I didn’t understand the hype until I started driving an SUV for work. Now I’m in the market for one. It really is nice, especially as you get older and the roads here are fucking huge compared to what I had back home so it works out.
I agree with this when it comes to large sedans like an S class or even something slightly smaller than that. I do think there is still a market for sportier sedans though.
Because the driving dynamics change significantly for that “horizontal space”. Not knocking anybody’s likes, but to simply say why not go to taller for the same foot space ignores the fundamental differences between what it means to drive a sedan vs an SUV. I prefer a low and wide ride, that’s just my preference. Try taking some corners at high speed in a tall SUV without breaking and let us know how that goes. Different sizes are good at different things. As a driving enthusiast, I’m personally saddened by the continued death of sedans.
The large majority of drivers don't care about driving dynamics. Try talking IRL about "taking corners at high way speeds" and watch them fall asleep. Talk to them about how many screens the interior has and they'll rave about how "luxurious"it feels.
If I may be extremely elitist for a second, in some ways the masses are just very stupid and don’t know what they would enjoy most themselves. Your point about screens is a perfect example. They’re literally just wowed by how much space is consumed by pixels. That’s it. On its own that determines almost zero percent of how much you’ll enjoy owning and driving the car 2-3 years after purchase.
I think this extends to comfort in a sedan vs suv. People look at or get in an suv, they think oh! More vertical space = more comfort. This is just not true at all, as the shape of an suv requires a more upright seating position (which some people like but most do not) as well as suspension that needs to be designed to limit the excessive body roll caused by the increased height. You say people don’t care about driving dynamics which is absolutely true, but the car does need to be at minimum maneuverable and no matter how you slice it, a sedan can get away with softer suspension with fewer drawbacks. People end up sitting in upright seats with stiffer suspension in suvs, and I’m not sure they realize those drawbacks when they’re distracted by wow so many headroom so much screens. I have a hard time believing most people don’t prefer moderately soft suspension with less body roll. Space and screens are easy to look at and get excited about for anyone with 1 second of thought. Noticing seat position and suspension compromises is much more difficult for most people.
>This is just not true at all, as the shape of an suv requires a more upright seating position (which some people like but most do not)
That's just objectively wrong. Not only is a more vertical seating position significantly more ergonomic and better for your back long term, but it's also a lot easier to get in and out of, which is a HUGE reason why crossovers are so popular these days. They're a lot easier for seniors to enter and exit, and the higher loading floor makes loading in car seats and strollers significantly easier.
Cars that sit higher up (crossover, SUV) are literally easier for people with limited mobility to get into since it doesn't require bending down or bending over.
I recently rented a Renault Clio and being used to my Rav4 I banged my head against the top doorway edge multiple times (over the course of several days) while getting into the vehicle.
I guess I maybe underrate the number of people with mobility issues, there must be plenty of people who are moving around fine! It’s of course a huge factor for many though.
The front doors of my 00 Camry feel pretty generous even though I’m tall ish and new Camrys have gotten even taller, the (lack of) seat height is the only real factor for mid sizes
> requires a more upright seating position (which some people like but most do not)
Anecdotal evidence here but in my own experience, this is the opposite of reality. Every time I have someone get into one of the various cars I've had, if they are someone who only drive SUVs or trucks, they comment on how they don't enjoy the seating position, whether it's getting in and out or whether it's because it's low to the ground.
I like driving a car but most of the people I interact with daily would rather not. Of those I know who do drive a car and not an SUV, some do it simply out of frugality, and would likely choose the SUV if all costs remained the same.
I have a project sports car for that. I daily an explorer sport.
...also I'm tall and have a bad back so a truck/suv is much easier to get in and out of.
i own a sedan with great driving dynamics. that makes me the minority, the vast majority of car buyers are scared of the gas pedal and corners. if the engine makes a noise that's terrifying to them, so they merge onto the highway slow enough that it doesn't make any noises. they'll notice the difference in trunk space and missing third row, never notice the handling.
I would argue that the majority of car buyers are not dumb enough to drive dangerously on public roads with other people around, and that's the reason why the handling differences are pretty much irrelevant.
I've driven great handling cars, and I have driven on a track (with my daily driver, not anything special). My prius and van handle fine for any kind of public-road driving I feel safe doing. In fact, they handle much better than the sports couple I had in the 90's.
