Leave for Ulcc or Upgrade?

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ThatLooksRight@reddit

Probably depends on which regional and which ULCC.

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YakVivid6538@reddit

Yeah, definitely need more info on this. I will bias slightly towards regional upgrade if OP can continue living in base.

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Sounds like it’s SY. I’m in this boat as well. Unlike the other (U)LCCs, SY actually seems fairly stable, so it’s very tempting. But is it worth sacrificing the opportunity of PIC time in the near future? Eh

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JasonThree@reddit

Im there, you could upgrade pretty quick.

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ChecksChecksChecks57@reddit

Am I correct in understanding it’s just a year requirement on property to upgrade since most folks don’t want to at this point? (Assuming you’re comfortable with the plane a year in of course)

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JasonThree@reddit

And 500 hours at the company.

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ChecksChecksChecks57@reddit

Cool, thanks for the insight

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lil_layne@reddit

Well we know one ULCC is out of the question

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SevenFortySwole@reddit

Pretty sure only one of the ULCCs is hiring/left?

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lil_layne@reddit

There still is Frontier, Allegiant, Sun Country, Breeze, Avelo. I have no idea which of them are actively hiring.

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SevenFortySwole@reddit

Is sun country and allegiant a ULCC? Thought they were just LCC. Minor detail either way lol

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EdBasqueMaster@reddit

Both are very ULCC. Especially Allegiant.

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SevenFortySwole@reddit

Idk I was at spirit can’t get much worse 😂

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ThatLooksRight@reddit

A-yup

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Consistent_Employ975@reddit (OP)

Currently at a UA regional, the low cost would be SY

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ThatLooksRight@reddit

Isn’t Sun country mostly day trips now? Or no.

If it is, that’d be an awful commute.

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JasonThree@reddit

Outside of this month, it's usually about a third day trips and mostly 4 and 5 day trips with some 2 and 3s in there too. Lot of cargo flying on the longer trips. This month there's very few one day trips.

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Consistent_Employ975@reddit (OP)

Honestly if I get it and take it I’d move in base. I’m so torn on it

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mr_krombopulos69@reddit

Curious as to who the low cost is. I got furloughed from spirit and frontier pushed my class date indefinitely.

Personally I have no faith in the low cost model. Currently at a big regional and planning to stay until I can get on with a major.

PIC is more valuable than SIC regardless of type. If you’re just chasing QOL the low cost is probably better in the short term.

All depends on where you want to end up long term.

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pilotguy-44@reddit

And a paycheck/job security is more important than anything else. Take a class date with the ULCC, you don’t have to,tell your current job until 2 weeks prior to leaving.

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legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit

Allegiant?

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kiwi_love777@reddit

Breeze? Or Avelo?

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EsquireRed@reddit

I’m at Allegiant and have been told no hiring until next year at the earliest, but I don’t have any insider info either. 🤷‍♂️

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I_am_Mun_C@reddit

Probably Breeze

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ObeyYourMasterr@reddit

This has to be a troll post and/or a hypothetical question

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Historical-Baby-1364@reddit

Legacy pilot interviewer here. Def stay and upgrade. Any 121 PIC > ULCC SIC. Forget QOL, it’s all temporary.

Lots of people who jumped to ULCCs really hosed themselves, and aren’t competitive anymore without PIC time.

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Joe_Littles@reddit

How does that explain the increasing number of ULCC guys getting interviews and CJOs in the last few weeks without any captain time?

Not to mention, I know a person at my preferred legacy target who is a CA & on the interview team and when asking them for a recommendation (to help land an interview) the only thing they asked me is if I had 1000 turbine or not. Not a peep about PIC time. Maybe your legacy is different, but 2/3 are def hiring without TPIC.

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Historical-Baby-1364@reddit

121 PIC will always beat any SIC. In the eyes of our team, we don't see any 121 time to be better than others (ULCC/Regional). Sure, some might get through with lots of time, clean record, degrees, recommendations, sure. But you would need much less total time if you had 121 PIC. Remember, there are published mins, and there are competitive mins - much different.

