Line up and wait
Posted by Imaloserbabys@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 89 comments
Why do people lineup and wait at non-tower airports. Just yesterday I was flying and I just took off and the plane behind me immediately got on the runway and declared that he was lining up and waiting. The airplane that was about to land had to do a 360 because this person was now sitting on the runway. My question is why do people do this?
JasonThree@reddit
I would do it. Gotta find space somehow and im not waiting 20 minutes for people in the pattern to never make room for a departure.
Thiccy_ape@reddit
At certain airports, the pattern can be so busy that the only way to get off the ground is to line up and wait. What I mean by this is, the spacing for the folks in the pattern is such that you wait till one airplane lands, line up and wait during their rollout and as soon as they’re off the runway, depart immediately, giving the next guy just enough time to land behind you, you have to be watching and listening carefully to figure out where everyone is at. This is really risky but I don’t recommend it but when you sit there for 15 min waiting for a gap that never comes, it gets frustrating. The worst is when it’s busy like that, and some guy decides to do stop and goes. I’ve done it before under those circumstances, but I usually make sure I have a visual on everyone, know where the base and final traffic are at, and use adsb to confirm it, wait for a good enough gap in traffic.
Imaloserbabys@reddit (OP)
I guess I could understand that where the airport is so busy that you can’t get out but usually airports like that do have a tower. I can recall once that I was at Lantana in Florida and they were just doing touch and goes to a point where there wasn’t a break and I literally Had to sneak in between two planes. Nonetheless, I think it’s rude to pull out onto the runway and just sit there. If you’re experienced, you can do a rolling takeoff and not stop at the centerline.
Thiccy_ape@reddit
You’d be surprised, a lot of airports in the PNW are like this during sunny days in the fall and winter with 6-9 people in the pattern doing touch n goes and I haven’t found any other way to get off the ground. My home airport is like this fairly often. It should be a class D but it isn’t and it turns into an absolute shit show.
Key_Slide_7302@reddit
Not really good ADM on the pilot who did that with a plane on final.
I have done it in the past as well. Uncontrolled airport, early mornings before tower opened, and there were about 8 of us trying to get out every morning. Nobody was in the pattern and we were all leaving the area, so LUAW was a more efficient way to be ready as soon as the plane ahead was off the runway and turning out. For our airport this was a normal operation when tower was open.
Knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t do it again. It would have been just as efficient to roll onto the runway and takeoff as the plane ahead was rotating.
BandicootNo4431@reddit
It also means the airplane now can't come back to the runway if they have an engine failure
Plastic_Brick_1060@reddit
You'd prefer everyone keeps the runway clear until you're out of glide range?
BandicootNo4431@reddit
I might take the runway, but I usually wait until someone turns crosswind to takeoff.
I never said it's regulatory, it's just my technique.
Key_Slide_7302@reddit
Varies by airport. We had taxiways and safety areas in all directions, so finding an uncontaminated place to land wasn’t as big of a concern as it would be for a single runway without a taxiway on either side.
ParagPa@reddit
Exactly the same. I've done this before also, for the same reason (including with my CFI). After reading all the responses to this and a previous post on the same topic, I wouldn't do it again.
Always learning!
USMCMikey@reddit
Worth a note to your local FSDO with call sign, time, location. I do not believe this procedure was ever or is now intended to be a self declaration and also creates confusion and possibly an unsafe situation.
Imaloserbabys@reddit (OP)
I’m not a rat. I’m not going to call anybody out. I’m just simply venting about how annoying it is.
tomdarch@reddit
What you're describing is moderately sketchy. DO "rat out" people who are doing genuinely dangerous stuff.
USMCMikey@reddit
I don’t think your ratting on anyone but when people do things that cause an unsafe condition and no one says anything others hear it or see it and think hey that’s cool then it becomes one of those pre-cursors to an accident and everyone says “we all do it”. If you don’t want to tell the FSDO the call sign that’s Fine but he needs to know and heck he may even say it’s totally fine and we all learn something.
Chasinclouds80@reddit
Yeah, my life as a CFI at a non towered field. Problem is, people are in a hurry, they refuse to wait for one more plane to land before they can take off. No different from people driving, turning in front of someone, completely cutting them off, when they very easily could’ve waited for them to pass. Just arrogance and being a dick.
tomdarch@reddit
Did you ever "line up and wait" when working on things like short field takeoffs? A few weeks ago, someone was doing this ahead of us at the non-towered field I fly out of and a CFI thought (speculated?) that they were doing it for short or soft field practice.