Would a sport sedan handle better? No doubt - but to push it hard enough to notice a significant difference, I would need to be putting myself and others at risk on public roads where 40K americans die every year from car accidents (including 7K pedestrians).
Cargo room isn't the only advantage of more vertical space. You still get increased ride height, easier ingress and egress, and greater suspension travel in a fastback SUV.
That's like saying someone who cares about driving dynamics would always pass up a sedan and go straight for a small, light coupe. I mean, sure, but there are reasons some people prefer a sedan to a coupe, and there are reasons some (many) people prefer an SUV to a sedan.
I would wager that for 90%+ of people, 90%+ of their driving consists of going from point A to point B within a city or suburb. That is to say, they're commuting to and from work, or from other daily tasks, like getting groceries, picking up the kids from school or practice, visiting mom and pop. What they're not doing on the daily, or weekly, or ever, is carving up a canyon (and if you were, get the coupe, not the sedan).
I'm not someone who prefers an SUV over a sedan, but I'm not going to pretend that I don't know why people choose SUVs and that those reasons don't make sense. I know why. You know why. The reasons are valid, even if they're not for you.
Dude. 99% of people don’t care about driving dynamics. People can drive miles in a flat tire, not notice blown shocks, etc. the difference between an suv and sedan is totally lost.
Yep. While it's true that most people don't care about cornering and g-forces, after driving hatchbacks and wagons for 10 years I can't not notice how the added height (and maybe weight) of the SUVs aren't easily masked. I drove the RSQ8 and I drive a regular Q8 (company car), but I miss the agility of my previous S4. Going to get back to a wagon when the lease on the Q8 is up.
> these big ass sedans are practically as big width and length wise
Height-wise, even. I was driving my Atlas behind a new 7 series and noticed the trunk was at the same height as my hood. Absolutely massive sedan
See the history of fuel economy requirements vs cars and light trucks. The car companies pushed SUV’s because they qualify as “light trucks” and had more lenient fuel economy requirements.
The rest of the world is following suit despite CAFE, strangely. I know that doesn't fit your narrative.
I love how Redditors insist that consumers are just nitwits who only buy what they see on the tee-vee, and that if companies just advertised sedans more everyone would go back to them.
>The rest of the world is following suit despite CAFE, strangely. I know that doesn't fit your narrative.
Sure but the US is the only place where V8s are a regular thing in SUVs. Over here in Germany 99% of the SUVs and Crossovers have a 2L 4-cylinder.
People want them. They buy them. Along comes CAFE with the intent to improve fuel economy - but they obviously can't just make entire popular market segments suddenly impossible to build, that's not good for consumers or companies (both of which need to be okay with CAFE for it to exist), so instead, they make a carveout for a segment that people like.
People continue to like that segment and companies continue to grow into it as consumers demand it, technology enables it, and regulation encourages it.
It's always been about what the market wanted - CAFE might have amplified or accelerated it, but people were buying SUVs like crazy since even before CAFE became a thing. Yes, doing what the market wants also makes corporations money, congratulations, and yes, that's an interest lawmakers have as well. But ultimately it wouldn't *matter* what CAFE did unless consumers were interested in buying SUVs and CUVs.
lol so true. Reddit does this for so many things, and they don’t realize that their demographic (younger, poorer, less social) is not a trendsetting one. Let’s also remember that most Redditors can’t actually afford to buy a new car and if they do, it’s going to be the cheapest one.
SUVs are just preferred by most people refuse most people don’t care about how well a car can handle in the corners. In fact, most people want quiet, comfortable cars that can fit an entire Costco worth of food in the back while still having enough room for two strollers. People here live in a bubble.
Only having 1 car is for NPCs
SUV for long haul trips and for cargo space
6spd manual sports car for spirited driving
EV for daily driving
ELITE COMBO. NPC if you don’t have this. Cars can’t be more than 3 years old either or else they’re trash.
I drove 30 hours in my e90 6speed rwd bmw 😭😭😭 ngl i was kinda trolling cause if you have a lot of siblings like me having 2 sport sedans + 1 sports suv is goated like the x3m
I cant justify to my mom why we are buying a m3 sedan 😂😂😂. I can justify trading in our honda pilot for a newer suv. Besides my e90 bmw is fun enough till i can upgrade. Tho maybe ur right in the x3 being a bit much.
