I get what the article is saying, and the younger me would have agreed 100%. The struggle was the whole point.
But now? When I'm 50 miles from the nearest paved road with my family in the truck, I'm not looking for a "fun" challenge. I'm looking for the 'get me home safely' button. The new tech isn't about making it easy, it's about making it reliable. The fun for me these days is in the peace of mind.
It's funny to me that a side by side is the same size as a jeep TJ. But they are 4x the price, not street legal, have no air conditioning, and are less reliable
This is the exact "justification" I used when getting my TJ. It's my ATV that I can commute in, I don't need to buy and keep a trailer for whenever I want to take it anywhereanywhere. I don't have to look in the mirror and know that I'm a SxS degen lol. Plus I wanted an actual manual transmission, which I have yet to see on a SxS.
The similarities between a modern performance SxS and a Jeep TJ end at 4 tires and 4WD. Modern performance SxS can carry freeway speeds through whoop sections and are the addition of safety equipment away from being off-road race ready. Entirely different applications and incomparable.
Then come out to the deserts where the big boys play and see what they’re actually capable of. The idea that SxS are just shitty, slow Jeeps is laughable and either trolling or ignorance on full display. A brand new Maverick R will do 100+ off-road with 2 feet of suspension travel and bypasses. You aren’t passing them like they’re sitting still on any bike regardless of your skill level.
You're right there, SxS owners always have a hefty BMI.
None of this is relevant considering that 99% of these things are bought by midwesterners to putt around on dirt roads and keep trails.
I will never be impressed by some overbuilt golf cart that still uses a rubber band for a "transmission" and has CV axles from a 30hp 4 wheeler.
SxS are and always will be toys for people who don't have fabrication talent to build a truck/buggy and don't have the physical fitness for bikes. Just 2 brain cells and a credit score.
Depends on the area. I see plated side by sides in NC. Not sure how it works but people do it. As far as AC goes, side by sides have that as an option now.
As a former motorcycle rider in NC, they laws are so weird for bikes. You don't HAVE to have turn signals, but if you do have them, they have to work. Like WTF?
Yeah it's hilarious that for decades Jeep made small and cheap trucks that could go anywhere, but all of them just got discontinued or ballooned. Now people buy massive trucks to haul around old-Jeep-sized vehicles that cost even more, and break constantly.
Which brings a new set of problems and challenges. With off-roading, you buy a Jeep or a 4x4 of some kind and learn your skills and progress as you build up your rig. Joining a club or a group and clean up trash etc.
With side by sides, you just show up and go. So many of them don't know trail etiquette, or care to learn and go with total abandon. It's totally changed the face of Moab for the worse. Even the side by side riders I meet in northern Minnesota on the same trails are usually combative and don't follow any kind of trail etiquette' at all. I'm sure there are a few that do, but they are the exception.
Sure, but absolutely a people problem. It’s difficult to get something as capable as a side by side in so many different terrains, and near impossible to finance something as capable with a warranty.
That’s the blessing and the curse. Except the curse is on the BLM and other entities that manage outdoor areas, as well as their users.
That said if I brought up the concept of an 1800 pound vehicle with 18 inches of travel on all four corners, a locking front differential and 140 horsepower for under 20k it would be regarded far differently until it was mentioned it was a side by side.
100 percent of the assholes you run into on your daily commute drive cars and trucks. I don’t think your typical rubber ducky rubicon guy is inherently gonna be a better person just because they venture off road in their jeep.
People come on here and just parrot shit lol. Any thread about trucks/SUVs/4x4s is full of the most braindead comments by people with absolutely 0 personal experience with the topic at hand.
I almost got hit by 4 head on while going up a narrow winding 2 track mountain backroad once. Dumbasses were doing 30+ around blind corners on a road cut into the side of a cliff.
And too long I think. I've seen trucks get stuck many times and had to go around them because they couldn't make a turn. I think width is a factor but generally smaller is better.
Too long imo, with the 4 door jeeps and pickups, for where we are. The stuff isn’t particularly tough but it’s all narrow switchbacks. We aren’t doing it for fun though, it’s for work.
No, they're too expensive to be used as intended. They're a ton of fun when someone else is paying for repairs and gives you the go ahead to get into trouble.
2024 Colorado Bison owner here- it's a great rock crawler and being able to do the the Golden Spike trifecta in Moab in one day without any major damage or having broken parts was a ton of fun. Sounds like the author hasn't ever hit some of the more serious trails we have out west, where things like dual lockers, full armor, and winch ready bumpers really come into play.
There was a review of the most recent 4Runner TRD Pro I watched (on Sarah N Tuned) that I think made a really good point. Basically the current TRD Pro is so capable that to push it to it's limits you would have to put it in situations where you'd have serious risk of damaging/wrecking it. But like... we're talking about something that costs $70k+. I'm not sure how much "fun" I'd be having if I was constantly worrying about wrecking my very expensive SUV.
But not everyone wants to push its limits. Some people buy competent offroad vehicles so they can go places and not worry about getting stuck. Not everyone is in it for extreme rock crawling.
I’d wager the same applies to many sports car once you leave the realm of BRZ/MX-5. Too much power and grip to really feel the edges of the car until you’re well into the Danger Zone™️
Even one of those on nice tyres can get into scary situations. I've driven both my cars fast enough that if I crashed, I'd have at the very least totalled them and might well have been seriously injured, and neither of them are sports cars.
Rivian covers both the TRD Pro and the sports car. Overpowered to the point of being risky both off-road and on-road, with 1025hp, 1198lb-ft of torque, and 2.5s 0 - 60 coming from its four motors (which enable better torque vectoring around curves than almost any sports car.)
It does not. Very heavy, worse approach and departure, poor articulation. Sure, it is fast but that’s not what makes a sports car alone. Lots of Rivians here in Colorado but I don’t see them on trails. I would not want to take that much weight on a decent trail.
Breakover angle is a couple inches higher on the R1T too, and it has more than 3" additional clearance vs the TRD Pro. Not to mention the R1T can ford 43.1" of water, far more than a stock TRD Pro.
> Very heavy, [...] poor articulation
It's extremely heavy, but has plenty of power to deal. I agree the articulation could be improved. It's also too wide to be fun on a lot of trails, but so is a TRD Pro.
