Why is London salary so low for some highly technical roles?
Posted by Aggravating-Net-7685@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 282 comments
My engineering and architect friends are pulling in 35k a year as a fresh grad, it’s a very demanding and technical job where you have to visit sites occasionally. Another technical artist I know is making 30-34k per year.
One of the most non technical guy I know, without any degree qualification, works as an office admin making 37k. All he does is responding to emails few times a day, and schedule meetings. For the most of the days, he would just lay back at home and enjoy his coffee.
Its a consensus that everyone has a low salary. But how is this fair for people who went through four years of technical undergrad studies, took out huge chunk of loan, grinded through endless nights of exams and studies, just to get pay such minimal salary?
PepsiMaxSumo@reddit
The office manager job on £37k is the ceiling/top of the ladder, there isn’t room for growth in that same role other than annual inflation based pay rises. They can be promoted into other roles, but the next job is a new job
The engineer or architect is at the bottom on the ladder. Once chartered will likely be on £70k in London, and then with 20 years experience can command lots of money as a contractor, or go into leadership and earn a similar whack. It’s still the same job just more senior as you evolve professionally.
Learning is for life, and the technical people should be constantly learning new technical things for at least the first 30 years of their careers as they advance upwards.
Lost-Actuary-2395@reddit
Furthermore, an engineer far less likely to be under threat of ai
PepsiMaxSumo@reddit
I’d say engineering is one of the most threatened jobs for AI, considering engineers haven’t done calculations manually in decades. People will always want a person telling them the design is safe though.
Think about how many draftsmen we used to have to make 1 minor change to a design before autocad was invented and did that change in milliseconds.
No_Vegetable2050@reddit
What? We haven't? Manual calculations are still an absolute staple of the engineering process in most disciplines/industries.
I work as a mechanical structures engineer, what I will say is that AI is becoming increasingly brilliant at the more basic calculations, and gets 90% of things right in even more complex questions. And by 90%, I mean it gets 0% of complex questions right, but 90% of the steps/calcs correct and fucks up somewhere.
It's brilliant for making a template of a calculation, then checking/correcting. And stealing the sources from. It's also good for ideas on how to tackle a particular problem.
For it to replace me, it will need to reach AGI level. There's just too much severity associated with mistakes or oversights to trust it blindly, until intelligence surpasses humans.
Many problems I face do not always have obvious answers. Engineering judgment is still a huge part of analysis. Many times, I have to consult with other subject matters experts to arrive at a group consensus.
Until AGI, it will remain an increasingly useful tool which increases productivity. After AGI, well that's a different world altogether, and almost certainly requires a "man out of loop" recursive improvement AI to achieve. Keeping my job will be the least of my worries.
A-flea@reddit
Absolutely not. £35k is an average fresh part three salary (10 years of education). £70k is director money or successful self-employed earnings.
TPFNSFW@reddit
Can’t speak for architects but any degree’d engineer 10yo experienceon £35k salary is being conned, that is by no means a competitive market wage. Would expect £45k-£80k depending on personal quality, field of expertise and professional registration.
potatogamin@reddit
In my soon to be industry getting chartered gains you around 20k more minimum in some areas
Wranglatang@reddit
Outside of accounting (I’d guess) 20k minimum could be a bit of a stretch just for chartership alone in a lot of industries. Don’t get your hopes up too much.
ihatethis2022@reddit
Yes I'm realising this about my latest one. Tho it's another few years of study and I don't really care about learning it.
I'd get similar moving to a manager role with the experience. Plus they don't have any higher paid roles that don't involve managing people.
I'd have to switch industries entirely or go back to consulting
Engineer__This@reddit
I’m not sure about architects, but for an Engineer you can earn much more than this.
Director level at a decent sized engineering firm will be on over £100k easily.
A-flea@reddit
Just updated my post to give you a better idea. It's been dire since the early 90s.
happybaby00@reddit
Or you can go to the gulf and make 160k+.
ihatethis2022@reddit
Yeh but then you have to live there
happybaby00@reddit
Nothing comes without sacrifice if you have no dependants, it's a great option.
ihatethis2022@reddit
If you don't then its not an option.
happybaby00@reddit
It is, they'll put you in a compound with other expats in a western style private school with British/EU/CAN/AUS/USA system.
But you're the usual on Reddit who hasn't been to these places and thinks it's the 50s over there...
St2Crank@reddit
I know you’re defending it and saying it’s great, but you’re actually making it sound worse.
happybaby00@reddit
No if you want a western like lifestyle, they have it for you. Like I said if you haven't been you wouldn't get it.
St2Crank@reddit
I completely get it, they have gated communities with bars, restaurants, schools etc. I’m saying it sounds shit.
ihatethis2022@reddit
A compound sounds dreadful even to start with. My grandad came from south africa. Not a fan of compounds, being locked in for my own safety doesn't appeal as a concept.
mothsugar@reddit
Depends how much you like your dependants.
ihatethis2022@reddit
And SO. Who would be treated very differently there and simply not go. I've had some offers of 4x my salary but I can't do it.
Dad made great money on the rigs but as a kid all I noticed was when he was gone.
Complex_Bother832@reddit
Don’t think these jobs exist apart from in oil and gas?
happybaby00@reddit
They do, it's for their long terms infustructure projects since oil and gass won't be profitable forever
hulmesweethulme@reddit
lol where are you getting these salaries from? The almost retired sharp elbowed geniuses at my (large) architects firm are barely on 70k. We work our entire lives to get that. Most of us don’t ever make it above 45k because it’s so competitive.
PepsiMaxSumo@reddit
Was going off mates of mine from my mech eng course who have said they are now chartered and have said they’re on £55k+ in the north and assumed a London weighting. People may be uplifting their pay though
ramirezdoeverything@reddit
Newly chartered engineers would be lucky to be on more than £50k-55k in London
Commercial-Pear-543@reddit
In theory, a lot of engineering roles have high ceilings so it just starts very poorly. Graduates are typically seen as cheap labour and do serve a purpose propping up certain companies.
Also you’re comparing people at different points in their career.
Answering a few emails usually - unless you’re particularly stellar or underselling the rest of your role - has a much lower ceiling than an engineer or an architect.
Your grad friends are at their minimum, your other friend is likely at his maximum.
gogybo@reddit
Yep. To put some numbers on it, when I left [big aerospace company] a few years ago, the midpoint salary for an experienced engineer was just over £50k. A new grad could expect to reach that grade within 10 years or so, after which they could progress either as a manager or as a specialist and earn more (if they were good enough).
The salaries still aren't as good as some other countries, but if you're working for one of these big OEMs you've got a stable and relatively comfortable career for as long as you want it which is worth a lot in and of itself.
Racing_Fox@reddit
I’m not gonna lie, as an engineering postgrad the thought of it taking a decade until I’m at the midpoint is perhaps the single most depressing thing I’ve read all day.
50k isn’t even a good salary these days either like sure it’s more than average but you’re still barely able to afford a house at that wage. I was having a good day up till now.
TrainPristine@reddit
What kind of engineer? If you're good, it will get better than that and quicker .I didn't even go to uni to be an engineer, I got a business degree and I retrained to be an engineer through a boot camp. My first job was 35k which sucked for sure. Then a year later I decided to go for mid level at another company, told them I was on a higher salary and went to 60. Then 2 years later when I wasn't progressing but doing the work I said fuck it and applied for a senior role at another company and said I was on 75, got an offer of 85. And most recently 1 year later am on 100. Well, I make sure it stays below the self reporting amount. But what I'm saying is engineering is one of those great roles where you don't sell yourself you sell your skills. So if you're good, just lie about your previous salary and have a great interview. Felt like an imposter each time but I know if I told my company today that i am leaving, they would do anything to make me stay.
ElevatorVarious6882@reddit
If you want another data point I have a 1st in Electronics engineering from a russel group uni, a PhD in instrumentation/semiconductor physics then 3 years as a postdoc in the same field and then 10 years experience as an embedded electronics and firmware engineer in the automotive industry.
Just made 50k this year with a pay rise.
TrainPristine@reddit
Is this in the UK?
ElevatorVarious6882@reddit
England.
Racing_Fox@reddit
It’s shocking isn’t it
TrainPristine@reddit
Wow, English salaries are garbage. You would be making over 200k in America and that's just a small city, somewhere like sfo or NY would be double that. UK is shit.
