How to actually consistently nail the power off 180?
Posted by MajesticSky6223@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 116 comments
I am a commercial student, checkride in 8 weeks. My lazy 8s are almost consistent, my chandelles are consistent, my steep turns are nearly consistently within ACS, accelerated stall almost there, all other stalls and slow flight has been pretty good. Steep spiral is improving drastically, and we just started 8s on pylons (so nervous about them!!!!). For the bad news, I am seemingly and embarrassingly incapable of the power off 180, I guess I’m not judging on base if I am high or low, thus I’m screwing up. I fly a Cessna 172 (180 HP). Something needs to change, and soon since I don’t have that much time. If any of you have some tips for improving these, I really do need them! I need a consistent approach to these for sure…and for the most part I’m overshooting my point!
cmmurf@reddit
Please describe your current technique in detail. Maybe that will expose the problem?
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Definitely consistency with the outcome, always long by about 400 ft. My airport’s pattern is 1200 AGL, so it is nonstandard. My current technique (which doesn’t work!) is to pull the power abeam the point, pitch and trim for best glide (68) turn base once I begin descending (usually I wait until I descend 75-100 ft). I put 10 degrees of flaps on base, then I try to see if I’m high or low (but I don’t have a wonderful sight picture, probably because I doubt myself on the power off 180). Then I turn final, and usually realize I’m high. Like not a little high, very high. At this point definitely 20 degrees flaps, often 30 depending on how high. Often a slip too, though I find my airspeed has been getting too fast in the slip. So hence, I’m overshooting horribly!!
NitNav2000@reddit
Don't trim for best glide. Trim for best energy control in the pattern. Trim for 70 if best glide is 63.
When you roll final, point your nose at the intended point of landing and hold it. Pick a bug smash on the windscreen and lock it on the point, this locking in your attitude.
If you are still way fast, drop your nose further and lower yourself on the glidepath a bit. Pitch back up and target the intended point of landing. The extra speed you gained in the increased descent rate will bleed off and you will now be a steady 2-3 knots slower than you were before due to the shallower glidepath. Repeat as necessary. You can also sideslip and bleed off the excess energy. Goal is to get to a glidepath that gives you the speed you want.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Best glide is 68, I’ll trim for 75. My instructor likes that thought of pitching the nose down, I’m going to try that tomorrow. Thank you so much!!
NitNav2000@reddit
Really, when you have the nose pointing at the intended point of landing, trim for that speed. If you adjust your glidepath because you are too fast (or slow) then trim for the new speed. Use 75 kts as the start.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Thank you so much!!!! Definitely going to try this!
Mayhem-Echoes@reddit
For me here is what worked as a technique - - Be very consistent with altitude and airspeed when you hit your downwind abeam point. For me that was 1200’ and 90 kts - Pull power abeam the touchdown point and continue downwind. Slow down to just above best glide (70 vs 63). I choose above best glide because it maintains the option to slow to best glide if you need to extend. - Stay solid on speed and turn base after descending about 200 feet. Watch the runway and judge your altitude. Takes practice
- Continue descending at 70 through base. No flaps. Flaps are saved for the end in case you are low. Judge altitude and start a slip if high and slow down to best glide if low. Plan to be high. - Turn final. Usually at this point I am intentionally high and plan to slip to the runway. I prefer that because i can put it in or take it out as needed. Slow down to best descend (just below best glide) and slip to lose altitude as much as required, all the way to ground effect if needed. Speed control is key to control the flare. - If you get too low, use flaps just above the runway to extend your glide. Otherwise just put it down on your point with no flaps.
Go out early morning when air is calm and practice many of them on the same runway until you have the sight picture. Choose ground references to help. Once you have that runway mastered and know the site picture, only then start to work with different runways and wind.
Lots of practice but it will eventually click. Even then it requires some luck.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
I’m going to try this. For me it’ll be 1700’ and 90. I’ll slow down to about 75 (I’m probably a touch slower than this usually). I usually descend 100, but I can definitely afford 200 even with the hills in the vicinity. I like your idea of no flaps, I do think that’s far smarter. I am always high, but this actually makes sense!!! I’ll try this next time, probably all I’ll practice next flight!
Mayhem-Echoes@reddit
Great! Note that the descent altitudes are a starting rule of thumb. As you practice, start with them but focus on learning the sight picture of what good looks like. So that you are able to better handle different winds, runways, etc.
For me wind compensation came easier first, but rising or falling terrain took more time. Flying into rising or falling terrain on the extended downwind of different runways made me feel higher or lower and I had to focus on the runway height.
It will also be different when you have a CFI or DPE with you. Right traffic was yet a different picture. Just take it one step at a time.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
That’s exactly the problem…I do have wind compensation already to some point. Though you exactly nailed it, rising and falling terrain!! Around my airport (KDXR) there are mountains and hills all around the airport, and because of that, my sight picture is really messed up and I can’t figure out if I am high or low. We tried them at a nearby airport, and I actually was beginning to be able to see if I was high or low. I’m not sure if my DPE will do the landings at KDXR or the other airport (on private he gave the option). Right traffic is EVEN HARDER, that’s what I had practiced at the other airport.
