This comment is a month old just about, for you to ask you must be very curious.
I think you are engaging with me as if you are about to debate or ‘gotcha’ a believer, and that isn’t the first time someone has read this comment and assumed as such.
The simple answer is that I, as a human being- as well as you- have the amazing capacity to engage with stories and form feelings and opinions about them regardless of if they are fact or fiction. The moral lesson fable has always been crucially important to how our species has developed and passes down lessons for thousands and thousands of years, which Fable being your own namesake I would expect you to know.
When I said that it was True Judas betrayed Jesus and was made to suffer for it, I didn’t mean it was objective historical fact, I meant that in the Bible Judas betrayed Jesus and was made to suffer for it, it’s written in there; True in the same way it’s true Galadriel gave her hair to Gimli.
Would you ask the same question of someone on an old ass comment expressing feelings of sorrow or questioning morality on a discussion sub for Game of Thrones? Regardless of your answer, I am doubtful of it.
And for the record, no. I am not of any Faith or Religion. I am being so snarky because even I can recognize going out of your way to antagonize someone you think is though is really fucking rude. Certainly makes it seem like someone pissed in your cheerios, mate.
Sir, this is a Wendys. But in all seriousness, I get being emotional about fiction, but only when it’s good (well written) fiction. Ngl kinda shocked someone commenting on green text would think the Bible is good enough to get emotional about. And as for the delayed reply, I can only blame Reddit for their default sorting mechanism.
I didn’t want to call you an asshole because you might have just been having a bad day, but god damn were you intent on convincing myself and everyone who comes by in the future that you are one. Let people enjoy things mate, and if you must look down on someone for doing so, doing it quietly would make you infinitely more likable. Hope that helps.
No this wasn’t predestined. Most Christian denominations don’t believe in predestination as it would mean there’s no free will which is one of the most important core tenants of Christianity. He was likely guided but still chose to act on his own
God is omnicient and all powerful, yes? God knows everything that was, is, and will be, yes? If so, there is no free will, only the illusion. If God knows what choices you will make before you make them, how is that functionally different from the choices being predestined?
God knows. But you don't know. The free will is you learning what you will do. The choice you make still leads to the outcome. From your perspective, you have made a decision and learned from it. All God does here is know what will happen. Like when you know what a good friend is going to say before they say it. They've exercised free will, but your friendship allowed you to predict it. You are not controlling them, and God is not controlling you. He simply knows
thats not free will or determination… If you understood these words definition you would agree that theres no free will because in both your examples it is an example of that.
You say "no this wasn't predestined" as if you speak with literally any authority. "Most" implies nothing other than just that. Most don't think god behaves a certain way. Maybe the JWs are right and only 144,000 are going to heaven.
You're Christian aren't you? You give off the typical "My faith is [BELIEF], so I can speak as to exactly what God was thinking during [SCENE]" energy. I'd urge you to consider your own biases as to what you consider truth and what gave you those biases. How lucky you must be to have been born in the exact correct denomination who worship the exact correct god in the exact correct way. Thank goodness you're not one of those poor lost souls who worship the wrong god. They go through their whole lives being told by their friends and family that their denomination and method of worship is the correct one. But not you.
Not been canonized is a phrase that seems to imply some level of historical parity with the gospels. The earliest manuscript is from 280, in comparison to the gospel of John which has manuscripts as early as 125 AD.
Christians broadly are super duper good at ignoring parts of the bible like Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:4-5 that clearly state that God predestines out fate simply because they'd rather make up their own morality and say it comes from the Bible rather than conform their morality to what the Bible says
Also because if you attempt to critically analyze the Bible you're gonna have a bad time because it doesn't make any sense and is full of things like "God predestines us to do things but will punish you for doing the wrong thing because you totally have free will even though everything is predestined".
Trying to read and understand the Bible (or, really, most religious texts) from the standpoint that it is all literal truth is basically the Olympics of mental gymnastics
He didn't have to suffer for it. All he had to do is ask for forgiveness. However he decided to kill himself even tho he was given a chance to continue living thanks to the branch that he wanted to use to hang himself breaking. However Judas never did any asking of forgiveness and instead persisted at his task of killing himself, which he succeeded.
If he didn't end himself and actually repent he will be saved by grace despite the betrayal, non of the other disciples believed Jesus can come back to life, non of them actually understand what Jesus' salvation or heaven is supposed to be, their faith of the prophecy were assumingly lost. Yet they are still saved once they witnessed and have the grace appears in front of them.
A lot of the suffering that he was put through was added afterwards because people were real pissed about him, so don't worry. Realistically he prob didn't face much fallout; personally my headcanon of the Bible is that Jesus asked Judas to do it to fulfill his destiny or whatever (iirc there was mention of the Son of God being crucified or sacrificed for man's sins in Jewish texts long before Jesus happened). Basically all the stuff about Judas going to hell and killing himself out of shame or being dragged through the streets and beaten are all just revenge fanfics.
Was that at the moment of it happening because I don't see that as Jesus telling him what to do but more saying "Get it over with" if it's at the moment.
Well I'm not saying he is telling him no I'm just teying to interpret the intended tone of a line. Jesus is portrayed as outright not being happy with how it's supposed to end even if it's planned so I imagine the way he says the line is in a more anxious way. The argument is about whether Judas had free will in this scenario, and whether Judas was a part of the plan to begin with.
My interpretation is "I don't want to do this, I don't want to think about you doing this, but I have the knowlegde regardless, this was going to happen whether it was you or not so I forgive you for this, just hurry up and go do it already."
and whether Judas was a part of the plan to begin with.
It is impossible for Judas to not have been a part of the plan. God is omniscient.
I don't want to do this, I don't want to think about you doing this, but I have the knowlegde regardless, this was going to happen whether it was you or not so I forgive you for this, just hurry up and go do it already
Jesus is God and thus omnipotent. It only happened because Jesus wanted it to happen.
You are reading into this a lot of things that aren't there.
The simple matter of fact is that a) Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him b) Jesus gave Judas the Ok going with a very generous interpretation.
This goes into philosophy of free will. Many stories in the bible happen due to those who defy God's will. The very first story is exactly this, and the very next one after that too. To be in defiance of God means free will. You could say that God purposefully made things to get angry at for some unknowable purpose, but sonce he is omnipotent why not just make the end goal now? If he is omnipotent, he could control people's will, so why not? The only conclusion is that he cpuld control things down to the atom, but chooses not to because the point is that he created us to have free will in the first place and is trying to guide us to something else.
The only conclusion I can draw from Jesus and Judas, is that whether Judas was there or not Jesus would be caught, but Jesus had the foreknowledge or just knew hia good friend long enough to come to teh conclusion he would end up choosing greed in the end. God could have set it up so specifically Judas would be the one to do it, but there isn't really any purpose to that and it would make no sense for Jesus to call it out or to say he is forgiven.
This can be shown with Lazarus. If the man was meant to die he would have stayed dead. Lazarus was in heaven so he wasn't suffering. Jesus cried for him anyway and brought him back to life. You could say that Jesus was just flexing power but if you look at the context it's clearly not the case.
At the end of Jesus's story he states that he is "Fully Man and Fully God, and you all will be too." He then joins God as his right hand. What this means to me at least is that Jesus's journey was meant, from the beginning, as a learning journey for Jesus himself. It's possible that both he and God found themselves to be above humans, but seeing as humans kept failing to live up to expectations God sent Jesus down as a human to understand them and their emotions better.
Jesus experienced everything humanity had to offer and even went to hell for 3 days. It's stated "All of humanity's sins were on his back and we are saved." Take this along with his "Fully Man and Fully God" line and his position in heaven, Jesus was sent down as a mediatir between man and God. His line means "We are both more alike than you think. I now know why you all feel the things you do and I understand why you sin. I can judge your place more accurately mow because I understand you all on a personal level. We can be even more alike in the future. I hope you all can make better choices now that I have brought wisdom. We will be joined together one day in this."
The story didn't have to go in any specific direction for any of this to happen but it just kind of happened the way it did. Humanity just made things happen the way it needed by being itself, Jesus didn't need to do anything.
You are free to interpret the bible however you want, but your interpretation makes no sense if you also believe that Jesus is omniscient and omnipotent.
Jesus experienced everything humanity had to offer and even went to hell for 3 days. It's stated "All of humanity's sins were on his back and we are saved." Take this along with his "Fully Man and Fully God" line and his position in heaven, Jesus was sent down as a mediatir between man and God. His line means "We are both more alike than you think. I now know why you all feel the things you do and I understand why you sin. I can judge your place more accurately mow because I understand you all on a personal level. We can be even more alike in the future. I hope you all can make better choices now that I have brought wisdom. We will be joined together one day in this."
None of that is necessary being omniscient. He already knows that better than anybody else, by definition. Coming to Earth adds 0 to his knowledge.
At the end of Jesus's story he states that he is "Fully Man and Fully God, and you all will be too."
Really? Where?
Humanity just made things happen the way it needed by being itself, Jesus didn't need to do anything.
Jesus created humanity that exact way. You are writing this as if Jesus was someone who just stumbled one day on earth. Anything and everything happens only because God wants it to.
Go ahead and re-read what I wrote. I could say that Harry Potter duels Voldemort; Yes. That's true, that is a thing that happened in Harry Potter. It doesn't mean that I'm saying Harry Potter is real. You're rockin some grade school literacy, dumbass.
I never liked this interpretation, because the language of "Satan entered into someone" appears only here, and nowhere else. And early, it is said "the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas… to betray him". It all seems like a figure of speech for him just wanting to do it for personal reasons after being tempted, like all sin is supposed to be.
It's shakey, but I like some of the modern interpretations that he was a zealot who felt Jesus was not living up to his supposed role.
The figure of speech implies the opposite. And you have similar things throughout the Bible, such as when God hardens the pharaoh's heart... which led to the deaths of thousands of kids.
I find it weird that God's plan involves the independent choices of a trillion people throughout history, but he had to totally violate some people's free will in just a few instances because the plan just couldn't do it those times. It would make more sense that it all works the same. Judas was always going to make this choice just like all of us are fated to make our choices. No special puppeteering required.
So God could not have designed a plan that does not need that? Are you insinuating that God is weak?
Well, that's exactly my point. Is God's plan, and therefore God, so weak that he or Satan have to puppeteer humans around to fulfill it? I don't think so. If you believe in free will, then his plan is fulfilled through human choice constantly. But he needed to activate cheats a few dozen times? Does it seem more likely that these are all just phrases to convey to the reader "God could have prevented this, but it was part of his plan, so he did not".
How? By whom?
Well the original text is all over the place, so it's exact meaning has been debated by Jewish and Christian scholars for millennia. The subject and verb changes each time it's said "Pharaohs hardens his own heart" "God causes pharaohs heart to become heavy" "pharaoh remains stubborn all on his own". It's an age old question whether he was forced into it or not.
The Judas verse translation is more straightforward. Satan entered into Judas. Now what that means is still debatable, but I certainly find it harder to brush off.
Except he does, all the time. The bible is literally a collection of God activating cheats. The flood, Babel, Exodus from Egypt, people granted supernatural powers, magic, etc...
Even in the new testament you have tens of tales of demons possessing people.
There is not a single point in the bible where god is shown to care about free will.
Well the original text is all over the place, so it's exact meaning has been debated by Jewish and Christian scholars for millennia
Not only is that not true in the most common and modern versions (kjv, catholic, etc..) You are reading the wrong passage. It is Exodus 7:3
"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt."
I'll stop expanding semantics and try to get to the heart of it.
There is not a single point in the bible where god is shown to care about free will.
Do you actually believe this? Does free will even exist, in your mind? If God doesn't value it, why would it? He should just puppet me to make the right choices. Or does he only violate our wills to hurt other people?
Is it not more likely that he can send events/people/experiences that bolster our will, or he can withhold that from us? Our choices are still our own, from our limited viewpoint. But our own minds and personalities are still tossed about by the realities of the world, which is at God's command.
What is the point of redemption if there is no choice? What is the point of all the allusions of God as the bridegroom and us as the bride?
There are many other explanations and takes on why all these examples don't violate free will. Centuries of debate. I encourage you to read them.
Do you actually believe this? Does free will even exist, in your mind? If God doesn't value it, why would it?
Nope, if free will exists God would not punish people who act badly nor would he intervene to reduce our free will.
Is it not more likely that he can send events/people/experiences that bolster our will, or he can withhold that from us?
Whose will did he bolster with the flood?
There are many other explanations and takes on why all these examples don't violate free will. Centuries of debate. I encourage you to read them.
Really? Have you read them? Do you have a good source on the free will of the pharaoh or the flood that does not just play semantics? The only good argument I've seen is that God can do whatever he wants.
If free will exists God would not punish people who act badly
I honestly don't know if that's a typo. Did you mean "If free will didn't exist"?
Whose will did he bolster with the flood?
He didn't affect anyone's free will in the flood. Like I said, he affected the world.
Do you have a good source on the free will of the pharaoh or the flood that does not just play semantics?
Semantics is the study of the meaning of words, so not really? I can say there's people that explain it within the context of broader theocracy alongside semantics as I have tried to do.
I honestly don't know if that's a typo. Did you mean "If free will didn't exist"?
How can you be free to choose if you are punished? Are you free to choose with a gun to your head? The catholic church certainly believes that duress removes the imputability, as well as many others.
He didn't affect anyone's free will in the flood. Like I said, he affected the world.
Suddenly people stopped being able to make choices, to repent from their sins. Adults kids and babies alike. Guilty and innocent. You are acting is if free will is not a part of the world.
Exodus
You tout debates and books and that is all you have? Remember that 1h ago you did not know that God said he was going to harden the pharaoh's heart and you told me that the translations are a mess, you must be joking 😂😂😂😂
How can you be free to choose if you are punished?
Because actions have consequences. If they didn't they wouldn't mean anything. It seems our worldviews are pretty opposed, we'd probably need a weekend and some beers to sort it out.
Exodus
Sorry, you must have seen it before I fixed that, you can have another look.
That is simply not true. Bad people live good lives and good people live bad lives. If God is just, why is this the case? The only way to explain is to come up with an afterlife where the roles are reversed and people are punished disproportionately. An idea borrowed from Egyptians, as jews and christians did not develop this escathology until later.
Regarding the sources, they both claim that it is clear that God hardens Pharaoh's heart, making it harder (not impossible) for the Pharaoh to choose freely. It is the only relevant point brought up by Origen, twice:
But if we believe these writings to be divine and written by the Holy Spirit, I do not think that we should regard the divine Spirit so lowly as to suppose that that distinction was made by chance in so great a work as this, and that at one time God is said "to have hardened Pharao's heart," at another it is said to be hardened not by God, but, as it were, voluntarily. I admit, to be sure, that I am not fit or able in such differences to pry into the secrets of divine wisdom
I see this man as one who understands the difference between, "Pharao's heart was hardened," and, "The Lord hardened Pharao's heart."
Origen is, as most of these books, tedious and does not say anything relevant as to why God did it. Instead it uses the story as a metaphor for the new testament 🥱. If there is something relevant be sure to tell me, as I only read epistle 4, but there certainly does not seem to be anything else.
Your second source actually disagrees with you: the argument is that God cheats but the pharaoh ultimately had the final decision. That if it wasn't for God's hardening the pharaoh would have done something else.
God’s activity makes Pharaoh’s own obduracy of such a character that he is driven to the point of no return.
God becomes involved in the very sin and rejection of the people. In such situations, the continued divine involvement has the effect of intensifying the sinful behavior of the people, driving it toward its fullest negative consequences as it goes crashing through the gorge.
It also raises a very stupid point in my opinion: he argues that God does not control Moses because Moses rejects his command before eventually accepting it. Now, this might be true for anybody else, but for God this does not work. God wanted moses to do X and Moses does X, whether Moses does not want to is irrelevant. It is insulting, nigh blaspheous, to say an omniscient and omnipotent being has a backup plan.
God is clearly not in absolute control of Moses. For all of God’s powers, Moses is not easily persuaded to take up his calling. In fact, God resorts to a backup plan in providing Aaron to stand with him (see at 4:14). God relates to Moses in such a way that his will is not overpowered.
All in all my conclusion from reading these texts is that Moses and Aaron wanted to let the Israelites go. The Pharaoh did not but was willing to come around. However, God intervened and made it so that the Pharaoh chose not to. Instead of softening he hardens. Instead of healing he kills.
Bad people live good lives and good people live bad lives. If God is just, why is this the case?
Depends on your definition of a 'good life'.
We seem to be starting into the very nature of God, justice, and morality. An expected outcome, but I'm not really feeling this conversation. You refuse to take the leap to my understanding or look anything up yourself, instead trying to assert that this isn't a long-held debate, actually? Doesn't seem like I get anything for my effort.
God merely having omnipotence and being Omni-benevolent is already paradoxical to the whole “free will” stuff
Everything either works out in his choice, including all the sins and sufferings and therefore he isn’t benevolent, or he is benevolent but isn’t omnipotent, and can’t really predict the future or the choice of the peoples
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
I mean, any parent would tell you that you have to let your kids fail in order to grow as a person and learn how to become a functioning adult. I can step in and stop my kid from making mistakes or doing the wrong thing, but then they're not making their own decisions and learning autonomy. That's the argument a Christian would make; that a decision to be a good person, or close to God, is meaningless if it's predestined. It's only meaningful if you have the freedom to choose evil and reject it.