> Sure, it is fast but that’s not what makes a sports car alone
I agree with that. What does it for me are the four independent motors on the Quad. It drives better on twisty roads than many small, light sports cars I've been in, since it can manage wheel speed better than a gas car or most EVs.
> Lots of Rivians here in Colorado but I don’t see them on trails
More of the Rivian owners I know actually off-road than the gas truck owners I know, I think because Rivian is narrowly marketed as an adventure-focused EV. I take my own R1S on trails all the time. And I can stay nice and warm overnight inside with Camp Mode w minimal battery drain, another benefit over gas vehicles for overlanding. I tow my travel trailer off-road too, then plug it into the Rivian's 120V to run a space heater.
Is the breakover/departure/approach measured at highest suspension setting on the rivian? If so, this means that the downward travel of the wheel is limited. This makes it more tippy, which is already inherent with an independent suspension setup. With independent front and rear that could be an issue.
Regarding weight, all that power is useless when there is little traction and getting something that heavy out of a situation with little to no traction is a TON of work. Outside of mud bogging, lots of power is not needed for off-roading. You need gearing to put the power down and you need traction at the ground.
Is the breakover/departure/approach measured at highest suspension setting on the rivian? If so, this means that the downward travel of the wheel is limited.
I believe so, and you're correct, the articulation suffers when at the highest setting. I tend to drive around off-road on the Standard setting of ~11" or High at 13". But it's also zero effort to just change between ride heights from the screen, so you can easily change heights to clear obstacles. (Being able to go down to ~8" clearance for on-road travel is nice too. Combined w the heavy batteries on the bottom, the vehicles are super stable.)
Outside of mud bogging, lots of power is not needed for off-roading. You need gearing to put the power down
You don't need extra gearing when you have all of your torque available from 0rpm. You can feather it and you get a huge amount of torque, it makes it easy to slowly crawl. (One-pedal driving is also SUPER nice for off-roading. Like the hill control modes you have on a TRD Pro, but permanently engaged.)
Both have pros abd cons and it comes down to use case
I agree a TRD Pro is also a great off-roader, and better than a Rivian in some tricky edge cases (e.g. only a single wheel has traction, then the quad motor Rivian is down to 25% of its power. Dual motor EV with locking diffs will fare better.) I like the EV lifestyle but agree it's not for everyone!
Weird. Went looking at stats and the 2025 4Runner lost a couple of degrees of departure angles compared to my 5th gen. Not a huge deal in practice, probably, but I already scrape the rear frequently.
I think you’re mistaken. There are plenty of new mid sized off road trucks and Jeeps that hit the trails. Plenty of people buy these things to use them.
I haven't seen it, and I work on plenty of ZR2/Trail Boss trucks. A lot of them are running around in "AUTO" 4x4 mode because the owners are ignorant and think it's going to save them if they start sliding in the rain.
I have seen it because I was one of them. I bought my ZR2 brand new and it was off road within the first week. I know Jeep and Tacoma owners that did the same thing.
Auto 4x4 in the rain was nice on the ZR2, a light back end with the stock tires made for a lot of tire spinning on wet roads.
I would consider "plenty" of people to be at least 25%, IME in eastern Oklahoma, it's maybe 5% tops. The majority of them are pavement princesses and the most off roading they will get is driving out to their deer stand a few times a year.
TBH, for the price of what you get, these really aren't that outrageously expensive. I've seen people spend stupid money to accomplish virtually the same thing with aftermarket parts.
Agreed. Even if you do all the work yourself, building a base Wrangler/Bronco out to be equivalent to a Rubicon X/Sasquatch won't be much, if any cheaper. Forget about it if you're getting a shop to do the work.
Upgraded axles, regear kits, locking differentials, deep low transfer cases, etc. aren't cheap.
Point is it's not car manufacturers fault for keeping their pricing consistent with inflation. It's stupid to cry about how you can't afford a car because they priced it appropriately and not about how you're making less money.
Yeah, would hate to have 405 hp/430 lb-ft torque from the Ranger Raptor with buttery smooth suspension and selectable drive modes. Terrible. No fun. Give me a Geo Metro instead so I can get stuck on a leaf.
Unless the tires are spear bald you will be disappointed, I had a Geo Metro and it was good up to 2' of snow (and I don't mean 2' "at the gauge" as reported by the local TV weatherman, I mean two feet on the road) with halfway-decent tires.
He's exaggerating, but my 4 cylinder has never disappointed me in the snow. It has 7.5 inches of ground clearance at the bumper and the only times it has been "stuck" in winter was when we got an actual two feet of snow that shuts the whole city down for a day or two.
I still think the metro would be good in snow with decent tires on paved roads. Really most cars are fine in the snow with an actual decent set of tires/winter tires on em.
A metro? You’re sure? I had one for a very brief stint and brother, I’ve never drive a car less capable of driving in the dry let alone in 2 feet of snow.
You're missing the point. There's not much of a challenge offroading in a truck that does everthing for you and shields you from the elements vs. a cj5 with pizza cutters and no roof
They are now heavier and larger. It makes them feel less agile compared to older and smaller off-roaders while limiting maneuverability on narrow trails.
I disagree with the entire premise, I think. I mean, What was an off-road truck 40, 30 or even 15 years ago? It was the regular one but with 4WD, the optional LSD as standard (probably), a badge and maybe one skid plate.
"Modern Off-Road Trucks" implies we have been doing these factory off-road trims to this degree as a normal thing for a long time, and now we've gone too far. Well, your Grandpa didn't have a Raptor to pick in the F-Series lineup. Your dad's Explorer 4X4's cool feature wasn't even today's terrain selection. It was just a push button transfer case. They also weren't dropping 2-3X the base price of the truck for the "off-road" trim level.
If you miss the old days, just check the 4X4 box and call it a day. If you want something where a drunk idiot would have to blindfold himself to get stuck, there's a trim level for that now, and it's also pretty fun.
"If the thrill of off-roading lies in the possibility of getting stuck..." That is not what motivates me (and a lot of people I know) to go off road here in Colorado. It is not the possibility of getting stuck, it is that we are able to get to places less crowded with great views and history.
It's like saying "If the thrill of racing/rallying lies in the possibility of crashing". Okay...demolition derbies aside...
