Buying a Plane. Need a second pair of eyes on this listing.
Posted by dundermiffles@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 64 comments
Hi guys!
I am slowly looking at planes to purchase. $150K all in budget (for IFR time building and recreational), paying in cash. Saw a 1983 Warrior II for sale, was a flight school trainer before.
Everything looks good except for the fact that it needs an engine overhaul like basically immediately, and I am highly likely to revamp the avionics completely, they are very dated even if IFR capable (no GPS for instance). So I’m estimating a $50k immediate cost after purchase.
$80K asking price. I feel like this is really high right? Or is the used market just this bad? To be fair, I am having a hard time finding anything for any cheaper. Wonder if I’m just impatient or if the used market is truly this bad.
I like trainers because of all the inspections it required and logbooks reflect that, but I dislike trainers because… trainers. I believe this reduces resale value and TT is high 7000 hours. Please sanity check me.
AdEquivalent927@reddit
Check out a Bonanza, more capable aircraft. Probably better avionics. We purchased a P model back in 95 it has been a great plane. I agree on the advice on staying away from trainer aircraft.
TxAggieMike@reddit
A former training needs to have a complete and extremely thorough pre purchase inspection by a competent and experienced mechanic you have hired.
Even if the ad said “annual done recent” or something like that, you want your own person to do more than a once over.
Training airplanes can be a good purchase, but many systems are likely abused and we are and tear may be found from “not bad” to “how is this thing still airworthy??”.
Make sure to use a well crafted buy/sell contract that includes right to inspect and how discrepancies will be addressed. A common way is seller pay for airworthy repairs, nearly airworthy items are a negotiated split, and you pay for cosmetic items.
Also use an escrow service. They are available for cheap and aid with managing the money in the transaction. It shows you’re serious about the purchase because dollars are there. And seller doesn’t get the dollars until the final number is agreed to and all contract conditions and repairs are done.
AOPA and others have many resources and knowledge to share about purchasing a used airplane. I recommend reading everything you can get your hands on.
Last, make sure you find out if there are any sales and use tax considerations. I had a friend get wrapped around the axle with the Texas Comptroller because sales tax was owed on his airplane and it wasn’t paid. Not only were there penalties for the airplane, but it triggered an audit on his business.
LateralThinkerer@reddit
This. Our flying club got an Archer that had a 20+ year old lien on it from several states away, owed for some repairs long ago. Took forever to get it straightened out since all the parties had either died or scattered to the winds (though we never got audited).
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
Thank you so much! You’re always so thoughtful and thorough in your responses on this sub! Appreciate the write up! This is very helpful.
kiwi_love777@reddit
And WING SPAR AD. Check to see if that’s been done.
Quirky-Advisor9323@reddit
Everything he says.
I’d be pretty thorough about inspecting for any corrosion in the airframe. I dislike planes based in coastal states for this reason. Give me Oklahoma, Nevada, Arizona etc all day long. No to California, Florida et al. Since you’re already prepared to overhaul the engine, that’s not a factor, but corrosion in the airframe can murder your purchase decision à la Attila the Hun.
kytulu@reddit
To be fair, I haven't seen any airframe corrosion on any of the planes at my Florida-based flight school. Rod ends, fuel sumps, engine cylinders, inspection panels, and hardware are another story.
Quirky-Advisor9323@reddit
Of the 3 failed prebuys I had, 2 were California planes with corrosion. California pilots will even argue with a straight face that “a little bit of corrosion isn’t a big deal.” Meanwhile, there are hundreds of hangared planes in Oklahoma that are 50 years old with literally zero corrosion. I don’t advise any new owner to even bother looking at planes in coastal areas. Prebuys run $1500 a pop these days. Not worth it.
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
No I think I am agreeing with the sentiment here. Appreciate you chiming! Really helpful insight
OriginalJayVee@reddit
I agree. You should give him a Dundee Award!
TxAggieMike@reddit
Is that ”another shrimp on the barbie”?
derekbox@reddit
Have you considered buying into a flying club or a partnership?
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
I have and its not out of the option. I just have wishes to customize the plane more than I think a partnership would concede to.
derekbox@reddit
Where are you located (roughly)? Do you already have your PPL?
