Materialist dialectics relies on the concept that any Thing consists of a contradiction in which its component A contradicts component B, and there exists a solution to solve that contradiction. E.g.: a society in which there is wealth (A) and poverty (B), there exists a solution (socialism) to end that contradiction.
Quantum mechanics states any Thing can be both A and B simultaneously, and collapse into either A or B upon observation (Copenhagen interpretation, I believe?), which completely negates the possibility of the solution, which when expanded into the previous example, a “quantum mechanical” society with wealth (A) and poverty (B) can only ever collapse into one state of the wealthy existing without the poor, or vice versa, making the idea of socialism (where each class is made equal and made to equally benefit from society’s labour) impossible.
That is false in the sense that socialism/communism does not aim to make each class equal benefactors of society's labour but to effect a complete abolition of class division because if each participant were to be equal benefactors of social production then that would imply an abolition of the exploitive classes that naturally form due to social production.
word salad? sure. but they did actually write a coherent statement, it just assumes prior knowledge re marxist analysis.
I'm not a marxist, but I am a polisci student who will try to explain in easier terms:
- there are broadly two classes in marxist analysis: workers (the proletariat) and the bourgeoisie. these classes are defined by their relationship to capital (ie, the means of production). you can be very rich and still be a member of the proletariat, if you don't own capital.
- the bourgeoisie "make" their living through ownership of capital which allows them to gatekeep the working class. the working class does not own capital, and is compelled to bargain with the bourgeoisie for access. they must produce additional value beyond what they need for themselves, and this additional value becomes "profit" for the owner. this is an exploitative relationship.
- the central idea behind marxist socialism is to transfer the beneficial ownership of capital to the working class, so that there is no more bourgeoisie. instead, the workers will own the means of production, and this will end their exploitation
- hence, an abolition of class divisions. everyone will have the same relationship to capital
did any of this pan out in real life when communist parties tried? not really. are communist parties "real communists"? depends who you ask
I mean that's only the case if that's how you want to interpret material analysis. You could still say a society is an economic cat until its situation is observed. This is a perfectly feasible philosophy that does not negate the material analysis so much as preamble it.
Well, atoms (and their subatomic components) are quantum objects and to understand their characteristics and reactions, you need to understand quantum mechanics. It's just not necessary for understanding the concept in a very basic way, but to actually develop a functioning nuclear bomb, it is necessary.
That's why the people who developed the nuclear bomb were some of the most renowned quantum physicists to date.
Fake: tbh could be real but it requires fact checking and I couldn't be bothered
Gay: anon is thinking about small nut physics (it's funny because that's what nucleus literally means in Latin) (admittadly this joke would be funnier in a language where "nuclear" and "testicular" are the same word)
The Soviet Union did not completely reject quantum theory, but they did subject its philosophical interpretations to intense scrutiny and criticism. 🧐 The main conflict arose because the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, which was the most widely accepted theory in the West, appeared to contradict the core tenets of dialectical materialism, the official state philosophy.
Ideological Conflict
* Idealism vs. Materialism: Dialectical materialism posits that matter is a real, objective entity and the foundation of all reality. The Copenhagen interpretation, particularly the concept of wave-particle duality and the role of the observer in collapsing the wave function, was seen as "idealistic." It suggested that an electron doesn't have a single, definite state until it's measured, which seemed to deny the existence of a unique, real physical reality independent of observation.
* Determinism vs. Probability: The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics, which reduces physical prediction to a matter of chance, were seen as a rejection of scientific determinism. This conflicted with the Marxist-Leninist view that all phenomena are governed by predictable, material laws.
The Political Response
Despite these philosophical objections, the Soviet Union did not ban or purge quantum mechanics as a whole. This was largely because of the critical importance of the theory to the country's nuclear program. Soviet physicists, including prominent figures like Igor Tamm and Lev Landau, were essential for developing atomic weapons, and they could not do so without relying on the principles of quantum mechanics.
* Pragmatism over Dogma: The Soviet leadership, led by Stalin and his inner circle, ultimately prioritized the development of an atomic bomb for Cold War competition. While ideological campaigns targeted "bourgeois" and "idealistic" science, like the infamous Lysenkoism in biology that crippled genetics research, physics was largely spared this fate because it was deemed too crucial for national security.
* Alternative Interpretations: In response to the ideological pressure, some Soviet physicists, such as Dmitry Blokhintsev, developed an alternative "statistical interpretation" of quantum mechanics. This interpretation was presented as being more aligned with dialectical materialism by focusing on the properties of a large group (or ensemble) of particles rather than on the indeterminate behavior of a single particle. It was an effort to reconcile the mathematical formalism of the theory with the political demands of the state.
Just checked, some members of communist party tried to ban it, but quickly changed their mind after they were told it was required to create an atomic bomb. Soviet scientist actually used and contributed a lot to quantum physics.
