Relying on Government for Rescue - Not a good plan
Posted by SunLillyFairy@reddit | preppers | View on Reddit | 102 comments
For those in the US - Do NOT rely on government resources to keep you safe, give you shelter, or provide food/water/rescue/medical care after a major disaster. I worked 20 years in local government, and part of my job was disaster response. Over the course of my career I opened and oversaw the operations of several shelters. I was dedicated to my work, and so were my colleagues. I can honestly tell you we did a fantastic job helping folks and met the needs of residents, WHEN we were responding to a disaster that was contained and fairly small (affecting less than 100-300). I can also tell you we were very limited, and when the numbers needing help exceeded what the local government had prepared for, we were unable to provide appropriate, healthy and safe sheltering. I can tell you that I told my family that if they ever needed to evacuate while I was assigned away, not to come to my shelter, or any other government shelter. They knew our plan A, B, & C, and none of them included government. Most of my career was in two counties, populations of approximately 200,000 & 750,000. And literally, once the sheltering need exceeded 100/300, the systems were strained and inadequate.
To keep this post to a reasonable length I'm not going to list out all the many things that can and do
go wrong. Do know that the bigger the disaster the more inept the system becomes. If you can
evacuate an area - if you know something is coming - do so. If you cannot, be prepared to be self-reliant and try to stay away from the chaos. Keep in mind that the folks who operate shelters are not able to control who shows up to them; including what their criminal background is, nor what illness they may bring. They are not able to provide the appropriate medical care or food when/if the volume of the disaster exceeds the resources available. They are not usually able to provide adequate medications, medical
care or safe shelter to folks with disabilities, special medical needs/equipment or illnesses. If/when the expected shelter buildings (schools, churches, etc.) are impacted, they cannot quickly acquire new buildings nor move food/equipment quickly enough. When/if it's needed, outside help is slow to come. The federal government won't do much, they sure as hell won't do anything quickly, and what support they do provide will likely be inadequate. The truth is, large disasters simply overwhelm the limited emergency response
system in the US very quickly.
For a recent example, look to North Carolina after Hurricane Helene. For a better documented one, look to the epic response failure that occurred in New Orleans after Katrina.
Be prepared to rely on yourself. In a large disaster, do yourself a favor and try to stay the hell away from government shelters.
Secret_Enthusiasm_21@reddit
since you worked in this area in a professional capacity, could you share some insight how an evacuation plan treats the various evacuation routes and anticipates traffic congestion?
Like for example, if I zoom in on google maps on a random city... let's say Springfield, IL. 113,000 people. Would it be fair to assume two people per car, so 56,500 cars need to get out of the city. There are four highways with four lanes. There are also five smaller arterial roads but I would assume their purpose is primarily to funnel traffic to the four highways. If we assume 1,000 cars per hour per lane, would it be correct to assume the four highways can accomodate 8,000 cars per hour, so the evactuation would take 7 hours?
SunLillyFairy@reddit (OP)
Evacuation routes are usually outlined in city and county plans, determined by law enforcement in consultation with other government departments. (Roads, Fire, City planners, etc.) They do have time estimates, which are useful when they have enough warning. The thing is that there are always limits - there are only so many ways out of town and they are quickly overcome if there is not much notice. Usually part of disaster response plan is to simply advise people of routes that are not available, and to keep relaying what information they can- like "at this time expect major delays on southbound highway x, avoid Jefferson and South 24 th if possible, as both have accidents causing major delays." Then provide what traffic support they can. When they have notice, like a hurricane, they try to do mandatory evacuations by predetermined zones so that everyone is not going at once. When they can (like approaching wildfires and hurricanes) they do whatever they can to prepare people, asking them to get ready, to try to give enough notice to account for inevitable traffic delays. Evacuation from cities is generally a problem. I was in Butte County Ca when they called an immediate evacuation (no notice) of the entire town of Oroville, population is relatively low for a city - around 20,000, greater area about 50,000. It was an absolute madhouse. There was an eminent threat of a dam failure. People were panicking... vehicles were carjacked, including violent assaults, people were trying to drive against traffic on other sides of roads, or off-roading, which caused a lot of accidents that first responders could not keep up with, which made it worse. There was absolutely no way to get people out as quickly as was advised. There was no way to organize transportation for people without cars quickly (like care homes, or the county jail or juvenile detention facility). In the end the dam held. The evacuation caused more harm than the predicted disaster. They learned and came up with a plan to close down most of the other side of the freeway, but there is really only so much they can do. Local resources cannot expand roads, nor can they expand the response personnel available to deal with the increased crime, accidents and injuries. If that dam had broke when all those people were trapped in their cars... at lot of people would have been dead. Parts of all the major routes out were right in the flood path. This is why being able to get out quickly and knowing your own best options is important, and another example of how the government can be very limited in their ability to support.
Secret_Enthusiasm_21@reddit
thanks for the detailed answer. It gave me a good idea of how reality might kick our butt when something happens
georgieboy74@reddit
If you don't mind, what are your plans A, B, and C?
hereugo87@reddit
Thank you for the reminder. The latest I've been getting were actual oil lamps. Lowe's didn't have any but battery lanterns and such.
