perfect.
Pyrhhus@reddit
That's because Buick spent a solid 25 years developing a reputation for inefficient, unreliable (except for anything with the 3800), uncomfortable, ugly cars driven by senile old fucks.
The Regal was a nice car but it was way too little way too late to get anyone to give a Buick a chance
RiftHunter4@reddit
Most vehicle designs besides SUV's and trucks are dead until the US fixes its economy. And that will never happen, so they are probably just dead. You can't have a variety of models and manufacturers when only one demographic is buying cars. Until younger buyers get money to buy cars, we are stuck with SUV's. Because thats all retirees and aging parents want.
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
Nobody wants them. Enthusiasts don't actually buy them when they exist in sufficient numbers to keep them around. VW tried with the Golf alltrack, Buick tried with the tourx which isn't really a luxury car any more than a high trim level Accord is.
People who want more space than a sedan don't want to bend down to get stuff in and out of the vehicle or to get in and out of the car. And they largely do not give a shit about driving dynamics.
JonFrost@reddit
The only way people "cash go about it" is buying them but they don't
Drunken_Hamster@reddit
I wish all SUV and appliance car meatriders a very happy room temperature challenge.
dollarnine9@reddit
Wagons & Minivans >
strongmanass@reddit
Hope everyone had a good long weekend (non-US probably had just a regular weekend). Anyway here's your daily article and argument about why consumers are fat, lazy morons who refuse to recognize the superiority of the wagon. Enjoy.
owleaf@reddit
Brown manuelle miat wagonne
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
Seats less people, less ground clearance, less towing capacity, less interior volume. And gets what like 2 MPG better than a Ford Explorer lol
The math doesn’t math for wagons.
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
2 MPG more may be small, but is significant when considering it’s applicable every time you drive the vehicle, where ground clearance, towing capacity, and interior space are most likely only relevant a few times a year.
Emotional_Height_247@reddit
If you have a car for 200,000 miles, comparing 27mpg to 25mpg saves you all of 600 gallons over the 20 years or whatever it takes you to get that.
We're talking less than $10 per month....
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
There are more reasons why MPG matters than just monetary savings. But if monetary savings is important to you, I dig further into it in one of my other follow up comments.
It ultimately comes down to preference. Wagons could work very well for the majority of people in most scenarios, but people want SUVs. And that’s fine.
Emotional_Height_247@reddit
Brother I'm not going to get into the environmental considerations about 2 MPG with a guy who has a Challenger in his garage 😆😆😆😆😆
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
Me driving a Challenger does not change the fact that other people often make buying decisions based on emissions.
Emotional_Height_247@reddit
"No, you don't understand! It's okay that I personally get 15mpg worse than I should - you should feel so awful about getting 2mpg worse getting an SUV over a wagon that you never even shop for an SUV!"
yeah buddy, okay whatever
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
Lmao that’s not even close to what I’m saying. I’m talking about buyers in general and you’re projecting some environment-hating persona on me.
Maybe you would change your tune if I updated my flair to mention that my entire household is carbon neutral, that I live in a certified passive house, and that I add more power back into the grid than I consume thanks to the solar panels on my roof. But keep painting with those broad strokes, you disingenuous twat. This is a car subreddit, after all.
Emotional_Height_247@reddit
Got it, so you aren't a buyer in general. SUV buyers are.
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
I was talking about market/buyer trends at a macro level. You’re talking about the car in my personal garage and how that supposedly invalidates what I have to say about the market at the macro level.
Not sure why this needs to be so contentious.
Emotional_Height_247@reddit
If Dodge made one (1 single) Challenger, and it was for you, you'd have a point.
But they didn't, Challengers also exist on the macro level.
Quit crying about 2 mpg until you clean your own shit up
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
Again, why so contentious and aggressive?
When did I complain about environmental impact? I didn’t. I simply pointed out that there are more benefits to fuel efficiency than monetary savings alone.
But this has been a very odd string of interactions. It doesn’t seem like we’re going to resolve anything here, and I’m not going to continue an increasingly toxic conversation for the sport of it. Have a good one.
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
Except that some of those may be non-starters for the entire segment.
We tow a boat and snowmobile trailer. Wagons haven’t been able to compete in that since the days of the Buick Roadmaster/Caprice.
Emotional_Height_247@reddit
Google tells me the V90 can pull 3500lbs, the same as my Escape. We pull an 18' pontoon about 4 times a week over the summer lol
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
“Can” and “should” are 2 different things. Fiberglass boats and enclosed trailers get real heavy. A V90 would have half the liftgate underwater trying to launch a boat at some of the ramps we visit lol.
Emotional_Height_247@reddit
Yeah ground clearance is one thing.
But the way I see it, that V90 has 295hp and 310lb-ft peak torque, my Escape around the same... literally 50% more than the V6 GMT800's from when I was growing up and nobody bats an eye when a cateye backs in a pontoon. Fuckin send it brotha.
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
Well towing isn’t all about getting something moving, it’s also about having the safety to stop the load and handle it in hazardous situations as well.
random352486@reddit
That's why it's certified to tow 4800lbs in the EU, because it can stop said load.
Titan0917@reddit
EU tow ratings are done for different standards than US tow ratings.
Emotional_Height_247@reddit
I promise you a car from this century brakes and handles better than anything pre-9/11 😆 These things aren't rolling around with rear drums
HalfFrozenSpeedos@reddit
"You NEED a specialist TOW vehicle to move horses, a "normal vehicle " is unsafe and just won't manage " - cue old hands muttering about towing horse boxes for years on end without any issues behind a 1970s/80s/90s family 2wd wagon
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
If you want to go tow a 6000lb camper with a 2025 Volvo wagon be my guest. I’d take the v6 Silverado 10/10 times in that use case lol
Emotional_Height_247@reddit
Well of course don't pull almost double the rated max haha, this thread started with you baulking at 3500 lmao
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
I’m just saying it’s a pretty well-accepted that you don’t want to be running at your max rated tow spec as baseline.
Do you need a 3500 class to tow your camper or boat? No. But I wouldn’t get a V90 for frequent towing expeditions at 3500lbs.
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
If you have to tow things regularly, then yes you should absolutely buy something that can handle it. In no way was I saying the opposite.
RedAero@reddit
You have a boat and a snowmobile and only one car?
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
1 car, 1 SUV.
BorysBe@reddit
People buy (serious) cars for functionality in the first place, then for the look/feel. MPG is at best 3rd factor but way behind. I know people who drive heavy SUVs to kindergarten and back (10miles each day).
If you're looking for a MPG efficient car you get a small vehicle, not V90.
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
Very true. My call out of MPG was in direct response to the prior commenter.
JournalistExpress292@reddit
It’s more effort to figure out needing the extra interior space a few times a year - thank it is making up the money in covering the extra fuel costs
45 miles commute divided by 18 MPG = 2.5 gallons 45 miles commute divided by 20 MPG =2.25 gallons
.25 gallons * 365 days =91.25 gallons
At $4.5 per gallon that’s ~$411 in fuel costs annually or ~$35 month.
hutacars@reddit
This is why so many Americans are poor… they consider a recurring monthly $35 expense to be “nothing.” How about they buy the smaller car, and then for just $20/mo, I’ll give them tips on how to load it properly?
JournalistExpress292@reddit
Because you’re already spending thousands of dollars a month on a vehicle so $35 is absolutely nothing compared to it.
hutacars@reddit
That’s a common financial fallacy though. The cost of one item shouldn’t impact what you’re willing to pay for a separate item. $35 is $35 no matter how it’s used. The fact that you choose to also spend thousands on a car doesn’t change that. Again, Americans falling for this fallacy is what keeps so many poor!
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
Effort (subjective) and dollars spent (objective) is an interesting comparison, and the weighting will likely change for different people.
MPG savings is also more than just about money.
But if we are talking money, I would suggest adding in purchase price. My wagon cost me $30k. The starting MSRP for the base Ford Explorer that same year was $2-3k more. But if we’re just talking V90s, we can still compare it to SUVs in the luxury segment. But in that segment, money becomes less of an issue.
On the cargo space, the V90 had essentially the same cargo volume as a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and my Buick wagon has even more than the Jeep.