BowiesFixedPupil@reddit
Well it's not a bad salary for someone 4 or 5 years out of Uni mate (I get you mention 10 in your post but it ain't taking a decent engineer 10 years to earn that).
Then there's plenty of senior positions if you're keen and smart.
£30k out of Uni is not bad money. £50k 5 years later isn't bad either.
UK has an issue with poverty salaries, absolutely no doubt. You'll be absolutely fine though.
MegaJackUniverse@reddit
I disagree. 30k after a postgrad is terrible money. It's fine for a graduate maybe
SuperTekkers@reddit
I don’t see why a masters should command a significantly higher salary tbh. Experience in your field is almost always more important
Pericombobulator@reddit
Experience wins over a Masters every time.
Even in a vocational degree, what you learn will be so general. When you start work you will know close to fuck all and your new colleagues will need to teach you the ropes. (A good mentor can set you up for life).
At most, a masters might make your cv stand out a bit over the competition's.
Racing_Fox@reddit
Yes, but the point is you have exactly the same experience or less as a graduate going for the same job….
Pericombobulator@reddit
I have done a vocational degree. It doesn't prove your knowledge as much as it proves you have the determination and ability to get a degree. (And yes, i still knew fuck all when I landed in the real world).
It's obviously field-dependent, but most employers are just looking for useful people to fill roles, with as little fuss as possible. They aren't particularly looking for a masters, and often not even a degree. They just want someone to just slot into their organisation, to pick up whatever workload and run with it.
Racing_Fox@reddit
I’m not suggesting that you know anything as a graduate, you don’t.
But taking 10 years after doing a postgrad to get to an ok wage is a bit of a joke when you can go and get a six figure job in the US
Pericombobulator@reddit
We might be talking at crossed purposes. I am simply saying people are better off saving their 'Masters' money and getting out and working. The opportunities to earn that extra expenditure back are scarce.
MegaJackUniverse@reddit
Depends of the topic sure, but a masters is supposed to make your skill set even more focused towards a certain industry. They sometimes have an industry collaboration element and teach you things you can directly apply in industry like familiarity with niche software or something. There is, or should be, a reason a masters is not considered simply a longer bachelors degree
Commercial-Pear-543@reddit
If the graduate scheme doesn’t require a masters, they won’t pay you more for having one.
On a purely financial basis, it’s not worth the investment in a masters or PhD unless you know you need it/can guarantee a leg up.
Racing_Fox@reddit
At a graduate scheme level the experience will likely be the same…
Valuable-Mission9203@reddit
Yes it is, the cumulative inflation over the past few years has been crazy.
Charming-Clock-3651@reddit
Id strongly disagree, 30k is a shit salary for a stem grad just leaving university. It was an ok salary 2018, but not in 2025 after years of heavy inflation
pajamakitten@reddit
Yet people get mad when nurses strike and ask for a better salary.
el1iot@reddit
It's been 30k since I can remember - since about 2010. It's insane
el1iot@reddit
Through job hopping for chartered Engineer level roles my group have reached the low to mid 60ks in about 12 years - doable but very tough. Others still stuck around the 40k mark
Elastichedgehog@reddit
Our perspectives are so fucked.
Adjusted for inflation, assuming £30,000 was a 'decent' salary in 2010, you would be earning about £46,000.
Racing_Fox@reddit
The thing is though, I was earning 40k over the summer as an undergrad driving trucks. It took me one week and £1500 to get that job it’s crazy.
It’s not just the bad wages, I wouldn’t mind if everything else was lower too but if you want a house in my area you’re looking 400k+ and I’m not even in London, I t’s actually insane. At 50k today you’re barely able to afford one. 50k in 5 years, with house prices predicted to increase by 21.6% I’m going to live my life just behind the curve.
Turns out we are the screwed generation
gogybo@reddit
As someone else said, job hopping can get you further, faster. Plus - I'll just say it, you've probably guessed who I'm on about anyway - Rolls-Royce aren't known for their high salaries even compared to other big OEMs, but their pension scheme somewhat makes up for it (when I left they would double your contribution, so if you put in 6% (the max) they would put in 12%).
Racing_Fox@reddit
Yeah that’s fair enough, we are going to need hefty private pensions at this rate.
Depending which site you’re at you might be able to sympathise with my concerns of salaries compared to Bristol house prices lol
Jbl7561@reddit
I knew when you said about house prices in another comment that you were talking about Bristol - but 400k isn't necessary. I bought my 2 bed flat for 200k last year, a mate just bought an end terrace with two bathrooms and a driveway for 345k in Jan and another friend paid 280k at the end of last year for a 2 bed mid terrace house. We're all single humans and only one of the three of us have a degree, so it is achievable. Salaries Vs house costs are ridiculous and Bristol is especially a problem, but it is well within reach for a competent engineer a few years into their career.
Fit-Instruction9917@reddit
A single person buying a 345k house is far from normal. Either a ludicrous income or ludicrous deposit.
Jbl7561@reddit
345 less 10% deposit is 310.5 / 4.5 is a 69k salary - he's a 38yo software engineer 15 years into his career so I'd assume he's probably on more than that, & it's his first property but he's a bit older right so he likely saved up more than a 10% deposit. That calculates out at a decent salary but doesn't seem super unreasonable unless I'm being massively out of touch?
Racing_Fox@reddit
Yeah flats aren’t a problem, I’ve got a one bed, but really need something bigger and absolutely need something with a garage that has power.
Honestly part of the issue is that I want to stay where I know. I know and like in north Bristol, we moved out of where we knew because there was nothing else available and while our street is fine the amount of crime around here is insane it feels rough as fuck. I hear a helicopter and I make sure the door is locked or I drive to work past another smashed in window at the local shop and I’m not even surprised anymore. Afaik this isn’t even a ‘rough’ area lol. Perhaps I just got lucky (or unlucky, depends how you look at it) where I grew up
Commercial-Pear-543@reddit
It’s not taking a decade anymore for a lot of engineering companies to reach £50k. You’re looking at 3-5 years if you’re in a company that’s large and with a reasonable work/life balance.
If you’re job hopping through start-ups and higher demand roles it can go faster (this is all a non-London perspective from someone with a partner and several close friends in engineering).
Engineering is a broad term of course, so also deeply depends on what you’re doing.
Famous-Print-6767@reddit
As an Australian grad 6 years ago I made $130k first year. With some overtime.
I have no idea how you people put up with it.
Top-Car-808@reddit
this is the reason that skilled labour is pouring out of the UK (some to Australia) and unskilled (or no skilled) labour is pouring into the UK.
The rewards for doing nothing are some of the highest in the world in the UK, and the rewards for doing skilled work is some of the lowest.
We should not be in the least bit surprised that people relocate to where they can get the best rewards for what they offer, whether that is not working or working.
gogybo@reddit
Well...fuck. That's depressing.
Still doing those boat trips for a tenner?
slade364@reddit
Interesting. Comparing to automotive OEM, particularly JLR/AML because I know their salary bands the best, you could be on mid-50s within 3-4 years post-grad.
Despite regularly redundancies, if you're half decent it's been a relatively stable career environment. Suspect more turbulent in the future though.
Suspect the likes of BAE (anything involving SC/DV) clearance pays well too, and secure given the impractical nature of replacing people.
sloppyfeashes@reddit
slade364@reddit
Ah.. Software roles in manufacturing rarely pay well in comparison to their tech counterparts tbh, but that is especially low!
mata_dan@reddit
Yes. I'm in an office of software engineers who turn down amazon recruiters and the likes then take the piss out out them and we are on 50-80k.
A lot of people exaggerate salaries or don't properly weight them up against stability and quality of life in the job.
Electronic-Okra1228@reddit
This is why so many engineers go into finance. After 4 years I was earning £65k and after 6 I hit over £100k. The engineering degree is brilliant, just unfortunate it’s not because it leads to a well paid long term career in engineering if in the UK.
Commercial-Pear-543@reddit
Welcome to the dark side! I left teaching for it
I think the raw disparity between US and UK engineering salaries probably sums up how undervalued engineers are in the UK. Just crazy to think about really.
MargThatcher12@reddit
Wanna hear what sounds like a sick joke?
Did my BSc (3 years), MSc (1 year), PgCert (1 Year), and currently work as a psychological practitioner in the NHS.
30k is my ceiling, 37 if I stay in this role for another 4 years, which I don’t plan on. If I wanted to move up a band I would have to go back to uni and practically completely retrain as a nurse, social worker, or OT.