Mayhem-Echoes@reddit
It goes against everything you learned so far to train your brain to descend towards terrain with the engine idle. Keep with it, watch airspeed, be patient and wait for the descent to happen despite terrain, and it will come.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
It really does!!!!!!! I’m always afraid of being short too, so I’ve psyched myself out so much so I’m high (like wayyy high). I will watch my airspeed and try that for sure!!! I’m flying next on Tuesday!
megasaurass@reddit
Don't trim for best glide. Best glide is for going the most distance, as you can tell you don't need that for the PO 180. I just did mine a month or 2 ago, and what helped me was pitching for 80 knots right away, 10 degrees of flaps, slowww base turn and fine tune from there. Save the rest of flaps for last, if you come up short you can extend them slowly to float a little farther. If you might be long you can raise them over the runway and drop it on your landing spot.
Mine got soooo much better when I stopped pitching for best glide. Not sure why CFI's teach that, at least in the 172 you can get to damn near the departure end of the runway pitching for it with no wind.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Thank you. 80 knots and put in 10 degrees immediately, got it. And I’ll leave the 20 and 30 degrees for last, thank you!!!! This really helps so much!!!
nothingclever1234@reddit
This sounds similar to what I went through because my instrument instructor had me start practicing them and my first one ever (at like 60 hours) I came in way low and it was an uncomfortable experience to say the least. The only thing that helped me stop overshooting it was extending my downwind further than you think you need to, obviously this takes lots of practice to see how much of an extension is too much. but from what you described I would try extending your downwind could be helpful.
The other advice I’ll add is doing them in different wind conditions and at different airports. I did most of my training on a 100 foot wide runway but my CSEL check ride was on a 150 foot runway and the sight picture was noticeably different, it also helps you not rely on specific points of reference on the ground so you get better at judging whether you’re high or low rather than just flying to a point. Good luck, it’s a bitch of a maneuver.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
It is the worst maneuver ever!!!! That may help to extend my downwind further, thank you!!!!!!
Sol_hawk@reddit
If you’re high remember what tools you have at your disposal like a forward slip, or some S-turns. The forward slip you can do for 3-5 seconds, then stop and reevaluate your glide path. Still high? Do it again. If you’re on target then ride it out. Trick is to slip it on and off to gauge your approach so you don’t overdo it and land short. If you’re really high, turn ~30° off from the runway and slip it for a bit, stop, turn back towards the runway and resume the slip.
If you’re low, then trim it for best glide and hold it and make sure you’re going straight towards the runway. Realize you went too far on downwind, skip the base leg, there’s no requirement to square it off just make the shortest path to the runway as possible. As you get near ground effect you can put in the flaps one step at a time. This can generally buy you a couple hundred feet. This is also the reason I recommend selecting an aiming point further down the runway like the first stripe, if you are low then your putting flaps in trying to stretch your glide while you’re over pavement and not grass. Missing the point and a go-around are both fails for the maneuver, but missing the point by being 50’ short and on centerline is significantly more likely to still get a pass then 50’ short of the runway and having the DPE rip the controls out of your hands.
If there’s only one or two airports you might be doing the power off 180 at, try to find visual references on the downwind as where to start a base turn in calm winds, ~5kts and maybe 10kt scenarios. Take notes about what did and didn’t work to refine your awareness about those reference points.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
That’s such a good point, that’s exactly what I did wrong last time with the slip! Thank you, that’s really a great idea to slip on and off!!!! Thank you!!!
woop_woop_pull_upp@reddit
Goto the practise area and do multiple P/O 180s at altitude under different configurations and see how much altitude you lose during the 180 under each configuration. This should help you in the circuit. Being slightly high can always be fixed with a forward slip.
You can also tell where you'll touch down by looking at which point on the runway doesn't move up or down whicle you're on final and only gets bigger. If your aiming point is moving up then you'll land before it. If its moving down, you'll overshoot it. This will allow you to start correcting earlier instead of last minute. The rest is practise and sticking to the numbers. If your speeds are all over the place, then you won't have a solid baseline to work from.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
My speeds haven’t been the most consistent in my last lesson, I’m going to fix that. Thank you!!
5m3ff@reddit
Seems dumb, but go toot around in slow flight, will help a ton in region of reverse command, ik your a commercial student and you have the skills to nail it all, but go do a half hour of it and picking different airspeeds to hang at.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
That’s what I’m going to do tomorrow!!!!
woop_woop_pull_upp@reddit
Yeah speed control has to be down pat. I'd also recommend going up early morning or late afternoon/early evening one day when the air is nice and still. This will make it smooth while flying and will really drive home that attitude=speed.
I know when you're new, sometimes one gets caught chasing the speed needle during bumpy and gusty days. Just gotta remember its all about attitude.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Next lesson it’ll be just the power off 180 for sure and I’ll work on getting the speed!!!!! So frustrating!
FarNefariousness4371@reddit
For reference this is a DA40 technique where I have greater than 90% success. Best glide 88 kts, stall 60. I cut power abeam the point and immediately add flaps 20. Count to 3 then point directly at the point. From there gauge based on sight picture and either widen the pattern or dump flaps 42 and start slipping. If I’m high or fast, pitch up and get low speed high sink(don’t hold nose high just enough to bleed all the energy off). If I’m slow or low, trust the glide speed like my life depended on it. My technique is to always cross the threshold in ground effect at 83-85kts. Any slower it’ll be a hard landing. Any faster and I’m slipping in ground effect all the way to the thousands kicking out last second so it’s not side loaded.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Interesting!!!! Thank you very much!!!!!