A better comparison would be someone who's only interested in going racing if they're pushing themselves and their car to the limit, (and occasionally going over)
If you have an old Civic as a track car, you can do that. And if you overdo it going into a turn and slide off the track, it's not the end of the world. Compare that to a $200k Porsche with all the bells and whistles, you're not going to be going anywhere near as fast as the car is capable of, without a LOT of driver training.
And if you fuck up and go into a barrier at 150mph, it's not going to end well for the car OR for you.
This is real and a major reason to NOT put the widest tires you can on cars like miatas and 86s. One of my biggest regrets in my driving journey was not leaving skinnier tires on lower powered cars. You're not going to win any drag races anyway may as well keep the grip levels lower and learn to actually get to handle the limits without causing as much damage.
I enjoy the forces that my Camaro can generate even though I rarely push it near its limits.
I enjoy the ride on my KX450 even though I will never, ever ever get anywhere near the limit what can be done on that bike off road. That doesn’t mean that a Vespa is somehow more fun.
You can just enjoy the deep crossing, the rutted out trails, the steep climbs and descents, and whatever else without putting the vehicle in extremis.
I think of most of this subreddit experienced glamis in an LS sand car they’d be scared out of their minds while that machine would have way more left in it.
We bench race so much here we lost the thrill of the ride. Insane.
Plus if you want to get stuck I'm sure you can configure it to give you that experience. Drop it in 4x2 and disable axle locks, maybe overinflate your tires a bit. Nobody's making you use all the offroad features all the time
This is basically my reason for "offroading" as well. I put it in quotes because in Washington we have to go out of our way to truly off-road. 99% of forest service roads are doable in a stock Subaru. But because we have over 13 million acres of national forest, you can get far from folks.
I’m on the other side of the country but I’ve been gradually acclimating my wife and her phobia of unpaved surfaces to forest roads. We’ve got a number of national forests around us in every direction and we can be on gravel in about 15 minutes. We’re never that far from civilization as the crow flies but we can spend hours back there and never see another person or vehicle - it’s fantastic.
Capability is what makes off-roading fun. The fun of offroading comes from NOT getting stuck in a situation that a lesser vehicle would, which is what I think the author doesn't understand. If having a capable vehicle spoiled the fun, why would the entire off-road modification scene center around increasing capability?
I enjoy being off road because I enjoy being outside, away from everything, and the driving. Not everything has to be a mud bog or ambling over some boulders.
Yeah exactly I mean its for all purposes getting all muddy and dirty but at the same time feeling good going around in the city or a trip with the family
My exact take. I off-road because I want to get somewhere cool where there won't be a bunch of people. It's a means to an end and I want it to be as easy as possible.
Well, I’m keeping my fun-to-drive, mud-terrain-tired Wrangler JK Unlimited exactly for this purpose! BTW, it’s a real pity we don’t get Suzuki Jimnys in the U.S. and honestly, that’s a shame. Suzuki, now independent, though they used to have ties with GM back in the day, remember the Tracker? ...could do with the Jimny exactly what Honda did with the Cub motorcycles: People would buy them just for off-road trips as a third car, not even a second one. Think about it, you get a proper ladder frame, two solid axles, AWD, and very decent off-road capability thanks to its <1 metric ton weight, all for the equivalent of about $11K MSRP. Yes, brand-new! Even with today’s crazy tariffs and import taxes, that juice might still be worth the squeeze. IMHO, of course!
I guess if I want to go offroading for the sake of driving over challenging terrain, then its quite close to the whole on road racing thing of slow car fast is more fun that fast car slow.
I'd much rather deal with the limitations of a simple older offroader than have a modern system with clever systems come to its end and then I'm SOL cause my skills are overshadowed by the capabilities of the vehicle
No they’re to expensive to be good off road. I had a 2019 Canyon that I bought for 26,500 that I intended to take off road but when you get out there the only thing you can think is “if I damage this it is going to be ungodly expensive to fix” it really lowers your tolerance for risk when you are in the woods and really limits what you’re willing to do in your vehicle.
Some rich bastards will absolutely take there rigs off road or maybe some people have warped risk reward paradigms. But most folks who get these things its there most expensive vehicle and it just seems silly to risk a big bill to fix your car.
They're still fun even if they've gotten to the point of practically jumping the shark in terms of offroad abilities. But who cares? Take 'em outside and have fun. 🤷
I mean modern off-road trucks are also excellent in certain cities.
Potholes/speed bumps (fox shocks AMAZING), winter driving (2'+ of snow), etc. is fantastic in my Tacoma TRD pro.
Also that little camera in the front (for watching for rocks) is actually amazing for lining up your truck perfectly when parking, seeing the stop line on declines, and parking in tight spaces.
Sounds silly but it's true. Of course it was bought to be a practical all year truck that can handle adventure trails reliably...but turns out all that offroading equipment actually makes living in the city way more tolerable
Same with my '24 Pro-4X that I put aftermarket extended travel Fox shocks on. Fucker just floats over everything, especially with 33" 80 profile tires on.
As an owner of a FJ and a Raptor, I do think the Raptor removes all the challenges possible in sand dunes, so it’s great when I’m taking first timers or guests out. No worries, everything will go smoothly.
However, I do get bored sometimes, which is when an underpowered FJ comes in clutch.
On a side note, having an underpowered, stock FJ car definitely made me a better driver off road, because I have to think much more. I’d be a much worse and over confided driver if I learnt to drive on the Raptor.
This, and with so many electronic gadgets that can brick them in the middle of no where. Simplicity reigns when you're deep and need to manage a trail repair to get out.
Exactly why my vw rail is so good for that. 3 tools and a few sockets can take the whole vehicle down. I don’t need limp mode from a ride height sensor. I need it to run flawlessly with a broken shock.
Big difference between a Raptor/TRX that can catch actual air vs. AT4X/TRD Pro types. And the former are too wide for most forest trails and break easily if you send it over a jump. They are really fun in Baja type desert blasting.
Most people would likely enjoy a SxS more than a TRD Pro on a narrow trail.
"I guess the reason to buy a truck like this is because your goal is to never actually get stuck." Pretty much sums it up.
