Xena Before, During and After WHEN FATES COLLIDE?
Posted by IseQween@reddit | xena | View on Reddit | 34 comments
In a lovely story based on WHEN FATES COLLIDE (http://xenafiction.net/scrolls/xenas_little_bitch_teatp.html), the fanfic bard portrays differences between the Empress, the WP Gabrielle has travelled with prior to this ep and the Xena who emerges from the fog after. What, if any, distinctions in behavior did you see or imagine between these versions of Xena?
RotaVitae@reddit
It's tough to say because WFC compresses a huge amount of Xena's history as we've known her. Empress Xena is properly Xena extended from Destiny without having gone through her psychotic warlord Debt/Sin Trade phase, then going straight to being in love with Gabrielle after only knowing her for a few days.
It removes the growing pains they went through in Season 1, and why the Xena we know grows into herself because of Gab. And it ignores really important stories like the breakup in Season 3, and the questioning in Season 4, that made their relationship so strong and meaningful from 5 to the end.
Maybe that's why I have such a hard time enjoying this fanfic episode because we just know Xena and Gab are going to end up together again by design. There's no outright risk because Caesar's unaware of their karmic steel bond, and as a rush job it removes much of what gave depth to a 5-year relationship.
When Xena comes out of the fog and they're just "Hi" I felt like "Oh well, that's that, back to business" and off they go. Nothing about Xena changed to me because we knew victory was inevitable, and they didn't take anything new about themselves from the experience.
jdpm1991@reddit
Also how does Alti come into the picture if Alti only met Xena when she was with Borias?
RotaVitae@reddit
Well, Xena only met Gab after Hercules had helped turned her good, long after Destiny. Real historical events don't seem to matter, only that the soulmate bond between the three of them is preserved. So Caesar pulled Xena and Gab into a new time without knowing it would also pull in Alti, who would be his undoing.
No_Life_1104@reddit
Did Ceasar pull Gabrielle into this timeline? I got the impression that he only went back to his betrayal of Xena and instead of crucifying her. Married her instead, I don't think he knew until he saw Gabrielle that she would show up in this lifetime. From his perspective he's written Gabrielle out of Xena's life, I don't think he realizes, until she shows up, how linked Xena and Gabrielle are.
jdpm1991@reddit
do they know they were put into a new timeline by the end of the episode or do only Xena and Gabrielle of that Universe Caesar created know
IseQween@reddit (OP)
Intriguing question. We know X&G remember. I'm assuming Alti might because she's -- you know -- Alti. I understand they added the Jett character at the last minute to give Ted another shot. In hindsight, I wish they'd made him Joxer. Someone here once posited him as a sort of soulmate to X&G, along with Alti, since his incarnation pops up in SCROLLS as well as the modern settings. Admittedly, I don't willingly put him in my Head Canon like that with X&G, but it does seem to fit what we see in the series.
jdpm1991@reddit
that Ted Raimi cameo was Joxer II not Jett
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Actually it was a character called Neil, if you look at the transcript on Whoosh.org
IseQween@reddit (OP)
Huh. The transcript (supposedly based on aired product) linked to ep Whoosh! commentary page refers to this character as "Jox." When I watch, I could swear someone ("Jox" himself?) calls him Jett. I may have to rewatch with closed captioning to see if I can figure out where I got that from.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
What version of the dvds do you have? The one I bought a couple of years ago as a set has lots of interviews and commentaries on it, but no subtitles, which I find very frustrating. I also noticed the "Jox" definition of that guard in the Whoosh transcript, which is what I based the comment on.
I just checked the Bitch of Rome's transcript https://bitchofrome.com/fandom/transcripts/season6/whenfatescollide.html and she refers to the guard as Barnabus. And in her transcription Xena says "You, come with me" not "Neil....come with me" (as in Whoosh).
So then I went to the IMDB record and they have Ted Raimi down as Joxer. Unfortunately I don't have the shooting draft/script for the episode so don't know what was originally written down.
Would be great if you could watch the episode again and share what the close-captioned version brings up.
IseQween@reddit (OP)
I have the original Anchor Bay DVDs, but my player's on the blink so I've been rewatching at xenagabrielle.com. I couldn't get CC to work, but checked all the "Joxer" scenes. I didn't hear any mention of his name and now have no idea where I got "Jett" from. Could be I imagined it or got it from a fanfic or discussion at some point over the years. 😂
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
I just watched WFC on xenagabrielle.com and DID manage to get CC to work and it actually said, "You, come with me" not Neil, come with me, per the Whoosh.org transcript. Just goes to show I should do my own research.......... As you say, though, there's no mention of the guard's name.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Same here - I can't remember where I got "Neil" from - though I think it was someone else who initially pointed it out. I recently bought the 10th Anniversary collection (to add to my previous two collections!) for the sole purpose of the commentaries and interviews and from what I've seen so far, the only episode that has extras on it that I don't already have is Sins of the Past.