A new local sports good place had oil lamps and the oil. Can't help not to think of the parable...get ready...stay ready.
sgtPresto@reddit
Excellent points. In the 70s while going to college on my return from Vietnam, I volunteered to be a Civil Defense volunteer. My role was to monitor radiation levels and assist with the declining municipal shelters in the event of a nuclear attack. It became very evident that the shelter-in-place strategy started in late 40s was totally inadequate to house and feed the population. By the late 70s most those municipal shelters were deactivated and monitoring devices and other supplies sold off as surplus. Within a few years Civil Defense was replaced by FEMA. Fast forward to New Orleans. As an asset reliability consultant, I started working with a large construction firm headquartered in New Orleans in late 1999. I visited them about six to seven times a year for the next 20 plus years. In fact, I was there mid August 2005 and went on a fishing trip with my client that weekend. One week later Katrina hit. I had a visit scheduled in late September which was postponed for October. When i returned I was devastated by the degree of destruction. But after listening to my clients staff it was clear how unprepared the company, city, state and federal governments were for an emergency of this scale. For example, the company's IT facility was flooded causing major loss of data. Equipment disappeared. People didnt return to work after fleeing to Houston or Baton Rouge. Many people were hanging out in hotels while every restaurant had signs trying to hire. It was a major cluster f**k. I realized that was a regional disaster and knew then that if something major happened we were on our own. Practice and plan self sufficientcy.
smellswhenwet@reddit
Same. Having lived in SoCal for many years in a small house, I did the best I could to prep for an EQ. Now that I’m out of there with more land, I’m doing the same and have formed a neighborhood group for such a time as you describe.
sgtPresto@reddit
Why don't you share your neighbor organization efforts. I have been thinking about various means people could organize a MAG.
smellswhenwet@reddit
I approached each neighbor separately and threw out a comment or question about natural disasters and being prepared. Most had an interest. I found the neighbor I had the most in common with and began having breakfast with him for more in-depth discussions. We then discussed each neighbor and what convos we have had with them. We distilled the list down and invited them to a meeting at my house to hear a local disaster prep guy. This step isn’t necessary, but it was an easy way to start. From there we started having regular meetings to cover different topics. There were a few we did not invite. One has an abrasive personality, another can’t keep his mouth shut, others had no clue. Generally it’s been a success. Especially helpful to get the neighbors to know each other and develop a level of trust. We have all purchased comms, working on well power redundancies, etc. Hope this helps a bit.
Ramcrates@reddit
Read a Really interesting documentary on the financial collapse in Zimbabwe "when money destroys nations' . If I remember right, they said that in nations where societal currency collapse has happened (Germany, Zimbabwe) that some nations handle things by community and working together (Zimbabwe) and some devolve into chaos (Germany). And I think they said the difference was in the strength and ties of the community. Zimbabwe has a strong national identity, fairly homogenous culture, and most were Christian. They were probably on mostly equal footing. Whereas Germany they were really in a similar position, but they are way more individualistic and have weaker community ties. And really, the more northern climate you live in, the more individualistic your culture is. And Americans are super individualistic. So I think it's highly likely in a disaster, if you live in Seattle and it's vaguely long-term, very high chance your society will devolve into every man for himself. Maybe you'll be better off in a rural town where folks are used to taking care of each other.
SunLillyFairy@reddit (OP)
I definitely agree with this. A strong community with neighbor helping neighbor always fares better.
69stangrestomod@reddit
Even FEMA recommends having a plan in place…
J701PR4@reddit
I have the FEMA guides for hurricanes and flooding. Do they have plans for large-scale civil unrest?
HummousTahini@reddit
Not exactly what you were looking for, but they have a number of guides for situation-specific disasters on their website, ready.gov: https://www.ready.gov/public-spaces
mediocre_remnants@reddit
In the aftermath of Helene in western NC, the vast majority of the aid distribution and shelter sites were set up by the local community - businesses and churches. It took a few days for the cities and counties to get organized, but before then the community was basically taking care of itself. Restaurants were giving out free hot meals, grocery stores were giving out free bags of groceries. I took food and water to a few of my neighbors.
Folks complained that FEMA wasn't there, but they were. They were doing their job. It's just that people don't know what FEMA's role in disasters actually is. Hint: it's in the name. Federal emergency management agency. Their main role is handling logistics and making sure stuff is getting where it needs to go. And they have the unfortunate role of recovering bodies.
Most of the actual food and water needs were provided by private donations from folks out of town. There were trucks bringing in trailers full of aid - as soon as the roads were open - and they'd just ask us where it needs to go. For at least 3 weeks I didn't pay a cent for any food or water. There was just so much stuff available, all over the place. And now, almost a year later, there are still random parking lots with pallets full of bottles of water just rotting there.
Anyway, you're right that you can't rely directly on the federal government for aid. But they've never really been in a role to directly provide aid. They coordinate and manage the response.
smellswhenwet@reddit
Well written. Thank you
InternationalRule138@reddit
I used to volunteer for the organization that assists with most of these shelters and does a lot of the recovery assistance and I mostly agree.
The reality is, this particular organization is focused on humanitarian relief - which is great, but people expect that it or the government will rebuild their lives for them. The number of people that I talked to who would say ‘when are you going to give me a new house’ would shock you.
That said…if you have a need, are hungry, need power to run medical equipment, need help on how to file and insurance claim, reunification assistance, or finding further assistance, the organization can be a god-send and shelters for humanitarian relief are needed.
I really wish more people understood the mission and how important it is to build resilience because the recovery process from a disaster is not something that’s going to come easy…
SunLillyFairy@reddit (OP)
I'm not sure if your talking about the Red Cross... but I worked in unison with them for years and was glad when they told me "sorry, we don't have staff and equipment available," which did happen sometimes, especially during fire season. I appreciate their mission but do not think they should run shelters or do the emergency part of the response. They have so many ineffective and laborious rules that cause problems... their systems are what usually cause long lines outside of shelters. I had quite a run in with them at the CA Oroville Dam evacuation, as they were not letting traumatized people into buildings and also not letting in food trucks, because they wanted to go through procedures that would take a couple of hours to set up. They do things like deny victims donated items because they haven't had time to "process" them or "decide who is eligible." If people need the blankets made by the church ladies... give them out. The people who donated them didn't expect victims would have to go through a tedious paperwork process to get them. I've seen several instances where donated items just rot while people go without. And to be fair... it's not their fault. The workers have to follow strict rules set by their funding folks, who are more worried about being sued than by the real needs of victims and relief workers. It would work much better if they'd show up to support local resources with labor and supplies but let local keep control and responsibility.
