Look it up for countries like the netherlands. If you make more than 70k, u get taxed 50%. And if you have above 20k in savings, u get a wealth tax. They simply don't want you to save or invest.

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considerfi@reddit

They literally said they were ok with being underpaid. If you value peace of mind then you may take one without enough pay increases for that peace of mind. I hope to get a job like that for "retirement".

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RandyHoward@reddit

It's not just about the pay, I've always been underpaid. But going without pay increases for years is stupid, as the cost of living constantly goes up. If you're not at least getting cost of living increases, then you're taking a pay cut every year. I've experienced that at numerous companies. I've mainly worked in startups and small businesses though.

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pikadives@reddit

Stupid is a strong word... currently there's a fear of getting targeted for layoffs based on factors like seniority & thus being ejected into a competitive market (not unfounded imo), so optimizing for a "safer" position over a better-paid "riskier" position can be a rational move if the premises are correct

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-_1_2_3_-@reddit

People who say they stay at one job forever often are afraid of trying to get another job.

They rationalize that a lot of ways.

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BatForge_Alex@reddit

I can turn that right around:

Suburbs/towns surrounding cities aren't exactly cheap either.

cholantesh@reddit

That's all fair enough for sure, especially the size of the lot. Side note, we really do get hosed up here in the GTA, my lot is only 8000 square feet and it was probably significantly more expensive than anything you'd get in a lot of markets in the US.

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failsafe-author@reddit

But, different people value different things. There are pluses and minuses, but this is the kind of life I grew up with and enjoy, so it works for me.

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spacedragon13@reddit

Clearly you haven't seen the country. SF and LA you spend 5 hours in traffic watching tents on the side of the road. I would much rather live within 5 minutes of forests, parks, and lakes in more rural places. There are plenty of big cities with exponentially higher QOL than SF, NYC, LA offer to anyone who values nature, clean air, no traffic, house size, etc.

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jagenabler@reddit

I'm sorry but this is an extremely uninformed take. I live in SF and have lived in LA - every person in SF is a 10 minute walk to a beautiful park, there are mountains and nature _in the city_, and world-class nature an hour bike ride north. I'm never stuck in traffic because I don't drive, I can bike and walk everywhere. I live here because of the easy access to the nature. Literally look up Golden Gate Park, Marin Headlands, Mount Tamalpais, etc.

LA has traffic unfortunately, but also is one of few places in the world where you can ski and surf in the same day. The beach and mountains are an hour drive apart.

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spacedragon13@reddit

SF nature access within an hour drive is 100% real but nowhere close to best parks/hikes in the country. The $/sqft of tiny living quarters, homeless people EVERYWHERE, crumbling municipal infrastructure, overpriced everything, doesn't justify the COL for me. I think it's a great historic city but the QOL doesn't remotely justify COL if you have a choice. If you're a nepobaby that inherited a ton of money or a billionaire who owns a software empire, it's a wonderful place to live. For all the developers that are working for that billionaire, it's probably the last place they would choose. The pandemic demonstrated this clear as day - as soon as workers could go remote they disappeared. Without the geographic requirement to live near tech HQs, we saw a massive departure into second-tier + suburban markets.

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cholantesh@reddit

People were leaving those second-tier markets, too, because the advantages of living in any urban centre were severely curtailed by public health restrictions. But multiple analyses have shown that those same people regret doing so, because whatever the merits are of rural living, most of the available property in the US and Canada is sub- or exurban.

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Automatic-Stomach954@reddit

I visited my wife's family in Mexico recently as my first international trip and it was a wake up call. There are just so many things culturally and lifestyle wise that are just simply better than here in the states. It's depressing how here in the US strangers rarely talk to each other or just say hello, how little people help each other with the small things, how distant even my close family feels, the food, the cities, the vibrancy of life. I don't know how to explain it, but I have zero heritage there and I somehow miss it.

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bestjared@reddit

Agreed. My armchair sociologist take is this has to do with individual vs collectivist cultures, & many (all?) Latin American cultures have a strong sense of community and togetherness that much of the west/global north just doesn't have.

It's much easier to make friends with random strangers in Mexico than anywhere in the US in my experience.

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bringer_of_carnitas@reddit

Can you go to another country? I thought it was super expensive

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What other nice things are easier in the US? Genuinely curious cause a lot of my friends love travelling and seeing nature in the US but I would assume traveling in the EU would be just as good if not better (getting to see entirely different countries instead of...South Dakota and Ohio). Even nature I would assume there's a decent amount of in the EU. So I can't really think of what the US would have that the EU would be particularly missing.

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numice@reddit

My guess is that while it's very nice to fly over for several hours and see different cultures and languages, every time you have to face language/culture barrier too. It's kinda both a plus because you get to see new things but I can totally see doing this many times and it's tiring too. It would be also just as nice if you just want to travel only for nature but not for like cultural aspect or food.

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jimjkelly@reddit

See my reply to your peer comment for general things that are better in the US, but yeah travel was a huge plus to being in Europe. We went so many places both in Germany where we lived and other countries! Really enjoyed that. After a decade of doing it though the relative value of it decreased, and I’m having a blast exploring the American west now and the Rocky Mountains where I live.

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CandleTiger@reddit

What kind of "other nice things" are you thinking of that are better here than in Europe?

I've been wanting for a long time to move to Europe, but haven't found a way with family ties here and residency requirements there. Tell me about the reasons to be happy where I am!

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jimjkelly@reddit

Your options as a high earning consumer in many areas are substantially better. The food I can buy is better and more varied (at least as compared to Germany where I lived), the healthcare I have is better, personal transportation options are much better (public transit is the opposite of course, but my options for using my own vehicle are better and yes, even in Europe that is sometimes useful/necessary), my options for general consumer goods are better. I live more comfortably in that I can afford a bigger and nicer house (although I still live in a relatively small house by American standards at my income level (it’s just over 2k square feet, hardly a McMansion, but I appreciate being able to use my kitchen and having a fridge that didn’t remind me of something from a college dorm). I have central air and heating, ceiling fans (we eventually took care of this ourselves but man people thought we were weird for having ceiling fans lol).

I literally do not ever need tot think about money now which is a huge stress reliever. In Europe I was doing well but I at least needed to consider my budget a bit. I also spent more on healthcare there since I was a contractor (if I wasn’t a contractor I would have earned even less).

None of this is saying Europe isn’t a great place to live, there was so much we miss about it and that was hands down better than the US. Just pointing out there’s plenty that is easier in the US, particularly if you are high earner. If I were below h the median income Europe would hands down be better and in most categories I listed above I’d be better off there.