I was off-roading yesterday on a beach like in the article but it sounds like a tougher beach environment with many less-traveled side trails that would be a pain in the ass to get a recovery vehicle into. On these beaches 4WD is required (apparently unlike the article), you need a permit to ride on the sand, and everybody airs down to 15 psi (which the author didn't need to do). We even crossed small stretches of water as the tide rose which was cutting into the narrow strip of beach we were on. Not gonna lie I was a lil' clenched doing the water crossings in part because it was a dead end and our only way back.
So I get the author's "no risk, no fun" take, and if you're off-roading where recovery is logistically easy by all means push it and get stuck, but you buy trucks and Jeeps with all the locking diffs and shit to get back home.
Well, I’m keeping my fun-to-drive, mud-terrain-tired Wrangler JK Unlimited exactly for this purpose! BTW, it’s a real pity we don’t get Suzuki Jimnys in the U.S. and honestly, that’s a shame. Suzuki, now independent, though they used to have ties with GM back in the day, remember the Tracker? ...could do with the Jimny exactly what Honda did with the Cub motorcycles: People would buy them just for off-road trips as a third car, not even a second one. Think about it, you get a proper ladder frame, two solid axles, AWD, and very decent off-road capability thanks to its <1 metric ton weight, all for the equivalent of about $11K MSRP. Yes, brand-new! Even with today’s crazy tariffs and import taxes, that juice might still be worth the squeeze. IMHO, of course!
Illustrious_Cap6472@reddit
I get what the article is saying, and the younger me would have agreed 100%. The struggle was the whole point.
But now? When I'm 50 miles from the nearest paved road with my family in the truck, I'm not looking for a "fun" challenge. I'm looking for the 'get me home safely' button. The new tech isn't about making it easy, it's about making it reliable. The fun for me these days is in the peace of mind.
V48runner@reddit
They're not too good, they're too wide. This trail has an even narrower section that I barely cleared in my first gen Tacoma.
https://i.imgur.com/dSL2acS.jpeg
That Canyon would have never cleared this section of trail, not without a lot of body damage.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Hence the popularity of side-by-sides these days.
spongebob_meth@reddit
It's funny to me that a side by side is the same size as a jeep TJ. But they are 4x the price, not street legal, have no air conditioning, and are less reliable
Deadlight44@reddit
Yup, that's why I bought a geo tracker lol. Happy wheeling all!
HeavyCanuck@reddit
This is the exact "justification" I used when getting my TJ. It's my ATV that I can commute in, I don't need to buy and keep a trailer for whenever I want to take it anywhereanywhere. I don't have to look in the mirror and know that I'm a SxS degen lol. Plus I wanted an actual manual transmission, which I have yet to see on a SxS.
I don't have air conditioning though :(
goaelephant@reddit
Lmfao xD
Seamus-Archer@reddit
The similarities between a modern performance SxS and a Jeep TJ end at 4 tires and 4WD. Modern performance SxS can carry freeway speeds through whoop sections and are the addition of safety equipment away from being off-road race ready. Entirely different applications and incomparable.
spongebob_meth@reddit
Yet they are always going walking pace through mild jeep roads
Seamus-Archer@reddit
Bring a TJ out the deserts of the west and try to keep up then.
spongebob_meth@reddit
I mean, I don't have to. Im always passing these stupid things on my dirt bike like they're sitting still.
Seamus-Archer@reddit
Then come out to the deserts where the big boys play and see what they’re actually capable of. The idea that SxS are just shitty, slow Jeeps is laughable and either trolling or ignorance on full display. A brand new Maverick R will do 100+ off-road with 2 feet of suspension travel and bypasses. You aren’t passing them like they’re sitting still on any bike regardless of your skill level.
spongebob_meth@reddit
You're right there, SxS owners always have a hefty BMI.
None of this is relevant considering that 99% of these things are bought by midwesterners to putt around on dirt roads and keep trails.
I will never be impressed by some overbuilt golf cart that still uses a rubber band for a "transmission" and has CV axles from a 30hp 4 wheeler.
SxS are and always will be toys for people who don't have fabrication talent to build a truck/buggy and don't have the physical fitness for bikes. Just 2 brain cells and a credit score.
AaminMarritza@reddit
Yeah it’s a bit like comparing an Ariel Atom to a Miata.
Different things entirely.
Bumpi_Boi@reddit
Depends on the area. I see plated side by sides in NC. Not sure how it works but people do it. As far as AC goes, side by sides have that as an option now.
Godzilla2y@reddit
Some states have pretty lax rules for getting plates. Iirc motorcycles don't require a speedometer in NC and can still get plated
Ham_Damnit@reddit
As a former motorcycle rider in NC, they laws are so weird for bikes. You don't HAVE to have turn signals, but if you do have them, they have to work. Like WTF?
Bortjort@reddit
Some places all you need is a make model and VIN
blahyawnblah@reddit
UTVs are dumb and attract a specific type of person
N0Name117@reddit
I don't know many ranchers without a UTV these days. They're absolutely fantastic for what they need them for.
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
There's a big difference between your Kawasaki Mule that a rancher owns and a Polaris RZR that your stereotypical dbag owns...
N0Name117@reddit
Less so than you might think. And yes, I have seen ranchers run around on RZR and similar buggys.
electromage@reddit
They're talking about this kind.
Drzhivago138@reddit
There's nothing in their comment that indicates they were speaking about any specific type of UTV.
electromage@reddit
The context does, we're talking about off-roading, not hauling things around a farm.
electromage@reddit
Yeah it's hilarious that for decades Jeep made small and cheap trucks that could go anywhere, but all of them just got discontinued or ballooned. Now people buy massive trucks to haul around old-Jeep-sized vehicles that cost even more, and break constantly.
V48runner@reddit
Which brings a new set of problems and challenges. With off-roading, you buy a Jeep or a 4x4 of some kind and learn your skills and progress as you build up your rig. Joining a club or a group and clean up trash etc.
With side by sides, you just show up and go. So many of them don't know trail etiquette, or care to learn and go with total abandon. It's totally changed the face of Moab for the worse. Even the side by side riders I meet in northern Minnesota on the same trails are usually combative and don't follow any kind of trail etiquette' at all. I'm sure there are a few that do, but they are the exception.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Sure, but absolutely a people problem. It’s difficult to get something as capable as a side by side in so many different terrains, and near impossible to finance something as capable with a warranty.