If I raise a robot kid who is programmed to love me and never disobeys my orders, is that real love? Or is it more meaningful to raise an actual child who has the capacity to think and act for themselves and still chooses to maintain a relationship with me as they get older?
That's the argument a Christian would make; that a decision to be a good person, or close to God, is meaningless if it's predestined.
Everything is pre-destined in Christianity. God has a "plan" that he is executing. He knows the future. He knows every possible decision everyone will make before they even make them.
He knew what Jeffrey Dahmer would do when he created him. He created him that way anyway, fully knowing what he would go on to do. God wouldn't even need to restrict free will to have stopped this- he could just simply create a Jeffrey Dahmer not inclined towards murder instead of making one inclined towards murder. God didn't choose to do that, though. He chose to make the Jeffrey Dahmer we got fully knowing what would happen. That is evil. If you are able to stop something evil, and simply choose not to, you are propagating evil.
God isn't like a parent. He knows every choice a person will make for their entire life before he even creates them. He could create them with different inclinations and they would then take different actions, meaning every evil thing is a direct consequence of God's actions. You could say "Well Dahmer was just socialized wrong by his parents" but then that just means it's still God's fault because God created his parents with their inclinations that resulted in the known outcome of Dahmer's life. God knew what the result of all his choices would be, and chose to go through with it anyway. If you believe God doesn't know the future then he's not omnipotent and consequently is not God. If he does know the future then he knowingly propagates evil.
> God isn't like a parent. He knows every choice a person will make for their entire life before he even creates them.
I always interpreted this to mean that God is like a parent. When I tutored students I would hand them a worksheet and tell them, "do these ten problems, I'm going to walk around the classroom and check on the others". I knew the ones who weren't going to do the worksheet, and which ones would sit quietly and finish the work on time. But I still had to give them the chance to make that choice.
Not analogous. You may have some idea of who will do what but you are not God. God knows what they will do their entire life before he even creates them.
It's internally incoherent to make a person knowing their entire future beforehand and then punish them for doing what you knew they'd do beforehand. That's just sadism creating something for the express purpose of punishing it. If God knows the future, then there cannot be free will. If God does not know the future, then he's not God.
If you read Exodus, you will see that before everyone in the plagues the pharaoh was going to let the Jews go, but then as the Bible states “god hardened the pharaohs heart and he would not let them go” so God was purposely fucking with the Jews AND the Egyptians so that there would be a cool story. God wanted to be able to show Egypt how powerful he was so even though the pharaoh was willing to let them go God didn’t want them to so he could keep increasing his shows of power.
Never in my life was I expecting a philosophical debate about Christian beliefs to involve talk about whether God would be found guilty of entrapment as a LEO, but here we are, creating never before stated sentences.
He in Hell. On some real shit, God/Jesus/Holy Spirit’s whole thing is “Do only good, but if you do bad don’t worry you can repent and be good again.” Judas had the opportunity to repent after betraying the Son of God (I think in Luke it says he was quite literally possessed by Satan, so it might not have been his actions and thus wouldn’t need to). He might have earned himself a few thousand years of Purgatory, which is basically Hell but finite, but in the end he would have gone to Heaven at some point.
The reason he’s in Hell is because he gave up and killed himself, which is the worst sin a human can commit. That refusal to repent (no killing yourself doesn’t count), to even try, is what got him the Holy Hotbox.
It’s also because he was trying to force Jesus’ hand to be the warrior king who would overthrow the Roman Empire like all the Jews were hoping he would be. In judas’ mind, Jesus was taking too long to become the Messiah and was just stalling by going around and preaching instead of leading a revolution. How better to force the soon to be warrior messiah to start the holy war than to make him get arrested by the people he was supposed overthrow. Obviously nothing bad will happen to him since he has the plot armor of being the prophesied messiah. Judas even bought land around Jerusalem because he was expecting its value to go way up after the revolution.
Unfortunately, Judas and the majority of the Jews did not realize that he was not going to be that type of messiah bringing war destruction, and overthrowing the Roman Empire. Instead Judas played right into fulfilling the actual prophecy. He was quite distraught to the point of killing himself on the very land he bought because he did not expect Jesus to actually be crucified instead of starting a revolution right then in there and kicking the Romans out Jerusalem.
There are a lot of stories in the Bible about how trying to force the prophecy in your own way goes very poorly for you
The whole point of Judas' character (whether you try to portrat him as the positive character or the negative one) is that he had a choice. There was no destiny, there was no higher force that made him do what he did. He chose to commit the actions he commited even though he didn't have to
Yes, he did. That doesn't contradict Judas acting out of his free will
I've heard someone compare it to watching a prerecorded match. You know what will happen but that doesn't mean that the players you're watching didn't act on their own
Ok but what if someone somehow produced a record of a match that hasn't happened yet and even if you show it to any of the players they cant change what they do in the match when it happens then did they have free will? Jesus knew BEFORE. It's not the same as watching a record of something that happened in the past.
Jesus knew, but that's all. He didn't force Judas to betray him, he didn't attempt to influence Judas' decision in any way. Judas still chose his own path in accordance to his free will. Jesus knowing about it beforehand doesn't suddenly make Judas' choices less independent
I’ll start with the second point first. Jesus was more or less telling him to stop beating around the bush and get it over with. He didn’t say “Betray me”, he said “me and you both know what’s going to happen so let’s get a move on.”
And whether Judas was possessed or not, he had every opportunity to repent and seek God’s grace, right up until he hanged himself.
He didn’t say “Betray me”, he said “me and you both know what’s going to happen so let’s get a move on.”
Even with your interpretation Jesus is approving of Judas' betrayal. He did not bother to kick out Satan from Judas or even tell him not to. He literally tells him to do it.
And whether Judas was possessed or not, he had every opportunity to repent and seek God’s grace, right up until he hanged himself.
Matthew 27:50 "Jesus said to him 'My friend, do what you are here for"
Mark doesn't have Jesus say anything after Judas' kiss
Luke has him ask "Judas, are you betraying the Son of man with a kiss?", and also mentions Satan entering him. That being said, Jesus asks Judas and not Satan, so it could be either outright possession or just influence.
John has no dialogue
Matthew has Judas feeling remorseful, returning the Silver, and hanging himself, while the other Gospels do not mention him. I think Judas was of his own mind after he had betrayed Jesus and he killed himself, rather than Satan forcing him to. I also must say that my opinion on Judas being possessed comes from a book more or less about Ed Warren, who mentioned that Judas himself possessed someone, implying that he was in league with the demons and thus in Hell.
I also must say that my opinion on Judas being possessed comes from a book more or less about Ed Warren, who mentioned that Judas himself possessed someone, implying that he was in league with the demons and thus in Hell.
The thought comes from reading the gospel directly in its historical context. The gospels and the old testament have a fair share of possessions to begin with, so it is not that rare. It is
Whoever wrote matthew felt the need to include it because many christians were claiming Judas was "the good guy", such as gnostics and also see the gospel of judas. Additionally note that it would be impossible for a human to know whether Judas was possessed or not so it was either a) completely made up b) divine revelation of the truth
Have you actually read what you just posted? Where is the author citing Jesus telling Judas to "betray him"? Jesus is telling Judas to continue on with his plans, whatever they may be. He doesn't tell Judas he knows he will betray him. He doesn't order Judas to betray him. At this point Judas may still change his mind, warn Jesus about the incoming Romans or try to ask Jesus for his forgiveness. Yet he chooses to continue with his plan of betrayal
We are agreeing that he told Judas to betray him 😂😂😂
We're not agreeing on anything. You're trying to put words into Jesus' mouth that he never said. He didn't tell Judas to betray him. He told Judas to continue with his plans. Those are not the same words. Your (made up) version is a direct order which only allows one possibility which is for Judas to betray Jesus. What Jesus said on the other hand is vague and doesn't precisely tell Judas what Jesus expects from him. The difference is enormous
Within the very same verse we are told that Satan enters in Judas before all of this.
There are two problems with insunating that it Satan that is responsible for Judas betraying Jesus. First of all this verse is a clear reference to John 6:70 - 71 where Jesus directly mentions that one of his disciples is a devil and the biblical author points out that Jesus is talking about Judas. Secondly you can see in the Bible that Satan can't just possess any person he wants to. He has to be let into someone's heart. The biblical author shows us that Judas had been thinking about betraying Jesus for quite some time now and had let Satan take a hold in his heart. Satan entering Judas' heart in this specific moment means that this is the moment where Judas finally decides that he's definitely going to betray Jesus
Read the book
You're telling me to read the book yet struggle with basic text comprehension
Jesus is telling Judas to continue on with his plans,
Yet he chooses to continue with his plan of betrayal
You are telling me that Jesus told Judas to "continue on with his plans" and then you tell me that it is a "plan of betrayal"
You're trying to put words into Jesus' mouth that he never said.
The only one who did that is whoever wrote the gospel.
First of all this verse is a clear reference to John 6:70 - 71 where Jesus directly mentions that one of his disciples is a devil and the biblical author points out that Jesus is talking about Judas
If he is already a devil, why does Satan need to enter?
Satan entering Judas' heart in this specific moment means that this is the moment where Judas finally decides that he's definitely going to betray Jesus
And when that happens Jesus tells him to do it, exactly what I'm telling you
Not the sharpest tool in the drawer, are you? I'm done with repeating myself and explaining you the basics of the Bible like you're a 9 year old in a Sunday school. I'm sure there are countless books and articles online that explain it all and show why Judas did act out of his free will. You can check them out if you want
Ok but to just assume that the omnipotent being that needed Judas to do a specific thing and constantly interacted with him for years had no affect or influence on his decision making at any point seems absurd. How can we know Jesus didn't subtly manipulate Judas down the path that leads to man kinds salvation?
The time frame doesn't really matter here. We're technically talking about God that is all knowing (according to the Bible). He knows what you will choose to do even before you do it
It is a prerecorded match in which you create the rules, the rules of physics, the players and that you only play so that the result is exactly what you want.
Not only that you actually enter the match and tell Judas to make a foul.
No he doesn't have a choice. It literally says so right in the bible. Jesus knew Judas would betray him, which is exactly why he chose him as a disciple
I explained it in the other comment. Jesus knowing beforehand Judas would betray him doesn't mean that Judas didn't act out of his free will. Humans being able to choose their own destiny is a very important message in the Bible
I don’t think it was so much as “he was destined to betray Jesus no matter what” so much as “Jesus knew with 100% certainty what was about to happen but didn’t do anything so Free Will could run its course.”
Ooo I read the apocrypha just recently, he essentially sits Judas down and tells him he has to betray him, then he goes into a whole fucking thing about this esoteric cosmic order, that God is just one of all these multiversal gods, that Gnosticism is right, and that Judas will ascend to the top level of Heaven with him.
I can see why the Council of Nicea decided not to include that in the bible, because what a left fucking hook that would have been, it essentially changes the whole message of the bible.
The bible always had multiple gods sort of baked into the background. There's a reason why the commandment is "thou shalt have no other gods before me", and not "thou shalt have no other gods".
Judaism, as it was practiced during the time when their traditions were being used as the basis for Christianity, was monotheistic. However, it was based on much older polytheistic traditions. You can see in the text where they have those transition points from acknowledging multiple gods but having a special covenant as a culture group to worship only one, into just straight up believing that there is only one God.
Free will was imported into christianity later on.
bro "free will" in bible is literally given the first ever humans, Adam and Eve, at the very beginning of the story. Which ended with their corruption and blah blah, but it's there from the start.
Welcome to christianity. You are given "free will", but also God has a plan. You will burn in hell for using that "free will" incorrectly, but also it's all Lord's will so whether you will or will not burn in hell is determined before you are born.
If I remember right, he was destined to betray Jesus but it was his choice for what to do after. While he felt remorseful and returned the money he was given,he didn't asked for forgiveness from God and turned back to him like others have done and were forgiven.
the concept of an omnipotent God that knows everything that has ever and will ever happen is also counter to the notion of free will. it's not possible for both of those things to exist in the same universe
theologically speaking Jesus could have fought his fate of being executed, but didn't because he knew his death would bring about the salvation of mankind.
The movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" does some exploration into what Jesus's life might have been if he had fought his fate.
Like, maybe beforehand Jesus is all going "it's part of the plan, it's ordained! All been worked out ahead, and this is the way it's gotta be"
And Judas is there thinking "he's the son of God right? And this is all part of the plan, right? He'll be fiiiiiiine!....right?" And then the fucker goes and gets chosen for death over Barabas, and is crucified. Taking all the sins of man with him... Except for those of Judas apparently!
Many issues emerge when you consider free-will, destiny, determinism, and God's knowledge and Capabilities. There is what I believe the "virgin" response which is to suggest ignorance of God's divinity and all it entails. The more "Chad" response that I prefer a person subscribe to is to simply point to God's divinity as an absolute. Does God condemn people to hell for all eternity? Yes, because he is God and God does as God does. Is it fair, just, or good to condemn souls to hell? Who cares God is. Is there any reason beyond his Divinity, No, God is. All attributes or descriptions of God are limited, when the truest definition is the simplest, God is.
All issues are flattened if you uphold Beinghood without need for description. Unfortunately for humans who presuppose certain assumptions, namely that communication need be purposeful and intelligible, these line of reasoning is insufficient.
But really most things are consequence of a dissimilarity, if one concludes, one concludes, whereas those lacking will not conclude.
I've only got cursory knowledge on the subject, but if we're gonna get into a serious discussion or if anybody feels curious, what Judas did (or did not) depends on the version of the story you're reading, and that generally degenerated in time.
If we consider the apocriphal, Judas's gospel (not written by him) had Jesus request Judas to "betray" him. This matches the different theology presented in Judas's gospel, which was gnostic (meaning we're trapped in a physical "false" plane created by an evil false god, the Demiurge), and therefore exonerates Judas from doing wrong, as it was Jesus's plan to be freed from the mortal plane. This is an entirely different Jesus altogether.
If we move on to the approved classics, if I recall correctly Mark came first and in his account, Judas's betrayal was implied to be within God's plan, for the sacrifice for our sins was necessary. This resonated with Judas's gospel, but made no mention on the aforementioned gnostic theology. God was one good and loving and decided to sacrifice himself to atone for our sins, past and future. I don't think Judas was said to be a particularly bad person in this version.
Then you get to Matthew, which presents Judas as a common thief before meeting Jesus (so greed and low moral fiber were to be expected), and then there's Luke, who pretty much says Judas is basically an agent for the Devil and evil.
I haven't researched this but it is my personal theory that the canonized versions are increasingly critical of Judas's figure to ensure the diverging gnostic thesis as presented in his gospel (which supposedly emerged a bit later) was discarded. This was all in theory within the first 100 years after Jesus, so christianity was still trying to come together and I assume that an opposing view on cosmology was a problem.
My denomination pittied Judas instead of judging or despising him. He was a cautionary tale that anyone, even someone standing next to the divine, could be tricked into doing something evil for the stupidest of reasons.
I always understood was that Judas fully believed Jesus was the messiah but the Jewish Theology version where he was a conqueror who would come and overthrow the roman rule and that by betraying him would force his hand to start the inevitable violent overthrow.
Technically all 12 disciples either thought of him as Jewsish Theology version or just someone holy (some of them probably never received education as fishermen), that's why all of the panicked and don't have the idea that Jesus will come back to life few days later
if we just talk about choice or fate, we can correlate with peter's denial of jesus before dawn. jesus knew, and peter denied til the last moments, but it still happened regardless.
if we take in regard to judas, jesus knew, and judas did what he would do. even at the last supper, "one will betray me" was a general accusation. it was just foretold in all matters because it was meant for jesus to complete his life.
if we consider what if it wasn't judas or someone else, well does it matter? jesus would know the outcome regardless.
The whole existence of Judas is questionable. Most likely, they made him up to make Jesus appear less lame. Jesus got pissed after John the Baptist got offed, stirred up some ruccus in the temple, and got caught and owned. That doesn't make a very good story, though.
It was like 8000$ back then. 4 months of work. Still a dumb play, Jesus could have multiplied the coins like he did with bread, acting like a central bank and making inflation soar due to the ways banks work, specifically the rules about coin minting. You can easily see what would have happened by searching "Jesus Judas Rule 34 Inflation".
Playing Devil's Advocate here, but a reason banks make those loans to people they know can't pay them back is because if they didn't, they'd be potentially looking at a massive Civil Rights lawsuit, e.g. underwriting all those subprime mortgages which were disproportionately and knowingly made by Fannie Mae to Black homebuyers, which would cost them hundreds of millions of dollars if they won. So they make these loans knowing they're going to take a loss, and they have to recoup as much of it as possible, unless they want to drag the person that they have made an unpayable loan to (again, they could very easily be sued into the next decade for racial discrimination if they didn't) to bankruptcy court, and that could drag on for years. Tl;dr Banks aren't inherently the Devil and homebuyers, particularly first-time homebuyers who aren't of means are caught in a four-way fight between mortgage brokers, banks, Congress, and the courts.