5 years of study, 3 years of clinical experience, and still I’m at my ceiling unless I go back.
To me this definitely seems like a sick joke.
Charming-Clock-3651@reddit
Surely you knew that when you decided to train for the role though?
MargThatcher12@reddit
Actually no!
So when studying my BSc and MSc there was no mention that in the NHS there are only those 3 core professions + Therapists that can work as band 6 or above in mental health. I didn’t find this out until I was already in my NHS post.
To make matters worse, we were initially told our training for the NHS role would be accredited, and then we would have been able to move up a band.
However, accreditation got scrapped so it’s either stay on this role, move to a different role and most likely take a pay cut, go back to uni for 3 years to retrain, or pay 9k myself to pay for therapist training.
Charming-Clock-3651@reddit
But surely you thought to Google what salary you would be on before taking on £40,000 of debt? I feel like you can't just shirk responsibility for failing to do the most basic 5 minutes worth of research
MargThatcher12@reddit
Because the intention isn’t to stay as a band 5 staff in the NHS??
The plan is work to clinical psychology, but as you may (or may not) know they are very very very competitive. This means I have to have many years of clinical experience under my belt before I can apply, which means having to work in many roles.
So me, a psychology student at the time, wouldn’t know what roles a nurse, OT, or social worker would be able to get, because I didn’t train in those fields obviously. What I knew is that with psych degrees you can work as a PWP, EMHP, YIPP, or AP, which I what I aimed for as a stepping stone.
What I didn’t know is that to be an MHP (band 6+), all your psychology degrees and experience are essentially useless.
Tell me, does that make sense in your head? 5 years of education in mental health & psychology + 2.5 years of clinical practice all discredited because I didn’t choose a different field that often has little to do with mental health/psychology?
It is an educators role to support and prepare students for actual real life practice. If mentioning the stringent red tape, that neither me nor most of my colleagues knew about, isn’t part of their role then who is to prepare students for real life work?
Charming-Clock-3651@reddit
Honestly, no I wouldn't expect my course to teach me anything beyond the syllabus. Id also definitely have planned out my intended career path prior to graduating, and definitely would have checked in with people on linked in with similar roles to understand what skills or qualifications I need. Everything you said there just makes it sound like you didn't really know what you were doing, and you are now upset that it didn't work out perfectly
MargThatcher12@reddit
I get what you’re saying, my ideas and goals for what area of psych I want to pursue has changed many times, which hasn’t been a help. Plus, it is the students responsibility to know what they’re going into for a career. However, even if I did check those things whilst doing my degree it wouldn’t have helped, as I would have still had to re-train and start a new BSc from scratch.
I just wish there was more transparency around it, and I do still think it’s a partial responsibility of educators to prepare students for their next step. If it’s not the educators who do that then who would? School teachers prepare us for college, and guide us through applications. College tutors prepare us for uni and guide us through UCAS applications etc. Why would this change once it gets to university, especially when you have a 1-to-1 supervisor who is aware of your goals and next steps?
I’m not saying it’s completely the educators responsibility and they should do it all for you, but some better guidance would have been nice to have 5 years ago lol
Unfortunately again because of red tape that’s not an option for me. The post I’ve trained is was originally going to be accredited by the BACP, but around midway through we got informed that there will be no new cohorts of this role and thus no accreditation. Without accredited training you can’t have a professional registration, can’t hold risk, and therefore can’t work as a therapist or mental health practitioner.
There is the option for me to go back and retrain, or hold out until another NHS training post comes up, but you can’t probably imagine that isn’t a very thrilling set of options lol
pajamakitten@reddit
That does not make it OK though. Allied health professionals are treated like crap by the NHS as it is, we should be paid commensurate to our skill level.
FScrotFitzgerald@reddit
NHS salaries are awful.
ebbs808@reddit
I had the same sort of experience. I did a 6-week course to become a tree surgeon 15 years later. I'm now on closer to 60. It's madness
becooldocrime@reddit
In my experience it’s not necessarily that they’re cheap labour - taking on grads creates a pretty big overhead for managers and more experienced members of a team.
The knowledge picked up at uni obviously provides the foundation knowledge for the role, but that doesn’t cleanly translate to joining the workforce and actually doing the job. Graduate roles (particularly in STEM) are basically training roles and I think the compensation pretty fairly reflects that in general.
Commercial-Pear-543@reddit
Very true, and a very good point. I mean I did an accounting qualification through my grad scheme and they paid for absolutely all of it (on top of what was a humble but probably fair salary).
That perspective gap is all the nonsense info they feed you on your way to uni. I can absolutely remember being told you’d basically walk into a job with the prestige of having a degree (my parents thankfully brought me right back down to earth about that). This was a decade ago mind, hopefully they’re better about it now.
Interesting-Sky-7014@reddit
Grad engineers are largely not very useful initially. After 1 to 2 years. Very useful for assistance. 3 to 5 years, can handle some scopes with just a brief. 5 to 10 years. Can lead studies, handle client interactions/ meetings etc.
Salary ranges though aren’t that wide. By 8 years I think the salary would have doubled and then only minor increases.
Architects are savagely underpaid.
Most engineers are also terribly paid.
kimsabok@reddit
youre in the wrong type of engineering sector.
financial engineering is where the money is at
CodeToManagement@reddit
Architecture pays rubbish in this country. Someone earning 35k is already doing well in the profession.
sgst@reddit
Wife is an architect with 10 years experience and an associate director of the practice. 42k.
That's after 5 years full time study and 2 years in industry getting the final qualification. It's ridiculous.
The reasons are varied and complex (I also work in the sector), but it boils down to deregulation in the 80s that's led to 40 years of undercutting each other, and the rise of contractors (aka big scale builders) doing the job of architects in house and being able to hide the cost as an overhead - against the very explicit cost of hiring an an architect. Ie people think they can save costs by not hiring an architect and just using a contractor, but they still pay someone to do the work one way or the other. The main problem there is only the title of 'architect' is protected, not the job itself (like how you can't practice medicine without a medical license). In other places around the world it's still a protected profession, and unsurprisingly the pay is better. The frustrating thing is everyone laments how buildings these days all look the same and are rubbish, cookie cutter boxes - but nobody wants to pay for good design. That's the other real crux of the issue - how do you convince people that their building looking nicer or working slightly better is worth the extra investment when everybody has been tightening their belts for 15 years.
Pericombobulator@reddit
The change has been led by the Client's attitude to risk. The architect used to be the top of the tree and contractors used to build to their designs. But there were inevitably gaps in their work and the client was obliged to pay for them.
There has been a wholesale move to D&B contracts, with the contractors pushed to take on all risks. The clients simply get a planning approval and then leave the contractor to finish the design and fill in the gaps. It has meant that architects are now just another subcontractor to the contractor.
And the nature of the work means that skilled labour in India or Vietnam can do the CAD work, thereby reducing costs (or incentive to pay UK architects or technicians more).
CodeToManagement@reddit
Yea same situation. Wife is also an architect with about the same experience. It’s shocking it’s a career that pays so low with so much effort required to qualify.
miserablegit@reddit
Architecture pays rubbish everywhere, because it's a sector with very low demand and very high offer.
LitmusPitmus@reddit
british salaries in general tbh
Teji0104@reddit
The upper end is actually pretty damn good, but you have to be good enough, and have the guts, to job jump relatively frequently. It's a scary prospect, because everyone has bills and you're essentially throwing yourself from one probationary period to another, with very little comfort in between.
The simple fact is that, we expect payrises to keep us all in good financial health because that's a reasonable thing to expect. The truth is, the average person was receiving inflation level payrises for a long time, and now most people are likely receiving sub-inflation level pay rises.
LiveCheapDieRich@reddit
Job hopping (less than 2yrs tenure) is increasingly becoming a red flag for most of our clients now.
We're seeing a lot more requests of "make sure they've been promoted within- and noy found a new job to achieve a pay rise"
WS8SKILLZ@reddit
What a silly request. I haven’t stayed at a company for longer than two years and it has contributed massively to my development as a professional. Each business and job is unique giving me more skills every time that I use in my next occupation.
New_Line4049@reddit
Yeah... thats great for you, but not the company as they now have the cost, time and hassle of finding a new employee again. They've hardly got their moneys worth.
WS8SKILLZ@reddit
They absolutely have. I hit the ground running in all my jobs. If the company aren’t prepared to give me pay rises higher than inflation then that’s their problem.