Itznotrealz@reddit
Isn't the real issue here because people are such litigious assholes they have to make these stupid rules? Why can't they just put a bullet lroof waiver form and make people sign it if they want to receive something and stop such Assange behavior from the get go?
SunLillyFairy@reddit (OP)
People are often litigious assholes. If someone is helping you to the best of their ability, suing them is definitely an asshole move. I do think it's a little different scenario when my tax dollars are paying for something that is not provided and that negligence of duty causes folks and/or their property to be harmed. That said, I agree with what you are saying, any of the rules are made because they're trying to avoid being sued. Personally I'd be more interested in fixing the response system to avoid that harm to future disaster victims than what profit I could get from it.
ExtraplanetJanet@reddit
I have found it to be the other way around, the Red Cross comes in and is ready to set up the shelter and get going, but the local government wants things exactly their own way and are unwilling to be flexible or listen to people who have actually run shelters. There’s one county we’ve tried to work with who want cold weather shelters but refuse to say whether they will open them until 9pm, which means they want volunteers driving in from out of county in the dark, in dangerous weather conditions, knowing that nobody’s going to show up because the shelter opened so late. It’s ridiculous. In the best cases, local government and the ARC work together and have plans made ahead of time so things work smoothly and everybody can cooperate. The Helene response from the Red Cross was honestly surprisingly good given the comms blackout and the way the first shelter was nearly washed away itself by the storm.
With all that said, I agree with the original point about not looking to be rescued if you don’t have to. I have prepped my home and family and attempted to build resilience in my neighborhood because the fewer people who need help, the more effectively help can be spread around. I would encourage everybody to do their best to find ways to make themselves safer and better prepared for emergencies because that is good for them and good for the community.
SunLillyFairy@reddit (OP)
That has not been my experience at all, but I'm glad you had a positive experience with them. I worked with one large church that always opened their doors to help us provide shelter - it was an awesome facility with a large gymnasium, big kitchen, nice big bathrooms, huge parking lot, and several small rooms off the main gymnasium that could be used for sheltering people who were medically needy. After I worked with them for about two years and through several sheltering incidents, they informed me we could no longer use their facility if the Red Cross was involved beyond providing basic supplies or equipment. Throwing away church property was their last straw after several other small disagreements.
Like most groups run by volunteers, it probably depends on who's in charge. It also sounds like your local people just didn't have a lot of experience or skill at what they were doing. Wouldn't it be awesome if the two just worked together really well? That would definitely be the best for the folks that need to help.
fatcatleah@reddit
I lost respect for the Red Cross during the evacuation for the Rim Fire, near Yosemite, 2013. I was a volunteer doing intake at the County Fair property. They had so many rules about pets, children, old people, that I got burnt out, and never volunteered for them again, for other fires in that Sierra area.
Wolf_Oak@reddit
There was a fire in San Diego county several years back. Not a very big one but several homes burned. People made financial donations to help the survivors. Journalists later uncovered that the money didn’t go to those people, it went to the Red Cross general fund and was used elsewhere. I’ve never trusted them after that.
Leopold_Porkstacker@reddit
Same thing happened with Red Cross after 9/11.
fatcatleah@reddit
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
iwantmy-2dollars@reddit
I lost respect for the Red Cross when they redirected funds from the 9/11 Liberty Fund to other Red Cross causes. $564 million was raised and only $154 million went to 9/11 victims.
SunLillyFairy@reddit (OP)
It's really sad. The folks making the rules don't stick around to see if they work. Common sense goes out the window. Volunteers get stuck in the middle, usually with victims pissed off at them.
deliberatelyawesome@reddit
Feels a little like preaching to the choir here
Eredani@reddit
Not really. Feels like 80% of this sub are only "prepping" for the mundane: job loss, personal illness, car repairs, ordinary power outages. The Tuesday crowd relies on community to see them through... which includes local disaster relief (i.e. government shelters and supplies).
The bigger concern for me is this sub's hyperfocus on the "most likely" events which are always limited in scope (area of effect and duration) meaning resource are available, rule of law holds and help is on the way. Of course community, teamwork and sharing are mutually beneficial under those conditions.
However, all of this falls apart in an open ended emergency. The "most severe" school of thought is reserved only for mentally unstable lone wolves hunkered in a bunker full of beans, bandages and bullets, plotting to kill their neighbors. At least that is according to the Tuesday pundits here.
So I dont think its out of line to point out the fatal flaws in our official disaster response systems. But as always, the people who need the message the most neither agree nor care.
EffinBob@reddit
Tuesday happens far more often than any other disaster, and preparing for it certainly puts you a step or two, at minimum, above those who don't prep at all. That doesn't mean the "Tuesday crowd" will end up at a shelter, particularly if they live in an area where Tuesday includes natural disasters like hurricanes on a regular basis. While building community is one of the most important preps, where it is possible, I hardly think anyone doing so is counting on others to provide any necessities for them. Building community is more about providing help to your neighbors in the form of labor on a temporary basis as able for things like removing trees from driveways and roads, not giving or receiving handouts from others.
nakedonmygoat@reddit
This is it exactly. First priority should be not needing help. Next priority is to be able to help others. I've been the person without an extra dollar at the end of the month to put toward prepping. The first thing I did when I got my life turned around was make sure I was ready for anything and could also help those less fortunate.
After Hurricane Ike, the first thing my neighborhood did, before it had even stopped drizzling, was start clearing the streets and make sure everyone was safe. No one organized it, we just did it. Those with chainsaws and axes went to work on the trees that fell. The rest of us did debris cleanup, moving everything off to the side so vehicles could get through. Power lines were down, and folks with knowledge about such things found safe ways to prop them up to let vehicles pass underneath. I still have pictures.