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
KBVY, yes I’m a PPL!
derekbox@reddit
I'm going to shoot you a message
CaptMcMooney@reddit
buy a plane for flying not repairing, 150k should get you something ready to go.
do not buy something ready for fixing. that plane will end up costing you almost 200k to get what you want
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
Agh. Yeah, this is what I am very nervous about. It seems well kept but who knows really
CaptMcMooney@reddit
the engine overhaul will cost atleast 40k, prop 5-15k shrug, avionics probably 15 - 50k+
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
The engine in that Commander is just about timed out. Look for an airplane with > 500 smoh, you should be able to put 3-500 hrs on and not have to pay for an engine to sell it. That's what I did.
aljst1@reddit
Doing an io540 will be on the 60k+ range. Ask me how I know :)
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Yeah, that was my point.
Lopsided-Profile-662@reddit
Commanders are incredibly heavy and sluggish too, it wouldn't be my first choice of airplane just for the cost of avgas alone to power that IO-540.
CaptMcMooney@reddit
this is true, i just picked the first one under 150k
aljst1@reddit
Great plane and great price but definetly not a trainer !
MockCheckrideDotCom@reddit
Yep, my thoughts too. Engine could be closer to $50k after r/r. Overhauls have gone absolutely parabolic in the last few years.
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
Thanks! That’s what I figured. Thanks for the sanity check!
RecentAmbition3081@reddit
If it’s to good to be true, run away
0O00OO0OO0O0O00O0O0O@reddit
You have a 150k budget and you're looking at an 80k plane that needs 150k in work to get it where you want it?
Just buy a plane that's got what you need now and fly.
Over-Seaweed114@reddit
I own 1/3 of a piper Cherokee 140 with the 180 horsepower upgraded engine. My partners and unused the plane for our training and time building, glass cockpit avionics, digitized engine instruments and still has time left before overhaul is needed. New interior and 7k$ put into then plane for us to sell it.
If you want to see the listing, ill send you the link. She trested all of us good and shes in great shape. Her name is Evelyn.
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
Sure, send me it!
Over-Seaweed114@reddit
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=PIPER&model=CHEROKEE+140%2F180&listing_id=2444993&s-type=aircraft
N70968@reddit
How many hours on the airframe? For an immediate overhaul and basic avionics that seems a bit high, but how do you know it needs one? Are the compressions bad or is it just all hours?
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
1900 hours. Definitely needs one for a Warrior. /:
N70968@reddit
The flight school would have to replace at TBO, but it's not a requirement for part 91. If the engine is getting good compressions, has a clean boroscope, and no other issues, then it could conceivably go for another 1000 hours. It really depends on the engine's condition. There are engines that require overhaul at 500 hours, and there are some that only need it at 4000 hours. (Mike Busch's books/Ask-the-A&P podcasts are a good resource here.)
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
That’s definitely fair! I did speak with the owner and she outright said it needs a replacement unfortunately/:
N70968@reddit
That makes the asking price a bit high in my opinion.
Dalibongo@reddit
Downtime sucks. A lot.
Engine? At least 6 weeks and $40,000.
Prop? At least 6 weeks and $15,000
Complete IFR panel with modern gps? At least 6 weeks $60,000.
So the $80,000 airplane is really a $215k airplane in disguise. Ask me how I know?
I’m going through this with my 182 I just purchased for 160k. Engine and prop were new but the new avionics suite I’m putting in is about $91k.
The facts are that airplanes just cost money and unless you want a beat up trainer or a two seater you’re going to spend 150k minimum to get something you can actually use.
flybot66@reddit
no, no, no. Never buy a trainer, especially if it is a Piper... The wing attach hardware is very suspect and will cause you no end of grief even if inspected.
Beargrease28@reddit
The most expensive planes are the cheap planes. If it made sense to fix it and have it be worth more, that would already be done. Find one that is somebody's baby that has put more money into it than the market will bear. That will be the value.
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
This is such a poetic way to put it haha I like the analogy. Thanks for your input!
csl512@reddit
You want a Warrior IIII?
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
You selling?
csl512@reddit
What would a second pair of eyes (Is) look like on a Warrior II?
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
omg hahaha
pilotjlr@reddit
If it needs an engine and avionics, and maybe a spar eddy current test, you’ll have a really nice plane after a several months to a year of work, and way over budget. Particularly if you’re ready to train and build time now, a project plane is only going to frustrate you while racking up bills.
DDX1837@reddit
When you're done, you will own a $220,000 Piper Warrior. So that's not a good idea.