The exact same happend with Computers and cybernetics. They rejected that as Imperialist and capitalist propaganda trying to turn workers into robots. Only in the 1970s did the USSR make a conscious decision to support and invest in Computer science and Cybernetics.... but even more so with Agriculture/Genetics/Biology.
Lysenkoism was a nutjob idea, that rejects genetics, Darwin and natural selection. They rejected the very concept of genes. Instead they believed that was all capitalist propaganda, and instead acquired traits can be inherited. So that an organism can improve itself, and that improvement would then be inherited by the next generation. In practice it looked like this : Lysenko exposed wheat to low humidity and bad weather conditions, hoping that it would gain resistance to cold weather and be able to prosper even without a lot of water. They hoped this would allow them to turn all of Siberia into a massive agricultural giant. In reality the wheat died. Lysenko also treated plants with chemical solutions in the hopes they would be trained ( basically giving steroids to plants ), which naturally did nothing and it was not inherited to create super-wheat. He also claimed that plants will not compete with their own species, so multiple seeds where planted in the same spot, which is naturally complete and utter lunacy ( and which was figured out at the dawn of agriculture 10000 years ago.... ). His ideas weren't just some fringe Communist-supported BS, it was the official state policy of the USSR to promote and practice Lysenkoism in the entire Soviet Bloc, including Warsaw Pact countries. It was naturally a clusterfuck and hampered agriculture ( aswell as science. Cell research and Neurophysiology were banned because of Lysenkoism ).
About 3000 biologists were imprisoned and dozens executed because they rejected Lysenkoism. After Stalin, Lysenkoism was quietly dropped by the Party.
The Soviets were completely behind the West when it came to Biology because of that. In engineering and rocketry for example the Soviets weren't behind, but in some other natural sciences they just screwed up massively because of ideology
State Planning Committee didn't really like the idea of automating themselves out of the workforce. So they didn't fund research of CS. Meanwhile, us companies were more than eager to automate their workers out of existence.
The SU, just like Nazi Germany, liked to pretend that they were using science to reach conclusions when in reality they just kept and threw out whatever felt right with their ideology until they were absolutely forced to (like the Soviets were with the Atom bomb).
to them quantum mechanics conflicted eith dialectical ideals
This makes no sense since their basic understanding of quantum mechanics would only make it seem even more so that quantum mechanics is a dialectical idea. How would a goverment official even percieve quantum mechanics if not through a dialectical lens?
Not really accurate, but it reminds me of something in a book I read about the negotiations between the major powers at the end of the second world war. Stalin used to characterize the differing strategies of the major powers as "algebra and arithmetic". He liked to see himself as a straightforward 2+2=4 thinker, while the allies were off in the weeds with their fancypants equations. This is ironic because he was completely full of shit, and was himself shrewdly calculating in oblique backstabby ways.
I don't know what my point is, but it is a recurring theme for the Soviet leadership to portray themselves as simple no nonsense people while engaging with every ideologically inconsistent trick in the book behind the scenes.
watergosploosh@reddit
How does quantum mechanics conflict with Marxism-Leninism?
Ozymandias_1303@reddit
It doesn't. Stalin's dictatorship does though, and he wanted to distract from that.
ElectroMagnetsYo@reddit
Materialist dialectics relies on the concept that any Thing consists of a contradiction in which its component A contradicts component B, and there exists a solution to solve that contradiction. E.g.: a society in which there is wealth (A) and poverty (B), there exists a solution (socialism) to end that contradiction.
Quantum mechanics states any Thing can be both A and B simultaneously, and collapse into either A or B upon observation (Copenhagen interpretation, I believe?), which completely negates the possibility of the solution, which when expanded into the previous example, a “quantum mechanical” society with wealth (A) and poverty (B) can only ever collapse into one state of the wealthy existing without the poor, or vice versa, making the idea of socialism (where each class is made equal and made to equally benefit from society’s labour) impossible.
gyunikumen@reddit
Ok Caesar
ElectroMagnetsYo@reddit
What the fuck did you just say to me? I should have my Legatus rip your tongue out for that
finnicus1@reddit
That is false in the sense that socialism/communism does not aim to make each class equal benefactors of society's labour but to effect a complete abolition of class division because if each participant were to be equal benefactors of social production then that would imply an abolition of the exploitive classes that naturally form due to social production.
ElectroMagnetsYo@reddit
Two sides of the same coin, making the classes equal is the same as destroying the classes themselves.
clotifoth@reddit
Word salad with no central claim to it.
"The sunrise is false in the sense that I didn't get to watch it today."
Tepid_Soda@reddit
word salad? sure. but they did actually write a coherent statement, it just assumes prior knowledge re marxist analysis.