Ultimately it comes down to some objective and a lot of subjective things, including the fact that Americans tend to like sitting up higher even if it’s not objectively logical. I’m not arguing that. I am pointing out that I think wagons would objectively be a logical choice and work for most people in most situations, they’re simply considered gauche these days.
JournalistExpress292@reddit
Yea with SUVs the higher seating position is helpful
HalfFrozenSpeedos@reddit
SUVs are basically automotive high chairs with a horn instead of a rattle and frequently worse tantrums from the SUV occupant
GrannyBandit@reddit
Lmao you must be young. I drive a V90 and my wife drives a Telluride. We drive three hours to the family cabin and back every weekend in the summer. Both vehicles fit what we need to bring just fine (kid, dog, groceries, cooler).
Guess which one we take 9/10 times? The Telluride. Despite being almost the same length and width, the Telluride is easier to load the kid and there's more space to reach back and hand a snack to the kid and whatnot. I used to have a 2019 Silverado and that was even better for weekend trips, but I wanted to try the V90 for a few years.
That being said I love driving the V90 way more, but there's a limit to it's practicality in my situation.
HalfFrozenSpeedos@reddit
Nah I'm not young, my body severely makes that obvious daily, I just have a severe dislike of SUVs, the danger they place pedestrians - particularly children in, the way they impair everyone else's visibility resulting in arms race of increasingly tall and wide vehicles
GrannyBandit@reddit
Yeah I agree with that, but calling them adult high chairs is a cynical viewpoint for people driving them in the US. It's like 90% of new cars for sale. There's a huge advantage to having a higher line of sight. It was a huge adjustment for me going from the trucks/SUVs I've driven for the last 20 years to a wagon.
People love the visibility for good reasons. Federal regs and manufacturer choices have thrust this on the US. It's unfair to judge people for driving them.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Even less--average cost of gas in the US last year was only $3.30.
Previous_Composer934@reddit
87 vs 93
coherent-rambling@reddit
2 MPG applied across all the vehicles sold in the entire country/world is a massive amount of pollution reduction, so we really probably should have learned in the 70's and written legislation that would prioritize those incremental gains.
But to an individual consumer it's inconsequential. If you drive the US average of 13,000 miles per year, going from 20 MPG (combined cycle) of a typical crossover to a 22 MPG wagon saves 60 gallons. That's several less fuel stops, but it's less impressive when you point out that it's the difference between 650 gallons 590 gallons and only saves about $200. Sure, most people would take an extra $200 in their pocket, but it's not enough for them to completely change the class of vehicle they're shopping for, nor override practicality concerns. In fact, sales history will show that most consumers will happily fork over ten times that much up front to get a certain capability.
Also, and this also comes up in AWD discussions, truck discussions, towing discussions: It's very liberating not having to plan ahead for that "a few times a year" eventuality. Especially if it only costs $200 a year. How many times can you rent a larger car each year before you burn through that?
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/s/FwmLXRabQZ
coherent-rambling@reddit
This addresses my point how?
Asking consumers as a whole to change their buying habits over 2 MPG is a losing proposition. Whether it's about money, or environmentalism, or energy independence, or performance, or handling... The number is right there on the Monroney sticker and consumers don't care. 2 MPG is not, as you originally said, significant, no matter what factors you consider at the individual consumer level. If it was, people would buy wagons.
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
I think you’re entirely missing the point or just reading too far into my comment. My original comment is a response to a comment that calls out MPG as not a big enough benefit to justify the other sacrifices. My response was pointing out that the small MPG savings are recognized every time you drive the car while the sacrifices are less frequent. And the frequency varies greatly. The balance of the trade off will differ by buyer.
My follow up comment points out that dollar savings isn’t the only benefit to MPG improvements and that the buying decision ultimately depends on the individual buyer’s wants and needs. And often, what they want has much more influence over the buying decision.
I’m not out here arguing against SUVs, I’m simply pointing out that wagons could work for most people in most situations… but most people just want SUVs.
gumol@reddit
I don't want to rent another car "a few times a year". It's annoying and takes time.
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
Then you should buy an SUV. I’m not arguing against SUVs, simply pointing out that wagons can work for most people in most scenarios, if it weren’t for the general love of SUVs.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Oooh that slope do be slippery though. They’re supposed to just say that shit about trucks.
cat_prophecy@reddit
But it's insignificant in the context of all of the other compromises you're making with the V90 over something that is larger and/or more capable. The V90 is a great looking car but it also has a lot of compromises that make it not a great choice unless you really want a wagon.
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
If you ignore all the other bad aspects sure
poopoomergency4@reddit
bad for who? most normal customers aren't seeing it
poopoomergency4@reddit
i find interior space pretty relevant every time i drive my vehicle
Drzhivago138@reddit
Only if you drive a lot of miles.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
going off of the sales numbers its insignificant to most people given the compromises you take to get there.
"interior space are most likely only relevant a few times a year" interior space & easier egress/ingress are relevant every single day
SloppyPizzaPie@reddit
This assumes people only make logical decisions.
I’m not arguing that it isn’t; I was responding specifically to a prior comment that listed out certain attributes.
Conanator@reddit
Yeah but they’re cooooool
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
The V90 i would argue isnt even that cool. The exterior color options are just awful unless you really love gray.
mandrsn1@reddit
My V90 is red.
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
Right now, your color options for a new V90 are: White, Black, Dark Gray, light Silver, Dark silver, light gray, and a dark denim blue.
VelikBatafuker@reddit
Ah yes, the "We don't just have 50 shades of gray colours, see!" colour of choice for manufacturers.
JaredGoffFelatio@reddit
The only people who genuinely think wagons are cool are the car nerds on reddit and such. I asked my wife and her friends if they thought wagons are cool and they all just laughed at me lol.
7eregrine@reddit
When I bought my Saab wagon... my wife borrowed someone's soccer ball net to give me as a prank gift.
Wagons ain't ever been "cool".
Take it away, Everclear.
https://youtu.be/xK_XWH7Ryd4?si=JPh0WxnzAgaSf8Ne
opeth10657@reddit
Most people look at them as grandma cars, or the hand me down car to the college kid
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PinkleeTaurus@reddit
One of the reasons many folks weren't buying Subaru Outbacks is because they still had more of a wagony look. The latest redesign has tried to step up the more boxy shape in a similar size package.
Ran4@reddit
That's literal nonsense. The v70 is beloved by pretty much everyone, not just car people.
JaredGoffFelatio@reddit
Maybe in Sweden. In America nobody knows that a v70 is unless they're a car enthusiast or Volvo owner already.
JaredGoffFelatio@reddit
Pretty much everyone besides car enthusiasts and Volvo diehard isn't even aware what a v70 is. They see one and probably think it belongs to an old grannie or a hipster. And they're probably right lol.
HalfFrozenSpeedos@reddit
No accounting for lack of taste frankly ...
Erigion@reddit
Car enthusiasts (on Reddit) need to stop confusing quirky with cool
Ran4@reddit
Wagons aren't quirky
C-C-X-V-I@reddit
That's why they're popular online and not in reality. They're different. If everyone drove wagons reddit would salivate over crossovers.
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
It does… If you compare correct the only thing that stands is that SUVs have better ground clearance but handle much worse and consume much more.
Even like an X5 vs a 5 wagon … you can’t compare the handling on these.
opeth10657@reddit
Because you need racecar handling in your DD. Most smaller SUVs and crossovers handle fine
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
No, we need the biggest truck we can find, so that once a year we go camping. Totally makes sense...
opeth10657@reddit
At least they can do other things.
With the wagon you have less capability and ease of use than an SUV, coupled with the look nobody wants.
Every wagon defender tries to bring up handling as if every wagon is an M5 variant and not some boring ass car like a passat.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
They can do other things I guess? In the meantime they eat more fuel, looks like a rectangle lifted in the sky, offer worse ergonomics as they are higher off the ground, the boot is often smaller, the rear leg room is often smaller, the boot lip is often higher which only suits quite tall people.