There are a multitude of factors including crumbling road infrastructure necessitating more robust suspension than typical sedans provide, the wealth gap that means younger buyers need a single jack-of-all-trades vehicle as opposed to owning a commuter and a weekend vehicle, arthritis in the elder population who prefer a taller vehicle that's easier to get in and out of, you know, and finally the M.A.D. factor of everyone wanting a taller vehicle to see over traffic adequately once SUVs became the majority. CAFE is just the reason it happened in America first with Ford's watershed moment of axing all their sedans, without that it probably would've kicked the can down the road and given sedans another decade of prevalance.
> CAFE is just the reason it happened in America first with Ford's watershed moment of axing all their sedans, without that it probably would've kicked the can down the road and given sedans another decade of prevalance.
[The decline was happening well before sedans started getting discontinued *en masse*. You're mixing up cause and effect.](http://mercercapital.com/content/uploads/Screenshot-2023-06-19-at-4.36.34-PM.png)
Yes, the decline was happening as attributed to everything I wrote before mentioning CAFE, whose 35.5 MPG Fuel Efficiency Standards were implemented in 2012 along with the approval of additional future 54.5MPG Fuel Efficiency Standards, right when you can see sedan sales dropping sharply and SUV sales spiking. Without it, the decline would've been steadier to the tune of another decade, like I said.
It started in the US, and then everyone else tagged on how they could charge more for essentially the same platform with a different body.
Greed made it spread.
Calling it a yank obsession is pretty dumb when SUV and crossovers have been on the rise for a long time everywhere, including Britain. People were already complaining back in the early 2000s. Weird superiority to have dude
It's Reddit. Every single bad thing is America/ns. Euro football fans blame Americans somehow for the big oil money owners buying their clubs and monetizing the game away from the common people and a Super League idea, even though the Super League idea has been tested by rich douche owners over and over again dating all the way back to the 1990s. And that the Premier League itself exists because at the time in the early 90s, those 20 clubs wanted to break off the rest of the English football pyramid to not have to share their revenue anymore with lower level clubs and get new TV broadcast deals all for themselves.
>Euro football fans blame Americans somehow for the big oil money owners buying their clubs and monetizing the game away from the common people and a Super League idea, even though the Super League idea has been tested by rich douche owners over and over again dating all the way back to the 1990s.
I'm not the biggest football guy but where the hell have you seen this?
SUVs have always been popular *period*, which is why I don’t understand the amount of pick-mes in this thread blaming the US for the rise of the SUV, as if it’s the only car market that matters. The average person would rather have an exposed hatch that gives them more space to shove stuff in, myself included, and guess what type of car combines lots of practicality with some rationality? Compact crossovers, which took the place of the mid-size sedan in North America and larger hatchbacks and wagons in large swaths of Europe. It’s no surprise that once someone cracked the code there, it would become popular.
Calling someone poor from a country with $37 trillion debt has a beautiful irony to that only someone who went through the US education system could come up with.
Appreciated the laugh thank you mate.
That isn't the self own you think it is.
The irony of thinking US debt means that the US is poor is fucking hilarious though. I think you're just projecting your own third world education onto me though with the insult.
There is a huge rural population with roads that aren't as well maintained, you kinda need one if you live out there (although brodozers can bite the dust)
The roads are a lot older in Europe, which means they’re not nearly as wide as in the US and other more modern architecture countries. So big SUVs and trucks literally are too big for the roads.
Most crossovers aren't wider or longer than the cars they are based on. That's part of the draw, more vertical interior space for a vehicle with the same footprint.
Take a look at the RAV4 and the Camry.
The RAV4 is 181 inches long, and 73 inches wide. The Toyota Camry is 193 inches long, and 72 inches wide.Not only is the RAV4 only an inch wider, but it's also nearly a full foot shorter.
The Tiguan is 73 inches wide and 184 inches long. The Passat it shares its platform with is 72 inches wide and 192 inches long. The Golf, which also shares a platform with these is 70 inches wide, and 168 inches long.
Big SUVs and trucks, you’re right. But the smaller crossovers, which by the way, are actually more popular as a class in America than trucks or big SUVs, can maneuver the older European roads, and their numbers are quickly rising in Europe. If you’re saying the Americans are the only ones in the process of killing the sedan, I’m afraid you’re mistaken, they’re just doing it first.