My workplace organized some relief efforts, but I was proud to be on the giving side, not receiving. And before the storm even hit, I just sighed in exasperation and started putting out the prep gear. It's nice not to be one of the people cleaning out the store shelves and getting into fights with strangers over cans of tuna. That alone should be motivation for those with the ability to prep to do so.
I can go for months without needing outside assistance. Anything longer than that would be a nation-wide or global catastrophe that I wouldn't be particularly interested in surviving.
etherlinkage@reddit
Your outlook is laudable. Easing the burden on community resources is something we should all be proud of.
Virtual-Feature-9747@reddit
Pretty narrow definition of community.
You don't think people go to churches, food banks, homeless charities, and participate in government programs looking to receive handouts? Of course they do and some of them count on these communities for necessities.
EffinBob@reddit
"Community" in the sense of prepping doesn't mean getting a handout. Certainly, there is a charitable presence in many communities. Nothing wrong with that, but relying on them isn't really prepping.
Hot-Profession4091@reddit
This. Our goal is to be one less family of mouths to feed in a disaster. It means someone else gets resources from whatever help comes and we stay out of the water lines.
vinean@reddit
Yes, the Tuesday crowd is prepping for hurricanes and not a long term systemic breakdown.
While the OP is correct (local disaster response and aid is limited) even in Katrina you could get by on a week’s worth of supply and with power back on around 4 weeks…assuming your house was still standing.
But SIP is situational. Nothing much survives a storm surge. Folks talk Louisiana but Mississippi also got hammered. All the coastal EOCs ended up underwater as the water hit 3 stories high in areas.
And in Katrina shelters filled in 24 hours of opening so it’s a good reminder from the OP not to depend on one.
Hurricanes are an every year occurrence and as Helene and Sandy reminds us, even folks that never think about Hurricanes can be impacted.
Hence Tuesday prepping…for more than the 72 hours most people don’t have anyway but for generally less than a month. Prepping for hurricanes and the “mundane” instead of SHTF.
Oh, and good luck with your SHTF scenario without a community. I can lone wolf a Tuesday prep. If I was actually prepping for an “open ended” TEOTWAWKI scenario then finding the right community and moving there would be number 1 on my list of preps.
The best doomsday prep is to get a decent paying remote job, live somewhere like fictional Jerico, Kansas and be a volunteer EMT. Enough cash to prep well, tied into the local community and emergency services folk, away from big cities but enough town and farmland to maybe have a functional society after. Maybe even a small hospital. Better odds of survival than even a billionaire bunker even as a Tuesday prepper.
Eredani@reddit
Yeah, so is the hyperfocus I was talking about. With a side of bad assumptions.
I'm not knocking community but it only works in two environments:
Limited scope (regional area of effect, short to medium duration, rule of law mostly intact, outside help on the way)
Equal footing (everyone is screwed, think Haiti, Venezuela or North Korea where no one has resources)
As soon as you have a breakdown of society and unequal distribution of resources, desperate people will whatever they have to. Especially parents seeking food, water, shelter or medicine for their children. Your one year food supply turns into a one week food supply once your 50 neighbors are involved. That's just math.
And what kind of community do you have if members with food are watching their neighbors go hungry? No one from Team Tuesday has been able to explain to me how this works.
vinean@reddit
Team Tuesday doesn’t prep for that since we generally don’t have a year’s worth of food anyway.
Most folks don’t go lawless in a week and I do maybe have enough ammo for that.
As far as questions people don’t have answers to Team TEOTWAWKI folks don’t like questions involving year 2 or what actually happens in month 2 when folks are desperate enough to kill others for supplies and they find you.
The only way to survive month two of a widespread disruption when the mobs come is for your neighbors band together and put up barricades that people man 24x7.
If you don’t have a community for TEOTWAWKI you’re just LARPing.
PrepperBoi@reddit
New Orleans was pretty lawless in a week and that was a regional disaster
vinean@reddit
Dodged the question I see…
PrepperBoi@reddit
You didn’t ask a question, you made a statement.
vinean@reddit
Question was whats your plan for year 2
PrepperBoi@reddit
Yeah, I kind of agree with the other guy. Making it to year 2 would be pretty difficult depending on what type of catastrophe we are talking about. I think the best thing you can learn to do is adapt and overcome.
I’m fairly certain by year 2 we would be talking about a 90%+ decrease in world population. I don’t think there’s much prepping for that except stay adaptable and have a learning mindset.
I think anyone that lasts that long would have a similar mindset.
Eredani@reddit
The typical Doomsday plan is to get though year one alive. Some type of new normal will emerge after 90% of the population is gone. Who knows what that will look like.
Speaking only for myself, my goal is to improve my family's odds of survival, help the people around me if its safe to do so, maybe provide some comfort/trade items, ride out the storm and see where we end up.
The goal is NOT to rebuild civilization from zero nor magically become self sufficient.
Eredani@reddit
More crazy assumptions.
Let me be clear, I know my neighbors, I dont plan to kill anyone, I stock a shit ton of extra food, and I am prepared to provide water treatment and sanitation guidance for everyone around me.
But there are real risks to simply attempting to build a mutual assistance group or even basic community. No one from Team Tuesday has been able to explain that process either. Lending tools to your neighbors does not translate into a trusted partnership in an emergency.
My thought is that we are all going to be involuntary teammates with the people within a mile of us. These unknown, potentially unskilled and probably unprepared folks are just as likely to be a liability as an asset. Community leaders can be dangerous and there will always be other communities... likely larger, more organized and potentially unfriendly.
vinean@reddit
Again, Team Tuesday isn’t prepping for that and our neighbors are trustworthy enough in an emergency because they know law will return in a week for the scenarios we prep for. Asked and answered. You just don’t like the answer.
So what is your month 2 and year 2 plan? The fact that Team Tuesday might not survive until Month 2 in TEOTWAWKI is immaterial.
