[Israel] ‘Where were you on Oct. 7?’: Zamir said to upbraid Netanyahu, ministers at heated meeting | Report says IDF chief warned government that planned op to conquer Gaza City will lead to ‘a military government’ in the Strip, as army starts calling up 60,000 reserve soldiers
Posted by Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 85 comments
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
Some interesting points I found from the article below:
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DanDan1993@reddit
When fucking dudi amsalam makes the most sense out of politicians mentioned before you realize how bankrupt our politicians are
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
I'd say that in Israel's case, the politicians represent Israel perfectly. Being completely unhinged and calling for genocide while crying about antisemitism when anyone pushes back.
DanDan1993@reddit
Tell me you haven't spoken to any Israeli without telling me;
You realize Smotrich isn't passing the threshold in all polls so far? How does that work with him perfectly representing israeli?
sumquy@reddit
how long has bibi been in office? he is the most blatantly corrupt pm israel has ever had, but he keeps the ethnic cleansing machine rolling, and that is enough to keep him in power, no matter what else he does. everyone in the world is hearing israel speak right now.
DanDan1993@reddit
Bibi wasn't in office between 2022-2023. are you aware of the political gridlock going on in israel for the past years?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Wow, a whole 18 months! Revolutionary! What did the coalition do during that time? It expanded settlements, deepened apartheid and mass murders children. Yay Israel!
DanDan1993@reddit
passed bills which allucated 50 billion shekels to Arab communities over five years to improve infrastructure, healthcare, civil service and more, which never happened before.
https://www.gov.il/he/pages/dec292_2021
You truly have no idea what you're talking about so again enjoy the sounds I hear when I read your garbage comments
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Passing bills which positively impact Israeli Arabs totally offsets shooting Palestinian children. How many Palestinian babies can you starve and kill for every billion shekel you allocate but don’t spend on Israeli Arabs?
DanDan1993@reddit
level of comment
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
You get proven to be such a liar so often that I’m glad this is whatnot have to resort to.
DanDan1993@reddit
still sounding like this
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
lol. You can’t argue the point.
DanDan1993@reddit
I'm not even trying. You are clearly not worth it based on past interactions.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Of course not. Keep shouting that as loud as you can. Maybe someone, somewhere, will believe you some day. Better hope they don’t look back at our previous interactions, though. It’d be a shame if someone looked and saw you denying stuff that was true over and over and over again…
DanDan1993@reddit
Do you not get that I'm not bothering to read your comments? Might as well bash your head in the wall for the same effect
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Okay, let's see. Do you believe is an apartheid state commiting a genocide?
DanDan1993@reddit
Is this some purity test for me to pass to get eligible to have a conversation with you?
No wonder you have no idea how Israeli society really is
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Well, you're an Israeli according to your flair. Seems like you might provide me with an anecdotal answer.
DanDan1993@reddit
Seems like you missed my question and now demand an answer after ignoring me?
If you want a genuine answer then yes there are apartheidesque areas which mostly revolve around WB. Outside of WB you can't seriously call a nation with a palestinian serving in supreme court an apartheid nation. Go look for Ta'al, Balad and tell me why they haven't been disqualified for running for parliament (not that I agree they should) while Kach, which is a Jewish supremacy party was banned, and so far the only banned party in Israel (including non Zionist parties, Palestinian nationalist party.....).
About genocide; not there yet. Not ruling ethnic cleansing because that's what our unhinged coalition wants, but genocide has clear definitions which aren't hitting here. Yet.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Are the Israeli Arabs (are Jewish people who are from the region also called Arabs?) just normal citizens or are they segregated in their own towns and city blocks? Is there a difference in average wage between Jews and Arabs? Is there any sort of discrimination from the Israeli Jews? What about Israel being a "nation-state of Jewish people"? I'd say apartheid exists in Israel proper but atleast you ackowledge that Israel is oppressing millions of Palestinians in the West Bank. I'd be more curious whether you see it as a genocide.
I want to actually ask a honest question. Did you or any people you know did anything about the settlers? You seem to agree it's wrong. Are you doing anything about it or are you one of those "No politik" Israelis?
DanDan1993@reddit
Seems like you again missed the parts where I asked you questions. Why should I continue answering you?