I haven't looked at all the other extras on that set - but the couple I have looked at (for favourite episodes) are the same as my second set which I picked up from an Australian store - it's called The Ultimate Collection and has two bonus dvds with documentaries, interviews and additional footage. On the back of the disk covers, it says that Seasons 4-6 have closed captions, but if so, I haven't been able to activate them!
So I've been thinking of getting the Anchor collection for yet another comparison. The question is, how many Xena collections is too many. I've found some of these interviews and BTS videos on YouTube. Doesn't help with the Joxer/Barnabus/Neil/Jett question in WFC!!!
IseQween@reddit (OP)
My original Anchor Bay's have a S1 bonus DVD with great BTS interviews, one by the director of SOTP, another giving martial-arts and shaman backgrounds. I especially like the Lucy and Renee reactions in the commentaries that begin with S2. I'd be very surprised if the later versions do more than take bits from the original set. The only other reason I'd get a more recent collection would be if the eps were in hi-def, which doesn't seem to be the case.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
So it might be worth my while to try and get a copy of the original Anchor dvds as well, if I was that obsessive.......... 🤔
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
I'll have to watch it again. I had the impression that Alti didn't know anything until she laid her hands on Xena that night and got a vision from the past. When she does it in the cell a second time, she says "Those images - they're not from this life. There's something more," like she's trying to work it out but doesn't really know, unlike Caesar who surely must have known the playwright from Athens was Gabrielle. Or didn't he pay that much attention? He was truly 'tempting fate' here.
I also had the impression that Xena didn't want to sleep with Caesar much at all when he says "It's been a long time" and Alti says, "Wouldn't Caesar give anything to have you look at him that way."
RotaVitae@reddit
Yes.
"You brought the world back to us."
"I'm glad, I like this one better."
"Even though you're not a famous playwright?"
"Fame, who needs it?"
The irony is by Season 6 Gab was famous for her writing after 25 years, as a prose writer if not plays. Missy seemed to forget that.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Missy? Do you mean Melissa Good? The fan fiction linked to was by Xena's LIttle Bitch (Julia Noel Goldman) and WFC was written by Katherine Fugate. The way the director wanted them to act in the ending spoiled the whole rest of the episode for me - it was too weird.
IseQween@reddit (OP)
They may be referring to Missy's S6 ep LEGACY, where Kahina talks about Gabs' scrolls.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Ah!! That could be it. I did remember that Gabrielle's scrolls were well known and had travelled far in Legacy which had been written by Melissa Good - just thought the 'specifics' were getting mixed up.
summer_james2@reddit
I think xena means famous in her own right without Xena being attached to her. Gabrielle is famous as the battling bard who is Xena’s companion and she is famous for writing about Xena’s deeds. Bc Gabrielle writes about Xena.
I think Xena means that this was Gabrielle’s chance to be famous without Xena being attached to it in any way.
IseQween@reddit (OP)
With the hints from XLB's fanfic, I watched again and noted Empress Xena seemed a bit more open, naive and relaxed than the WP, certainly to discussing Gabs' play about love and sacrifice. Despite sensing Alti's power hunger, Xena is pretty trusting of Caesar and his motivations. She doesn't have either the insights or shields of past experiences from her "real" life. Also, after the revelations and their powerful moments in FATES, it's hard imagining that Xena in particular wouldn't feel their bond was more precious than she'd ever imagined. I can see her romantic lightheartedness in MANY HAPPY RETURNS in that context. (Yes, I'm ignoring AFIN, which to me focuses more on their separate quests/journeys.)
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
The Xena in When Fates Collide hasn't been crucified and betrayed by Caesar and therefore did not turn into Evil Xena. Yes, she's a warrior but a warrior/soldier for Rome so she never became as warped/feral/hate-filled/angry/bitter etc as "normal" Xena. Empress Xena seemed sort of content with her life, apart from having to sleep with Caesar, but she was bored. She was actually a very different Xena.
Interesting here that in this timeline Gabrielle didn't become a slave like in Remember Nothing but obviously left Poteidaia anyway - perhaps to go to Athens Academy to study, then became well-known and lived what would seem like an idyllic lifestyle in a vineyard by the sea, except she never found love, until she met this very different Xena.
Yet they still fell in love with each other. That's obviously the whole soul mates thing coming into play, regardless of how different they both were.