Weird_Flexing@reddit
This might not help you actually nail them every time, but it could help you to at least pass the maneuver on a checkride.
Don't use the aiming point markings (the thousand footers) as your intended touchdown point. Depending on the runway length, these markings are only 100-150' long. If you use them as your touchdown aim point and you don't land ON the marking, it's obvious. If you choose another point on the runway (e.g. abeam a taxiway), it's much more subjective whether you actually landed within the required 100'.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
We’ve always used the aiming point markers!!!!! That’s true, it would be more subjective if on a stripe (those are 120ft) since I get plus 200 minus 0.
Weird_Flexing@reddit
Ah my mistake, I was thinking of the short field landing when I said 0/+100'. But you get the idea, and can apply it however you want. Good luck!
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Don’t worry, they both are awful standards!!!!! Thank you very much!!!!!!
CoolStage5238@reddit
Make yourself too high because if you’re too low you’re screwed no matter what. Forward slip if you need to and if you think you’re going to float beyond the point pull the flaps up and it will come right down.
My cfi taught me this and it’s the most fool Proof method I’ve ever found. It’s ridiculous and the dpe didn’t like it when I did it on the checkride, but he passed me.
This is the only way I’ve ever been able to pretty much do them fool proof.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Mine is a 172R!!!! That’s super interesting, thank you!!!!!!
rationalkool-aid@reddit
This is simple. Keep your eyes outside the cockpit and look at where you want to land. The airplane will go exactly where you look. It’s like throwing a baseball… do you glance at your target and then look at the ball in your hand as you throw it?
It’s power off, so you have pitch, flaps and or forward slip to work with. When the power is pulled, look at landing point and don’t take your eyes off it during the entire maneuver. If you can’t figure out your attitude and airspeed by the visual horizon then you need to work on that. Do these things and you’ll never miss another one for the rest of your life.
Hemmschwelle@reddit
The usual recipe will get you close.
Set up so the geometry of your pattern requires a slip for 50% of your final leg. If you're high when you turn final, do more slipping. If you're low when you turn final, do less slipping. This is the basic strategy that gliders use, but most of us use spoilers instead of slip.
A turning slip can be very useful for PO180s when you turn base too soon.
NiVEK0510@reddit
I’m a commercial student now and I’ve got my checkride in 3 weeks. What’s worked for me when I practice alone is.. as soon as I abeam the thousand footers. Carb heat on, power to idle, first notch of flaps (flaps 10), and trim for 65. I try to lose 200 the turn base. Depending on the winds, I’ll either fly out the base for a bit if I’m still high.. or go straight towards the numbers. Then judge if I’m high, if I’m high, flaps 20. Then fly it out and towards the runway and aim for the 500 footers as my aim point. Keep it on the one thirds. If I’m lined up with the runway and going to be short, I’ll drop the last notch of flaps while in ground effect and it’ll give me just enough lift to make the thousand footers but if I’m high enough, I’ll typically land on the thousand footers with 20 flaps and be good. Lastly, this seems to only work if I’m practicing by myself. I’ve find out, if I make my base turn just 150 foot after abeaming the thousand footers, then judging everything else, it works out too. But basically it all depends on the winds etc.
All I’m saying is.. if you have a somewhat of a flow, you can judge and figure out what you need to land on the thousands. Anyways, hope this helps and good luck on your ride.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
I like this a lot!!!!! Thank you!!! Best of luck with the Checkride!!!!!!
NiVEK0510@reddit
Let me know if you try the method I was taught and if it works for you. Again, all the best and good luck!
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
I’ll let you know for sure!!! Good luck to you as well, thank you!!!!!
Guilty_Raccoon_4773@reddit
What's your height for the power off 180? I assume you guys commence the maneuver abeam the threshold at 1000ft or 1500ft agl?
Set best glide speed asap. In your cessna likely about 65...70 kias when clean. In nil wind, consume less than one third of your height on your forward leg. Less than the second height on the base leg. You should have a third of height left for the final leg.
Assuming rather shallow turns. If you have the choice: turn left, for the better views towards the runway.
If you are high, you shall set flaps earlier or more of them and fly faster, up to the end of the white arc. The c172 is able to dissipate exzessive height quite well. Once flaps are set you likely will not retract them any more for corrections, but you may adjust your speed.
If you feel, due to wind or whatever, that your height is scarce, do not set flaps and fly the best glide speed. It is not so nice for the tires due to higher speed when clean.
As well, consider the length of your runway. If it is really long: is it required to touchdown in the touchdown zone for the maneuver to pass? Of not, and the runway length allows, you may allow for touchdown somewhat later than for a normal landing.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
My height is 1200 ft agl. Mine is 68kias clean. This seems to make sense, I usually do too steep of turns (of course no more than 30, but close to 30). Length of the runway I’m usually doing them on (26) is 3700 of available landing distance, and on 8 without the displaced threshold it is 4,400
Guilty_Raccoon_4773@reddit
I am not an instructor, so make your own reasoning.
