Are we witnessing a new malaise era in the eu?
Posted by Secret_Physics_9243@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 78 comments
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Posted by Secret_Physics_9243@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 78 comments
[removed]
PubliusDeLaMancha@reddit
Cars are generally better than ever.
People have no money
ILikeYourMommaJokes@reddit
No, cars have more safety assistants and sensors, but overall quality has plummeted across all brands.
OldAdvertising5963@reddit
May be some cars are better.
I rented new Toyota Corolla station wagon and it was unbearable with intrusive driver aids and chimes you can never turn off permanently.
They replaced it with new WV Golf station wagon and it is even worse. It drives like a car with early Auto transmission circa 1990s. Every time it changes gear it makes ultrasonic sound. The rattles from the cabin are terrible.
I looked at Audi A4 2025 , what a cheap garbage interior. Did not drive so dont know how bad it is.
The only rental car that was fine is Mercedes A class.
bigolorangecat@reddit
You can turn them off in 5 seconds but I guess we're just lying now
OldAdvertising5963@reddit
They come back up every time you restart the car. There is no permanent off option.
Imaginary_Act_3956@reddit
Did the A-Class's interior creak from everywhere like an old Nissan?
I suggest you to try out some of the new Renaults and Peugeots.
OldAdvertising5963@reddit
No, the interior was as solid as my G wagen
jooosh8696@reddit
My experience of new Corolla estates has been great, they're not exciting but do the job well and are reliable. And decently comfy and roomy (for what they are)
bobovicus@reddit
In terms of what?
Sure, they all drive pretty well. In terms of quality? Absolutely not. Quality has taken a huge nose dive since the pandemic; both incidentally, and on purpose. For example, Mercedes went from having some of the best quality interiors to ripping off of Tesla of all companies.
Honda seemingly can’t get their shit together with forced induction engines with head gaskets failing left and right. Toyota’s twin turbo V6 is having a boatload of issues that people here are already familiar with. Hyundai can’t build a proper ICCU, or LED light strip for that matter.
TurkeyBLTSandwich@reddit
All the luxury companies saw that Tesla was charging absolutely bonkers prices for total dog interiors and wanted in on the action. So they matched Tesla on the cheaper materials and touch screens but not the ev drive train and software. So now you have crappy interiors, with crappy software, and small liter engines or rushed ev drive trains.
The 2010s had some bangers that arent being replicated. Not sure where MB, BMW and Audi go from here. Oh and electronically actuated door locks? Why just why? Yes Lexus that's you
KanterBama@reddit
Can you link a recent article confirming that? Pretty sure that was an early issue in the assembly process that has not only since been resolved, but Toyota has recalled and replaced all affected models as of, like, 2023.
EggNogEpilog@reddit
I'm a tech. We keep seeing tundra engines failing with manufacturing dates into late 2024. 2025s I assume will probably continue to also, they just don't have enough miles yet. The shit thing for the customer is (and for us being paid flat rate under warranty time) the engines are outside of the recall. So all engine failures outside the recall don't get the full drop in turn-key long block replacement, they get a short block with mixed new & reused parts as needed to assemble the engine again.
With that said, you make your own judgment whether it was just a QC issue of loose machining debris, or something else more inherent to the design.
KanterBama@reddit
So just anecdotal evidence then, and on only one Toyota model, you’re not even gonna make up seeing Sequoias too? Neat-o gang, tell me about your Ferrari next.
I know three people who own Toyotas with the engine, all without issue, all bought in 2024; since anecdotal evidence means so much.
EggNogEpilog@reddit
Damn, look what just rolled across my youtube feed the day after I posted that. The first 5-10 minutes confirms EVERY point i made.
https://youtu.be/eFxUw-O8s90
But sure, I'm just some random dumbass. Not like I'm seeing this shit first hand as a dealership MDT who has personally lost money having to do short block rebuilds under warranty pay instead of the recall long block. You probably haven't even worked in the automotive industry and have no idea what i mean when i talk about warranty vs recall flat rate pay scales and how this issue is screwing techs in the industry.