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ToughStreet8351@reddit

Aside of food (which I question… I would actually say the opposite… you can buy high quality food pretty much anywhere in Europe… or at least in France and Italy)… you just say “better” without specifying why. Also healthcare… how is better? In France my general practitioner tells me to visit a specialist and I can have the appointment within a couple of days if not the very same day. Of O need an exam (like mri, echo, or whatever) I can have have it done within a week at 0 cost.

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jimjkelly@reddit

So food in Germany at least was not particularly good. Availability of fresh produce (aside from seasonal stuff which I can of course also get here at a farmers market) was really poor, both in quality and variety. I saw similar in many countries in Northern Europe at least, perhaps it’s better in Southern Europe. I was actually just back in Belgium and was grocery shopping and remarked to my friend that I had forgotten just how shit the grocery stores were.

So you moved back because of other reasons but not because of pay or QoL right?

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pyramin@reddit

I moved back because I made the mistake of conflating money with value and didn’t realize how much better my QoL was in Japan. That’s why I’m on my way back over there now lol

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numice@reddit

Interesting. I used to get stressed about money many times or maybe I'm also conflating not having money with not having opportunities. I used to live in Japan and also was looking into working there too. I'm still learning Japanese these days.

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RicketyRekt69@reddit

Isn’t Japan king of unpaid overtime..? Or are you saying you worked for a European company in Japan?

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pat58000@reddit

Americans work 127 more hours on average annually than Japanese workers

https://20somethingfinance.com/american-hours-worked-productivity-vacation/

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I thought that was because a lot of the hours Japanese workers put in are off the clock?

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TheLIstIsGone@reddit

That and Japan has a much higher

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cbunn81@reddit

Such as adjusting my diet to the local environment rather than clinging to my native one.

Personally, I prefer the food options in Japan. You can eat healthful food for much cheaper than in the US. The downside for me is that since I live in the countryside, international food options are limited. Every once in a while I'll take a trip to a large city and get my fix.

No car, instead public transit and walking everywhere (which I much prefer anyways and feel much healthier).

Walkability is nice and hard to find in the US. That said, where I am public transit is limited so I still have to have a car.

Apartment is smaller but moving internationally I realized that so much of my US apartment was storage for shit I didn't need.

I don't mind the smaller housing generally, but the thing that grinds my gears is that kitchens in most apartments are like an afterthought. I enjoy cooking, but working in a cramped space doesn't make it enjoyable. Not to mention the lackluster oven situation.

visiting the US will always be expensive though.

And ever since the pandemic, it seems there are fewer carrier options for flying to the US, fuel costs have gone up, the yen has been devalued, etc. So flights to the US are crazy high these days.

The hardest part though has been my lack of skill in Japanese. It makes everything much harder but people have been incredibly patient and friendly with me.

This is one of the biggest things for me. In most of the US, if you don't speak English well, you get treated like crap or outright assaulted. But in Japan, if your Japanese isn't great but you make an effort, people are really considerate and accommodating in my experience.

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pyramin@reddit

Rakuten?

I’m looking at moving back soon and keeping my US job as a contractor if I can for as long as I can. Then I can take advantage of the US salary but not have to live in this hell hole where you can’t walk anywhere and the quality of everything sucks while somehow also being ridiculously expensive

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Complex_Ad2233@reddit

Cost of living is different in Europe. You don’t need the big salaries to have a good life there.

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norbi-wan@reddit

Depends on where. Some western European countries are almost as expensive as the US.

If you want to live like a king from Software Engineer salary, Eastern Europe is the best option.

I just wrote a post about this topic on cscareerquestionseu

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reconcilable4@reddit

I work for a company like that and our Canadian employees do make less (albeit higher than most all of the Canadian-based market)

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Excuse_Odd@reddit

You don’t need this much money to live a good life in other countries bro. Have you been to Australia or Europe?

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t-tekin@reddit

Current TC? Current savings? Yearly spending?

Really depends on these numbers.

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ozziegt@reddit (OP)

Salary is $250k and we spend about $10k a month. I'm reluctant to put my full financial situation since this isn't a throwaway account

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I spend more with big ones for us being mortgage, food, and travel/vacations. Still make a lot more than I spend. I basically pay for convenience, better quality and more frequent travel. We travel for vacations (conventions, cruises, tropical getaways, etc) I think 6+ times a year.

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lyth@reddit

You can make that in Toronto. I feel like I need to write a new guide on how to find top of market comp as an engineer.

This is my last one, I've learned a bit since then and have a more systemic approach than just making them come to you, but this is a start:

Totally feel this. I track our groceries and we definitely hit over $2k a month for family of 4. We do buy almost exclusively organic produce and protein but it’s worth it to us. It does make me cry a little how much it is.

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klowny@reddit

Wtf are they spending 11-12k a month on?

Mortgages.

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xt1nct@reddit

Since op doesn’t want to share details I doubt it’s a mortgage.

Spending $12k a month is fucking crazy. Mortgage on a 1 million dollar house with 20% should be around $6k-$7k. I don’t think someone with that kind of salary should have a house that expensive.

Devs really need a lesson on saving and investing.

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zhemao@reddit

Don't know about OP, but 12k a month is not an absurd monthly spend if you own a house and have young children. You aren't getting a house for just 1mil unless you're in a very remote place, a bad school district, or have a very small or crappy house.

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xt1nct@reddit

What are you talking about? 1mil gets you a house in a great area with great school. I’m not talking about some rural area either.

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If they’re in the Bay Area cheaper houses are 700k

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non3type@reddit

Mortgage, maintenance, repairs, utilities, food for a whole family. It spends quicker than you’d think.

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xt1nct@reddit

I own a house I also don’t shy away from learning how to perform repairs. Some foundation repairs are stupid easy.

Of course if you are doing all that work and hiring someone it will get expensive fast, but all those repairs shouldn’t be the norm. You don’t replace concrete, hvac, windows and kitchen frequently.

I think tech workers are a bit spoiled. Many buy expensive cars(myself included unfortunately), and make poor financial decisions.

My CS degree did cost only like $50k because I went to an average state school.

We do not need to spend $200k on a CS degree.

I know “normal” people working normal jobs. They plan years ahead to update their kitchen. Their driveway is cracked. It’s fine. There is no need to live in a perfect house and dated kitchen can still function.