I recommend to make more shallow turns. With 1200ft agl abeam or overhead the threshold you should be able to do so. Do not let the pressure force you to come too close to the runway.
It is more easy to keep shallow turns coordinated, especially in stressful situations like this. Shallow turns allow you to have more margin to the stall speed, which is vital when being close to the ground.
As well, shallow turns will consume less height - allowing you to spend more distance on the straight legs of your "traffic pattern", which gives you more time.
With 68 kias you will glide the furthest (in nil wind! With headwind on final you need to increase the speed to still achieve best glide), allowing you for more time.
I think that increasing somewhat beyond 68 kias is a good idea since below 68 kias you would find yourself on the backside of the drag regime. Better to aim for 73-75kias, in my opinion.
Be mindful, that the noise of the aircraft may be low and different at such operation.
Shallow turns demand for more room, so you need to allow for this.
I think you are free to set flaps as necessary, no?
When too low - 68kias and clean. When too high on final: more flaps and increased speed up to the white lines end (vfr).
You may correct for too high or too low of altitude by altering your "traffic pattern" - when too high you may extend the "downwind to base turn" even during the turn by making it less than 90° of heading change and thus achieving a longer final.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Instructor or not…I don’t care. You’ve had one of the best and most helpful responses possible on here, seriously!!!!! Thank you so much! Agreed on the shallow turns for sure, I’ll definitely aim for 73-75. Free to set flaps as necessary, yes! I like that, if low, 68 kias and clean, and if high, more flaps and increased speed to the edge of the white arc (my instructor lovessss this!). Thank you so much, sincerely.
flyfallridesail417@reddit
Lots of good comments here, and a few rather unhelpful ones (it’s luck, don’t do CPL-ASEL because it’s an easy bust etc). I’ll add a bit of perspective…in my opinion this is something every pilot should master well before commercial training, and practice long after their CPL checkride, because it’s both a good drill and a decent test of how well you’ve refined two fundamental skills that define stick & rudder piloting:
On any approach, not just the PO180, you should be continuously evaluating your energy state and flight path against optimal path & energy state given altitude, airspeed, position, density altitude, wind, turbulence, obstacles, and desired touchdown point. Every single second of the approach you should be evaluating: “too much energy? Too little?” This really needs to become second nature because there’s often a lot else going on with traffic, radio calls etc.
There are a ton of tools at your disposal to conserve/add or dispose of energy: 1. Airspeed 2. Flaps (these work both ways!!) 3. Slipping - straight ahead and in turns 4. Path control (extending or shortening downwind, rounding or squaring off corners, cutting base towards or away from runway, S-turns). 5. Power (or in a glider, modulating speed brakes).
The average modern fixed-pitch-prop power plane lets its pilots get lazy about energy monitoring and control because you can get grossly above or below your optimal energy state and fix it with nothing more than a burst of power or the drag of a windmilling prop. The average pilot forgets about the other 4 tools for controlling energy and doesn’t use them on a daily basis, and furthermore gets fairly lax about monitoring energy state, perhaps evaluating it only 3 times (about to turn base, on base, on final). Operating to a long paved runway with no real obstacles, with a reliable engine, it works out most of the time. But you take away use of the throttle, as in the PO180, and the deficiencies become apparent.
If you ever get a chance to get some time in a Stearman or a glider, these are fantastic for getting you really good at energy management. Till then, practice makes perfect whatever you’re flying…but know what you’re actually practicing. It’s not landing power off on a particular spot on the runway. It’s continually evaluating energy state and then using one or more of methods 1-4 listed above to conserve or reduce energy. Experiment using each one individually, and then using them together. You can make a ton of approaches at a quiet airport, you don’t even need to actually touch down, you can finish off each approach with a go around. Try some downwind approaches and see how that changes your perception of energy state. Seek out airports & runways with different sight pictures on the approach.
I’m fortunate that I’ve gotten a lot of practice in this over the last couple years as I live on a 2400 ft airstrip with big trees around, one way in, one way out, we have a couple of other marginal airstrips nearby, and I’ve also flown my Stinson 108 to a number of shortish, obstacle constrained mountain strips the last couple years. I still go to the 5000-ft local airport to hammer out patterns every month or two. It paid off last year when I had an engine failure (first partial, then total) a few miles away from a 2200’x20’ runway that I’d never landed at, which happened to be in a rainstorm with reduced visibility. I didn’t see the runway until the last second and had one shot from a high energy, close-in right base leg. By using a wide slipping turn all the way in I was able to put the mains on the second stripe and stop with plenty of room. If I wasn’t really familiar and comfortable with energy management in my plane using airspeed, flaps, slips & flight path variation, due to intentional frequent practice, it might have been a different story. Food for thought.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Thank you very much, I appreciate it!!!!!!! Very helpful!
idonthavemoney@reddit
Learn how to forward slip with lowest safest airspeed. You can do like 55 knots or something silly in a 72 in a full slip
Kemerd@reddit
Second, what I’ve found really helps is visualizing yourself in 3D space. When in the downwind, TURN YOUR HEAD like you’re trying to merge on the highway. LOOK at the runway. As you turn base, maintain your eye ON THE RUNWAY, not at your instruments.