New_Line4049@reddit
Sure. And thats why theyre looking for people that arent changing jobs for better pay, because it IS theyre problem, and they are solving it by changing the type of people they employ. Theres nothing unreasonable in what you're doing, but theres also nothing unreasonable in companies not wanting to partake in that. Theres plenty of people out there that'll gladly whatever the company decide to give them and won't go looking elsewhere. These people are more beneficial from the companies perspective so its not unreasonable to try and recruit that kind of person.
WS8SKILLZ@reddit
Your right. They will limit themselves however for the sake of saving money.
New_Line4049@reddit
Yes. They exist to make money. Doing things to further their reason for existing is not silly.
DenormalHuman@reddit
job hopping past 50 is a risky business though
Top-Car-808@reddit
just being over 50 is a risky business!
27106_4life@reddit
Upper end is nothing compared to the US or Northern Europe
No_Scheme5951@reddit
You're still not taking the difference in cost of living in those places into account. A small increase in your pay won't help you when your living costs go up by 40%. Probably more if you move to northern Europe.
luckless666@reddit
Yeah job hopping is the only way to reasonably get decent pay rises. I’ve been in my company for a while now so pace has slowed (needed the security as had a baby), but I know what I was earning when I started my career in 2008 and between then and now I’ve averaged 10% annual pay rises between job hopping and promotions.
If you stay at the same level in the same company, you won’t get a decent pay rise.
Valuable_Ad9554@reddit
Definitely not true everywhere, in 6ish years I've gone from base 29k to base 100k+ with the same company. Some of my raises came with promotion, some without.
luckless666@reddit
There will always be exceptions to the rule but in general terms, the vast majority will see better results moving around.
pajamakitten@reddit
Not great for those of us in the public sector. Apart from London-weighted wages, I get the same pay from Land's End to John O'Groats.
New_Line4049@reddit
Minimum wage is not decent. Certainly not if you live in the south, Im paid a little above the national average these days and just about managing, no idea how someone on minimum wage could survive, having had to find a new place to rent recently even the cheapest options would virtually wipe out your monthly income on minimum wage, before even thinking about food and other bills. Even house shares around here are not much cheaper than the cheapest non shared options, and any level of pay that forces you to share living space cannot be viewed as decent in any case.
CowDontMeow@reddit
Minimum wage is high enough now that my previously “okay” (when we hit bonus) job was worth it, with the recent bump and changes to the bonus structure I’m effectively on minimum wage, makes me wonder why I bust my arse from 07:30-17:00 running a department solo whilst getting better results and figures than the same department in different branches (where they employ two people). I enjoy my job but I could honestly hop over to Tesco for the same money and probably better career paths at this point.
Rant over, I was kinda alluding that minimum wage is “liveable-ish” and most roles haven’t increased their wage to reflect the rises.
Flyhotstuff@reddit
Good luck hopping to Tesco these days
Chris-TT@reddit
We definitely don’t get paid anywhere near as much as we should towards the top when compared to America. The only reason I’m okay with that to an extent is that we pay a decent minimum wage and don’t have people living out of cars like a lot of harder-up people in America. I’m not saying it’s a perfect model in any sense, but at least things are a bit more equal.
Boogerchair@reddit
Is it though when everyone is underpaid? Even the £40-50k salaries that are considered good in the UK are barely entry level salaries in the US. The difference in social services don’t even begin to cover the gap.
PhantomDP@reddit
US also has a much higher cost of living
Boogerchair@reddit
Not once your necessities are covered. Sure, there’s a higher baseline cost of living, but it’s not like everything is magically more expensive after that. The additional income can go towards traveling, hobbies, luxury items, or anything else people want outside food and shelter. My point being that the goal isn’t to just exist and want less.
New_Line4049@reddit
Salaries dont have to be "fair". Its buisness. The goal is to make money. All they HAVE to be is legal. That means they'll offer the lowest pay they legally can, and then up it until someone is willing to do that job for the offered pay. (Ok, they dont always start at minimum wage, they'll take a best guess at the bottom end of where they might get someone willing to work and start there) That means ultimately the pay will stay low as there'll always be someone that needs money and has to take a low paying job.
gororuns@reddit
Engineers and architects are indeed quite poorly paid in this country, its how the construction industry is set up, and when the country is not building enough houses, then of course the demand for those jobs also reduce. On the other hand, finance and tech does pays well in London, that's just where the money is.
Guy1905@reddit
British salaries are awful in general.
We do get mediocre healthcare and horrendous weather though so you have to factor that in.
Honestly if you can leave just run man. Everyone I speak to says they want to leave. People join my company from overseas but they don't stay more than a year.
If you have the option to work abroad then you should jump at it.
ladysun1984@reddit
British salary level is generally one of the worst in the developed world.
VisibleOil5420@reddit
It's not the complexity of the job, rather how much money it directly contributes to.
Gerrydealsel@reddit
Supply and demand. More supply = lower prices.
VolcanicBear@reddit
That's probably it. I work for an international company with a London office, and am 100% remote. My salary is not that low.
Scribbio@reddit
What's the secret to staying fully remote when most companies are requiring staff back into the office?
Slight_Ad_4810@reddit
Remote working can be a bit weird, lots of companies see the benefit of hiring nationally (and internationally (I've even seen US companies hiring in the UK as we're cheaper!))
VolcanicBear@reddit
My pre-covid contract says "Working location: remote" (or words to that effect).
That aside, I'm a consultant so never actually working with my literal employer, everything is remote IT stuff for banks etc.
Unfortunately not that applicable to most!
Aetane@reddit
stoneharry@reddit
Tenure. Nobody wants to give a new hire remote.
Lost-Actuary-2395@reddit
£22K in 2008 is equivalent of £360,779.74 in 2025
Dansnake456@reddit
69% of statistics are made up on the spot
Lost-Actuary-2395@reddit
420% of reddit users don't fact check the number anyways
ihatethis2022@reddit
Thanks for reminding me to have my vape.
miserablegit@reddit
In this case he was substantially correct, "just" getting the decimal separator in the wrong position... Typo level: "Eats, shoots, and leaves"
tradegreek@reddit
205% of Reddit ones are
miserablegit@reddit
You got the decimal separator wrong, it's 36,077
Lost-Actuary-2395@reddit
I did, amended now
Gloomy-Flamingo-9791@reddit
Not sure that's really accurate.
VolcanicBear@reddit
That pesky inflation!
AndorElitist@reddit
And that’s the lower bound
Top-Car-808@reddit
over supply.
This is the only true answer. The labour market doesn't pay more than 35k for that role, because there are armies of people willing to take it.
Do you pay more than you need to when you go shopping? No. And neither do the firms that hire labour.
ColtAzayaka@reddit
When there are more grads than roles available, the demand for those roles is higher than the supply and as such companies will essentially auction the position to the lowest bidder. If someone will work for 35k, another slightly more desperate person will take it for 30. It's shitty but that's just how it is.
Hate to admit it, but if I have to pick between being unemployed or being underpaid... at least I'd be gaining experience for my CV
a-highlander@reddit
‘Fair’ isn’t an object that exists in the universe. Life isn’t fair, never has been.
The price of everything is determined by demand and supply. Each job will have a market rate determined by demand and supply.
If you think you are paid less than your market rate then move on and find a job at that rate.
I would assume that the office admin guy is nearer the ceiling of his earning potential than the engineering/technical people.
Bambam_Figaro@reddit
The person you are comparing to "just" responds to emails few times a day.
Lol, so for all you know these emails could be unlocking million dollar projects on a daily basis.
How many emails he answers Vs what other tasks he fulfils is irrelevant.
What those emails say is what matters.
Due_Professor_8736@reddit
I was also triggered by the "all he does"..
All he does is likely more multi-tasking, prioritising, negotiating, leveraging interpersonal skills, etc. than most "professional" engineers i've met seem capable of...
Charming_Ad_6021@reddit
Exactly, I have an office based WFH technical role. My job is to deal with referrals and provide guidance to our frontline teams on anything slightly out of the usual.
I spend my day replying to emails and chatting on teams, never visit sites. Every year my performance is assessed based on the savings I make the business, which are all documented and evidenced. It was over £1 mill last year.