IseQween@reddit (OP)
Yes, "content," not "bitter," but possibly "bored." She'd still lost Lyceus and spent awhile as a warlord/pirate before Caesar. This ep underscores how she might've been without Caesar's betrayal. Less of an "edge," more freely playful, comfortable deferring to Caesar. I got the impression she was okay sleeping with him, that Gabs simply distracted her sufficiently to think about her that night, than roll around with hubby. I wish we'd gotten to see a little bit more of how she was before seeing Gabs' play.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
I'll have to watch it again. I had the impression that Alti didn't know anything until she laid her hands on Xena that night and got a vision from the past. When she does it in the cell a second time, she says "Those images - they're not from this life. There's something more," like she's trying to work it out but doesn't really know, unlike Caesar who surely must have known the playwright from Athens was Gabrielle. Or didn't he pay that much attention? He was truly 'tempting fate' here.
I also had the impression that Xena didn't want to sleep with Caesar much at all when he says "It's been a long time" and Alti says, "Wouldn't Caesar give anything to have you look at him that way."
IseQween@reddit (OP)
Oh, I'm not saying Xena looked forward to amorous moments with Caesar, so much as being accustomed to him like a warm bed comforter. Her surprise that he's leaving ("Where are you going?") suggests they're both used to sleeping together regardless. Except this time he suspects there's a disturbingly new cause for her "headache" named Gabrielle.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
True, she was surprised at that. I find it hard to believe that Caesar didn't know that Gabrielle was the author of the play that he had brought to Rome - he looked genuinely surprised when she turned up on stage.....and quite conscious of Xena's reaction to her.
I'm also in two minds about Alti, here, as well now. She was very aware of Xena's attraction to Gabrielle. Was that simply her 'gay-dar' going off or did she realise they were in an alternate universe? Before she put her hands on Xena in the bedchamber, she says "I had the most interesting vision of you and the writer" then says "I can see into your soul where you've been and where you're going." But then in the cell later she says "Those images...they're not from this life. There's something...more." So I'm thinking, yes she is a Shamaness so she gets visions, but maybe it's not until in the cell that she pieces things together?
And you know the thing I just realised? Although this is one of the most popular and talked about episodes with its own very clear storyline, it was really a clip show. The producers of the show certainly had a very engaging way of weaving storylines into their clip shows.
IseQween@reddit (OP)
I pictured somebody saying, "Hey, there's this playwright from Athens everybody's been talking about. Might be an interesting change of pace for the next banquet." Caesar shrugs, figures it could impress Xena and tells her, "I thought you'd appreciate a taste of your own culture." Xena ridicules it as "more drivel from old men with tricky names. That was very thoughtful of you." I didn't get the impression either of them was passionate about following the arts.
As to Alti, she's clearly bored with Gabs and her play -- until she notices Xena's expression when she's still on the balcony. Then, this Empress who usually prefers watching wrestling to plays or romance, seems fascinated by and waxing poetic with this strange nonwarrior. Alti senses emotions she's never witnessed before in Xena, certainly not toward Caesar. Up to that point she probably dismissed Xena as real competition or a threat to Alti's plans. Alti says to herself, "Hmmm, there's more to that barbarian slut than meets the eye. I'd better start focusing my spidey powers on her."
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
And it worked! She was clearly feeling threatened by Xena all along. If she'd been smart she would simply have steered her more in the direction of Gabrielle, so she could claim Caesar for herself sooner. But seriously, what sort of an idiot is Caesar to try and get rid of the "playwright" by crucifying her? Especially as *he* knew who she was and what she meant to the other timeline Xena.
IseQween@reddit (OP)
Yep, he just couldn't counter his arrogance that he could determine all the players' destinies. I think Xena would've kept her word about continuing on with him if he'd let Gabs return safely to her vineyard.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
I think she would have too. Then once they've conquered Chin, she would kill him and become the Empress of Rome and Conqueror of the Known World, and *then* she would have had Gabrielle return to Rome and be with her........just like in all the good conqueror fan fiction!!!! Now *that's* a finale I could live with.
cestlavie_69@reddit
I think some others have encapsulated my thoughts about the WFC Xena vs. regular Xena. The only thing I have to add is that, if you want to read an excellent work of fiction based on the WFC universe, read Vivian Darkbloom’s Infamia. Incredible story.
http://xenafiction.net/scrolls/vivian_darkbloom_infamia.html
IseQween@reddit (OP)
I agree. Too bad the WFC universe hasn't resulted in as many stories as the Conqueror.
FitMountain8649@reddit
Absolutely agree. It is a must read. Darkbloom's Janice and Mel series is also first class. I read all of her works every few years and love them all.