This is not good advice for IFR, but try a few approaches where you “ignore” the numbers, your indicators. Get a feel for your energy state. Just like how you look outside for perfect steep turns, TRUST YOURSELF just a bit. Once you get the feel for it incorporate back the instrument scan.
The brain is VERY powerful, but you MUST provide it information. You must make a CONSCIOUS effort to LOOK OUTSIDE, and visualize ANY TIME YOU FLY (not just power off 180): what is my energy state? Where will I land if I lost power now?
A good practice will be landing on a specific point on the runway AT stall. That is to say run short field numbers, pick a specific spot (numbers, bars) and NAIL IT.
If you think about it, a power off 180 is going to be exactly this; the only difference is you’ll be at idle and thus will usually have to make a tighter turn.
Try to focus on your energy state and location in 3D space. Trust yourself. I know it sounds cheesy but become one with the plane, imagine yourself outside of it and where it exists in 3D space, the rest will usually follow I’ve found
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Totally true!! In IFR I was always looking inside obviously, and that spilled over to commercial a bit. My instructor sometimes covers my instruments (minus airspeed!) and that helps. I will work on looking outside, it is definitely frustrating!!!!!
Kemerd@reddit
To be fair, I was the same way post IFR.
Yes, you must make a conscious effort, it is super weird (because it almost feels like an interruption to your flow). Even if you feel like it's doing "nothing" you have to force your head to make the movement.
Best of luck on your training, I am still pursuing my commercial license myself, so I understand that grind!
brez@reddit
There's no "trick" to getting the power off 180, it's a lesson in judging / adjusting where you are to where you want to be.
Just practice them solo until you get it. I did about 50 before being able to reliably nail it consistently.
Only advice is, come in a tad high and use a slip to get down.
Kycrio@reddit
I did commercial in an arrow, those things glide like a brick so you have to cut in to the runway immediately. By contrast the 172 glides for days and looooves to float if you're even a little fast. I'd start focusing on reducing your speed, let yourself get slow and see what happens. If you're high and slow, no need to nosedive, hold a high pitch and you'll come right down without getting too fast. Also slips are great on low wind days, but be careful, if you have even a little headwind on final a slip can bring you down a lot more than you expect.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Once a put in a slip too long on a slightly higher wind day, I can guarantee I was SHORT! I really like what you said, thank you!!
jpcanty@reddit
Look your instructor isn’t gunna like hearing this and do not take the advise of some rando on reddit to teach how to fly, but… no one said the landing has to be good. Do everything to manage your energy leading up to the flare. Then if you have to much energy land flat as a pancake, to little energy flare for as long as humanly possible, got extra flaps, use them (don’t balloon). Keep it in ACS and they can say anything they want about your shitty landing.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Got it! My landings have been very smooth lately, I’ll remember that!
prometheus5500@reddit
Are you in SoCal? I love power off 180's and would gladly do a day of 180 practice if you're in the area.
Best advice is to focus on trying to use ground track and slips as the primary tools to get to your point. Flaps have two main uses, plus a somewhat sketchy but useful third, and it's useful to "save them" for the right time. Deployed early, they add drag and reduce glide distance. Deploy late (I'm talking in ground effect) and you can stretch a glide crazy far. And finally, raise them as you approach your point to help you sink onto your point.
Anyway, if you are in the SD area, like I said, I'd be glad to do a flight and work on them with you.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
I wish!!!!!! Thank you so much…though unfortunately northeast!!!!! My home airport is KDXR, Danbury municipal!!! I agree about the flaps, excellent point!
prometheus5500@reddit
Well good luck! Just practice. I make my students assess their energy all the way down. I constantly ask them "how's your energy? High? On energy? Low?" And then give them my feedback. "I agree/disagree. We are a bit high. Add a little slip" or whatever.
Avoid getting so high you need full flaps and a slip to get down. Avoid getting so low that Vg direct to the numbers isn't enough. Stay in the "middle" and CONSTANTLY assess if you are in that middle area where you can make adjustments either way. You can even experiment with intentionally coming in a little bit high. And then intentionally coming in a little bit low. Just to see what it's like to be low and at minimum energy or high and at maximum energy, and then continue to do more laps while trying to keep it in the middle of those two extremes.
As long as you stay vaguely in the middle, it gives you options all the way down to the ground. And then you can always extend or retract flaps as needed to add that little bit of float or remove a little bit of float to make the final adjustment as you get to your spot.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
That’s the problem precisely, I’m getting so high that I need an aggressive slip and flaps to get me down. I really have to figure out what is the middle, and not be in the extremes. That’s a great idea, thank you so much!!!!!! Sorry we’re on opposite coasts, I would’ve loved to fly with you!!!!!!!!!
WhiteoutDota@reddit
I know an instructor in Danbury, do you know a Matt?
Use forward slips before adding flaps. IMO flaps are a last resort "I know I am high in altitude and there is no other way to fix it". Forward slips are flexible, you can add it early, fix the altitude, and take it out without any penalty. Basically, flaps have to be timed correctly, whereas a forward slip doesn't.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
He was my private instructor!! I am at a different school now, but he was a wonderful instructor!!!!!!!! Great tips, thank you!!!!!!!