But OP feels they're worth more than me because they knock up a few drawings and take day trip out of the office? Joking with that last comment, but all I do is email people.
neukStari@reddit
I always assumed companies put incompetents behind desks to answer emails. They effectively saved a million pounds by not allowing you to fuck everything up.
mothsugar@reddit
Some companies are now training individual AI models on years of employees' email data in order to create 'digital twins'. Most sinister thing I heard at an AI conference recently (the guy delivering it seemed happy with the situation though)
RepsUpMoneyDown@reddit
Found an office emailer
Bambam_Figaro@reddit
Lol exactly 😂
suiluhthrown78@reddit
Graduates of all kinds of disciplines are a dime a dozen, especially in engineering, architecture, the sciences, law, its completely saturated out there, its an employer's market.
suiluhthrown78@reddit
The second point is how much do you think they should be getting paid? Grinding through the night for an undergraduate degree is a choice, unless you're studying to be a doctor there aren't any degrees out there where daytime study isn't enough.
I've done training courses at some jobs that are more difficult than a university education, you could narrow degrees down to 1-2 years or so, but there's a nice social aspect to university education being 3-4 years where you're in an environment unlike any other, which is kind of the other point, its a nice experience and designed as such, its not difficult etc.
RelativelyOldSoul@reddit
As someone who studied Engineering, B. Eng Mechatronics. It is absolutely a technical grind. 4 years minimum, 5 years often with very little socialisation. Often studying while everyone else is partying.
gogybo@reddit
Speak for yourself - I did an MEng in Aero and there was plenty of time for socialising and partying. Less so in the final few years of course but you're kind of past it by then anyway.
Distinct-Goal-7382@reddit
How's it going thinking of doing it
suiluhthrown78@reddit
I'd be interested in seeing the syllabus, the only people I know who were too busy to socailise were those doing side projects so it'd be easier to get a job later on or trying to startup their way out
There's a huge difference in the difficulty of the course between universities, there's a small number of unis where first year students would be doing what third or even Master's tier students would be doing at the bulk majority of other universities, but there's still plenty of time to socialise for them as well
RelativelyOldSoul@reddit
Wow okay. It sounds like it might be a bit easier in the UK to be fair judging by the comments, where i’m from it is widely considered an absolutely hellish degree with drop out rates around 90% from beginning first year to beginning third year. 5 hours lectures daily, with a 2hr tutorial and 1hr test each day for 2 years. Barring term exams and semester exams.
Charming-Clock-3651@reddit
Where did you study? Might just be a skill issue. A lot of people dropped out of my degree program, but they were also the ones who were good at memorising things instead actually being clever so they had to work very hard and still failed most of the exams because those actually tested how you thought about stuff, rather than what you could remember
wall2wall2wall@reddit
Going to assume he studied in Ireland
drivingagermanwhip@reddit
The trick is to go to Imperial so the socialising is even worse than the work
ninjabennett@reddit
I did a MEng degree and was out every night. Had so much more time than I do in full time work.
HypedSub-@reddit
Varies. I lived with a few engineers in my time at uni, all 3 did masters, all 3 were social and were hardly hermits, all 3 got at least a 2:1 and 1 got a first. How much time studying for a degree takes depends a lot on natural ability and aptitude.
I'm especially surprised to hear you say a bachelors is a 4 or 5 year programme, since all the engineers I know do integrated masters giving them an M. Eng in 4 years
Neither-Stage-238@reddit
Not as current citizens, they're a dime in a dozen in the world, thats why allowing multinationals to hire from a global market freely, for every profession and entry levels roles is such a problem.
suiluhthrown78@reddit
Sure, but also in the UK market alone we're graduating 1.5 million under/post grads each year most of whom are UK born, after a few years it adds up to far too many 'qualified' people for the jobs
something broader needs to be done but not sure what
Imaginary-Past-8103@reddit
It could be down to experience in a role
chaoticbastian@reddit
As an American living here it's ridiculous how low the salaries are here for similar price of living. Plus the high taxes. I will say however that you guys get a hell lot more time off and more affordable healthcare than we do
Glittering_Film_6833@reddit
I'd advise people not to look at tech roles in government, unless they want a cry.
Such_Trick_121@reddit
Because you can’t pay an EO as a caseworker in Newcastle £32,000 and then in London £42,000. This is purely just an example of low to high**
Medical_Pace_1440@reddit
admin has niche systems per company, and there is grief when things go wrong but ultimately it's paperwork and/or customer service, it doesnt take that long for someone to become effective so starting salary is generally as good as it's gonna get
engineering grads come out having never seen equipment they will work with/on (unless they did a decent placement) and it takes maybe a year or more for them to be familiar with how things work in the real world and be competent to take responsibility for their own work, so their wage will rise with their experience.
it's like the old story of the old guy charging a fortune for hitting something in the right place with a hammer, you aren't paying for his time but his experience. basically it could take a new grad 3 phone calls and a day of head scratching to work out a problem on site, where a 3 year experienced guy/gal might have handled something similar the year before, so finds and proves the problem in half an hour.
Locellus@reddit
35 for fresh grad is ok for those roles. Expect 5k per year annual pay rise and come update us in 10 years, they’ll be on over 100 for engineering and architectural roles. I recommend they change companies if they do not see this level of annual pay rise, that’ll double it.
Source, done it, went to uni with others in related fields who have also done (and been much more successful than my lazy self)
HumbleInspector9554@reddit
British engineers are some of the most criminally underpaid in Europe. Mostly because they share the title with a raft of technicians many of which are actually just paid straight up more than those peeps with degrees.
In most technical fields you're also competing with outsourcing the role to India or with an Indian grad using the Master's route for a UK right to work, which outside of a few fields just isn't going to work.
I'm amazed more Brits don't emigrate to Australia, the UK technical space is fucked.
Ankarres@reddit
A couple of other factors include
1) Graduates forget that despite getting a really good degree, there's tons of other people with the exact same degree to compete with. With limited jobs in certain industries and the likelihood there's always someone just ask skilled as you that will accept a lower salary, this will keep salaries lower.
2) As I realised when I came out of uni, my friends who had in effect had 3-4 years head start in a company, by not going uni worked their way up were already on higher than a average grad salary. Many were also able to train and upskill within their job whilst on a full-time wage.
3) By the time you're out of uni, having suffered financially for years, your expectations are lowered in a desperate push to get a FT job in your field. Employers know you'd accept that just to get on the ladder.
Don't worry though, short term it seems shit but these sort of roles you describe aren't going to pay off in short term unless you can rely on nepotism. The guy working as an office admin can only earn so much in that field, he's probably peaked his salary potential already. Technical roles like you describe will pay off in 10 years or so and shoot past that.
wandering_salad@reddit
I applied for a job at a London uni after graduating from my STEM PhD. The job was in education development. It paid £30k iirc, this was in 2017.
BigSignature8045@reddit
Part of the issue is that the person who comes to repair your washing machine, or the photocopier at work, calls him/herself an engineer. So that title has been devalued greatly.
An Engineer should have an engineering degree (or equivalent). In Germany this absolutely would be the case and, so, well qualified technical people are well respected there.
The person who mends your washing machine is a technician (with no disrespect - it is a necessary and respectable job).
Technical roles are simply not respected in the UK. To give an example from my own field (IT) - everyone wants good support but nobody wants to pay for it. People complain that IT support is crap, but when you're paying someone barely above minimum wage what, really, do you expect ?
I don't know what the answer is - but low wages for very well qualified and well experienced people is the norm in the UK and I don't see it changing any time soon.
neukStari@reddit
The person that comes to fix your washing machine is going to charge you a 150 for two hours of work.
BigSignature8045@reddit
Supply and demand. It doesn't mean that what I have written is untrue.
Why would anyone study for (typically) a 4 year degree, and the debt it entails, in Engineering when they can earn such good money and have no student debt for years and year.
The Lib Dems used to have a policy which seems to have fallen by the wayside to properly fund higher education, not have student loans but return to the old system of grants and tuition fees being paid, but graduates would pay an extra penny of income tax once their income reached a certain threshold to pay for it.
One of my gripes is that Education is generally very poorly thought of in the UK, especially England. Teachers are slated, ridiculed, everyone says what a cushy life they have - and yet we have, literally, thousands of unfilled teaching roles in schools because nobody wants to teach; it's too hard and too soul destroying and, frankly, graduates can earn better money elsewhere.
Again, I do not think any of this is easily dealt with but this dumbing down of society generally and the glorification of so called "celebrities" who are, frankly, stupid beyond belief (cf: The Kardashians as one example) doesn't help.
neukStari@reddit
Its really not the norm. As far as I know if you're making less than 50k in IT your doing something seriously wrong.