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non3type@reddit

It depends a lot on house. My house that was build in 2007? I didn’t have to spend a penny on it beyond things we wanted to do. This house built in 1983? Dude, when your house is sinking and needs to be lifted you aren’t doing it yourself. I’m not talking about sealing cracks lol. Once you’ve lifted a house that’s been slowly sinking for 40+ years you are going to have a hard time opening and closing windows, possibly doors. My drive was so cracked water was washing out ground underneath front stoop and I wasn’t about to wait for that to collapse.

My siding is all recalled composite siding from the 80s that expands/contracts, has to be constantly resealed and rots like nobody’s business.

It looks nice and you’d likely never know since I take care of it, but not all houses are created equal.

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xt1nct@reddit

Your case is pretty niche man and yeah I’m definitely not lifting a house diy. That’s brutal and expensive, this is very uncommon in the Midwest, I haven’t heard of a single person having to lift their house.

My house is from 76! And doesn’t need any of that stuff. I did remodel when I bought by myself few years ago.

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klowny@reddit

My house is from the 40s and still has the original foundation, walls, windows, and piping.

The electrical has already been swapped out, but it's reaching the age where it might need another round of modernization. The roof was also at its 2nd end of life.

Foundation's still going strong, but the pipes definitely needed and still needs replacement, the windows were surprisingly usable when I got the house, but I swapped them out just for modern insulation/noise blocking.

House repairs basically come in waves, sooner or later, and always seem to be 10k+ jobs. I don't think anyone recommends DIYing the big repairs (electric, water, sewer, roofs, foundation), nor does DIY even save that much money. Remodels can be budgeted for. Small fixes don't make too much of a financial dent DIY or not.

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non3type@reddit

I totally agree, but it’s kind of the same thing with cars and medical for a family as well. It all just kind of adds up and I think if you were to truly average your spend over 5-10 years some people might be surprised.

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non3type@reddit

Neither have I beyond myself. I will say the 80s was a particularly special time. It happens here because of the use of fill to flatten property. Construction has gotten better about it and there wasn’t as much “mass built” neighborhoods in 70s here. It’s just kind of part of an example as far as shit happens. Add a spouse and kids and there’s lots of opportunities for it.

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MechatronicsStudent@reddit

I guess some people wrestle between material possessions and saving for the future while also wanting to leave the country they live in due to prejudice but pays 3x the global average.

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klowny@reddit

$1M barely gets you a 2 bed fixer upper here on the ok part of town on the west coast, and OP's house looks quite a bit nicer than that.

Once you're at 3-4 bedrooms in a decent school district, you're easily looking at $2m+ houses.

Granted, the people I know in this situation with that level of spend are also have significantly higher HHI. Just saying that level of spend isn't unusual here; agreed that having that level of spend on only $250k is not financially wise since that's basically spending every last after-tax dollar.

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I_Will_Be_Brief@reddit

This is why absolute income can be misleading. Childcare is basically free here in France, and I have 4 kids, so you can do the maths on how much I save manually vs your average working American. I would say we've spent less than 5k in total on childcare.

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If you are from EU/Canada you should realise, americans tend to overaxagerrate salary, most of time u need to deduct /state/federal income tax, social security/Health insurance. It cean mean $130-160k after all taxes which suddenly is not $250k.

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t-tekin@reddit

In a lot of states in US, like CA, WA, NY, CO etc… there are salary transparency laws. Open the ads, you’ll find the bands disclosed. You can always confirm. The data is out there.

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Pyran@reddit

Well, it depends on what you're talking about. It's not an exaggeration to say how much I make and how much you make if we both are talking before taxes. If I'm talking gross and you're talking net then yes, we have an apples-and-oranges situation.

But most of the people I know talk about salaries in terms of gross numbers. Yeah, after taxes, benefits, etc. I make roughly 50-60% of my gross salary, but it's a lot easier in conversation to say "I make X" than "I make about 0.55 * X".

Though this leads me to wonder: do people in EU/Canada refer to their salaries using their net pay?

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flowering_sun_star@reddit

do people in EU/Canada refer to their salaries using their net pay?

I know the UK is neither of those (sob), but we refer to gross salary. That way at least is a common reference point because there's so many ways to structure things thanks to salary sacrifice schemes that act as tax incentives to do things like save for a pension.

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AwkwardBet5632@reddit

The places you make that money the housing costs are wild.

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ZeroProofPolitics@reddit

These people aren't the majority of programmers working in the US. This median salary of a US software dev is $130k:

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm

OP is literally in the top 10% of income earning households, top 5% of individual earners.

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CandleTiger@reddit

That stats page is for Software Developers, Quality Assurance, and Testers all as one group.

Testing and QA positions typically have a much lower salary than software development positions. I don't know how much insight you can get from combining them.

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If you’re married with kids and own a house it would be obvious where that money goes lol.

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gbeaglez@reddit

They are possibly in the bay area or similar very high cost of living area in the us then that spending for rent, childcare and food makes sense. PITI on a 3bed 1bath 1100 sqft home can easily be 11-12k a month with current interest rates.

And the 3k mortgage? Sounds like you live in a mansion. 😅

I don't know where you would want to go, but to be frank in Europe this lifestyle would be a bit unrealistic. Don't get me wrong, as a software dev with that experience you can lead a good life (I do imo and I only have half of your YOE) and the more experienced/older guys like you that I know in the industry, usually drive nice cars and live in big nice houses. Just not 4 cars and maybe a bit smaller houses... On the other hand, as I said many things are cheaper here and public transport often is better and work life balance and social security is usually also better. Both worlds have advantages and disadvantages imo and it's just a question of personal priorities. If your top priority is making as much money as possible, the USA is definitely better.

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Upbeat-Conquest-654@reddit

In many countries in Europe, software engineer is a regular job with a slightly above average salary. Not much more than other office jobs. That salary let's you live a good live in most countries. But I guess it's not comparable to the US and the salaries you can achieve there.

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ToughStreet8351@reddit

I mean… my software engineer salary in France put me in the top %5 of earners

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Early-Surround7413@reddit

Top 5% in France is like top 40% in the US.

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ToughStreet8351@reddit

I do live a better life than most top 40% in the US though

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Early-Surround7413@reddit

LOL.

Sure, you keep believing that.

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ToughStreet8351@reddit

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ToughStreet8351@reddit

You don’t understand… it’s not simply about what I get out of my taxes… is about what whole society does.

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Maert@reddit

Sorry, but how do you have 2 houses without mortgage with 90k income?