I'm not agnostic, I'm atheist but willing to except evidence otherwise. I'm going to need to be on my end just the same as if you told me you had an invisible dragon in the garage.
"Now what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all?" - Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark.
It's a good position. I love the position. It is however an agnostic position. There might be a dragon, but it is irrelevant to our current predicament because it is outside of our sensible experience, so we might as well act as if there is no dragon.
It would be dumb to avoid going to the garage because of the dragon, but it would be as dumb as going to the garage for no reason because there is no dragon. It doesn't go and try to disprove the existence of the dragon, because that's a fool's errand.
I do engage in the flipside. It is kind of useful to act as if someone (call it God, Karma, Susan from the internet crime division (hi Susan)) was watching me, if not for the whole experience of myself, for the times when I am not acting as if I was watching myself.
Precisely! Arguing about the literal, objective existence of the unfalsifiable dragon is a moot and pointless intellectual exercise. We should not base our empirical view of the world on it. However, the idea still has its uses. Psychologically at least. Isn't the hypothetical dragon a tool we are using right now?
Even the religious texts that we presume are fake and for all we care they can be, if taken a look through historical analysis glasses, we can understand more about the way our ancestors thought and we can draw conclusions and implications about that.
The islamic custom of having a clean hand to cook with and a dirty hand for hygiene is an example of that. We can find that it is a good way to reduce harmful microbe spread. The same for the meat that can be eaten, because pork has a lot of parasites... Also to not eat animals that did not die by ritual death (because if they died "naturally" something killed them, and might still be in their bodies and cause harm to the person that eats it).
We should also be careful not to fall into the pit of "well if my holy book says that it must be for a good reason" and analyze what is the reason behind every word and how it applies to us.
Do you by any chance live in a very religious area? I remember saying I was agnostic in an attempt to find common ground with those who believe without evidence and not calling their insanity what it really is by saying I'm atheist.
It doesn't work, you can't use logic with the illogical. Save your time and just say you're an atheist. Until there's evidence of magic in observable reality, you and me are in the same boat.
Oh, no, I am really agnostic. I'm not an atheist though I respect those who are the same as I respect the religious people.
I do not, however, condone using religion to force how others act, nor do I believe that religion (any) or atheism should be the main force driving your actions.
If there is a god (we can't know) how can we know which one it is (do we eat meat on a Friday or not?) and if we are doing the correct thing? We also shouldn't act like there is no superior driving universal force (we also can't know) and thus allow ourselves to be completely selfish, because that would mean that in the prisoner dilemma, we all would confess and thus we would all lose.
wasnt religious my self either, but doesn't mean it gonna stop me from exploring random topic. I just found an orangutan boxing video too, had high expectations, was disappointed.
The label agnostic is a little misused generally, you can either believe in god (theism) or not believe in god (atheism), however, the term agnostic refers to the amount of knowledge or certainty that you have, they're used in conjunction
e.g. Agnostic Atheist: Doesn't believe in a god, but doesn't know for sure if it exists
Gnostic Atheist: Doesn't believe in a god and claims that none exist
Agnostic Theist: Believes in a god, but doesn't know for sure if it exists
Gnostic Theist: Believes in a god and claims that it (or they) do exist
I don't think that's necessarily the case for every agnostic. I'm more atheistic now as my definitions of the word have changed, but my reasoning was that both theism and atheism are affirmations, and as such, agnosticism is simply saying "we do not know".
I stopped calling myself agnostic because atheism has been commonly defined as simply the lack of belief, not necessarily an affirmation that there are no gods, so I saw no functional difference between the agnosticism I held and atheism. But some people might still have old ideas and definitions.
Which is valid. I'm also sour on religion as I grew up very religious like you. Nowadays, I've grown to be neutral about it since I don't tend to engage or surround myself with very religious folk, but I do sometimes feel the old bitterness and anger when I come across one of the delusional nutjobs.
I would not go as far as to say that. I hold the belief that god might exist or might not exist. My thoughts on that area are not black and white. When you throw a coin and don't reveal the result yet, there might be heads or tails inside. You hold no knowledge of there being tails or heads on your hand. How can you possibly decide if one is true or false? That is not the same as actually denying the tails or affirming it's tails.
While on principle that is true in some sense, on the other hand, I believe god exists, just the same as I believe god doesn't exist. Am I an atheist theist, a theist atheist, or some third, other thing? The proposition of god existing or not is already flawed. What exactly and precisely is this god thing we are talking about? Are we talking about a conscious decision maker that bends the rules of the universe at his will? Are we talking about a karmic order where we reincarnate based on our flawed personalities and mistakes? Is this god the subatomic distance between particles, the quantum entanglement, the chemical reactions in our brain? Is god the will of the heavens that sends a lightning strike whenever a cultivator is reaching nascent soul?
Most importantly, what does this all mean and where will it take us? I find the question to be unrelated to what we can experience. The question is mostly meaningless. We haven't even defined what god is, not even the theologists know, nor can they know. It's like being at the soccer field and asking without outside knowledge if cars exist. What is a car? There is no experience of a car, there is nothing about cars in the soccer manual.
I am arguing for the sake of arguing over terminology like a pedantic dumb idiot but please bear with me, I have Aspergers disease and I find this incredibly fun. What do you mean by god, exactly? On the level of logic, not your own definition of what a god is. How can you link the concept of god (or more egregiously, a god), which exists outside of the sensible experience, with us, who can only experience the sensible?
No, I don't feel like engaging in that right now. I made the point I wanted to make. What you're asking is an entirely different discussion that I'm not interested in having.
Neither will Americans. Even taking into account our medical and insurance costs we have more disposable income then Europeans. Our mean and median income vs cost of living are just that much higher then yours.
The percentage of American who have ever declared bankruptcy in their lifetime is ~0.15%.
Even if 100% of those were caused by medical dept (not true obviously) it would still affect only a small fraction of 1 percent of Americans.
I’ll take my chances with the near guaranteed higher pay and lower cost if living for the same job compared to Europeans in exchange for a less then 0.2 percentage chance of declaring bankruptcy due to medical bills. But you do you, dumbass.
Where did you get that statistic cause from what I found on multiple sources it’s 14% of US adults have filed for bankruptcy, and only 13% of bankruptcies filed were from business. To add to that 4.4 % were chapter 11 for personal, meaning the VAST majority of bankruptcies in the US are personal and chapter 7 (failure to repay debts).
The vast majority of economists agree it will continue to be 10% of adult Americans will file for bankruptcy in their lifetime.
And get this. 66% of all bankruptcies in the US were caused by what? MEDICAL DEBT.
Bro your numbers are either completely made up or given to you by Trump himself. Medical debt in the USA has a 6.5% to completely ruin your life.
Here are the actual stats. I was slightly off, it is now 0.12% of Americans, not 0.15%. https://finmasters.com/personal-bankruptcy-statistics/#gref
I assume the 14% you got is from these reports since your other numbers also match up with it. https://www.debt.org/bankruptcy/statistics/
But if you try really hard to actually read it properly, you'll see it says bankruptcy filling increased by 14% during 2024 compared to 2023, not that 14% of US citizens filed. So what it is actually saying is the extremely small percentage of bankruptcy filing was multiplied by 1.14 to get a still extremely small percentage.
But hey don't worry buddy, I'm sure if you practice, you'll eventually achieve the literacy level of a 5th grader so you can read statistics properly. Keep trying, I'm rooting for you!
Yeah ignore that guy he has the statistics completely wrong. It’s 14% of adult Americans who file for bankruptcy and 66% of that is due to medical debt.
Trust me bro you’re far bettter off with universal health care.
I wouldn't worry too much, the yankwank will wake up in a hospital bed one day and immediately ask the the nurse for a morphine hotshot so they don't bankrupt their family.
I do not live on the US. I don't know US salaries. It depends on where you live and stuff but generally I assumed 2k a month, 24k a year, for the lowest paid. Sounded reasonable in my head. According to Deepseek federal minimum is 7,5$ hourly. Some farmer in rural Arkansas makes that for sure.
30 silver coins were 120 denarius weren't they? From chat gpt "the original "30 pieces of silver" from the Bible were Tyrian shekels (worth 4 denarii each), not denarii themselves."
It wasn’t about the money for Judas it was fear and worry that Jesus was being too extra doing too much and being too open about his views. Judas wanted him to
Dial it down because he figured if they kept it low key they would get more
Followers and have a stronger message. He was like ok your the son of god but can you not like say it so much?
Knows a guy is totally faking it due to being in his inner circle
Somehow is the only one smart enough to see through it
Betray the charlatan
They say everybody will curse me for rest of history
Nah humans can't be this gullible
I remember being told one idea, which was that Judas wanted to push Jesus into leading the Israelites to completely stomping the Romans with Jesus' messiah powers. Jesus was being too peace and love, so Judas figured he could force Jesus's hand by giving him no alternative.
But then Jesus was like Psych, still not leading an army, and fucking dies.
It was a horrible decision in any regard but I always took it as him being lead to do so by god himself, or god allowing him to be tempted rather than protect against it, since Judas needed to betray Jesus in order for him to be crucified and everyone's sins to be cleared
idk it's been a really long time since I last went through the bible but off the top of my head that's what always made sense to me when I was kid
I mean even the Egyptians had sorcerers that was a whole thing in the bible with moses and the staff turning into a bigger snake and eating the other snake they made. Bible had a lot of weird things in it that get over looked
There are exactly 0 accounts of the miracles outside of the bible. Do you know in the gospel of Matthew when there is an earthquake and suddenly thousands of people raise from the death? No mention either, not even in the other gospels.
Because if we talk about the Bible we need to take the things written in there as true, instead we can just forget about any discussion about the Bible and discuss about the religion itself and how it's viable.
But a Theist-Atheist discussion was not the original topic here or am I wrong?
Because if we talk about the Bible we need to take the things written in there as true
No?? You are drawing conclusions from false premises. You cannot say that the jews ignored miracles if you cannot prove that the miracles happened in the first place. You are making up a scenario to draw the conclusions you want.
But a Theist-Atheis
Christianity is not the only religion, in Judaism Jesus was a nobody because he did not perform miracles.
Didn't this discussion start with a christian perspective? Why even talk about Judas or any events in the Bible if everthing didn't happen. The "not believing in miracles Jews" also aren't existing if the Bible isn't taken as truth and the discussion has nothing to discuss
Christianity is not the only religion
Oh yes I forgot we spoke about the holy script of the Jews and the writings of confucius in which this events and Judas betrayal is written. Sorry for arguing only in a christian narrative how foolish of me
The christian perspective is that judas was possessed by Satan, not what you mentioned.
Yes in one gospel other times it's just mentioned he betrays him but without mentioning his true motivation.
All four of the gospels talked about how he was charged for blasphemy
I'm not talking about on what he was charged for but on why the Jews turned on him and "not being the Messiahs he was thought to be" is the reason.
Literally hours ago before his arrest he was praised as a King in Jerusalem, the priest couldn't even arrest him for some time as they wanted because they were scared of the people.
They Jews turned on him after being captured because they realized that a Messiahs they hoped him to be wouldn't himself let be so degraded.
Your point makes no sense he never said something new which caused the (non priest) jews to think of him as a blasphemer suddenly instead of before, so how can this be the reason they turned on him?
Because as I have told you, the story does not make sense as it makes invalid assumptions.
Yes in one gospel other times it's just mentioned he betrays him but without mentioning his true motivation.
So which one is correct?
Literally hours ago before his arrest he was praised as a King in Jerusalem, the priest couldn't even arrest him for some time as they wanted because they were scared of the people.
They Jews turned on him after being captured because they realized that a Messiahs they hoped him to be wouldn't himself let be so degraded.
How? Why is that very key detail ommited? How did everyone realize at the same time? How do you know that is the reason?
Can't say, I take everthing in the Bible for true or for wrong, there can't be the truth filtered out.
I was stating Judas possible motivation because we have nothing else to go by beside Stan's possession which also can or can't be taken literally.
I don't particularly know the reason, but it's most plausible Argument if we take the mindset of the people in that current time into account and the old testament (about which I can't say much currently)
They probably realized it after the roman soldiers mocked Jesus instead of freeing Jews from roman oppression.
Additionally, Matthew was written after the other Gospels and its believe the miracles were added to give credence to Jesus being divine instead of just a Prophet. You would think the letters and subsequent apocrypha letters/books would make mention of miracles in some regard either supporting or adding to other arguments.
You snatched a downvote from someone but analyzing the texts from an objective historical perspective is probably a good idea here. Jesus probably existed for real, Judas or some analogue of him probably existed, Jesus' miracles were kind of obviously not really miracles because miracles don't actually occur, and so it makes more sense for someone to betray him for money.
I might catch some downvotes for saying miracles don't occur or that Jesus didn't do them. I'm not taking a strong stance, maybe jesus is god and all the stuff in the bible really did occur, I don't know. What I can say is that I don't really have evidence of that besides the bible and I don't see miracles occuring today, and so I kinda believe they didn't happen in the past either.
Well it's false to say that we have no evidence of them, there is at least some evidence depending on your definition, whether you think that's good or bad evidence for the case that's up to you. There are several books about it and there is a social movement surrounding Jesus so that's something. I personally don't think it's good evidence, since every religion and then some claim to have miracles, and there are plenty of other books claiming someone else is god, but yeah.
I think that's more It. Judas was somewhat jaleous of Jesus, and is also many times portrayed as selfish. So the fact that Jesus didn't want a life of luxury for him or his followers pissed him off.
Sorry but not much about judas is stated in the Bible.
For instance, it is never mentioned that he was jealous of Jesus, not once.
Whats mentioned is that he is selfish yes but wouldn't call it "many" times. It's mentioned that he takes part of their money for himself (sign of his selfishness) and in each gospel it's repeated for a total of four times that he betrayed Jesus for money (also selfish) but that it.
Thats only two unique scenarios of his selfishness, which is still enough to make your statement true that he is selfish. I just wanted to correct the exaggerated parts and the wrongly attribute of him being jealous.
The last part is just speculation and interpretations of his character, which can be done but it's better to stay mostly with the words of the Bible.
I'm not talking about the Bible but popular culture, that's why i said portrayal. Since in Spain Semana Santa is very important, we have a lot of representations of the events leading up to the crucifixión and resurrection.
Well, if you check the prophecies he can't be the Messiah, since that's supposed to be a descendant of David. Joseph's lineage traces back to David, Mary's doesn't*. So he can't be the son of god if he's the messiah.
*Yes people claim that Luke traces her lineage but that's extremely unclear and her being related to a Levite makes it even more unreliable
There is only one Devil and only one God in the Bible. Lucifer is simply a different name for The Satan, same as Diablos, Beelzebub, Baal, etc.
In early books, the term "satan" may refer to any human adversaries, but later it mostly refers to a supernatural entity. With a definitive article, "The Satan" refers to the one devil and not the concept of satan.
Lucifer is the morning star who rebelled against God. Satan is the opposer who argues with God on every decision.
Diablos is the Spanish word for devil or demon. Beelzebub is a different entity known as the Lord of flies.
And baal refers to another religion's God, the carthaginians. ( the carthaginians would sacrifice their children to baal for Good Harvests)
Done reading that Wikipedia article. Satan is not equivalent with Lucifer until more recently. In fact Lucifer appears to be a new testament creation in order to justify the Doomsday Cult's beliefs.
That thing with baal is one hell of a mental leap.
And what Hebrew word was diabolos translated from?
That thing with baal is one hell of a mental leap.
So is religion TBF.
And what Hebrew word was diabolos translated from?
It has a similar meaning in Greek but I don't know which term is was translated from:
[...] This in turn was borrowed from the Greek διάβολος diábolos, "slanderer", from διαβάλλειν diabállein, "to slander" from διά diá, "across, through" and βάλλειν bállein, "to hurl" [...]
Not unless you want to read the ancient Hebrew Old Testament text. In which Satan is viewed as The Devil's Advocate who constantly argues against God's decisions and is given authority to tempt Mortals to sin
You're right the Devil's Advocate has nothing to do with the Old Testament but that's just because it's a modern interpretation of his actual job. The name Satan means opposer in the old Hebrew therefore Satan's job is the argue with with God. God just allowed those other people to argue with him to humor them.
Mostly his job is to argue the other side's point. For example if everyone, including God, agrees that one action is the correct way to do something his job is to argue the exact opposite.
Isn't Satan literally The Devil's Advocate on the side of God? The Bible does make a distinction between Lucifer and Satan being separate entities. Couldn't be that Satan on orders of God was sent down to test Jesus.
I don't know about Satan and Lucifer being different people,I only remember what I learned from grandma and fourth grade but isn't Jesus God as well? Maybe it's like that for Satan as well. Like he was Lucifer when he was in the heavens, then after his downfall he separated himself from former self so much he became someone else.
The bible doesn't make a distinction for Lucifer and Satan, but it doesn't make a notion that they're the same entities either. The "Devil" could also be something else entirely. And yes, Jesus is God personified.
There are multiple interpretations to Lucifer and Satan, and the Devil. Satan is most often thought to be the Devil, but Lucifer isn't always considered to be a name of Satan. Modern popular fiction makes them all the same entity, which is also an interpretation of the bible's text, not necessarily false.
