My Flight School Won’t Let CFI’s Cancel Our Own Flights

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AudoBell@reddit

putting pressure on CFIs to fly when they shouldn't

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

I didn’t read that in the post.

But that just depends on the quality of the pilot.

If I make my mind up that the flight is a no go, there is about a 0% chance that’s going to change, but I will get them on a audio recording with me saying “I feel I’m being pressured to fly” if they want to push the issue, still ain’t going to launch, in a few decades that happened once and it wasn’t as a CFI.

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democracyisgoodtbh@reddit

are you the flight school owner? you're all over this thread making up wild stories to defend this practice.

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

Nope, just been around a little and know how things run.

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Severe_Elderberry769@reddit

Eh… if it starts, it flies.

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DudeSchlong@reddit

Are you in SWFL

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a_not_clever_name@reddit

If this is a flight school in the Fort Myers then I am an instructor there. I would not recommend working there. Comes off very put together and they have some nice equipment but they do not value the instructors time and milk their students hard.

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Liqu0rBaIISandwich@reddit

Are you W2 or 1099?

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PilotsNPause@reddit

Are you 1099ed OP? Cuz sounds illegal if so.

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Fancy-Media-4155@reddit

Violation of HIPPA. Sounds like you need a union.

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keenly_disinterested@reddit

All CFIs should get together and agree to announce ALL your IMSAFE issues on the group chat. Got intimate partner issues you think might be affecting your performance? Time to get advice from your cadre of professional CFIs. Not enough sleep? That should be a nice, long discussion. Student didn't do their homework? What should I do!!?

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CaptainAurelien@reddit

My flight school does the same. Flight schools want the student to make the call because a grounded plane = no money. If the student is the canceling party, the student is the liable party, and can be charged. It is a strategy to make sure CFIs are not causing harm to the bottom line. It is just another barrier that would make you think twice before canceling, a psychological pressure.

Welcome to pilot training.

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Mithster18@reddit

Most flight schools would have students reporting to their managing pilot/manager if they need to cancel everything, and doing it through a group chat could either keep everyone in the loop, give the managers (maybe the mom n pop) a chance to address everyone since multiple chats can get overwhelming, they maybe have had instructors cancel because of a 3kt X/W and want to encourage pilots to fly (not: "fly in dangerous conditions because please we need money")

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ExistentialTuber@reddit

I work at a mom and pop and when a CFI cancels they just need to communicate to their student or if they’re unable to, they let us at the desk do it. I get so many texts independently as manager…that group chat sounds like my worst nightmare…

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extraeme@reddit

This happened at a school I worked at too (CAE- Phoenix). You had to speak to a flight lead and get cancellation that way. If there was a big storm coming through you're expected to be there until the departure time for each of your flights, so you had to stick around all day even though you for sure weren't flying.

One time I tried to get a flight cancelled because of a TAF reporting strong winds and the lead gave me lip about it. Well at departure time the winds ended up being a 40+ kt crosswind. Glad I didn't go.

It shouldn't be allowed for your ADM to be in such scrutiny.

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countextreme@reddit

We had a department at work that started doing something similar with calling in. Hilariously, people in that dept were so stressed and called out so often that I think it had the opposite effect; the employees started seeing call-outs as normal and acceptable when they saw how often others were doing it.

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Legitimate-Watch-670@reddit

I think this is a strategy to micromanage the instructors and make sure we’re not excessively canceling.

It might be. That depends on how they respond when you send a message notifying of the cancelation. Do they ever argue back about something?

I'd just message the group "cancel {1300}, {reason}" with time and either "student imsafe", "instructor imsafe", "wx", or "MX". Then if they respond with anything other than "ok", just ignore them, or just reply "91.3(a)" or something lol.

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hugothemango@reddit

And why exactly? Sounds stupid.

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Due-Potential3656@reddit

That’s how it was at Thrust Flight in KADS. Absolute nightmare

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LongBeachTrijet@reddit

So, they don’t believe in medical privacy.

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Screw_2FA@reddit

Fuck that. Being able to make quality of life (sick, mx) decisions is about the only pro to instructing. I’m not flying an A/C I have issues with and I sure as shit wouldn’t put a student in that position either.