And IF I were actually prepping for TEOTWAWKI I’d be among the community leaders in a rural town and flying under the radar as a prepper. Being a volunteer firefighter or EMT puts you in position to be close with a bunch of folks that are naturally going to be assets as well as ties into the local CERT. Also likely folks who are assets.
Cute_Still_6657@reddit
My problem with Tuesday vs Doomsday is the folks preparing for anything more than a state wide disaster have too limited of a scope in mindset, or they have some philosophical or religious bias telling them that America is the promise land. If my home washed away tomorrow, as long as I survive the initial impact, my citizenship gives me the rest of America's 3.5 million square miles of land to start over in, if I can't rebuild where my house was last time.
In the event of an "open ended emergency" where the entirety of the US is not habitable, social collapse, failed government, ect, that doesn't mean it's a global issue. There are plenty of examples of this throughout history, and the answer has never been to live in a fortified compound out in the boonies with 20 of your closest friends. This has not been the answer for civilian survival from WWI though Ukraine. This is not the answer if you find yourself in Hatti, South Soudan, Somali, Venezuela, North Korea. The answer is to emigrate to a country that has food on the shelf and it's safe for your kids to play outside. But because a large portion of the prepper community believes the garden of Eden was in Jackson County Mo, and the United States of America is God's promise land to his chosen people during the end times - that's how you end up with online discourse where the only options are being self sufficient for two weeks or 20 years, and whoever is telling you one of those things thinks the other is an idiot or "not a real prepper."
But no one wants to say the real prep is having residency in a 2nd country in your back pocket, or a plan to move cross country, because that involves more work than just spending money on "beans, bandages and bullets" and you don't get to look like a taticool badass in the process. If you are prepared for one or two weeks of Self-Sufficiency and have an evacuation plan and supplies to sustain yourself on an extended vacation without the help of the government, you can probably be prepared for 90% of incidents you need to be prepared for.
Virtual-Feature-9747@reddit
Uh, what? These are some of the weirdest assumptions I have ever heard.
When we say "open ended emergency" we are generally talking about a nuclear war, an EMP (with or without a nuclear war), a CME or perhaps a really (I mean REALLY) deadly pandemic. For places other than America this could also include a serious internal civil war/coup, an external invasion, or extended famine/drought.
Nothing to do with America being the promised land, we are talking about survival. If there was somewhere to go and some way to get there... sure go for it. But if it comes to leaving the US, where are you going and how are you going to get there? There are 340 million Americans. If even 1% elect to become refugees what is that going to mean for Canada or Mexico? Or are you going to build a boat and go where? What country is going to shelter millions of unskilled, uneducated, unpopular and privileged Americans?
And as for your answer, sure tell the people in Haiti, Somalia and North Korea to just move somewhere else. Holy shit, really? It's just that simple, huh?
In the scenarios I mentioned we are looking at about 90% of the population dying off over a year. In a full nuclear war many will die in the initial blast and from radiation. But even an EMP will cause a complete grid failure and supply chain collapse. Many will die from starvation and violence but the real killers will be cholera and dysentery. If one can weather the storm and hold out for that first year, some kind of new 'normal' will emerge. That is the goal of the Doomsday prepper. It's also worth noting that anyone prepared for a year long emergency is also prepared for dozens of lesser events as well.
As for being a "real prepper" - hey, you do you. Personally I don't think prepping is about being ready for stubbed toes and paper cuts, likely they may be. IMO, it takes more than an umbrella and a flashlight to be considered a prepper.
Cute_Still_6657@reddit
Hear me out, you need to understand the ties between Mormonism/LDS and prepping to see how the narrative gets formed online. The Ven diagram between influencers, Mormons, and preppers does have a very large overlap, and those voices are what drives discourse like this online. There are plenty of Ex-Mormon content creators who talk about how they were raised from an early age with the "hunker down in a bunker full of beans, bandages and bullets, plotting to kill their neighbors" type indoctrination. It very much does have to do with America being the promised land.
If you are reading this as an American citizen, It's a lot more simple for you than it is for someone your age born and raised in North Korea. It costs far less to secure a passport/residency in your pick of somewhat neutral or out of harm's way countries than buying land and building your compound on it, and it's going to be a much better quality of life to boot. "Just move somewhere else" is bugging out but it doesn't give the kooks on this sub the same hardon. It really is that simple. Come down to south Florida and you will find Ukrainians and Russian avoiding a war, Cubans and Venezuelans avoiding dictatorships and a wide range of latinos looking for a better life trying to provide for their family back home. I don't really care what happens to "millions of unskilled, uneducated, unpopular and privileged Americans" - If I secure dual citizenship today, chances are they're going to let me in, and If i can get my ass to the nearest embassy I might even get a ride. That's the smart play for these big picture emergencies. Emigrants have been immigrating as long as there has been war, this isn't really a new or foreign concept. It just seems like wild take to an American because USA#1 and all other countries suck balls - clearly if things are bad in America they will be bad everywhere.
We can play make believe on what is going to happen in an EMP or Nuclear attack, but the fact of the matter is most of that math and testing was done over half a decade ago. There is a very good chance that an EMP is not going to be a widespread "One second after" type event. Nuclear Doctrine has changed since the cold war, and it's questionable that anyone has the arsenal for effective MAD, the threats are not the same and impacts not well studied. Just like how COVID was "Not that bad" I think there is a lot to say for an EMP being "Not that bad" I mean it's going to be bad, but it's probably going to also be bad in your BOL 2 hours away in the forest, but It might be kinda normal for most 2nd world countries.
I did plenty of international travel during COVID, even when the world was shut down there were flights to and from Asia daily. I will bet you beans and bullets that there will be some form of transportation to get where you need to go, mostly countries coming to rescue their citizens. If you're smart, and you prepare now, you won't need to "Build a boat and go where" you can have papers and plane tickets to get out of dodge before things get even worse. Objectively, SHTF in Cuba but there are still five flights a day between Havana and Miami. You are much better off starting over in a new country that wasn't nuked compared to fighting for your life in a shipping container somewhere outside of Provo Utah.