Sad-Umpire6000@reddit
Many - maybe most - GA pilots don’t really know runway separation criteria. BLUF, light singles can have two planes on the runway with 3,000 feet of separation. If a plane is on the roll, once he’s 3,000 down the runway, the guy on final can touch down. Ample room for the landing aircraft to stop even if the departure aborts. Or you can take the runway and go full power as soon as the landing traffic is 3,000 feet past you. More than enough room to get to just short of liftoff speed, abort, and stop.
But LUAW is a bad idea at non-towered fields because your back is to landing traffic (and there could be a NORDO who snuck in, or who was there in the pattern the whole time but you didn’t see him because it’s really small or blended into the background), and a lot of pilots wait too long to get rolling. I think a big part of it is that so many - especially 141 products - are used to mile-long runways, and aren’t somewhere between uncomfortable and terrified of 2,000 feet or less.
https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/landing-separation-requirements-tower-and-non-towered-distance-requirements/
tomdarch@reddit
It's nice that another aircraft may be permitted to be 3,000 feet down the runway and airborne, but at a non-towered airport, I'm going to give more gap to an aircraft taking off before I start into the runway. (I avoid "dawdling" once I cross the hold short line.)
erat08@reddit
This is not accurate, a departing plane would need to be 3,000 ft and Airborne. You're confusing the separation minima for two arrivals, not a departure and arrival. You also cannot "go full power" once an aircraft is 3,000 ft past you. A/C can't begin takeoff roll unless preceding departing A/C is at minimum 3,000 ft and airborne. If the aircraft in front of you is an arrival, they must be clear of the runway prior to your departure roll.
Sad-Umpire6000@reddit
Good clarification- thanks!
MoreSpoiler@reddit
Don’t think it’s a GA thing, and non towered is a factor.
Also I always use my eyeballs, radios and ADSB are fun, radio call or not I still use the windows
AJsarge@reddit
The J3 cub on downwind at 500' with no radios is 110% why you use your eyeballs.
MoreSpoiler@reddit
Or a cirrus who’s on the wrong frequency
Or 135 turbine who is talking to approach and never bothered to say anything of ctaf
Or if your radio isn’t receiving for some reason
BandicootNo4431@reddit
I don't like it because of a potential go around requirement.
Let's say the guy in front stops at 3000' for whatever reason and now the guy who is about to touch down after floating a bit decides he needs to go flying again.
That 3000' gets eaten up pretty fast.
I would just avoid it.
Proper_Hedgehog3579@reddit
The problem I have with that when flying a much faster piston single is I always catch the departing traffic. Most of the trainers do a 2 mile upwind. I usually turn crosswind at pattern altitude within a quarter mile from the end of the runway and depart over them. Not an ideal situation but I’m much higher than them and pass in front of them. I can keep a visual until just before I pass over them.
Classic-Event3805@reddit
Tbh I don’t want to blame them. Everyone was once a student pilot. It was just bad judgement of spacing, I think they don’t know when it’s enough to take off and not be too close the plane who just took off.
pdxcanuck@reddit
This is the correct answer.
Imaloserbabys@reddit (OP)
I disagree. I don’t think a student pilot is even familiar with the term lineup and wait unless it’s from ATC. The only way they’re using it is because they learned it from their instructor. I think it’s more common from people who have been flying longer and just want to cut it.
theoriginalturk@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/1n0mzfe/line_up_and_wait_at_an_uncontrolled/
Imaloserbabys@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this thread. I didn’t know it existed.
kernpanic@reddit
So they are lining up and waiting. Waiting for what?
Imaloserbabys@reddit (OP)
Exactly. But this is what they’re saying. Obviously, it used to be “position and hold”. So obviously they got the jargon correct
imlooking4agirl@reddit
At my flight school it’s done for “efficiency.” I disagree with it because I find it unnecessarily risky but every instructor I’ve flown with at this school does it.
Imaloserbabys@reddit (OP)
Just out of curiosity, how many times do pilots have to make 360s or go around because someone sitting on the runway?
imlooking4agirl@reddit
I’ve only had it happen once in my nearly a year of flying out of that flight school
Av8tr1@reddit
Let me guess. ATP?
imlooking4agirl@reddit
Nah not ATP a local 141 in my area.
YakVivid6538@reddit
If a flight school is teaching that, they're probably also doing other things wrong. I concur with the other guy.
Av8tr1@reddit
You need to find a different school. No telling what other bad habits they are teaching you.
juciy_p@reddit
Line up and wait is only allowed for FAA towers. I operate out of KLAL (towered) and they are not allow to do this because they are not contracted by the FAA. There are articles from the FAA about this.
Imaloserbabys@reddit (OP)
Since you’re from Lakeland, I will tell you this occurs regularly at Zephyrhills.