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

I don’t understand

I have never flown anywhere that I couldn’t call in sick or would attempt (and fail) to make me fly a broken plane, that’s not what his post said

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Screw_2FA@reddit

It sounds like the instructors are micromanaged to the point where any deviance on their part could potentially be used to build a case to fire them for absolute bullshit reasons like refusing to fly planes they deem unsafe and the school doesn’t or trying to push the instructors to fly when they don’t feel like they are IMSAFE. I’ve seen this kind of shit before. Flight schools know there is a glut of wet ticket CFIs lined up willing to do whatever for sweet, sweet hours. I didn’t invest 100k and 7 years into this to perish in a damn lawnmower with wings to help a school make an additional $20.

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

I didn’t read that in the post, also nearly all CFIs are at will employees, they don’t need a reason to fire you.

If you spent 100k and 7yrs to get a CPL, that asks more questions than it answers, especially if you’re flying what ever a “lawnmower with wings” is.

I flew some ugly ass airplanes back when I started but I knew enough about mechanics and aircraft to know the difference between ugly and un airworthy, I also LOVE aviation and flying and didn’t get into this just to become a polyester hero at a airline ASAP.

I’ve started small flight schools, communications can make or break a small business, especially one with big expenses and small margins, not knowing a plane became available and missing a potential flight, especially a first flight/discovery flight, is a big deal

Try to think of things from the point of the student & the school owner, you’ll have a smoother time, maybe also try to get under the cowl a little more and learn maintenance so you won’t be as scared and can judge ugly from airworthy ✈️

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Screw_2FA@reddit

I meant I’ve spent that amount of time and money invested to eventually get to airlines/corporate/anything not GA. In that time I’ve come across a lot of schools that push CFIs and students to fly questionable aircraft. A lawnmower with wings to me is pretty much any trainer single engine piston. To me this is no different than the crap ton of questionable operators out there that know they can use and abuse low time CPL holders who don’t want to instruct and use that to push them to fly unsafe planes in unsafe conditions. I understand the “accountability” angle, but it’s the underlying shady shit that most of these operators use and hold over their instructors heads. The school I’m at currently is tiny and a complete lack of communication from management is probably going to put us under sooner rather than later. Would you mind if I DM’d you some questions involving small school ops in the future?

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

After your CPL id think you would have been making money building hours and not spending it?

Why don’t you like GA? On the 121 side I see lots who ether love GA or hate it, often the more experienced guys love it, for what that’s worth

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Screw_2FA@reddit

I didn’t get into this field for the $100 hamburger, I got into it for a career. GA is part of the process to get there. Yes I get paid to instruct to build time now but I’m also spending it some as well because I’m not flying questionable aircraft, and I’m absolutely not teaching students to take that risk either. I have an issue with teaching students about the safety aspects of aviation and then following it up with “well all of this is clearly outside of tolerances, but it will probably be ok.” That’s the mentality I see far too often and I refuse to be a part of it. I want GA to be around forever for whoever wants its, but that’s not me. Once I move on I don’t plan to set foot in a GA plane again. GA for me and my goals is an all risk no reward situation.

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

I’m sorry to hear that, I’d imagine it must be much harder if you’re not into GA aviation, especially the first few jobs. Frankly the least enjoyable flying I’ve done was 121. Honestly don’t really feel like I ever “went to work” for the last few decades, I fly at work, come home and fly to get pancakes or even beat up the pattern in my own planes, go to fly ins, etc. It’s just a happy place

What’s beyond tolerances???

I don’t fly junk planes (outside of a ferry permit / mx test type deal), but I find many new CFIs have a hard time judging what’s just ugly vs not airworthy

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Screw_2FA@reddit

When I say “beyond tolerances” 300-400 RPM differences between mags is “probably a sensor issue,” despite noticeable engine roughness, oil pressure barely into the green at full power with almost a redlined temp is “faulty indicators,” any alternator issues at all are A-OK for day VFR, including student solos, at night “just take a handheld radio.” Had a different instructor fly a plane out and land and the entire left side of the cowling was covered in oil and a compression test came back all in the 60s and was asked “so who is going out to bring it back?” Without any additional mx being performed. Same instructor brought it back and plane was smoking on rollout. Full right seat brake failure is met with “only fly it with students you trust” and “should be fine for solos since they are in the left seat. No attempt is or was made to address any of these issues until everyone refused to fly them and this is only the stuff I’ve come across in the last six months. Had my own emergency landing due to failed carb heat last year and make at least two flights a month to go pick up stranded instructors or students.