That’s the blessing and the curse. Except the curse is on the BLM and other entities that manage outdoor areas, as well as their users.
That said if I brought up the concept of an 1800 pound vehicle with 18 inches of travel on all four corners, a locking front differential and 140 horsepower for under 20k it would be regarded far differently until it was mentioned it was a side by side.
100 percent of the assholes you run into on your daily commute drive cars and trucks. I don’t think your typical rubber ducky rubicon guy is inherently gonna be a better person just because they venture off road in their jeep.
V48runner@reddit
They never do.
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
The demographic that owns side by sides and gigantic wake boats is a perfect circle
footpole@reddit
I think you meant venn diagram?
JALbert@reddit
No, Maynard James Keenan really loves wake boats.
nondescriptzombie@reddit
Fuck that. If I'm going to spend $20k on an offroad something it's not going to have a drive belt and a unibody.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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Seamus-Archer@reddit
Please tell me what specifically I said that qualifies as any of those things.
spongebob_meth@reddit
Wtf is with reddits hate boner for unibodies? The fact that a SxS is unibody is not even close to being on the objective list of reasons they suck.
HeavyCanuck@reddit
People come on here and just parrot shit lol. Any thread about trucks/SUVs/4x4s is full of the most braindead comments by people with absolutely 0 personal experience with the topic at hand.
spongebob_meth@reddit
I have plenty of experience trying to avoid braindead / drunk SxS owners on the trail.
They are a blight on offroading.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Tubular chassis = unibody
I don’t know why I click on these off road topics in this subreddit. I guess it’s basically my trashy tv.
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
Not to mention one of the greatest offroad vehicles ever made is unibody: the Cherokee XJ
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
This can’t be emphasized enough tbh
Even if there was any merit to that complaint it’s still bullshit.
nondescriptzombie@reddit
This sure looks like a tubular chassis /s
Drzhivago138@reddit
That's a 2WD Gator used for golf courses. It doesn't even have a rollbar.
RuinedGrave@reddit
How about you look up the SxSs people ACTUALLY go have fun with? Polaris RZR, Canam Maverick, Honda Talon, etc.
drossen@reddit
No shot you pulled up a gator 2x4 as an example of a sxs for offroading lmao
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
This kind of thing is basically terminal. You can’t fix this.
Drzhivago138@reddit
What's wrong with a drive belt, fundamentally?
Bonerchill@reddit
California does it right and bans those wherever it can. Drunken hillbilly buggies can get bent.
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
Lucky...
I almost got hit by 4 head on while going up a narrow winding 2 track mountain backroad once. Dumbasses were doing 30+ around blind corners on a road cut into the side of a cliff.
Bonerchill@reddit
I’d feel for the good owners who get lumped in with the bad ones but I’ve never met one.
electromage@reddit
And too long I think. I've seen trucks get stuck many times and had to go around them because they couldn't make a turn. I think width is a factor but generally smaller is better.
masterventris@reddit
Is this peak off road performance? https://www.instagram.com/the_little_rig
PurpEL@reddit
That's why I want a Jomny
yokramer@reddit
Trail pinstripes are just another badge of honor for actually getting out there.
orangutanDOTorg@reddit
Too long imo, with the 4 door jeeps and pickups, for where we are. The stuff isn’t particularly tough but it’s all narrow switchbacks. We aren’t doing it for fun though, it’s for work.
Ok_Blueberry_1068@reddit
No, they're too expensive to be used as intended. They're a ton of fun when someone else is paying for repairs and gives you the go ahead to get into trouble.
JustaguyTTV@reddit
even if they are (which really they aren't) it's not like there was never a decent off road before the modern era
EJpresrvationsociety@reddit
2024 Colorado Bison owner here- it's a great rock crawler and being able to do the the Golden Spike trifecta in Moab in one day without any major damage or having broken parts was a ton of fun. Sounds like the author hasn't ever hit some of the more serious trails we have out west, where things like dual lockers, full armor, and winch ready bumpers really come into play.
umm_like_totes@reddit
There was a review of the most recent 4Runner TRD Pro I watched (on Sarah N Tuned) that I think made a really good point. Basically the current TRD Pro is so capable that to push it to it's limits you would have to put it in situations where you'd have serious risk of damaging/wrecking it. But like... we're talking about something that costs $70k+. I'm not sure how much "fun" I'd be having if I was constantly worrying about wrecking my very expensive SUV.
Mjolnir12@reddit
But not everyone wants to push its limits. Some people buy competent offroad vehicles so they can go places and not worry about getting stuck. Not everyone is in it for extreme rock crawling.
plug_in_atheist72@reddit
I’d wager the same applies to many sports car once you leave the realm of BRZ/MX-5. Too much power and grip to really feel the edges of the car until you’re well into the Danger Zone™️
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Even one of those on nice tyres can get into scary situations. I've driven both my cars fast enough that if I crashed, I'd have at the very least totalled them and might well have been seriously injured, and neither of them are sports cars.
Sharp_Balance2854@reddit
Rivian covers both the TRD Pro and the sports car. Overpowered to the point of being risky both off-road and on-road, with 1025hp, 1198lb-ft of torque, and 2.5s 0 - 60 coming from its four motors (which enable better torque vectoring around curves than almost any sports car.)
ahtoxa1183@reddit
It does not. Very heavy, worse approach and departure, poor articulation. Sure, it is fast but that’s not what makes a sports car alone. Lots of Rivians here in Colorado but I don’t see them on trails. I would not want to take that much weight on a decent trail.
Sharp_Balance2854@reddit
> worse approach and departure
2025 TRD Pro: 36.4° approach, 24.7° departure
2026 Rivian R1T: 35.5° approach, 29.9° departure
Breakover angle is a couple inches higher on the R1T too, and it has more than 3" additional clearance vs the TRD Pro. Not to mention the R1T can ford 43.1" of water, far more than a stock TRD Pro.
> Very heavy, [...] poor articulation
It's extremely heavy, but has plenty of power to deal. I agree the articulation could be improved. It's also too wide to be fun on a lot of trails, but so is a TRD Pro.
> Sure, it is fast but that’s not what makes a sports car alone
I agree with that. What does it for me are the four independent motors on the Quad. It drives better on twisty roads than many small, light sports cars I've been in, since it can manage wheel speed better than a gas car or most EVs.