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Okay, I don't think that Smotrich represents Israeli society perfectly. I'd assume that the occupation of Gaza isn't a popular stance, not because of the morality but because of the cost. I meant the goverment in general.
I'm still curious about your stance on settlers.
DanDan1993@reddit
So why type it in the first place?
Sadly the occupation of Gaza is a popular stance to some degree. My estimation (and hope, it might be pure hopium) is that the majority of those people when asked about the consequences of occupying Gaza (even without international heat or morality speaking, just the crippling of our economy with constant reservists deployed, destroying families doing that, etc..) would revert their stance and mumble some other populist idea without thinking it out either. There is another large group who thinks the consequences are worth the "gains", whatever they are... this group consists mostly of religious right wingers (i.e religious zionism) who are in a pickle between Smotrich representing their ideas pretty spoken, but also being "fucked" by this government by the religious sector doing loads of IDF days being called to be reservists. between them not all agree with the ideas of smotrich, but sadly the "radical" (which is a large group between the religious zionism entity) ones agree with smotrich, but are fucked by his partnership to the Haridi, who are working overtime not to get drafted to IDF and continue sucking money for their education system which consists mostly of Torah and Sexual assaults (ok not that many, but every closed group has this phenomenon at increased level from general population), and the refusal to insert core material like math and english. Him (Smotrich) being out of polls and IBG rising by 2-3 seats (overall 4-10 seats decline between smotrich not passing threshold and IBG rising a bit) is a representation of those who agree with smotrich's ideas shifting to IBG, and those who don't agree with him and are getting fucked by his partnership shifting to other right wingers (Bennet, Yossi Cohen which might be a new party, Liberman, Reservist Party which is rumored to run) who might be more moderate then smotrich, but will help them get Haridi drafted and lessen their strain with being a reservist.
The government so far in all polls are getting around 45-50 seats (from 120), while opposition without arab parties are getting around 58-65. My hope is for 58 which would force either Bibi (which he did tickle with the idea of getting Abbas too, only to backdown because he didn't need to) or the opposition to run with an arab party like Bennet did when Mansour Abbas entered the coalition in 2020 with Ra'am.
The politics in Israel is pretty wild because we are pretty gridlocked for 5-7 years (depends how you count, or what events) between at 61-59 parliament, which just gave every MK so much power to topple the government (like Silman did over fucking Hametz in hospitals, that fucking unhinged women, who also defected to Likud from Bennet) and to demand crazy notions, like IBG getting internal security after Bibi saying he won't run with him, and afterthat he will run without but won't give him a minister... so it's hard to say the governemtn really represents the entire society because this gridlock IS real, and Bibi getting to PM due to left wing parties not signing vote-sharing agreement (Meretz was out of the parliment due to not passing threshold, all their votes were canceled and not moved to Haavoda because no agreement, so coalition gained 3 seats because of this shit).
We are not a monoloith, we have vast amount of ideas and opinions here...
Regarding settlers, no idea what you're aiming for or what the questions are. I oppose every settlement being built or expanded since at least 2005 during the summer of Hitnatkut and thrive to continue the notion started there of trying to let go and see what happens. 7 of october really killed this notion to A LOT of israeli people.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
The problem is that the overwhelming majority of Jewish Israelis have. Problem with what is happening in the West Bank or Gaza. In the West Bank Palestinians are being beaten to death by settlers and the IDF, children are shot in the head and homes are set on fire, but the Israelis who want peace keep voting for politicians who support the IDF and the settlers committing these atrocities.
You may say you oppose the settlers. Heck, you may actually oppose them, but it’s irrelevant because almost everyone else in Israel supports them.
DanDan1993@reddit
Yeah I'm not replying to you again so enjoy this sound which is what I hear when I read your comments which are constantly filled with bad faith arguments
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
So bad faith you can’t dispute them…
DanDan1993@reddit
lala sorry I don't deal with bad faith users
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
You must not deal with yourself at all…
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Yeah, not exactly when it comes to Palestinians. Sure, some of you want an occupation of Gaza, some just want to keep murdering children, some even might be for a ceasefire. But I don't see anyone advocating for an actual two state solution that could work, let alone a single-state one. I guess it might be the fear of ending up like Rabin. Basic human rights and respect of the international law? Nah, that's antiseptic. That's how far the Zionists are.