The draw for 121 OPs to me is that I want boring. I want to go to work, fly my legs, and go home/to the hotel. I don’t want to worry about gaining experience to broaden my personal mins. I want to look at 121 regs and cross ref them with an OPSPECS to determine the call. I’d rather call a chief pilot about a situation than have to deal with the FAR/AIM and the bullshit “spirit of the regulations” stuff. I didn’t start down this path before doing my due diligence. No interest in flight benefits outside of commuting, and regional pay was $45/hr when I began so it’s not about the potential money either. Growing up commercial aircraft were my jam. I’d sit outside KCAE for hours just to see three Fokker 100s and 737-200s takeoff or land (really slow airport and my parents didn’t think to look at a flight schedule). I never cared about a random Cessna poking holes in the sky or whatever fighter jets were doing. Id love to stay GA adjacent by helping schools on the admin side but no desire to cram myself into another 172 if I don’t have to.

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

You’re very much going to deal with the FAR if you’re flying anything in the US, and there will be BS, DDG items, legal but not safe or prudent, mostly rest related, or derate to the max, it’s not always just black and white, yeah 85% of the time it is, but if you just take the paperwork, make sure it’s legal and launch, it’s going to eventually bite you. Get a plane delayed for something, weather changes, or now you’re all tired and you have a derate that gives you 0 SMG on a dark night with your other guy who’s right off OE. Legal but not prudent, stuff like that.

I will say I have never experienced anything like what you describe outside of a known maintenance flight which was done in VERY controlled conditions.

Sounds like you found a turd of a flight school

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Dont_crossthestreams@reddit

“Hi all, I have a purulent abscess on my penis that needs to be drained by a medical professional today. As such, I need to cancel my flight today. Thanks for your understanding”

I Guarantee that practice will end shortly after that note hits the chat

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carl-swagan@reddit

Yeahhh fuck that, definitely not the norm. But then again flight schools treating their CFI’s like garbage kinda is.

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SeaSDOptimist@reddit

When I had a CFI gig, I had admin access to the scheduling system (after it stopped being a book in the office). If someone wants to do it for me and all that I need to do is dump in a chat "cancel X, book Y", meh, not my problem.

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Critical-Moment-9295@reddit

This is bad… your cfi should be your guidance as to making a go/no go decision.

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Fr3nch_Toa5t_@reddit

Being an instructor is a shitty job. You work a crazy amount, get paid for like 1/4 of the time you are actually working, have a crazy amount of responsibility and make the same amount as if you never left your high school fast food job.

If you love airplanes tho there’s ways to at least enjoy the getting paid to stare out of the window part, and also watching your students learn to do stuff you taught them.

Stick with it m8 it gets better eventually 🤙🏽

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

I loved of first CFI gig, pretty cool to get paid for what you love

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Blemyz@reddit

Do you want to go to mainline someday? Sounds exactly like how commercial ops are run

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exadeuce@reddit

Stupid, cruel, and dangerous. Find other employment.

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Potential-Elephant73@reddit

Are they sometimes denying cancellations? Or do they basically just want to be notified? The former is a problem. The latter is just a bit annoying.

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FlyHighLilly@reddit (OP)

They usually don’t deny cancellations but they’ll sometimes question it. Like once it was gusting up to 25kts and some CFI’s flew and some cancelled and the ones that cancelled were questioned why they cancelled.

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Cherokee260@reddit

That would tick me off. It’s okay if they want to collect data but to question my authority as PIC and instructor is aggravating.

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

I don’t think that’s questioning the authority, but a CPL (let alone a CFI) who can’t handle 25kts is a concern.

Now if the student didn’t want to go up in it, well that’s another story

Personally I’ll leave that choice to the student, but I like to take them up on windy days, to practice take offs and landings, if they arnt at that stage just a short demo flight to show them it’s simply a skill and nothing to be afraid of

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Cherokee260@reddit

That’s a bad generalization. First of all 25 knots in a 172 is a lot different than other lighter aircraft, and I don’t believe OP has specified what aircraft. Also I’m not going to go up in a 25 knot crosswind, so it depends on the wind direction. ‘A short demo’ in 25 knot winds at certain airports cause major turbulence and can scare a student away early on in training- I’ve seen it happen.