SunLillyFairy@reddit (OP)
Fair enough. However, I've seen a lot of new folks on here lately asking basic prep questions, which leads me to believe they may not know this.
deliberatelyawesome@reddit
Yeah. Never bad to say it again I guess
No_Character_5315@reddit
Best prep for these localized disasters is money it was mostly the lower income people that suffered. Wealthy have the ability to pick up and move before the hurricane ever hit. Even a unpredictable disasters like a earthquake the rich will move out of the disaster area quickly via private modes of transportation.
YouLearnedNothing@reddit
This sort of highlights another government failure. Multiple bus companies and I believe their metro were attempting to contact mayor nagen in new orleans before and after the disaster to offer assistance in getting people out, no calls were returned.
InternationalRule138@reddit
It’s not that they can pick up and move before the disaster, it’s that the wealthy can afford the correct level of insurance coverage on their stuff have enough money in the bank that they can cover the deductibles. And it’s often also tied to job status.
One thing I never realized until moving to a hurricane prone area is that often with your home insurance you have a separate, substantially higher, deductible for named storms - and it’s often a percentage of the total value of your property. One tactic that a lot of insurance agents will use to get your rate down is to sell you a policy with this substantially higher deductible for named storms, and since a lot of people don’t really understand their policy when a named storm comes along they don’t have the money to fully recover or relocate post disaster.
Now…this applies to property owners, if you rent or are unhoused there are other issues at play in the recovery process…
The other big factor that many people don’t think about is the economic shift/impact of large scale disasters. When it’s really bad, a lot of people end up losing their source of income. Contractors will swoop in and there are jobs that become available, but there are a lot of changes and not everyone is resilient.
_takeashotgirl_@reddit
look at the LA fires!! Absolutely terrible what they allowed to happen. But guess who as able to save their homes/businesses? People that stayed vs evacuated. They had access to pools/hot tubs and saved their property. The govt sure as he'll didn't do their job, there didn't even have any water!! I'm glad people are suing the city, someone needs to be held accountable for these man made/supported disasters
Intelligent_hexagon@reddit
FEMA: Falsely Expecting Meaningful Aid
Global-Cheesecake922@reddit
It’s been mentioned many times, but after watching the Katrina docs it definitely made more aware of how unprepared/ how unwilling the US gov is to help its own citizens. I definitely was one of the Americans who was ill-informed by the media and had no idea how absolutely terrible it was down there.
Different-Chest-5716@reddit
Watching the new katrina documentary on Netflix made me realize how difficult evacuations can be. Being stuck in traffic for hours on a dwindling gas tank must be anxiety inducing.
Calm-Proof3577@reddit
They had plenty of warning and the civil engineers told local politicians for 20 years befor katrina the levy would break in the next big hurricane.
SeriousGoofball@reddit
This is one area that EV or hybrid vehicles excel in. An EV can run the AC for days if it isn't moving.
My hybrid stops the motor when I'm stopped or creeping along but everything runs off the EV battery. Every once in a while the engine kicks on for a few minutes to recharge the battery.
In gridlock it would take me a long long time to run out of gas.
popthestacks@reddit
How do you think that would go if you were trapped / not moving and everyone else around you was in a gas vehicle with no power / AC / water?
SeriousGoofball@reddit
Obviously, every situation is different. If it's absolutely grid-stalled with no movement and you're trapped in the middle then you're going to be screwed in the long run.
But in a lot of situations, it's long periods of creeping at 1 mile an hour followed by periods of sitting still. As vehicles die, people either push them off the road or just go around them.
In that situation, an EV or hybrid vehicle has a strong advantage.
It's not like people are going to be in traffic and all the gas engines are just going to die, all at the same time. There is going to be a trail of dead vehicles littering the road.
Glass_Masterpiece@reddit
I did the same thing in Helena. My bolt ev helped keep us cool when it was still 88 degrees at night and we had no power for a week. I've actually now seen several interesting setups for the bolt to run an inverter off of the 12v battery to run minor appliances.
Temujin_123@reddit
That's what I did after a cyclone.
EVs 12V -> Bluetti -> generator plug -> interlock kit -> main panel.
Silent, indoors, and in my setup likely would last a week with modest power draw (gas furnace, tankless gas water heater, some lights). In summer we'd be able to run some fans. It could run AC window unit, but that would drain much faster than just fans).
Glass_Masterpiece@reddit
Yeah I'd probably just use it for my chest freezer and maybe a fridge
Temujin_123@reddit
Ah, yes. Forgot about that. Since ours was just overnight, I only ran the fridge for a bit. Longer power outage I'd run furnace (in winter), tankless gas hot water heater (only draws 70W when in use), and fridge/freezer.
Temujin_123@reddit
They also are more efficient at producing power (and do so in and indoor garage).
For the NW bomb cyclone I used a Bluetti with my EVs hooked up to it charging it then my Bluetti to my generator plug to my main panel (interlock kit).
We had heat, hot water for showers (tankless gas water heater), and lights when needed. Fortunately, we were only out overnight since we live close to a power substation. But I figure that setup could have taken us through a week without power (rationing power to just heat/hot water/some lights).
PrepperBoi@reddit
Which doc did you watch?
nakedonmygoat@reddit
Over 100 people and countless pets died in the Hurricane Rita evacuation a month after Katrina. Most were not under evacuation orders, they were just panicking. Highways were gridlocked, gas stations ran out of fuel, and people ran out of water and died out there in the heat on the side of the impassable roads.
My husband and I didn't feel safe in our apartment, so we relocated with our prep gear to his office, an interior room on the 4th floor of a 6-story brick building. The next morning, after Rita had turned, we went home. Had we joined the mob, we would've still been sweating on gridlocked highways, probably with an empty gas tank and a dead cat. Three years later, we rode out Ike at our new house, a sturdy little thing, although I've now got a different plan in the event of anything bigger than a Cat 2. Like with Rita, it's a "shelter nearby" strategy.
