How solvent do you think Jaguar is due to the Waymo partnership, and what brands will survive the next 10 years, and which will not?
Posted by unclefishbits@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 61 comments
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ProjectZeus4000@reddit
Jaguar are just one brand of JLR. Not in the same way they Skoda are part of the VW group, JLR is one company.
Jaguar can lose money the same way the defender or discovery model line can lose money, as long as the company survives and the brand has a future it will be fine
Ego-Death@reddit
This, it’s still shocks me how people think that company struggles. People don’t realize how easy it is for them to make their SUVs and how those things print money. Jaguar Land Rover has literally gone on record saying they don’t care how many times they have to re-launch Jaguar, they will keep doing it until an iteration succeeds. That’s how much money they make off of Land Rover, it’s a trophy car for trophy wives and that company makes disgusting amounts of cash keeping it that way.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
The problem is many people buying SUV in these days and no more people buying sedan and roadster, so Jag is suffering. The brand can't make decent SUV models because SUV is LR territory.
It could be better just selling Jag brand to other automakers. If sedan really demands again, they could just re-launch "Rover" brand instead.
nalydpsycho@reddit
They should be able to. A good Jag SUV should be completely different than a LR SUV.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
But the f face, especially the svr, wasn't it completely different in every way than land rover? Didn't it hit the market decently for production? I really don't know those answers
Dunaii4@reddit
It was different, but your average SUV buyer will get the diesel, and then its Velar sister car parked next to it in the dealership will appeal more just due to the boxier shape.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
100% correct about that. Whenever I saw the f pace, my spelling error I did not correct above, it's an expensive SUV sitting next to a larger more beautiful real giant sexy SUV versus a knock-off toureg. I mean I did like it but I totally get what you're saying. I have now convinced myself that yes it was different, and that isn't good LOL
Dunaii4@reddit
Too bad, between the Velar and SVR the latter has been reviewed as having superior handling while not sacrificing much in terms of ride and I personally liked the Jag looks.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
I agree, it's sporty and probably more fun, and I am not a fan of modern gluttonous Land Rover stuff but the problem with the crossmark key competition is that Jaguar SUV being unknown versus a massive known entity. I saw and heard a couple svr f pace. They were spectacular.
Dunaii4@reddit
The AJ engines are wonderful. I remember my uncle having an L322 and me, despite having quite substantial hearing issues at the time, loving the fact that his car sounded like a race car. I've also found a few SVRs along the road, mostly Range Rovers and an F-type, and they sound so good.
But people want Rangies and that's who pays.
TheRealPizza@reddit
God they just need to sort out reliability issues at launch. They make some great stuff but by the time it’s worth buying most people have forgotten about it
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Rover is owned by SAIC, as is the rest of the Rover Group
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unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
I am not questioning or doubting you but I can't find commentary like that in search do you have a link? That is badass and awesome for somebody having the business sense to subsidize something that is so important in Automotive History that it will eventually work if they are patient. Who does that?
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
Some models subsidizing other models in a tight environment. I get it
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
They're a brand of Tata motors.
ProjectZeus4000@reddit
No.
Tata motors is a company.
JLR is one company and wholly owned by Tata motors. JLR report their finances separately to the rest of Tata motors. Jaguar do not.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Jaguar has no finances currently, but JLR is absolutely part of Tata.
strongmanass@reddit
JLR is part of Tata the same way that Cheerios is part of General Mills. Jaguar is part of JLR the same way Frosted Cheerios is part of the Cheerios brand.
VastStranger1164@reddit
regarding Jaguar it's already been answered.
the other part is more interesting. We saw a large number of new car manufacturers out of China, which most won't survive the next decade. In the end it'll be 2 to 4 companies owning all the brands in China and some long dead European ones.
The more established companies (VW, Toyota, Ford etc.) will probably survive, but hopefully with more realistic prices (looking at VW).
What will happen and is happening are more and more companies are working together to reduce costs. And with latest news of German car makers wanting to develop an independent and open source systems, it'll be very interesting.
I'm looking forward to jailbreaking a car to get all the features that are locked out behind a subscription (fuck all the companies who do that).
learner888@reddit
I expect stellantis to drop at least some of its brands pretty soon (within a year or so)
Their overloaded portfolio doesn't make sense at all, and tavares is out together with his promises to keep all brands. Under new ceo they need at least to show some willingness to do something about their decline. And some brands cleansing is the obvious move. Their brand portfolio is a joke
skorps@reddit
I'm only familiar with their North American offerings. Jeep, Ram obviously are valuable. Dodge I think has a place but needs a lineup rethink. Alfa is cool but I don't think has a place without significant investment they clearly aren't willing to commit to. Maserati I think again needs a lineup change. Go more mc20 and less quatroportte. The legacy Maserati models have lost all brand reputation. Chrysler has no point. Merge with dodge. Fiat is valuable to the corporation but not in the US.