YakVivid6538@reddit
Everything in this comment is wrong. LAL is an FAA tower and I've been told to line up and wait there plenty of times.
dragonguy0@reddit
Time/spacing. If you're halfway down the runway and someone just turned base you'll probably be able to make it out. If you wait you're probably waiting until the guy is clear or airborne.
Doing it when someone is on final is just a dick/dumbass move though.
Imaloserbabys@reddit (OP)
I disagree, there is absolutely no reason to line up and wait at a non-tower airport. Once the plane has departed if you have time, there’s no reason you can’t do a rolling takeoff. If you’re experienced, you don’t have to stop on the center line just keep going. Maybe things are different if you have a jet, but there’s no reason piston planes can’t do a rolling takeoff.
mctomtom@reddit
I’ve heard of people saying short delay at non-towered for short field takeoff, but never line up and wait.
Imaloserbabys@reddit (OP)
I have heard this several times. Generally, I think it’s more experienced people who don’t want to wait and don’t care if they cut in front of people
External_Aside6338@reddit
My flight school had to send several messages to all students reminding them of appropriate non-towered airport procedures for when our tower closes. They said to refrain to proper procedures, and to report others who didn’t. Line up and wait, straight in landings, modified bases, etc. were seen in abundance. I think that complacency and arrogance as many stated is the biggest contributing factor.
Imaloserbabys@reddit (OP)
I don’t have a problem with people, extending their base leg or even doing a straight in approach. As long as they call it out and let everyone know what they’re doing then that’s perfectly fine. But sitting on the runway when people are trying to land who have right of way is just wrong.
Rev-777@reddit
Inexperience, poor situational awareness, arrogance.
A mixture of these, presumably.
LondonPilot@reddit
I think it can be narrowed down to something more specific than this, in many cases - and that is that it’s something they see at controlled fields, so they think it’s acceptable.
ATC have a better picture of what’s going on than we do. If there are two departures, ATC can see that there won’t be any arrivals in between the departures, and can safely issue a Line Up And Wait.
Pilots perhaps see this, but don’t see the planning and the wider understanding that goes into it. So they think they can recreate it. Of course, we know that they can’t safely do so. Whilst on the runway waiting, someone may turn onto final who the pilot hadn’t been aware of before - in an ATC environment, that wouldn’t happen, but in an uncontrolled environment it can, and it can result in a dangerous situation.
There is no doubt some overlap between what I’ve said and what you’ve said… but I think you’ve glossed over the reasons why inexperience, for example, results in this specific problem. The answer is they see it elsewhere, where the circumstances are different, and assume they can do the same.
RavenholdIV@reddit
I dont buy the "its how controlled fields do it" reasoning. Maybe I'm at a busy class D but I've had a few moments of chilling at the hold short line while the airspace is busy and several planes in a row get landing clearance. Hell, it happened during my first solo. Imma be real, this is straight up arrogance and impatience bc there's no sky police to pull you over for flying like an asshole. Homie probably speeds in residential neighborhoods too.
ab0ngcd@reddit
And poor training. In a high wing aircraft you have to pivot around a bit to check for aircraft in the pattern that are not on the radio. It was much more common in the old days when there was no guarantee that other airplanes had a radio or if your own plane had a radio.
PhilRubdiez@reddit
I’d argue the opposite inexperience. I think it’s more likely to see the “I’ve been doing it this way for 30 years, it’s fine” private pilots than some new private. It ties into arrogance, but I’d say it’s more of an invulnerability attitude.
Rev-777@reddit
As I said, arrogance.
derdubb@reddit
This
Creative-Grocery2581@reddit
In my first school everyone would be back to practice traffic patterns at the same time and that was very common. My CFI was constantly in a rush to go and I was barely learning anything. It was like he was flying the plane while I watched.
timfountain4444@reddit
The plane taking the runway was supposed to give way to the landing plane. But putting your plane on the runway and then announcing that you are lining up and waiting was a major dickhead move.
mkosmo@reddit
You know he did it in order to try to convince the landing traffic to slow down. He was trying to force the gap.
timfountain4444@reddit
No, I really don't know he did it to force the land traffic to slow down. It's inappropriate and any half decent pilot will be flying the numbers. Slowing down when low, slow and dirty is not a great idea... He did it because he was an entitled douche nozzle. In most cases it would force a g/a and a potential for a traffic conflict. And if he was trying to fit into the gap, he would not have lined up and waited, he would have done his best to take the runway and depart as quickly as he could.