Overall, SUV's is a personal choice, they aren't better at all, unless you want to go on a trip once a year where you THINK you need barely any more ground clearance.
opeth10657@reddit
And just think, that was a short 35 years ago.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
Yep, and now the majority think they need an SUV. It's crazy. Here in my city, I would estimate that 99.9% of people with SUVs didn't know that wagons offered more space, are easier to drive, feel like smaller cars to drive, are safer for other road users and pedestrians, and are generally better on fuel
Ran4@reddit
They do not.
opeth10657@reddit
Ah yes, as opposed to the incredible road holding ability of something like a taurus wagon.
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
a Fumfer is not a racecar, but an X5 is a sea container.
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
Our family needs our most expensive vehicle to be practical. We have our weekend powersports for fun.
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
We have a taycan ST as family car. I don’t get the space requirements some people have, granted I’m only 1m85, but still unless you have more then 3 kids a 5 wagon will do for most
Erigion@reddit
SUVs trade depth for height in their cargo areas, which makes loading and unloading easier when you're packing it pretty full. And if you do need depth, you can drop one or both of the rear seats.
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
Yeah we tow a boat, snowmobile trailer, and also use all 3 rows of seating lol
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
And you represent what percentage of SUV owners? Not that an E wagon couldn’t do it…
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
Couldn’t tell you. Clearly enough that wagons are all-but-dead lol.
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
no - that's clearly the marketing convincing sad people they can be perceived as sporty and adventurous if they drive a containership
g0rd0l0c0@reddit
Taking turns at less than like 5 mph (so the body roll doesn’t spill their overpriced coffee) doesn’t math to a lot of us. Fine I can live with that, but the questions because they know you like cars and they want to to validate their purchase or impending purchase “why don’t you have x crosssover/suv” “what do you think about x, are they good, would you buy one?”, then getting the hard sell to the yuppie NPC lifestyle or their self justification of why they don’t do anything more with their Grand Cherokee than I do in my car (pretty sure your shitzu and 3 bags of groceries can fit in my front seat).
coherent-rambling@reddit
Man, I've done a full panic swerve lane change in my tall-ass Honda Pilot and was blown away by how composed it was. Enthusiasts massively undersell what modern independent suspension is capable of in a tall vehicle. Yeah, the body roll is unpleasant and you normally drive to avoid it, but try to put yourself in the headspace of the 99% of population that has never considered driving for enjoyment and doesn't care about 10/10ths. There aren't enough backroads and race tracks in the world to accommodate a measurable percentage of the market being enthusiast drivers, anyway.
I also have a V8 Mustang; I personally DO get it. But I also find crossovers to have legitimate redeeming characteristics, and completely non-dangerous handling - I understand why most people buy them. Hell, I bought one.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Which model has that much body roll? An '83 Wagoneer?
Historical-Swing4333@reddit
Not taking up copious amounts of space and offering a driving experience that’s not completely devoid of all enjoyment is a big plus for wagons.
Americans are just too stupid, materialistic, and boring to consider anything other than massive SUVs, and they hold on to them the same way gun owners fervently cling to their “necessary” weapons to keep their macho insecurities at bay.
The “benefits” of an SUV reflect the selfish and inconsiderate nature of the people that “need” them.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
When I read this in my head you were making the air quotes with your fingers and your voice sounded annoying.
rwbronco@reddit
my V60 Recharge gets 80+. I've put gas in it maybe 3 or 4 times this year alone.
WyrdHarper@reddit
What are you comparing it to? The V90 CC (which is really the only version that's functionally available in the US) has nearly the same ground clearance as the XC60 SUV, Volvo's best-selling vehicle ever, (8.3" vs 8.5") and the same towing capacity (3500lbs). The V90 also has more cargo space (25.2 cubic feet/69 with seats folded) than the XC60 (22.4 cubic feet/63.3 with seats folded).
Where the math doesn't hold up is the price gap--the XC60 starts \~$10k cheaper (and probably more like $15k when you factor in what dealer's are actually stocking, since most people are buying off the lot).
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Overeemlookssmall@reddit
I'm 6'5 and dont fit comfortably in most european "SUVs". They are very small inside. I drive superb btw
Teknicsrx7@reddit
It’d be better to buy an suv and drop the suspension a few inches than actually buy a wagon.
Hackwork89@reddit
Eh, before SUVs became super popular, I viewed wagons the same way I view SUVs: with bored indifference.
SUVs and wagons are equally lame.
woowoo293@reddit
For those of you who actually still want an affordable Wagon in the US, there are options that are about as wagon-ish as the outgoing Outback. For example: Toyota Crown Signia, Honda Prologue/Chevy Blazer EV, Kia EV6. The new Kia K4 hatchback is also basically a wagon.
Zappiticas@reddit
A blazer absolutely is not a wagon. It has crossover proportions and feels like a crossover.
WyrdHarper@reddit
Same with the Crown Signia. My neighbor has one--it's a neat car, but feels way too chunky to really be a wagon. And my insurance no longer covers Kias in my state, so that's also not an option.
hutacars@reddit
Crown Signia is 64” tall compared to the Outback’s 66.1”.
WyrdHarper@reddit
The outback also has a 2” higher ground clearance, so they’re roughly the same. And is advertised as an SUV.
hutacars@reddit
An Outback is 66.1” tall and a Blazer is 67” tall. It’s a concerningly small difference.
woowoo293@reddit
This is why I described them as wagon-ish rather than as wagons (though arguably the K4 hatch is a wagon).
The only true wagons are the high-performance offerings from Europe. And those are unfortunately not affordable for most of us.
theNightblade@reddit
none of them are wagons at all.
Users5252@reddit
EV6 is more of a liftback hatch/sedan than wagon, the D pillar is not far back enough
Chosen1PR@reddit
I test drove a Blazer EV at an event. It drives like an SUV. Lots more body lean than my V60.
gimpwiz@reddit
Mouthbreathing SUV lovers are ruining my car hobby. If it wasn't for them, we would all be zipping around in Miatas.
hutacars@reddit
Somewhat unironically this. This is why I advocate for public transit. Get all the mouthbreathers into trains and busses to free up road capacity for people who actually want to be driving.
AlpineCoder@reddit
Actually if not for the SUV most of us would probably be "zipping" around in minivans so silver linings I guess.
PM_ME_UR_DECOLLETAGE@reddit
I am currently zipping around in a Miata.
AMA
gimpwiz@reddit
Is it awesome and do you feel yourself as better than other people?
PM_ME_UR_DECOLLETAGE@reddit
Yes it is and yes I do. At first I didn't but I couldn't ignore the visible aura that eminates from around my being at all times and have come to embrace my superior existence.
Users5252@reddit
Not just normal Miatas, Miata wagonnes with le manuelle
Sprinklypoo@reddit
And wood trim!
Users5252@reddit
And brown paint 🥵🥵🥵
anonymousn00b@reddit
Crossover lovers are even worse.
HeavyCanuck@reddit
I'll never forgive John SUV for what his invention did to the car market.
Sprinklypoo@reddit
He and Jimmy Bigtruck are on my list!
Other-Educator-9399@reddit
Don't blame John SUV. Blame John politician/regulator for manipulating the market with weird loopholes.
AwesomeBantha@reddit
SUVs are still popular and growing in popularity in places without weird loopholes
Other-Educator-9399@reddit
True. Good point.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
don't forget Europeans being the bastions of wagons and sedans and the antithesis to the fat americans with their cafe laws and big trucks
just forget that suvs outsold traditional passenger cars in europe last year
psaux_grep@reddit
How many electric wagons are there? I think that’s part of the problem too.
I get that a 20cm thick battery under the floor doesn’t make the greatest wagons in terms of rear seat comfort, but it’s a shame.
darkpaladin@reddit
That's easy to solve by boosting the height of the cabin up 20cm...oh wait now it's an SUV isn't it.
psaux_grep@reddit
Yup…
TulioGonzaga@reddit
Only a few. As far as I know, there's the Audi A6 Avant e-tron, BMW i5 Touring, Opel Astra Tourer electric and its sibling Peugeot E-308 SW and Volkswagen ID.7 Tourer.
There's also a couple of them from Chinese manufactureres like MG 5 (I think it's not sold anymore) and there's one from Nio, if I'm not mistaken.
woodsides@reddit
Taycan Cross/Sport Turismo too.