What experience or authority do you have on the subject? Why are you dick riding an obviously massive issue and stain on the Toyota line up like you're on their PR or legal team?
I get it, i can see you bought a GRC and want to feel reassured in your purchase. Best advice i can give, just keep an eye out for leaks on the the oil feed and return lines from your turbo to avoid the fire issue a select few people reported having. Toyota is a phenomenal company more often than almost any other brand, but they missed the mark massively with this engine.
KanterBama@reddit
I was legitimately just asking for recent evidence because the only things I could find were posted over 18 months ago. One comment saying “I’m a tech” then only claiming to see half the affected models seemed suspicious, I apologize. I’m looking for a truck to buy to tow my WRX, this is actually pertinent information to me, I appreciate it.
Thank you, I’m glad you actually provided one unlike that other guy who just name-called me. That guy fucking sucks.
bobovicus@reddit
If you graduated high school, you’d know what anecdotal evidence actually is.
KanterBama@reddit
Still can’t find a recent article to link big guy?
bobovicus@reddit
Good lord you smell bad
KanterBama@reddit
Wow, I had not seen that yet, thank you for presenting the facts of your argument like a grown up.
Imaginary_Act_3956@reddit
The new Benz interiors creak like Nicki Minaj.
Meanwhile all eight of my Hyundais ('24 Io6, '25 Io5, '22 Tucson, '22 Bayon, '24 i20, '18 Ioniq, '25 S. Fe and '24 Io5) have nice Nicki Minaj-looking interiors but they don't creak unlike Nicki herself.
CreatorMunk1@reddit
You have eight cars?
Sevisstillonkashyyyk@reddit
Maybe homie owns a used Hyundai dealership
bobovicus@reddit
Any ICCU failures yet?
TealPotato@reddit
Hyundai struggled for years with building a car that doesn't fry taillights all the time (I have one in my fleet). There's even a Facebook page for spotting Hyundais and Kias with burnt lights in the wild.
I struggle to believe that these folks could then turn an make a quality EV.
bobovicus@reddit
The latest current Kona is having issues with the front LED light bar giving out. Some things never change.
chasetherightenergy@reddit
In cars models that’d cost 20k euro 10 years ago are now far above 30k. New cars have gotten insanely expensive
Nyxlo@reddit
I don't know if something changed in Europe more regarding the pricing, but in the US, base 2015 Corolla was $16,950 and 2025 is $23,520. $16,950 in 2015 is about $23,100 so adjusting for inflation, there's almost no price difference.
Nass44@reddit
I think the difference in Europe is, we had really cheap and simple small cars before, that nowadays don’t get produced anymore. Until a few years ago almost every big manufacturer had one of these super simple small cars. 1.0 3-pot, stereo from 2001, 2 speakers, no extras. Just a steering wheel, 3 pedals and a handbrake. 3 or 5 doors. Hubcaps. Electric windows if you ticked a box.
Think VW Up/Skoda Citigo/ Seat Mii, Toyota Aygo/Peugeot 107 and 108/Citröen C1, Fiat Panda, Ford Ka, Dacia Logan/Sandero, Renault Twingo/Smart Forfour.
These could be had for less than 10.000€ and provided man people with basic, simple transportation, where public transportation wasn’t available. All these cars don’t exist anymore. One part was for sure a push by the EU for more safety equipment and features, but these cars simply didn’t generate a lot of profit with super small margins.
In the same time frame, one class up things also got shaken up, as a lot of these smaller cars got more premium (VW Polo, Peugeot 208 etc.) with more standard features or where simply discontinued I favour of SUVs or more lifestyle oriented, bigger cars (e.g. Ford Fiesta or Fiat Punto).
Additionally, the small MPV died as well, forcing customers to not get the same size SUV, but rather a class up to fit their space needs and still have a higher seating position (think Golf Plus/sportsvan, Ford B-Max, Opel Meriva, Peugeot 1007, Citröen C3 Picasso).