I'm not a marxist, but I am a polisci student who will try to explain in easier terms: - there are broadly two classes in marxist analysis: workers (the proletariat) and the bourgeoisie. these classes are defined by their relationship to capital (ie, the means of production). you can be very rich and still be a member of the proletariat, if you don't own capital. - the bourgeoisie "make" their living through ownership of capital which allows them to gatekeep the working class. the working class does not own capital, and is compelled to bargain with the bourgeoisie for access. they must produce additional value beyond what they need for themselves, and this additional value becomes "profit" for the owner. this is an exploitative relationship. - the central idea behind marxist socialism is to transfer the beneficial ownership of capital to the working class, so that there is no more bourgeoisie. instead, the workers will own the means of production, and this will end their exploitation - hence, an abolition of class divisions. everyone will have the same relationship to capital
did any of this pan out in real life when communist parties tried? not really. are communist parties "real communists"? depends who you ask
finnicus1@reddit
This is explains my point perfectly✅
StormOfFatRichards@reddit
I mean that's only the case if that's how you want to interpret material analysis. You could still say a society is an economic cat until its situation is observed. This is a perfectly feasible philosophy that does not negate the material analysis so much as preamble it.
hikarinokaze@reddit
Unlike Marxism-Leninism, you actually need a brain to utilize quantum mechanics
forgettfulthinker@reddit
It says so
danielstover@reddit
Because it said so in the green text
Aphrel86@reddit
what about nuclear bombs do you need quantum mechanics to understand?
cell689@reddit
Well, atoms (and their subatomic components) are quantum objects and to understand their characteristics and reactions, you need to understand quantum mechanics. It's just not necessary for understanding the concept in a very basic way, but to actually develop a functioning nuclear bomb, it is necessary.
That's why the people who developed the nuclear bomb were some of the most renowned quantum physicists to date.
L31N0PTR1X@reddit
Exactly
AlarmingConfusion918@reddit
good thing there are no current world powers upending the institutions of science to fulfill ideologically motivated goals!
HawasYT@reddit
Fake: tbh could be real but it requires fact checking and I couldn't be bothered
Gay: anon is thinking about small nut physics (it's funny because that's what nucleus literally means in Latin) (admittadly this joke would be funnier in a language where "nuclear" and "testicular" are the same word)
iwasbatman@reddit
Gemini says:
The Soviet Union did not completely reject quantum theory, but they did subject its philosophical interpretations to intense scrutiny and criticism. 🧐 The main conflict arose because the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, which was the most widely accepted theory in the West, appeared to contradict the core tenets of dialectical materialism, the official state philosophy. Ideological Conflict * Idealism vs. Materialism: Dialectical materialism posits that matter is a real, objective entity and the foundation of all reality. The Copenhagen interpretation, particularly the concept of wave-particle duality and the role of the observer in collapsing the wave function, was seen as "idealistic." It suggested that an electron doesn't have a single, definite state until it's measured, which seemed to deny the existence of a unique, real physical reality independent of observation. * Determinism vs. Probability: The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics, which reduces physical prediction to a matter of chance, were seen as a rejection of scientific determinism. This conflicted with the Marxist-Leninist view that all phenomena are governed by predictable, material laws. The Political Response Despite these philosophical objections, the Soviet Union did not ban or purge quantum mechanics as a whole. This was largely because of the critical importance of the theory to the country's nuclear program. Soviet physicists, including prominent figures like Igor Tamm and Lev Landau, were essential for developing atomic weapons, and they could not do so without relying on the principles of quantum mechanics. * Pragmatism over Dogma: The Soviet leadership, led by Stalin and his inner circle, ultimately prioritized the development of an atomic bomb for Cold War competition. While ideological campaigns targeted "bourgeois" and "idealistic" science, like the infamous Lysenkoism in biology that crippled genetics research, physics was largely spared this fate because it was deemed too crucial for national security. * Alternative Interpretations: In response to the ideological pressure, some Soviet physicists, such as Dmitry Blokhintsev, developed an alternative "statistical interpretation" of quantum mechanics. This interpretation was presented as being more aligned with dialectical materialism by focusing on the properties of a large group (or ensemble) of particles rather than on the indeterminate behavior of a single particle. It was an effort to reconcile the mathematical formalism of the theory with the political demands of the state.
dirschau@reddit
Why are you asking a stripper about quantum mechanics.
She's a chemical engineer.
iwasbatman@reddit
TBH I just like when she explains things while sitting on my lap. She looks so cute!
Triplex_Gg@reddit
Man do some proper research
iwasbatman@reddit
Why? What's the problem of a quick summary to understand the post?
WiSeWoRd@reddit
So this is basically theatre kids thinking they know science better than actual scientists
Mental_Jeweler_3191@reddit
Philosophers, really.