I didn’t make any sort of an argument that Americans are the only one behind the death of the sedan, I actually made the opposite argument in another comment. My point was in direct response to the statement that Europe is 10-20 years behind the US on timeline, which I largely agree with.
My point is that the smaller roads directly contributed to that lag because the US started with mid-sze and full size SUVs in the US, and then more recently the smaller compact and sub-compacts came out in force. Think about the original SUVs that the Germans brought over here: the Cayenne, the X5, etc. The X3 and Macan came years later, and now it seems like we’re headed toward 10,000+lb SUVs (EVs) like the Hummer SUV EV which is getting pretty damn close at 9,000lbs.
Yea, I probably should have said full size SUVs and 1500 Trucks, so the American SUVs that are on body on frame. Not the Q3s that most of the people downvoting me seem to be thinking when I literally said “Big SUVs and Trucks”.
In shape yes, but crucially they are raised. That allows easier ingress and egress, raised ride height which improves visibility, and greater suspension travel.
Yeah try for example taking a baby car seat in and out of a sedan or hatchback vs out of a crossover or suv that is at your torso height already. Or being older or really tall and less flexible and climbing down into and up out of a low riding sedan vs a crossover/truck/suv.
These things have all sold better in the last 20-30 years not because of some manufacturer conspiracy but because they work better for most people's needs, especially when they only have 1 vehicle. A sport sedan is great for myself in my 30s with no kids and no dog. It's not at all for someone with multiple children, or a retiree with stiffer joints and back.
I think it's a refusal to look at cars as the lifestyle commodity they are for most people. I think a lot of the vocal anti-SUV crowd also don't have young children and aren't or age-related pain. I don't either, but it's shocking how much bigger modern car seats are compared to when we were all children, and how much more of a pain they take to install as a result. And arthritis is an inevitability for a lot of people no matter how much young car enthusiasts try to frame as someone's personal failure to take care of their body.
Just a small clarification, the Q5 is MLB (Modularer **Längs**baukasten, as opposed to MQB for the Golf, which is Modularer **Quer**baukasten). Längs = longitudinal (and the Q5 has the longitudinal engine), Quer = transverse.
Not exactly...
[Dimensions: Volkswagen Golf 2019-2024 vs. Audi Q5 2020-2024] (https://share.google/hWyZ5UKJpD5bLtNRg)
But I see your point, I drive a Mazda 3 and my colleague drives a Mazda CX-3 (based on the Mazda 2). My colleague insisted the CX-3 was bigger (you know, an "SUV") until she gets inside of my Mazda 3.
The trend has been here for a few years already. Less than the US obviously but people either buy a hatchback or an SUV, sedans are very rare, wagons a bit less but they’re disappearing too.
The only people who think this way have never driven a modern crossover. They’re the perfect car for 99% of people. Also crossovers are like 50% of the eu car market too so 😹
I can understand it here because cars that size can fit on roads fairly comfortably. You just have to care absolutely zero about handling, economy, etc etc. which isn’t a priority if at all for most people.
That's not true at all. I care about those things (nice plus of the pacifica hybrid is the 500lb battery in the floor and 160hp electric motor means lower body roll and better low speed throttle response), but other things can still take priority, like functionality.
"Than any other minivan," If you compare it to an Golf R, the Pacifica loses out in the handling department. You have a priority on space and that is absolutely okay. Are there cars/vans that are better at handling than the others?...yes! I don't drive a Pacifica because I don't have a family so space is low on my priority list. It's how we buy cars.
Economy isn't even bad in large cars anymore. Driving 12,000 miles a year, the difference in money spent on fuel between getting 20 mpg and 40 mpg is only like one additional loan payment. at $4 a gallon, that's $1200 or $100 a month extra for 20 less miles per gallon. That's not significant money to people who can afford a $50,000-$80,000 large SUV or pickup.
I'm not your brah.
They handle better than people give them credit for. Cars have attributes, when you buy a car you prioritize them, I prioritize them differently than other people, that's okay. You can't just claim a SUV owner prioritizes handling, economy, etc over size and ride height. I'm not saying that's a bad thing.
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They provide no extra space compared to an equivalent hatchback/wagon/minivan. Usually a little less space actually. And they drive worse, unless you’re paying Porsche money to engineer most of the weaknesses away.