The reality is that cities simply can't empty out quickly. It's better to be prepped and either hunker down at home or at a previously identified safe place nearby. There are people who have no choice but to leave, whether due to location or a medical condition. Maybe I'm just a softie, but I figure those folks should get evacuation priority and don't need me blocking their escape. I can't control what other people do, but I can control my own choices.
SunLillyFairy@reddit (OP)
Evacuating to that office building was an excellent strategy. Evacuating your home, if potentially unsafe, does not necessarily mean long travel. Too many folks think of evacuation as all or nothing. Sometimes the two-story brick school or church 1/2 a mile away is the best option.
YouLearnedNothing@reddit
Holy hell, I had no idea this happened..
SunLillyFairy@reddit (OP)
💯I was trying to keep it a respectable length, but this is why I said if you can. I probably should have also said if appropriate. There was an evacuation in the CA Oroville Dam crisis that proved more dangerous and traumatizing than the disaster. Evacuations are often not organized well; and while sometimes there is not much warning or choice, other times there is. Hurricanes are a good example because for most coastal areas they have warning. You have to have a reasonable route, decent transportation and gas. Evacuation routes need support in the form of law enforcement, gas tenders and medical aid. In New Orleans just evacuating more folks to higher ground would have been helpful. They were telling people to go to the Super Dome as a last resort, expecting a few hundred, but didn't give folks other reasonable alternatives so got over 15 thousand. Yet the area had a lot of higher ground areas with schools and such that were not utilized. Poor city folks with no transportation can't evacuate... the parish and state governments knew that Katrina was coming, they talked about it for weeks, they should have had buses pulling people out of low-lying areas for days before it hit... especially the medically frail folks.
BallsOutKrunked@reddit
read Five Days at Memorial if you want a gnarly Katrina story
Internal_Raccoon_370@reddit
Agreed. I was involved in county level emergency prep some years ago. The county agency was putting out information that was wildly incorrect and decades out of date. One of the emergency shelter locations they had listed was one of the local high schools, with a long list of available equipment, etc. This surprised me enormously because I worked in the maintenance department at that school myself so if we were supposed to be an emergency shelter I should have known about it because I was one of the people who'd have to set things up at the school. I checked with the school administration and it surprised the hell out of them too. We had none of the facilities, resources or equipment listed. The county's data was referring to the old facility and resources that had been put in place during the Cold War era in the 1950s/60s. We weren't even in that building any more. Nobody had bothered to update the information in that book for over 30 years.
ErinRedWolf@reddit
😱 That’s horrifyingly irresponsible of them. That info (and supplies) should be frequently verified and updated.
Internal_Raccoon_370@reddit
It should indeed have been updated regularly. It was a real mess. Some new people who actually knew what they were doing had just been brought onboard on both the professional level at the county department and with the local ARES volunteer group (amateur radio emergency services), including me, and... I won't go into details. I'll just say it's a damned good thing we never had to actually activate the emcomm system because we basically didn't have one.
divorceevil@reddit
I think this goes for all guvmint run shelters. This is about homeless shelters but it's still telling ... https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/lawsuit-sexual-harassment-inhumane-conditions-oc-homeless-shelters
EnvironmentalKey3858@reddit
Considering I can't get any help from them, or any extant entity (medical care, therapy, unemployment, food stamps, housing assistance, etc.) ((this is all over a span of years so go ahead and fuck off before you pull the "get a job" card out of your deck, I work FOR the goddamn government... Ahem)) ...... I'm not sure how or why I, or anyone, would even remotely hope they take care of the people from this point forward.
Must have been something funny in that government cheese from way back when. Because everyone around me seems to think it's still 1980.
Exciting_Turn_9559@reddit
You've got malevolent noobs running most of the key agencies that forecast and respond to emergencies federally right now. If someone throws you a roll of paper towels, you are one of the lucky ones.
triviaqueen@reddit
I did a considerable amount of emergency training with the Red Cross. During one break, I conversed with another attendee who had gone to assist both to Katrina and to the Boxing Day Tsunami. She said that of the two disasters, the people of washed-away under developed 3rd world countries like Thailand recovered much more quickly than the people of Katrina. Why? Because first of all, the people involved in the tsunami were not (at that time) dependent upon their phones and computers, and therefore were not handicapped when those things did not function any more. Second, those were also the people who had NOT grown up expecting The Government to come to their rescue -- they grew up in a culture where people took care of themselves, and that's what they did.
Spare_Town6161@reddit
Particularly this federal administration. If you are not a billionaire they could care less what happens to you.
mslashandrajohnson@reddit
Yup. Masshole here. How much effort do you think the current federal government is going to extend to a disaster in the bluest state in the US?
The government changes relatively frequently (or has, in the past). We need community and skills and willingness to help one another locally.
YouLearnedNothing@reddit
Love you trying to keep it short, but I would read a longer version of this
Ponkapple@reddit
same!
Princessferfs@reddit
Watch the Netflix series Spike Lee did on Hurricane Katrina for the 20th anniversary. Our .gov is horribly incompetent in this space.
Whenever politicians need to be an actual leader we’re in trouble.
NowIKnowMyAgencyABCs@reddit
I was there when Helene happened and now have food, water, etc in case something like that ever happens again. I would first evacuate. But I experienced it first hand, you are on your own.
SetNo8186@reddit
Lived near a metro which suffered an EF5, worked about two miles from the impact zone during the recovery and clean up. What was most effective were the huge number of residents who own their own skid steers and backhoes. The streets were cleared in less than five days, and we were out of flat fixit kits by then. FEMA didn't show up with any help for two weeks.