TulioGonzaga@reddit
I don't know how I missed my favorite of the bunch.
woodsides@reddit
Haha it truly is a gem. One of the best looking wagons period as well.
TulioGonzaga@reddit
Yes, indeed. I don't like much the regular Panamera but the Sport Turismo was spot on to me.
7eregrine@reddit
And big roads. Don't forget cheap gas too.
I finally spent some time in Europe... Man did I love seeing all the smaller cars. There are many parts of many cities that just simply won't fit an Escalade. Not so, America. Our buildings weren't 1,000s of years old so we just tire down neighborhoods and cities to build big roads.
NCSUGrad2012@reddit
Which is wild to me, because they definitely have more wagons than us but they love crossovers too. I just got back from London and I saw mostly crossovers. A ton of the BZ4X too which I never seen here
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I don't feel its particularly surprising that people all gravitated towards taller cars in an environment where width and length is at a premium, crossovers are just the do everything car
I may be misremembering but in case that Z4M is new, congratulations, its an insanely good car
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
You say width is at a premium, but all vehicles, including crossovers, are typically getting wider and longer with every generation.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Note quite as much in the European market which I was referring to, as far as cuvs go the Taos and Duster are quite small
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
I was talking about the North American market. Pretty much all vehicles get wider and longer every time a new generation comes out. It doesn't always happen, but it's quite common. For instance, the new Honda Passport, which is a midsize SUV, is only about an inch narrower than a fullsize pickup truck. That's insane.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I don't really see why width & length is an issue in NA where most folks won't encounter tight roads & parallel parking
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
It's gonna all depend on where you live, but most places it's fine. The thing is though, when it does come time to park in a space in a parking lot, your super wide vehicle becomes a nuisance. Many parking spots are a bit narrow, so all these SUV's that are quite wide make it difficult to park easily...or at least leave plenty of room on either side of the vehicle.
jahalliday_99@reddit
But somehow the boots get smaller…
NCSUGrad2012@reddit
I got it in June! When I got a company car I was allowed to daily I got a fun car. I love it so much, amazing machine
https://imgur.com/a/nHqSyqp
strongmanass@reddit
The European^TM deliberately selects the wagon to facilitate exercise as a lifestyle to maintain the Dolce and Gabbana model physique that all Europeans^TM have.
Quertior@reddit
I love my wagon, don’t get me wrong. But I also won’t hesitate to admit that minivans are better than wagons at hauling both people and cargo. If someone could convince a maker to put a 600 hp V8 into a minivan, I’d trade AMG wagon for it in a heartbeat. (Unfortunately, I’d probably be the only person buying it, which is why no one does that.)
As for SUVs (well, crossovers), the big ones give you more room and cargo space than a wagon, which is a plus for those who actually need those things. Small crossovers, though, are more or less just wagons that someone scrunched up a little bit and then decided to call by a different name because wagons weren’t cool enough.
(Traditional body-on-frame SUVs like the 4Runner are a different niche and I don’t really think of them as competing with wagons.)
an_actual_lawyer@reddit
Just morons who don't buy them new. Great values used.
lurpeli@reddit
Unfortunately, CUVs and SUVs offer everything the wagon offers with a taller ride height and more appeal to your average buyer.
7eregrine@reddit
They're safer. Period. As someone who left an SUV to get back into a sedan... SUVs are flat out safer.
I like my chances in my Volvo sedan against anything... But an Escalade is going to protect its passengers better.
Now let's wait for someone to comment that they aren't safer for pedestrians. 🙄
bakedvoltage@reddit
why the eye roll for pedestrian safety as if that’s not a valid concern?
7eregrine@reddit
Concern, sure. But no one thinks... "I should buy a sedan in case I hit someone walking across the street".
I don't believe for a minute that "pedestrian safety" cracks the top 10 reasons 99.99% of people choose a sedan/wagon over a SUV.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
SUV's are more likely to kill or cause more damage to others when involved in an accident. Not sure how that's safer?
7eregrine@reddit
I promise that's not a uniquely American thing.
Elvis1404@reddit
They handle worse, have less trunk space (with the same exterior length and width), are more impractical to park and drive around in thight streets, are more dangerous for pedestrians, ruin the roads more (because they weigh more), cost (usually) more, and they have way worse fuel economy. Also they look ugly as sin (but that's IMHO) and cars with taller ride heights get me carsick
NCSUGrad2012@reddit
Do they have less trunk space? Assuming the car is the same length I would assume the taller car has more space.
Also, way worse fuel economy isn’t true. It’s definitely worse but for most people it’s negligible
joeislandstranded@reddit
My Buick TourX hits 30+ mpg on the highway with about 26 mpg in the streets.
The cargo area is quite long and wide, although not very tall.
They are/were all AWD, but ride height isn’t that high. Still, it’s high enough to tackle the “average owner’s” true offroad ambitions.
For me, I think the TourX really shines in ride quality and handling when compared to the average crossover.
Still, the average buyer ignored these cars because height is king, for some reason
NCSUGrad2012@reddit
The seating position is more comfortable and it’s easier to get in and out of, that’s what people care about. Half my family can’t even get into my car lol
bakedvoltage@reddit
tbf a Z4 is basically on the ground compared to most cars
NCSUGrad2012@reddit
No argument there. My grandmom always says she could probably get into it but never out of it, lol
joeislandstranded@reddit
I’ve had a couple of Miatas and a Triumph Spitfire. I know what you mean by getting into and out of cars!
That being said, the TourX is no different than any other car. Just a tiny bit of a leg squat to lift one self out of it. It’s kind of sad when that has become too much of a burden for the masses
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
Hell, I don't even physically fit in Miatas. Hell, I don't fit in new Corollas or Camrys even. Stupid long torso...
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Ran4@reddit
Wagons have way way better trunk space.
Titan0917@reddit
In what way? Please provide examples
red_fuel@reddit
Either they're spacious for passengers or they have a large boot. Can't have both. A Mercedes G-Class is notoriously small inside. A 1st gen Range Rover Sport is as well. Don't know about newer ones. Others are overall not as spacious as you would think. Estates generally have a slightly longer wheel base than the sedan version and also usually have a longer rear overhang that results in more room for both passengers and luggage.
duucfho@reddit
The closes apples to apples comparison would be to Volvo's own SUVs.
An XC60 has 21.6 cuft of cargo with the seats up, a V90 has 19.8 cuft, and 2nd row passenger space is pretty comparable, despite the XC60 being 10 inches shorter overall.
An XC90 is exactly the same length as a V90, and has 34 cuft of cargo with the 3rd row folded (vs 19.8 in the V90).
We can debate the other differences, but the added height of SUVs is always going to beat a wagon as far as interior space goes
Ran4@reddit
Sit in the back of an xc60... They're very tight. Theres much more room in a v90
gumol@reddit
how do wagons have both then?
red_fuel@reddit
Longer wheelbase and/or longer rear overhang.
markeydarkey2@reddit
Which gives it a larger footprint on the road. There is a similar amount of space in my compact CUV as a typical midsize wagon, but it's easier to park because it's much shorter & easier to get into/out-of because of the height.
Car design, car classification, and car proportions are all part of the formula of a car. Modern crossovers use the same [length] x [height] x [width] = [volume] as wagons but use additional height in place of length. You'd need something like a V120 to match the interior room of an XC90 because of that.
gumol@reddit
so not the same length?
AwesomeBantha@reddit
The flip side is that crossovers usually have a slightly shorter wheelbase than the sedan version. And the space in a crossover is usually more usable than the space in a sedan when the seats are folded down, since you can fit a larger single item into a crossover.
Titan0917@reddit
A Mercedes G glass is not a big car, and it’s certainly not the typical crossover that is replacing wagons.
FesteringNeonDistrac@reddit
Extra height isn't really useful in most cases. Maybe if you buy something like a TV it helps, but I'd rather have a larger floor space for my day to day. Like when I was coaching my kids soccer team, it was better to lay the PUG goals flat on the floor and the bag of balls on top rather than to try and stand either one up. And you definitely don't want to stack stuff up to where it could become a missile in a crash.