Satan can't possess people. The common translation to English is "one of you is a devil". If you look at the greek, it's more along the lines of "one of you is allied with the devil/evil/the adversary"
There are tens of examples of people possessed by demons in the new testament. Many of which speak directly to Jesus. Are those also metaphores? The guy possessed by Legion was also a metaphore?
The line that Satan entered into Judas isn’t from Jesus, it’s just narrated by the author. Jesus calling his betrayer out is a separate reference to Satan.
I mean, maybe Judas didn't think it would actually kill Jesus? Maybe he thought it was a smart way to make some extra coin on the side? He did try to buy him back after he saw that Jesus was, in fact, letting himself be killed. And when he was told no, Judas threw the silver on the ground and went and hung himself. To me anyway, that sounds like someone who didn't actually want Jesus dead.
Not that much. The point of 30 shekels was to point out how cheaply Judas betrayed Jesus.
Going off silver conversion rates, 30 Shekels is roughly equal to 108 Denarii. The salary for a Roman Legion (est 13BC by Augustus) was 225 Denarii before bonuses/deductions. We do have some accounts that an average frontier border post Legionary took home about 150~ Denarii per year after deductions. Legionaries were paid well but not extravagantly (ignoring bonuses), lets put it around the buying power of 60-80k/year USD today (ok 10 years ago since the economy is currently fucked) which is in line with historic sources.
This means Judas betrayed Jesus for about 20-30k USD. Its a lot, but not a lot. Ultimately no matter what your station in life is, 20k USD is nothing. Just enough to fix current issues, but not enough to buy your way out of your situation and forget it ever happened. Judas killed the son of God for a bit of temporary happiness.
Okay but in his defense, he saw Jesus do some crazy shit so he probably thought "Oh, even if I sell him out he'll get out of this one and I get silver. Win win."
well it's mean it's been 2000 years and he's not back
The prophecy for the Second Coming has not been fulfilled for him to come back. There are several things required for this to happen:
Conversion of Israel to Christianity.
Defiliment of the Temple (aka the 3rd Temple, which btw is about to be rebuilt now that the pure Red Hefer was sacrificed correctly, yeah it happened quietly about 2 weeks ago. Technically according to Jewish prophecy the Son of God can now actually come to Earth once its built and may already be here/born for the first time)
The other requirements are either from Matthew (sus book) or already done such as Christians on every land.
Not to mention it could "happen at any time" after everything is done.
well according to Orthodox theology, the more gold you have in your altar and the more expensive your Audi is, the more Jesus somethings.. so let's see that wallet (we also take NFC payments tho)
There's a reason why non-canonical texts are not canon though. They are akin to fan fiction and have tons of things in them that are completely loopy or conflicting with other sources, they were written long after the other gospels, etc.
There's a reason why non-canonical texts are not canon though.
Yeah, because someone in charge decided they didn't want/like said texts as they may have conflicted with something they were trying to push. It happens every time a new version of the bible comes around and has since the Torah.
Though you're prob right on the Book of Judas as it was written/appeared 100+ years afterwards. The further away from the source the more suspect they are.
Sup Jesus, I just funded your ministry, They wanted to give me thirty pieces of Silver, but I negotiated for 60. I knew you'd be back so I kept it for you. (Bonfire of Dreams track plays)
Man knew he fucked it. Committed TPK on his solo adventure. Judas sure was not smart. I think it was an opportunity that the greedy pauper took on from the reigning emperor who was looking for the heretical faction that was gaining power. Wonder if Judas ever wrote a book before he took the sudden stop.
Romans were still looking for him though, right? Its kinda crazy that no one tried to discredit Jesus instead of killing him. Another person doing the same things suddenly makes the feats Jesus conjured not so mystical. The death of a political leader is always tragic to the leader's supporters and seeing their leader painted as more human than expected is detrimental to the leader. Jesus' religion is now one of the world's largest and strongest religions thanks to the Romans.
But imagine if Jesus didn't die. Martyrdom makes the religious fervent. Sadly, Jesus died so young too. He at least had another good 10-20 years. Maybe he would have done other marvelous miracles.
Years ago, probably on 4chan, I saw a picture of books that were in the bible, and in the same picture, books in the bible that were banned. If anyone has this picture please send it to me. Books included most likely Book of Enoch, Judas, etc.
To be honest he probably thought it was not the son of God and was a high level wizard. He probably thought he'd lightning spell the Romans that came after him and he'd get a free cheeky 30 gold shillings or whatever. Dude was probably mortified to see that he actually ended up dying to them
Judas was following Jesus orders. Jesus knew what he came to do, told the disciples what was about to happen, and then told Judas flat out to make quick work of it. People who hate Judas have poor reading comprehension.
"What's my deal? What's my deal!? I'm mother fucking Jesus Christ! This mother fucker thought he could betray me to the Romans! Well, you can't fuck with a wizard, can you!?"
tinydeepvalue@reddit
Judas was guided by devine intervention. He was jesus best friend but he had to betray him for jesus to achive his final form.
Without judas, jesus wouldn't end up where he got today.
It was destiny, and you cant fight fate.
Tablesafety@reddit
That’s something that’s true, and has also always bothered me, because he was made to betray the son of God but also still suffered dearly for it.
ClarkFable@reddit
Why does fake stuff bother you?
Tablesafety@reddit
This comment is a month old just about, for you to ask you must be very curious.
I think you are engaging with me as if you are about to debate or ‘gotcha’ a believer, and that isn’t the first time someone has read this comment and assumed as such.
The simple answer is that I, as a human being- as well as you- have the amazing capacity to engage with stories and form feelings and opinions about them regardless of if they are fact or fiction. The moral lesson fable has always been crucially important to how our species has developed and passes down lessons for thousands and thousands of years, which Fable being your own namesake I would expect you to know.
When I said that it was True Judas betrayed Jesus and was made to suffer for it, I didn’t mean it was objective historical fact, I meant that in the Bible Judas betrayed Jesus and was made to suffer for it, it’s written in there; True in the same way it’s true Galadriel gave her hair to Gimli.
Would you ask the same question of someone on an old ass comment expressing feelings of sorrow or questioning morality on a discussion sub for Game of Thrones? Regardless of your answer, I am doubtful of it.
And for the record, no. I am not of any Faith or Religion. I am being so snarky because even I can recognize going out of your way to antagonize someone you think is though is really fucking rude. Certainly makes it seem like someone pissed in your cheerios, mate.
ClarkFable@reddit
Sir, this is a Wendys. But in all seriousness, I get being emotional about fiction, but only when it’s good (well written) fiction. Ngl kinda shocked someone commenting on green text would think the Bible is good enough to get emotional about. And as for the delayed reply, I can only blame Reddit for their default sorting mechanism.
Have a good day sir.
Tablesafety@reddit
I didn’t want to call you an asshole because you might have just been having a bad day, but god damn were you intent on convincing myself and everyone who comes by in the future that you are one. Let people enjoy things mate, and if you must look down on someone for doing so, doing it quietly would make you infinitely more likable. Hope that helps.
ClarkFable@reddit
Ok, /u/Born_Jelly_9807 You keep lying to yourself and everyone else. I’m sure it will all work out.
Born_Jelly_9807@reddit
Why do Reddit comments bother you?
ClarkFable@reddit
They don’t. I was interested. Thought you might be a bot. Case closed, I guess
Born_Jelly_9807@reddit
You should take a shower. I can tell you’re a short fatty.
ninetailedoctopus@reddit
Predestination is a bitch.
NegativeMammoth2137@reddit
No this wasn’t predestined. Most Christian denominations don’t believe in predestination as it would mean there’s no free will which is one of the most important core tenants of Christianity. He was likely guided but still chose to act on his own
gnarlyhobo@reddit
Can I pick your brain for a minute?
God is omnicient and all powerful, yes? God knows everything that was, is, and will be, yes? If so, there is no free will, only the illusion. If God knows what choices you will make before you make them, how is that functionally different from the choices being predestined?
Thoughts? Genuinely curious.
breadandcompany@reddit
God knows. But you don't know. The free will is you learning what you will do. The choice you make still leads to the outcome. From your perspective, you have made a decision and learned from it. All God does here is know what will happen. Like when you know what a good friend is going to say before they say it. They've exercised free will, but your friendship allowed you to predict it. You are not controlling them, and God is not controlling you. He simply knows
At least this is how I see it
DryConfidence77@reddit
thats not free will or determination… If you understood these words definition you would agree that theres no free will because in both your examples it is an example of that.
gnarlyhobo@reddit
Free will does not equate to learning what you are predestined to do.
Giraff3sAreFake@reddit
Because God doesnt experience time like we do, its not one thing then another, its everything at once iirc
ManBeSerious@reddit
whatever that means
BeakerBunsenStan@reddit
You say "no this wasn't predestined" as if you speak with literally any authority. "Most" implies nothing other than just that. Most don't think god behaves a certain way. Maybe the JWs are right and only 144,000 are going to heaven.
You're Christian aren't you? You give off the typical "My faith is [BELIEF], so I can speak as to exactly what God was thinking during [SCENE]" energy. I'd urge you to consider your own biases as to what you consider truth and what gave you those biases. How lucky you must be to have been born in the exact correct denomination who worship the exact correct god in the exact correct way. Thank goodness you're not one of those poor lost souls who worship the wrong god. They go through their whole lives being told by their friends and family that their denomination and method of worship is the correct one. But not you.
onarainyafternoon@reddit
What if Jesus told Judas to betray him? And we just don't know that's what happened.
Squidwardsuglycousin@reddit
It actually says this in the Gospel of Judas which has not been canonized.
SClute@reddit
Not been canonized is a phrase that seems to imply some level of historical parity with the gospels. The earliest manuscript is from 280, in comparison to the gospel of John which has manuscripts as early as 125 AD.
HDYHT11@reddit
It also says this in the Gospel of John
9793287233@reddit
*tenets
UnkindPotato2@reddit
Christians broadly are super duper good at ignoring parts of the bible like Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:4-5 that clearly state that God predestines out fate simply because they'd rather make up their own morality and say it comes from the Bible rather than conform their morality to what the Bible says
Also because if you attempt to critically analyze the Bible you're gonna have a bad time because it doesn't make any sense and is full of things like "God predestines us to do things but will punish you for doing the wrong thing because you totally have free will even though everything is predestined".
Trying to read and understand the Bible (or, really, most religious texts) from the standpoint that it is all literal truth is basically the Olympics of mental gymnastics
SteveFrench12@reddit
Get this anti calvinist bullshit off my reddit screen /s
The_Salacious_Zaand@reddit
Lol at all you Calvanists going to be crying in Hell while me and the other 139,999 Jehova's Whitnesses are chilling up in Heaven.
obvious /s
Hot_KarlMarx@reddit
God looks out for the little sparrows in the sky, he's gonna look out for the guy in the chair. That's how God works.
rapturewastaken@reddit
Way she goes, bud
SteveFrench12@reddit
What the he’ll are you talking about dad
tarmagoyf@reddit
Yea, he was guided by Jesus who told him what to do.
Cute_Prune6981@reddit
He didn't have to suffer for it. All he had to do is ask for forgiveness. However he decided to kill himself even tho he was given a chance to continue living thanks to the branch that he wanted to use to hang himself breaking. However Judas never did any asking of forgiveness and instead persisted at his task of killing himself, which he succeeded.
Tablesafety@reddit
If *you* killed the son of God for a cool 30 bucks, would you feel like you deserved to ask forgiveness?
Cute_Prune6981@reddit
Maybe, I would have to be in that situation to know for certain .
smallneedle@reddit
If he didn't end himself and actually repent he will be saved by grace despite the betrayal, non of the other disciples believed Jesus can come back to life, non of them actually understand what Jesus' salvation or heaven is supposed to be, their faith of the prophecy were assumingly lost. Yet they are still saved once they witnessed and have the grace appears in front of them.
Fit_Pension_2891@reddit
A lot of the suffering that he was put through was added afterwards because people were real pissed about him, so don't worry. Realistically he prob didn't face much fallout; personally my headcanon of the Bible is that Jesus asked Judas to do it to fulfill his destiny or whatever (iirc there was mention of the Son of God being crucified or sacrificed for man's sins in Jewish texts long before Jesus happened). Basically all the stuff about Judas going to hell and killing himself out of shame or being dragged through the streets and beaten are all just revenge fanfics.
Lemon_Pledge_Bitch@reddit
inshallah
TheBlueEmerald1@reddit
He killed himself and technically Jesus would have been caught anyway. Judas just made it come faster.
HDYHT11@reddit
Jesus literally told Judas to betray him.
TheBlueEmerald1@reddit
I remember him saying that he knew what Judas was gonna do but not that he was telling him to do it unless I missed something.
HDYHT11@reddit
John 13:27
TheBlueEmerald1@reddit
Was that at the moment of it happening because I don't see that as Jesus telling him what to do but more saying "Get it over with" if it's at the moment.
HDYHT11@reddit
That is during the last supper, after jesus speaking about the betrayal, after satan enters judas and just before judas leaves to betray him.
What exactly do you think he means there lmao
TheBlueEmerald1@reddit
That still sounds like "Get it over with I don't wanna sit here anticipating it."
HDYHT11@reddit
Even if we interpret it that way it sounds like jesus gives the ok. At no point does he tell him not to, 0 opposition.
TheBlueEmerald1@reddit
Well I'm not saying he is telling him no I'm just teying to interpret the intended tone of a line. Jesus is portrayed as outright not being happy with how it's supposed to end even if it's planned so I imagine the way he says the line is in a more anxious way. The argument is about whether Judas had free will in this scenario, and whether Judas was a part of the plan to begin with.
My interpretation is "I don't want to do this, I don't want to think about you doing this, but I have the knowlegde regardless, this was going to happen whether it was you or not so I forgive you for this, just hurry up and go do it already."
HDYHT11@reddit
It is impossible for Judas to not have been a part of the plan. God is omniscient.
Jesus is God and thus omnipotent. It only happened because Jesus wanted it to happen.
You are reading into this a lot of things that aren't there.
The simple matter of fact is that a) Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him b) Jesus gave Judas the Ok going with a very generous interpretation.
TheBlueEmerald1@reddit
This goes into philosophy of free will. Many stories in the bible happen due to those who defy God's will. The very first story is exactly this, and the very next one after that too. To be in defiance of God means free will. You could say that God purposefully made things to get angry at for some unknowable purpose, but sonce he is omnipotent why not just make the end goal now? If he is omnipotent, he could control people's will, so why not? The only conclusion is that he cpuld control things down to the atom, but chooses not to because the point is that he created us to have free will in the first place and is trying to guide us to something else.
The only conclusion I can draw from Jesus and Judas, is that whether Judas was there or not Jesus would be caught, but Jesus had the foreknowledge or just knew hia good friend long enough to come to teh conclusion he would end up choosing greed in the end. God could have set it up so specifically Judas would be the one to do it, but there isn't really any purpose to that and it would make no sense for Jesus to call it out or to say he is forgiven.
This can be shown with Lazarus. If the man was meant to die he would have stayed dead. Lazarus was in heaven so he wasn't suffering. Jesus cried for him anyway and brought him back to life. You could say that Jesus was just flexing power but if you look at the context it's clearly not the case.
At the end of Jesus's story he states that he is "Fully Man and Fully God, and you all will be too." He then joins God as his right hand. What this means to me at least is that Jesus's journey was meant, from the beginning, as a learning journey for Jesus himself. It's possible that both he and God found themselves to be above humans, but seeing as humans kept failing to live up to expectations God sent Jesus down as a human to understand them and their emotions better.
Jesus experienced everything humanity had to offer and even went to hell for 3 days. It's stated "All of humanity's sins were on his back and we are saved." Take this along with his "Fully Man and Fully God" line and his position in heaven, Jesus was sent down as a mediatir between man and God. His line means "We are both more alike than you think. I now know why you all feel the things you do and I understand why you sin. I can judge your place more accurately mow because I understand you all on a personal level. We can be even more alike in the future. I hope you all can make better choices now that I have brought wisdom. We will be joined together one day in this."
The story didn't have to go in any specific direction for any of this to happen but it just kind of happened the way it did. Humanity just made things happen the way it needed by being itself, Jesus didn't need to do anything.
HDYHT11@reddit
You are free to interpret the bible however you want, but your interpretation makes no sense if you also believe that Jesus is omniscient and omnipotent.
None of that is necessary being omniscient. He already knows that better than anybody else, by definition. Coming to Earth adds 0 to his knowledge.
Really? Where?
Jesus created humanity that exact way. You are writing this as if Jesus was someone who just stumbled one day on earth. Anything and everything happens only because God wants it to.
linkpopper@reddit
“Get it over with” - Jesus Christ text modernized for 2010s
BannedSvenhoek86@reddit
🤤🤤🤤
proudlyhumble@reddit
“Something that’s true” as if the bible has any realistic chance of being a true historical record
Tablesafety@reddit
Something that's true as in: yes that happened in the bible, bud.
proudlyhumble@reddit
Yes, that unimpeachable historical record that is the bible dude
Tablesafety@reddit
Go ahead and re-read what I wrote. I could say that Harry Potter duels Voldemort; Yes. That's true, that is a thing that happened in Harry Potter. It doesn't mean that I'm saying Harry Potter is real. You're rockin some grade school literacy, dumbass.