Same with an EF1 our small town suffered, I spend two days cutting my way up the lane onto asphalt to get clear of dozens of trees down. And here is the major safety issue - people get hurt trying to be heroes and making rushed decisions when exhausted. Going out and buying a pair of tough boots and a new chain saw is no qualification of being an experienced and trained operator. I would and did in fact refuse help from the constant flow of people who demanded to help even when not asked - until I got hurt. And I was already a wood cutter for my own home, and when recovered, spent months cleaning up on my land. The last tree was a 54 incher and was visible in satellite photos laying in the yard.
Watching well intentioned folks trying to split large wet red oak rounds and having the maul spring back almost to their head was frightening enough, seeing good natured people sawing trapped limbs and a 200 pound 15 foot branch release and swing thru a 90 degree arc just missing them is another. The one man killed during cleanup in our small town was hit in the head from a trapped limb, never considered it would do that. Once I was mobile it was a weekly occurance, along with trunks sliding downhill while cutting them.
"Always stay above the cut" is a good rule to follow. Avoiding ladders to cut large limbs is another. If you can't get both your hands around it, it's too big for you if its sticking out more than 16". Since I was cutting for firewood, I did, and that kept most of the falling or rolling stuff manageable. Arborists look at getting it down and cut up in an 8 hour workday, disaster crews with heavy equipment need to clear a street in less than an hour. A homeowner is under no such constraints and is also usually lacking any experience in felling trees etc. Don't let the adrenaline hype you into making rushed decisions - after the storm, there really is no big rush, it will all get done and its better to take some time doing it rather than getting broken bones - or worse. That phase is supposedly over once the sun shines, but the reality is a significant number of injuries still take place after. Don't be That Guy.
Three broken ribs both ends, compound fracture left leg, wedged vertebra, 45 pound max lift and not a dollar of disability. Just sayin.
bprepper@reddit
Great read.
nakedonmygoat@reddit
I don't think anyone on this sub would ever darken the door of a government shelter, unless we're there to help hand out food and blankets. A lot of us here probably have enough stuff to open our own shelters!
With qualifications, I disagree about evacuating, though. Over 100 people died in the Hurricane Rita evacuation, more than who were killed by the storm itself, so leaving should be a carefully considered last resort. It's better to pack up some of your prep gear and move to a previously identified safe location nearby unless a family member has a serious medical condition or the nature of the emergency is such that no close place is safe.
"Convenience evacuees" prevent people from leaving who need to do so to save their lives. Roughly 2/3 of people in the deadly Hurricane Rita gridlock were panicky fools who didn't need to be there. The unfortunate reality is that cities simply can't empty out quickly, and by their very nature, emergencies rarely give enough lead time to make orderly evacuation possible.
SunLillyFairy@reddit (OP)
I agree that evacuation should only be done when appropriate and safe. I can tell you that there is no way in hell I'm staying in an area by the coast that is at or below sea level when a cat 3 or higher hurricane is coming in, or an area by a river when flash floods are predicted... nor am I hanging out trying to shelter in place when a wildfire is coming. I've worked too many disasters and witnessed too many devastated families to assume thats going to work out OK. I will also say that there's not enough local or vertical evacuation done, it can be very effective. Often folks don't need to flee to far away places to get to safety.
NewLawGuy24@reddit
You are alone and the government is useless.
Remember that as you prepare.
TheRealBunkerJohn@reddit
When getting my Master's in Emergency Management & Disaster preparedness, one of the first things we watched (in the initial required courses,) was a documentary on Katrina. I've also spoken with people who were on the ground during that time, and it was much much worse than officially reported.
The government can be malicious, just like people- I'm not denying that. But in the vast majority of cases, it's a massively inefficient machine, even if there's people working there who truly want to help. The government will do its best- but people shouldn't expect a ton, both due to bureaucracy, politics, and funding cuts.
Personally, I think the government should be involved in such efforts. Unfortunately, humans (and governments) are largely reactive instead of proactive in regards to preparedness. Maybe that'll change in the future; I hope it will. In the meantime, that's why FEMA has recommended a 2-week supply of essentials at home.
nunyabizz62@reddit
Never even crossed my mind that the US government would be any help, in fact if anything in a real SHTF situation we will most likely have to be defending ourselves from them. They are less than useless
gadget850@reddit
When Little Sioux Scout Ranch was hit by a tornado in 2008, they had done primary care for the injured and cleared the roads by the time EMS arrived.
Old_Dragonfruit6952@reddit
If you dive deep ( even a mud dive) you can see that for a major disaster the government Responce is to focus on tbe continuity of govt Not citizens
We are on our own . I expect nothing less . Therefore my hovel near a major airport and NLG terminal will ensure my quick demise if there is a nuclear strike .. . They arent going to provide any thing for us
Though we have a bug out site 160 miles from us , an EMP will render our modern vehicle useless, and we will have to bike out of the city.
It is stocked and very remote at our site but if we cant get there ( deep winter snow ) its moot.
Cute_Still_6657@reddit
I don't expect the government to tuck me in bed and give me a forehead kiss in my own room in a shelter if a major disaster occurred, I mean everyone and their brother says to be self sufficient for at least 72 hours. I'm also not going to wait 72 hours and expect a government charted bus to roll up to my door drive me off to Safety.
My expectation of government is basically to clear major arterial roads and somehow communicate that they did this, also establish no-go areas or evacuation zones depending on the disaster. If i were cut off ala Hurricane Helene, I would anticipate someone offering me water or a ride within a week.
dittybopper_05H@reddit
Outside of very rich countries that take civil defense very seriously, like Switzerland, I think this advice applies to all countries, not just the United States.
Dacklar@reddit
I'm more concerned with the government taking my preps than the government helping me.
SatansMoisture@reddit
If you want something done right......
logonbump@reddit
Isaiah 36 6 It is clear you depend on the support of Egypt, that splintered reed which enters and pierces the palm of any man who leans on it. Such is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all who rely on him!
LurkersUniteAgain@reddit
What