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
Trunk space - depends On the model. This is because of the oversized wheels for the pretend offroad capabilities.
Fuel economy ? Hell yes - don’t be confused with cross-overs
Drzhivago138@reddit
What's confusing about them?
Drzhivago138@reddit
What's confusing about them?
Titan0917@reddit
That’s all completely incorrect or irrelevant to most drivers.
The handling makes no difference to the average driver, no one is hustling these down tail of the dragon.
An XC90 is less than two inches wider than a V90, only half an inch longer, and just under a foot taller. The XC90 has more cargo capacity with the seats up and just over 13 more cubic feet with the seats down. The XC90 offers a 3rd row while the V90 does not. The XC90 is $6,000 cheaper than the V90.
Step down to the XC60 and you get a vehicle that’s about 10 inches shorter, 7 inches taller, and only down 2 cubic feet of storage space with the seats up and 3 cubic feet with the seats down. The XC60 is $17,000 cheaper than a V90.
The XC60 gets 22mpg city and 28mpg highway, the V90 gets 22 city 29 highway and the XC90 gets 22 city 27 highway.
Erigion@reddit
It's insane that the first argument wagon lovers usually give is that they handle better than CUVs.
It's almost as worthless as professional car reviewers complaining about poor steering feel in a Camry or CR-V.
Pyrhhus@reddit
Or the other classic journalist idiotic complaint "REEEEEE HARD PLASTICS"
hutacars@reddit
“Normie cars” are just so universally good (at their intended purpose) these days that there’s very little to differentiate them or complain about, so reviewers have to find something.
WingerRules@reddit
They'll complain the steering isn't stiff enough in every review for a grocery getter until all cars long trip ride quality sucks and then complain about that. Its already happening.
Ran4@reddit
You can feel the handling every time you drive in a roundabout.
Titan0917@reddit
Normal people aren’t taking roundabouts like a time attack.
limitz@reddit
Yes, we all know 'handling' is very important while going 25mph in a roundabout for 5seconds.
Really gets my heart rate pumping when I navigate the school drop off line.
breadwithcheese69@reddit
The xc90 has a bigger boot than the v90 and they are the same length
Elvis1404@reddit
The XC90 is way wider though
Drzhivago138@reddit
The XC90 is 1923 mm and the V90 is 1890. A whopping 33mm difference (just over 1").
Ran4@reddit
That's a lot.
Titan0917@reddit
I feel sorry for you
hopenoonefindsthis@reddit
It's always the same argument yet people love their SUVs.
It's perfectly fine to prefer Wagon, but to say they are worse vehicles are just non-sense.
I bought one specifically just so my older parents with bad knees can get in and out much easier than my old wagon. For that reason alone anything else is moot.
Ran4@reddit
It's not nonsense a wagon is much more practical.
limitz@reddit
Wearing the same grey tunic with black slacks everyday is practical and keeps you warm. But everyone has different notions on what works for them.
It's more practical for older folks to have an SUV since it's higher. It's more practical for a family with 3 kids to have a van.
What you think is practical, someone else doesn't prefer. And right now, 'the market' just really prefer wagons. No use in hand wringing, it just 'is'.
hopenoonefindsthis@reddit
Slight typo on that second last sentence there haha
Pyrhhus@reddit
None of those arguments actually hold up in the real world. If they did, the SUV plague wouldn't be happening. And I say that as someone who just bought a wagon because I love them.
chibicascade2@reddit
The majority of people in the US didn't care about handling. They are going to drive in a straight line to work, then the store, then home.
There are very few right roads and right parking spaces in most of the country, and people feel safer in bigger vehicles.
I don't like it, but I understand why cars are going that way. The only thing that really changed my opinion on small cars was going to Europe and seeing everyone driving small hatchbacks. I ended up renting a modern Yaris and really enjoyed it. Can't even get that car here anymore.
ohwell_______@reddit
If the people who actually buy new cars agreed with you, Volvo wouldn’t have killed it off
renawld@reddit
Buyers are aware of that. But unfortunately they don't care, they will live with it.
Companies will continue to assemble them at max output because people will continue to buy them at higher profit margins.
fullock@reddit
I am not a fan of the taller ride height. It's useful for fording rivers, but I don't do it so much.
I'm old enough to have driven many 1970's and 1980's land yachts - the sort which sit 3 in front and 3 in back and ludicrous trunk capacity. I miss those things. I'd replace my SUV with a modern land yacht in a heartbeat. It'd be more useful.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
Sorry but what CUV offers more interior space, bigger boot, better MPG? More appeal to the average buyer is based on marketing, no car person likes the look of a raised rectangle box called an CUV.
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
No they don’t. They consume more, handle worse and are less safe. They have zero objective advantages for people living in a developed country
Titan0917@reddit
You are objectively wrong
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
Ok - well for those of us that can’t defy the laws of physics they obviously do ..
Sprinklypoo@reddit
Common clay of the new west?
atony1400@reddit
Adding it to the list:
ban-please@reddit
oh no not the malibu
rydenshep@reddit
Polestar 5 will replace the Polestar 2, at least.
stav_and_nick@reddit
Polestar 5 is their big boy sedan iirc, the Polestar 2 will be replaced as the cheap entry level (*) by the Polestar 7
Don't ask me why they're doing it like that
rydenshep@reddit
(incoherent screeching)
ryker888@reddit
This sucks
TripleShotPls@reddit
This is crushing and sad. The reality that Volvo, of all the automakers, will bail on wagons just proves the decline of society. Wagons are so practical, drive so much better than SUVs, and let's be real about how often people are actually towing if they even are.
gluten_heimer@reddit
And blame the fact that you could only custom order the non-Cross Country versions in the US (dealers didn’t stock them), and that people are (rightfully) skeptical of the longevity of a supercharged, turbocharged, and hybridized 4-cylinder. I know the newer drivetrains aren’t twincharged, but the point remains.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
There is a reason every manufacturer only stocks the all-terrain/cc because its what sells, do you seriously think mercedes, volvo, and audi are all in a conspiracy for this
gluten_heimer@reddit
What? No, I don’t think that, and I never suggested that I do. I think Volvo, like MBZ and Audi, knew the non-CC V90 would be a niche car. No conspiracy here. The automakers are in business to make money.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Ah my bad, I've met folks here who genuinely think all these manufacturers discontinued the non-cc and moved up trims so that they could justify killing of wagons like its some conspiracy, thought you were one of those
CrabCakesBenedict@reddit
this is what half this sub thinks lmao
BorderPeeTrolll@reddit
Yeah the twin charged nature of these engines was the ultimate reason I dropped considering one of these for our family vehicle. They're already so expensive to purchase at msrp and to throw that unreliability uncertainty (certainty) on top of it was a bridge too far.
I know emission restrictions pushed us here but if there are others like me, automakers can't expect folks to pay $50k+ for a car that's overly complex and expensive to buy & maintain for the sake of a few mpg - especially for a vehicle that isn't a massive hulking suv.
Moynia@reddit
TO be fair almost all of them are T5s and T6s, I dont think I have ever seen a T8 V90 stateside. The T5 base motor with FWD is probably the way to go, basic drivetrain that was well sorted by the time we got them. Most of the complaints I see are people bitching about the infotainment updates...
Other-Educator-9399@reddit
I know, right? That's basically the automotive equivalent of Foie Gras production. When I first read about the turbo and supercharged engine, I could hear the gaskets splitting and the exhaust leaks squealing through the pages of my car magazine!
Moynia@reddit
I love and want a V90, but for 70k new the fact that it was a FWD 4cyl is comical. Like the FWD T5s will hold up better than the T6 AWD counterparts but man in that segment you really need something more compelling
SymphonyNo3@reddit
Yeah I never understood the price on this car. It was about twice the price of my TourX. Sure the interior is 'nicer, ' but I'm not sure it's a $30-35k improvement.
CrabCakesBenedict@reddit
nowhere near. my mom owns one and i was genuinely surprised by how 'whatever' the interior is. feels like if there was a step between toyota and lexus for interior quality
walnut100@reddit
Seriously. Reading these comments I wonder if any of them have driven this thing. The V90 sucks to drive. The engine feels too weak to pull the thing and yes you literally feel like you're getting pulled due to the length and that FWD.