I'm in a tech adjacent creative field, and day rates go around 350-500.
BigSignature8045@reddit
Sorry, but 1st level support roles pay terribly. They really do. And this is often where people are expected to start out.
At higher levels, particularly with a good skill set, you can make good money yes, but not compared to other countries.
neukStari@reddit
What other countries though, rates are even lower in Europe. The only place that probably pays higher than the UK is the states, where living costs almost even out the odds.
Efficient_Science_47@reddit
Architecture pays very poorly, in the UK. I was working in a related field, earning £35k after 10 years in the industryz starting at £21k in 2008.
Left the country, now I make 7 times what I did in the UK, grosse. Haven't even looked at the net take home.
So many clients I witnessed in the UK tried to sneak out of paying fees, getting work done for free, going bust, etc, etc.
They don't teach you any of that at architecture school.
PrimeWolf101@reddit
Construction pays very poorly, particularly architecture. This is because of the race to the bottom culture we have as a result of the contract and bidding systems we use.
Architecture these days is viewed as a passion career, many people go into it because they love it and are therefore willing to work for relatively low wages. It's also a fairly middle class profession, where people can afford to earn low wages as they are partially subsidised by parents.
No one is working laying bricks for the love of the craft alone, and if it paid worse then the job wouldn't get done. But much like fashion, film and other creative industries architecture is full of people that need to build portfolios and experience and will work for free doing internships or stay in low paid jobs to be near the sort of projects they are interested in.
Source: I used to be an architect, then I left because the pay was so awful. I've been in my new career for 3 years and I already earn more than everyone apart from the directors at my old architecture practice.
wall2wall2wall@reddit
What's your new role
INTuitP1@reddit
Architecture is not a well paid job. £35k is fairly decent.
rs990@reddit
My wife and her sister are qualified architects, and it's interesting to note whenever they catch up with uni classmates that none of them are actually working as architects these days.
Most of them are in project management type roles and earning way more than they would in architecture.
tobyhoy@reddit
Same with the people I went to uni with. We all took our skills out of architecture into other more specialised jobs.
mothsugar@reddit
Same, colleague's partner was laid off from an architecture firm and is now applying for PM roles
INTuitP1@reddit
That’s my experience also (working with a lot of PMs). It’s also very rare to have any creative freedom, particularly if you work in commercial. So no money and no job satisfaction.
JHRFDIY@reddit
They accept less now on the promise of much more down the line. Where as your office mate probably won’t get much past 37k in his career unless he moves jobs and up skills.
tobyhoy@reddit
Architecture only pays well if they pay for YOU. Or if you're a director at a large practice. Too many architecture schools pumping out architecture students who can get told what to draw on CAD.
KonkeyDongPrime@reddit
Salary scale in built environment can go up quite significantly after the grad phase, but you need to be getting involved in work winning.
LurkingUnderThatRock@reddit
This isn’t true for all companies or roles, but salary rises quite quickly after you leave JR roles in technical roles.
Case in point, my starting salary was 35k + 10% bonus. Yr 2 I was promoted and saw a 30% pay bump. 5 years later my salary is 80k + stock (quite a lot of stock).
Thoughts:
If you’re not at least getting inflationary rises you’re getting a pay cut. Consider leaving if this happens.
Stock is good, but risky. I’ve done well from it but I have friends who have done less well in other firms.
Grow, grow your network, skills, look for opportunities for promotion or movement if opportunities arise.
The uk pays finance better, make of that what you will. Do you value money or your work more? I don’t want to be a finance bro, id likely double my take home if I change my mind about that.
AI is the elephant in the room, I have a feeling that basic admin tasks are going to be rapidly cut over the coming years. To what extent I don’t know, but I would be concerned if I was in a role at risk in the short term.
Bazsticks@reddit
35k as a fresh grad the ceiling is a lot higher on earning then an admin .
Kvmjohan@reddit
Jeremy Clarkson summed this up perfectly with his story about an English engineer versus a German engineer.
1Redditr2RuleThemAll@reddit
Two words. Elite Overproduction.
Avacado7145@reddit
Everybody will be on minimum wage soon. That’s the direction we’re going in.
Weird-Statistician@reddit
Some jobs are the start of a career. Some jobs are jobs.
Look at doctors, lawyers, architects etc. Start off low but if you stick it out and are god, there is a career path through to retirement. Go get a job in sales and you are as good as your last deal.
Not_A_Toaster_0000@reddit
Are they hiring?
Strutching_Claws@reddit
As an "Admin" in 6 years time he will still be earning that figure or around it, as an engineer you will be earning 3x4 times as much.
Often these qualifications dictate your max salary potential not always your minimum.
MarionberryNational2@reddit
Supply v Demand
JunketSea2063@reddit
Starting salaries are low, but depending on the industry / niche you are in you can more triple your salary in 5 years. But yeah salaries are still lower than the US and western Europe
mikeysof@reddit
Because how else are the ceos going to get their 1000% pay rise, silly.
Interesting-Win-3220@reddit
In a nutshell, Britain pays for managers not technicians.
33backagain@reddit
Because graduates fresh out of uni dont have work experience. I started on 13k in 2000 after graduating and am on a very good salary today.
MrRibbotron@reddit
Universities are churning out fresh grads even in demanding or technical fields like engineering and architecture. This means that employers don't have to offer more than the bare minimum for entry-level roles because there will still be someone willing to apply for them.
JamOverCream@reddit
Quite simply, what you may think as “highly technical”does not necessarily equate to adding value in the same way that what you perceive as “less technical” roles might.
bl4nked@reddit
I assume your "non technical" friend has 4 years more work experience than you given the lack of degree? If so, it's not a fair comparison
SpaceToad@reddit
Fresh grad roles have always been much lower compared to people mid career though, a lot of these are just graduate scheme or apprenticeship level jobs just renamed.
Wranglatang@reddit
Quite often I think a lot of people overestimate how useful inexperienced people are even with the correct qualifications. A fresh grad architect probably isn’t actually providing too much advice or leading projects without a lot of oversight. Overseeing junior staff can take up almost as much time (if not more) than just doing the work yourself. Salaries (generally) are better when you work a bit further up the ladder, but most roles will still see batter salaries in some countries abroad.
I could earn an extra 30%ish if I moved to the US. But I don’t want to live in the US.
MFA_Nay@reddit
The UK economy has had flatlining productivity since the 2008 Great Finance Crisis.
Historically increases in productivity leads to higher wages and higher standards in material living.
How do you get high productivity in the modern world. Usually investment in people (training), research and development, and technology. Guess what the UK has been chronically low in? Compared to other OECD countries we're usually below average.
avangelist90201@reddit
Prepare for the flame war. Your friend is getting £35k a year for their first job? Good cor them.
My first job in IT was 12k a year and it took me nearly two decades to get experience to the point of getting roles for 45k a year.
Suck it up buttercup
Crimson__Fox@reddit
20 years ago it was also about 35k, unadjusted for inflation
Weird-Promise-5837@reddit
The key point you've misunderstood here is "graduate" salary, this is their starting position. They are, hopefully, going to build to form a very attractive powerful skill set that can demand a large salary, arguably, anywhere in the world.
When we all went to uni and spent years slaving away and then working for less than £35k, the friends who stayed at home and went straight into work were laughing. They're not laughing now.
What tangible, desirable skills does the person in the admin role have? If they lost their job how easily or in demand would they be? Is it even a career position, are there other perks like pension etc.
Engineers are grossly underpaid in the UK, I can't comment as concisely on architects, but don't think for one moment they're being short changed. This is simply the step through the door, they've not even made it to the lift yet.
titlrequired@reddit
I expect the salary progression for an architect is quite drastic compared to an office admin.
So yeah they make more than you today, but you will likely outpace them.
hulmesweethulme@reddit
It isn’t, it’s painfully slow, and too competitive. You’re lucky if you get promoted more than once after becoming qualified.
titlrequired@reddit
I guess some of that will be determined by where you work, and how deserving a promotion you are.
fire-wannabe@reddit
There is no "fair". There is only what you can negotiate.
DrHydeous@reddit
Fresh graduates aren't paid much because they're not very good at their job yet. Back when I were a lad and studying Manufacturing Engineering, it was expected that after I graduated I would still have to do some years of on-the-job training, with someone else supervising, checking, and signing off all my work, with all that that implies in terms of use of a much more experienced person's expensive time. It's like how doctors get their degree and then do loads of on-the-job training, just not so well known by outsiders.