What does this even mean? Recognition of a Palestinian state? Would it be an actual sovereign state? That's impossible without respecting the 68' borders and you know it. Hence my question about the settlers. Are you protesting againts them? Where are all the mass protests againts the settlers? It's dooming Israel towards a one state solution and yet I don't see anyone care.
DanDan1993@reddit
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra14387396
Settlers protecting Arabs. Guess you didn't know these groups existed, so you can drop the "you aren't a monolith when it comes to palestinians" because it's just a big faulty generalization.
And yes it's based on 67 lines with territorial shifts in dense areas (i.e Ariel, maala adomim won't be evicted, similar land would be replaced). There are loads of them you just don't really know anything about Israelis and use generalizations to reach conclusions
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Okay, let's say that 10% of Israelis are not Zionists (Jewish supremacists). My point still stands. I can't open the link btw, it's probably some paywall but I'd still assume it's propaganda.
Why not respect the 67' borders? If settlers are so nice, they won't mind living in a Palestinian state and vice versa right? Afterall, they wanted to live in Palestinian land.
DanDan1993@reddit
"I assume it's propaganda" is all I need to hear... You're not even coming in good faith so why does it matter?
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
I said I can't open it. I gave it a shot. You're the one who's ignoring my points. Literally doing the "no politik here" when confronted with facts. Only thing left is calling me antisemitic.
DanDan1993@reddit
So you are technology gapped, so you just shout "propaganda" instead of plain saying you can't open and ask for different source?
If you want an answer; Because the original 67 lines means moving again over a million people which is not realistic. You obviously have no idea what is considered a settlement (like the difference between say, Itamar and Pisgat Ze'ev) so you have no idea what it means to relocate some of them.
You are incredibly arguing in bad faith
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Feel free to provide a different one, I said that I can't open it. But if I were to give you a source, it wouldn't be a Czech one with a paywall lol.
I'm well aware of that. That's why I don't believe that a two state solution is possible. It would be great if the settlers could just stay where they are and live in a Palestinian state but we both know that isn't possible. How would a Palestinian state even look like? What land with equal population could even Israel trade? It's hard to argue in good faith when your proposal isn't even possible.
DanDan1993@reddit
Ynet isn't paywalled. You just can't find the x for the ads running.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Idk, maybe it doesn't run correctly on a phone. Can you adress my points?
DanDan1993@reddit
Negev, area C and Jordan valley has quite a lot of land that can be exchanged for settlements that can't be evicted. What is your idea then?
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
The Negev desert? Area C which is a part of Palestine already? Isn't Jordan valley also sparsely populated too?
One-state solution.
DanDan1993@reddit
Sparsely separated means it can be evicted like Israel evicted Yamit and like it evicted the Gaza strip.
You realize the majority of settlers are condensed in 4-5 locations?
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
It also means that the land has little to no value for the Palestinians. Why not atleast offer a city like Rahat?
Yes, I've seen the map. And I've seen the Israeli offers. None of them would make a sovereign Palestinian state with proper borders.
DanDan1993@reddit
Rahat is in the Negev desert, and is 99.9% Muslim beduin. I'm curious why did you pick rahat? Can you explain?
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
It's a semi-large non-Jewish city. Do you have better ideas to make the trade atleast somewhat fair?
DanDan1993@reddit
I mean I wouldn't mind but I doubt they would want that, from my small familirance of people from Rahat. I have a co worker who is originally from Rahat so I'll ask him what would they prefer.
Rahat has semi decent recruitment percentage to IDF with most of the elite soldiers fromtracker unib being from Rahat.
But It is in the Negev which means it has habitable lands which are suitable for exchanges.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
So how exactly is it fair to trade land with half a million people for a piece of empty land? I just don't really see that happening. Maybe atleast connect West Bank to Gaza and seperate Beer Sheeva?
DanDan1993@reddit
You realize the world isn't fair, right? Have that as your starting point.
So your idea was to force beduins to join a palestinian state just because it's for "empty lands"?