0rphu@reddit
If god is omnipotent, everything that will ever happen is known to him, so every "sin" committed by humanity was effectively entrapment.
WhenceYeCame@reddit
I never liked this interpretation, because the language of "Satan entered into someone" appears only here, and nowhere else. And early, it is said "the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas… to betray him". It all seems like a figure of speech for him just wanting to do it for personal reasons after being tempted, like all sin is supposed to be.
It's shakey, but I like some of the modern interpretations that he was a zealot who felt Jesus was not living up to his supposed role.
HDYHT11@reddit
The figure of speech implies the opposite. And you have similar things throughout the Bible, such as when God hardens the pharaoh's heart... which led to the deaths of thousands of kids.
WhenceYeCame@reddit
I find it weird that God's plan involves the independent choices of a trillion people throughout history, but he had to totally violate some people's free will in just a few instances because the plan just couldn't do it those times. It would make more sense that it all works the same. Judas was always going to make this choice just like all of us are fated to make our choices. No special puppeteering required.
HDYHT11@reddit
He does it all the time.
So God could not have designed a plan that does not need that? Are you insinuating that God is weak?
How? By whom?
WhenceYeCame@reddit
Well, that's exactly my point. Is God's plan, and therefore God, so weak that he or Satan have to puppeteer humans around to fulfill it? I don't think so. If you believe in free will, then his plan is fulfilled through human choice constantly. But he needed to activate cheats a few dozen times? Does it seem more likely that these are all just phrases to convey to the reader "God could have prevented this, but it was part of his plan, so he did not".
Well the original text is all over the place, so it's exact meaning has been debated by Jewish and Christian scholars for millennia. The subject and verb changes each time it's said "Pharaohs hardens his own heart" "God causes pharaohs heart to become heavy" "pharaoh remains stubborn all on his own". It's an age old question whether he was forced into it or not.
The Judas verse translation is more straightforward. Satan entered into Judas. Now what that means is still debatable, but I certainly find it harder to brush off.
HDYHT11@reddit
Except he does, all the time. The bible is literally a collection of God activating cheats. The flood, Babel, Exodus from Egypt, people granted supernatural powers, magic, etc...
Even in the new testament you have tens of tales of demons possessing people.
There is not a single point in the bible where god is shown to care about free will.
Not only is that not true in the most common and modern versions (kjv, catholic, etc..) You are reading the wrong passage. It is Exodus 7:3
"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt."
WhenceYeCame@reddit
I'll stop expanding semantics and try to get to the heart of it.
Do you actually believe this? Does free will even exist, in your mind? If God doesn't value it, why would it? He should just puppet me to make the right choices. Or does he only violate our wills to hurt other people?
Is it not more likely that he can send events/people/experiences that bolster our will, or he can withhold that from us? Our choices are still our own, from our limited viewpoint. But our own minds and personalities are still tossed about by the realities of the world, which is at God's command.
What is the point of redemption if there is no choice? What is the point of all the allusions of God as the bridegroom and us as the bride?
There are many other explanations and takes on why all these examples don't violate free will. Centuries of debate. I encourage you to read them.
HDYHT11@reddit
Nope, if free will exists God would not punish people who act badly nor would he intervene to reduce our free will.
Whose will did he bolster with the flood?
Really? Have you read them? Do you have a good source on the free will of the pharaoh or the flood that does not just play semantics? The only good argument I've seen is that God can do whatever he wants.
WhenceYeCame@reddit
I honestly don't know if that's a typo. Did you mean "If free will didn't exist"?
He didn't affect anyone's free will in the flood. Like I said, he affected the world.
Semantics is the study of the meaning of words, so not really? I can say there's people that explain it within the context of broader theocracy alongside semantics as I have tried to do.
Exodus
HDYHT11@reddit
How can you be free to choose if you are punished? Are you free to choose with a gun to your head? The catholic church certainly believes that duress removes the imputability, as well as many others.
Suddenly people stopped being able to make choices, to repent from their sins. Adults kids and babies alike. Guilty and innocent. You are acting is if free will is not a part of the world.
You tout debates and books and that is all you have? Remember that 1h ago you did not know that God said he was going to harden the pharaoh's heart and you told me that the translations are a mess, you must be joking 😂😂😂😂
WhenceYeCame@reddit
Because actions have consequences. If they didn't they wouldn't mean anything. It seems our worldviews are pretty opposed, we'd probably need a weekend and some beers to sort it out.
Sorry, you must have seen it before I fixed that, you can have another look.
HDYHT11@reddit
That is simply not true. Bad people live good lives and good people live bad lives. If God is just, why is this the case? The only way to explain is to come up with an afterlife where the roles are reversed and people are punished disproportionately. An idea borrowed from Egyptians, as jews and christians did not develop this escathology until later.
Regarding the sources, they both claim that it is clear that God hardens Pharaoh's heart, making it harder (not impossible) for the Pharaoh to choose freely. It is the only relevant point brought up by Origen, twice:
Origen is, as most of these books, tedious and does not say anything relevant as to why God did it. Instead it uses the story as a metaphor for the new testament 🥱. If there is something relevant be sure to tell me, as I only read epistle 4, but there certainly does not seem to be anything else.
Your second source actually disagrees with you: the argument is that God cheats but the pharaoh ultimately had the final decision. That if it wasn't for God's hardening the pharaoh would have done something else.
It also raises a very stupid point in my opinion: he argues that God does not control Moses because Moses rejects his command before eventually accepting it. Now, this might be true for anybody else, but for God this does not work. God wanted moses to do X and Moses does X, whether Moses does not want to is irrelevant. It is insulting, nigh blaspheous, to say an omniscient and omnipotent being has a backup plan.
All in all my conclusion from reading these texts is that Moses and Aaron wanted to let the Israelites go. The Pharaoh did not but was willing to come around. However, God intervened and made it so that the Pharaoh chose not to. Instead of softening he hardens. Instead of healing he kills.
WhenceYeCame@reddit
Depends on your definition of a 'good life'.
We seem to be starting into the very nature of God, justice, and morality. An expected outcome, but I'm not really feeling this conversation. You refuse to take the leap to my understanding or look anything up yourself, instead trying to assert that this isn't a long-held debate, actually? Doesn't seem like I get anything for my effort.
HDYHT11@reddit
I read what you told me to and they also agree that God needed to "cheat" and it is I who is not taking the leap?
WayneCobalt@reddit
So then God did not allow Judas free will? Seems kinda antithetical to God's whole free will deal.
AkOnReddit47@reddit
God merely having omnipotence and being Omni-benevolent is already paradoxical to the whole “free will” stuff
Everything either works out in his choice, including all the sins and sufferings and therefore he isn’t benevolent, or he is benevolent but isn’t omnipotent, and can’t really predict the future or the choice of the peoples
WayneCobalt@reddit
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
-Epicurus
jedec25704@reddit
I mean, any parent would tell you that you have to let your kids fail in order to grow as a person and learn how to become a functioning adult. I can step in and stop my kid from making mistakes or doing the wrong thing, but then they're not making their own decisions and learning autonomy. That's the argument a Christian would make; that a decision to be a good person, or close to God, is meaningless if it's predestined. It's only meaningful if you have the freedom to choose evil and reject it.
If I raise a robot kid who is programmed to love me and never disobeys my orders, is that real love? Or is it more meaningful to raise an actual child who has the capacity to think and act for themselves and still chooses to maintain a relationship with me as they get older?
WayneCobalt@reddit
Everything is pre-destined in Christianity. God has a "plan" that he is executing. He knows the future. He knows every possible decision everyone will make before they even make them.
He knew what Jeffrey Dahmer would do when he created him. He created him that way anyway, fully knowing what he would go on to do. God wouldn't even need to restrict free will to have stopped this- he could just simply create a Jeffrey Dahmer not inclined towards murder instead of making one inclined towards murder. God didn't choose to do that, though. He chose to make the Jeffrey Dahmer we got fully knowing what would happen. That is evil. If you are able to stop something evil, and simply choose not to, you are propagating evil.
God isn't like a parent. He knows every choice a person will make for their entire life before he even creates them. He could create them with different inclinations and they would then take different actions, meaning every evil thing is a direct consequence of God's actions. You could say "Well Dahmer was just socialized wrong by his parents" but then that just means it's still God's fault because God created his parents with their inclinations that resulted in the known outcome of Dahmer's life. God knew what the result of all his choices would be, and chose to go through with it anyway. If you believe God doesn't know the future then he's not omnipotent and consequently is not God. If he does know the future then he knowingly propagates evil.
jedec25704@reddit
> God isn't like a parent. He knows every choice a person will make for their entire life before he even creates them.
I always interpreted this to mean that God is like a parent. When I tutored students I would hand them a worksheet and tell them, "do these ten problems, I'm going to walk around the classroom and check on the others". I knew the ones who weren't going to do the worksheet, and which ones would sit quietly and finish the work on time. But I still had to give them the chance to make that choice.
WayneCobalt@reddit
Not analogous. You may have some idea of who will do what but you are not God. God knows what they will do their entire life before he even creates them.
It's internally incoherent to make a person knowing their entire future beforehand and then punish them for doing what you knew they'd do beforehand. That's just sadism creating something for the express purpose of punishing it. If God knows the future, then there cannot be free will. If God does not know the future, then he's not God.
HDYHT11@reddit
How does that shitty metaphore apply to an omnipotent God who controls every aspect of everyone's existance?
Why does God, a perfect being, need meaning? Hell, God could even define that as being more meaningful, he is omnipotent after all.
onarainyafternoon@reddit
I feel like this logic pretty conclusively destroys the idea of there actually being a Christian God. It's pretty simple logic to follow.
googlin@reddit
Bottommaxxxing?
Music_Saves@reddit
If you read Exodus, you will see that before everyone in the plagues the pharaoh was going to let the Jews go, but then as the Bible states “god hardened the pharaohs heart and he would not let them go” so God was purposely fucking with the Jews AND the Egyptians so that there would be a cool story. God wanted to be able to show Egypt how powerful he was so even though the pharaoh was willing to let them go God didn’t want them to so he could keep increasing his shows of power.
Boba0514@reddit
free will is a psyop
Thin_General_8594@reddit
More like right person, right place, Judas chose to be a jealous prick, god just made sure he was born close to Jesus
Deletesystemtf2@reddit
That sounds like entrapment
dani6465@reddit
Legally speaking to commit entrapment you must be a public law enforcement official, so I it is a waste of money for Judas to sue god.
JeffMcJeffGuy@reddit
Never in my life was I expecting a philosophical debate about Christian beliefs to involve talk about whether God would be found guilty of entrapment as a LEO, but here we are, creating never before stated sentences.
ManBeSerious@reddit
this was definitely said before a lto of times
Deletesystemtf2@reddit
I feel like given god is the guys who decides who to chuck down to hell/let in to heaven, I think he probably counts
runswithclippers@reddit
God is kind of a dick, just read the Old Testament. He’s a toddler throwing temper tantrums every five minutes.
gazerbeam-98@reddit
Judas had to betray Jesus and for following through on this duty he is tortured in the lowest pit of hell? Doesn’t make sense lol
User_identificationZ@reddit
He in Hell. On some real shit, God/Jesus/Holy Spirit’s whole thing is “Do only good, but if you do bad don’t worry you can repent and be good again.” Judas had the opportunity to repent after betraying the Son of God (I think in Luke it says he was quite literally possessed by Satan, so it might not have been his actions and thus wouldn’t need to). He might have earned himself a few thousand years of Purgatory, which is basically Hell but finite, but in the end he would have gone to Heaven at some point.
The reason he’s in Hell is because he gave up and killed himself, which is the worst sin a human can commit. That refusal to repent (no killing yourself doesn’t count), to even try, is what got him the Holy Hotbox.
Absolutemehguy@reddit
Divine Comedy is just fanfiction fam
gazerbeam-98@reddit
I mean it’s all fiction but go off king.
darth_the_IIIx@reddit
No the divine comedy is literal fanfiction.
Like if someone writes a fan fiction of some movie or whatever the movie doesnt also become fan fiction because it’s fictional.
AkOnReddit47@reddit
So still divine intervention then, which still goes against free will and all that
Munnin41@reddit
God and free will don't go together anyway. He's supposed to be omniscient. That means it's all predetermined, since he knows what'll happen
MuttonJohn@reddit
It’s also because he was trying to force Jesus’ hand to be the warrior king who would overthrow the Roman Empire like all the Jews were hoping he would be. In judas’ mind, Jesus was taking too long to become the Messiah and was just stalling by going around and preaching instead of leading a revolution. How better to force the soon to be warrior messiah to start the holy war than to make him get arrested by the people he was supposed overthrow. Obviously nothing bad will happen to him since he has the plot armor of being the prophesied messiah. Judas even bought land around Jerusalem because he was expecting its value to go way up after the revolution.
Unfortunately, Judas and the majority of the Jews did not realize that he was not going to be that type of messiah bringing war destruction, and overthrowing the Roman Empire. Instead Judas played right into fulfilling the actual prophecy. He was quite distraught to the point of killing himself on the very land he bought because he did not expect Jesus to actually be crucified instead of starting a revolution right then in there and kicking the Romans out Jerusalem.
There are a lot of stories in the Bible about how trying to force the prophecy in your own way goes very poorly for you
TomatoSpecialist6879@reddit
"Your father made me betray you to teach you a lesson"
fjhforever@reddit
Jesus would've died either way, with or without Judas.
Unfortunately Judas, in a way, volunteered to be the villain.
DerMetJungen@reddit
Someone has been reading heretical litterature (Gospel of Judas) I see.
huckpos@reddit
So you could say he went even further beyond because of judas ?
Sbotkin@reddit
Killed?
High_Gothic@reddit
And resurrected
schibbsy@reddit
Isn’t this just agnosticism
High_Gothic@reddit
So what?
Foresstov@reddit
The whole point of Judas' character (whether you try to portrat him as the positive character or the negative one) is that he had a choice. There was no destiny, there was no higher force that made him do what he did. He chose to commit the actions he commited even though he didn't have to
Themis3000@reddit
Didn't Jesus predict with absolute confidence that one of his disciples would betray him during the last supper?
Foresstov@reddit
Yes, he did. That doesn't contradict Judas acting out of his free will
I've heard someone compare it to watching a prerecorded match. You know what will happen but that doesn't mean that the players you're watching didn't act on their own
Chimera0205@reddit
Ok but what if someone somehow produced a record of a match that hasn't happened yet and even if you show it to any of the players they cant change what they do in the match when it happens then did they have free will? Jesus knew BEFORE. It's not the same as watching a record of something that happened in the past.
Foresstov@reddit
Jesus knew, but that's all. He didn't force Judas to betray him, he didn't attempt to influence Judas' decision in any way. Judas still chose his own path in accordance to his free will. Jesus knowing about it beforehand doesn't suddenly make Judas' choices less independent
HDYHT11@reddit
Have you ever opened a Bible?
John 13:17
Not only was Judas "possessed", Jesus told him to betray him.
User_identificationZ@reddit
I’ll start with the second point first. Jesus was more or less telling him to stop beating around the bush and get it over with. He didn’t say “Betray me”, he said “me and you both know what’s going to happen so let’s get a move on.”
And whether Judas was possessed or not, he had every opportunity to repent and seek God’s grace, right up until he hanged himself.
HDYHT11@reddit
Even with your interpretation Jesus is approving of Judas' betrayal. He did not bother to kick out Satan from Judas or even tell him not to. He literally tells him to do it.
We do not know because he was possessed.
User_identificationZ@reddit
OK yeah you're kinda right here:
Matthew 27:50 "Jesus said to him 'My friend, do what you are here for"
Mark doesn't have Jesus say anything after Judas' kiss
Luke has him ask "Judas, are you betraying the Son of man with a kiss?", and also mentions Satan entering him. That being said, Jesus asks Judas and not Satan, so it could be either outright possession or just influence.
John has no dialogue
Matthew has Judas feeling remorseful, returning the Silver, and hanging himself, while the other Gospels do not mention him. I think Judas was of his own mind after he had betrayed Jesus and he killed himself, rather than Satan forcing him to. I also must say that my opinion on Judas being possessed comes from a book more or less about Ed Warren, who mentioned that Judas himself possessed someone, implying that he was in league with the demons and thus in Hell.
HDYHT11@reddit
The thought comes from reading the gospel directly in its historical context. The gospels and the old testament have a fair share of possessions to begin with, so it is not that rare. It is
Whoever wrote matthew felt the need to include it because many christians were claiming Judas was "the good guy", such as gnostics and also see the gospel of judas. Additionally note that it would be impossible for a human to know whether Judas was possessed or not so it was either a) completely made up b) divine revelation of the truth
Foresstov@reddit
Have you actually read what you just posted? Where is the author citing Jesus telling Judas to "betray him"? Jesus is telling Judas to continue on with his plans, whatever they may be. He doesn't tell Judas he knows he will betray him. He doesn't order Judas to betray him. At this point Judas may still change his mind, warn Jesus about the incoming Romans or try to ask Jesus for his forgiveness. Yet he chooses to continue with his plan of betrayal
HDYHT11@reddit
We are agreeing that he told Judas to betray him 😂😂😂
Within the very same verse we are told that Satan enters in Judas before all of this.