And, as I said upthread, the regs are very clear on who had priority.
kytulu@reddit
That's when you land anyway, and make sure that you are at a safe speed before you turn off onto the taxiway. If that takes the entire length of the runway, then "oh, well... 3000ft of separation is allowed"...
mkosmo@reddit
I have no qualms about landing with another aircraft a few thousand feet down the same runway... but landing ahead of traffic holding short on the numbers? That'd give me pause lol.
theoriginalturk@reddit
You’d think pilots are cordial
But aviation has more than its fair share of dickheads
timfountain4444@reddit
Most are and it’s a rules based system so most play by the rules. But there’s always one….
downvoted_pilot@reddit
There's more than one. There are a lot of pilots with poor attitudes that contribute to problems.
Shallowbrook6367@reddit
Upvoted.
JSTootell@reddit
Plane = money Money = selfish
I'm not even wealthy and I'm selfish. I have to remind myself not to be a dick. Some people don't have that inner monologue.
walleyednj@reddit
Got money, got plane, I was just raised not to be an asshole. Ain’t that difficult.
Armchair_driver@reddit
He probably tired of people doing landing practice not building gaps for departures.. happens at KGIF regularly.
Icy-Bar-9712@reddit
I try to always be aware if someone holding short has been there for a minute or two. If I'm doing a taxi back with a student I'll check and see if they are ready to go, if so it takes about 20 seconds of extra downwind to give them enough space to get out.
Same with instrument approaches. I can side step off the runway and let someone out.
Pay it forward people.
EvilMorty137@reddit
I’ve seen multiple times pilots doing this and then doing what appears to be a run up while sitting there
BeginningTotal7378@reddit
I think you already know the answer to this question.
Dogmanscott63@reddit
When I hear this at any of the pilot controlled airports a fly in and out of i scream inside...then look at my student and tell them to never ever do that.
MoreSpoiler@reddit
Because time is money
Now taking the runway and making a plane do a go around is not cool and against the FAR even
Plastic_Brick_1060@reddit
I'll do it in a citation to give 74 knot departing traffic separation while letting anyone else know I'm definitely next. It's generally less than ten seconds, still a bit of a dick move but hard to get going in some places if I don't bully my way out
YakVivid6538@reddit
I'll argue this is the only time it does kinda make sense. Dudes rolling around in Rotaxes burning 3gph don't realize how expensive it is for that jet to sit there while they fly a bomber pattern and a 50kt final, so sometimes the expensive guy has to kinda make his own room.
NYPuppers@reddit
The only time this seems valid is if 8 planes are in the pattern just doing touch and goes and not giving any way to departing traffic.
Any_Cod2505@reddit
Only valid time at a non towered is if you got an IFR release time that is short in duration and you need to get out between pattern traffic. Other then this it’s comical
Carlito_2112@reddit
If you have something like that, would holding short of the runway not accomplish the same thing?
Any_Cod2505@reddit
Not in the event clearance gave you 2 minutes to be airborne by and you’re trying to fit in between 5 aircraft in the pattern.
downvoted_pilot@reddit
You know you can advise ATC that you won't be able to make the void time?
buzzly@reddit
you don’t need to line up before you can wait. You can wait first.
Dmackman1969@reddit
When it’s clear and spacing allows for departing/arriving traffic, I find getting off the damn runway is the best policy. Full stop, nope, why wear down the brakes, I’ve got momentum, I’m GTFO.
Pulling up and sitting? That sounds dangerous as hell unless I have ATC directing traffic.
So your answer is stupidity, arrogance, impatience or ignorance.
jpcanty@reddit
We had a guy at my old uncontrolled field that was an senior airline pilot and he did that alllllll the time. Makes me wonder what the percentage of pilot who do this are airline pilots.
bhalter80@reddit
I had a flight school plane do this yesterday with a CFI at an airport with 1 runway. If there were intersecting runways I could see it being a help but 1 runway just blocks other planes from landing or puts them on a collision course with you if they don't realize
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Foolish. It's never a good idea to not be able to clear traffic on final at an uncontrolled airport.
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
The answer to most things is stupidity.
I see people all the time in the most simplest aircraft do a run up, then pull on the runway and do some dumbass checklist like they are flying the blackbird. In most planes I’m rolling off the taxiway and right down the runway to gtf out of there.
MEINSHNAKE@reddit
Just wait until the departing aircraft is clear of the runway and take position, you can do your line ups behind the hold short line and do an immediate departure if you really want to get going.
retardhood@reddit
Gotta feel like a BIG AIRPLANE
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Why do people lineup and wait at non-tower airports. Just yesterday I was flying and I just took off and the plane behind me immediately got on the runway and declared that he was lining up and waiting. The airplane that was about to land had to do a 360 because this person was now sitting on the runway. My question is why do people do this?
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