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Of course I don't. But this kind of a two-state solution will never lead to a lasting peace. Some Palestinians won't be satisfied with it, attacks on Israel will continue and Israel will slowly occupy it again. If that was to even happen in the first place, the radical settlers would probably assasinate whoever proposed it instead.
I think that Israel will sooner or later lose Western support. That's when we'll get a "fair" solution. But by that point, I'd assume only the one-state will be possible.
DanDan1993@reddit
And some Israelis won't be happy with a Palestinian state either, but guess what? both sides needs to compromise and deal with it
idk if we'll ever lose "western" (europe? us? UK? what about abraham accord nations?) support but it sure seems our government and its followers are hellbent on doing all it can to speedrun it in their last year of service
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
The idea Israel has held dear for decades is that they can simply murder their way to peace. They think that if they just brutalise Palestinians enough then the Palestinians will simply leave and Israel can have all that land and start expanding again.
Socraman@reddit
Sorry, I'm not a Zionist here. But these are not evidence for apartheid. Otherwise every country with ghettos and discrimination would be having apartheid. Latvia and Estonia would be having apartheid. USA would be having apartheid. France would be having apartheid. Spain would be having apartheid.
Apartheid in Israel is correctly used when talking about their occupied West Bank, not Israel proper.
Big_Red_Machine_1917@reddit
They're a lot like the cabinet of Imperial Japan at the end of the Second World War. Most of them are so deranged by conquest and racial supremacy that there is very little planning or control anymore, and it is hard to stop, even if it would be in Israel's interests to slow down a bit, and it would be seen as treason by large segments of society if someone with actual power suggested it.
Killeroftanks@reddit
actually this is slightly incorrect. Imperial Japan at the end had a 50/50 divide between continuing the war and ending it, the only reason why the pro military side didn't kill everyone on the pro peace side is thanks to the emperor sitting in on the meetings not instead of having his personal advisor do it for him.
As for the racial supremacy you can ironically blame the west for that, I mean Japan never had great ties with mainland Asia but that was normal thanks to everyone hating everyone, mostly for trying to invade each other. Japan just took it up a few too many notches by trying to copy the western empires, after all they viewed mainland Asians as sub humans and if Japan copied that then they too could enter into the big leagues and maybe not be bullied around. That just never happened and Japan kinda went too far down the road to turn around so thanks to American intervention causing another near country ending collapse (this time with the great depression, fun fact Japan was the second worst economy in the world thanks to that, Germany was in the first place) resulting in Japan wanting to re-enter it's isolation era it was pulled out of only a few hundred years ago. Just that they couldn't keep their empire fueled with the resources they controlled so they needed more, and conveniently everyone around them had said resources.
It's the reason why Japan teamed up with Germany. They were fighting the same enemies.
Then you got Italy who only joined up with Germany (who Mussolini really hated thanks to Hitler) thanks to the British and French rejecting his deal with Ethiopia. Man what the world would've turned out if that had happen.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
It was similar with the Nazi Germany too. If they just stopped with conquest in 1940/1941, they probably could've silently genocide the entire Europe from "subhuman" groups. But their supremacy and hatred of the Slavs which they considered subhuman ended up being their end.
In Israel's case, it's the Western support. A nation of supremacists just can't accept that the existence of their state is entirely reliant on someone else.
FudgeAtron@reddit
Yeah I read that and was like wtf Amsalem is the peacenik in the cabinet, we really have gone through the looking glass.
Also I'm loving that the Likud were trumpeting Zamir as their flag bearer when they appointed him and he's just turned around and been even more difficult for them than Halevi.
Private_HughMan@reddit
I firmly believe that Bibi's government allowed Oct 7th to happen. I don't think they knew exactly how bad it would be, but they knew it would be big. They had advanced warning from Egypt, the USA and their own military. They literally had the battle plans that Hamas was training for. Though in fairness, Hamas likely changed these plans slightly since the plans Israel had was for an earlier date. Seems like Hamas postponed but did not cancel. And Israel knew that it was probably some variation of that plan because IDF soldiers reporting from near Gaza said that they saw Hamas militants training in a way similar to the plans they intercepted. But not only did Israel ignore those warnings; not only did they allow a music festival to take place near what they knew was a dangerous location if any of their intel was correct; but they actually moved soldiers away from the Gaza border and into the West Bank in the days leading up to Oct 7.
oof-BidenGinsburged@reddit
You could literally come up with 100s of examples of Netanyahu creating conflict when things felt a little too peaceful. One of Likud's favorite "let's just cause a little murder and mayhem" tricks is sending far right politicians up to the temple mount (3rd holiest site in Islam). Naturally they send soldiers and clear out the Muslims first just so they can make a lot of people very very angry and hopefully get some people killed.