Also, it changes daily. This is just what has been consistent in the last year at our company. And our company has different standards than others.

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Joe_Littles@reddit

Def. Won’t bother asking which one, but I have my guess. No argument against PIC time, but it seems there are other ways for people to get their foot in the door at least at my legacy of preference.

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Historical-Baby-1364@reddit

Another thing to consider is the \~3 months of flight time you will lose while switching airlines and going through long-term training. People will be passing you up.

The regionals have strong year-long contracts and the financial backing of their legacies. They aren't going away anytime soon. As we saw this week, the largest ULCC is on the brink of collapse. I have been in this industry for a long time, and I wouldn't risk it. Suck it up, fly the RJ, and enjoy the ride.

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Joe_Littles@reddit

Well some of us went straight to ULCCs so no other option 😆

Could I DM for some critique or advice? Feel free to say no.

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Historical-Baby-1364@reddit

For sure. I’ve had a lot of help along the way, and happy to help!

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Joe_Littles@reddit

Sent!

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legendfrog3@reddit

Hard to recommend jumping ship anywhere right now until the industry picks up.

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ChecksChecksChecks57@reddit

Out of curiosity, is this for SY? I’m in the same boat. Leaning towards staying, but if the music stops, I’d much rather be over there than at my regional

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Consistent_Employ975@reddit (OP)

Yep I’m in the same boat

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EdBasqueMaster@reddit

Fwiw, pre-covid, SY was the first ‘major’ airline to call me. It felt like I won the lottery.

After deliberation very similar to yours, I turned them down.

It ended up being the best career decision I ever made.

That extra 6 months where I was building PIC was everything for where I am now.

Obviously times are different but believe me when I say I know how exciting it is to actually get a nibble on an application.

I was in your shoes and I waited it out. It was not an easy choice. But in the end, for me, it was the right choice.

Knowing what I know now and having worked alongside legacy hiring boards, I’d stay the course.

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reidmrdotcom@reddit

Take whatever comes first. If the ULCC is solid take that if it comes. Pursue both. Though, a solid regional with more seniority may be more stable than an ULCC losing money. Look at the recent financials of the ULCC you are considering and see if they are losing money.

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Liqu0rBaIISandwich@reddit

No such thing as a solid ULCC.

I’m joking, but barely.

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reidmrdotcom@reddit

Yeah, thinks really shifted. In 2019 I tracked and wrote down all the top airlines net income amongst other numbers, and today things shifted dramatically. In 2019 Spirit and Allegiant were really profitable, now Spirit has gone bankrupt.

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Consistent_Employ975@reddit (OP)

So I’m currently at a United regional on the 145

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changgerz@reddit

is United your end goal?

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Consistent_Employ975@reddit (OP)

Honestly I’ll go to any of them, I’m in the flow but need 1200 pic for it

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XxVcVxX@reddit

1200 pic is like 18 months. By the time you get into class, finish training and OE at a ULCC you'll be 4-5 months deep.

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changgerz@reddit

18 months plus however long it takes for his flow number to come up, assuming the flow exists then

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XxVcVxX@reddit

At this point, probably same chances of the ULCC existing too

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reidmrdotcom@reddit

Looks like you for sure want a legacy. In that case, and considering you have some flow, I think staying for the flow is worth a lot of peace of mind. In that case I’d take the upgrade and only take a legacy position. Who knows how long it’ll take, there will always be someone who got there faster, but a flow is worth a lot.

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McDrummerSLR@reddit

Upgrade. Most everyone I know that went to a LCC in lieu of upgrade is regretting it now because no one is calling them. The one guy I know that did get a call is prior non-flying military.

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Liqu0rBaIISandwich@reddit

Upgrade and get 121 PIC. I’m at a ULCC and I greatly regret leaving my regional for it. I’m making less money as an FO than I would be as a Regional CA. Started my seniority again. And am not any closer to a legacy. And ULCCs treat their employees like garbage.