And it's a super AND turbocharged engine. Nobody wants to pay to maintenance or repair that.
Moynia@reddit
The SPA chassis drivetrain options are just so boring at the low end, and the T8s were so extremely expensive and kinda shaky especially when they launched. Volvo people DO buy for the drivetrain and having a meh 4cyl in a market saturated with meh 4cyls really didnt do them any favors with the enthusiast crowd.
I dont mind how slow they are, I drive a V70 R-Design which they giga-ruined for the US market by giving it the 3.2 i6 and FWD which makes all of about 200HP. But I got mine 11 years after new
AwesomeBantha@reddit
For $70k I’m spending the extra $7k and getting an E450 All-Terrain. Better powertrain, quicker, probably a nicer interior and subjectively looks much better to me.
Ifailedaccounting@reddit
Blame price tags and the fact people now feel they need to be “high up” to deal with large SUV’s and trucks
ryyaaaannn@reddit
I blame SUV's for everything wrong with cars these days
yaxgto@reddit
Nooooooooooooooooo my dream car! Never hit my prime to afford one.
testdrivee@reddit
i’m sure you’ll find a used one lol
Hard_NOP_Life@reddit
They depreciate like mad, too. Great deals to be had if an out of warranty turbo and supercharged I4 doesn't scare you.
boomerbill69@reddit
They barely depreciate at all compared to the sedans though, at least around me. Seems like they’re double the price and there are rarely any up for sale.
ChicSheikh@reddit
The V90 depreciates less and yet the V90 always cost way more to lease than the S90 because the S90 always had sweet subsidized lease specials. If Volvo wanted to move more V90s they could have offered some reasonable leases on them!
Hard_NOP_Life@reddit
I'm in Canada, so could be overstating it. They're not nearly as rare here, seems like.
WyrdHarper@reddit
The cheapest ones in my area area are still $30k+ for 5-7 year old ones. And there's only 3 of those within a 200 mile radius of me (and they're from Carvana and Carmax, so who knows what condition they're actually in). There's 3 new ones for 60-70k plus. Not a lot of option. We're drowning in XC60's around here, though.
MrWhiskers8585@reddit
I do love the depreciation. I picked up my '22 S60 R Design last year for $26k, and it only had 20k on the clock.
Moynia@reddit
They hold their value like 10x better than the S90 sedan lol
dreamingtree1855@reddit
I bought a new one 2 weeks ago. I just made it phew!
exyia@reddit
Volvo never sent any of these to any dealers. Finding one just to test drive has been such a headache (around 2019-2020 for me, haven't checked since as we bought a different car). And I'm not blind ordering something this expensive.
Another annoying finger pointing problem where manufacturers blame us for not buying them, but never made them readily available to try/buy. This is coming from someone who was seriously in the market for one.
And before commenters blame dealers, save your breath. I'd bet that Volvo, like 90% of other manufacturers, handle inventory stock and distribution at the corporate level. Very few manufacturers actually have dealers order their own inventory these days. Manufacturers pick what to distribute out based on their market analysis, their analysis sucks, and dealers just get what they get.
purz@reddit
Also doesn’t help that they treat them like pirate treasure if they do end up with one. Oh that one quirky car guy will pay full price easily let’s wait for him. I’ve never been offered a discount on a wagon but you mostly can get them easily or incentives on the similar level SUV. That and you don’t have to deal with the dealer acting like an old man on Craigslist who knows what he’s got.
smegma-cheesecake@reddit
Aren’t dealers required to have at least one of each model for test drives? And if you like it you just order your own specification? Are US dealers different?
xt1nct@reddit
I thought these were special order only?
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I was looking for one a while ago just to try it, still around 3 dozen within 100mi radius, with good color choice
I feel like thats pretty solid, test drive one and then if the exact spec is lacking then custom order?
Not like these came with many options anyways, all were ultra, most have all the luxury bits, its just interior & exterior
exyia@reddit
5 dealerships in the Houston area for me. There is ONE V90 CC among all of them. That's it. Yet there's about 150+ of XC90's across all of them.
Obviously, it would have been better to check a few months ago since this could be just the result of them winding down the production already, but we'll never know. But given my awful experience for months when I was in the market and what it looks like now, I'll bet availability probably never improved.
Good to hear your area has availability though. If only corporate could have maybe thought 3 dozen in one area and 1 in another is a bit imbalanced and adjusted distribution....but it's not like studying and adjusting distribution is part of their job /s
Other-Educator-9399@reddit
That, and also, Volvo has long catered to fiercely brand-loyal customers who don't buy based on test drives.
exyia@reddit
This was my experience with all of the salespeople too. They told me to buy an S90 and then come trade in when they got more V90's in. Or an S60 and trade in when V60's came in.
Absolutely asinine suggestion. The amount of depreciation on Volvo's is huge and I would be digging myself out of that hole for years if I did that. Nobody at any other brand dealership - not even Nissan - would suggest that. You would never be able to make the second deal work with the customer with so much negative equity....unless you have dumb brand loyal customers with more money than sense
ryker888@reddit
The only reason I got my V60 was my local dealer ordering it as a dealership loaner car and I bought it in the pandemic when they had no use for a loaner car. Otherwise you had to special order any V60/90 for the most part. They occasionally had a few V90 Cross Country’s but never any non CC ones on the lot
cat_prophecy@reddit
If enough people showed interest in them, dealerships would order them. But dealers aren't going to order a car they think no one will buy. It's somewhat of a chicken-and-egg situation.
ingen-eer@reddit
I wanted the Volvo wagon. V90 R design. Fucking delicious.
I drive an Outback wilderness because of these reasons:
Power was about the same.
The Volvo was going to be at minimum 75% more expensive to buy
I don’t have a nearby Volvo dealer to service it in warranty
The Volvo will cost more to keep owning
I struggle to rationalize spending so much on a vehicle at all, the task of “be my car” isn’t worth $70k ish to me.
I was getting a car to have a kid. Why bend way over to load her into the car every time?
Ultimately I love the v90. I’m sure I would have had fun in it. But the value proposition doesn’t hold up, for me.
Any-Row5859@reddit
Really really old project. Who wants a 9 year old project, when MB, BMW and Audi have new wagons on the market?
edzefe@reddit
My father owned 2 V90CC's back to back after an XC90 . It was a great car, way better feeling and looking than the XC90. I am genuinely sad its ending production.
Uptons_BJs@reddit
Quite frankly, what even was the point of the S90? Who was buying a full sized sedan from Volvo?
If nobody even wanted an S90, obviously the V90 was deader.
jermainiac007@reddit
god I'd love an S90 if I 1. had the money and 2. they offered a petrol manual. Wishful thinking though obviously
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
Pretty much everything from Volvo doesnt sell outside of the XC class, That line alone contributes to 105k/125k of their 2024 sales in the US.
The S60 contributes another 13k.
Meaning that the final 7k units are split between the C40, EX30, EX90, S90, V60 CC II, V60 II, and V90 CC.
juridiculous@reddit
Excuse me, but can you please fuck all the way off?
cat_prophecy@reddit
The S90 is rare as hen's teeth. It made sense when it was cheaper than its full-size competitors. It's a hard sell when it costs the same as an A6, 5-series, or E-class.
WyrdHarper@reddit
Yeah, it was always kind of weird that they went from having one (pretty popular) wagon model with the XC70 (which in 2016, was $38k--about $50k in today's dollars), to having two models (the V60 and V90), especially since those models weren't all that different (the V60 is \~3 inches shorter than the XC70, and the V90 is \~3 inches longer. The V90 comes stock with slightly more premium features, but it's not really (imo, and I think the opinion of many buyers) $10k more premium--plus it's a little bit less efficient due to the extra size.
Volvo has a dedicated segment of people who buy their wagons--and I think having one really good model in that segment makes sense for them. Two was always a little weird.
BorysBe@reddit
V90 Cross Country is a great car imo, good clearance and rough looks. Standard V90 looks like a car company for mid-level manager.