There's an '83 Warrior on trade-a-plane that is in about the same condition as the one you describe for $90,000.
Or there's a '95 with 500SMOH and really nice panel for $149,000. I'd say that's a better way to spend your $150k.
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=PIPER&model=WARRIOR+III&listing_id=2446978&s-type=aircraft
nem636@reddit
When purchasing an aircraft that is in need of an Engine Overhaul, as yourself if you are ready for unforeseen expenses, 6 months of hanger rent, and the frustration of not being able to fly your plane.
All of those things have a dollar value. The hanger is easy to calculate, your frustration is not, the amount that you will pay to rent an aircraft while yours is under repair is also able to be calculated.
TLDR, don't buy a plane in need of an OH if you want to fly anytime soon.
Hfyvr1@reddit
There are basically 3 things that are really expensive when it comes to a plane: Engine, Avionics and Paint. Try to get at least one of them. The engine is pretty much a fixed cost based on whatever the quote is from a reputable shop and is the easiest to budget for.
Avionics you can easy fall into the money pit spending wayyyy more money than you anticipated and have lots of downtime once they dive in and fond this and that wrong with the wiring.
Paint just sucks, the plane would be down for a long time, you end up replacing many fairings, need all new hardware during reassembly, re-rigging of all the flight controls, etc.
So to any seer your question the engine is be least worried about. Avionics is a money pit and painting a plane is horrible. How’s the paint on this one?
saml01@reddit
30k. Not a penny more.
MoreSpoiler@reddit
Lol
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
hahaha love this!
MoreSpoiler@reddit
I’d look at a PA24 or C180 for that budget
JAMONLEE@reddit
Engine time is generally depreciation proof, except for the time your plane is down while the engine is overhauled. All about how good of a deal you’re getting vs time left on the engine.
You will always pay more (approximately 50%) for avionics than you will recoup in a sale. Buy a plane with the panel already done and let the seller eat the depreciation (it’s it’s already depreciated)
Airframe condition is the single most important item, everything else is fixable. You want no corrosion and no major damage. The aircraft needs to be be airworthy and likely to remain airworthy.
falcopilot@reddit
$50K will get you an engine -or- a meh refresh on avionics.
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
Ah terrible prospects. Thanks for the input!
Senior-Storm-7119@reddit
Pass. That’s a $100k+ and 12-18 months of being down to get it the way you want it
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
Yeah sounds terrible. Thanks for the input!
TxAggieMike@reddit
If you want this to be a capable IFR platform, you will need more than just an IFR navigator.
You also need a solid autopilot.
The difference between the two in workload when flying in the goo is significantly huge.
For a comparison, this panelcost our co-owner group $75,000. Aircraft was a round dial with a GNS480, basic transponder, very old AP before. Now it flies like a modern airliner.
ltcterry@reddit
Traditional advice is to buy the panel you want in an airplane you want. Otherwise you'll have a ton of money in an airplane you won't be able to fly for many months as you wait. And wait. And wait.
Buy something you can live with for a couple years at least.
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
Thank you so much! Just what I needed to hear.
megasaurass@reddit
Find out where you will get it overhauled and get a quote/time estimate if you can. Could be much more expensive than you think, and it could also be months of downtime for the engine and then avionics. The engine overhaul alone could easily reach 40-50k, and avionics on top of that. Then think about insurance and hangar/tiedown costs. It will almost always be more expensive than you think.
dundermiffles@reddit (OP)
This makes sense to me. Thanks for your input!
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hi guys!
I am slowly looking at planes to purchase. $150K all in budget (for IFR time building and recreational), paying in cash. Saw a 1983 Warrior II for sale, was a flight school trainer before.
Everything looks good except for the fact that it needs an engine overhaul like basically immediately, and I am highly likely to revamp the avionics completely, they are very dated even if IFR capable (no GPS for instance). So I’m estimating a $50k immediate cost after purchase.
$80K asking price. I feel like this is really high right? Or is the used market just this bad? To be fair, I am having a hard time finding anything for any cheaper. Wonder if I’m just impatient or if the used market is truly this bad.
I like trainers because of all the inspections it required and logbooks reflect that, but I dislike trainers because… trainers. I believe this reduces resale value and TT is high 7000 hours. Please sanity check me.
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
Questions about this comment? Please see this wiki post before contacting the mods.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.