Unless if you bought 20 years ago, that's impossible.

I am in Netherlands, earning well over 90k and there's no way in hell that I'd be close to having a single property without mortgage, let alone two.

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pamcrier@reddit

Sorry, but how do you have 2 houses without mortgage with 90k income?

I don't think one house in the South of France near the sea is possible nowadays on a 90K single income without preexisting capital. They range in the 1M€ - 1.5M€ minimum.

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ToughStreet8351@reddit

I do live and work in the French Riviera, so my house next to the beach is my main residence. I don’t have 2. I never rented… once I moved here (15y ago) I got an apartment right away (with mortgage)… it did raise lot in value and once I sold it and wanted to move to a bigger place I could just take a way smaller mortgage that is already paid off (plus it was at a 0.9% interest rate)

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Maert@reddit

Ok, entering the housing market 15 years ago definitely helps :)

And double income (no kids?), especially if both are high is also very helpful, as well as doing nvidia stock at perfect timing 😅

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ToughStreet8351@reddit

Double income one kid. But to be fair kids here are pretty inexpensive. Anything healthcare related is free and get help from government with childcare even if wealthy. Our private Montessori micro kindergarten (no more than 12 kids an one teacher every 3 kids) only costed us 700€ a month.

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Maert@reddit

zkareface@reddit

top 45% in the USA

That would be entry level pay in EU. A very good dev can make x10 this in EU.

To be in the top 45% of salary earners in the U.S. (meaning you are earning more than 55% of people), you would need an annual income of at least approximately $50,339,

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alpacaMyToothbrush@reddit

Maybe I'm misreading your comment, but you can make 500k in Europe? Where? Maybe deepmind still has an office in london. I can see a AI researcher making that, but that's about it.

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Single_Site9686@reddit

E6 in the UK at Meta still seems to clear over 500k: https://www.levels.fyi/companies/facebook/salaries/software-engineer/levels/e6/locations/united-kingdom

I'd imagine similar staff positions at other big tech companies with a presence (e.g. Google in Switzerland, Uber in the Netherlands) probably pay more.

The caveats are:
1. There are very few of these jobs to go around, so getting one of these roles is probably harder than the US where you've got like thirty different public big tech to midsized recently IPO'd companies to pick from.

You could probably still make more in the US.

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BroBroMate@reddit

I'm in NZ, earning about 100K USD, which enabled me to buy a 5 bedroom house worth about 425K USD in a nice small town about 20 minutes from our second largest city, and I've got multiple beaches 5 - 10 minutes away, and the Southern Alps about one hour away.

I've never understood the logic.

I have an above average salary, I pay half of what I earn in taxes. But, I have mass public transport, everyone gets paid if they get sick, 6 weeks holiday and a 32 hour work week. Also an office culture based on honesty and directness. I have been to a lot of different countries and seen how people live and I wouldn't trade it. If you offered me twice as much money but none of those things, I definitely wouldn't take it.

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zkareface@reddit

The good ones are still part of the 1%

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questionable--user@reddit

It's a little shocking to me since you are non-white and Muslim. You must have been born in America? Have you ever left the country? Have you ever lived in another country before?

Actually having a life trumps money period end of story

You have to prioritize what you really want out of life

Seems to me that you care for money but you also care for quality of life. Maybe think about the quality of life in other countries compared to the salaries they have

A good example would be healthcare. You'll be paying a lot of money for healthcare towards the end of your life. All that hard work and all that money will be going towards that in America most likely unless you take in really good care of your health

Just some things to think about. Good luck out there!

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nfigo@reddit

I've lived abroad briefly. Most other countries have healthcare through the government, even places with low cost of living. That's huge. You don't have to worry about being medically bankrupt someday.

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ozziegt@reddit (OP)

I have pretty good Health insurance right now and only pay $200 a month for our family. So the Healthcare is a wash for me, at least at my current employer.

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boring_pants@reddit

... European countries have private health care providers too if you're unhappy with the public health system.

You're living in the least racist country on earth stop watching tiktok brain rot and corporate media like MSNBC

Hope this helps

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zeke780@reddit

Have worked at FANG+ for a while, and a few people have left to go to European countries. They almost all come back for other reasons, typically just not making friends / lack of family but it can absolutely be done. I think the main thing is having the company behind you, in their cases they did and were able to transfer to the Amsterdam office or whatever. If you work at a smaller company you will have to play the contractor in a foreign land card and that will take a lot of buy in on their part and planning on yours.

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TangerineSorry8463@reddit

This is not a definitive "EU bad US good" by the way.

Not exactly. In Poland, for example, your notice period depends on how long you have been employed in one place. Under 6 months, it's 2 weeks. 6 months to 3 years, it's 1 month. 3 years or more, it's 3 months. So if you work in the same place for 3 years, you have a 3 month notice period, but you're competing against people whose notice period is 1 month. I've seen people quit before the 3 year mark specifically to avoid getting the longer notice period. Of course, the above does not apply to contractors hired on b2b contracts, so unless you're one as well, you're competing against them too.

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JeffMurdock_@reddit

In the US, you have to buy yourself quality of life (like health insurance)

Why do people keep parroting this in this sub? Most employers in the country offer top-notch insurance which puts the quality of healthcare at par or better than most state-run healthcare systems.

The US healthcare system is horrific for people who don’t work or have lower-wage or hourly jobs (so a huge proportion of people), but that’s not OP and that’s not most employed people in this sub.

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xt1nct@reddit

Well said, high earners holding strong positions have it good in the US.

I have a dual citizenship and could technically work anywhere in EU. Even with some medical issues, I have access to some of best medical facilities in the world. My job provides good healthcare with low max out of pocket.

US is tough for low wage workers as they are the ones who really need help and a stronger safety net.

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No_Structure7185@reddit

im from western europe and i would never wanna live and work in the US ... your working culture is crazy. idc about the extra money. i prefer having a safe job with work life balance. and proper health insurance etc 😄

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Fair_Atmosphere_5185@reddit

Devs in basic, no stress jobs make like double they would in Europe. If you can tolerate the stress - you can make many multiples of what you would earn in Europe.

You can find high and low stress environments.

I am an EU citizen in the US (from EE). My compensation in the US is around 1 year of pay =~ 5 years of pay in EE. My quality of living in the US is higher than anything I could close to achieve in Warsaw. 5000 SQ ft home in the mountains west of Denver, 3 car garage - I have a Wrangler literally just for fun. I work probably 20-30 hours a week and have maybe 1-2 weeks of crunch a year when there is an emergency or a project needs to be delivered. I've never had issues with health insurance I could solve with the money I save on not paying European tax rates.