The only brands who still cater to that market are essentially Dacia, as well as Hyundai and Kia.
Other small cars are either EVs a d naturally more expensive and smaller cars from non European brands like the Honda Jazz and Toyota Yaris have gotten quite expensive as well since they only come as Hybrids and start just shy of 30.000€ in most markets.
You get more car for your money nowadays (although that’s debatable with most SUVs), but the entry barrier has moved quite a bit as well, it’s not just inflation. If you’d spec a 2010 Polo with the same features as the 2025 base model it’s a lot closer adjusted for inflation.
MachKeinDramaLlama@reddit
It’s the same in Europe.
Quick_Coyote_7649@reddit
Some cars are genuinely too pricey, but a lot are priced accordingly and even priced lower then what they should be based on inflation and buyers just want those cars to be $3.99.
Burntarchitect@reddit
Prices only going up with inflation isn't much consolation when your wages have been stagnant for fifteen years.
Quick_Coyote_7649@reddit
That doesn’t have anything to do with the CEOs choosing pricing though, that’s a employer thing and there’s even more to do that because while there’s a lot of buisnesses who haven’t raised rheid wages as much as they should’ve by not, there’s quite a lot who should’ve. That’s been the matter of decades too.
Burntarchitect@reddit
Pardon?
Secret_Physics_9243@reddit (OP)
Better for who? The average people maybe yes, if those people don't plan on keeping them for more than 7 years, that is until something in the engine either falls or they become too expensive to maintain.
For the entusiast that actually cares about the driving more than their infotainment screen(s), absolutley not.
Fydron@reddit
Only good thing about modern cars is the safety other than that nothing interests me about modern cars too much tech and too boring.
Even if I had money o would buy 30+ year old car.
RAMBIGHORNY@reddit
You get what you vote for
goot449@reddit
It’ll be a while before I buy a post-covid vehicle
peopeopeopeo10@reddit
They're making great cars, but totally unaffordable for the average european enthusiast.
Harder access to credit, higher tax, higher cost of fuel and higher insurance makes it much more different to get a performance car here, compared to for example the US, or even Australia.
Also, we lost every sports coupe. GR86 gone because of crash test and emissions. GR Yaris gone in most countries. The only hot hatch left in the whole market is the Golf GTI. Everything else is electric or gone.
Ford Performance is gone, Renault Sport is gone and Alpine is full Electric. Peugeot Sport is full electric (508 PSE gone), Opel GSE only electric, Abarth only electric, Alfa Romeo only available in diesel, every other Alfa is an SUV.
Bmw cool as ever but even an M240 is for the elites in most countries. M340 and M3s only for rich people in most countries (exclude maybe Germany and a few others).
While supercars and performance cars are super cool, for the average enthusiast is full on malaise in Europe.
Imayormaynotneedhelp@reddit
Wait, can you not even get a new Mazda MX-5 in the EU? I know the new emissions rules are hard to meet but goddamn.
Imaginary_Act_3956@reddit
I'm planning on getting either the Alpine A290, the Peugeot e-208 GTi or the Opel Mokka GSe.
Quick_Coyote_7649@reddit
Amg has continued to have high and higher sales even after the C63 got a 4 cylinder and since the e63 hasnt been on sale. There’s plenty of amgs for people to buy besides them
peopeopeopeo10@reddit
Yes, but they're counting the A35 in that number. Plus the huge, huge amount of G63 and GLE63s.
C63 and GLC63 are less than 5% of the AMG range
Quick_Coyote_7649@reddit
And they’re also counting the glc43, s63, sl63 r performace, sl43. SL55, sl63, c43. GT43, gt55, gt63, CLE53 and there amg EQ models.
peopeopeopeo10@reddit
Amongst these, how many are enthusiast cars tho? I've driven most of them, probably only the CLE53 is enjoyable. AMG GT new gen is full-on GT with not too much engagement, even tho the engine is supreme and the steering is surprisinglu good
Quick_Coyote_7649@reddit
The topic wasn’t a matter of how many enthuasit cars contribute to amg sales.