LostPilot517@reddit
Know where your wind is and how it is going to affect your glide. Stay clean and hold altitude until you hit the best glide speed. It is easier to stay a little higher and faster until landing is assured, and lose energy, than it is to wish you had more energy to make your landing point.
Again the key here is knowing ground speed and the effect of the wind on your downwind, base, final. Power off 180 is much more of a descending turn, rather than squared off legs.
Tricks to lose energy include forward slips, flaps, s-turns, squaring up pattern to increase track mileage.
You can always touch down a little faster, but your limit on how slow you can touchdown to extend your glide.
Lancair-driver@reddit
In a Liberty XL2 cross the threshold at 80 knots at about 20ft. You’ll land on the 1000ft marker
SomeCessnaDriver@reddit
At my best this was probably an 80% maneuver for me, I'd screw it up 1/5 times or so.
Just don't come up short... come in with a bit more height than you think you need, add drag and forward slip as necessary when you're very short final. When you get there, just put the plane down, don't try to grease it or anything.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Right now I’m screwing up 80% of the time! And I only have 2 months! I’m usually not short, but often too high. I’ll sure try!!! Thank you
UziWitDaHighTops@reddit
Is your descent rate consistent, or do you start shallow to try and buy yourself time/distance then realize you’re way too high on short final and dive down? I’d say point it at the number as soon as you’ve turned and if your speed starts creeping up enter a slip or drop some flaps.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
That’s exactly me!!! I realize I’m way too high when I’m well into base and almost about to turn final. I know I’m not low always, I just don’t know how high I am.
UziWitDaHighTops@reddit
You have to realize mistakes are free when you’re practicing. Your engine isn’t actually out, if you come up short you can throttle up and try again. I thought I was buying myself security via altitude because most of my experience was as a backseater doing max rate descents into Afghanistan or Iraq with 10k’+ runways so we could float for eternity to bleed speed, but in a 172 in a non-threat environment, all you’re doing with extra altitude is causing longer rollouts and further touchdown points. Don’t be afraid to come up short and say “dang, that definitely would not work, let’s adjust and try again!” If you succeed 100% of the time, you’re not really trying. Make mistakes and learn from them.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
What you did prior to this in Afghanistan sounds so impressive!!!!! That’s exactly right, I view my altitude as the only security I have, this I’m too high. Mistakes are free, that’s a hard one for me to learn!!!! But yes, they are when practicing.
UziWitDaHighTops@reddit
Thanks man. I worked in Special Operations so I was fortunate to have amazing pilots that were highly qualified. I always felt safe, even when we were taking fire aha. We backed each other up and knew everyone’s role, responsibilities, callouts, tasks, and procedures, and it was EXPECTED to call each other out when something was “dumb, dangerous, or different” as the motto goes. It was fun to have 0G or negative Gs on approach doing max rate descents and other fun maneuvers on approach to avoid surface-to-air threats. Stateside, we’d practice every type of possible scenario and how to bring the plane down safely. That being said, even the best have their moments. On occasions we’d have to add power or call “knock it off”, meaning no questions asked the PIC would add power, climb out, and try again. During the “try again” portion the person who called knock it off would verbalize their sight picture, thoughts, and evidence as to what was going wrong and why it necessitated pulling out. We’d do a long pattern to give ample time for discussion and everyone would give their thoughts for each stage of the previous approach. The knock it off call was extremely rare (I only ever called it once), but always honored. If the call was determined to be in error it was usually because of poor communication and callouts from the front, meaning it was still justified. As in, even if the approach was stellar, if the PIC wasn’t verbalizing the checklist, it was assumed the item was missed, therefore, unsafe to continue. Example; not verbalizing “three down, locked, green”. If I didn’t hear that I could call go around then say “gear wasn’t down and locked.” Even if it was, they were wrong for not saying it. Anyhow, I say all of this to convey that thinking something isn’t the same as saying it, so as a SIC feel free to have a stream of consciousness with your instructor. You can never over-communicate, but you can definitely under-communicate. If you turn base to final and say “I’m too low, I won’t make it”, your instructor might say “keep going, try, you can make it”, or they may say “agreed, add power, try again.” When you’re practicing you have two people, two brains, use them.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Your story is incredibly admirable, really!!!! You’ve also had some amazing tips, thank you so much!!!!!! Absolutely fascinating!!!!
SomeCessnaDriver@reddit
Don't be afraid to add flaps and forward slip if you think you're going to be too high. Your aiming point should be just before the nominated touchdown point (e.g. if you want to touch down on the thousand footers, aim for the end of the centerline stripe before the thousand footers). Make sure that point stays fixed in your windshield, that means you're heading right for it. Drive the plane down to it at the appropriate airspeed, do a bit of a round-out over the aiming point, then just plop it down on the spot you want.
Good luck! It sucks but you'll get there.
ParagPa@reddit
I’m about to start my commercial, in a 182 that I own. Once I put in full flaps, it drops like a rock. I also just added vortex generators, so I can get a but slower due to reduced stall speed. Hoping all this helps with the PO 180, assuming I try to keep a bit of extra height and energy, and dump it all prior to touch down. We'll see!