How I see it, Dodge sells affordable crossovers and family vehicles and make some silly but fun muscle. Jeeps goes all in on lifestyle and off road and skip the luxary offerings. Ram does trucks. Maserati does refined high performance. Maybe alfa could take over the luxury suv component of jeep. All of them need to focus on reliability.
Wolfo93@reddit
In EU they have 3 brands that quite closely compete against each other. Opel, Citroen and Peugeot. They all use the same platforms/engines and with the current lineup problem is they are not distinctive enough. VAG was always better to hide those connections. They build SKoda, Seat and VW from the same parts but they are a bit more 'their own'. The sales situation is kind of ok in EU but there is a feeling long term something must change.
kopiernudelfresser@reddit
Yep, and things don't look great for Opel. Unless it's made to be a convincing Skoda/Kia alternative it's the end of the road for them - ironic, since those brands grew by seizing on disgruntled Opel drivers. Astra production is finally ramping up and the new Grandland appears to be doing alright and is the right size, between 3008 and 5008, so there is a possibility. Reliability of both their EVs and the latest iteration of the PureTech is still up in the air, but that's no fault of Opel itself.
If Opel is to succeed, it needs to be allowed to spread its wings outside the few markets it's available in. Now the GM legacy models have all been phased out there are no legal barriers anymore. Had Opel stayed with GM (and thus confined to Europe), it would have gone the way of Holden within a few years.
If the passenger cars don't make it, I could imagine Opel continuing solely with the commercial vehicles.
turniphat@reddit
How important is the RAM brand? I still call them Dodge Rams, but I'm old. Do younger people think of them as their own brand? Would anybody notice is RAM got folded back into Dodge?
kc_kr@reddit
It’s extremely important and that’s why it was separated from Dodge a decade ago. A potential buyer likely wouldn’t want all the baggage of Dodge, just a strong RAM lineup. That and Jeep are the only parts of the North American portfolio with any value.
skorps@reddit
I also kind of think of them as dodge but they are important in that it makes money. Trucks are profitable. I think at this point keep ram it's own thing focused on trucks and vans. Sperate allows them to revamp dodge without interrupting the profitable ram
strongmanass@reddit
Currently they have the MC20 coupé and cielo, the Granturismo and Grancabrio, and the Grecale. They've killed all the models that tanked their reputation. The Quattroporte wasn't really one of those (that was more the Ghibli), but the QP is delayed until 2028.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
I had heard somebody sort of basically suggest Maserati was a different car brand under their Marquee. I wasn't sure how true that was and I can't remember what they were suggesting. Like the Toyota Supra being a bmw.
strongmanass@reddit
The GT and Grecale are both on the Giorgio platform which was developed by Alfa Romeo. And their Nettuno engine "appears to be" an Alfa V6 with pre-ignition added. And the Alfa V6 is itself a Ferrari V8 missing two cylinders. And the MC20 was rumored to be an Alfa Romeo 6C before Maserati took it. And then of course it became the base for the Alfa Romeo 33 Stradale.
So you could say Maseratis are dressed up Alfas, but they're under the same group and they want an even closer relationship going forward.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
Thank you for this and I love you being part of this sub which is why I love this sub. :-) cheers to you
strongmanass@reddit
Thank you. That's really nice of you to say. I really appreciate it.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
And we don't have to have a long relationship LOL, but I just realized lately that it's so easy to just fail humanity. It's much easier to just say something nice to someone you appreciated but we are all so feverishly trying to move forward, people don't say nice things anymore. Hell it might be AI or a robot or whatever.
But seriously, you made me think, I appreciate you, so maybe I'm just making this comment to see more people should do that. Pay it forward, just tell the next person unexpectedly that you really appreciate it
I love that you even commented about it. Thanks much. Now we're friends and the universe is a healthier and happier place :-)
strongmanass@reddit
I like your outlook. This sub can be really negative sometimes and it's a nice change. I will pay it forward.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
The CEO of Jeep a couple years ago said that every time he sees a range Rover on the road he was furious because he knew his brand could fill in that gap. I don't disagree but it has to be a swing for the fences that redefines people's perception like the defender. I have a 95 YJ I've owned since 1994, and after my jlr experience versus the mommy cars of Jeep, I have definitely side-eyed more range rovers than I have gladiators.
thefanciestcat@reddit
Unless something changes, the Waymo gravy train is leaving Jaguar station. They've already started by buying purpose-built alternatives.
jca_ftw@reddit
Jaguar literally stopped making cars. That says all I need to know. If/when they do come back they will just be rebadged cars from other Tata/JLR models. And since sports cars and saloons are not profitable by themselves in a brand, I would not expect them to continue. Look for a rebadged mid SUV to return and that’s about it.
8N-QTTRO@reddit
I think Germany luxury cars are going to see a pretty significant change in the coming years.