The extra money means I can probably stop working in 10 years. We travel somewhere at least once a month - my wife took the kids to Europe 3 times this summer. I travel through the US more but I can be gone most weekends. Money can buy a lot of comfort.

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No_Structure7185@reddit

well, tbf i only get my information from the internet 😄 but good for you if you have a fun job and earn a ton of money. according to google the average sw engi salary in USA is double than what it is where i live. but average rent is way more expensive and food costs also doubled. but you probably have a way higher salary ceiling.

be that as it may.. USA still sounds too scary for me in many ways 😅

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Tecoloteller@reddit

Some people can really afford to ball out but that's called a disparity of wealth between the wealthy and the poor. I make a decent to good amount where I live but honestly I would 100% trade that to live in Europe. People idolize and focus on devs making insane amounts of money, but if I remember the stats most devs make <$100k a year. That's not poverty money but 3 car garage and Wrangler is not at all the norm. Factor in health care costs, rent, etc and American life is precarious. Most devs probably live an alright life but if you're ever put out of work for some time (a car accident or something else), you'll be stuck for thousands of dollars of debt and maybe not have a job. If you cant pay your rent for 1 month, you're screwed. If the stock market tanks, your retirement savings might be screwed. Also there are guns everywhere.

Pls enjoy the more sane and chill life you have over there. Help some of us Americans sneak out too 😂

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marvdl93@reddit

This is the reason why we shouldn't compare salaried employees working in EU versus USA. You should compare being a freelancer in EU with being a salaried employee in the USA. When you compare those fees, I don't know whether USA is that good actually.

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Fair_Atmosphere_5185@reddit

Most devs probably live an alright life but if you're ever put out of work for some time (a car accident or something else), you'll be stuck for thousands of dollars of debt and maybe not have a job. If you cant pay your rent for 1 month, you're screwed. If the stock market tanks, your retirement savings might be screwed.

This is not cscareerquestions. Unless you have an exceptional situation - most posters in this sub should own their home, have retirement savings, and have healthcare.

So how long have you been working and what have you been doing with your income that any of these things is even remotely a concern for you?

Also there are guns everywhere.

I'd have an easier time owning a fully automatic rifle from where I'm from than I would in the US...

As a percentage of your income - housing and food costs are far higher in Europe. Now granted, the food is generally speaking far better - but you can buy fresh organic ingredients here as well. I grow a ton of food as well since I have the space.

When you consider the amount of space you can get - it's not even in the same ballpark. I would not be able to afford a single family home of this size in Europe. And I have no desire to live in an apartment.

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ozziegt@reddit (OP)

Sounds like you and me are of like mind and lifestyle as well. I guess I just need to hope I never have to leave the US.

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Fair_Atmosphere_5185@reddit

Just make sure you in live in a liberal state - which given your salary you probably do.

Do you have citizenship in another country? Alot of my money is wrapped up in real estate which makes it hard to move. Maybe you lean towards owning more liquid investments in the case you need to get out.

The political climate in the country is not great. I'm keeping an eye on it - I've asked my wife to look at and consider what it would be like to live abroad. I'm still hopeful the country will manage to self-correct.

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xt1nct@reddit

I have a relaxed non tech job. I earn close to $200k, have relaxed unlimited pto, have good health insurance, the work life balance is amazing and not matched by my EU friends.

I do have a bit of a unicorn position but these companies and jobs exist.

However, consider there are people with 10 years of experience often earning $300k+ total comp. You can live frugally and retire after 20 years.

A lot of EU countries have citizenship tests and language proficiency tests that basically act to keep jobs away from foreigners.

Germany is the one I am most familiar with. You need to be able to speak German, doesn't matter if everyone on the team can speak English, and if someone applies with a higher proficiency than you (native Germans) then the job will go to them.

Honestly, pretty classic Germany. Come up with a very official process, with standardized tests, lots of paperwork, all to unofficially keep immigrants away.

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marvdl93@reddit

What a surprise that you need to speak the native language of the country you're residing in. It's not like we speak Chinese in software firms in the Bay Area either, right?

If they start doing illegal / shady shit to us citizens

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danielrheath@reddit

start doing illegal / shady shit to US citizens

"Start"? You are clearly not seeing the same news sources I am.

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ozziegt@reddit (OP)

Us citizens are getting released very quickly, they haven't figured out a way to illegally jail or deport us citizens yet.

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nothingiscomingforus@reddit

I agree. I am starting my Canadian citizenship through descendanty process. But would I leave right away? No. There’s a few bellwethers to look out for. Long term citizen detainment would be one. Biden being murdered or something would be another.

It definitely makes sense to start getting a backup plan. And I am. But I’m not yet at “get the hell out now”. My wife and is total comp here is very high and we will take a huge hit moving, plus family is farther, it’s not like a no brainer to just uproot your whole life.

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Helpjuice@reddit

So you could technically work anywhere in the world where you are eligible to work. The pay is so high in the USA because that is just how much it costs to live in the USA. Other places live on way less of what would be considered to cover the essentials and live ok without any issues e.g., UK, European countries, Africa, Asia, you name it.

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user_74116@reddit

True, cost of living varies a lot, and what’s considered 'enough' depends on where you are.

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AchillesDev@reddit

I spend a few months a year in the EU working, and am strongly considering a move once my dual citizenship finalizes. There are a few ways to do this:

1) Work for a company that trusts you, has no presence in your target country (this affects things like a digital nomad visa and taxes for your company), and will allow you to work from abroad. Be careful, they may use it as an excuse to cut your pay. You will need a digital nomad visa or something similar. Be prepared to work US hours.
2) Start your own consultancy, and target customers in the US. Incorporate in the US, charge US prices. You don't need other people's permission to move, you will still need a DN visa or something similar and will probably have to keep US hours too.
3) Work for a local company. You'll take a big salary hit, competing with local talent, which will be compounded if you don't speak the local language. There's a lot of hassle to do this, and you won't qualify for a DN visa, you'll have to do a more arduous working visa that requires sponsorship.

Salary is 250k. Didn't want to put it in the main post

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Syntactico@reddit

It's possible to get that as an independent contractor/C-suite in Northern Europe (minus the funny money). But as others say, you probably wont need as much as you would in the US. Especially if you wanna build a family.

I make about what you make in Norway, and I live a lavish lifestyle.