Letters_to_Dionysus@reddit
ai is fine to start a topic but is not a substitute for real fact checking
Chesno4ok@reddit
Just checked, some members of communist party tried to ban it, but quickly changed their mind after they were told it was required to create an atomic bomb. Soviet scientist actually used and contributed a lot to quantum physics.
NotSovietSpy@reddit
It's true. To this day, physics students around the world are still haunted by the exercise books they generously left us.
Umak30@reddit
The exact same happend with Computers and cybernetics. They rejected that as Imperialist and capitalist propaganda trying to turn workers into robots. Only in the 1970s did the USSR make a conscious decision to support and invest in Computer science and Cybernetics.... but even more so with Agriculture/Genetics/Biology.
Lysenkoism was a nutjob idea, that rejects genetics, Darwin and natural selection. They rejected the very concept of genes. Instead they believed that was all capitalist propaganda, and instead acquired traits can be inherited. So that an organism can improve itself, and that improvement would then be inherited by the next generation. In practice it looked like this : Lysenko exposed wheat to low humidity and bad weather conditions, hoping that it would gain resistance to cold weather and be able to prosper even without a lot of water. They hoped this would allow them to turn all of Siberia into a massive agricultural giant. In reality the wheat died. Lysenko also treated plants with chemical solutions in the hopes they would be trained ( basically giving steroids to plants ), which naturally did nothing and it was not inherited to create super-wheat. He also claimed that plants will not compete with their own species, so multiple seeds where planted in the same spot, which is naturally complete and utter lunacy ( and which was figured out at the dawn of agriculture 10000 years ago.... ). His ideas weren't just some fringe Communist-supported BS, it was the official state policy of the USSR to promote and practice Lysenkoism in the entire Soviet Bloc, including Warsaw Pact countries. It was naturally a clusterfuck and hampered agriculture ( aswell as science. Cell research and Neurophysiology were banned because of Lysenkoism ).
About 3000 biologists were imprisoned and dozens executed because they rejected Lysenkoism. After Stalin, Lysenkoism was quietly dropped by the Party.
The Soviets were completely behind the West when it came to Biology because of that. In engineering and rocketry for example the Soviets weren't behind, but in some other natural sciences they just screwed up massively because of ideology
outland_king@reddit
Sounds luke Stalin was just a contraband to western beliefs , even if they were pants on head stupid.
The_National_Razor@reddit
I've heard of this in a video talking about a project to domesticate foxes using darwin's theory of natural selection.
The project had to be hidden under pretenses of "leading the foxes to develop better fur".
Nowadays, this laboratory has helped in making breakthroughs in understanding evolution and genetics.
So, the USSR's totalitarianism and dogmatism was stupid beyond belief.
InsoPL@reddit
State Planning Committee didn't really like the idea of automating themselves out of the workforce. So they didn't fund research of CS. Meanwhile, us companies were more than eager to automate their workers out of existence.
LordBelacqua3241@reddit
Stalin was a WH40K orc making nukes work by believing they will
Naive_Drive@reddit
Soviet Union was stupid regarding quantum theory and Lysenkoism.
Mao had the four pests campaign.
Capitalism has climate change.
THEPIGWHODIDIT@reddit
Stalin: "The world will be flat when I'm done with it"
jhjh300@reddit
USSR so cheap, they partitioning and rationing atoms now.
Scorpio_198@reddit
The SU, just like Nazi Germany, liked to pretend that they were using science to reach conclusions when in reality they just kept and threw out whatever felt right with their ideology until they were absolutely forced to (like the Soviets were with the Atom bomb).
soiboi64@reddit
Chat, it this true or a psyop?
Klactech@reddit
Just like anything related to cold war probably a psyop
avagrantthought@reddit
This makes no sense since their basic understanding of quantum mechanics would only make it seem even more so that quantum mechanics is a dialectical idea. How would a goverment official even percieve quantum mechanics if not through a dialectical lens?
DripRoast@reddit
Not really accurate, but it reminds me of something in a book I read about the negotiations between the major powers at the end of the second world war. Stalin used to characterize the differing strategies of the major powers as "algebra and arithmetic". He liked to see himself as a straightforward 2+2=4 thinker, while the allies were off in the weeds with their fancypants equations. This is ironic because he was completely full of shit, and was himself shrewdly calculating in oblique backstabby ways.
I don't know what my point is, but it is a recurring theme for the Soviet leadership to portray themselves as simple no nonsense people while engaging with every ideologically inconsistent trick in the book behind the scenes.
ninetailedoctopus@reddit
Smekalka Science!
Glittering-Hat-4112@reddit
"If the Soviets were so goddamn smart where are they now?" In fucking history books for a reason. Same with the stupid fucking Nazi's.
UpsetPhilosopher4661@reddit
these guys are so cheap they're trying to split an atom