It’s not a question of “handling” the weather, it’s an issue of safety and productivity.

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

I fly a J3 like aircraft in those winds, it’s no factor

The student will be scared if the instructor does not appear confident, and if you have a CFI who can’t fly in 25kt direct cross winds that’s something you want to identify and hopefully work on with the CFI

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Cherokee260@reddit

Holy ragebait. “The student will be scared if the instructor does not appear confident”? Really, that’s your argument? Go fly through a squall line with embedded tstorms for me so your passengers aren’t worried that you’re a bad pilot.

Max demo. in a 172 is 15 knots. I’m not purposefully taking a student up in 25 direct xwind for no reason. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean it’s smart. And you can be damn sure I wouldn’t tolerate my authority being questioned by a flight school.

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

If you’re feeling “rage” you might want to talk to someone dude.

And yes, 100% yes, CFIs pass on their fears to students all the time and it’s a pain in the ass to undo. I get this when I do spin training with guys and they are scared of a simple basic full stall. After we blow through hours they shouldn’t have to pay for, they see how it’s not the boogie man. I also see this with slips, and it’s often prefaced with “my CFI said…” 🤦‍♂️

Do you know what a squall line is and the hazards associated? How are we even comparing that to a steady 25kt cross wind? Guessing you don’t fly in AK

Who questioned anyone authority? I didn’t read that anywhere in his post. Now I said that if I found a CFI was struggling with something it would be good to remediate that with them, for both the sake of the business and its clients and also for the progression of the employee to become a more confident pilot.

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Cherokee260@reddit

What does any of this have to do with in Alaska, like remotely? Can instructors scare students off by teaching maneuvers poorly? Sure. Is this one of those cases? Doubtful. You are for some reason assuming the students were CPL applicants (no indication of that, whatsoever). A private pilot should not be learning that routinely exceeding the max demonstrated crosswind for their aircraft is good practice. Once again, it goes back to a matter of actual learning and productivity.

And for the record, it’s pretty clear you didn’t read the comment because it wasn’t a steady wind.

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DependentHorror2081@reddit

The school I’m at we can cancel our flights but we do send a message into a scheduling gc

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Designer_Buy_1650@reddit

A group chat? Ridiculous. A single manager maybe.

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flightist@reddit

Yep. The reality of employing a bunch of 20-somethings in their first job in aviation - and often enough their first serious job ever - is you sometimes need a bit of oversight on the cancellations. Otherwise you’ll see a whole day wiped out because it was crappy in the morning.

A group chat though, is an absolutely wild choice.

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Idonteverusereddit69@reddit

My school started doing this. Originally the owner of the school had it set to 31 days in advance. Almost left the school over it

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CessnaMir@reddit

As a flight school owner, I would lose my marbles if every cancelation had to go through me. That's an insane amount of work, and for what benefit?

If you trust your people to fly airplanes smartly and have good judgement, certainly you can trust them to manage cancelations. Besides, CFI's wanna be out flying getting hours not canceling for bs reasons.

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bambiwalk@reddit

My schools micromanages a to a similar degree for us and as a mom and pop flight school granted it’s not as bad as you have it.

Owners are feeling super burdened by the increased cost of maintenance and decreasing hours/students this past year and they’re trying to reduce cancellations as much as possible. It’s a real pain the butt for me as an instructor since the outcome was the same either way but now there’s so much more work involved

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MovieEuphoric8857@reddit

I worked at a place like that. It was hell. I got around that by always ‘rescheduling’ never canceling

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Cherokee260@reddit

As an independent instructor this sounds like torture

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Cherokee260@reddit

Like, seriously… how demeaning would that be to constantly need to message a group chat? Especially if you had a health concern you were navigating??

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FlyHighLilly@reddit (OP)

Whenever there’s a bad weather day the group chat gets spammed with cancellations lol

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Cherokee260@reddit

Beyond the obvious lack of privacy, it also seems pretty inefficient for that reason.

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

What is the issue with having everyone in a small shop know what’s going on when it comes to airplane availability etc?