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kintax@reddit

If it's a public company, RSUs are as good as cash.

I've noticed most jobs now aren't posed in the US because of the price discrepancy. I suspect US salaries for jobs that can be done remote will trend towards the global average over time.

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ozziegt@reddit (OP)

Company is still private which is why I consider it funny money. Don't really plan on it being worth much

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kintax@reddit

Yeah, unless you're confident they are close to a liquidity event, I'd give that an expected value of maybe 10% of what they value it at.

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zkareface@reddit

You can get that in Europe.

Top technical roles pay up to around 400k in EU.

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ozziegt@reddit (OP)

Which companies?

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Jeff_Johnson@reddit

Mine is ca 100K in Europe, but there are many other things that are cheaper such as Kindergarden, Health-care, much more of free time. If you you are young and have no kids I will stay little bit more and try to save for a buffer. If you can buy a house immediately, you will live quite easy life afterwards. My biggest expense is unfortunately mortgage, and without it I will live like a king with my kid and wife who don’t work.

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apartment-seeker@reddit

Europe is an option, but anti-muslim sentiment is hardly better here.

It's definitely generally worse in Europe, which also does not have the same degree of religious freedom as the US does.

(I'm not trying to defend the US too hard or anything; I am also Muslim American and also considering emigrating--whether or not shit truly hits the fan).

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Maert@reddit

Western Europe has plenty of religious freedom, and the anti Muslim sentiment is very different per country.

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random_throws_stuff@reddit

hardly better there

considerfi@reddit

Wow that's awesome. Good to know. Is the 130k job easy to get? Like is that average pay for a 14 yoe swe job? If you got laid off would you expect to find that again?

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QueenAlucia@reddit

I think it’s a bit above average for the area, if I got laid off I would find another one around 105k easily (within a few weeks) and can probably land a similar paying one within a few monts.

But also, I’m at a point in my career that my jobs come from other people recommending me usually so I may not be up to date on the market. What I can tell is that I know other senior devs in London and we all earn around that much and have similar YOE. It might be biaised a bit as most are working for small companies. But I think with a big company you’d get RSUs or similar + bonuses

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considerfi@reddit

Good to know. Thanks.

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libre_office_warlock@reddit

I don't even care about salary at this point. I just want to escape in the first place. If I don't get a job, I will apply for another degree or some kind of training program in another industry if I can access it.

I haven't gone super hard-core in looking, but it's been tough. 10 YOE in startups; recruiter emails left and right within the U.S. that I keep turning down if they won't offer the ability to work overseas (which is practically all of them). Got a grand total of two calls in the past few months, one where they called it a 'vibe check' that I guess I didn't pass, the other from a Helsinki (my dream place to live) startup where they said, 'You sound like you wouldn't like the open office, honestly,' and I had to say 'well, you're not wrong...'.

I would give up remoteness to leave but I didn't want to plead in the moment.

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master117jogi@reddit

without a big hit to our quality of life

This is a very funny statement. Because right now you want to move out of the US. Which means your quality of life , while it may seem high, is actually terrible. So terrible it makes you want to move. You only think it's high because you have high purchasing power.

Yes, your purchasing power goes down, but your overall quality of life will go up

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ozziegt@reddit (OP)

No, it's really good. It's the current political climate and how quickly things are changing which is giving me pause. It didn't take very long for the Nazis to come to power and start killing Jews. Things can change very quickly.

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supyonamesjosh@reddit

I don’t even know if that is true. For 99.99% of people making OP money you can basically buy your way out of any serious issues. You can live in progressive places because you can live anywhere.

Fleeing the US is dumb imho because there are plenty of places in America that are still way better for Americans than basically anywhere they can reasonably move easily to.

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counterweight7@reddit

Northeast CS PhD here: yes. We are not invincible, but we are like a different country.

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arihoenig@reddit

You can't get away from global fascism. It will reach out and get you anywhere in the world. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

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cbunn81@reddit

I'm sure you know this already, but this is a complex topic with no easy answers or "best" solutions. There are a lot variables. So any advice will necessarily be in generalities unless we know more details.

To the main point, yes, your salary will be lower in any other country unless you keep a US-based job and work remotely. That works for some people. But don't forget that most other countries also have a much lower cost of living. Not the least of which is that universal healthcare is a thing in most of the developed world. So if you were to be able to make a lateral move to another country, odds are you wouldn't be too worse off. Particularly if it alleviates some anxiety about the future.

But money is just one part of the story.

First of all, you have to actually obtain residency in another country. This is generally not an easy task. Many countries require that an employer sponsor you. But why would a company hire you from abroad when they can hire someone locally? You have to make a compelling case that is more than "I don't want to live in the US anymore." And what about your partner? Will they also be able to find employment?

What country or countries were you thinking about? Do you have any ties to another country? Do you speak another language?

I live in Japan. Salaries for devs are much, much lower here. But as I mentioned, the cost of living is also a lot lower. Does it even out? Not really. It would depend on where I would be in the US, but I'd almost certainly be taking home a lot more money adjusted for cost of living in the US than I do here.

I'm okay with this because I really enjoy living in Japan. I do sometimes think about how much more I'd make in the US (not to mention missing my family), but there's so much I'm happy to not have to deal with. Maybe someday I'll move back, but it's not going to be in the near term. The tricky part is that if I plan to retire in the US, I can't stay in Japan for too long, since I'll need a bigger retirement fund than my salary here can manage.

There are absolutely compromises. I'm not sure what kind of lifestyle you live, but I try to keep it simple. And that's pretty easy in Japan. Of course, many things are more difficult, particularly when it's in a language you have yet to master. There are also the cultural differences. But we don't do things because they're easy; we do them because that's what we want to do.

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koreth@reddit

Not the least of which is that universal healthcare is a thing in most of the developed world.

This is true, but OP should be aware that they may or may not get full access to the local healthcare system depending on which country they end up in and what kind of legal residency they have. In some countries with public healthcare systems, certain categories of non-citizens are required to pay for private health insurance, and the insurance is sometimes not amazing (pre-existing conditions excluded, limited network of doctors, etc.)

Not saying it should be a showstopper for OP, and it may not even be an issue depending on the destination. Just something worth researching before making a move.

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cbunn81@reddit

Fair point. This is especially relevant if someone is thinking of keeping their US employment and working remotely from another country on a digital nomad or other non-resident visa.

Out-of-pocket costs for care that's not covered will often still be much lower than in the US, though.