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greenflash1775@reddit

Bro, you’re in the flow. Whatever you do at a ULCC it won’t be faster than the flow or getting hired at another legacy because they’re poaching the UA flow at 1000 hours.

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blueridgeblah@reddit

Upgrade.. stay for the ‘carrot’. Worked for me but every 6 months the environment changes.

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PilotGuy85@reddit

You can probably upgrade and stack 500 TPIC before a ULCC gets you in class.

So there’s not much of a decision to make. Go interview. Get the CJO. Then worry about it when you have to make the jump. Until then, do both.

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sirpsychosexy8@reddit

This is always the answer. Do as much as you possibly can until you’ve made it to your dream spot. I was upgrading at a “legacy” while interviewing at another legacy (big three)

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

If that’s your goal stay and upgrade

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EdBasqueMaster@reddit

Upgrade without a doubt. Golden opportunity to get 121 TPIC. That will be valuable forever. It may be stagnant right now but that TPIC will be worth a lot.

You can always go to a ULCC in the future if nothing is happening.

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SmoothAnteater4519@reddit

I cannot emphasize this enough. Do whatever you can see yourself doing for a decade or more in case the music stops. Anyone who says “legacies prefer xyz” are full of shit. Airlines hire a massively diverse group of pilots and it’s not one silver bullet that will get you in. Good pay, good QOL, good company. Don’t sacrifice something now because “maybe that’ll get me a job somewhere else later”.

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Key_Island8223@reddit

Legacies hire diverse groups...THAT MEET THEIR COMPETITIVE MINIMUMS.

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SmoothAnteater4519@reddit

Ionnno man. Me and all my friends got hired and there were people in the room with way more impressive flying resumes. Having a strong resume is as important as being personable and interesting.

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Key_Island8223@reddit

And at the time, you met the competitive minimums. Those others exceeded it.

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Negative_Swan_9459@reddit

Guessing this was during the hiring boom when everyone was getting an interview.

During normal times just getting the algorithm to toss you in the interview pile is the hard part. TPIC, college, check pilot, extras.

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changgerz@reddit

agree with your comment except legacies 100% prefer PIC time

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ce402@reddit

While saying Legacies do hire from a diverse background of experiences is not untrue, “diverse” is doing some heavy lifting in that sentence.

Most of a new hire class will fit into one of two boxes-

Military pilot. Current or former 121 turbojet captain.

Yes, there will be a handful of guys with just 121 SIC, only turboprop time, or 91/135 only experience. But they will be the glaring minority in class, and often have other feathers in their cap; union or management leadership experience, instructor experience in the training department, family connections in the training department at said Legacy, incredible timing to meet the minimum koalifications during a once in a generation hiring boom…

I passed on Spirit in 2016 when I was laid off from my last corporate position and went the regional route. At the time, it would have been 3 years at Spirit to make what I was making as a captain at said regional, while commuting. After they got their new contract and things started slowing down, there was a time I debated if I made the right call. It worked out and I got picked up in ‘21 at a Legacy.

The pendulum is swinging, and airline hiring departments want a known quantity when hiring. Do your best to put yourself in that 90% bucket ASAP if your goal is a legacy.

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DudeSchlong@reddit

If a legacy wants PIC time why put it off longer?

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TheVerminSupreme@reddit

Just upgrade. Ive seen too many regional FOs scared to upgrade and make a jump only to be 1 in a million in a pool with no PIC and a bus type..yea the extra type looks ok...but passing captain upgrade will be more valuable and set you apart imo.

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Skynet_lives@reddit

121 TPIC all day if you want to go legacies. Going to the ULCC puts you as a SIC for at least another year or two.

That’s before all the other stuff like having to move for the ULCC.

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cdn737driver@reddit

Are ULCC’s in the us mostly single day trips and not commuter friendly ?