No privacy issue there is less you make one, “I have a personal matter and can’t come in today” “Not feeling well, I can’t come in today”

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Cherokee260@reddit

It’s publicly outing and discouraging CFIs from exercising their PIC authority. That’s the issue. If they want to check if aircraft availability has changed, they can check the schedule.

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TheOriginalJBones@reddit

The dream of flight and the love of group chat are not compatible in a sane universe. I’d seriously look for another CFI gig.

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oldbutambulatorty@reddit

IDK the scheduling rules at your school but: I urge students to schedule 3 lessons ahead. Weather, plane grounded, or CFI or student last minute cancellations are common and frustrating. Planning ahead make the process less aggravating.

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TxAggieMike@reddit

As many lessons ahead as possible is what I utilize.

Keeps them motivated.

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Embarrassed_Spirit_1@reddit

That's how my 141 ran it, they also sucked to be fair

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Flying_4fun@reddit

The flight school where I rent has a booking system. Students can cancel with 24hr notice, but need to select a reason from a drop-down. No other questions asked. Reasons are common like weather, maintenance, sickness, and even don't feel like flying. The CFIs can cancel within 24hrs on a student's behalf and select a reason from the same drop-down. Again, there is no real pushback.

I'm sure they run reports on the backend and probably have conversations with students/renters who abuse the system continuously, but the school is very accommodating for the most part.

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Mr-cacahead@reddit

I had so much fun teaching, but it really sucked working as a CFI. I did met some pilots that had a very healthy and well paid CFI position, so lucky them.

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aguy2014@reddit

Just turn it into a notification channel: "I'm cancelling for x/y/x." Not: "can I cancel?"

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89inerEcho@reddit

Its just micromanagement. Generally a sign of a poor running organization

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nl_Kapparrian@reddit

Common at pilot mills with a bunch of low time CFIs, unfortunately.

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FlyHighLilly@reddit (OP)

Funny since I work at a mom and pop

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Tandemrecruit@reddit

That could also explain it

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shadowalker125@reddit

Sometimes it’s for data. We can’t cancel our flight it has to be through our dispatch because they have rules about how to categorize cancellations. It also keeps a paper trail to help enforce our no show agreements. It’s not always a bad thing. But then again we also have training agreements with many 3rd parties and some have minimum meet requirements and other things.

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fungus909@reddit

That’s some pilot mill shit right there. Don’t know what you’re paying but I’d bet good money you’re being ripped off. Go find an other school. That mind set and condition is forcing people to fly when they don’t feel comfortable doing so. Major safety red flag. Money is before safety, leave.

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Cherokee260@reddit

That’s a real stretch based off this one post

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

Why?

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buzzybootft@reddit

Hahah been there done that it’s stupid

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

Not common, not uncommon.

Business wise it makes sense to keep everyone on the same sheet of music, if you drop a flight now others know if they have someone who wants to fly, or the mechanics can see for opportunity mx, etc.

As a CFI/ATP I think it’s smart and as someone who doesn’t abuse the system to really don’t care if someone knows I took a day off for personal matters, no need to get into sensitive deets that ain’t their business.

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AntJo4@reddit

We will let instructors cancel, but they need to document the precise reason why. Not because we don’t trust the instructors, but because this eliminates students trying to come back and say it’s our fault they didn’t progress properly. If we show them that 98% of cancellations were due to weather and here is exactly how and why that weather outside of our limits it shuts down discussion real quick. (Or if we are documenting chronic lateness or unpreparedness… also great)

Even if they want cancellations to go through a central line to manage instructors, there is no reason why you couldn’t call into 1 person on dispatch, this should not be done on a public platform.

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phliar@reddit

Holy cow, sounds like a hostile work environment. The school I work at, my schedule and any cancellations etc. are completely up to me. It could be weather, airworthiness, or my opinion of the students preparedness.

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YakVivid6538@reddit

Fuuuuuuuuck that

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

If CFI’s at our school need to cancel or reschedule for whatever reason such as weather, maintenance, personal health, whatever else, we need to contact the managers on a group chat with all the employees on it. I think this is a strategy to micromanage the instructors and make sure we’re not excessively canceling.

Just wanted to see if this is a common practice or if other schools allow instructors to cancel and reschedule their own flights without going through management.

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