Read the book
Foresstov@reddit
We're not agreeing on anything. You're trying to put words into Jesus' mouth that he never said. He didn't tell Judas to betray him. He told Judas to continue with his plans. Those are not the same words. Your (made up) version is a direct order which only allows one possibility which is for Judas to betray Jesus. What Jesus said on the other hand is vague and doesn't precisely tell Judas what Jesus expects from him. The difference is enormous
There are two problems with insunating that it Satan that is responsible for Judas betraying Jesus. First of all this verse is a clear reference to John 6:70 - 71 where Jesus directly mentions that one of his disciples is a devil and the biblical author points out that Jesus is talking about Judas. Secondly you can see in the Bible that Satan can't just possess any person he wants to. He has to be let into someone's heart. The biblical author shows us that Judas had been thinking about betraying Jesus for quite some time now and had let Satan take a hold in his heart. Satan entering Judas' heart in this specific moment means that this is the moment where Judas finally decides that he's definitely going to betray Jesus
You're telling me to read the book yet struggle with basic text comprehension
HDYHT11@reddit
You are telling me that Jesus told Judas to "continue on with his plans" and then you tell me that it is a "plan of betrayal"
The only one who did that is whoever wrote the gospel.
If he is already a devil, why does Satan need to enter?
And when that happens Jesus tells him to do it, exactly what I'm telling you
Foresstov@reddit
Not the sharpest tool in the drawer, are you? I'm done with repeating myself and explaining you the basics of the Bible like you're a 9 year old in a Sunday school. I'm sure there are countless books and articles online that explain it all and show why Judas did act out of his free will. You can check them out if you want
HDYHT11@reddit
You simply cannot make a coherent argument. You yourself tell me that Jesus instructs Judas to betray him.
glorious_purpiose@reddit
Sounds like a hot gay orgy.
Chimera0205@reddit
Ok but to just assume that the omnipotent being that needed Judas to do a specific thing and constantly interacted with him for years had no affect or influence on his decision making at any point seems absurd. How can we know Jesus didn't subtly manipulate Judas down the path that leads to man kinds salvation?
Foresstov@reddit
I'm talking about Jesus from a purely biblical perspective. If Jesus did manipulate Judas the biblical authors would let us know about it. Also
Themis3000@reddit
That comparison doesn't really make sense. The big difference is a pre-recorded match already happened
Foresstov@reddit
The time frame doesn't really matter here. We're technically talking about God that is all knowing (according to the Bible). He knows what you will choose to do even before you do it
Themis3000@reddit
The definition of destiny is "the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future."
I don't understand how foretelling that a disciple will betray him isn't destiny being told and coming to fruition
HDYHT11@reddit
It is a prerecorded match in which you create the rules, the rules of physics, the players and that you only play so that the result is exactly what you want.
Not only that you actually enter the match and tell Judas to make a foul.
Munnin41@reddit
No he doesn't have a choice. It literally says so right in the bible. Jesus knew Judas would betray him, which is exactly why he chose him as a disciple
Foresstov@reddit
I explained it in the other comment. Jesus knowing beforehand Judas would betray him doesn't mean that Judas didn't act out of his free will. Humans being able to choose their own destiny is a very important message in the Bible
Munnin41@reddit
You can't have free will with an omniscient god
Rej5@reddit
its heresy to justify judas‘ actions like that.
geoff1036@reddit
Super Saiyan Jesus went crazy in the bible
User_identificationZ@reddit
I don’t think it was so much as “he was destined to betray Jesus no matter what” so much as “Jesus knew with 100% certainty what was about to happen but didn’t do anything so Free Will could run its course.”
Anlijo@reddit
Sounds gnostic… gospel of Judas to be specific
DrProfSrRyan@reddit
Doesn’t that run counter to having free will?
Bit fucked that Judas has to spend eternity in Hell because of divine intervention.
Will512@reddit
There are apocrypha that claim he didn't go to hell basically for that reason
An_Draoidh_Uaine@reddit
Ooo I read the apocrypha just recently, he essentially sits Judas down and tells him he has to betray him, then he goes into a whole fucking thing about this esoteric cosmic order, that God is just one of all these multiversal gods, that Gnosticism is right, and that Judas will ascend to the top level of Heaven with him.
I can see why the Council of Nicea decided not to include that in the bible, because what a left fucking hook that would have been, it essentially changes the whole message of the bible.
LordZedek@reddit
Yes, especially since it was fanfiction, like many of the other books they filtered out.
fieryserpents01@reddit
That sounds really interesting. What are the names of the books you just read?
An_Draoidh_Uaine@reddit
The Gnostic Gospels and the Apocryphal New Testament, specifically that part I described was the Book of Judas.
LordZedek@reddit
So not the Bible?
BannedSvenhoek86@reddit
Fucks sake, even the Bible has multiverse shit now?
Tommy2255@reddit
The bible always had multiple gods sort of baked into the background. There's a reason why the commandment is "thou shalt have no other gods before me", and not "thou shalt have no other gods".
Judaism, as it was practiced during the time when their traditions were being used as the basis for Christianity, was monotheistic. However, it was based on much older polytheistic traditions. You can see in the text where they have those transition points from acknowledging multiple gods but having a special covenant as a culture group to worship only one, into just straight up believing that there is only one God.
onarainyafternoon@reddit
This is fascinating.
ambermage@reddit
🌎👨🚀🔫👩🚀
ambermage@reddit
~~Magnus~~ Judas did nothing wrong.
HDYHT11@reddit
The Bible is full of stories of God forcing (usually bad) things on people. Free will was imported into christianity later on.
Sbotkin@reddit
bro "free will" in bible is literally given the first ever humans, Adam and Eve, at the very beginning of the story. Which ended with their corruption and blah blah, but it's there from the start.
Sbotkin@reddit
Welcome to christianity. You are given "free will", but also God has a plan. You will burn in hell for using that "free will" incorrectly, but also it's all Lord's will so whether you will or will not burn in hell is determined before you are born.
Also you are born with sin and it's your fault.
West-Season-2713@reddit
It’s kind of a debated position. Some people think this, but most people don’t afaik.
bhbhbhhh@reddit
The story “Three Versions of Judas” has some outrageous proposals to try and resolve that.
305StonehillDeadbody@reddit
If I remember right, he was destined to betray Jesus but it was his choice for what to do after. While he felt remorseful and returned the money he was given,he didn't asked for forgiveness from God and turned back to him like others have done and were forgiven.
MrEuphonium@reddit
Which makes no sense by the way, he knew he could ask for forgiveness, and no matter how sorry for yourself you think you are who self inflicts hell?
305StonehillDeadbody@reddit
I think he was too stubborn for that. He felt like if he returns the money he won't have to beg for forgiveness.
StopCollaborate230@reddit
Victim-blaming and defending abusive relationships are key aspects of Christianity and islam.
Letters_to_Dionysus@reddit
the concept of an omnipotent God that knows everything that has ever and will ever happen is also counter to the notion of free will. it's not possible for both of those things to exist in the same universe
Eledridan@reddit
Jesus couldn’t fight fate? God has limits?
HDYHT11@reddit
That's the fate Jesus wanted, Judas was following God's desires.
galacticdude7@reddit
theologically speaking Jesus could have fought his fate of being executed, but didn't because he knew his death would bring about the salvation of mankind.
The movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" does some exploration into what Jesus's life might have been if he had fought his fate.
TheIronGnat@reddit
And yet, Dante had him suffering in one of the worst parts of Hell. Whole thing makes no sense.
Real-Ad-1728@reddit
So as usual, it’s really all God’s fault.
Matikso@reddit
Itachi of the lambs
mtilleymcfly@reddit
Canon event, used in it's original contexts lol
Longjumping_Ad7328@reddit
Lmfao the mental gymnastics
cheeseybees@reddit
I always thought that
Like, maybe beforehand Jesus is all going "it's part of the plan, it's ordained! All been worked out ahead, and this is the way it's gotta be"
And Judas is there thinking "he's the son of God right? And this is all part of the plan, right? He'll be fiiiiiiine!....right?" And then the fucker goes and gets chosen for death over Barabas, and is crucified. Taking all the sins of man with him... Except for those of Judas apparently!
Nand-Monad-Nor@reddit
Many issues emerge when you consider free-will, destiny, determinism, and God's knowledge and Capabilities. There is what I believe the "virgin" response which is to suggest ignorance of God's divinity and all it entails. The more "Chad" response that I prefer a person subscribe to is to simply point to God's divinity as an absolute. Does God condemn people to hell for all eternity? Yes, because he is God and God does as God does. Is it fair, just, or good to condemn souls to hell? Who cares God is. Is there any reason beyond his Divinity, No, God is. All attributes or descriptions of God are limited, when the truest definition is the simplest, God is.
All issues are flattened if you uphold Beinghood without need for description. Unfortunately for humans who presuppose certain assumptions, namely that communication need be purposeful and intelligible, these line of reasoning is insufficient.
But really most things are consequence of a dissimilarity, if one concludes, one concludes, whereas those lacking will not conclude.
Due_Capital_3507@reddit
Devine sounds like someone from RuPauls Drag Race
Hood_Harmacist@reddit
that's how it was explained to me
DoctorPerverto@reddit
I've only got cursory knowledge on the subject, but if we're gonna get into a serious discussion or if anybody feels curious, what Judas did (or did not) depends on the version of the story you're reading, and that generally degenerated in time.
If we consider the apocriphal, Judas's gospel (not written by him) had Jesus request Judas to "betray" him. This matches the different theology presented in Judas's gospel, which was gnostic (meaning we're trapped in a physical "false" plane created by an evil false god, the Demiurge), and therefore exonerates Judas from doing wrong, as it was Jesus's plan to be freed from the mortal plane. This is an entirely different Jesus altogether.
If we move on to the approved classics, if I recall correctly Mark came first and in his account, Judas's betrayal was implied to be within God's plan, for the sacrifice for our sins was necessary. This resonated with Judas's gospel, but made no mention on the aforementioned gnostic theology. God was one good and loving and decided to sacrifice himself to atone for our sins, past and future. I don't think Judas was said to be a particularly bad person in this version.
Then you get to Matthew, which presents Judas as a common thief before meeting Jesus (so greed and low moral fiber were to be expected), and then there's Luke, who pretty much says Judas is basically an agent for the Devil and evil.
I haven't researched this but it is my personal theory that the canonized versions are increasingly critical of Judas's figure to ensure the diverging gnostic thesis as presented in his gospel (which supposedly emerged a bit later) was discarded. This was all in theory within the first 100 years after Jesus, so christianity was still trying to come together and I assume that an opposing view on cosmology was a problem.
lazydictionary@reddit
Would never expect a good discussion about gnosticism in a sub like this.
l3etelgeuse@reddit
My denomination pittied Judas instead of judging or despising him. He was a cautionary tale that anyone, even someone standing next to the divine, could be tricked into doing something evil for the stupidest of reasons.
Blashmir@reddit
I always understood was that Judas fully believed Jesus was the messiah but the Jewish Theology version where he was a conqueror who would come and overthrow the roman rule and that by betraying him would force his hand to start the inevitable violent overthrow.
smallneedle@reddit
Technically all 12 disciples either thought of him as Jewsish Theology version or just someone holy (some of them probably never received education as fishermen), that's why all of the panicked and don't have the idea that Jesus will come back to life few days later
mc711@reddit
if we just talk about choice or fate, we can correlate with peter's denial of jesus before dawn. jesus knew, and peter denied til the last moments, but it still happened regardless.
if we take in regard to judas, jesus knew, and judas did what he would do. even at the last supper, "one will betray me" was a general accusation. it was just foretold in all matters because it was meant for jesus to complete his life.
if we consider what if it wasn't judas or someone else, well does it matter? jesus would know the outcome regardless.
kobriks@reddit
The whole existence of Judas is questionable. Most likely, they made him up to make Jesus appear less lame. Jesus got pissed after John the Baptist got offed, stirred up some ruccus in the temple, and got caught and owned. That doesn't make a very good story, though.
TraumaPerformer@reddit
Betrayed a godmode wizard who could literally spawn food, all for the modern equivalent of £30.
sarattenasai@reddit
It was like 8000$ back then. 4 months of work. Still a dumb play, Jesus could have multiplied the coins like he did with bread, acting like a central bank and making inflation soar due to the ways banks work, specifically the rules about coin minting. You can easily see what would have happened by searching "Jesus Judas Rule 34 Inflation".
BlueLaserCommander@reddit
I fucking love this new joke trend. I understand it's not totally new, but I'm seeing it more & more lately. It's clever.
UregMazino@reddit
Are you a satanist?
Qulpaksad@reddit
No, he's just a modern central banker
UregMazino@reddit
There's a difference?
sarattenasai@reddit
Satan probably lends money at a lower interest rate and with better payment plans.
Fastestergos@reddit
Playing Devil's Advocate here, but a reason banks make those loans to people they know can't pay them back is because if they didn't, they'd be potentially looking at a massive Civil Rights lawsuit, e.g. underwriting all those subprime mortgages which were disproportionately and knowingly made by Fannie Mae to Black homebuyers, which would cost them hundreds of millions of dollars if they won. So they make these loans knowing they're going to take a loss, and they have to recoup as much of it as possible, unless they want to drag the person that they have made an unpayable loan to (again, they could very easily be sued into the next decade for racial discrimination if they didn't) to bankruptcy court, and that could drag on for years. Tl;dr Banks aren't inherently the Devil and homebuyers, particularly first-time homebuyers who aren't of means are caught in a four-way fight between mortgage brokers, banks, Congress, and the courts.
_bassGod@reddit
I cannot stand idly by and let you slander the good name of satanism like this.
imbogey@reddit
Bankers have different religion...
Pyrimo@reddit
Well, the satanist has better morals…
Qulpaksad@reddit
Not that much tbh
Ruby2312@reddit
Yes, santanist still have souls
901_vols@reddit
If this sub understood this joke you'd be downvoted lmao, I love it. This isn't /r/4chan
GuyOfNugget@reddit
4chan when Jews haven't been denigrated for 0.5627 seconds:
901_vols@reddit
Too long tbh
GuyOfNugget@reddit
I fixed it.
HarambeamsOfSteel@reddit
Can you explain for me? I thought it was just the typical haha Rule 34 bait.
901_vols@reddit
Not him, the central banker joke
Neil_Ribsy@reddit
So, yes.
sarattenasai@reddit
I'm actually agnostic. I firmly believe that we cannot confirm or deny the existance of a God through our limited means.
angelis0236@reddit
I'm not agnostic, I'm atheist but willing to except evidence otherwise. I'm going to need to be on my end just the same as if you told me you had an invisible dragon in the garage.
"Now what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all?" - Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark.
EtteRavan@reddit
I am not atheist, I am a firm believer that there is a china teapot revolving in an elliptical orbit between the Earth and Mars.
toyskater2@reddit
Finally someone gets it
sarattenasai@reddit
It's a good position. I love the position. It is however an agnostic position. There might be a dragon, but it is irrelevant to our current predicament because it is outside of our sensible experience, so we might as well act as if there is no dragon.
It would be dumb to avoid going to the garage because of the dragon, but it would be as dumb as going to the garage for no reason because there is no dragon. It doesn't go and try to disprove the existence of the dragon, because that's a fool's errand.
I do engage in the flipside. It is kind of useful to act as if someone (call it God, Karma, Susan from the internet crime division (hi Susan)) was watching me, if not for the whole experience of myself, for the times when I am not acting as if I was watching myself.
angelis0236@reddit
It's dumb to give credence to the idea that there might be a dragon at all is my point, and if you read the book it's Sagan's point as well.
sarattenasai@reddit
Precisely! Arguing about the literal, objective existence of the unfalsifiable dragon is a moot and pointless intellectual exercise. We should not base our empirical view of the world on it. However, the idea still has its uses. Psychologically at least. Isn't the hypothetical dragon a tool we are using right now?
Even the religious texts that we presume are fake and for all we care they can be, if taken a look through historical analysis glasses, we can understand more about the way our ancestors thought and we can draw conclusions and implications about that.
The islamic custom of having a clean hand to cook with and a dirty hand for hygiene is an example of that. We can find that it is a good way to reduce harmful microbe spread. The same for the meat that can be eaten, because pork has a lot of parasites... Also to not eat animals that did not die by ritual death (because if they died "naturally" something killed them, and might still be in their bodies and cause harm to the person that eats it).
We should also be careful not to fall into the pit of "well if my holy book says that it must be for a good reason" and analyze what is the reason behind every word and how it applies to us.
angelis0236@reddit
I'm saying I need not analyze the words of a person who wants me to believe in the dragon.
posting_drunk_naked@reddit
Do you by any chance live in a very religious area? I remember saying I was agnostic in an attempt to find common ground with those who believe without evidence and not calling their insanity what it really is by saying I'm atheist.
It doesn't work, you can't use logic with the illogical. Save your time and just say you're an atheist. Until there's evidence of magic in observable reality, you and me are in the same boat.
sarattenasai@reddit
Oh, no, I am really agnostic. I'm not an atheist though I respect those who are the same as I respect the religious people.