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Skynet_lives@reddit

I don’t know about most, but a few are. Since he says he would have to move for the ULCC I assume it’s a day turn ULCC.

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cdn737driver@reddit

Oops, missed that in the post! Thanks for the response anyway

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

pic 121 time will get you to the legacies faster

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FishPilot@reddit

I’d argue that ULCC will get you to legacies faster. In fact, I’ve seen it first hand many times. Legacies will hire to remove completion from ULCC before they poach from their own regional pool all day.

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hanjaseightfive@reddit

“all day” 🤔

I’d say (practically) every FO and the bottom 1/3 of the CA list every ULCC has their apps in at a legacy.

The big 3 could’ve CJO’d the ULCCs into oblivion if they wanted to, yet ULCCs still exist and plenty of regional guys ended up with jobs over the last 10-15 years.

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FishPilot@reddit

Before the slowdown? Yes. All day. There’s hiring agreements in place and there’s a hiring standard/practice that the legacies have to adhere to . Just like the other redditor said: they want a diversified stack of pilots and they’ll take whatever doesn’t hurt them the most. That’s why, given the option between taking a Capt from their own regional, and taking an FO from a ULCC, who would they logically go with? Regardless of the slow down, this is still in practice.

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Joe_Littles@reddit

It still is in practice, I have the friends and industry peers to prove it. ULCC folks deal with a lot as CA and FO, have passed mainline training, deal with virtually no support after push, etc. the guys doing more than flying the line, even with no TPIC, will have their shot.

I can envision that airline big wigs have a spread they want to accomplish, and most LCC captains do not want to move on (NK aside). They aren’t going to fill their classes with low time FOs but it is clearer than ever to me that it’s still quite possible, especially for the well put together sharp folks, and those folks have no shortage of network connections either.

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Baystate411@reddit

this was true like 2 years ago but not sure if it works now

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Joe_Littles@reddit

It’s happening again. I know a shocking number of guys getting picked up in the last 10 days with 0 TPIC, minimal volunteer time, nothing special besides a meet and greet over a year ago. A few spirit, a pair not. And with hiring going up again, I can imagine the ULCC to legacy pipeline will be an option again. It won’t be 6 months at said ULCC, though, and i suspect many will need something like volunteer leadership, serving in the union, etc.

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FishPilot@reddit

Yeah. You’re right. Especially with the exodus from JB, NK, ect…

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SmoothAnteater4519@reddit

Honestly all really good advice. I just have the perspective of never putting yourself in a position where if there music stopped, you’d be unhappy for a decade. Because the music will stop and no one knows when. Maybe I’m just hedging my bets more than others. Go work where you wanna work for the foreseeable future. Keep in mind what legacies want on your resume but don’t go specifically to a company because it’ll boost your resume. That’s my $0.02.

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Negative_Swan_9459@reddit

The pre Covid move was to stay and upgrade, build your resume, and if you get 2-3k tpic and legacy is still not calling? Move to LCC.

I would only jump to LCC if you can see yourself staying for awhile or you don’t have college.

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Sneakrz63@reddit

If you have the PIC needed for the legacy (not what they currently want but what you think they will want 13 mo from now), then consider QOL. The reality is you are just doing A to B safely until the Legacy hiring window opens.

If there is a box in the Lagacy carries requirement that you won't check a year from now, do what ever it takes to get it (screw QOL - your QOL will come with a higher seniority number).

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

So I’m currently a first officer at a smaller regional carrier, I’m just about to upgrade. I have an interview with a low cost coming up and I’m not really sure what I’m gonna do if I’m offered the job. I currently live in base and would have to move if I took this job to avoid commuting. But my regional is also pretty behind on upgrades and I’m probably not gonna go until December or January. My end goal is the legacies and I know they want pic time, I’m also kind of tired of the regional life and our captains put up with a ton of bs from dispatch and scheduling. Curious if anyone has any thoughts?

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