It's still the same now, 30 years later.
IllustriousPhoto3865@reddit
How much money do you make the company?, at this stage in your career the answer is, not enough. Hence the salary you are paid. Don’t run before you can walk.
IOnlyUpvoteBadPuns@reddit
Because they're Grads! There's very little differentiating them, and for the first year or so, it costs almost as much in supervision and training than they actually produce. It's not until 3-5yrs experience that they become valuable and can start demanding higher salaries.
svenz@reddit
Only thing valued in UK companies is a posh accent. So I joined a US company and get paid appropriately for my skillset.
Kapha_Dosha@reddit
I have been basically anti- or neutral- US for most of my adult life.
Last week I stumbled on an ad for the job that I do. I blinked. If I were not sure that the recruiter's site was a reputable source, I would have been sure it was not real.
Whole outlook changed in an instant.
imhiya_returns@reddit
I’m in Cambridge senior staff engineer on 80k with shares each year ~$20k and bonus. London would be higher as well. Your looking at entry level
imhiya_returns@reddit
Electronics engineer - semiconductors , 12 years experience
ninjabennett@reddit
I’m curious to know too…
AnxEng@reddit
What sort of engineering?
mumwifealcoholic@reddit
Fair?
Your degree doesn’t let you skip the shit job stage. Whoever told you that, lied.
DannyBrownsDoritos@reddit
It was me. I told all the companies to do it to fuck with engineers
HughWattmate9001@reddit
A business will give the minimum they can, plenty of people willing to do the job for such low amounts. If there were not it would be higher.
Majestic_Mood_4599@reddit
I’m a civil engineering grad on 27k in a technical role and I think the peak salary is about 35k as a senior…
irish_horse_thief@reddit
Pay increases as your skill sets and experiences increase. Trade apprenticeships lead to good careers.
test_test_1_2_3@reddit
Architecture is the worst paid job in the construction industry of you want to go by qualification requirements and progression through career.
That’s because architecture is extremely oversubscribed for the number of roles in industry that are available and the role of architect has changed substantially as we move away from having them manage and lead projects.
Don’t do architecture unless you’re absolutely obsessed with it, it just isn’t worth it in the modern day. If you do do it you need to accept you’ll likely never get paid much and there’s a decent chance you’ll need to find another job at the first hint of economic downturn.
Engineering is better than architecture but isn’t great. But plenty of engineers do earn well in the UK, I have friends who contract for wind farm and nuclear work (electrical engineers in this case) and both of them make £150k+ a year.
If you just join a company and stay there then your pay will be stagnant.
two4skins@reddit
Architects and Engineers (structural, civil, and M&E) are underpaid for the responsibilities, experience, and knowledge they have. The wage does grow with time (I’m a senior structural engineer with 10+ years working in central London on about just under £65k - not chartered), however as a whole it is not good. Unfortunately since the 2008 recession, CDP came into play and fees were driven lower, clients then expected them to stay low post recession. This created a somewhat race to the bottom unless a client really values you. Now all the big firms are in a large amount of debt and keep pushing it down the road as long as they win another big job, until the next recession (when they will go under). Also I think the threat of Ai is slightly over blown currently, but Outsourcing is a real thing which massively undercuts firms that don’t do it. Therefore, unfortunately, you will never be on the big bucks unless you start a successful niche firm, or work your way up to director (and seeing what they have to do does not look fun even if they’re on a somewhat fair whack). Basically you’ve got to try find your niche, and try find something in it you really love.
Kind_Dream_610@reddit
Currently having to look for IT roles and the salaries seem to be coming down for skilled roles because "well AI can or will be able to do this role soon". I hope a couple of the guys who were the AI "fathers" as it were, are right and the bottom drops out of it soon. AI is useful for some things, but for taking jobs, screw that.
Elmundopalladio@reddit
Architectural salaries have always been historically low. It’s made worse by companies expecting excessive working weeks with many late nights ‘for the good of the project’ it’s got a bit better in my career, but the salary compared to the level of education doesn’t align with similar professions. Just don’t get a jaded architect on the subject in a pub! In reality, places outside London offer a much better quality of life whilst remaining in the profession - especially once you reach a certain point in your life where London becomes more of a burden.
LongFundamental@reddit
London can and always has been highly contradictory when it comes to salaries and what is considered "fair". I know plenty of people in super technical jobs stuck around 40/50k for years, where others who seem to do not much are on double...
If you're in the more traditional "high professions" (finance/law/consulting) pay can quickly increase, even in London.
I worked in consulting space and my salary progressed rather rapidly during my time in London. For context, in 2012 I was on 38k my first year on a consulting grad scheme. I left London 7 years later (2019) - by which point I was on 270k.
Chemical-Drive-6203@reddit
Life isn’t fair.
n0d3N1AL@reddit
London isn't really different to remote or even hybrid in other parts of the country for tech roles, it's just that a lot of big money FinTechs are in London and graduate jobs pay poorly. My first job out of uni after doing an MSc in Software Engineering was around £26k in 2016, £50k in 2021 after doing a PhD and currently six figures working remote, the fastest way to get a raise is to change jobs. I don't think education and qualifications make a difference tbh, it's mostly about your experience, ability to learn and portfolio. Although I despise how London-centric this country is, those of us who work remote have it so good. You will often find the worst companies with most demanding jobs pay the worst. I remember applying to Ocado and they were offering £40k full-time in London office even during pandemic they were mandating RTO as soon as possible, and they had 6 interview stages. I passed them all and turned them down even as a desperate postgraduate. I'd advise whoever is being offered low salaries for demanding work to shop around, if not immediately then after at most one year.
Teji0104@reddit
Honestly?
Because Bachelor degrees are not rare or unique, and you're not going to hire someone who, at best, has a year in industry.
As someone who works in a technical field, went to a shitty local college, then onto a supposedly well-regarded university, and is now a key decision maker in the hiring process, I can say that the quality of BSc and BEng courses are massively subpar (Not just in the UK, but from international universities as well).
ResplendentBear@reddit
Anyone earning over 30k as a new grad has no reason to complain.
Also, you don't do a degree for the salary you get at 22. You do it for the salary you get at 30+.
Specific_Buy8436@reddit
I’m in a technical role. Started on £21k as a fresh grad. 5 years later, I’m on £130k
My wife is in an admin role, started on £35k. 5 years later, she’s on £42k.
Racing_Fox@reddit
I work as a truck driver, full time it’s 42k, I plan to move into an engineering role soon (truck driving was my uni job) and the pay for that is 35k
Honestly 35k sounds about right as a fresh grad but I’d expect it to ramp up pretty steeply and exceed the office admin in the long term
Uvers_@reddit
Country is just broken, unless you're in banking and finance every field in the UK is severely underpaid relative to living costs and technical skills. I'm only earning decent as teacher now because I'm at the end of the pay scale, but during my hardest years working I was barely making around 30K working 24/7 every day of the week for literally nothing.
manamara1@reddit
Look it’s obvious. Born to a wealthy family. That’s where you messed up. Work in investment bank. Get the job via your wealthy family connections.
becooldocrime@reddit
Graduate roles are generally low paid due to lack of experience, which is pretty reasonable for a year or two whilst people develop the practical skills to work in industry. As others have mentioned, architecture is a generally low paid area of work.
Engineering is a very broad term - I’m in a fairly narrow specialty and I can pretty much name my price; I have about 8 years experience in industry.
Parrotfish1_@reddit
The title is too generic. Are you talking about the construction industry?
If so, it's the market. Too many fresh grads are clustered in London. Construction industry is very unprofitable on the consultancy side –compared to other industries.
Snorkel64@reddit
four years bought them access to roles hes not qualified to even apply for
his skills throws him in the ocean with just about half the population
now wether theres enough of those roles (or you're degree qualified friends are likely to land one of them at the end of their four years) is a different story.
Engineer__This@reddit
Engineering salaries start low but increase very rapidly in just a few years. Don’t take the advertised salary as the amount that engineers are actually earning on average.
Ok-Information4938@reddit
Fresh grads....
That's entry level. They're getting trained?
Crazy_Extension_4081@reddit
None of its fair. How is it fair that some people earn six fifures for low stress jobs that do not benefit society or the anet. And some people are frontline emergency services, scientists or other vital roles and earn sweet FA. First rule of life lol
Whole-Lie-254@reddit
Just market forces.