> Lots of Rivians here in Colorado but I don’t see them on trails
More of the Rivian owners I know actually off-road than the gas truck owners I know, I think because Rivian is narrowly marketed as an adventure-focused EV. I take my own R1S on trails all the time. And I can stay nice and warm overnight inside with Camp Mode w minimal battery drain, another benefit over gas vehicles for overlanding. I tow my travel trailer off-road too, then plug it into the Rivian's 120V to run a space heater.
ahtoxa1183@reddit
Is the breakover/departure/approach measured at highest suspension setting on the rivian? If so, this means that the downward travel of the wheel is limited. This makes it more tippy, which is already inherent with an independent suspension setup. With independent front and rear that could be an issue.
Regarding weight, all that power is useless when there is little traction and getting something that heavy out of a situation with little to no traction is a TON of work. Outside of mud bogging, lots of power is not needed for off-roading. You need gearing to put the power down and you need traction at the ground.
Sharp_Balance2854@reddit
I believe so, and you're correct, the articulation suffers when at the highest setting. I tend to drive around off-road on the Standard setting of ~11" or High at 13". But it's also zero effort to just change between ride heights from the screen, so you can easily change heights to clear obstacles. (Being able to go down to ~8" clearance for on-road travel is nice too. Combined w the heavy batteries on the bottom, the vehicles are super stable.)
You don't need extra gearing when you have all of your torque available from 0rpm. You can feather it and you get a huge amount of torque, it makes it easy to slowly crawl. (One-pedal driving is also SUPER nice for off-roading. Like the hill control modes you have on a TRD Pro, but permanently engaged.)
I agree a TRD Pro is also a great off-roader, and better than a Rivian in some tricky edge cases (e.g. only a single wheel has traction, then the quad motor Rivian is down to 25% of its power. Dual motor EV with locking diffs will fare better.) I like the EV lifestyle but agree it's not for everyone!
ahtoxa1183@reddit
Weird. Went looking at stats and the 2025 4Runner lost a couple of degrees of departure angles compared to my 5th gen. Not a huge deal in practice, probably, but I already scrape the rear frequently.
plug_in_atheist72@reddit
I’ve always felt Rivian’s target demo was people who might otherwise buy a Range Rover or Lexus GX/LX, but want an EV.
russlar@reddit
Too good? no, they're too expensive!
oshaCaller@reddit
Not too many people want to beat there $50k+ truck up on some trails.
They'd rather put a cheap lift kit, some shitty wheels and a bunch of lights and complain about tire wear and squeaks and rattles.
Titan0917@reddit
I think you’re mistaken. There are plenty of new mid sized off road trucks and Jeeps that hit the trails. Plenty of people buy these things to use them.
oshaCaller@reddit
I haven't seen it, and I work on plenty of ZR2/Trail Boss trucks. A lot of them are running around in "AUTO" 4x4 mode because the owners are ignorant and think it's going to save them if they start sliding in the rain.
Titan0917@reddit
I have seen it because I was one of them. I bought my ZR2 brand new and it was off road within the first week. I know Jeep and Tacoma owners that did the same thing.
Auto 4x4 in the rain was nice on the ZR2, a light back end with the stock tires made for a lot of tire spinning on wet roads.
oshaCaller@reddit
I would consider "plenty" of people to be at least 25%, IME in eastern Oklahoma, it's maybe 5% tops. The majority of them are pavement princesses and the most off roading they will get is driving out to their deer stand a few times a year.
Demorative@reddit
I had a guy come in a Ford Raptor complaining of loud tire noise.
I could hear it as he drove in <5mph in front of my shop. Tires look brand new, but were those stupid oversized knobbies meant for offroading.
Was like, bruh....
N0Name117@reddit
TBH, for the price of what you get, these really aren't that outrageously expensive. I've seen people spend stupid money to accomplish virtually the same thing with aftermarket parts.
HeavyCanuck@reddit
Agreed. Even if you do all the work yourself, building a base Wrangler/Bronco out to be equivalent to a Rubicon X/Sasquatch won't be much, if any cheaper. Forget about it if you're getting a shop to do the work.
Upgraded axles, regear kits, locking differentials, deep low transfer cases, etc. aren't cheap.
m0viestar@reddit
Car prices have remained level with inflation. Your wages haven't.
Bonerchill@reddit
You ever wondered what Elon a la mode tastes like?
m0viestar@reddit
The fuck are you talking about?
Bonerchill@reddit
We should consume the wealthy.
RuinedGrave@reddit
Yeah, and the price compared to income is what makes them expensive. You didn’t change the issue.
m0viestar@reddit
Point is it's not car manufacturers fault for keeping their pricing consistent with inflation. It's stupid to cry about how you can't afford a car because they priced it appropriately and not about how you're making less money.
ScheduleDry6598@reddit
They are turning out to be just like Jeeps and Broncos... The new 'minivan'..
meuria132@reddit
looks.. good?
Shmokesshweed@reddit
Yeah, would hate to have 405 hp/430 lb-ft torque from the Ranger Raptor with buttery smooth suspension and selectable drive modes. Terrible. No fun. Give me a Geo Metro instead so I can get stuck on a leaf.
nlpnt@reddit
Unless the tires are spear bald you will be disappointed, I had a Geo Metro and it was good up to 2' of snow (and I don't mean 2' "at the gauge" as reported by the local TV weatherman, I mean two feet on the road) with halfway-decent tires.
Bumpi_Boi@reddit
Are you confusing the Metro for the Tracker? Geo Trackers are great 4x4s. The metro is a 3cylinder super economy car.
PBandC_NIG@reddit
He's exaggerating, but my 4 cylinder has never disappointed me in the snow. It has 7.5 inches of ground clearance at the bumper and the only times it has been "stuck" in winter was when we got an actual two feet of snow that shuts the whole city down for a day or two.
Virtual_Industry8553@reddit
He must be. I no world is a damn Metro making it through 2 feet of snow. 2 inches maybe.
SpaceghostLos@reddit
Dont play. Two inches is still too tall. You’ll just spin your tires to oblivion.
BringBackDanFouts@reddit
Lol, 2 ft of snow would be up to the door handles on a metro.
Notwhoyouknown@reddit
I still think the metro would be good in snow with decent tires on paved roads. Really most cars are fine in the snow with an actual decent set of tires/winter tires on em.