It's pretty shocking as an American who is used to stories of people forced into bankruptcy by healthcare costs to see what things cost in another country. It's amazing what's possible when your healthcare industry isn't held hostage by lobbyists.

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PineappleLemur@reddit

Cost of living is also high...

You need to find a place that have a similar or better Buying Power.

Salaries mean nothing without knowing how much everything else costs.

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standduppanda@reddit

Quality of life isn’t all about money. Depends where you go but we spend so much on things that people in other countries don’t. Healthcare, childcare, education, just to name a few.

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yesman_85@reddit

Those poor devs in any other country having such poor qol. I mean not having to live in the US is a good plus.

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Dysvalence@reddit

Remember that when shit truly hits the fan your quality of life is crashing to zero, and that historical and current examples of shit hitting the fan are really fucking ugly.

The government is legitimately sending masked goons to round up people who merely look Hispanic, as well as legal immigrants who have expressed negative views of Israel. Get your head out of your ass.

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HoratioWobble@reddit

I think you should with "What quality of life am I trying to achieve" and then look at what it takes to achieve that in another country.

I'm in the UK, our salaries are far lower than the US on the top end.

But say something like £100k, which is considered a high salary here would give you a very comfortable life here outside of London, whilst still being lower than some junior devs where you are.

Trying to compare salaries 1 to 1 just isn't a realistic approach to moving country.

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EnderMB@reddit

A lot of people are missing the point.

My in-laws retired at 60 with around £750k in the bank, and they now live in France in a four bedroom house with a pool. That's principal FAANG money in a year...

It's all about cost of living. What would cost you $3-5m in a HCOL city will cost you far less elsewhere.

If you were only paid $1000 a year, but you could live comfortably on $200 a year, with healthcare and a good pension, who gives a fuck if the number is lower?

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ToughStreet8351@reddit

Somehow I doubt most principals earn 1 million a year

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mysterybratwurst@reddit

What kind of calamity is expected to hit the US again, OP

Are you on a different planet?

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claythearc@reddit

Switzerland has comparable salaries but immigration is hard. Canada has lower but still solid salaries, immigration is easier. The rest of Europe you will be poor but everyone is poor so it evens out

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5611119599@reddit

you won't be an expat, you will be a migrant

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Cahnis@reddit

You are not shackled by anything but yourself. You like the money though.

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putin_my_ass@reddit

I'm Canadian. I would much rather live here and deal with the "hit to [my] quality of life".

Why?

My quality of life here is very high. You can't measure that by salary.

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bwainfweeze@reddit

I haven’t found an EU company yet that is interested in having devs who work during their nighttime. And South American companies, I’ve seen a few but some of them want Spanish speakers.

So… that leaves the US and Canada.

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ClideLennon@reddit

In 2009 I took a Microsoft contact with Wipro in Redmond. All my coworkers were Indian, except for one Ethiopian. When talking to them, I was very curious about moving to Hyderabad, and continuing to work for Wipro there, but they ultimately talked me out of it. They told me I could live as I do in the US, have a cook and a driver in addition. But at the end of the year, my savings would be MUCH less. Ultimately they said, everyone is trying to move from India to the US, not the other way around.

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Pyran@reddit

Don't most us companies pay less of you move abroad?

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a_library_socialist@reddit

If you're working for a foreign subsidiary of a US company, yes, lots of time.

If you're working remotely for a US company (usually will require 1099 or B2B), it can depend.

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Deranged40@reddit

Feels weird to call it "shackles" that makes me continue to choose the higher salaries on this side of the pond.

I'm not at all opposed to looking at opportunities abroad. So long as I can work remotely from my US home like I already do, and of course if the price is right.

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jimRacer642@reddit

I can attest. In the US I make $200k after wages and taxes but in europe, I would make almost $30k after wages and taxes. That kind of cut is just VERY hard for me to swallow. It's like going back to internship level.

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SawToothKernel@reddit

I don't know how we can seriously do this without a big hit to our quality of life

Have you looked at the Quality of Life Index recently? There are plenty of countries above the US.

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nsxwolf@reddit

Hey guys, not really sure what the best way to advance my career is when Trump starts genociding my family.

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peteraproba@reddit

Do you have the right to work in any country other than the US?

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freekayZekey@reddit

Are US devs shackled to the US job market?

where have you been the past twenty years? been that way for a while. us devs are usually the highest paid (probably a little too much, but i’ll take it).

Did you have to make compromises?

they likely just adjusted to the market pay and enjoy things like a better social safety net.

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Common_Fudge7374@reddit

I would think the bigger barrier would be visa sponsorship in your preferred destination

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_ideefixe@reddit

Are we shackled to the US job market? Don't be ridiculous. Software/tech as a field has relatively easy opportunities for international mobility due to visa programs aimed at skilled workers, entrepreneurs, digital nomads. etc. Most other professions to not have that same flexibility.

Moving out of the US market will almost certainly come with a significant salary and total comp downgrade. How that impacts your cost of living and quality of life depends a lot on your individual needs and priorities. Some people feel better off despite earning a lower salary because of subsidies and social welfare programs (e.g., for higher education and childcare) or because they prefer their lifestyle abroad. Others find it difficult to save money or to afford a lifestyle at the level of comfort they had in the US, or they only find limited career growth opportunities in the local market.

If you have cash savings from working in the US to help you get set up abroad you're in a much better position than someone just starting out.

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chmod777@reddit

What is your citizenship status?

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servicetime@reddit

How would this work with taxes? You'd still have to pay US taxes, and on top of that your new countries taxes also?

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thiagomiranda3@reddit

Man, I'm from Brazil and work for an US company earning 100k USD annually. I live as a true king here in Brazil. The amount of money is so high on relation to the cost of living, that I can barely find what to do with all this money lol.

So now I'm mostly investing to retire before 40

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dragon_irl@reddit

But the salaries in the US are so high compared to the rest of the world I don't know how we can seriously do this without a big hit to our quality of life.

Money != Quality of life.

Theres the obvious difference of purchasing power, but even after that there are many less quantifiable factors like ample holidays, less car centric infrastructure, less crime, better social security nets, less homeless people, etc. that can drastically increase quality of life without having more purchasing power.

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Bookseller_@reddit

I’d love to know why salaries for experienced software engineers in Germany are so extremely low while the companies are extremely profitable.

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rahga@reddit

Salaries being high in the US compared to the rest of the world had an element of geopolitical influence in it - gas is still traded in $$$$ - but also something of a guarantee that you'll get what you pay for.