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
It does, thank you!
cazzipropri@reddit
Calibrate how long the plane floats once you enter approach ground effect at your reference speed e.g., 70 kts and you pull power to idle.
Do multiple experiments, you'll see that you'll get to a consistent number, e.g., 250 ft.
Then, when performing the maneuver, you aim at 250 ft ahead of the threshold.
You will aim at entering ground effect at the exact ref speed there. You'll already be at idle. You will float exactly how much you calibrated.
The_Big_Obe@reddit
Practice. It's about the game.
homeinthesky@reddit
As the DPE I used to send my students to says, “a good bit of skill, planning head, and a significant amount of luck”
slbxhaiisnd@reddit
you dont. Ask you instructor to do 10 in a row and im 100% certain they will miss AT LEAST one. It’s a game of chance especially in variable or gusting wind. Just try to get as good as you can by practicing often in different conditions.
intrusive0thoughts@reddit
As soon as I read this post “You don’t” was exactly what I said to myself. It’s just one of those things especially in a high wing where you can always just catch some bad luck and bust the standards. If you consistently preform to standards for the large majority of the checkride and your DPE is a normal person you’ll pass.
the_devils_advocates@reddit
This is half the reason I skipped a commercial single. Didn’t want a bust for a stupid reason or because of a DPE that wasn’t realistic or having a bad day.
mdang104@reddit
Come in slightly high, and manage your energy with flaps and slip. That with practice and consistency.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
I have been overshooting for a while, for like 3 I undershot a couple weeks ago, and then straight back to overshooting!!! I will start looking outside more consciously, I’m probably still looking inside to some degree.
ltcterry@reddit
In a 172 a PO180 is not horribly different than a normal though smaller/tighter pattern. Don't make it some crash dive to the airport. Or a cross country excursion.
Having the same downwind spacing is very important.
Think about the total drag curve. The bottom is best glide. Best glide is important when you are trying to get somewhere. In a PO180 you are already "there." Fly a speed that makes sense.
What happens to performance if you fly faster than Vg? It decreases. What happens to performance if you fly slower than Vg? It also decreases. Vg is the best you can ever hope to get, so if you're not going to make it, there's no reserve in your back pocket...
Abeam the touchdown point when you reduce power, pitch for Vg+10. Fly the pattern at this speed. If you need improved performance it's available by slowing down.
It's OK to "be a little high" during this maneuver, but "a little high" on downwind is a larger amount than on base which is larger than on final. You need a little potential energy in your back pocket, but you need to work it off.
It's OK to slip in the turn to base. It's OK to turn 135 degrees on base instead of 90 if you need to cut the corner. It's OK to slip in the base to final turn.
No flaps until late in the process.
If the wind is different than last time, you've really got to think about it. In a strong wind, a high ground speed on downwind turns into a particularly low ground speed on final. This will trick you into coming down faster/soon on downwind.
Vg for the glider I instruct in is 48 knots. Yet we fly the pattern at 55-60. For good reasons.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Vg in mine is 68…I’ll fly the pattern at about 75-80 then. That’s not a bad idea, thank you!!!! I like itn
confusedguy1212@reddit
Other already said you don’t and that’s all true. One thing I think helps to keep in your back pocket is final flap application. Limit yourself to mostly lift flaps (flaps 20 in most 172s) and only apply flaps 30 or even 40 when you’re certain you are ready to become a brick and settle shortly after to nail your touchdown point.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
I learned that last week! Though this week it was like I unlearned the entirety of commercial and simply was overhsootingb
Speaker-Designer@reddit
90 percent of the time i come in high. You can always loose altitude but can never gain it. One last ditch effort that has consistently worked for me. If you are full flaps and in a slip and still a little high, nose down and accept the higher airspeed. Aim significantly before your touchdown point. Flare out even 500 feet before your touch down point and ride out the flare. Dont be afraid of a firm landing as long as it is not unsafe. I see a lot of people that are on track to hit their target but end up pulling up to make the touch down more smooth and fly right passed it. Do not use this trick every time. Try to avoid and just know its there if you need it. It is also heavily dependent on the plane you are in. This works in an archer. May not in a 172.
This only works if you’re like 25 feet too high. Any higher and you’ll just float right passed your point due to the excess speed. As for any advice you get on the internet, discuss it with your instructor first before attempting.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
My instructor actually does this in a 172…it’s his favorite!!!!
Motifated@reddit
I constantly was able to nail this one, but at the time we were allowed to do forward slips with full flaps.
ATrainDerailReturns@reddit
? As opposed to what?
Motifated@reddit
I see airplanes now have placards saying no slips with flaps
ATrainDerailReturns@reddit
Really? What airplanes?
Motifated@reddit
I’ve seen it specifically in the 172N
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Me too!!!!!!! I had slipped it a few times with 40 degrees, though it sure says “avoid slips with full flaps”. I have to look into the 172 R, that’s what I fly now, but I usually do slip it with the full 30 degrees.