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
A metro? You’re sure? I had one for a very brief stint and brother, I’ve never drive a car less capable of driving in the dry let alone in 2 feet of snow.
Dayzlikethis@reddit
lol, ok.
Shmokesshweed@reddit
Fair enough. I've seen people do some crazy shit in them.
inaccurateTempedesc@reddit
You're missing the point. There's not much of a challenge offroading in a truck that does everthing for you and shields you from the elements vs. a cj5 with pizza cutters and no roof
One-Ad-6715@reddit
かっこE
Fabulous-Celery4141@reddit
They are now heavier and larger. It makes them feel less agile compared to older and smaller off-roaders while limiting maneuverability on narrow trails.
PiggypPiggyyYaya@reddit
It's more like too expensive to repair to have fun in.
costafilh0@reddit
If you have fun going places and enjoying nature? No.
If you have fun going trough a though time and overcoming hard trails with your own skills and a limited tool for the job? Yes.
thefanciestcat@reddit
I disagree with the entire premise, I think. I mean, What was an off-road truck 40, 30 or even 15 years ago? It was the regular one but with 4WD, the optional LSD as standard (probably), a badge and maybe one skid plate.
"Modern Off-Road Trucks" implies we have been doing these factory off-road trims to this degree as a normal thing for a long time, and now we've gone too far. Well, your Grandpa didn't have a Raptor to pick in the F-Series lineup. Your dad's Explorer 4X4's cool feature wasn't even today's terrain selection. It was just a push button transfer case. They also weren't dropping 2-3X the base price of the truck for the "off-road" trim level.
If you miss the old days, just check the 4X4 box and call it a day. If you want something where a drunk idiot would have to blindfold himself to get stuck, there's a trim level for that now, and it's also pretty fun.
LordoftheIdiots_303@reddit
"If the thrill of off-roading lies in the possibility of getting stuck..." That is not what motivates me (and a lot of people I know) to go off road here in Colorado. It is not the possibility of getting stuck, it is that we are able to get to places less crowded with great views and history.
It's like saying "If the thrill of racing/rallying lies in the possibility of crashing". Okay...demolition derbies aside...
Yakb0@reddit
A better comparison would be someone who's only interested in going racing if they're pushing themselves and their car to the limit, (and occasionally going over)
If you have an old Civic as a track car, you can do that. And if you overdo it going into a turn and slide off the track, it's not the end of the world. Compare that to a $200k Porsche with all the bells and whistles, you're not going to be going anywhere near as fast as the car is capable of, without a LOT of driver training.
And if you fuck up and go into a barrier at 150mph, it's not going to end well for the car OR for you.
Exploreditor@reddit
as pops always said, its more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.
Bortjort@reddit
This is real and a major reason to NOT put the widest tires you can on cars like miatas and 86s. One of my biggest regrets in my driving journey was not leaving skinnier tires on lower powered cars. You're not going to win any drag races anyway may as well keep the grip levels lower and learn to actually get to handle the limits without causing as much damage.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
I enjoy the forces that my Camaro can generate even though I rarely push it near its limits.
I enjoy the ride on my KX450 even though I will never, ever ever get anywhere near the limit what can be done on that bike off road. That doesn’t mean that a Vespa is somehow more fun.
You can just enjoy the deep crossing, the rutted out trails, the steep climbs and descents, and whatever else without putting the vehicle in extremis.
I think of most of this subreddit experienced glamis in an LS sand car they’d be scared out of their minds while that machine would have way more left in it.
We bench race so much here we lost the thrill of the ride. Insane.
manystripes@reddit
Plus if you want to get stuck I'm sure you can configure it to give you that experience. Drop it in 4x2 and disable axle locks, maybe overinflate your tires a bit. Nobody's making you use all the offroad features all the time
Shmokesshweed@reddit
This is basically my reason for "offroading" as well. I put it in quotes because in Washington we have to go out of our way to truly off-road. 99% of forest service roads are doable in a stock Subaru. But because we have over 13 million acres of national forest, you can get far from folks.
curvebombr@reddit
There are challanging OHVs all over WA, Elba, Tahuya, Naches, Walker Valley, etc.
Shmokesshweed@reddit
Definitely. But regular forest service roads are much closer to most people.
r_golan_trevize@reddit
I’m on the other side of the country but I’ve been gradually acclimating my wife and her phobia of unpaved surfaces to forest roads. We’ve got a number of national forests around us in every direction and we can be on gravel in about 15 minutes. We’re never that far from civilization as the crow flies but we can spend hours back there and never see another person or vehicle - it’s fantastic.
SavagRavioli@reddit
The places I go, getting stuck can be life threatening.
What a stupid article.
Caqtus95@reddit
Capability is what makes off-roading fun. The fun of offroading comes from NOT getting stuck in a situation that a lesser vehicle would, which is what I think the author doesn't understand. If having a capable vehicle spoiled the fun, why would the entire off-road modification scene center around increasing capability?
su1ac0@reddit
Hundreds of miles of all types of trails around me. The guys in lifted 4runners and wranglers are having fun.
But the guys in Raptors and TRXs are having a lot more.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
It’s a take I guess.
I enjoy being off road because I enjoy being outside, away from everything, and the driving. Not everything has to be a mud bog or ambling over some boulders.
Different strokes.
ConfessToMeDaddy@reddit
Yeah exactly I mean its for all purposes getting all muddy and dirty but at the same time feeling good going around in the city or a trip with the family
Peter_Panarchy@reddit
My exact take. I off-road because I want to get somewhere cool where there won't be a bunch of people. It's a means to an end and I want it to be as easy as possible.
tobyhatesmemes2@reddit
Which is essentially what the author said in the article
RuinedGrave@reddit
Not really. He said he would’ve liked to risk getting stuck.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Generous interpretation but sure.
NISMO1968@reddit (OP)
Well, I’m keeping my fun-to-drive, mud-terrain-tired Wrangler JK Unlimited exactly for this purpose! BTW, it’s a real pity we don’t get Suzuki Jimnys in the U.S. and honestly, that’s a shame. Suzuki, now independent, though they used to have ties with GM back in the day, remember the Tracker? ...could do with the Jimny exactly what Honda did with the Cub motorcycles: People would buy them just for off-road trips as a third car, not even a second one. Think about it, you get a proper ladder frame, two solid axles, AWD, and very decent off-road capability thanks to its <1 metric ton weight, all for the equivalent of about $11K MSRP. Yes, brand-new! Even with today’s crazy tariffs and import taxes, that juice might still be worth the squeeze. IMHO, of course!