Secret_Physics_9243@reddit (OP)
Yeah, g wagons straight to dubai
Joooooooosh@reddit
EV development costs have massively reduced development and manufacturing budgets for ICE cars.
It’s pretty easy to see how manufacturers spreading themselves so thin, has resulted in poor products as they attempt to hedge their bets and offer every form of propulsion they can, to see which way the market goes.
This is against a backdrop of China subsidising its motor industry and the EU market being flooded by cheap Chinese cars built in factories subject to NONE of the expensive and difficult regulations EU factories are.
The EU imposing a lot of restrictions on manufacturing is great for us all long term but allowing cars not built in the same responsible way to out compete, is very stupid.
The EU has essentially doomed its own car makers by just making it impossible to compete fairly unless they shift their manufacturing out of European nations. Which is what we’ve been seeing happen.
Uncertainty about the banning of ICE cars is also making it super difficult to know where to invest R&D.
Other regs like mandatory ADAS has also not just pushed up the prices to develop and build cars but made them super unappealing to buyers. Combine that with struggling economies and you have a recipe for people buying no cars or just buying whatever is cheaper.
DrinkRedbuII@reddit
The chinese cars are crazy cheap. So cheap I see a lot of them daily, very common. How can the western brand compete...
Darktrooper007@reddit
With tariffs high enough to offset China's massive subsidies and deplorable working conditions.
I'm generally in favor of free trade, but only between fully developed economies. Against rival nations like China that use underhanded means to get ahead, tariffs are a necessary evil.
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Secret_Physics_9243@reddit (OP)
Which is why i made the paralel with the malaise era, our brands are so confused what the people want and they are very close to ditching the glorious wuality reputation to compete with mass produced temu soapbars
Ririsforehead@reddit
Unconditionally yes.
The Xiami Yu7 is the bitchslap to european makers that the LS400 was back when.
And this is after years of penny-pinching, paint-thinning, badge-removing, piano-blackin, subcription-selling bullshit.
Arrogance and complacency.
Imaginary_Act_3956@reddit
Same case with the Ioniq 6.
I own one and I can pretend that I'm a Nicki Minaj alter ego while driving it.
Ririsforehead@reddit
I am seriously considering the Ioniq 6 N. Should be an absolute riot.
Knifehead27@reddit
European cars have consolidated into 2-3 major conglomerates. Making a change of course a slower process.
German cars have fallen off on quality materials and haven't fallen in price to compensate.
Stellantis started quite well off, for them, because of high margins but ended up with a lot of inventory and an aging lineup since COVID.
Pretty much all of them bet a lot on full electrification. A lot of which is still in development and they're seeing themselves needing to pivot back to ICE and hybrids because electric car adoption isn't going as well as they expected.
thescouselander@reddit
Yes, new cars are worse than previously.
My situation - I've got a 2021 330i with various options like M Sport pro package including active suspension and M Sport diff. It's also got the usual features for the time like leather seats, ambient lighting and real buttons.
The dealer is trying to sell me a new 3 series which comes with cloth seats, no ambient lighting, less power, standard suspension, standard diff, real buttons replaced with a touch screen and annoying EU mandated nag devices. With price increases and the cost of finance the monthlies would also be more expensive.
Some things like leather seats and ambient lighting can be added back at cost but not everything. BMW simply cannot supply a car as good as the one I've got unless I upgrade to a 340.
I recently looked at an Audi A5 saloon as a potential alternative but I was disappointed. On the test drive - interior seemed cheap with some of it having detached and the steering wheel feeling very thin. Luke warm perfmance. The pedals felt cheaply constructed somehow and the brakes felt bad because they were over assisted and there was no feel for modulation. When pushed there was a lot of engine intake noise intrusion into the car - it sounded bad. The salesman was very keen to focus on the massive screen which admittedly did look good but my impression is that this car is all about the screen and nothing else - effectively an iPhone on wheels.