K2Nomad@reddit
They can tail stall with flaps in a slip
ATrainDerailReturns@reddit
Wow that sucks for 180s lol
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
The forward slip is your friend
CupNo1947@reddit
I think it comes down to the wind. If you have a glass panel that displays the wind use that to your advantage. Know how it will effect your ground speed. (tailwinds, cross wind, headwind etc) use that to predict when you make your turns. I teach my guys to aim for two stripes before the 1000 footers and ride ground effect. Watching that wind is crucial to nailing them everytime!
sevettjr@reddit
If you’ve extended flaps, you’re in the flare, and you see you’re going to float past the mark, you can retract the flaps and kill the float at the mark. Another trick you’d rather not use, but it works.
HorrifiedPilot@reddit
I struggled w/ power off 180s a ton until I went up solo in the pattern and did em for an hour and it clicked
Thiccy_ape@reddit
I personally like to be a touch high and fast depending on the wind and literally just do an aggressive slip to land, that’s the only way I’ve consistently gotten it and eliminated the floating, the other trick I used, I knew the examiner would let me pick the point, and I always used the stripe adjacent to the papi, that way I could just follow it down lmao
gritsource@reddit
Trim IMMEDIATELY with the power off. Suss out how much you typically change the trim wheel for configuration changes. For instance in a 172XP I flew, going from cruise to approach power simply required grabbing the trim wheel at the top and moving it down until my fingers couldn’t go further. Adjust to taste. That hack saved me much distraction.
Mithster18@reddit
Look at your 1/3 aiming point and adjust your approach path as required
bhalter80@reddit
Plan to slip a lot, that way you can counter almost any wind you get by slipping aggressively so you cross the threshold at 50' on Vref and ready to land on the 1000 foot marks.
Swimming_Way_7372@reddit
Don't put the gear down until you're sure you're on the correct glide path ( i waited until at least base). Then when it looks damn good, add the last bit of flaps and slam her down. It doesn't have to be soft, just safe. At least thats how I did it.
changgerz@reddit
have you tried gitting gud? also maybe try not thinking about it so much in terms of downwind/base/final like a normal pattern and more of a fluid path that you can shorten or lengthen as needed
bcr76@reddit
I went up right before my checkride and did a bunch to get a feel for the plane and winds. Only advice I have lol
Fluid-Cattle-5835@reddit
Most students I see seem to be slow to turn base, then think they’re low so they point straight at the threshold, then turn to align with the runway quite low (a bit sketchy) and then proceed to float and float well past they’re touchdown point.
What I recommend is this,
Turn base quickly with a descent bank angle as if its an engine failure. (Ensuring you’ll be on the high side to start)
*Use you path to the rwy to control your energy, not just flaps and slips.
Most depictions of a p180 show a steady rate of turn all the way around meaning you have to stay in the turn until really low. If you square off the base to final turn the last part of the approach is much more stable and easier to judge because its basically the same short final sight picture you’re already use to.
Flapaflapa@reddit
It's not so much a nail these steps and it works. It's a "feel" that looks about right for the whole maneuver. Then plan on being a little bit high/have extra energy and know you are going to have a slip at the end to tidy everything up a bit. Sometimes it's barely a slip, sometimes it's a whole boot full.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
That’s what I think I’m missing, that it’s a “feel”. Also, my sight picture is not right on base, so what I think is normal is actually a little to very high!
Flapaflapa@reddit
Go out and do 20 of them. Don't plan on touching down. Just a low pass climb up and do it again see what worked what didn't.
Flying is fun to up and play with the plane.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
I will! Thank you
182RG@reddit
Practice altitude, timing, visuals, settings, and feel over and over again. Understand adjustments for wind.
dummyinstructor@reddit
Gotta admit the po180 during the checkride is 90% skill 10% luck. Hard to get them consistent. I was about 80-85% on mine before my CSEL, nowhere near perfect. If you asked me to do them now, I'd probably be less probable to hit it now than before my checkride.
Bradders59@reddit
Practice , practice. Pull the power at exactly the same altitude (1k’ in my case), same position (abeam the numbers) and same distance from the runway. I use stripes on my Archer’s wing to approximate the right distance when the runway is under them. You can use electrical tape or something if you need to. Cessna struts also work. Then its airspeed/flap/angle of bank management. DO NOT deploy flaps unless you need to. You WILL nail it. One of the most satisfying (and potentially useful)maneuvers.
MajesticSky6223@reddit (OP)
Right now I think the fast that they’re in a plateau has gotten to my head a bit, especially with my checkride in 8 weeks now. That sounds like a good idea with the flaps, I learned a harsh lesson with that last week when I put 30 degrees too early, and I did make the runway, but it was a lovely 500 feet short! T
Bradders59@reddit
An instructor told me flaps bring the landing point closer. Just keep that in mind.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I am a commercial student, checkride in 8 weeks. My lazy 8s are almost consistent, my chandelles are consistent, my steep turns are nearly consistently within ACS, accelerated stall almost there, all other stalls and slow flight has been pretty good. Steep spiral is improving drastically, and we just started 8s on pylons (so nervous about them!!!!). For the bad news, I am seemingly and embarrassingly incapable of the power off 180, I guess I’m not judging on base if I am high or low, thus I’m screwing up. I fly a Cessna 172 (180 HP). Something needs to change, and soon since I don’t have that much time. If any of you have some tips for improving these, I really do need them! I need a consistent approach to these for sure…and for the most part I’m overshooting my point!
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