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Suzuki is now with Toyota partnership now, so you need to ask Toyota for Jimny.
NISMO1968@reddit (OP)
Wikipedia says it’s 5%. GM once had 20%, quoting the same source.
sioux612@reddit
I guess if I want to go offroading for the sake of driving over challenging terrain, then its quite close to the whole on road racing thing of slow car fast is more fun that fast car slow.
I'd much rather deal with the limitations of a simple older offroader than have a modern system with clever systems come to its end and then I'm SOL cause my skills are overshadowed by the capabilities of the vehicle
Back-doorSanta@reddit
No they’re to expensive to be good off road. I had a 2019 Canyon that I bought for 26,500 that I intended to take off road but when you get out there the only thing you can think is “if I damage this it is going to be ungodly expensive to fix” it really lowers your tolerance for risk when you are in the woods and really limits what you’re willing to do in your vehicle.
Some rich bastards will absolutely take there rigs off road or maybe some people have warped risk reward paradigms. But most folks who get these things its there most expensive vehicle and it just seems silly to risk a big bill to fix your car.
JoshTheTrucker@reddit
I just like them.
They're still fun even if they've gotten to the point of practically jumping the shark in terms of offroad abilities. But who cares? Take 'em outside and have fun. 🤷
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
If the author hasn't gotten stuck with two lockers and a winch, they're just not trying.
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
Getting stuck is fun. Getting stuck when locked in the front and back is even fun-er.
carbon_ape@reddit
I mean modern off-road trucks are also excellent in certain cities.
Potholes/speed bumps (fox shocks AMAZING), winter driving (2'+ of snow), etc. is fantastic in my Tacoma TRD pro.
Also that little camera in the front (for watching for rocks) is actually amazing for lining up your truck perfectly when parking, seeing the stop line on declines, and parking in tight spaces.
Sounds silly but it's true. Of course it was bought to be a practical all year truck that can handle adventure trails reliably...but turns out all that offroading equipment actually makes living in the city way more tolerable
RuinedGrave@reddit
My ZR2 is an incredibly smooth ride that doesn’t care about potholes, speed bumps, and even dips and bumps in the road.
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
Same with my '24 Pro-4X that I put aftermarket extended travel Fox shocks on. Fucker just floats over everything, especially with 33" 80 profile tires on.
Bonerchill@reddit
One of my favorite tricks with my old ZR2 was going full speed into and out of old creek crossings on back roads.
Fall in, jump out, brought to you by the letters ZR and the number 2.
Old-Sprinkles760@reddit
Off roading for me is about getting outside and escaping it all, plus the driving itself. Doesn't always have to be rock crawling or mud pits.
Other_Milk@reddit
As an owner of a FJ and a Raptor, I do think the Raptor removes all the challenges possible in sand dunes, so it’s great when I’m taking first timers or guests out. No worries, everything will go smoothly.
However, I do get bored sometimes, which is when an underpowered FJ comes in clutch.
On a side note, having an underpowered, stock FJ car definitely made me a better driver off road, because I have to think much more. I’d be a much worse and over confided driver if I learnt to drive on the Raptor.
fatitalianstallion@reddit
My complaint is that Off-road trucks are too fragile to do any serious off-roading
curvebombr@reddit
This, and with so many electronic gadgets that can brick them in the middle of no where. Simplicity reigns when you're deep and need to manage a trail repair to get out.
fatitalianstallion@reddit
Exactly why my vw rail is so good for that. 3 tools and a few sockets can take the whole vehicle down. I don’t need limp mode from a ride height sensor. I need it to run flawlessly with a broken shock.
realjones888@reddit
Big difference between a Raptor/TRX that can catch actual air vs. AT4X/TRD Pro types. And the former are too wide for most forest trails and break easily if you send it over a jump. They are really fun in Baja type desert blasting.
Most people would likely enjoy a SxS more than a TRD Pro on a narrow trail.
Muttonboat@reddit
Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no." I
krombopulousnathan@reddit
Spot on correct. I have modern off-roaders. They are great fun still!
Fun_Driver_5566@reddit
I think they’re too good to be fun if you enjoy wheeling but better than ever if you just want to get to a remote hiking trailhead or something
If you want to push your trucks limits in say, a modern triple locked Bronco raptor you have to go pretty extreme.
Meanwhile you could probably have just as much of a challenge much safer taking a Subaru down a rough forest road.
_galaga_@reddit
"I guess the reason to buy a truck like this is because your goal is to never actually get stuck." Pretty much sums it up.
I was off-roading yesterday on a beach like in the article but it sounds like a tougher beach environment with many less-traveled side trails that would be a pain in the ass to get a recovery vehicle into. On these beaches 4WD is required (apparently unlike the article), you need a permit to ride on the sand, and everybody airs down to 15 psi (which the author didn't need to do). We even crossed small stretches of water as the tide rose which was cutting into the narrow strip of beach we were on. Not gonna lie I was a lil' clenched doing the water crossings in part because it was a dead end and our only way back.
So I get the author's "no risk, no fun" take, and if you're off-roading where recovery is logistically easy by all means push it and get stuck, but you buy trucks and Jeeps with all the locking diffs and shit to get back home.
NISMO1968@reddit (OP)
Well, I’m keeping my fun-to-drive, mud-terrain-tired Wrangler JK Unlimited exactly for this purpose! BTW, it’s a real pity we don’t get Suzuki Jimnys in the U.S. and honestly, that’s a shame. Suzuki, now independent, though they used to have ties with GM back in the day, remember the Tracker? ...could do with the Jimny exactly what Honda did with the Cub motorcycles: People would buy them just for off-road trips as a third car, not even a second one. Think about it, you get a proper ladder frame, two solid axles, AWD, and very decent off-road capability thanks to its <1 metric ton weight, all for the equivalent of about $11K MSRP. Yes, brand-new! Even with today’s crazy tariffs and import taxes, that juice might still be worth the squeeze. IMHO, of course!