Bottom line - we've passed peak car.
Imaginary_Act_3956@reddit
They are both G20s.......BMW has fallen a long way.
thescouselander@reddit
Yeah, LCI 1 was far better then LCI 2 for sure.
Purrchil@reddit
No.
A plush or soft plastics interior has nothing to do with quality. I read this a lot, and it always a giveaway that the people telling it don’t always know a lot about car quality.
The softlack interiors from the 2000 were absolutely nice. For as long as they lasted. A hard plastic interior that can be cleaned with agressive products can have much higher quality and durability than a soft interior with soft plastics. Also don’t forget that there are always higher standards regarding to chemicals (plastic softeners etc) which car manufacturers have to follow. But you will never read this in car reviews. Car manufacturers don’t just do what they like: they have to follow rules. And yes they have to safeguard profit.
99% of the people couldn’t care less that the glove box of their car is hard plastic without felt liner.
Car quality is higher than ever, I think. The safety that a modern car offers (including passive) is extreme. Corrosion protection is way higher than in the so called era of “solid” cars. And again: strict rules regarding paints and solvents etc is again something that manufacturers have to follow.
Secret_Physics_9243@reddit (OP)
I mean sure, you can polish a turd (plastic) as long as you want, but it will never ever replicate the soft leather, creamy smell and durability of it. It's much easier to take plastic and make it look decent than make a proper leather interior, add proper lining, good pannel gaps and so on
But even then, when i say quality has decreased, i mean creaking interiors, dull plastic surfaces and the use of touch screens and capacitivr buttons
dissss0@reddit
There is a certain amount of 'rose tinted glasses' at play here.
Mercedes Benz in particular has used horrible greasy vinyl on many of their models since at least the 90s, and the leather they put in BMWs has never been good until you went up to very high end models.
As for panel gaps if that's what's important then you should just buy a Lexus anyway
Imaginary_Act_3956@reddit
I love your Ioniq and your Niro!
I also own a similar Ioniq hybrid (it's a 2018), but it's not on my flair.
Vulkanodox@reddit
quality goes down, price goes up
costafilh0@reddit
It's been cooking for a while now. Not only in the EU, but the whole western world.
SLAPUSlLLY@reddit
Not in New Zealand, current boomer government has reversed ev subsidies, and added tax that disproportionately advantages large displacement gas guzzlers over efficient vehicles.
Great for boomer v8 owners. Not so hot for our planet.
100% gree-D
A2-394@reddit
I think this is... complicated.
In my experience German cars have been losing ground regarding interior quality (especially the choice of materials, with worse plastic and a transition to faux leather that is not always on par with real leather). It remains to be seen if this is a temporary thing or not.
Regarding the design there surely have been some disputable trends both on the exterior (front grilles going completely out of proportion, split headlights, fake intakes) and the interior (disappearance of tactile, physical controls in favour of touchscreen displays with questionable positioning, appearance and graphics). This is a trend that is not specific to German cars but it is especially noticeable on those since their interior used to be the opposite of minimalistic glass cockpits. I think that these design changes, as opposed to the quality changes mentioned above that might get corrected in the future, are here to stay.
Sure, some completely idiotic, out-of-this-world moronic decisions like capacitive buttons on steering wheels are probably going to be reverted back, but we'll never see the return of the rotary dial controllers or the numeric keypads we were seeing just five or ten years ago on BMW, Audi and Mercedes. It must be said, though, that on the newest Volkswagen SUVs for Europe (Tiguan and T-Roc) a rotary controller has come back on the central tunnel for volume and driving modes.
Aside from the design choices and interior quality, though, I can't find many faults with German cars or European cars in general. The powertrains are, as others said, better than ever. Last week I was working on an old Golf IV with a 2.0 petrol engine that puts out 115 hp and its fuel consumption is double that of the 1.5 TSI that has 150 hp. Gearboxes? Aside from the always excellent ZF8HP, the modern DSGs are way smoother and more reliable than those of ten years ago. Also the tailpipe emissions are a fraction of what they were, and all that with less fuel consumption and much more power.