I do not, however, condone using religion to force how others act, nor do I believe that religion (any) or atheism should be the main force driving your actions.
If there is a god (we can't know) how can we know which one it is (do we eat meat on a Friday or not?) and if we are doing the correct thing? We also shouldn't act like there is no superior driving universal force (we also can't know) and thus allow ourselves to be completely selfish, because that would mean that in the prisoner dilemma, we all would confess and thus we would all lose.
Fatassgecko@reddit
Hmm. Have you explored Hinduism or Buddhism? They seem to be more neutral with entity created with symbolism to represent certain idea.
Personally only find it kinda interesting, not Buddhist or Hinduism either
ambermage@reddit
Why should someone explore Hinduism or Buddhism?
What is the purpose of suggesting that someone pursue any theology?
Icefox119@reddit
Because despite some of its mysticism, it's more of a philosophy than a religion
ambermage@reddit
So more of a "structure of thought process" instead of a "Here's a deity and do what they say?"
Fatassgecko@reddit
The comment reminded me of it that's all.
wasnt religious my self either, but doesn't mean it gonna stop me from exploring random topic. I just found an orangutan boxing video too, had high expectations, was disappointed.
ambermage@reddit
Like, organized boxing, with a ring and a referee?
Or just playing with a box?
Sounds like it falls between cute <-> cool.
sarattenasai@reddit
I have some knowledge of Buddhism and Hinduism, but I go by my own philosophy.
GuyDudeThing69@reddit
The label agnostic is a little misused generally, you can either believe in god (theism) or not believe in god (atheism), however, the term agnostic refers to the amount of knowledge or certainty that you have, they're used in conjunction
e.g. Agnostic Atheist: Doesn't believe in a god, but doesn't know for sure if it exists
Gnostic Atheist: Doesn't believe in a god and claims that none exist
Agnostic Theist: Believes in a god, but doesn't know for sure if it exists
Gnostic Theist: Believes in a god and claims that it (or they) do exist
Njorord@reddit
I don't think that's necessarily the case for every agnostic. I'm more atheistic now as my definitions of the word have changed, but my reasoning was that both theism and atheism are affirmations, and as such, agnosticism is simply saying "we do not know".
I stopped calling myself agnostic because atheism has been commonly defined as simply the lack of belief, not necessarily an affirmation that there are no gods, so I saw no functional difference between the agnosticism I held and atheism. But some people might still have old ideas and definitions.
posting_drunk_naked@reddit
That's fair. Having grown up in the Bible Belt I'm pretty sour on religion as a whole and definitely biased.
Njorord@reddit
Which is valid. I'm also sour on religion as I grew up very religious like you. Nowadays, I've grown to be neutral about it since I don't tend to engage or surround myself with very religious folk, but I do sometimes feel the old bitterness and anger when I come across one of the delusional nutjobs.
shorse_hit@reddit
Well, if you don't specifically believe a god exists, you're an atheist. Agnostic is just an additional descriptor on top of that.
sarattenasai@reddit
I would not go as far as to say that. I hold the belief that god might exist or might not exist. My thoughts on that area are not black and white. When you throw a coin and don't reveal the result yet, there might be heads or tails inside. You hold no knowledge of there being tails or heads on your hand. How can you possibly decide if one is true or false? That is not the same as actually denying the tails or affirming it's tails.
shorse_hit@reddit
You didn't understand my point. Atheism isn't necessarily the belief that there is no god. It can also just be the lack of a belief in god.
If you say god might or might not exist, that is a lack of belief.
sarattenasai@reddit
While on principle that is true in some sense, on the other hand, I believe god exists, just the same as I believe god doesn't exist. Am I an atheist theist, a theist atheist, or some third, other thing? The proposition of god existing or not is already flawed. What exactly and precisely is this god thing we are talking about? Are we talking about a conscious decision maker that bends the rules of the universe at his will? Are we talking about a karmic order where we reincarnate based on our flawed personalities and mistakes? Is this god the subatomic distance between particles, the quantum entanglement, the chemical reactions in our brain? Is god the will of the heavens that sends a lightning strike whenever a cultivator is reaching nascent soul?
Most importantly, what does this all mean and where will it take us? I find the question to be unrelated to what we can experience. The question is mostly meaningless. We haven't even defined what god is, not even the theologists know, nor can they know. It's like being at the soccer field and asking without outside knowledge if cars exist. What is a car? There is no experience of a car, there is nothing about cars in the soccer manual.
shorse_hit@reddit
You are an agnostic atheist.
sarattenasai@reddit
I am arguing for the sake of arguing over terminology like a pedantic dumb idiot but please bear with me, I have Aspergers disease and I find this incredibly fun. What do you mean by god, exactly? On the level of logic, not your own definition of what a god is. How can you link the concept of god (or more egregiously, a god), which exists outside of the sensible experience, with us, who can only experience the sensible?
shorse_hit@reddit
No, I don't feel like engaging in that right now. I made the point I wanted to make. What you're asking is an entirely different discussion that I'm not interested in having.
Prism_Riot42@reddit
I can, I’m in gods walls
FatGuyANALLIttlecoat@reddit
Yaldabaoth made me do it
sumr4ndo@reddit
I mean, he did give the gift of knowledge there
omegafivethreefive@reddit
Bruh
Benaholicguy@reddit
I make $1,600 a month working two jobs. Recent college grad from U.S. with two degrees.
Thatdoodky1e@reddit
He must be a europoor
Munnin41@reddit
At least we won't go broke over a stubbed toe
Scientia_et_Fidem@reddit
Neither will Americans. Even taking into account our medical and insurance costs we have more disposable income then Europeans. Our mean and median income vs cost of living are just that much higher then yours.
Munnin41@reddit
Medical debt is the number one cause of personal bankruptcy in the US dumbass
Scientia_et_Fidem@reddit
The percentage of American who have ever declared bankruptcy in their lifetime is ~0.15%.
Even if 100% of those were caused by medical dept (not true obviously) it would still affect only a small fraction of 1 percent of Americans.
I’ll take my chances with the near guaranteed higher pay and lower cost if living for the same job compared to Europeans in exchange for a less then 0.2 percentage chance of declaring bankruptcy due to medical bills. But you do you, dumbass.
Themustanggang@reddit
0.15% of Americans have declared bankruptcy
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Where did you get that statistic cause from what I found on multiple sources it’s 14% of US adults have filed for bankruptcy, and only 13% of bankruptcies filed were from business. To add to that 4.4 % were chapter 11 for personal, meaning the VAST majority of bankruptcies in the US are personal and chapter 7 (failure to repay debts).
The vast majority of economists agree it will continue to be 10% of adult Americans will file for bankruptcy in their lifetime.
And get this. 66% of all bankruptcies in the US were caused by what? MEDICAL DEBT.
Bro your numbers are either completely made up or given to you by Trump himself. Medical debt in the USA has a 6.5% to completely ruin your life.
Scientia_et_Fidem@reddit
Here are the actual stats. I was slightly off, it is now 0.12% of Americans, not 0.15%. https://finmasters.com/personal-bankruptcy-statistics/#gref
I assume the 14% you got is from these reports since your other numbers also match up with it. https://www.debt.org/bankruptcy/statistics/
But if you try really hard to actually read it properly, you'll see it says bankruptcy filling increased by 14% during 2024 compared to 2023, not that 14% of US citizens filed. So what it is actually saying is the extremely small percentage of bankruptcy filing was multiplied by 1.14 to get a still extremely small percentage.
But hey don't worry buddy, I'm sure if you practice, you'll eventually achieve the literacy level of a 5th grader so you can read statistics properly. Keep trying, I'm rooting for you!
mandrewsf@reddit
You know we're winning when we're creating this much butthurt among the peasants
Munnin41@reddit
I'll take safety and better living conditions over some cash.
Also median income is just 20% lower while CLI is 35% lower.
Themustanggang@reddit
Yeah ignore that guy he has the statistics completely wrong. It’s 14% of adult Americans who file for bankruptcy and 66% of that is due to medical debt.
Trust me bro you’re far bettter off with universal health care.
sarattenasai@reddit
I am indeed europoor. And that is actually DOUBLE my monthly earnings after tax on a 9 to 7 (with 2h break) job tbh.
NCD_Lardum_AS@reddit
Eastern European moment.
sarattenasai@reddit
Southern European more like... But yeah northern EU isn't like this.
powy_glazer@reddit
7x of mine lol
Despite that, the cost of living is higher than in the EU and the US
splittingheirs@reddit
I wouldn't worry too much, the yankwank will wake up in a hospital bed one day and immediately ask the the nurse for a morphine hotshot so they don't bankrupt their family.
mandrewsf@reddit
Jesus christ. Thats the saddest thing I read today.
sarattenasai@reddit
What do the lowest paid laborers make a month? like receptionists, construction assistant, etc
Sbotkin@reddit
Where? Moscow, Dublin, Madrid, Wuhan?
sarattenasai@reddit
Uhhh yeah. About a dog's weight. Every person makes different income, even. It was silly of me.
Responsible_Father@reddit
are you 13 years old
sarattenasai@reddit
I do not live on the US. I don't know US salaries. It depends on where you live and stuff but generally I assumed 2k a month, 24k a year, for the lowest paid. Sounded reasonable in my head. According to Deepseek federal minimum is 7,5$ hourly. Some farmer in rural Arkansas makes that for sure.
Responsible_Father@reddit
receptionists, construction assistants, and farmers are far from the lowest paid workers
farmers actually average $90,000/yr, more than double the salary of someone working as a cashier or something
omegafivethreefive@reddit
Even Judas wouldn't be that much of a bitch
Maz2742@reddit
All I found when I searched that was Dobson started a religious arc. You sure that's the right term?
NeitherBirthday@reddit
HyperionPhalanx@reddit
BEGONE FOUL DEMON
I WILL ALLOW YOU TO BEWITCH MY MIND!
TraumaPerformer@reddit
>"Jesus Judas Rule 34 Inflation".
I'm from the UK. It's saying I need a 'Wanking Permit' to access the search results. Strange...
internetlad@reddit
We're playing checkers and you're playing 4D dejarik
canigetawoop_woop@reddit
We're playing checkers and this dude is face down in 3 feet of mud lingering his own asshole
internetlad@reddit
Lingering lol
Munnin41@reddit
4 months? Nah. A denarius was roughly a day's labour.
sarattenasai@reddit
30 silver coins were 120 denarius weren't they? From chat gpt "the original "30 pieces of silver" from the Bible were Tyrian shekels (worth 4 denarii each), not denarii themselves."
GeneralGerbilovsky@reddit
And he didn’t? What kind of 🧃 was he?
helved@reddit
Are you saying Judas was selfless in trying to stop the first Jewish fella from controlling the banks/the world?!
Responsible_Jury_415@reddit
It wasn’t about the money for Judas it was fear and worry that Jesus was being too extra doing too much and being too open about his views. Judas wanted him to Dial it down because he figured if they kept it low key they would get more Followers and have a stronger message. He was like ok your the son of god but can you not like say it so much?
leaderofstars@reddit
All I got was badly cropped stick figure porn you got anything else
Cowslayer369@reddit
It was quite a bit more, but he also didn't even get to use it because he killed himself afterwards
_TheAfroNinja_@reddit
Money is one hell of a drug.
Ashbeau94@reddit
It's in the name, Jewdas
Mephil_@reddit
Knows a guy is totally faking it due to being in his inner circle
Somehow is the only one smart enough to see through it
Betray the charlatan
They say everybody will curse me for rest of history
Nah humans can't be this gullible
BattleReadyZim@reddit
I remember being told one idea, which was that Judas wanted to push Jesus into leading the Israelites to completely stomping the Romans with Jesus' messiah powers. Jesus was being too peace and love, so Judas figured he could force Jesus's hand by giving him no alternative.
But then Jesus was like Psych, still not leading an army, and fucking dies.
Lonely-Fruit-6001@reddit
What is the name of this painting ?
The_All_Knowing_Derp@reddit
It was a horrible decision in any regard but I always took it as him being lead to do so by god himself, or god allowing him to be tempted rather than protect against it, since Judas needed to betray Jesus in order for him to be crucified and everyone's sins to be cleared
idk it's been a really long time since I last went through the bible but off the top of my head that's what always made sense to me when I was kid
DankElderberries420@reddit
Just a bad troll, not much to do a million years ago
prespyk@reddit
I believe in Christ's miracles and I've betrayed Him for much less than thirty pieces of silver
barryhakker@reddit
Through the sin of letting men blow their loads in your mouth in a parking lot bathroom, presumably?
OuthouseEZ@reddit
Kinda weird thats where your mind went. Is there something you arent telling us?
barryhakker@reddit
I guess I’m just jealous
thehigheststrange@reddit
Hey let's say he's glad ,he got his name redacted from the Epstein files.
ReturnRadio@reddit
Yeah so what
barryhakker@reddit
Nothing just wanted to complement him on time well spent
prespyk@reddit
Of course not. It happens at mine or theirs, obviously
Empty_Tree@reddit
Amen broski
Seymour_Flex@reddit
Amen to that brother
ABouzenad@reddit
Based? On Reddit?
Dale_Wardark@reddit
Man, that just hit me like a ton of bricks. Thank you for the perspective brother.
Resident-Martian@reddit
Amen, Jesus Christ Son of the living God have mercy on me, a sinner 🙏
Positive_Material839@reddit
I mean even the Egyptians had sorcerers that was a whole thing in the bible with moses and the staff turning into a bigger snake and eating the other snake they made. Bible had a lot of weird things in it that get over looked
Qloudy_sky@reddit
The same reason many other Jews heard and saw of Jesus miracles and still wanted to execute him just because he wasn't the Messiahs they hoped he was
You can do anything and still people will irrationally hate/abandoned you. They aren't scared of their wellbeing
HDYHT11@reddit
There are exactly 0 accounts of the miracles outside of the bible. Do you know in the gospel of Matthew when there is an earthquake and suddenly thousands of people raise from the death? No mention either, not even in the other gospels.
Qloudy_sky@reddit
I'm not talking about if the miracles are real I'm talking in the setting of the Bible and the how the Jews in the Bible acted
HDYHT11@reddit
Why are you presenting an imaginary situation as real?
Qloudy_sky@reddit
Because if we talk about the Bible we need to take the things written in there as true, instead we can just forget about any discussion about the Bible and discuss about the religion itself and how it's viable.
But a Theist-Atheist discussion was not the original topic here or am I wrong?
HDYHT11@reddit
No?? You are drawing conclusions from false premises. You cannot say that the jews ignored miracles if you cannot prove that the miracles happened in the first place. You are making up a scenario to draw the conclusions you want.
Christianity is not the only religion, in Judaism Jesus was a nobody because he did not perform miracles.
Qloudy_sky@reddit
Didn't this discussion start with a christian perspective? Why even talk about Judas or any events in the Bible if everthing didn't happen. The "not believing in miracles Jews" also aren't existing if the Bible isn't taken as truth and the discussion has nothing to discuss
Oh yes I forgot we spoke about the holy script of the Jews and the writings of confucius in which this events and Judas betrayal is written. Sorry for arguing only in a christian narrative how foolish of me
HDYHT11@reddit
Thing is you are not even making the right assumptions:
The christian perspective is that judas was possessed by Satan, not what you mentioned.
As for the jews, Jesus equated himself with god, hence blasphemy, john 5:16-18
All four of the gospels talked about how he was charged for blasphemy in the sanhedrin, not being a "different kind of messiah"
Qloudy_sky@reddit
Yes in one gospel other times it's just mentioned he betrays him but without mentioning his true motivation.
I'm not talking about on what he was charged for but on why the Jews turned on him and "not being the Messiahs he was thought to be" is the reason.
Literally hours ago before his arrest he was praised as a King in Jerusalem, the priest couldn't even arrest him for some time as they wanted because they were scared of the people.
They Jews turned on him after being captured because they realized that a Messiahs they hoped him to be wouldn't himself let be so degraded.
Your point makes no sense he never said something new which caused the (non priest) jews to think of him as a blasphemer suddenly instead of before, so how can this be the reason they turned on him?
HDYHT11@reddit
Because as I have told you, the story does not make sense as it makes invalid assumptions.
So which one is correct?
How? Why is that very key detail ommited? How did everyone realize at the same time? How do you know that is the reason?
Qloudy_sky@reddit
Can't say, I take everthing in the Bible for true or for wrong, there can't be the truth filtered out. I was stating Judas possible motivation because we have nothing else to go by beside Stan's possession which also can or can't be taken literally.
I don't particularly know the reason, but it's most plausible Argument if we take the mindset of the people in that current time into account and the old testament (about which I can't say much currently)
They probably realized it after the roman soldiers mocked Jesus instead of freeing Jews from roman oppression.
Cyhawk@reddit
Additionally, Matthew was written after the other Gospels and its believe the miracles were added to give credence to Jesus being divine instead of just a Prophet. You would think the letters and subsequent apocrypha letters/books would make mention of miracles in some regard either supporting or adding to other arguments.
NorthDakota@reddit
You snatched a downvote from someone but analyzing the texts from an objective historical perspective is probably a good idea here. Jesus probably existed for real, Judas or some analogue of him probably existed, Jesus' miracles were kind of obviously not really miracles because miracles don't actually occur, and so it makes more sense for someone to betray him for money.