This isn’t r/sportscars or r/racecars either. Comments about Camrys and RAV4s are just as valid as comments about 911s and Mustangs.
People buy and like crossovers because they fulfill enough of their desires and requirements. It might not have as much cargo room as a minivan but it had more than a sedan or coupe. It might not have as much off-road prowess than a Wrangler but it has more than a sedan or minivan. It might not have as much beauty as a low slung two door roadster but it has more than a minivan, wagon, or hatchback (subjective, I know).
This isn’t about “most people” it’s about people who are interested enough in cars to go to a subreddit devoted to them. I would think that those people **do** care about driving dynamics.
And comparing a crossover to a coupe is lame lmao. I never said anything like that.
Because they are **worse**. In every single way that matters. They drive worse. They are heavier. They get worse fuel economy. They are more expensive. They are more dangerous to pedestrians. They are more dangerous in accidents.
The only thing that they are better at is making manufacturers more money, because their marketing has convinced people that they need to spend 10-20% more on a CUV vs a wagon.
Pretty much all of which apply to a wagon, coming from someone who absolutely adores them and has owned two of them, including a coveted brown manual used from the factory wagon. You know what anything with a hatch provides? More usable space over a comparable sedan for cargo. No one is trying to race a Honda Passport on Road America, so who cares if it doesn’t handle like a sports car? It’s secure enough for the average person. Most of those trade-offs are worth it for what you gain in interior room and potentially a car that’s shorter in length and easier to park.
Obviously I wanted something with more handling chops over an average crossover, so I opted for a performance sedan. Even then you can get a performance crossover that will absolutely humiliate my Elantra on a track. You can like what you like without having to dive into the “Everybody’s an Idiot Except for Me” trope that’s all too common here.
Even the Top Gear original trio was smitten with luxury pickup trucks when they did a special with them. Turns out driving a moving studio apartment on wheels feels nice. Saying this as someone driving a sport sedan, btw. I don't want one but I see the appeal.
You should probably look at the trend in sales for larger crossovers and the like in Europe if you think the lust for larger and higher vehicles is purely an American and Canadian phenomenon.
Traffic has become much more fun with all these SUVs once I started pretended I was an escort fighter threading my way through B17 formations. Or *checks flair* …. *attacking them…*
The A7 is as long as a Kia Telluride, it itself is an oversized car
Ultimately sedans are an impractical body shape and it's not surprising they're dying
Exactly. Cars 100 years ago all had the body shape that’s much closer to today’s crossover.
Just look at these: https://imgur.com/a/Hnlp5bA
Sedan was a much later invention.
The A7 is the same size as a 90s era Cadillac Seville. I don't feel it's 'oversized,' but it's definitely a 'full-size' sedan.
I like that sedans persist with the same engines as the SUVs. They have more power, perform better, and get better fuel economy, largely due to the lack of all of that moving mass. The SUVs are taller, and that literally involves more glass and steel, and therefore involves more weight with all of the physics entanglements that suggests.
we have a lot of crumbling infrastructure that sucks when you’re closer to the ground, among other things.
regularly in my somewhat low cars i hit crazy potholes and trash roads and huge bumps or changes in road height etc. and sometimes think dang this is why people like SUVs lol. just run over all this and hardly feel it and no need to worry about your underside getting scraped up or gashed.
I’m 24 and even though I drive a sedan, I have to admit it’s much easier to get into an SUV compared to when I was a kid. I had an X5 loaner and it was extremely comfortable getting into the car, and not to mention things like keypads for gates, etc. are at level with you.
Yank here. I've read it is slowly infecting the EU. I guess we're going to begin selling our oversized pickup trucks over there, and apparently there's an audience for those. I wish we could stick that 'big SUV / full-size pickup' genie back in the bottle. I have no idea how.
I was ubered in an A6 yesterday. idk what trim, but it was one of the best interiors I have ever seen. and im no audi fan but that interior was beautiful. wood-like trim idk if it was natural.
I feel that way about my A5 Sportback. The interior is just a cut above so many things I've had in the past. Admittedly, it's my first luxury car. I've had a fair few econoboxes, sporty econoboxes, and a few muscle cars (which one could refer to as an overpriced sporty econobox as well).
Yeah honestly folks who complain about A3 and BMW 1s when it comes to luxury don't realize those cars are entry level.