That said: would I buy a plug-in hybrid BMW M5? Probably not, but for the vast majority of car owners modern mild-hybrid powertrains are completely fine. Hell, even electric cars, provided that one can charge at home and has a decent high-speed charging network along highways are a no brainer for most people.
Do they cost more than 20 years a go? Yes, but this isn't so much a car problem, in my opinion, than a wage problem. It makes more sense, in my opinion, to demand higher wages, better work-life balance and better benefits than to demand the cost of goods going down. In other words: keep the cars at that price, but give me more money to buy them. Otherwise, I'm just fine with my ten year old German Diesel that still runs like new and probably will continue to do so for the next ten.
Regarding subscriptions, my only advice/idea is to no fucking buy them and not give them your money if they have shitty business practices. If nobody buys subscriptions they'll change their mind sooner or later.
Sweet-Parking8955@reddit
Regarding the price: It's a regulation problem. EU regulations favour larger and more expensive cars* so that's what's getting build.
*due to the pressure of manufacturers to sell cars with higher margins.
Sweet-Parking8955@reddit
Yes, at least considering German brands.
After years of mismanagement they are starting to run out of money. It's not as bad as the American brands after the oil crisis but it's bad. They have to cut costs everywhere, so the cars become worse and less affordable.
I doubt that it's different for Stellantis and Renault. Geely with Volvo and Polestar seems to be doing fine, Jaguar is undead. The other sports and luxury brands seem to be alright as rich people will always buy expensive cars.
gumol@reddit
cars are faster than ever
EggNogEpilog@reddit
Oh good. More average/easily attainable consumer cars with 350+ hp for the normal everyday driver that's not into cars and likely can't handle 250+ hp safely without getting into a hairy situation.
aldkfvjag@reddit
who would eat 💩 when 🍞 is affordable?
Scarlet-Highlander-@reddit
Malaise is when car no fun
BWFTW@reddit
I think we are witnessing the end of the petrol car era. Or at the very least we are witnessing the true death of the manual transmission sports. Civic type r is most likely to be discontinued. Next m4 has is going to be hybrid only so no manual. Gr86 successor rumors point to it being hybrid so again no manual. Same with the upcoming miata nd. 718 is dead. 911 is manual on only two trims, and that will probably be done after the 992.2 gen. Supra mk6 is rumored to be hybrid, so the manual is dead there too. Charger went ev, and if / when the hellcat comes back it'll be auto only. Corvette lost its manual already.
Genuinely every single manual sports car is rumored to be in its last generation for having a manual transmission. The exception being the mustang gt and the corolla gr. And for all I know they could be, I just haven't heard any rumors of it yet.
The necessity of sports cars to become hybrid to meet ever stricter emissions standards has inadvertently become death knell for the manual transmissions sports car.
NoctD@reddit
The problems of the EU automakers are simple really - crazy EU regulations and many also bet the farm catering to China and forgetting the rest of the world exists. Both this factors are now crushing the EU auto industry.
edwacht@reddit
I think I beg to differ. One characteristic of the US malaise era of the 70s and 80s were the sudden rise of ever stricter safety, emission and efficieny laws. And then we have a whole group of US car that were just 'meh' all around with numerous quality problems.
I don't see these happening right now. As others have stated, cars are still better then they ever were. Not much is cheapened or works less.
The only thing I presume is going to happen, is that parts of the European car industry is going to collapse (because of China), much like some US brands in the 70s (because of Japan). Some brands definitely won't be around in 10 years.
SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit
Not necessarily. Engines are getting downsized and hybridized is happening but unlike the malaise era these engines are potent and are not nerfed.
1988rx7T2@reddit
The term malaise era is an allusion to a speech by President Jimmy Carter, called the Crisis of Confidence speech. It got attached to the American cars of the era. It’s a strange term to apply to 2025 era German cars.
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