I might catch some downvotes for saying miracles don't occur or that Jesus didn't do them. I'm not taking a strong stance, maybe jesus is god and all the stuff in the bible really did occur, I don't know. What I can say is that I don't really have evidence of that besides the bible and I don't see miracles occuring today, and so I kinda believe they didn't happen in the past either.
HDYHT11@reddit
Even if we assume they happened we simply have no evidence for them. We have more evidence for the existance of roman gods than for Jesus' miracles.
NorthDakota@reddit
Well it's false to say that we have no evidence of them, there is at least some evidence depending on your definition, whether you think that's good or bad evidence for the case that's up to you. There are several books about it and there is a social movement surrounding Jesus so that's something. I personally don't think it's good evidence, since every religion and then some claim to have miracles, and there are plenty of other books claiming someone else is god, but yeah.
esssssto@reddit
I think that's more It. Judas was somewhat jaleous of Jesus, and is also many times portrayed as selfish. So the fact that Jesus didn't want a life of luxury for him or his followers pissed him off.
Qloudy_sky@reddit
Sorry but not much about judas is stated in the Bible. For instance, it is never mentioned that he was jealous of Jesus, not once. Whats mentioned is that he is selfish yes but wouldn't call it "many" times. It's mentioned that he takes part of their money for himself (sign of his selfishness) and in each gospel it's repeated for a total of four times that he betrayed Jesus for money (also selfish) but that it. Thats only two unique scenarios of his selfishness, which is still enough to make your statement true that he is selfish. I just wanted to correct the exaggerated parts and the wrongly attribute of him being jealous.
The last part is just speculation and interpretations of his character, which can be done but it's better to stay mostly with the words of the Bible.
esssssto@reddit
I'm not talking about the Bible but popular culture, that's why i said portrayal. Since in Spain Semana Santa is very important, we have a lot of representations of the events leading up to the crucifixión and resurrection.
Munnin41@reddit
Well, if you check the prophecies he can't be the Messiah, since that's supposed to be a descendant of David. Joseph's lineage traces back to David, Mary's doesn't*. So he can't be the son of god if he's the messiah.
*Yes people claim that Luke traces her lineage but that's extremely unclear and her being related to a Levite makes it even more unreliable
Qloudy_sky@reddit
He checks every box of being the Messiahs but not being the son of David is the only dealbreaker...
Also if the Jews didn't believe he was the son of God then only Joseph would've been the father and Jesus would be the son of David in their eyes
retsoPtiH@reddit
WHY HIMST NOSE SO SMALL??? 😤
on the T with the fucker
kurtcanine@reddit
He was possessed by Satan IIRC
leaderofstars@reddit
Why would Satan want more people to go to heaven? The whole point of Jesus died on the cross was so he could descend to hell and throw open the gates
NineThreeFour1@reddit
Why would Satan want more people in hell? He isn't the administrator, he is also being tortured like everyone else down there.
leaderofstars@reddit
Lucifer is the one being endlessly tortured in hell. Satan is God's Devil's Advocate who is the only one allowed to argue against him on matters
NineThreeFour1@reddit
There is only one Devil and only one God in the Bible. Lucifer is simply a different name for The Satan, same as Diablos, Beelzebub, Baal, etc.
In early books, the term "satan" may refer to any human adversaries, but later it mostly refers to a supernatural entity. With a definitive article, "The Satan" refers to the one devil and not the concept of satan.
leaderofstars@reddit
Lucifer is the morning star who rebelled against God. Satan is the opposer who argues with God on every decision. Diablos is the Spanish word for devil or demon. Beelzebub is a different entity known as the Lord of flies. And baal refers to another religion's God, the carthaginians. ( the carthaginians would sacrifice their children to baal for Good Harvests)
NineThreeFour1@reddit
Just read the Wikipedia article on Satan please. It clearly says they all refer to the same thing.
Yes, Baal is technically a different reglion's God. But it's not The God, hence it must be the devil instead according to religious logic.
"Diabolos" is Greek, which, as you may know, is one of the languages in which the scripture was translated early on.
leaderofstars@reddit
Done reading that Wikipedia article. Satan is not equivalent with Lucifer until more recently. In fact Lucifer appears to be a new testament creation in order to justify the Doomsday Cult's beliefs.
That thing with baal is one hell of a mental leap.
And what Hebrew word was diabolos translated from?
NineThreeFour1@reddit
So is religion TBF.
It has a similar meaning in Greek but I don't know which term is was translated from:
leaderofstars@reddit
Cool Satan when translated from Hebrew to English has a meaning called The Accuser
HDYHT11@reddit
Source?
leaderofstars@reddit
Not unless you want to read the ancient Hebrew Old Testament text. In which Satan is viewed as The Devil's Advocate who constantly argues against God's decisions and is given authority to tempt Mortals to sin
HDYHT11@reddit
Well, if you wanna do old testament.
This is patently false, Abraham, Moses, Job, Habakkuk and others argued with God.
And Satan only argues with God in the book of job.
"Devil's Advocate" has nothing to do with the old testament.
leaderofstars@reddit
You're right the Devil's Advocate has nothing to do with the Old Testament but that's just because it's a modern interpretation of his actual job. The name Satan means opposer in the old Hebrew therefore Satan's job is the argue with with God. God just allowed those other people to argue with him to humor them.
HDYHT11@reddit
So satan is not the only one allowed to argue with god?
leaderofstars@reddit
Mostly his job is to argue the other side's point. For example if everyone, including God, agrees that one action is the correct way to do something his job is to argue the exact opposite.
305StonehillDeadbody@reddit
He was a dummy
leaderofstars@reddit
Don't speak ill of Jesus like that
305StonehillDeadbody@reddit
I meant satan. He was so stupid and tried numerous times to ragebait Jesus but each time Jesus mogged him and showed him how much of a dummy satan is.
leaderofstars@reddit
Isn't Satan literally The Devil's Advocate on the side of God? The Bible does make a distinction between Lucifer and Satan being separate entities. Couldn't be that Satan on orders of God was sent down to test Jesus.
305StonehillDeadbody@reddit
I don't know about Satan and Lucifer being different people,I only remember what I learned from grandma and fourth grade but isn't Jesus God as well? Maybe it's like that for Satan as well. Like he was Lucifer when he was in the heavens, then after his downfall he separated himself from former self so much he became someone else.
leaderofstars@reddit
No no no see Lucifer was the angel that rebelled against God while Satan was God's devil advocate who would always advocate for the other side.
305StonehillDeadbody@reddit
Oh didn't know that
luubi1945@reddit
The bible doesn't make a distinction for Lucifer and Satan, but it doesn't make a notion that they're the same entities either. The "Devil" could also be something else entirely. And yes, Jesus is God personified.
There are multiple interpretations to Lucifer and Satan, and the Devil. Satan is most often thought to be the Devil, but Lucifer isn't always considered to be a name of Satan. Modern popular fiction makes them all the same entity, which is also an interpretation of the bible's text, not necessarily false.
kurtcanine@reddit
Fuck if I know but it says Satan entered Judas sometime around the last supper.
leaderofstars@reddit
Oh so God's Devil's Advocate entered Judas to make him fulfill the prophecy
Munnin41@reddit
Satan can't possess people. The common translation to English is "one of you is a devil". If you look at the greek, it's more along the lines of "one of you is allied with the devil/evil/the adversary"
HDYHT11@reddit
John 13:27
Munnin41@reddit
Hmm if only the bible spoke in metaphor. Too bad it never does
HDYHT11@reddit
There are tens of examples of people possessed by demons in the new testament. Many of which speak directly to Jesus. Are those also metaphores? The guy possessed by Legion was also a metaphore?
Munnin41@reddit
Pretty sure the devil is very explicitly not a demon
HDYHT11@reddit
Matthew 12:24-26 is pretty clear that Satan can possess people. Said by Jesus himself.
Why do you say that Satan possessing Judas is a metaphor but every other possession isn't?
Munnin41@reddit
It doesn't say that?
HDYHT11@reddit
>Jesus stops a possession
>Pharisees say that Jesus only does that by the power of the prince of demons (satan a.k.a Beelzebub)
>Jesus says that Satan does not drive out Satan.
So Jesus implies that Satan can and does possess people and we have other bible verses with exactly that.
kurtcanine@reddit
The line that Satan entered into Judas isn’t from Jesus, it’s just narrated by the author. Jesus calling his betrayer out is a separate reference to Satan.
Captaincorect@reddit
With Christ it's not a knowledge problem, it's a heart problem.
Judes didn't want God or things of God, his heart was full of other desires
ThatLineOfTriplets@reddit
Why are you acting like your head cannon is canon
Rude-Bet5659@reddit
So, we could have a real Warhammer 40k?
1960somethingbatman@reddit
I mean, maybe Judas didn't think it would actually kill Jesus? Maybe he thought it was a smart way to make some extra coin on the side? He did try to buy him back after he saw that Jesus was, in fact, letting himself be killed. And when he was told no, Judas threw the silver on the ground and went and hung himself. To me anyway, that sounds like someone who didn't actually want Jesus dead.
AssassinOfFate@reddit
I think he had no choice, that’s just how things were supposed to go.
creamymoe@reddit
That’s an interesting nose and forehead the artist has chosen for Judas
No_General_2155@reddit
I'm no infidel but 20 pieces of silver is 20 pieces of silver.
ConscientiousPath@reddit
Do the math for inflation. 30 shekels of silver in 29 A.D is a lot of money today.
Cyhawk@reddit
Not that much. The point of 30 shekels was to point out how cheaply Judas betrayed Jesus.
Going off silver conversion rates, 30 Shekels is roughly equal to 108 Denarii. The salary for a Roman Legion (est 13BC by Augustus) was 225 Denarii before bonuses/deductions. We do have some accounts that an average frontier border post Legionary took home about 150~ Denarii per year after deductions. Legionaries were paid well but not extravagantly (ignoring bonuses), lets put it around the buying power of 60-80k/year USD today (ok 10 years ago since the economy is currently fucked) which is in line with historic sources.
This means Judas betrayed Jesus for about 20-30k USD. Its a lot, but not a lot. Ultimately no matter what your station in life is, 20k USD is nothing. Just enough to fix current issues, but not enough to buy your way out of your situation and forget it ever happened. Judas killed the son of God for a bit of temporary happiness.
ConscientiousPath@reddit
rofl ok boomer
Lolfindkeinnamen@reddit
Judas was part of the inner circle so IF he knew jesus was a fraud, his betrayal would make sense...
Tommy2255@reddit
fretsofgenius@reddit
True Resurrection is a 9th level spell.
Tommy2255@reddit
Raise Dead is 5th level. Why on earth would you jump straight to True Resurrection?
Battleman69@reddit
What does Gandalf have to do with this?
Jmgler@reddit
Okay but in his defense, he saw Jesus do some crazy shit so he probably thought "Oh, even if I sell him out he'll get out of this one and I get silver. Win win."
full_knowledge_build@reddit
He saw through the bullshit I think
KarlPc167@reddit
It's in his jeans
retsoPtiH@reddit
well it's mean it's been 2000 years and he's not back
Judas got his bag, slay queen 💅
it's like he played poker with carrots and still left home with some money
Cyhawk@reddit
The prophecy for the Second Coming has not been fulfilled for him to come back. There are several things required for this to happen:
Conversion of Israel to Christianity.
Defiliment of the Temple (aka the 3rd Temple, which btw is about to be rebuilt now that the pure Red Hefer was sacrificed correctly, yeah it happened quietly about 2 weeks ago. Technically according to Jewish prophecy the Son of God can now actually come to Earth once its built and may already be here/born for the first time)
The other requirements are either from Matthew (sus book) or already done such as Christians on every land.
Not to mention it could "happen at any time" after everything is done.
retsoPtiH@reddit
uhhh ok
should we like, wait for him? aprox??
Don_Sebastian_I@reddit (OP)
According to the Mormons, after his resurrection Jesus took some time to visit the native Americans
retsoPtiH@reddit
well according to Orthodox theology, the more gold you have in your altar and the more expensive your Audi is, the more Jesus somethings.. so let's see that wallet (we also take NFC payments tho)
Dd_8630@reddit
Did Judas see any high level sorcery though? Any miracles?
Cyhawk@reddit
Nope, just Matthew. Everyone else had their eyes closed.
cancerousking@reddit
Correct me if im wrong but the gospel of judas (a non cannonical text) judas was told to betray Jesus by Jesus himself
NorthDakota@reddit
There's a reason why non-canonical texts are not canon though. They are akin to fan fiction and have tons of things in them that are completely loopy or conflicting with other sources, they were written long after the other gospels, etc.
Cyhawk@reddit
Yeah, because someone in charge decided they didn't want/like said texts as they may have conflicted with something they were trying to push. It happens every time a new version of the bible comes around and has since the Torah.
Though you're prob right on the Book of Judas as it was written/appeared 100+ years afterwards. The further away from the source the more suspect they are.
Ailosiam@reddit
Judas logic: it's literally free money, he's God they can't do squat to him. They crucified him
scolbert08@reddit
Judas's real problem was he sold low and didn't wait for Jesus to rise again
endthepainowplz@reddit
Sup Jesus, I just funded your ministry, They wanted to give me thirty pieces of Silver, but I negotiated for 60. I knew you'd be back so I kept it for you. (Bonfire of Dreams track plays)
retsoPtiH@reddit
got his bag like any influencer shilling for shit they don't believe in. a true pioneer
MarkoSpas@reddit
Judas was a fool, but it’d be even more foolish to not point the finger at ourselves since we sell out Jesus every day. Jesus is king amen
Seymour_Flex@reddit
Amen
Munnin41@reddit
No he's been a very naughty boy
thegrimmreality@reddit
The only fools are the ones that believe in the bible hook, line, and sinker.
i-am_iceman@reddit
Man knew he fucked it. Committed TPK on his solo adventure. Judas sure was not smart. I think it was an opportunity that the greedy pauper took on from the reigning emperor who was looking for the heretical faction that was gaining power. Wonder if Judas ever wrote a book before he took the sudden stop.
Romans were still looking for him though, right? Its kinda crazy that no one tried to discredit Jesus instead of killing him. Another person doing the same things suddenly makes the feats Jesus conjured not so mystical. The death of a political leader is always tragic to the leader's supporters and seeing their leader painted as more human than expected is detrimental to the leader. Jesus' religion is now one of the world's largest and strongest religions thanks to the Romans.
But imagine if Jesus didn't die. Martyrdom makes the religious fervent. Sadly, Jesus died so young too. He at least had another good 10-20 years. Maybe he would have done other marvelous miracles.
lordxebec@reddit
Years ago, probably on 4chan, I saw a picture of books that were in the bible, and in the same picture, books in the bible that were banned. If anyone has this picture please send it to me. Books included most likely Book of Enoch, Judas, etc.
bigtree2x5@reddit
To be honest he probably thought it was not the son of God and was a high level wizard. He probably thought he'd lightning spell the Romans that came after him and he'd get a free cheeky 30 gold shillings or whatever. Dude was probably mortified to see that he actually ended up dying to them
orangutanDOTorg@reddit
The new interpretation is that he didn’t betray. It was part of god’s plan and he took the fall to help.
Dud-of-Man@reddit
"Can, you like, back the fuck up?"
Meowza_V2@reddit
ItS wHaT mY cHaRaCtEr WoUlD dO
Don_Sebastian_I@reddit (OP)
Is this a JoJo reference???????????
Meowza_V2@reddit
It has to be.
Ensvey@reddit
biblical murder-hobo
Meowza_V2@reddit
Classic rogue behavior
pockets3d@reddit
Just merchant guild things.
pepitobuenafe@reddit
Do you know how much you can buy in that economy with 3 silver coins
KapitanKaczor@reddit
thirty tenths of of a silver coin?
Cute-Conflict835@reddit
How do you even calculate that does everyone just have a silver cutting knife to cut the silver into little bits worth thirty tenths of a silver coin?
KapitanKaczor@reddit
>does everyone just have a silver cutting knife to cut the silver into little bits worth thirty tenths of a silver coin?
You don't?
Cute-Conflict835@reddit
Unfortunately i only have a copper cutting knife to cut the copper into little bits worth thirty tenths of a copper coin
Munnin41@reddit
A denarius isn't the least valuable coin. That'd be the quadrans or quarter as. 16 as made one denarius.
pedrokdc@reddit
30 silver coins is 30 silver coins...
tarmagoyf@reddit
Judas was following Jesus orders. Jesus knew what he came to do, told the disciples what was about to happen, and then told Judas flat out to make quick work of it. People who hate Judas have poor reading comprehension.
wishiwasakitten@reddit
All I can hear is “let me smell your skin, Jesus” meme while looking at this picture
ProShyGuy@reddit
"What's my deal? What's my deal!? I'm mother fucking Jesus Christ! This mother fucker thought he could betray me to the Romans! Well, you can't fuck with a wizard, can you!?"
DiscoMilk@reddit
I dunno, ask the writer of the story
Oaker_at@reddit
Don’t you know that Jesus was asking Judas to do it in the first place? Like that was all part of the plan.
Just watch the Netflix documentary