Heck even BMW 3 and Audi A4 and MB C class skirt on basic.
The real luxury should be apparent in the BMW 5 series MB E class and Audi A6.
If you check the previous generations of those make and models they had pretty well thought out interiors as opposed to today where they try to shoot for high gloss and lots of touch screens which are cheaper and try to go the "high tech" youth look.
Let's be real, I don't think the under 30s are buying 60k mid level luxury sedans. Someone needs to let manufacturers know to stop catering to the super young touch screen generation. Nearly everyone prefers tactile buttons for just about every control except typing addresses or song titles.....
So knobs, dials, rotary, and analog gauges.....
> Heck even BMW 3 and Audi A4 and MB C class skirt on basic.
>
> The real luxury should be apparent in the BMW 5 series MB E class and Audi A6.
The thing that's frustrating about this to me is that not everyone needs or wants a big car. Why can't we have small cars that are just as nice?
IMHO the A6 C7 was peak Audi, the shit I see now is appalling in comparison
The dash has no distinguishable features, it has just some screens tacked on, the steering wheel looks cheap, the logo is flat, everything is glossy piano black and it just doesn't look like it will hold up well with time.
The problem is I'm the kind of buyer where there are dozens of us.
I *want* luxury but I also want a smaller car. I wish I could at least option most of these cars up, but you aren't given the opportunity. Like, if I could get a 2 series with the same interior quality as a 5 series or 8 series that would be amazing.
Yep. S3 owner here. I'd say the interior is similar to a high trim level Accord of the same vintage. It's not much different than the 2009 Subaru Legacy GT Limited I had before it. The fit and finish is the one thing that is noticeably better than cheaper cars, though. No rattles or loose trim pieces anywhere even 11 years and 100k miles old. Everything feels more solid than the Subarus and Hondas I had before it.
I don’t know that its true that the target market wants a bunch of buttons. I think that people actually make a buying decision off of the screen, and then they realize it sucks after they already bought the car lol
I know I like the controls on my steering wheel and don't want the touch / haptic replacements. Which especially goes for the power window controls. I think my 2022 has a good balance of all of those modern items. And yeah, I couldn't afford this until I was well into my 40s. I guess I could have gone used, but I wanted a new one.
I leased a 2018 s5 cabriolet the expensive prestige premium one and the interior was very plastic. The only halfway nice part was the leather was stitched in a quilted pattern. Otherwise, it was hard with lots of gloss black.
Yup that's the same way I feel about mine. It was pretty much love at first sight. Saw the car from the outside, then I saw the interior through the window, and that was it.
I back-to-back drove a brand new A5 loaner versus my buddies brand new S3 while his was in for service. Now the S3 is sportier and a little more special and a LOT less roomy. But oh my god the A5 felt so underwhelming in comparison. No adaptive suspension combined with enormous 19's meant that it really did not handle expansion joints or bumps well. And we cooked the brakes in about 2 or 3 minutes of not that serious driving going UP a mountain. Not down. My Lexus from the 90's has better brakes, what were they thinking. It's not like it even has that much horsepower either. Plus I can't believe how little rear legroom there was for such a large car.
Love the styling, love the green this particular car came in, and I love shootingbrake\hatches. But dynamically, it was incredibly underwhelming. And not entirely due to its size. For something that looks so desirable on the road, it was a really underwhelming experience ,especially dynamically, compared to a lot of the other stuff I've been in. I was less impressed than my buddies old base A4.
Your feedback is so slanted, I don't really know how to respond. I've never driven an S2, but I have driven my friend's Golf R and found it to not be that impressively faster feeling (although numbered tests say otherwise) and a whole lot harsher than my A5. I do wish my A5 had an adaptive suspension like the S5, but I have no complaints about the ride. I tend to own cheaper sport cars, and compared to previous vehicles I've had, the A5 is downright soft. The brakes? I have never torture tested them like you, but everyone I've let drive my car is impressed with the brakes.
I don't know what year the 'old base A4' was, but I don't think my A5 takes a back seat to even the previous gen A4, but that's my opinion.
I also think the new A5 has lost something vs its predecessor, so I bought the only one I've really liked.