CMDRfatbear@reddit
The only thing ive heard good about that volvo is the sound system is really good for stock, but thats also the only thing ive heard about this car.
funked1@reddit
That's like, a bummer, man. I think they are cool but have no need for a vehicle that big or expensive.
Hackwork89@reddit
Wagons are the SUV of yesteryear.
Boring as fuck, let them die along with the SUV and start making cool coupes and sedans again.
1nconspicious@reddit
I wish the wagons we have available in the U.S. weren't just European. Their maintenance expenses and complexity eas their Achilles heel (price tag too)
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
"Volvo CEO Jim Rowan told Autocar that the last V90 will be assembled in September, and he hinted that the V60 won’t be renewed either once its time comes to an end."
TA-MajestyPalm@reddit
That's wild. Getting very close to no wagons available in the US. What's left?
hutacars@reddit
Outback is already concerningly tall for a wagon, and will only be further SUVified for ‘26 (68.1” tall, up from 66.1” for the ‘25s).
OprahFtwphrey@reddit
This is a hot take but I would argue the X1 is more of a wagon than an SUV
g0rd0l0c0@reddit
Mercedes e class if you have $$$
Pyrhhus@reddit
That's why the V90 died- it costs the same as the E class, which is insane cause having just cross shopped them the E class is WAY nicer. That's why there's an E class parked in front of my house rn even though I grew up always having volvos
C-C-X-V-I@reddit
If you call the outback a wagon then so is my blazer
Rampartt@reddit
Also the Signia is $55k with any options, ANC pumped into the cabin and it still has atrocious road noise. Mercedes still makes wagons, I think the E class, but they are rare.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
The Crown Signia doesn't offer any options packages, save for the Advanced Tech Package only offered on the top of the line Limited trim. Sure, there are your basic accessory items that you can add on for both trims, but those are your run-of-the-mill floor mats, cargo tote, and other ticky-tack add-ons. Point being, the base XLE is $46k, while the top of the line Limited trim is $50k-$52k. The only way it can hit $55k is if your dealer adds on every little accessory item onto the Limited trim. You can easily have an XLE far below $50k.
Rampartt@reddit
I’m talking OTD so starting MSRP is $44k, and after $2k freight, $500-900 of dealer fees, taxes, man you’re easily at $50k. My point being, it’s not much car for the money, plus it’s a limited run I think of two years and they’re barely available
theNightblade@reddit
Mercedes E450
Sadly way out of what I'm willing to pay. Hopefully the V60 sticks around for about 6 more years
RearWheelDriveCult@reddit
A6 Allroad is probably 80% wagon since it’s lifted
WyrdHarper@reddit
Audi R6 Avant if you want to spend like $130k. Super cool wagon, but not really achievable for most.
gumby_twain@reddit
What a shame. The V60 is the only car on my radar to replace my current vehicle. The only reason i am not pulling the trigger is because they are too $$$ for what they are. So i guess not that much of a shame.
7eregrine@reddit
He also hinted at an Electric wagon Nov 2024.
Then quit or was asked to leave. Fuck Jim.
Moynia@reddit
To be fair from 2010 to ~2014 we only had ONE Volvo wagon for sale in the US and it was the XC70
InvasionOfScipio@reddit
Jim Rowan isn’t the ceo of Volvo. Amazing journalism
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
They’ve to do realistic decision because that’s their owner Geely uy
Key_Ruin_4303@reddit
Worse roads = requires better ground clearance, SUVs are more versatile, safe, better for families, PHEV and EV tech gives them better mileage.
Also better for back when going in and more specious.
MechMeister@reddit
Because it was too expensive and had a bad reputation for unreliability. Mystery solved.
Scary-Button1393@reddit
Anytime I see someone else in a v90 I get super pumped, it happens like twice a year.
I see 10-20x more v60s & 70s :/
TheGuyDoug@reddit
G'dangit. Always loved the non-Cross Country V90, but even it's used equivalent was just out of my price range, even compared to an E class of comparable mileage albeit older years.
JTSpirit36@reddit
And here I am keeping my 2013 C30 Polestar alive for as long as i fucking can 😂
sfp33@reddit
My dad has one of these and it’s great. Big shame!
OkDirection8015@reddit
I blame the Germans. They just have the reputation for making solid luxurious sedans for so many years that people have gotten used to them. Even though they have been full and boring for years now.
juridiculous@reddit
The only reason I have an S90 is because they didn’t have any fucking V90s in stock.
equityorasset@reddit
how do you like S90, im in the market for a full size sedan and they look awesome but never driven one.
juridiculous@reddit
Far and away the best feature is the B&W sound system, and the comfy seats.
Infotainment is slow but not horrible (and that’s for a 2017 model - can’t speak to how android holds up on the new ones.)
Blazarnova@reddit
I’m gonna miss this car the v60 polestar was an perfect car
UnmakingTheBan2022@reddit
You can’t even find a V60/90 on the lot to test drive.
How are we supposed to know if we actually like the thing?
Realistically wagons should drive better than SUVs with similar cargo space. SUVs just have a taller platform.
UnmakingTheBan2022@reddit
Not gonna read the article—is it dead in the US only or worldwide?
FR_Van_Guy@reddit
How about the XC90 wagon?
Drzhivago138@reddit
The XC90 has always been a tall-bodied crossover.
FR_Van_Guy@reddit
Sorry. I meant the v90xc ( cross country version of the v90)
pq11333@reddit
One of the best looking wagons of all time. Always enjoyed seeing them.
Meeganyourjacket@reddit
My complaint about the US wagons was tow capacity was relatively low
Ganym3de@reddit
Is it because the generation of people who buy suv's have terrible lowerbacks and rather slide into a car instead of kneeling to get inside/outside one?
Yes.
wirecxre@reddit
“Sedans are dying and its all SUVs fault!”
Car manufacturer: “Makes sedan”
“Why would i buy this when i can get a crossover with more space?”
only 5 people buys sedan
“Sedan gets discounted”
“ITS ALL THE SUVS FAULT”
It’s a beautiful car but it’s not what people want, and people complaining on the internet is not gonna buy it either.
foofoo982@reddit
When I was shopping it was priced above very well optioned SUVs with better and larger drivetrains. As much as I liked the outside design, BMW and Mercedes 6 cylinder options were far better to drive as well.
dreamingtree1855@reddit
I agree with all of that but I still just bought one anyway. The Mercedes was so overstyled inside and out and the X5 is everywhere around here so it just called to me.
Future_Khai@reddit
You guys could just blame consumers.
tetsuzankou@reddit
The reality is even if you can afford one, it doesn't make sense to buy one in most countries where your main mobility transport is a car. The target market for wagons is and will always be families, no other consumer will spend 70k+ on such vehicle with more luxurious suvs and even sports cars available.
Affordability aside, when you choose a wagon as a family your trade off is more performance, trunk size and (sometimes) sleeker design over increased visibility, crash safety and ride quality.
You can see why most families and 1 car only people choose SUVs over anything else really when you're in the roads alongside other massive SUVs.
HalfFrozenSpeedos@reddit
Next fad will probably be blinged up armoured MRAP type SUVs - keep your child safe to and from school in the new Apocalypse SUV - body resistant to 50 BMG fire, V shaped underbody to divert explosive blasts, for maximum safety ask your dealership about our children's apocalypse personal protection package - military grade helmet (visor optional), plate carrier, elbow pads, kneepads and more....
tetsuzankou@reddit
once North America and Europe become less safe I don't see this out of the realm of possibility
I have family in Latin America and Asia and in some of their countries (which were historically safe despite the economy) it's already become standard to get your econobox CRV and RAV4 type cars armored due to gunpoint carjacking. I'm not kidding.
Caqtus95@reddit
I'd rather blame the cattle that buy them.
OutrageousRhubarb853@reddit
I test drove one and it was nowhere near what should be expected from that price point. I ended up a slightly older 5 series touring.
glizzytwister@reddit
people stop buying expensive sedans
No, no, it's the SUVs that are to blame...