We did a great job in this country for so long in pushing higher education, but never really thought about the next step, Blair era politics sort of made the assumption that if you could solve education, then the economic benefits would be naturally emergent. Which is a nice thought, but I think largely, though maybe not absolutely, overoptimistic.
It stems from a long period through 70s -> 2000s through which white collar work was growing and in-demand, and it was pretty much a given that white collar jobs beat out any blue collar work for pay.
That means over the years we've not done such a great job at supporting graduates by...
So the reality is now that for many fields, we're just creating graduates at a rate that there simply isn't demand for, and whats more, a disproportionate number of them head for London, because its the only place that you even might have a chance at making some serious money, which compounds the issue.
And so all that means that we've pretty much devalued white collar work to the extent that in most of the country it makes pretty much no difference.
https://luminate.prospects.ac.uk/graduate-salaries-in-the-uk
Only in London do graduates take a slight lead, and these numbers include a skew from a small number of exceptionally high paying fields that you don't get elsewhere.
Don't get me wrong - I don't think we should discourage education, we just need to work on the demand side of the curve, and perhaps some 'alignment'.
AdRealistic4984@reddit
I’m not an engineer but work somewhere in the field and my grad job pay was £25k. A little over a year later I jumped to £45k then stayed thereabouts for a few years. You do start low but can move up quickly-ish
Wonderful_Nerve_8308@reddit
>fresh grad
Talk about cherrypicking examples...on 1 hand you have fresh graduate, on the other you said you have another guy who does not have any degree, so in other words someone who could be up to 3-4 years working in their career already. There is no way you can compare against someone up to 4 years into their career when you just started.
Plus as fresh grad you hold massive career progression potential. I'm not surprised if your salary outpaced the office admin in 2 years.
OkVacation973@reddit
I agree, getting a degree is basically just a ticket to get onto the bottom rung of certain careers, which eventually will pay more than a less qualified position (depending on the field).
Instead people have this attitude, expect to treated better for having gone to university, expect to immediately earn more than experienced non-graduates. Oh, and complain endlessly about student debt (which is far offset by their potential extra earnings and will eventually be wiped clear).
Sorry, this attitude isn't uncommon but it does rile me up...
IamlostlikeZoroIs@reddit
First year working and making 35k sounds good, only up from there right?
The other guy in the office has been there for how long? I would imagine that’s as far as his salary would go.
Feeling-Medium-7856@reddit
British Salaries have just stagnated like all hell for 15 years or so. Some of the graduate salaries I see are basically what was being paid for graduates when I finished my undergraduate (hence the 15 years observation, as I was paying attention back then)... It's... not good. The pound is weaker than it was back then, but obviously there's an awful lot more at play as to why. It is bleak.
Glittering-Sink9930@reddit
Because those jobs aren't as technical or demanding as you think.
CodeToManagement@reddit
Architecture is a very technical job with quite a lot of different responsibilities.
Commercial-Silver472@reddit
Not as a grad
AnOdeToSeals@reddit
As a grad though surely they are getting paid to be trained at that point?
CodeToManagement@reddit
I mean a fully qualified architect is 7 years into training already with a bachelors, masters and another higher level qualification and will have done at least 2 years work experience as part of that maybe 3.
So yea they are still training a bit but it’s still a very detail oriented and technical job. And it doesn’t pay as well as it should at all.
AnOdeToSeals@reddit
Oh, I read it as an architect grad as someone who isn't yet a qualified architect. And fresh grad implies that they don't have any work experience, so are coming straight from uni.
CodeToManagement@reddit
Even if they are a fresh grad their work will still be very technical just with more oversight. And tbh if they are making 35k as a fresh grad it’s not a bad salary at all.
Like statistically most architects who start their own company won’t be making 40k
bars_and_plates@reddit
People take the jobs and do it. There's not much more to it. It doesn't have to be "fair", you are accepting the conditions by taking the job.
If I had graduated in 2025 instead of 2015 I would almost certainly have just moved somewhere else. The top end (e.g. after 10 years of promotions) salaries don't look like they are enough to live a decent life, buy a house, raise a family etc.
Commercial-Silver472@reddit
Four years of technical undergrad studies - aka you turned up to some lectures and did some coursework. Despite this mild effort grads aren't useful colleagues for at least a year or two in my experience.
Capr1ce@reddit
I can speak for software engineering. Grads will be getting lower amounts at first, but after 2 years they can get a much much higher salary. We give huge pay rises to grads after one and two years, as they are able to work more independently. And after a few years, if they stay as a developer they can eventually get up to about £80-120k (even more in certain sectors). And then even more if they want to go into leadership. So the job might be harder than the admin job, but it'll pay off pretty quickly. It pays well, downside is it can be stressful and redundancies are common.
Private_Ballbag@reddit
Yeah I work in tech and loads of roles start at 30-35 but can quickly grow in 5-10 years to £100 plus if not more depending how good you are
BobySandsCheseburger@reddit
I'm a recent graduate with an MSc in a technical science job making 25k lol could be worse
MiddleEarthFoak@reddit
Fresh grad = no real work experience and hasn’t proven themselves.
Didn’t get a degree = worked their arse off and can do the job blindfolded.
Seanacles@reddit
You wasted 4 years sorry bro my 5 year old nephew can perform the same tasks for a fraction of the cost
dowhileuntil787@reddit
The answer is always supply and demand.
The market doesn't care how difficult the job is directly, except to the extent that it affects how easy it is to hire someone who can do the job.
I don't know anything about the engineering and architecture job markets in London, but if I had to guess, it would just be that they're reasonably popular degrees, but there isn't much demand for the work here.
Go somewhere with a booming fossil fuel industry and you'll usually find engineering pays quite well, but being a creative marketing manager doesn't.
Creative_Ninja_7065@reddit
Well, that's the graduate life for you. University teaches you a few prerequisites to do your job, but it doesn't teach you how to do the whole job. An experienced hire is going to be a lot easier to deal with.
Then there's the fact that UK wages have been kept artificially low and housing artificially high, but oh well...
GuybrushFunkwood@reddit
If you put up a 40k job for 30k and get 600 people applying for it, half of which were recently made redundant from a more senior role and are desperate for work, what would you do as a business owner?
thesockpuppetaccount@reddit
List it at minimum wage and get a quarter of your half and pick from that lot…
Teawillfixit@reddit
UK salaries are not great compared to other HIC and capitol cities.
But also maybe because they are grad roles you're talking about? Tends to take a while to get the experience and promotions.
Dodomando@reddit
Engineering roles in particular are saturated in the world (not the UK we have so few) from India in particular. There are so many engineers in India that do the work for so much cheaper that most companies end up shipping most work there
Bose82@reddit
“Visit sites occasionally” doesn’t sound terribly demanding.
The wages are low because that’s what’s offered and you take it. Someone will always do the job for less money which will drive down wages. Another reason unions exist
Neither-Stage-238@reddit
yeah, allowing multinationals in the UK to hire from anywhere on earth has driven down wages.
DurgeDidNothingWrong@reddit
Yeah, only got to look at the corporate profits as a percent of GDP to see where all the money is going
XihuanNi-6784@reddit
Yep. And unionisation rates are rock bottom among white collar types, especially the 'skilled' ones because they used to think they had enough bargaining power. They no longer do, but it's taking a while for them to catch up and realise they need to work together instead of just trying to move jobs all the time. Our apathy is catching up with us.
Dense_Yogurtcloset43@reddit
That’s why the likes of the UAE and the US are so attractive.
Best-Hovercraft-5494@reddit
Fresh graduate is your answer. In the grand scheme of things you know comparatively little and are there to learn.
Neither-Stage-238@reddit
young workers wages are suppressed now all work in the UK is on the global labour market.
planckkk@reddit
Wage progression for the more technical roles is much higher generally
Darkheart001@reddit
A lot of these jobs are being outsourced leaving too many people chasing too few roles. Also graduates don’t really know how to do the job, they just think they do. In some ways training non-graduates is easier because they listen more, appreciate the opportunities and don’t have any preconceived ideas of how the job should be done.
Not that young people don’t contribute or aren’t needed, every organisation needs some young blood, however technical roles are not as well paid as they once were and it takes a while to build enough experience and have some good results to show. Once you do you can expect to see a significant rise, however the top is around £70K - £90K now and those roles are very hotly contested.
trmetroidmaniac@reddit
wage compression
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