>my friend's Golf R
What mode was its suspension in? The breadth of the DCC is quite broad, stiff modes get quite stiff compared to comfort. I'm just comparing what I feel in direct comparison to another Audi product. 5, maybe 10 minutes inbetween the two. Is it better than a rental Hyundai? Oh yeah it forsure is, it's not downright bad bad. It just doesn't handle large expansion joints and bumps well, despite it having a lot of "soft spring". There's a difference between lots of suspension travel and handling bumps well. And for the pricepoint, I was expecting better. But alas, maybe that's the premium you pay for the adaptive suspension.
Nor is it really about their stopping power just testing them one time. Every car has good brakes which feel powerful and can stop the car once. Its about their ability to maintain their performance when driving the car spiritedly. I can go into details if you'd like, but the A5 brakes did not handle the sort of driving that I'd expect from even a standard appliance Chevy Cruze or Hyundai Kona. It was very strange. That's why my first thought is just that they were broken.
His older car was a first gen B9 Audi A4, 2018 w\ adaptive suspension. We drove a brand new 2025 A5, I dunno what the gen is versus the one you've got. If you've got smaller 18'' rims that would also make the ride quality a step above what we experienced as well, as our car had the 19's.
His Golf R suspension was in 'soft mode' (I asked and checked the setting myself). My A5 has the 19s filled to the recommended pressure level (which I find a bit high to be honest).
People who drive my car aren't judging by one stop. That's a bold assumption on your part. I don't know explicitly, but I would hazard a guess that my brakes would out perform a Cruze or a Kona, but this line is speculation on your part and mine. Maybe that loaner A5 was driven by two-foot driving old person who wore them out?
I thought the A4 was commensurate in its packaging to the A5. As far as I know the A5 in my generation (2022) didn't have an option for adaptive suspension). I did test drive a 40 TFSI with 18" wheels and that one rode quite a bit softer than my 45 TFSI, but that weaker engine felt so gutless to me.
If by 'brand new A5' you mean the newly released design . . . well then you may be right that it's taken a big dive dynamically. I already don't like the new one, but even if I didn't, I don't plan to be in the market anytime soon.
Interesting. So the new new third generation redesign which is 25\26 I think. Depends on the market you're in. The car I drove was 2nd gen, so lets call it a 24'. Then we've got a pretty similar car then. Yeah the adaptive suspension on 18's is a total gamechanger - I dunno. Iwas super underwhelmed by my experience without them.
Maybe it was a ragged on loaner. I don't recall how many miles were on it, I never checked, but it felt otherwise brand new though.
Oh yeah that was another thing, the power felt underwhelming but that is hard to split hairs at those sorts of power levels. So I'm not exactly sure.
Except the RS3 is known for being a barebones car with shitty interior and no features. Instead you get a beautiful engine, great road feel, and a beautiful exhaust note.
I assume you've never sat in one before.
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It's still largely the same interior as an A3. You're paying $70k for the exotic turbo 5 cylinder, beefed up DSG transmission, AWD system with rear torque splitter, and suspension. It's more of a rally car homologation than a luxury car, similar to how back in the day a STI cost significant money with the same interior as a base Impreza. The money is for the performance, not luxury.
I am baffled to hear this. I have family with Audis (A7, SQ7, G8 e-tron), and I hate the interiors. They are short (my head hit the ceiling in all 3), the cupholders are way too small, they have too many screens, and the piano black shows dust and prints like crazy. Even Audi admitted a few months back that their interior quality had declined too much, with reliance on cheap plastics and generally unimpressive material quality.
I used to have a 2018 A6 and the interior was sooo nice. Extensive warm looking wood grain, solid feel physical buttons, subtly driver focused, you could stow the screen. Just felt of very high quality. You just wanted to sit and chill in that car. I sat in the newer generation and it did not have the same allure. Sure it was digital and nice I guess, but it lost the warmth
I still have 2018 a6. Last week went to audi for yearly maintenance I checked the new cars. Holy shit my car is 2-3x better than newer cars. A5 is shit, A6 previous generation is ok but my 2018 is better, new a6 e tron is shit, q5 is shit, q3 is shit, q8 was ok, a3 is ok again older a3's were better.
There is a 100% chance I would take the 2018 over any newer model if they were both new. I started getting the coolant/oil leak issues under the supercharger and my wife needed a new car when we had our 3rd child so I traded it in for a Telluride. Lobed that vehicle though. The 3.0T engine was a refined gem too
Interesting, because every time I look at an Audi interior, I think it's significantly worse than literally all of the competition at the same price point. I feel like this is true for all of VAG, for example the interior of Porsche Taycan is also very disappointing.