Employers are speedrunnning the death of that sort of promise by cutting salaries and promising steaks on hot dog budgets. There's nothing that can stop it at this point. Wages in the US will keep falling. It's now a race for US developers to pay off debts and student loans while they can, or spend the rest of their lives suffering if they fail.

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ToughStreet8351@reddit

Point is… life is also cheaper outside of the US.

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ScudsCorp@reddit

lol COL in Seattle over the last 20 years

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pacman2081@reddit

I am not sure of your personal preferences in terms of going abroad. You can explore opportunities in Dubai and Malaysia. I am not sure how much you will like it professionally.

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Errvalunia@reddit

I moved to Berlin and took a paycut of 40% or so.

My rent was a bit cheaper, I didn’t have a car, food was way cheaper, day care is free, there’s easy access to reasonably priced vacations and I wasn’t stashing away money for medical bills. I honestly barely tracked my budget and still was net positive every month with my savings growing.

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RandyHoward@reddit

Shackled? Definitely not. Yes, US salaries are very high compared to the rest of the world, but so is the cost of living in the US. You also have to remember that those massive 200k+ salaries are not what every experienced dev is earning in America, maybe not even most make that much. Only the huge corporations are paying like that. A lot of us don't work for those huge corporations and aren't making that kind of money.

I'm an American working remotely for a company in the Netherlands. While I'm paid less than my friends employed by American companies, I receive better benefits than they do. Most people I know in America get 1-2 weeks of vacation time, while I get a minimum of 21 days per year. Most of my friends have some amount deducted from their paychecks for health insurance, while my employer covers those amounts 100%, and they also fully cover my vision and dental plans too. Not sure if that's common to non-American companies though.

I may not be making the 200k+ that I could be making in a large American corporation, but I am living pretty comfortably on my 140k salary in a low cost of living area of the U.S. And I can't say I've had to make any compromises. I haven't increased my lifestyle since I broke 6 figures a decade ago, so the only compromise I'm really making is how quickly I can reach retirement.

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PabloZissou@reddit

Well in Europe we have 30 working days of vacations that's 6 weeks and that does not count sick leaves. So I take the pay cut everytime

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chicknfly@reddit

Suck it up, buttercup. As an American engineer who lived in Canada for a few years (and is a moderator for a BC town), it’s safe to say foreign wages, at least in Canada, are normalized to what a “normal” skilled worker would earn. And even then, the market is beyond saturated.

So, here’s something to keep in mind. Let’s say with 20+ YOE, you’re in your 40’s, maybe 50’s. Assuming you’re trying to move permanently, we’ll say in 15-20 years you’re going to need more in-depth healthcare. The security of basic needs being met, to be able to see a doctor without worrying and receive prescriptions without being nickels and dimed, is a nice feeling of security. Granted, the Canadian healthcare system isn’t without issues, too, and the right wing is trying its best to privatize it closer to the American system. (Alberta’s politics is generally considered equivalent to Canadian MAGA)

With that said, you will see a hit to your pay. There’s no question about it. Your best bet there is to either find globally remote work (start in the US first) or start a business of your own. There are visas specifically for entrepreneurs.

Not that I’m trying to fearmonger, but the border agents have become increasingly more hostile toward people traveling to/from, and racial profiling is very much a thing. If you move and still want to travel, understand the risks and have all of your documentation ready to minimize issues.

I can only speak for living in Canada. I loved it. Had a remote job in a rural area in BC. It’s a slice of heaven that I couldn’t find in the US, and I’d give up inflated salaries for normal pay all over again. With the said, the country isn’t perfect, so for anyone moving there, you NEED to research social differences, politics, and economy.

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ozziegt@reddit (OP)

My in laws live in Toronto and I am pretty familiar with housing, cost of living, Healthcare, climate etc and it would not be something I want to do. It would be an option but the cost of living is just as high or higher as the us but salaries are half. At least in the Toronto area.

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considerfi@reddit

Cost of housing is shocking in Toronto, I agree.

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ozziegt@reddit (OP)

Yeah. Canada is our "oh shit we have to leave" option since my wife and kids all have Canadian citizenship

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YetMoreSpaceDust@reddit

There aren't very many countries that are as welcoming to foreigners as the United States, either - especially considering that computer programming went from being one of the most desirable skills to one of the least desirable over night.

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Osr0@reddit

Assuming you're a U.S. citizen I'm Just gonna throw this out there:

New Zealand and Australia are looking for people like us and are more than willing to fast track your residency and citizenship
Getting residency in the Netherlands requires registering a business and depositing $5000 into that business's bank account. Don't quote me on this, but I believe maintaining that residency is as easy as making $2k/month over the next 2 years. You could move to Netherlands, open a business, and then do your current work remotely. Also this program permits your spouse to also work in the Netherlands.

Most scenarios that have you fleeing the country when SHTF is also going to involve a significantly reduced quality of life. Go ahead and plan for that to be part of it.

Set up your BOL now in an area that has a favorable exchange rate and stock it with ammo, canned foods, gold, local cash, etc. Cigarettes and alcohol will also be great for barter.

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andrevanduin_@reddit

Once the US Gestapo comes knocking at your door to put you in Trump's gulag your salary will drop to 0 dollars. Then it will be easy to beat your salary in some European country.

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SquiffSquiff@reddit

If your priorities are:

high comp
Muslim friendly
non-white people friendly

Then you could certainly do worse than check out UAE where companies are actively recruiting in tech at the moment

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Tundur@reddit

Ethics are grey at the best of time in the corporate world, but the UAE is literally a hub of modern slavery and is actively committing genocide in South Sudan.

only if the goal is getting the best value for the grind. In the US market is high pay but high cost to live here but is the top market to make the most and much more if you willing to grind hard for it. Which has its pros and cons such as burn out.

Other markets pay less, less stress and hours, with the con that you are expected to resolve critical issues as quickly if you were in the US market.

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SanityAsymptote@reddit

You will always take a hit to salary and likely QOL by leaving the US market.

I've been seriously doing the math on getting out of here since 2024 and even the most lateral hypothetical to London or Zurich is a huge financial and QOL hit. Remote jobs are not as common in the EU and things like business and property ownership are extremely complicated, restrictive, and expensive there.

you don't have healthcare or all the other safety nets every country outside the US will give you, also think about your kids and the kinds education and future they could have outside the us.

fyi Canadian here, who lived in nyc.

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patio-garden@reddit

Check out r/amerexit. I can't tell you anything from personal experience, but stay safe.