I fully expect Audi to either go under completely, or be relegated to SUVs and the RS6. They've been on steady decline for years, and haven't managed to make anything that can pull them out of that rut. They're just stuck in a weird middle ground between VW and Porsche.
Wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes bites the dust, too. I can't remember the last time they made a sedan that people liked, and I hardly ever see anyone -- enthusiast or everyday person -- who really appreciates the brand's current direction.
On the other hand, I can see Porsche thriving. They've really never had a major misstep, even the switch to water-cooled engines ended up being not-that-bad in the long run, and they've managed to push heavily for electric performance vehicles while not sacrificing their internal combustion side of things.
BMW seems to be doing what they've always done: Making cars that enthusiasts don't like now, but they'll be nostalgic for in 20-ish years.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
Audi that's fine, Mercedes that's depressing.
8N-QTTRO@reddit
Audi really could be great, though. They have a fantastic racing history, especially with their success in Group B, and they made some great cars between the '80s and the '00s. They just seem to have completely forgotten how to channel the design and performance standards that made them great.
Mercedes sucks, too, because they clearly have someone there who knows what buyers want. The AMG GT is a fantastic car, and somehow the G-wagon has perfectly found its niche and has a dedicated fanbase. It's just that everything else is disappointing in terms of either awkward styling or lackluster performance.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
It's really interesting how giant the group b thing was, for so long. That racing pedigree and the stuff that came from it was some of the most fun things ever but also super dangerous LOL
We were looking at new cars and stopped by the Audi dealership everything just felt off and other than the ones you mentioned it just felt lackluster.
It is interesting to think if Marquee brands may end up just having a lineup of one or two cars until they fade into obscurity
8N-QTTRO@reddit
Yeah, there's a reason nearly every Audi enthusiast has an older car from the brand. They've just stagnated in the past decade, and all of their recent offerings are either lackluster or prohibitively expensive. I doubt Audi will ever be truly obscure, but I could definitely see their entire business model shifting into white SUVs parked outside upper-middle-class homes.
nyanslider@reddit
I wouldn't call it surviving, but the chances of Fisker trying something again 10 years later is not zero
AndroidUser37@reddit
Maybe third time's the charm!
InternMan@reddit
Fourth if you count Henrik's ill-fated and short lived Fisker coachbuilding endeavor where they rebodied Mercedes SL55s and BMW 6-series.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
I live in Marin and there are a couple original fiskars still on the road, and I definitely see the ocean or whatever it is all around the place, even though it has major problems from a consumer index standpoint
driftking428@reddit
I was so pumped for the Pear. I legit meet have bought one.
lordtema@reddit
I think the reason Jaguar exists today is because JLR makes bank off Range Rovers & Land Rovers, i dont think the Waymo partnership made any real big difference. According to what i can find online it`s about 2000 cars or so that they have, which is not exactly a whole lot for a manufacturer of Jaguars size.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
In 2018 it was 20,000 cars that way my purchased from Jaguar. According to the wiki.
lordtema@reddit
I believe the intention was to buy 20k but given Waymos current fleet size, it never materialized
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
That makes perfect sense. I was just reading words not living in reality LOL
hi_im_bored13@reddit
the Waymo partnership is near irrelevant, they are solvent and will continue to be because Land Rover prints money
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
So it is just the backing of Tata subsidizing Jaguar as a marquee brand because of how much they bring in with land rover. Fair.
mintz41@reddit
It's not really anything to do with Tata. Jaguar and Land Rover are the same company - JLR. The Land Rover models make so much money that it really doesn't matter what happens to the Jaguar models.
snoo-boop@reddit
Waymo partnered with Hyundai / Ioniq 5 at the end of 2024, with testing starting "late 2025".
It was probably a big plus that Magna actually physically builds those I-Pace cars, but the factory is in Austria.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
It is funny because the old Audi designer started on the Kia and even though I like the Hyundai, coming from a period where they had no frame and they were garbage, the Kia ev6 is so wonderful. But so is the hyundai. And both are functional and capable versus something twice as expensive. And I am a jaguar fan.
But it's been really impressive to see what used to be sort of cut rate and third Rate brands really storm functionality within the marketplace to the point that it's becoming difficult to choose a Tesla over one of these two brands that used to get hate.
And let me tell you as somebody that loved my pollstar two, that brand is going to fail. I can't talk about the pollstar 3 yet, and yes I'm letting it be misspelled on purpose, cuz I need my check from the lease buy back LOL
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
The Waymo partnership is basically dead, but they intend to live on as a superlux brand. We will see how that works out.
unclefishbits@reddit (OP)
I did just notice that the 2024 is the last year model, so that's actually a really interesting point I hadn't sussed out. It's definitely dependent on how they view the next model of car, I bet that's already happening.
Fabulous-Celery4141@reddit
Partnership boosts relevance, while it does not fully secure long-term solvency.
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