I guess it's just a matter of a different taste?
Maybe it was a C7 A6, the one before your C8. In my opinion C7 interior > C8 interior (at least for the materials, design and functionality are subjective: C7 had rotary dial MMI, C8 touchscreen MMI).
Not exactly a sedan. A five-door lift back. I rarely saw them in my area. A lot of Audi’s customers went to the Tesla Model S and X, at least for a while.
Unless I am missing something, this is just a last gen product being phased out, similar to how every brand does it? Usually the Sedan variant is the first to be replaced, with the coupe following some time after. For example, the last gen M8 was being sold along side the latest M5. Its just the product cycles don't align perfectly.
eeeh... https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/audi-a7-2018-liftback-vs-audi-a6-2018-sedan/rear/ definitely prefer the A7 personally... it just looks sleeker/sportier
Audi is simplifying their lineup to give buyers what they want. The outgoing A4 and A6 sedan were replaced by 5-door hatchbacks (Sportbacks in Audi speak). The new A5 Sportback takes the place of both the outgoing A4 and A5, and the new A6 Sportback takes the place of the outgoing A6 and A7. It’s not tne end of the world, it’s the end of model variants that no longer sell well.
“Fastback” refers to the swoop back design of the C-pillar and rear quarter - nothing to do with having a traditional trunk lid or hatch. “Lift back” is technically a type of “hatch back”.
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/#
The A/S/RS7 is in the Panamera's segment as the value option. That segment has more dynamic driving characteristics than the A8/S-class/7 series. It's the Panamera, AMG GT 4 door, 8 series gran coupé, and A/S/RS7. It's just that as usual, Porsche is the most expensive German option.
The new A5 is also more expensive. The A4, even the S4, was relatively cheap especially when compared to competition. I always wondered why the 'sportback' had such a markup. That said, I love my 2022 A5 Sportback.
I can't say I'm surprised. Around me I used to see soooo many A7s when the first gen launched. I used to see multiple A7s every day. I can't recall the last time I saw a 2nd gen. Nobody is buying them. They are buying Q5s, Q7s, and Q8s.
Man, that C7.5 of yours is clean. White color plus black badges is just sexy.
I prefer those rims with an S7 though : https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XqYAAOSwX2JceUI-/s-l400.jpg
And yeah, Audi made timeless designs back then.
Nope nothing major. The only thing I was worried about was the turbo screen issue, but the recall and fix came before it killed my turbos.
Other than that, some faulty O2 sensors, but nothing else.
Agreed. Feels like that for all the sedans. We had a C7 S6 sedan, now have an SQ7. I can count on one hand the number of newer A6s I’ve seen in the last year (no S6 models), whereas I see Q7s everyday.
New ICE A6 was going to be A7 and the electric the A6. Audi switched their mind and called them both A6 (new ICE version coming here) and A6 etron (available currently). So this is changing of naming scheme more than anything.
This makes me sad. Original A7/S7 is one of the best looking sedans ever IMO. The refresh took a little getting used to but grew on me. As an A5 sportback owner, I was thinking of going up to an a7/s7 next. Used will be the only option now.
Good news is maybe this gets me to wait to see if they really release the Golf R with the 5 cylinder in the US. My mk7 GTI is the most fun to drive car I’ve owned and wouldn’t mind going back
Not just referring to the A7s. They have been cheaping out (I guess all brands have been to a certain degree), and even the owners have been complaining about new design and material. See the new A5 and Q5 for example
> I guess all brands have been to a certain degree
That's the real issue. You can find the same A5 and Q5 complaints about the new BMW X3, the new Porsche Cayenne, and some new Mercedes products. It's an industry-wide problem.
If I have to go shopping for another car I am going to have so few options to pick from. I'm really only interested in driving a sedan. I'll probably have to go used from now on.
[The new A6 is replacing the old A6.](https://www.motor1.com/news/755772/new-audi-a6-teaser/)
>There had been plans to move the A6 lineup to the A7 designation to better separate cars with combustion engines from those with electric drivetrains. The intent was to use odd numbers for ICE and even numbers for EV. However, Audi recently gave up on this strategy less than two years after announcing it.
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