Nukes-For-Nimbys@reddit
Don't put down to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
When considering governments go further. If maintaining such a coverup would require them to do a better job of that then they do of anything else, it's not a coverup
3nterShift@reddit
Usually I'd be down for this line of thinking but not assuming malice when it comes to Israel is such a hilariously bad and uninformed take that I'm starting to question the validity of anything you claim to stand for. Israel is like NIMBYism on steroids, it's the lethal logical conclusion of these toxic attitudes.
catchcatchhorrortaxi@reddit
I really hate this thinking, especially when applied to governments because it’s all too often used to downplay the very real levels of malicious behaviour.
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
It's often more correct than giant conspiracies however. How often have governments failed the simplest of plans?
Crouteauxpommes@reddit
It's the Boris Johnson method. Let them think you're an idiot so that they don't realize you are doing it on purpose.
soowhatchathink@reddit
Idk there doesn't have to be a big coverup, it can just be weighing the priority for things.
The IOF are consistently committing atrocities in Gaza which go largely unmentioned by anyone in the Israeli government, so I don't think this would really require as much of a coverup as you might expect.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Question is, how many of those 'warnings' do they get a week?
Private_HughMan@reddit
When Egypt, the US and their own soldiers all give the same warning at the same time, I think it would stand out.
lightningbadger@reddit
Deliberate or not it's been exactly what they needed to do what they always wanted
waiver@reddit
Remember, it has been discovered that Israel records all calls in Gaza and the West Bank, and they also pulled soldiers from patrolling the border right before the attack began.
Mango2149@reddit
Smotrich pulled soldiers to protect west bank settler nut bags. It's not a plot, it was just hubris. Also the Israeli Kahanists are incredibly stupid people. In a twisted way if you want Israel to fall you should support people like Ben Gvir and Smotrich, the more power they get over the military and Mossad, the more failure will happen.
Electrical_Quality_6@reddit
I saw it happen and knew how serious it was and what was going on, but the fact that i was angry at israel in not dealing with the strip sooner i decided not to ring the warning bells so israel could experience one day of the savagery of the strip sooner so they could forever realize and remember the dire need in dealing with the strip once and for all.
it haunts my heart but the ignorance of the israelis before it was soul stifling and heart coldening. Not a day goes by where i dont think of the people lost but if i were to redo the events, still i would have said nothing the first day so you could finally realize the status quoe was unsustainable and deal with the strip once and for all and become a One Israel.
SirLadthe1st@reddit
Bro what are you smoking, holy shit
catchcatchhorrortaxi@reddit
I’m genuinely appalled by this commenter’s history. I think they might actually be unwell.
Electrical_Quality_6@reddit
im well thank you very much
Thug-shaketh9499@reddit
This can’t be real, wtf?
Theodosian_Walls@reddit
It reads like a copy-pasta.
That or they think they're speaking to Moses or something.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
He believes he knows the future…
Electrical_Quality_6@reddit
better believe it
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
"dealing with the strip" = genocide, apparently
BallisticFiber@reddit
No no no no, listen no no no no... we have a solution for this problem, a final one. in south park Randy voice
lampaupoisson@reddit
it’s time to take your meds
Maximum-Hall-5614@reddit
ThatMs a lot of fuckin words to admit you’re a genocidal Zionazi.
PerforatedPie@reddit
So you're saying it's your fault Israelis died?
plastickey2paradise@reddit
like a final solution?
cdnhistorystudent@reddit
This article from one year ago is still relevant:
Israeli Hostages Die So Netanyahu Can Keep His Coalition Alive
Glittering_Link_6650@reddit
God bless Donald Trump
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