Agreeable-Fall-4152@reddit
What a beautiful car
Gloomy_Student_587@reddit
Toyota innova pov drive in india - https://youtu.be/b8xODWy7sz8
Users5252@reddit
I think having a 4 cylinder hybrid engine while being sold as a premium car turned away a lot of potential buyers. It might have sold well if they made it less luxurious and sold it at the same price range as a Honda Accord.
gor134@reddit
The buyer base for high-end wagons is niche but old-money customers. They pay top dollar and definitely want at least a 6-cylinder at that price point.
JaredGoffFelatio@reddit
The hybrid gets pretty awful MPGs for a brand new hybrid too. It's got a lot of power, but I bet most hybrid buyers don't really care too much about that and would rather have a more fuel efficient vehicle. Adding to that the people who care about power generally don't care hybrids. So it's in a weird place really..
solo118@reddit
Maybe because they did not make a new design in several years? Most carmakers change it up after 6 years, and I guess current owners are still living nicely with what they have as they were kinda reliable
equityorasset@reddit
these things are going to hold their value like crazy lol
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
Fuck all SUVs and their owners. Same for pick-ups.
The one the biggest marketing scam ever, the other a dirty protectionist trick from the 80s.
BlackTed@reddit
Cope and seethe, while I revel in my cabin space
Drzhivago138@reddit
What vehicle do you drive?
Round_Mastodon8660@reddit
I share An EV, a Roadster and a motorbike with my wife
black_flag_4ever@reddit
The station wagon is dead. We were all raised to think that minivans and station wagons were for dorks but somehow SUVs are cool. I think wagons are cool, but also don't have the money for $60k - $75k imported wagon that tariffs are going to make incredibly expensive to maintain.
opeth10657@reddit
SUVs are for dorks too, they're just more practical than wagons for most buyers.
JustaguyTTV@reddit
man suvs are like woke for cars i swear, it's capitalism that's the problem if u're annoyed about this
PunkyB88@reddit
I will always be in awe of this car for packing an inline 6 transversely
SinisterHippos@reddit
Really wanted a V90 years ago but this was the family vehicle and my wife wanted a practical reason why we would spend the exact same money on the V90 or XC90. She could see if the V90 was less expensive, but it wasn't it was the same price as the SUV with less room.
And the fuel economy was also the same and slightly better on the bigger SUV. 26 mpg on the AWD XC90 vs 25 mpg on the AWD V90.
> Wagons are usually lighter, cheaper, and more efficient.
Writer clearly has no clue what they're talking about. The Volvo wagon is the same price (if not more expensive), same fuel economy. The wagon may weigh less but if it doesn't translate to better fuel economy, buyers don't care. Nobody is tracking their family hauler.
Zeracho@reddit
To a degree I blame Volvo for complicated, unreliable drivetrains
thefanciestcat@reddit
Why? Did they become sentient and kill all Volvos?
Starwars-Battledroid@reddit
Why, why did John SUV have to come up with the eyesore that is SUVs 😔
ZaheerAlGhul@reddit
I guess the V60 will also follow the same path as well.
nerdpox@reddit
Audi, I am willing to do my part and buy an RS5 avant new if you bring it to the US just to prevent this
ZaheerAlGhul@reddit
Is the V60 dead as well?
existentiallyfaded@reddit
Honestly, Volvo pulling the plug on the V90 makes sense. Hardly anyone was buying them compared to the XC90, and the numbers back it up. You get less interior space, no third row, and mpg that isn’t really better than the SUV. For roughly the same money, the XC90 gives you more versatility and more space. The V90 looks cool if you’re into wagons, but for most people it was a worse deal all around. Both drive pretty terribly anyways.
turboash78@reddit
Tall cars (crossovers) are not SUVs. Shame though, wagons are super cool.
Drzhivago138@reddit
To the average buyer and to marketers, all crossovers are SUVs.
Twentyhundred@reddit
Estates in general, no? It’s sad man, the V90 is one of the sexiest estates in existence. Had a V70 myself, not a volvo guy, but I loved that car to bits.
SaigaExpress@reddit
I looked real hard at these a few years ago thats too bad they are going away but im not surprised.
Vhozite@reddit
I swear someone on the mod team is getting a check from Motor1. This is the most blatant r/cars rage bait I’ve ever seen from a car “news” site.
Drzhivago138@reddit
It wasn't too long ago this site was on the blacklist.
supreet908@reddit
I was in the market for one of these earlier this year. Tell me why I couldn't get a T8 version of it, but I could get a T8 V60, but then that V60 (even in the top spec) didn't come with the same interior features of a V90? Relatively "basic" luxury vehicle features like ventilated seats were not an option for the top-spec V60 T8. To top it off, you can't get the T8 in either wagons' Cross Country trim at all for some reason.
I decided I would be okay with an S90, but then had such a stupid experience at the dealership that I just abandoned it altogether for another Lexus. I do still really want one of these Volvo wagons at some point, though.
Yougotthewronglad@reddit
My wife loves hers, we’ve had 3 diesel variants in the UK as well. Big bummer.
greg-maddux@reddit
So I’m definitely not an SUV guy but there is no question in my mind that they’re simply more comfortable for most people, myself included. I prefer to drive my sedan, but simply getting in and out of a low car is infinitely less comfortable than hopping into an suv. And when every other car on the road is an suv it gets old not being able to see over and around other automobiles.
Jaymez82@reddit
Oh well. Not like they were in my price range, anyway.
humdizzle@reddit
there really isn't a good reason to get one unless you're an audiophile or just want something unique in the sea of german cars. their HK and Bowers systems are some of the best in the entire industry. But the cars are complicated, not reliable, sparse dealer network, not sporty at all.
i loved the xc60 rental i had in europe on vacation. it was a t8 hybrid. but after reading more about them i would never want to own it.
Jlx_27@reddit
People fall for the extra height of the cabin, and elevated seating position.
Ill_Captain_8967@reddit
No one is to blame, the markets makes the rules
durrtyurr@reddit
They also discontinued the S90 sedan version, this is not a surprise.
lostfate2005@reddit
lol no, blame people
lostinheadguy@reddit
It was rumored a while ago that both the V90 and V60 were to be replaced with a single model inspired by the 2021 Recharge Concept. I wonder if that's still happening now that they're pivoting away from their all-EV plans.
I've decided that if I get another Volvo it'll be something closer to classic (like an 850) anyway.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
This looks a lot like the currently chinese-only XC70
Kobebeef9@reddit
Guess it would be under the V70/S70 moniker? Also a bit surprised by this news because Volvo announced last year that they are bringing back the V60/V70 in the UK at least and makes me wonder if this is US only.
lostinheadguy@reddit
During that time they were unavailable in the UK, the V60 CC and V90 CC were still on sale in the US. The V90 is done-done in all markets though in September.
Motor1's reporting is a repost of this article from Autocar: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/volvo-v90-production-end-brand-eyes-future-without-estates
I think if they came out with a new "V60 CC-like vehicle", it would potentially still be in the cards for us. The V60 CC continues to persist in our market despite its slow sales. 2,000 to 3,000 sales per year is absolutely nowhere near "a lot" but it is potentially enough for "halo car" status in our market.
chopper2585@reddit
Here's the thing, i never, ever, ever see commercials for sedans or wagons. Every commercial is SUVs for almost all brands. How do they expect people to buy these if they make no effort to advertise.
SamsonFox2@reddit
The pricing on V90 doesn't make any sense, even within Volvo lineup.
argent_pixel@reddit
SUVs have more space than equivalent wagons. Wagons are just as pointless as sedans for anyone who is looking to maximize utility out of their appliance.
Ambereggyolks@reddit
Volvo could make more reliable vehicles that are more competitive too. They haven't done much to move the needle for what people want for as long as I remember. They've just existed in their niche. Nice cars, a great alternative to other options in that price range but I always feel like there's a better option unless you wanted a wagon, that was basically what set them apart from other brands
XSC@reddit
Fuck, I wanted one but they were just too expensive. I was planning on getting a used one. They are gorgeous.
SeahawksFanSince1995@reddit
Blame the general populace for only wanting SUVs. I drive a C63 coupe and you can't see anything on the road anymore since everyone is in an SUV or massive truck.
I love my coupe but its becoming a liability on long drives with the wife. Probably selling it after this year and buying an X6M or GLE 63.